It’s shameful that the United States has become, under the Bush administration, a country that tortures prisoners, we argue in today’s editorial.
This is a dark stain on our country’s honor and ideals.And it’s disturbing, although not surprising, to learn this week that top White House officials, from Vice President Dick Cheney on down, were deeply involved in shaping and approving a torture policy — including giving assent to specific harsh techniques such as waterboarding, according to Associated Press.Â
148 Comments
The winner dictates the history it has always been so, this is why we must win in Iraq. For we have done more damage to this country. Then Bin Laden with a thousand planes and a thousand nuclear bombs could have done. Sadly even if Bush was impeached and convicted of ordering war crimes and crimes against humanity. It would not change it, that is why we must for the good of this country win in Iraq, even if it would mean the death of all Iraqis. How is that for putting America first?
But by all means, keep playing your little partisan games and don’t let reality get in the way!
What is winning?
Bush will be allowed to “Commute” the sentences of those who followed his orders. He wont be “Impeached” because he is leaving anyway. Congress still could, they just wont. They also knew and want his exit “Pardons”. “MOCK CONGRESS MEETINGS”. Herbert West III, west.herb@yahoo.com
Good to see that “registering” has “improved” the blog Phillip. Thanks Hank…btw…is it you or your son Nathan that posts all the porno ‘names’ that registration hasn’t affected? (There seem to be more “Pamela Anderson nude” items than before registration.)
Anyway, in the word of VP Cheney regarding torture and who ordered it…”so?”.
Waterboarding of an enemy is torture, but waterboarding of our special armed forces is standard procedure.
Only a liberal would make the distinction.
A Fox News guy being “tortured” via waterboarding.
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,227357,00.html
Learn. Think. Avoid being herded like liberal sheep.
Komrade - waterboarding is torture - whether being done BY our forces or TO our forces. Only a neocom whould claim different and that waterboarding done BY our forces is somehow OK.
Learn. Think. Avoid being herded like liberal sheep.
I’m willing to try the experiment on you. Might take quite a while, though, as Im bound to disbelieve what you say. I’ll apologize profusely if I slip and we have to buy you.
Torture is torture is torture… There seem to be fr too many posters here that dont appear to have a problem with this practice of interrogation. Like, do they watch too much of “24″??? Remember Jack Bauer nearly killing his own brother with torture?? Making it possible for their father to finish the job?? NOT good for our people in Washington, at the very TOP of the ladder!! They really should be tried for crimes.
Outlander, are you willing to be waterboarded to prove to all Wichitans how harmless it is?? I mean the REAL thing… not just a Faux Noise fake version??
Although waterboarding does not always cause lasting physical damage, it carries the risks of extreme pain, damage to the lungs, brain damage caused by oxygen deprivation, injuries (including broken bones) due to struggling against restraints, and even death.[4] The psychological effects on victims of waterboarding can last for years after the procedure
And when you consider that some it’s used on have nothing to tell…
Compound that with those who’d tell anything to have it stopped…
Gotta admit, it is good for a giggle.
Hey Fish, I still think all of our Blog waterboarding supporters should volunteer to do a demonstration down at Century II, RIGHT ON THE STAGE, with TV cameras rolling, so all of us can see how much “FUN” it is!! LOL
Hit and run posters today… hmmmm…. could be interesting!!
So at the next meet up is outlander volunteering to be the subject of a demonstration? The editors could take notes, and debunk the water boarding torture myth!
Looks like the bush admin. can do no wrong are posting in the comment section of Randy’s fine (albeit belated) editorial.
Chas, Phantom and Ghoti are confusing fun with interrogation.
I’m not for water boarding either. I’m for pie.
Atta boy Scholfield, show your flaming liberal side with yet another Bash Bush and Cheney post.
Well. I guess we will see.
I presume there is no statute of limitations on crimes such as these?
So…
The next President SHOULD pursue action against these “principals” up to and including turning them over to the World Court.
War is a terrible calamity that takes the ordinary to the level of evil and passes for need. During WW2, a Royal Navy sub sank an Axis freighter, then proceeded to machine gun the survivors. The sub commander was decorated with the highest honor possible, the Victoria Cross and eventually promoted to Admiral. In the North African campaign a squad of New Zealand infanty overran an Afrika Korps hospital killing all the wounded and the medical staff. German guards at POW Camps were hung by Allied libertors. This is the outcome of war where madness becomes the acceptable. It is not a uniquely new-con disease.
“show your flaming liberal side with yet another Bash Bush and Cheney post”
Eighty one percent of Americans feel that the country is headed in the wrong direction.
I guess 81% of Americans are flaming liberals.
I guess 81% of Americans are flaming liberals.
Perhaps a small number of whiners who keep making the same bitches over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over…
Bluejay
Crime?
List the crime please, and the authority in charge of prosecuting any such crime?
Context
Circumstances
Quantity
Severity
None of these things seem to matter to the leftists.
The truth is, waterboarding is very mild compared to many other techniques.
The truth is, waterboarding of illegal enemy combatants who are NOT covered under the Geneva Conventions does not violate any treaty with any country.
The truth is, no foreign government has the right to tell the United States how to treat our enemies, if those we capture do NOT belong to the armed forces of any other country.
The truth is, the waterboarding technique has only rarely been used, (perhaps 3 times?) and that use is said to have been successful in saving lives.
WS
Those of us in the Republican Party who did not want McCain to get the nomination might well answer that the country is on the “wrong track” — you read way too much into opinion polls.
A vote for McCain is a vote for four more years of Bush.
It’s that simple.
Dawg,
Win in Iraq to cover up the atrocities we’ve committed there? That’s what you’re saying? I’m sorry to tell you, but those atrocities are out there for everyone to see. No amount of revision of history can cover up what’s been done there, and “winning” will mean committing more atrocities. We need to admit our mistakes and get the hell out now!
Randy,
Anything can be torture. Anything.
The question is, what types of interrogation techniques do you support?
Sleep deprivation when done under supervised and monitored conditions is simply an interrogation technique.
Sleep deprivation done with no regard to the life of the prisoner and without care can be torture.
The point is that the “type” of waterboarding used could have been done many ways and was not used as torture.
It was used as an interrogation technique. It was used in only a couple of cases and those cases proved to be fruitful.
If we don’t give prisoners Cable TV there are some of you liberals who would call that torture. So forgive me when I think that your liberal use of the word is little more than you scraping up anything you can to further your attacks on Bush.
“If we don’t give prisoners Cable TV there are some of you liberals who would call that torture.”
Bullshit. That is just a disingenuous comment.
WS Clark,
LOL! Disingenuous is modifying a quote, then representing that quote as true, and when caught doing so defending said action as being ok.
If we don’t give prisoners Cable TV there are some of you liberals who would call that torture.
And then he wonders why we laugh at him. Sheesh.
Unfortunately, advocating torture is not funny.
Leaving aside the obvious uselessness of such techniques, and international law, we’re supposed to be the good guys. . .remember?
“Disingenuous is modifying a quote.”
Hey, dumbass, I did not modify the quote - get that through your thick god damned head.
Now, who is the liar?
Price, if you insist on being such a shameless jerk, here is the original link - have at it, dumbass.
http://www.bartcop.com/
WS Clark,
I didn’t say you did, but you did defend doing it. So what is the difference between doing it yourself and defending it?
You might as well have done it yourself because you obvsiouly didn’t care.
WS Clark,
Perhaps you will better scrutinize the material you get from that source.
P.S. A brief reminder, from the Eagle editorial:
The principals, before signing off on simulated drowning, slaps and other approved techniques, asked the Justice Department for an opinion providing legal cover. In 2002, then-Assistant Attorney General Jay Bybee defined torture as “extreme acts” equivalent to the pain involved in organ failure or death.
So: if doesn’t hurt as bad as organ failure or death (which would usually involve both!), then it’s not torture!
This is what you people are defending.
Here is a good article for the pro-war types to read.
Don’t bother reading it, Price, it doesn’t agree with your preconceived notions.
“The bottom line on Iraq - How much is America willing to spend to try to stabilize Iraq?”
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/24068090/
“The Baghdad duo’s somber caution contrasted with the somewhat chirpy optimism of McCain, who insisted in his opening statement that “success is within reach.” In fact, Petraeus and Crocker repeatedly suggested that if success is defined by building an Iraqi state anything close to what McCain described, it will require an even more extended American commitment, with all the physical and financial costs that would entail.”
Rage,
The technique was not useless when used against Khalid Sheikh Mohammed.
P.P.S. Nice misdirection, Nathan. But this isn’t about Clark, much as you’d like it to be!
The technique was not useless when used against Khalid Sheikh Mohammed.
You have proof of this? I doubt it.
Well, now we know Paul’s middle name.
Rage,
Give us an example of a the harshest interrogation technique you do support.
Rage,
I have just as much proof of that as you claim to do that what the CIA is torture and wrong.
“You might as well have done it yourself because you obvsiouly didn’t care.”
Well, obviously (notice the spelling) you are just a two-faced son of a bitch, Price. It’s no wonder that you are stuck on zero at your advanced age.
How long until we can set up a war crimes tribunal?
Maggotpunk
Posted April 12, 2008 at 11:18 am | Permalink
How long until we can set up a war crimes tribunal?
…………an appropriate idea!
Let’s make sure that the marine-boy is indicted too.
Give us an example of a the harshest interrogation technique you do support.
Your question presupposes that there is some correlation between “harshness” and effectiveness, which is ridiculous.
Ever seen “true crimes” shows interviewing murder suspects? Interrogation is a psychological process. You get the information out of them by tricking them, freaking them out, making them trust you, make them want to talk.
So, to answer your stupid question, yes, a large amount of mental/emotional stress may be neccessary. It depends of the interrogator’s professional assessment of the subject. Professional army interrogators (unlike the ghouls in the White House) know this quite well.
Punishment for the sake of punishment–particularly when you have a committed enemy in custody–will usually result in either nonsense, or the detainee telling you what you want to hear.
And what if they honestly don’t know ? Your creepy willingness to write-off fellow human beings ignores the extent to which perfectly innocent people have been caught up in the War on Terror dragnet. Some of them have been psychologically screwed up for life.
And as I recall, when John McCain was tortured in Vietnam, he broke, and named names–of a football team starting lineup!
How much crap information have we gotten from similar techniques?
Franklin is an illegal enemy combatants who is NOT covered under the Geneva Conventions. I know he knows SOMETHING about something. No problem, we can spirit him away for years on end and waterboard him daily. Heck, he even says it’s alright.
I wonder why the Editors didnt give us an Open Thread for today??
So far the Bush regime’s orders for torture have led to the deaths of over 140 POWs. The reich wingers here not only justify torture they justify murder.
Did you expect anything different, Maggot?
“Well, now we know Paul’s middle name.”
My thinking too Rage.
The crimes of the bush administration? That’s easy.
Going by the same standards implemented at Nuremberg, various members of the bush administration including bush himself are guilty of variously:
Conspiracy, Crimes against Peace, War Crimes and Crimes against Humanity.
Nathan says:
“If we don’t give prisoners Cable TV there are some of you liberals who would call that torture. So forgive me when I think that your liberal use of the word is little more than you scraping up anything you can to further your attacks on Bush.”
No Nathan.. It is an attack on what Bush has done to American integrity, and American military preseence in an occupied nation. And the Cable TV quip is just plain STUPID!!
I see that Doug has two registered names, “Doug and MaggotPunk.”
(chortles)
Hmmmm Imagination can be a friend, or a confusing enemy… Which is it for you, Regular?
Jeez, McCluer, how many nics have YOU had over the past two years?
Can you count that high, JM?
Regular,
You’re right. The board registration process carried over. But since everyone pretty much knows I run the Maggotpunk.com website I figured it wasn’t much of a big deal.
When the Japs do it to us in WWII, it’s torture, and they are executed for it.
When we do it to “terrorist suspects” who haven’t even been convicted of anything, it’s “protecting the American public.”
I think, as suggested above, we should have a meetup and let all the people who think that waterboarding isn’t torture to experience it first hand.
I’m betting Regular would p!ss his pants before he even got tied down . . .
Congratulations, btw, to The Eagle for coming out on the right side of this issue . . . not that it’ll change Worst. President. Ever. or the Worst. Americans. Ever. who still support him.
But for what it’s worth, you did the right thing.
We either win in Iraq or start practicing saying things like this:
“Politicians brought the Nazis to power and started the war. They are the ones who brought about these disgusting crimes, and now we have to sit there in the dock with them and share the blame!”
Don’t let anybody tell you that they had no idea. Everybody sensed there was something horribly wrong with the system.” (11/29/45) “Hitler has disgraced Germany for all time! He betrayed and disgraced the people that loved him!…I will be the first to admit my guilt.”
“I have been tricked and trapped by the Himmler murder machine, even when I tried to put a check on it…Let us explain our position to the world, so that at least we won’t die under this awful burden of shame.” (11/21/45) “I have the feeling I am drowning in filth….I am choking in it.”–(2/21/46, after watching film of atrocities).
“I joined the Party precisely because it was revolutionary, not because of the ideological stuff.” (12/11/45)….”The whole conspiracy idea is cockeyed. We had orders to obey the head of state. We weren’t a band of criminals meeting in the woods in the dead of night to plan mass murders…The four real conspirators are missing: The Fuhrer, Himmler, Bormann, and Goebbels.” (1/5/46)…”This is a political trial by the victors and it will be a good thing when Germany realizes that…”
and
“We don’t have much to say about our fate. The forces of history and politics and economics are just to big to steer.”
“It is just incomprehensible how those things [atrocities] came about…Every genius has the demon in him. You can’t blame him [Hitler]–it is just in him…It is all very tragic. But at least I have the satisfaction of knowing that I tried to do something to end the war.”
“The indictment knocked me on the head. First of all, I hand no idea at all about 90 per cent of the accusations in it. The crimes are horrible beyond belief, if they are true. Secondly, I don’t see how they can fail to recognize a soldier’s obligation to obey orders. That’s the code I’ve live by all my life.”
“When I saw the newspaper headline ‘GAS CHAMBER EXPERT CAPTURED’ and an American lieutenant explained it to me, I was pale in amazement. How can they say such things about me?” (4/11/46)…”I have only done my duty as an intelligence organ, and I refuse to serve as an ersatz for Himmler.”
“We all believed so much in him [Hitler]–and we stand to take all the blame–and the shame! He gave us the orders. He kept saying that it was all his responsibility.” 912/25/45)…”I will suffer more agony of conscience and self-reproach in this cell than anybody will ever know.” (1/6/46)…”the only thing that is impossible is for me to there [in court] like a louse and lie.”
“Hitler was a liar, of course–that became more and more clear. He simply had no respect for the truth. But nobody recognized it at first…He must have done his conspiring with his little gang of henchmen late at night. Sometimes he would call at 1, 2, or 3 in the morning.”(
“I think [Hitler] wanted the best for Germany at the beginning, but he became an unreasoning evil force with the flattery of his followers–Himmler, Goering, Ribbentrop, etc…I tried to persuade him he was wrong in his anti-Jewish policies many a time. He seemed to listen at first, but later on, I had no influence on him.”
“We are only living shadows–the remains of a dead era–an era that died with Hitler. Whether a few of us live another 10 or 20 years, it makes no difference.”
“I was given this assignment which I could not refuse–and besides, I did everything possible to treat [the foreign slave laborers] well.”
“I have full confidence in the judges, and I am not afraid of the outcome. A few of the defendants are not guilty; most of them are sheer criminals.” (10/23/45)…”All I wanted was to build up Germany industrially….The only thing they can accuse me of is breaking the Versailles Treaty.”
“The southern German has the imagination and emotionality to subscribe to a fanatic ideology, but he is ordinarily inhibited from excesses by his natural humaneness. The Prussian does not have the imagination to conceive in terms of abstract racial and political theories, but when he is told to do something, he does it.”
“I would like to sit down and write one final blast about the whole damn Nazi mess and mention names and details and let the German people see once and for all what rotten corruption, hypocrisy, and madness the whole system was based on!-I would spare no one, including myself.”
“The Jews are making a mistake if they make a martyr out of me; you will see. I didn’t create the problem; it existed for thousands of years.” (12/16/45)….”I am the only one in the world who clearly saw the Jewish menace as an historical problem.”
CapN — I might know some folks who would contribute to the costs of such a demonstration.
Congratulations, btw, to The Eagle for coming out on the right side of this issue . . . not that it’ll change Worst. President. Ever. or the Worst. Americans. Ever. who still support him.
Now: Will John McCain, who knows better, and had taken the right position, continue to skank himself out to Bush now , to hold onto the Republican base?
War is a terrible calamity that takes the ordinary to the level of evil and passes for need.
I thoroughly agree with this. And I opposed not only the Iraq war, but the hasty, arguably unnecessary invasion of Afghanistan.
You can really tell those lacking in Military experience. They actually train military personnel in mock POW camps with interrogation techniques, some “physical and psychological encounters” as they like to call them.
Of course, some of those yelling the loudest here on the blog, the worst torture they’ve dealt with is forgetting to put sunscreen on their noses right before they try to get some “rays” from the rectotorium of their favorite Liberal deity.
(chortles)
It seems to me that the theory that if you treat your enemy nice they will respect you and be nice to you just isn’t working
Hank…btw…is it you or your son Nathan that posts all the porno ‘names’ that registration hasn’t affected?
The partial solution would be to close posts after 2 weeks or so, rather than a month.
But hey–those are hits on the server! ;-)
Regular and Right Angle (one in the same person) refuse to explain why it was a war-crime punishable by death when they did it to us in WW2, but it’s just a “frat boy” prank when we do it to them.
When one wonders how the Nazis were able to recruit so many decent Germans to their cause, look no further than Regular/RightAngle.
What ever the reich-wing does is justified, even when it’s a moral abomination.
Rage
Very good!
I make no attempt to hide who I am.
However, someone stole the nic I wanted to use.
CapnAmerica
Posted April 12, 2008 at 12:37 pm | Permalink
Regular and Right Angle (one in the same person)
—————————-
Paranoia amongst certain Libs knows no bounds.
Oh yeah, I play the Easter Bunny and do part time work as the Grinch.
Capn
Definitions are important.
You can “dunk” someone under water, or you can drown him, holding them under water until that person dies.
I would say that these two things are different.
You can also pour water over that person, making that person think the worst, even when such treatment is not at all life-threatening.
I have a very easy demonstration, to get you liberals to admit that water boarding is mild:
If America had ever used burning cigars, on a terrorist, to get that terrorist to talk, would we even be talking about “waterboarding” now?
NO, we would not.
If America had ever used bamboo spinters, under fingernails, would we even be talking about “waterboarding” now?
No, we would not.
If any truly harsh method had been used, that is the only thing the media and the liberals would talk about. Waterboarding would be considered trivial, in comparison.
This waterboarding technique can be done harshly, in a way that would be life-threatening. However, the United States did it very selectively, in a controlled environment.
It was not done by the military, but by the CIA.
It was not done against members of any military chain of command, but was only used against non- uniformed criminal terrorists.
It was not done as punishment.
It was not done as a way to gain information for trial.
It was done as a way to save lives.
It did not violate the Geneva Conventions.
It was legal.
waterboarding, in the few times it was used by the United States, was also NOT life threatening.
Fine paulie.
Let’s have a meetup and you can volunteer to submit yourself to the procedure.
How about Junior volunteering for duty for his country, instead of whining about everything and asking for free handouts.
writerdog 12:03 post: Whose statement is this? The current Pope was a member of the elite Hitler Youth and I have a problem with those who claim they didn’t know what was going on inside Germany 1933-1945. Just think of how much ordinace is involved in killing 6 million+ people OFF the battlefield. Arrests, trasportation, construcion of holding stations, record keeping, feeding etc., It takes a helluve a lot and those who did not actually kill, suspected what was going on. I visited Munich a few years ago and was offered a side trip to an artists colony renown for it’s creative inhabitants. It was called Dachau. I passed.
Sursum — Are you saying you are a doubter in the historical FACT of the Holocaust???
Auschwitz, Dachau, Buchenwald… three of the biggest exterminatino centers in all Nazi Germany territories… And somebody questions if it could be done?? Geez!!
“This waterboarding technique can be done harshly, in a way that would be life-threatening. However, the United States did it very selectively, in a controlled environment.”
And you know this HOW, Rossell?
Personal contacts? Note from the VP? Ya’ heard it from Rush?
What happened at the secret CIA rendition facilities in Eastern Europe?
Did we torture at Abu Ghraib(sic)?
If waterboarding is so dang mild, why do it anyway?
Do you advocate allowing police officers to waterboard suspects in the United States?
After all, it is mild and harmless.
I swear to God I’m so sick of f’n neocons I’m ready to watch them be thrown into a meat grinder. And Obama still thinks he can work with the same people who advocate calling him a monkey. I’m ready for torture, how about we torture anyone who defiles the constitution and civil liberties of others? Perhaps we can then convince them that civil liberties are good by taking them away from them.
I know it’s a hypocritical position but honestly I don’t give a damn. They can rot and be eaten by maggots in the desert for all I care.
Dawg,
Don’t you realize that the only way to win a war that was built on false pretenses is to remove our troops immediately, pay reasonable reparations and turn the people who lied to us over to an international war crimes tribunal? Anything less, and we lose our credibility with the rest of the world.
“Regular and Right Angle (one in the same person”
CapnAmerica
Sir, you are wrong again. Ben knows who I am. Ask Ben and stop saying thing that show you don’t know what you are talking about.
Subject: Fox caught red handed. Made false video and lied about Obama’s pastor.
Listen to videos in entirety.
Subject: Fox caught red handed. Made false video and lied about Obama’s pastor.
Fox news doctored and falsified the video of Obama’s pastor Wright. Wright did not preach those words himself. He was quoting a White Man.; Ambassador Edward Peck. And he is a retired, white, career U.S. diplomat who served 32-years in the U.S. Foreign Service and was chief of the U.S. mission to Iraq under Jimmy Carter. The complete video below will show that Pastor Wright is telling his audience that “I will tell you what a white man named Ambassador Peck said”. And then he will quote Mr. Peck. And he ends by reminding his congregation “A white man said this, I didn’t say it”. Fox didn’t show that because they wanted people to think it came from Pastor Wright.
Fox news is the bottom of the barrel; Full of hate and thoroughly racist.
Here’s the evidence.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QOdlnzkeoyQ&feature=related
Political Mama,
You would support waterboarding to the unborn fetus, get off your (very low) moral high horse.
CapnAmerica,
Uniformed soldiers are protected by the Geneva Conventions. You can’t do anything to them let alone waterboard them.
The rules for how to treat a POW are quite clear.
The rules on how to treat a terrorist, not so distinct.
Nathaniel, that is really tacky to inject abortion into the discussion of torture during a war situation!! I mean, how many unborn babies, and babies, do you think our bombs have already killed in Iraq?? Hmmmm??
Chas,
Where did that video show that Fox lied or edited the video?
The complete video below will show that Pastor Wright is telling his audience that “I will tell you what a white man named Ambassador Peck said”. And then he will quote Mr. Peck. And he ends by reminding his congregation “A white man said this, I didn’t say it”.
Chas,
It is really tacky to insert some youtube video about how you think Fox lied into the middle of a discussion on torture.
Fox didn’t show that because they wanted people to think it came from Pastor Wright.
Chas,
How much of that was Mr. Peck? The video shows the Pastor making 2 quotes to him and it is not so clear that all of what that Pastor said was what Mr. Peck said.
Lets look at a transcript of what Mr. Peck said and compare it to Pastor Wright.
When you do that, you can start saying Fox lied.
Sorry — there is no open thread today…
Nathan, do you need ears as well as eyes???
READ what is in quotes… ok???
Funny how all the “sex” stuff shows up when Nathan(iel) starts posting. Hmmm?
Nathan — the video I POSTED was not edited… that was the real deal… It’s what FOX deliberately left out that shows what they are made of… Geez!!
So, now you are trying to insinuate that Wright didnt quote Peck??
Native, I dont see any sex stuff???
“…the video I POSTED was not edited”
How do you know this?
Hud, with the kind of crap you post on here, I am not even going to TRY to think about answering that flaming BS of yours!!
Chas,
Not only Fox showed the video. Almost every major network did as well. So if you are going to go after Fox, you better lump in all the others too.
no open thread,
well wish they would of had this when I was in.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5CqpEacxdS0
Chas,
From everything I can find, the only think Peck said was the “chickens coming home to roost” part.
The rest was all Pastor Wright’s words, not pecks. Peck inspried the comments, but they were Wrights nonetheless.
What is the matter Chas.? Having a bad day trying to support your words?
#
Chas
Posted April 12, 2008 at 2:20 pm | Permalink
Nathaniel, that is really tacky to inject abortion into the discussion of torture during a war situation!! I mean, how many unborn babies, and babies, do you think our bombs have already killed in Iraq?? Hmmmm??
———————————-
Sorry Chas, but Tiller hold’s the current record for unborn baby killing.
Chas,
Those that choose to hide behind babies and pregnant women are the ones who kill them.
Sorry, guys I have better things to do with my time today other than waste it on a bunch of numb nuts that already have their minds made up on EVerything…. And cannot be shown their errors even with solid, hard facts!!
Sorry for you guys!! Later!!
Chas,
Finding a random youtube video without any further research on your own hardly counts as “solid, hard, facts”
Rage,
It wasn’t a difficult question. What is the harshest technique you would support in an interrogation?
It’s really telling of your inner selves that you wingers are always so hot to justify or redefine torture. There is something inside you that is broken.
Let’s see,
Water boarding by the U.S. (CIA) has only been done three times and they don’t do it anymore.
Yet the Libs, cry, whine, stamp their feet and make it a daily headline event.
Guess the whiners and complainers just L O V E to whine and complain.
Whine on Lib-Rats…
Nathan, Wright states clearly in the video WHERE his “footnote” starts, and where the “footnote” ends…. He QUOTES from Ambassador Peck… Stresses it TWICE… Now, suppose if you dont believe that, you go do the bone dig to prove it wrong??? YOU challenged it, YOU prove it wrong!!
Besides, Nathan, I HEARD that Sermon… it was on Hallmark Channel two sundays after 9/11
And furthermore, I KNOW Dr. Wright… That’s the way he preaches… The style is referred to as “prophetic preaching”
Yo Chas,
What part of the Bible teaches about preaching the “U.S. of K.K.K. of A.?”
(chortles)
WS
There is a BIG difference in what can be done, in order to gather evidence for a trial, and what can be done, to protect the country from deadly, immediate attack.
No information obtained by waterboarding should ever be used in a trial.
However, illegal enemy combatants do not deserve a trial, in the first place. At least, not a full-blown trial on US Soil.
Chas
Every cuss word out there has been used millions of times.
It doesn’t change a thing that someone said it first, does it?
You are grasping as straws.
Pastor Wright BELIEVES what he said, and that is what matters.
That Wright might have gotten his ideas from someone else does not matter at all.
Oh yea, Peck’s statement would have been made about September 15, 2001, if you listened to Dr. Wright, he gave you the date of the Peck statement…
Here — Listen to some GOOD PREACHIN >>>>
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cdfbWSJINhg&NR=1
Obviously, James, you have no sense of the use of Irony, or Allegory… two things that are very dominant in Black Preaching in the USA….
Franklin, IF you were to quote from a section of a speech made by Heinrich Himmler, could we conclude that you BELIEVE the words you quote??? Or would you juist be quoting what somebody else said for a particular point of emphasis???
Rage,
It wasn’t a difficult question. What is the harshest technique you would support in an interrogation?
I already answered you, dummy. I support interrogation.
Physical abuse and degradation etc. are not interrogation techniques. They are banned in the Army field manual, and for good reason.
Sursum — Are you saying you are a doubter in the historical FACT of the Holocaust???
Chas, the phrasing was a bit awkward, but I’d re-read the passage. I don’t think that’s what sursum was saying.
Rather (s)he was saying that good Germans who claimed ignorance or lack of responsibility for the Holocaust cannot be let off so lightly.
After the past 7 years, I shudder to think how history will judge us . And, even worse, it’s not limited to W’s tenure. I initially supported economic sanctions against Iraq, but the death toll from their continued unrelenting punishment (under Bush I and Clinton) has largely been unknown in the West.
One person who remembered quite well: Osama bin Laden.
OK Rage… If you say so… But what I THOUGHT I was reading was that they didnt have enough logistics to do what was claimed… I could have read it wrong…
Ben knows who I am, says WryTangle.
Really? Because I know him personally along with BlueJay, CF2K, Tom, Doug, Chas, and Steven Davis.
I’ll have to ask him next time he’s on.
Somebody explain to me why some of us could keep the same names we have always used, and some had to invent new nics for registration??
Newcomer “Franklin” offers –
“…illegal enemy combatants do not deserve a trial…”
“Deserve?” “DESERVE?!”
It ain’t about what a defendant “deserves.” It’s about limiting the power of government; one of the most basic conservative concepts of governance.
Hell, did Charlie Manson “deserve” a fair trial? Not in my book. If it were left up to me he’d be taken out into the street and shot like the rabid dog he is. But even though Charlie Manson in no way “deserves” a fair trial, we have a system of government that is limited — for good reason — from simply taking someone in and dispatching with them. At least, we had that system before George WMD Bush shat on the Constitution.
I have no idea of your general political leanings, “Franklin,” since yours is a new nym on this forum. But I suspect if you’d think about it for a moment, you might not be so eager to give the government carte blanche to determine which defendants do or don’t “deserve” a fair trial.
Chas., I think it had something to do with the WE registration started some time ago. Since the names had nothing to do with the the blog NICs, there was no conflict.
And then the Blog sign on started using the same registration started weeks before. I would assume there are several Nathan’s in Wichita and someone else got to it, maybe a few weeks ago.
And, of course, someone could just be playing games by registering names they will never use just to tee someone off.
In my case Chas,
J R was not admissable. Because of the space.
I’ve had enough of the sophomoric attempts and humor corrupting it to Jr or junior.
Anyways, I kinda like BlueJay better. It suits me.
But it is ok to still call me J R. I was in that nic for a LONG time.
I would assume there are several Nathan’s in Wichita and someone else got to it, maybe a few weeks ago.
Far more likely (and common) is that several Real Cities/Wordpress blogs share the same registration database. Hence if someone’s registered “Nathan,” “Econ101″ “Max” or “J_R” on another blog, it’s unavailable anywhere.
Blogger uses gmail addresses as sign-ins these days. How big a pool do you think that is?
Of course, deliberate squatting is possible, too. But I wouldn’t assume it unless something really unusual (say, like “Monkeyhawk”) was unavailable.
I think we’re good.
Well, Blue Jay, you do know they’re going to be abbreviating your nic!
CapnAmerica
Posted April 12, 2008 at 4:11 pm | Permalink
Ben knows who I am, says WryTangle.
Really? Because I know him personally along with BlueJay, CF2K, Tom, Doug, Chas, and Steven Davis.
I’ll have to ask him next time he’s on.
==============================================
I’M ON - WHAT DO YOU WANT TO ASK ME?
Monkey
Charles Manson was a United States Citizen who was accused of crimes that happened on United States soil.
Terrorists who atttack us on foreign soil, and do not answer to any military chain of command, are illegal enemy combatants and do NOT deserve a jury trial like a Citizen would.
Very simple to understand but you refuse to even try!
Justice is justice.
Or is it, justice is justus there paulie?
I’d like to see Senators Clinton and Obama promising that their AG would investigate the preceeding administration and prosecute to the fullest extent.
BJ,
What this administration has done is not a crime against us, as much as we would like to think so, but an international war crime. Our AG doesn’t have jurisdiction to prosecute Bushco; it needs to be done by an international court with our cooperation in order to begin restoring our credibility as a nation. Unfortunately, such a court will probably not be able to impose a death penalty.
I couldn’t help but notice, Franklin, that you ignored the other points that I made.
“Charles Manson was a United States Citizen who was accused of crimes that happened on United States soil.”
So was Jose Padilla.
In trying to find Am. Ed Pecks comments about the “chickens coming home to roost” I came across this video about another Wrights comment “God damn America” It too is the full contexr of the serrmon.
My question is why if these were so easy to find have we not hear about them on the MSM?
BTW: a search of Fox news data bank does not show more then two videos of peck and neither are from after 9-11.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RvMbeVQj6Lw
JED, I admit it is not fair or just but Governments and in the end people find it easier to distort history than to do the right thing. Admit mistakes were made and make restitution maybe the right thing to do. But this is not a car accident. IN the cold clear light of day, every reason given for the invasion and occupation has been shown incorrect to say the least. No matter how it is spun, water boarding is torture under international laws and a human rights violation. Even in case law of the U.S. The President of the United States recently publicly acknowledge he was aware his underlings approved of the use and he sanctioned it.
These are actions that can not be over looked with a simple “ I am sorry”, in fact to do the right thing would enable the country to be put on trial for war crimes and be convicted. It will not be the intent that will excuse the actions. Pleading we had the best of intentions will not negate the reality of what it turned out to be the case. The homeowner may say they thought it was an intruder they were shooting. But it will be the fact they shot their child that the court would look at.
Many of you liberals believed Murtha, when Murtha prematurely attacked the “Haditha Marines” —
Those Marines have since been exhonorated.
It seems liberals are more than happy to find Bush, and the Haditha Marines “guilty” of some unspecified “crime” — but unwilling to give your own country or your own President the benefit of any doubt.
Hypocrites!
Dawg,
No, this was not a car accident; it was planned long before 9/11 by members of a neo-con think-tank that Cheney and Bush brought into the administration after the suspect election of 2K. 9/11 provided them with the excuse they needed to attempt an utterly simplistic, proudly ignorant and ammoral solution to the problems faced in the middle-east. The way they had it planned was that the invasion, and the hysteria they created to justify the war would be over and done with in a matter of weeks and by now the entire area would be democratized before criticism of its morality could set in. For reasons stated above it didn’t work out quite as smoothly as intended and now hundreds of thousands of people are dead; Bush has outbutchered the “Butcher of Bagdad!”
Maybe we all are to blame for buying what the administration sold, but you have to admit that the only masterful part of the war was the way it was shilled. Administrations have lied to us in the past, but never to the extent or as glibly as this one has. They made sure that the truth never stood a chance!
Again, this was no car accident, but what can we do now to make it right and still exist as a nation? We remove our troops as quickly as possible, hand over those who planned and executed this monstrosity to the proper international authorities and do what we can to repair the damage done. And then make certain that we never get suckered like that again!
Chas: Rage has me figured right, I was trying (in my own muddled way) to ridicule those “good Germans” who claimed to have no idea about the atrocities occuring in Germany between 1933-45.The Dachau thing was my example of their continued denial. How a killing ground/concentrated area of cruetly can now be just a “haven for artists” in one generation just blew me away, and got me mad as hell to boot. I understand before the war it was an artists colony, but no referal at all to the holocaust is unacceptable.
Terrorists, in the mind of a liberal, deserve full constitutional rights that we give to citizens of the United States for acts that are alleged to have occured on our own soil.
However, in the “case” of George W. Bush and his Administration, liberals want to deny the Bush Administration THEIR Constitutional rights, as citizens, and hand them over to a foreign power?
HYPOCRITES!
“Those Marines have since been exhonorated.”
By whom? THEMSELVES and their budddies.
Fleetklin writes that liberals want to protect terrorists.
Wrong.
But we do think that terrorists should be proven terrorists before they’re tortured.
Question: Since we don’t try the convicts in Guantanamo Prison, how do we know that they are actually terrorists?
Answer: We know they’re terrorists because they’re in the prison for terrorists, Guantanamo Prison.
Ah, that explains it then . . .
http://action.aclu.org/torturefoia/released/102405/3235.pdf
Circumstances for death: detainee died while in US custody.
Manner of death: Blunt force trauma and asphyxia.
Report details some twenty broken ribs, while the detainee was hung from his wrists. Blows were severe enough it caused hemorrage in internal organs.
Who are you going to believe?
Nathan and the other Bush suck-ups or the autopsy report in front of your eyes?
Judging by their frantic attempts to change the subject, you’d almost think the WeBlog Wingnuts were embarrassed by the Bush Administration’s direct supervision of torture. What with outlander’s airy dismissal, and ad hominem attack on liberals opposed to torture as “sheep,” and Nathaniel (is that a fancy name for Nathan?) trying every trick in the Authoritarian Follower book to create argumentative diversions, it’s pretty clear that even the Wingnuts, shameless though they are, know this is the real deal.
The Bush Administration are war criminals. And their supporters are complicit in their crimes.
Cap’N,
Silly question: OF course we should believe Nathan. Facts lie, you know.
Facts?
Do we know who is suspected of beating this Iraqi soldier?
Many of those who die, in United States stateside prisons, die at the hands of other prisoners.
Can we be sure that this man was not beaten by other prisoners for some reason?
Even if this man was beaten by someone in the United States Military, the idea that such was authorized by the entire chain of command is absurd.
“Do we know who is suspected of beating this Iraqi soldier?”
You still have yet to answer the questions, Rossell.
You still have yet to explain how YOU know all this to be true.
I guess we could just use your rationale and run all the mo th er fu ck ers through a wood chipper.
Then we could sink to the level of Saddam Hussein.
CapnAmerica,
I didn’t see anywhere on your link where it concluded that authorized torture by US forces caused the death.
Perhaps you could point that out to me?
Oh, sh!t, Nathan.
You’re telling me that somebody just decided to torture the prisoner to death on his own?
In a military prison? Run by the military? In a military chain of command?
Thanks for proving that no matter what the evidence, you’ll play the part of dumbass to defend your position.
Capn - is that the guy whose body they then stuffed into a freezer?
“Blows were severe enough it caused hemorrage in internal organs.”
Does that count as major oragn failure?
bth,
“Does that count as major oragn failure?”
No, the autopsy report stated that his genital area was undamaged.