COLUMBUS, N.M. (AP) — Illegal immigrants armed with torches, hacksaws, ladders and even bungee cords are making it around a section of the border fence hailed as the most efficient way to stop them.
In the 10 months since the section was put up, the only method federal agents haven’t seen is a tunnel - “Yet,” said Victor Guzman, the supervisory Border Patrol agent responsible for the stretch of close-together 15-foot cement-filled steel poles planted three feet into the ground.
Agents responsible for guarding the stretch of border here “almost immediately” started seeing cuts in the fence. The towering gray and rust colored posts are marked with bright orange spray paint in areas believed to have been breached, Guzman said.
Guzman, who has worked in the area for nearly a decade, said agents have found holes cut with acetylene torches, hacksaws and even plasma torches - a high-powered tool that uses inert gas or condensed air to quickly cut through steel and other dense metals.
“We see it once or twice a week,” Guzman said of the holes along the 1.5-mile stretch of fencing about 80 miles west of El Paso.
Ya, boy, this fence is lookin’ good already, ain’t it? How about that fence around Canada? Or maybe around to whole USA, including all the beaches. Hell, kill two stones with one fence: keep out the sharks and the illegals. Just how dumb can one government get?
Franking Abuse by Kansas Democratic Legislative Leadership
Recently both the Kansas House Minority Leader, Dennis McKinney, and Kansas Senate Majority Leader, Anthony Hensley, abused their nearly unlimited budget to mail items to Kansas voters. These mailings had less to do with helping inform constituents about what is going on in the Kansas legislature, and more to do with getting certain Democrats re-elected this year.
A reliable source tells the Meadowlark that House Minority Leader Mckinney will reimburse the State for postage for his recent mailings. However, the Senate Minority Leader has not made a pledge to repay taxpayers for his franking abuse, even though taxpayers paid a hefty sum for his recent needless mailings.
When the conceal and carry law was passed, proponents claimed it would bring down the crime rate…what happened? Why has the murder rate almost doubled in the past year in Wichita and other crime is up 20%?
What happened to all those “studies” that claimed that crime rates decrease in states that had CC laws?
Well guys? What excuse do you have for the FACT that crime hasn’t decreased, only increased since the passage of the law?
Chas, you repeatedly state on this thread, “the Federal Bill was pending when the Illinois Vote took place… Obama KNEW the Fed. Bill would pass… IOW, Illinois didnt NEED the bill in their Senate!!”
Check the above link to see that Obama, as chair of the IL State Senate Health & Human Services Committee in 2003, STOPPED identical Born Alive Infant Protection Act federal language from being introduced in IL.
Federal law apples mostly civil penalties. State laws apply criminal penalties. That’s why state laws are needed.
Incidentally, the identical language to federal BAIPA did pass in IL in 2005, the year after Obama left the state senate.
_________________________
Chas had one of his brain screams last night and since it was late I wanted to make sure he saw this early morning post on that thread.
WS this is for you also. All the information you chose to ignore last night. Your man Obama has no moral compass just a politicians heart.
I hope all the seats haven’t been taken on the morality I’m better than you bandwagon cuz I’m climbing aboard feeling indignant.Since were all concerned about babies,
It would be interesting to see what how many “aborted” fetuses are “born alive.” As usual, the subject is so occluded with partisan web sites (almost all pro-life) it’s hard to get any facts. It’s like trying to get to the bottom of any controversial subject on the web. However, since the maximum weight of a late second trimester fetus is 2 pounds I doubt many, if any of these fetuses could be saved no matter what was done. The majority of those that were saved would have serious problems.
Why do you think Abortion Doctors remove all but the head of the baby, when they do late-term abortions?
The reason is, that the baby is alive and if they removed the entire fetus, they would be charged with murder, so they leave the head of the baby in the birth canal, so they can “crush” it’s head.
“However, since the maximum weight of a late second trimester fetus is 2 pounds I doubt many, if any of these fetuses could be saved no matter what was done. ”
You may doubt it, but they often do. In fact, a member of my family had a baby (premature) weighting less than two pounds. Six years ago. He is fine today. Many, many, early and low birth weight babies are not only viable, but with proper care, doing well.
The documents, which were turned over Wednesday evening to the American Civil Liberties Union, focus on the 2003 death of Afghan detainee Jamal Nasser, who died in U.S. custody at the Gardez facility.
The documents detail interrogation techniques used on eight detainees, including Nasser, who were suspected of weapons trafficking.
MadMax is afraid of losing his uzi, which he uses for “deer” hunting . . . wink . . . wink. Or maybe his 1914 4″ barrel short cannon, which he uses for “crows” . . . wink . . . wink.
Personally, I think all weapons manufactured should have the serial number, barrel patterns and hammer markings sent to a federal collection agency for future id of a weapon used in a crime. I think there should be a 14 day waiting period for ALL gun purchases, including private and gun show sales.
An open letter to the General Manager, Global Warming – Europe
15 April 2008 - Haute Provence office
Dear Sir / Madam As a long time resident of the south east of France, notably the famous region called “Provence”, I would like to make a complaint.
Firstly, I am writing to the “General Manager” because I assume that there must be one. With so many “experts” in the world, someone somewhere must manage them. I assume.
I have spent the day with 2 people from the south of England who are very serious about buying a property in northern Provence. They have read most of my previously published news articles about the climate (300 days of sunshine, Provencal summer and Alpine winters), the exchange rate (which is not getting any better – I have written to Mr. Brown and Mr. Bush too and have expressed my wish for comment by return of post), and the lifestyle which, I hasten to add, seems to be the only thing that is not in jeopardy at the moment.
So, why is it, then, that my clients and I have had to endure a day of driving rain, snow and gale force winds when I would have expected 20 degrees Celsius and deep blue skies? Why is it that spring has been denied the right to break when, according to your “experts”, the planet is warming at an alarming rate and that “winter in Europe is a thing of the past”? (Incidentally, would you please also respond to the managers of the 31 ski resorts in Haute-Provence – they would be delighted to hear your explanation as to why they have to open for a good month longer than ten years ago).
Now I can already imagine your response – “we promised you 300 days of sunshine, and you’ll have them. Yes, we will send you the snow in the winter, a spectacular spring and the beautiful May to September summer”. Would you please, however, make sure that you do it when I have promised that you would?
It’s spring now. The calendar says so. if the planet really is warming up, would you please send some of that warmth down to Provence and the southern Alps, and NOW. As I’m sure you’ll appreciate, one of the reasons that people look for French property in Provence is for the predictable weather. So I’m starting to look a bit silly.
I look forward to your swift response – a warm spell would suffice.
Best Regards
Richard Rogers
Manager of the VEF Partner Office in Haute-Provence
‘beber’ Posted April 17, 2008 at 10:10 am
“since the maximum weight of a late second trimester fetus is 2 pounds I doubt many, if any of these fetuses could be saved no matter what was done.”
Oh nonsense!
Many, many babies born under two pounds, and above 24 weeks gestation can survive and do so without major later complications. The advent of lung surfactant and steroids has raised the survival rates significantly. I know I used to work in a NICU. Example:
Survival and Short-Term Outcome in Newborns of 23 to 25 Weeks’ Gestation.
Clinical Articles
American Journal of Obstetrics & Gynecology. 170(5):1266-1270, May 1994.
Holtrop, Paul C.; Ertzbischoff, Lisa M.; Roberts, Connie L.; Batton, Daniel G.; Lorenz, Robert P.
Abstract:
OBJECTIVES: We determined which factors are associated with survival and good short-term neurologic outcome in newborns of 23 to 25 weeks’ gestation.
STUDY DESIGN: We retrospectively reviewed the charts of all (n = 82) infants born alive at our hospital at 23 to 25 weeks’ gestation from 1988 through 1991. We used univariate and multiple logistic regression analysis to compare survivors at hospital discharge with nonsurvivors and those with and without good short-term neurologic outcome.
RESULTS: Survival rates were 19%, 59%, and 65% at 23, 24, and 25 weeks’ gestation, respectively. A total of 90% of survivors had good short-term neurologic outcome.
And the successes in saving these babies has improved since the date of this article.
I agree, many preemies at that weight can survive. However, how many opting for abortion can afford the high price of insurance for NICU care? Run of the mill insurance will just put the family in debt for life with a child brought into the world in that state. And imagine the idyllic life that child will experience in his childhood of poverty.
Oh Mary, you’re sounding like a broken record.
The concealed carry laws were not passed as an means of ‘bringing down crime rates’. Concealed carry permit holders are not law enforcement. Permits are for self protection, period.
IF, crimes rates, with firearms are going up it’s probably more due to the economy and the stress that puts on people. And is all the more reason for folks to obtain a permit.
Concealed carry holders haven’t contributed to any increased crime.
Figures of problems taken from the AG’s office website today;
License Suspensions: 5
2 – Charged with Carrying Under the Influence of Alcohol (neither misused firearm)
1 – Charged with Aggravated Assault and Carrying Under the Influence of Alcohol (later acquitted and license reinstated)(Notice, later acquitted and reinstated)
1 – Charged with Domestic Battery (spouse)
1 – County residence issue (license later reinstated) (notice, later reinstated)
License Revocations: 5
3 – Temporary restraining order filed against licensee (license revoked until the
restraining order is lifted) (no violation with firearm committed)
1 – Final protection from abuse order (PFA) filed against licensee (license is
revoked for a minimum of 1 year from the date of the final order)
1 – Licensee found guilty of possession of marijuana (license revoked for 5
years from the date of court disposition)
That’s a heck of a lot less violation per person that the general population for sure. And, notice NONE had anything to do with arm crime.
Wake up to the facts and not your own emotions which is causing false assumptions.
Not quite, LJ. In my heart I’m really a pro-lifer. However, being a man, I feel I really don’t have a right to expect my opinion on this to matter. I also feel some extenuating circumstances can lead others to opt for abortion–again, not MY call.
Mostly that was just a commentary on the logic of abortion vs the survivability factors. I’d say there was no conflict if everyone could afford the insurance or the NICU bills (I know, my twins were in NICU for 2 weeks!), or if those so adamant against abortion were willing to foot the bill for the preggie mommy while she gestated and took over the care of the child after birth instead of just bitching because it’s one more mouth on welfare.
I don’t think you fit in the latter category, LJ, but many on this forum do.
I see you are up to your same old tired crap as usual.
You never came back to the other gun thread as usual and now you start up in this one.
It has barely been one year since the Kansas Concealed Carry Law has been in place.
There are just over 10,000 permit holders in the entire state.
Most of the studies on crime rates took place over much more than one year after the passage of those states concealed carry laws.
Either way, you didn’t present one piece of evidence showing how Concealed Carry was bad.
The question I have is, where is the blood in the streets?
There is a flip side to this coin that you gun haters were on with all your claims about Kansas turning into the wild west, bar shootings, road rage shootings, sporting event shootings, etc…
None of that has come true either.
I think the truth of the matter is just as my old Argument and Advocacy teacher said at WSU:
That Concealed Carry doesn’t have any real negative effects and the positives are not that significant. So what is the big deal?
He was very opposed to the idea until we had a debate in class. That was his opinion after.
My comments last night weren’t about abortion but about Obama’s total disrespect for the life of a child. He didn’t want to give the ‘human’ label to the child because that would then lead to women losing the right to an abortion in his opinion. This opinion by the way was negated by the US senate when they voted this right into law.
Exactly the ruse used by the plantation owners concerning their slaves. They were chattel - property - and had no human rights. We fought a civil war over this issue and thousand of brave men gave their lifes to give right to black men and women.
Amazing that it is a black man who refuses to give rights to these most vulnerable in our society.
As we see the death penalty debated today we see many of those who say ‘let these babies die’ but think that killers have the right to life. Odd when you consider that the babies did nothing but be born and the killers took the life of others.
By the way I am not a death penalty advocate but would vote for it before allowing these babies to become garbage to be thrown out after they finally die.
ghotiphaze Posted April 17, 2008 at 11:53 am |
“I agree, many preemies at that weight can survive. However, how many opting for abortion can afford the high price of insurance for NICU care? Run of the mill insurance will just put the family in debt for life with a child brought into the world in that state. And imagine the idyllic life that child will experience in his childhood of poverty.”
Oh…okay, that sure convinces me. Let’s just kill them out of our considerate loving kindness. Yeah that’s it, we’re doing everybody a favor to just kill them.
ghotiphaze, I am genuinely glad your twins have done well. We lost two twin boy grandchildren at 24/25 weeks gestation, they were born alive and we prayed that they would live. That wasn’t to be. Their little lungs were simply to immature as she had had a membrane rupture three weeks before which probably stopped development at that stage. Having worked around it I was concerned for the outcome and impact on all of us.
Insurance, inconvenience, embarrassment, money are all valid reasons to fear unwanted pregnancy. NONE are justification to take a totally separate human life and destroy it. And outside doing so to save the mother, that’s exactly what it is.
Mary,
You position on the concealed carry issue boil down to the following.
‘Your only choice is whether you define your philosophy by a conscious, rational, disciplined process of thought and scrupulously logical deliberation - or let your subconscious accumulate a junk heap of unwarranted conclusions, false generalizations, undefined contradictions, undigested slogans, unidentified wishes, doubts and fears, thrown together by chance, but integrated by your subconscious into a kind of mongrel philosophy and fused into a single, solid weight: self-doubt, like a bail and chain in the place where your mind’s wings should have grown…’
Box, in essence, I’m in agreement with you. Once again, let me reiterate: that was mainly a commentary on the logic of abortion vs survivability factor. Face it, many (granted not ALL) of those aborted are by those who’d not do the prenatal health care, do everything counterproductive to a pregnancy, and will probably miscarry anyway. I’m not willing to take on that financial burden, and until you are, you have no right to say.
Ghot how can you say as human beings we shouldn’t care about a baby born alive and allowed to die without anyone in attendance. If you did that to an animal you would go to jail and face the outrage of the nation. What has happened to our values?
ghoti, I don’t have any good answers either. It is a tremendously difficult subject. And I agree with you, I don’t want to support a world of unwanted babies either, I can’t. I struggle to keep myself going to provide income. But it is a life, and I can’t accept the destruction of that life as being a socially acceptable alternative to responsibility.
That being said, I stay out of it except to express opinion in unimportant venues like this, never more personally unless ask directly.
Another knot in this thorny thread. My 93 year old mom who lives alone and has a mind sharper than many who post on this blog has to put clear directives over her bed and also other areas of her home to ‘not resescitate’. The law says that unless they are so directed EMS has to try to bring her back around.
The research focused on extremely premature babies, those born after 22 to 25 weeks in the womb. A full term is about 40 weeks.
Extremely premature babies face some of the longest odds of survival and often are placed on breathing machines or given other special help. They often weigh just 1.5 pounds (700 grams)and measure about 11 inches (28 centimeters) — not much longer than an average adult’s hand.
These births present parents with a difficult choice — whether to take extreme measures to save the child, possibly destined for a life of severe disability, or stop treatment and allow the child to die.
The new study focused on nearly 4,200 extremely premature infants born at hospitals across the country.
Half died within two years after birth. About 12 percent survived but had significant impairments like blindness, deafness or cerebral palsy. About the same number had even more severe physical or mental disabilities.
If you want to save the aborted fetuses that are flopping around, who do you suggest should pay for it?
Once again my reason for starting this thread was to show the mind and thinking of Obama not to start an abortion debate. I really considered voting for him and so had done a lot of research on him. This is just one of many things that scare me about him.
Regarding the mind of Obama, I encourage people to go to Stanek’s website, click on the links, and use “Find” to jump to the relevant sections of the PDF files. Unfortunately, Illinois chose to make these documents not (easily) convertable to plaintext, for some reason.
As I posted earlier, it looks like the bill in Illinois was crafted in terms to explicitly defy Roe v. Wade, and attempts to amend it were rebuffed.
This is the typical “gotcha” strategy, having less to do with medical attention for preemies than advancing a larger agenda.
Grm, sorry, as a Republican I don’t feel you have any right to judge other people’s caring about innocents dying. Sorry. Your opinion of me doesn’t faze me a bit.
Here’s a proposition to all pro-choicers and anti-abortion advocates:
Sign up for Netflix and order the 2006 documentary “Lake of Fire.”
It near the top of my queue and I’m looking forward to seeing it. And it might, just might, lead to some enlightened discussion.
Here’s the Netflix blurb:
“Using footage of procedures, exploring the murders of doctors and interviewing individuals who represent the gamut of opinion, director Tony Kaye examines the loaded issue of abortion in America in this evenhanded black-and-white documentary. Cultural critic Noam Chomsky, Operation Rescue founder Randall Terry and others lend their voices to the ongoing discussion in this blend of personal stories, political realities and philosophical debate.”
beber,
The lungs simply have not developed enough to support the baby prior to the 23/25 week of gestation with or without CPAP, ventilators, surfactant, steroids, et al. Just a few weeks beyond that the survivability rises dramatically depending on a number of factors.
I’ve held babies born prematurely, one was a co-workers, whose head I cradled in my palm and whose feet didn’t come much passed half way to my elbow while I did chest percussion to loosen lung secretions. She’s a fine health young lady today.
These babies should not be killed.
Lake of Fire is hardly an even handed look at the abortion issue.
They put well spoken liberals like Noam Chomsky up for the pro-choice side and then give most of the time to the most fringe pro-life groups to represent the pro-life side.
The pro-life movement is hardly given a equal view when the movie shows only the most violent and fringe groups which hardly compose the majority of the Pro-life movement.
PetSmart Sued for Hamster Blamed in Deaths of Three People
Thursday, April 17, 2008
A woman whose husband died after receiving a liver transplant infected with a rodent virus is suing PetSmart Inc., claiming the chain should have warned customers that hamsters can carry the virus.
The federal lawsuit alleges Thomas Magee, 54, and two other organ recipients died after transplants from a woman who had contracted a virus from a hamster she bought at a PetSmart store in Warwick, R.I.
Bruce Richardson, a spokesman for the Phoenix-based chain, would not comment on the lawsuit Wednesday but said the virus is rare.
“It’s not a common disease in pets. It’s not something that’s tested routinely by us or others,” Richardson said.
The lawsuit, filed in U.S. District Court last week, said a pathology report on Magee’s autopsy lists the cause of death as lymphocytic choriomeningitis, a viral infection of the membranes surrounding the brain and spinal cord.
The virus, which is found in house mice, hamsters and other rodents, usually causes only flu-like symptoms in humans, but can be serious and even fatal in people with compromised immune systems.
In May 2005, the Rhode Island Health Department confirmed that three people died after receiving organs that were infected with the rodent virus: Magee, a double-lung recipient from Massachusetts and a kidney transplant recipient from Rhode Island.
In her lawsuit, Nancy Magee says PetSmart had a duty to warn its customers that hamsters could carry the virus and that people with weakened immune systems could die from it.
Magee, who sued on behalf of herself and the couple’s three children, declined to comment when reached at her home. She referred questions to her attorney, Richard Bickelman, who did not return a call Wednesday.
Thomas Magee had a liver transplant at Massachusetts General Hospital on April 10, 2005. The surgery was successful, and doctors told Nancy Magee her husband would be discharged about six days later.
But the hospital postponed Magee’s release after he developed a fever and high blood pressure. On May 5, Nancy Magee was told that her husband had a virus that was causing his fever and that he would need another liver and kidney transplant as a result, according to the lawsuit. Two days later, Thomas Magee died.
Rage I have read that the sponsors of the bill offered to change the language to mirror that of the US senate bill and still Obama refused to support it.
Ghot you sure do get wound up fast. I don’t believe I judge you or anyone else unless you count my comment about Obama as judgemental. I was merely stating that in my search to be an informed voter I came across this info. I think that is what every voter should do before the election instead of moaning for the next 4 years when they are disappointed. Never could figure out why some people have such a short fuse when they are questioned about a statement they make.
I still question what has happened to a civilized country when the life of a puppy is more important than that of a newborn human.
Boxlock your story about the preemie reminded me of my husbands cousin. She was born in 1943 and weighed 18 oz. She slept in a shoe box for a long time and we have a picture of her at 1 month with her daddy’s wedding ring on her upper arm. He never weighed over 140 in his life so the ring wasn’t very big.
Amazing that she not only survived but is still alive and well today.
Study says 300,000 US troops suffer mental problems
“Unless they receive appropriate and effective care for these mental health conditions, there will be long-term consequences for them and for the nation.”
Linda having lived through the agony of friends returning from Nam with no or little help I firmly believe a major effort has to be waged to help each one of these young men and women. We don’t need another generation to check out and live under bridges.
In this we are in TOTAL agreement! Since we’re near the same age, I remember the failings from Vietnam. My husband served then and bears scars. Like you, I have many friends and relatives who do also. I wish we could learn something from our past.
Agreed ksgrm. I did everything I could do to help many returnees during the 70s. The thing that really irritated me is that so many of them were shunned by “patriotic” businessmen who would not give them jobs. Then thes same “patriots” would call me anti-soldier because I was anti-war. And now they are doing that again.
“Mental disorders are common in the United States and internationally. An estimated 26.2 percent of Americans ages 18 and older — about one in four adults — suffer from a diagnosable mental disorder in a given year. When applied to the 2004 U.S. Census residential population estimate for ages 18 and older, this figure translates to 57.7 million people. Even though mental disorders are widespread in the population, the main burden of illness is concentrated in a much smaller proportion — about 6 percent, or 1 in 17 — who suffer from a serious mental illness.
That’s approx. 13.2 million in the U.S. population.”
Hey, KsGrm — Did you ever find Obama’s NO Vote in that Illinois Senate Record from yesterday’s discussion?? You might post link when you find his recorded no VOTE!!
“Lake of Fire is hardly an even handed look at the abortion issue.”
So, once I see it, will you be willing to dialog with pro-choicers such a me on the film and the issue?
That’s all I’m asking for.
“Nathaniel” continnues –
“They put well spoken liberals like Noam Chomsky up for the pro-choice side and then give most of the time to the most fringe pro-life groups to represent the pro-life side.”
So you’re saying Randall Terry is “…the most fringe” of the anti-abortion side? Interesting.
“The pro-life movement is hardly given a equal view when the movie shows only the most violent and fringe groups which hardly compose the majority of the Pro-life movement.”
See. That’s what I’m asking for: a dialog with mainstream people you’re talking about.
Scientists Build World’s Smallest Transistor, Gordon Moore Sighs With Relief
By Alexis Madrigal
April 17, 2008 | 2:14:43 PMCategories: Physics, Web/Tech
British researchers have unveiled the world’s smallest transistor, which measures one atom thick and ten atoms across.
The newly announced transistor is more than three times smaller than the 32 nanometer transistors at the cutting edge of silicon-based electronics.
“It’s molecular electronics with the standard top-down approach which can be used in any semiconductor factory,” said Kostya Novoselov, a researcher at the University of Manchester and a co-author of a new paper on the transistor in the journal Science
And I had a friend who had twins at 6 months, less than 1.5 lbs each. They both died despite all the machines. Also had another friend who had a 24 week baby, one so small that the hospital kept blowing the baby’s veins and an amputation was going to happen before the baby died.
These kids are viable, their paper thin skin was designed only to be in the womb. You cannot tell me an abortion is WORSE than forcing these kids to live through all of that.
And there was a recent study that showed the micropreemies are very high in problems all through lives….the ones that were “LUCKY” enough to survive.
Chas
Posted April 17, 2008 at 4:04 pm | Permalink
Hey, KsGrm — Did you ever find Obama’s NO Vote in that Illinois Senate Record from yesterday’s discussion?? You might post link when you find his recorded no VOTE!!
__________________________________
Chas I would refer you to the first post that I put out today. It is very clear. Get over yourself and learn from your mistakes. Stop playing to the masses trying to be BMOC. Humble yourself.
gRANNY — YOUR POST HAD NOTHING TO SHOW A no VOTE BY oBAMA — eITHER show THE VOTING RECORD, OR ELSE STOP YOUR LYING… YOU ARER REALLY PRETTY STUPID IF YOU THINK FLAME AND SWITCH WILL WORK HERE
Chas
Posted April 17, 2008 at 6:05 pm | Permalink
gRANNY — YOUR POST HAD NOTHING TO SHOW A no VOTE BY oBAMA — eITHER show THE VOTING RECORD, OR ELSE STOP YOUR LYING… YOU ARER REALLY PRETTY STUPID IF YOU THINK FLAME AND SWITCH WILL WORK HERE
———————————–
Senate Bill 1095, Born Alive Infant Protection Act
Obama’s “no” vote in the Senate Judiciary Committee on March 28, 2001, is no longer available online.
Chas this is from Jill Staneck post if you had looked at it. Ck it out and I’ll take that apology tonight instead of dragging this out over 4 or 5 days so you can tell me the thousands of ways you were actually right.
Chas you have the bill number so tomorrow if you want to question Jill’s answer then call the state office in Springfield, IL and ask them yourself. Maybe you do need a secretary.
Chas she very clearly said it was a no vote. I don’t doubt it was. Unless you can prove otherwise then I accept her word on it. She was there. You weren’t.
Chas I have been very patient with you and thought you would begin to act like an adult. I see I was overly optimistic. I have made a large email to the blog monitor of your blog postings to me. If you wish I can send it - if not you should start acting like an adult and use language as such.
Chas I have a person who was present for the vote who said he voted no. You have nothing - I repeat nothing. Why do you keep putting yourself in these positions. Don’t you ever get tired of eating crow?
You stop Lying, and maybe I will treat you with respect.. Two can play the blog monitor game.. All of your lies about ME?? And You have the audacity to complain??
You LIE about Obama’s vote, and then you want me to apologize for cqlling you out on it?? WHY??? WHY would I apologize??
KansasNative
Posted April 17, 2008 at 7:08 am | Permalink
“Do not judge, and you will not be judged. Do not condemn, and you will not be condemned. Forgive, and you will be forgiven” (Luke 6:37).
Anf furthermore — I expect the very same you expect of me or other posters — You want links?? Well, YOU gotta post links too… Just telling a blank screen that you know somebody who was somewhere, and I am supposed to take your word on it??? Yea, sure, right!! You play the shell game much??
#Rage Posted April 17, 2008 at 1:32 pm | Permalink
Regarding the mind of Obama, I encourage people to go to Stanek’s website, click on the links, and use “Find” to jump to the relevant sections of the PDF files. Unfortunately, Illinois chose to make these documents not (easily) convertable to plaintext, for some reason.
As I posted earlier, it looks like the bill in Illinois was crafted in terms to explicitly defy Roe v. Wade, and attempts to amend it were rebuffed.
This is the typical “gotcha” strategy, having less to do with medical attention for preemies than advancing a larger agenda.
——————–
Rage posted this upthread. I am taking this as more info can be found if one wants to look.
No Hud — What it proves is that she cant or wont do the very thing she castigates me for regularly on this Blog — And now she is whining about it!! I do think she doesnt need your assistance either. She just cant seem to take as good as she gives!! Sorry… not my fault!!
If Obama voted NO — then let’s see the proof… All that has been posted here is that Obama voted Present — which is NOT a NO vote..
Sounds like Rage found some info that indicated this whole thing was a trap (my word!).
We’ve always all known whatever you choose to find can be found. If you want an opinion supported, a position affirmed you’ll be able to find it on the good ole net.
I’m not going to believe what is hearsay. That is nothing more than gossip to me.
Chas
Posted April 17, 2008 at 6:51 pm | Permalink
Hud — only you and Grm have done the name calling… you want to heed your own advice now, or later?? LOL
All the links seem to go back to this one, which now says:
Senate Bill 1095, Born Alive Infant Protection Act. Obama’s “no” vote in the Senate Judiciary Committee on March 28, 2001, is no longer available online. …
Yea, far too conveeeenient, CapN… And that was a reference to a committee vote… not a vote on a Bill before the Illinois Senate — And yesterdday, we were all told on the Blog that Obama voted Present — It just dont get better than this!!
Linda it is part of the senate record. Records disappear all of the time on the web. Surely you have seen that. Obama wouldn’t want that to be part of a dig on him. She gave the number of the bill - that can be verified in Illinois. Her testimony to the US senate was identical to the Il senate testimony. It is a matter of record and the vote was 98-0 to give human right to any baby born alive.
Chas has a real problem with admitting he might not be on top of something. I have given him link after link, the number of the bill in question - he just wants to keep hollering.
If Rage has some info that says there is a problem with Ms. Staneks post then he should put it out there.
I don’t think Chas should get by with calling other names the way he is wont to do. Vulgarities and name calling shows a lack of verbal skills I have alway been told. He should just debate a subject like everyone else does.
Okay, I did find this link which is the transcript of the proceedings leading to the vote on 1095.
What Obama says in essence is that 1. it would render all abortion illegal which would be ruled unconstitutional. He points out that this already happened to a previous similar bill and 2. it places an undue burden on doctors and hospitals to try to keep a previable fetus alive.
He states that because it will be struck down anyway like the last one was he will vote “present.”
******
So you’re wrong, Ksgrm. He voted “present” not “no” on this wrong-headed, do-nothing bill.
Hud thank you for pointing this out to me. Chas I apologize for saying he voted ‘no’ he apparently voted ‘present’ so the bill would not get enough votes to pass. My mistake.
As far as calling you names: I did say you were trying to act like BMOC and you took exception to that. Well I take exception to the names you choose to call me and I have told you this in the past. Chas my apologies you are not a BMOC.
Now the argument is still that Obama had a disregard for the lifes of newborn babies and thought it was ok to kill them.
Cap I agree he should have voted no but as the ABC article said he didn’t want that on his record.
I really find it hard to believe that it is alright with anyone on this blog to watch a baby die with no medical care even if it is marginal that they will live.
I guess I have more faith in humanity than I should have.
No Cap I was referring to the same bill being brought to the US Senate. The vote was 98 to 0 in favor of making it illegal to ignore a baby born alive as the result of an attempted abortion.
Pelosi gave a statement after the vote that it would have no affect on abortion availability.
WS the great thing about blogging is that we are all allowed to have an opinion.
Grm — i will try to remember your name, as long as you stop callibng me : : and sugar and WSClark, and any of the other names you have tried to accuse me of being… and as long as you and some of your little friends stop calling me a phony preacher!! get it??
Capn, this whole thing — the Illinois bill, the US bill, the links that proved “present” was Obama’s vote — were all brought to the board yesterday. And today, ksgrm brought the accusation back like yesterday never happened.
ksgrm used to say that WSClark and I were the same poster. I have it on good authority that he is better looking than I am and from what I read, much better at writing. So, her accusations can be pretty off the wall. Ignore them, would be my suggestion.
Ksgrm, haven’t you had enough of being lied to by the right? I mean, geez we’re always calling you on it.
They do this kind of stuff intentionally all the time. Put up a horrible bill, it gets voted down and people rail that because ONE PART of the bill said x agenda talking points, they use that to lie about why such and such politician voted against it.
You’ve been had. It was obviously an attempt to try to sway your opinion. And once again, it proves antis cant be trusted on anything.
Before you post another lie…I’ll show you one from today. THe actual article had been ALTERED by Fox news.
But I’ll show you the new one they put up. I love how they didn’t leave the original, and then put their correction. They just changed the whole article. The orignal article said that this girl intentionally got pregnant just to abort multiple times. P’d off a lot of people who heralded the original article as the “WORD”.
Susan Crane, a student at the University of Maine, Farmington, desecrated hundreds of U.S. flags by placing them on the floor of the school’s student center Tuesday for an art class assignment permitted for her “class”, the Cultural Relationship of Art and the Personal Politic. The flags were picked up after 10 hours.
Celeste Branham, leftist vice president of student and community services at the university, said that the university would allow the project again, since it is their role to spark debate.
Flag desecration is not art or debate, or even free expression. It falls under the category of “fighting words” rather than protected speech, and is still prohibited by the Code of Federal Regulations, even though leftist, activist judges try to prevent enforcement of the law.
Meanwhile, leftist, activist judges still prevent “Thou shall not kill” and “Thou shall not steal” from appearing on the walls of public schools where violent criminal gangs run amok, threatening the safety and property of everyone.
- - -
Ohio middle school teacher John Freshwater said Wednesday he agreed to remove a collage from his classroom that included the Ten Commandments, but refused to remove a Bible from his desk when ordered by the Mount Vernon School District.
Leftist organizations such as the ACLU and AUSCS might be unable to force school boards to continue suppressing Christianity in public schools, if teachers keep stubbornly insisting they have a right to free exercise of religion.
The Facts on Obama
The Fact Checker by Michael Dobbs, Washington Post
Obama has had difficulty explaining some of his 129 “present” votes in the Illinois legislature on issues such as promoting school discipline and prohibiting sex shops near places of worship. In the case of his votes on the anti-abortion legislation, however, he has had a solid alibi. The Illinois branch of the Planned Parenthood organization has given him a
“100 percent” pro-choice voting rating and depicted the present votes as part of a previously agreed strategy to provide political cover for other legislators.
Under the rules of the Illinois legislature, a present vote effectively functions as a no vote because only yes votes count toward passage of a bill. Legislators vote “present” rather than “no” for a variety of tactical reasons, including making it more difficult for their political opponents to use their votes against them in campaign advertisements.
“We worked on the ‘present’ vote strategy with Obama,” said Pam Sutherland, chief lobbyist for the Illinois branch of Planned Parenthood, an abortion rights group. “He was willing to vote ‘no’, and was always going to be a ‘no’ vote for us.”
Sutherland said Planned Parenthood calculated that a ‘present’ vote by Obama would encourage other senators to cast a similar vote, rather than voting for the legislation. “They were worried about direct mail pieces against them. The more senators voted present, the harder it was to mount an issues campaign against the senator.”
Here is a full list of Obama’s seven ‘present’ votes on issues related to abortion:
1997 Votes
SB 230 Partial Birth Abortion Ban Act. Senate approved bill 44-7, with five senators voting present, including Obama.
HB 382 Partial Birth Abortion Ban Act. House version, passed Illinois State Senate, adopted as law. Under the bill, doctors who perform partial-birth abortions could be sent to prison for one to three years. The woman would not be held liable.
2001 Votes
HB 1900 Parental Notice of Abortion Act. Bill passed 38-10, with 9 present votes, including Obama.
SB 562Parental Notice of Abortion Act. Bill passed Senate 39-7, with 11 present votes, including Obama.
SB 1093 Law to protect Liveborn children. Bill passed 34-6, with 12 present, including Obama.
SB 1094 Bill to protect children born as result of induced labor abortion. Bill passed 33-6, with 13 present, including Obama.
SB 1095 Bill defining “born alive” defines “born-alive infant” to include infant “born alive at any stage of development.” Bill passed 34-5, with nine present, including Obama.
Here is what I think of the born alive stuff. If you want the best option for an abortion, you have to accept that sometimes things go wrong. THe child should not have to live with the result of it, nor should anyone be held accountable for that.
Let the fetus die, just like they do when a WANTED premie is dying anyway. They disconnect all the tubes and let the baby die in peace and in their mother’s arms.
#
Political_mama
Posted April 17, 2008 at 9:03 pm | Permalink
Here is what I think of the born alive stuff. If you want the best option for an abortion, you have to accept that sometimes things go wrong. THe child should not have to live with the result of it, nor should anyone be held accountable for that.
Let the fetus die, just like they do when a WANTED premie is dying anyway. They disconnect all the tubes and let the baby die in peace and in their mother’s arms.
——————————
Disconnecting the tubes after attempts to revive the infant.
However, don’t infants that are born alive, but compromised regardless of circumstance, require a “do not resuscitate” (DNR) order signed by the parents and the physician in order to be removed from life support?
Nathan..you’re sounding like the broken record or are you just mimicking the poster above you?
All I said was the crime rate hasn’t dropped since the CC law was passed in Kansas..many proponents of the CC law cite “studies” (Lott and Mustard for example) that claim crime rates drop in states that have passed CC laws. Why hasn’t OUR crime rate gone down like those “studies” promised? In Wichita, the murder rate has almost doubled in the past year.
Where’s the beef guys?
Are you running away now, Nathan?
How sad…you want to have your baby killed and if she’s aborted alive, she’s allowed to “die in her mother’s arms”? What the F**K is wrong with that picture?
Think about it.
I’m here to answer your questions! I don’t care about the crime rate. The fact that the murder rate in Wichita has doubled is anecdotal. Meaningless.
What has violent crime done in Kansas as a whole?
In most states that have initiated concealed carry violent crimes have been reduced. I don’t care about that. I carry for my protection. I don’t carry to reduce the number of violent crimes.
I carry because I have a responsibility to protect my family. If violent crimes are increasing in Kansas (I doubt they are) that is even more of a reason for me to be armed.
IF we cut back even further on late term abortions to an even Smaller percentage then they are now (which is very low) then the possibility of an aborted fetus being “born” alive would be next to impossible!!
I didn’t bring any stats to the discussion. I don’t care about the stats, studies, etc.
I can find statistics to support either side of the argument. I carry to protect my life. I carry to defend my family.
If you bring statistics to the discussion that prove there are more violent crimes that supports my position.
22 murders in Wichita. So what? How many of them were perpetrated by licensed CCH people? None. How many of them could have been prevented if the victim had of been armed? We’ll never know and I don’t care.
Chas and Pmom sorry I had to leave in the midst of a good discussion. Pmom to think the right lies to me is absurd. You and Chas live in a never never land where ‘fetuses’ should be allowed to die and you think I have been mislead.
By the way Reg thanks for the other blogger link. I noticed they posted a ‘no’ vote for Obama 2 days before he voted ‘present’ on the same bill 1095. That is three sources now that have showed it that way.
Must be those confused libs that someone is lying to.
Grm, you just keep on trying… but you just cant manufacture a NO vote out of a PRESENT vote… just cant be done!! Even in that long list of Reg’s posting, there is no NO vote in the entire list!!
You just cant find it, Grm… might as well stop trying… starting to make you look terribly improper now…
Adjust your glasses, Grm >>>> I already said this:
“IF we cut back even further on late term abortions to an even Smaller percentage then they are now (which is very low) then the possibility of an aborted fetus being “born” alive would be next to impossible!!”
Wednesday, March 05, 2008
Did Obama Actually Vote For Infanitide?
I finally came across the hard facts concerning Obama’s voting record on the protection of infants here.
IL Senate 2001
* Senate Bill 1095, Born Alive Infant Protection Act
* Voted “no” in the Senate Judiciary Committee (March 28, 2001)
* Argued against the bill on the IL Senate floor (March 30, 2001)
* Voted “present” for the bill (March 30, 2001)
Chas as you can see in comittee he clearly voted against it. The coward then didn’t have the courage of his convictions and voted ‘present’ in the senate.
What a loser. Just keep backing and practice saying President McCain.
I do believe the point ksgrm was trying to make is that Obama took a position of NO in the debate both on the floor and in the conference committee.
He then did a weasel movement and voted “Present” to avoid future conflict on his position.
This would be like you or I going to a Poll place to vote, initial by our name that confirms out name and address that we indeed were present and identified, but we never stepped into the voting booth.
It’s a weasel action and says that Obama abuses the system to try to make himself look good.
# Being gay or lesbian is not a choice. (Nov 2007)
# Decisions about marriage should be left to the states. (Oct 2007)
# Homosexuality no more immoral than heterosexuality. (Oct 2007)
# Ok to expose 6-year-olds to gay couples; they know already. (Sep 2007)
# Has any marriage broken up because two gays hold hands? (Aug 2007)
# We need strong civil unions, not just weak civil unions. (Aug 2007)
# Legal rights for gays are conferred by state, not by church. (Aug 2007)
# Disentangle gay rights from the word “marriage”. (Aug 2007)
# Gay marriage is less important that equal gay rights. (Aug 2007)
# Gay rights movement is somewhat like civil rights movement. (Aug 2007)
# Let each denominations decide on recognizing gay marriage. (Jul 2007)
# Supports health benefits for gay civil partners. (Oct 2006)
# Opposes gay marriage; supports civil union & gay equality. (Oct 2006)
# Marriage not a human right; non-discrimination is. (Oct 2004)
# Include sexual orientation in anti-discrimination laws. (Jul 1998)
Reg / Grm — A NO vote in committee is of no consequence… Obama voted PRESENT on the Floor vote… the one that actually counts for something…
THUS — Grm — You sstill cannot show where Obama voted on on 1095 because he didnt vote NO on 1095 — For what I hope is the LAST time… He voted PRESENT!!
As for late term abortions, I recall asking you the other day, Grm, how many of the 50 states have NO restrictions on late term abortions… You simple gave a typical type blow off answer…
Now, ANSWER the question…
How many of the 50 States have NO restrictions on late term abortions??
IF you find any, then they should be encouraged to implement them…
159 Comments
“Do not judge, and you will not be judged. Do not condemn, and you will not be condemned. Forgive, and you will be forgiven” (Luke 6:37).
COLUMBUS, N.M. (AP) — Illegal immigrants armed with torches, hacksaws, ladders and even bungee cords are making it around a section of the border fence hailed as the most efficient way to stop them.
In the 10 months since the section was put up, the only method federal agents haven’t seen is a tunnel - “Yet,” said Victor Guzman, the supervisory Border Patrol agent responsible for the stretch of close-together 15-foot cement-filled steel poles planted three feet into the ground.
Agents responsible for guarding the stretch of border here “almost immediately” started seeing cuts in the fence. The towering gray and rust colored posts are marked with bright orange spray paint in areas believed to have been breached, Guzman said.
Guzman, who has worked in the area for nearly a decade, said agents have found holes cut with acetylene torches, hacksaws and even plasma torches - a high-powered tool that uses inert gas or condensed air to quickly cut through steel and other dense metals.
“We see it once or twice a week,” Guzman said of the holes along the 1.5-mile stretch of fencing about 80 miles west of El Paso.
http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/B/BORDER_FENCE
Ya, boy, this fence is lookin’ good already, ain’t it? How about that fence around Canada? Or maybe around to whole USA, including all the beaches. Hell, kill two stones with one fence: keep out the sharks and the illegals. Just how dumb can one government get?
Franking Abuse by Kansas Democratic Legislative Leadership
Recently both the Kansas House Minority Leader, Dennis McKinney, and Kansas Senate Majority Leader, Anthony Hensley, abused their nearly unlimited budget to mail items to Kansas voters. These mailings had less to do with helping inform constituents about what is going on in the Kansas legislature, and more to do with getting certain Democrats re-elected this year.
A reliable source tells the Meadowlark that House Minority Leader Mckinney will reimburse the State for postage for his recent mailings. However, the Senate Minority Leader has not made a pledge to repay taxpayers for his franking abuse, even though taxpayers paid a hefty sum for his recent needless mailings.
http://www.kansasmeadowlark.com/2008/04-17/index.htm
When the conceal and carry law was passed, proponents claimed it would bring down the crime rate…what happened? Why has the murder rate almost doubled in the past year in Wichita and other crime is up 20%?
What happened to all those “studies” that claimed that crime rates decrease in states that had CC laws?
Well guys? What excuse do you have for the FACT that crime hasn’t decreased, only increased since the passage of the law?
Kansas Native, this is America, Luke was wrong.
Mary, guns are cheaper than a corvette
Good one, G!
jillstanek
Posted April 17, 2008 at 5:50 am | Permalink
WSClark, Jill Stanek, holier than thou anti-choice activist here.
You want nonbiased sources for Obama’s opposition as state senator to legislation that would protect live aborted babies from being killed?
You want nonbiased sources to prove Obama was the sole state senator speaking against Born Alive legislation not one year but 2?
Is Obama’s IL Senate record good enough for you?
http://www.jillstanek.com/archives/2008/02/links_to_barack.html
Chas, you repeatedly state on this thread, “the Federal Bill was pending when the Illinois Vote took place… Obama KNEW the Fed. Bill would pass… IOW, Illinois didnt NEED the bill in their Senate!!”
Check the above link to see that Obama, as chair of the IL State Senate Health & Human Services Committee in 2003, STOPPED identical Born Alive Infant Protection Act federal language from being introduced in IL.
Federal law apples mostly civil penalties. State laws apply criminal penalties. That’s why state laws are needed.
Incidentally, the identical language to federal BAIPA did pass in IL in 2005, the year after Obama left the state senate.
_________________________
Chas had one of his brain screams last night and since it was late I wanted to make sure he saw this early morning post on that thread.
WS this is for you also. All the information you chose to ignore last night. Your man Obama has no moral compass just a politicians heart.
49 more blown up at a funeral in Iraq. I smell victory at hand!
You can bet the blast was courtesy of our friends in Saudi Arabia.
I hope all the seats haven’t been taken on the morality I’m better than you bandwagon cuz I’m climbing aboard feeling indignant.Since were all concerned about babies,
http://images.google.com/images?client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla%3Aen-US%3Aofficial&hl=en&q=dead+iraqi+children&btnG=Search+Images&gbv=2
It would be interesting to see what how many “aborted” fetuses are “born alive.” As usual, the subject is so occluded with partisan web sites (almost all pro-life) it’s hard to get any facts. It’s like trying to get to the bottom of any controversial subject on the web. However, since the maximum weight of a late second trimester fetus is 2 pounds I doubt many, if any of these fetuses could be saved no matter what was done. The majority of those that were saved would have serious problems.
I found a story about a baby born at 21 weeks at a weight of eight ounces. http://www.impactlab.com/2007/02/21/record-premature-baby/ Whether it’s b.s. or not, I couldn’t determine.
beber,
Why do you think Abortion Doctors remove all but the head of the baby, when they do late-term abortions?
The reason is, that the baby is alive and if they removed the entire fetus, they would be charged with murder, so they leave the head of the baby in the birth canal, so they can “crush” it’s head.
Wichita crime rate looks pretty flat.
http://www.wichita.gov/CityOffices/Police/Stats/Crime+Graph+Chart.htm
Kansas issued 10,567 concealed carry permits in 2007.
http://www2.ljworld.com/data/concealed_carry/
2,764,075 people lived in Kansas in 2006. There are then 0.38% of the population with a concealed carry permit.
Where’s the blood in the streets?
WOW! Look at all the BLUE states!
http://www.usacarry.com/
All those Blue states recognize the Right to KEEP and BEAR Arms!
“However, since the maximum weight of a late second trimester fetus is 2 pounds I doubt many, if any of these fetuses could be saved no matter what was done. ”
You may doubt it, but they often do. In fact, a member of my family had a baby (premature) weighting less than two pounds. Six years ago. He is fine today. Many, many, early and low birth weight babies are not only viable, but with proper care, doing well.
Does death constitute “major organ failure”?
The documents, which were turned over Wednesday evening to the American Civil Liberties Union, focus on the 2003 death of Afghan detainee Jamal Nasser, who died in U.S. custody at the Gardez facility.
The documents detail interrogation techniques used on eight detainees, including Nasser, who were suspected of weapons trafficking.
http://www.kansas.com/wireupdates/story/375297.html
MadMax is afraid of losing his uzi, which he uses for “deer” hunting . . . wink . . . wink. Or maybe his 1914 4″ barrel short cannon, which he uses for “crows” . . . wink . . . wink.
Personally, I think all weapons manufactured should have the serial number, barrel patterns and hammer markings sent to a federal collection agency for future id of a weapon used in a crime. I think there should be a 14 day waiting period for ALL gun purchases, including private and gun show sales.
An open letter to the General Manager, Global Warming – Europe
15 April 2008 - Haute Provence office
Dear Sir / Madam As a long time resident of the south east of France, notably the famous region called “Provence”, I would like to make a complaint.
Firstly, I am writing to the “General Manager” because I assume that there must be one. With so many “experts” in the world, someone somewhere must manage them. I assume.
I have spent the day with 2 people from the south of England who are very serious about buying a property in northern Provence. They have read most of my previously published news articles about the climate (300 days of sunshine, Provencal summer and Alpine winters), the exchange rate (which is not getting any better – I have written to Mr. Brown and Mr. Bush too and have expressed my wish for comment by return of post), and the lifestyle which, I hasten to add, seems to be the only thing that is not in jeopardy at the moment.
So, why is it, then, that my clients and I have had to endure a day of driving rain, snow and gale force winds when I would have expected 20 degrees Celsius and deep blue skies? Why is it that spring has been denied the right to break when, according to your “experts”, the planet is warming at an alarming rate and that “winter in Europe is a thing of the past”? (Incidentally, would you please also respond to the managers of the 31 ski resorts in Haute-Provence – they would be delighted to hear your explanation as to why they have to open for a good month longer than ten years ago).
Now I can already imagine your response – “we promised you 300 days of sunshine, and you’ll have them. Yes, we will send you the snow in the winter, a spectacular spring and the beautiful May to September summer”. Would you please, however, make sure that you do it when I have promised that you would?
It’s spring now. The calendar says so. if the planet really is warming up, would you please send some of that warmth down to Provence and the southern Alps, and NOW. As I’m sure you’ll appreciate, one of the reasons that people look for French property in Provence is for the predictable weather. So I’m starting to look a bit silly.
I look forward to your swift response – a warm spell would suffice.
Best Regards
Richard Rogers
Manager of the VEF Partner Office in Haute-Provence
http://www.vefuk.com/sections_fs.aspx?currentsection=7&subsection=newsarticle&intNewsArticleID=5338
‘beber’ Posted April 17, 2008 at 10:10 am
“since the maximum weight of a late second trimester fetus is 2 pounds I doubt many, if any of these fetuses could be saved no matter what was done.”
Oh nonsense!
Many, many babies born under two pounds, and above 24 weeks gestation can survive and do so without major later complications. The advent of lung surfactant and steroids has raised the survival rates significantly. I know I used to work in a NICU. Example:
Survival and Short-Term Outcome in Newborns of 23 to 25 Weeks’ Gestation.
Clinical Articles
American Journal of Obstetrics & Gynecology. 170(5):1266-1270, May 1994.
Holtrop, Paul C.; Ertzbischoff, Lisa M.; Roberts, Connie L.; Batton, Daniel G.; Lorenz, Robert P.
Abstract:
OBJECTIVES: We determined which factors are associated with survival and good short-term neurologic outcome in newborns of 23 to 25 weeks’ gestation.
STUDY DESIGN: We retrospectively reviewed the charts of all (n = 82) infants born alive at our hospital at 23 to 25 weeks’ gestation from 1988 through 1991. We used univariate and multiple logistic regression analysis to compare survivors at hospital discharge with nonsurvivors and those with and without good short-term neurologic outcome.
RESULTS: Survival rates were 19%, 59%, and 65% at 23, 24, and 25 weeks’ gestation, respectively. A total of 90% of survivors had good short-term neurologic outcome.
And the successes in saving these babies has improved since the date of this article.
I agree, many preemies at that weight can survive. However, how many opting for abortion can afford the high price of insurance for NICU care? Run of the mill insurance will just put the family in debt for life with a child brought into the world in that state. And imagine the idyllic life that child will experience in his childhood of poverty.
“And imagine the idyllic life that child will experience in his childhood of poverty.”
So, allowing them to die, or killing them is better? I am pretty sure that is not what you mean, just want to clarify.
Oh Mary, you’re sounding like a broken record.
The concealed carry laws were not passed as an means of ‘bringing down crime rates’. Concealed carry permit holders are not law enforcement. Permits are for self protection, period.
IF, crimes rates, with firearms are going up it’s probably more due to the economy and the stress that puts on people. And is all the more reason for folks to obtain a permit.
Concealed carry holders haven’t contributed to any increased crime.
Figures of problems taken from the AG’s office website today;
License Suspensions: 5
2 – Charged with Carrying Under the Influence of Alcohol (neither misused firearm)
1 – Charged with Aggravated Assault and Carrying Under the Influence of Alcohol (later acquitted and license reinstated)(Notice, later acquitted and reinstated)
1 – Charged with Domestic Battery (spouse)
1 – County residence issue (license later reinstated) (notice, later reinstated)
License Revocations: 5
3 – Temporary restraining order filed against licensee (license revoked until the
restraining order is lifted) (no violation with firearm committed)
1 – Final protection from abuse order (PFA) filed against licensee (license is
revoked for a minimum of 1 year from the date of the final order)
1 – Licensee found guilty of possession of marijuana (license revoked for 5
years from the date of court disposition)
That’s a heck of a lot less violation per person that the general population for sure. And, notice NONE had anything to do with arm crime.
Wake up to the facts and not your own emotions which is causing false assumptions.
Not quite, LJ. In my heart I’m really a pro-lifer. However, being a man, I feel I really don’t have a right to expect my opinion on this to matter. I also feel some extenuating circumstances can lead others to opt for abortion–again, not MY call.
Mostly that was just a commentary on the logic of abortion vs the survivability factors. I’d say there was no conflict if everyone could afford the insurance or the NICU bills (I know, my twins were in NICU for 2 weeks!), or if those so adamant against abortion were willing to foot the bill for the preggie mommy while she gestated and took over the care of the child after birth instead of just bitching because it’s one more mouth on welfare.
I don’t think you fit in the latter category, LJ, but many on this forum do.
Mary,
I see you are up to your same old tired crap as usual.
You never came back to the other gun thread as usual and now you start up in this one.
It has barely been one year since the Kansas Concealed Carry Law has been in place.
There are just over 10,000 permit holders in the entire state.
Most of the studies on crime rates took place over much more than one year after the passage of those states concealed carry laws.
Either way, you didn’t present one piece of evidence showing how Concealed Carry was bad.
The question I have is, where is the blood in the streets?
There is a flip side to this coin that you gun haters were on with all your claims about Kansas turning into the wild west, bar shootings, road rage shootings, sporting event shootings, etc…
None of that has come true either.
I think the truth of the matter is just as my old Argument and Advocacy teacher said at WSU:
That Concealed Carry doesn’t have any real negative effects and the positives are not that significant. So what is the big deal?
He was very opposed to the idea until we had a debate in class. That was his opinion after.
So where is the blood in the streets Mary?
As of 4/1/08 just over 12,000 issued. 998 in process.
My comments last night weren’t about abortion but about Obama’s total disrespect for the life of a child. He didn’t want to give the ‘human’ label to the child because that would then lead to women losing the right to an abortion in his opinion. This opinion by the way was negated by the US senate when they voted this right into law.
Exactly the ruse used by the plantation owners concerning their slaves. They were chattel - property - and had no human rights. We fought a civil war over this issue and thousand of brave men gave their lifes to give right to black men and women.
Amazing that it is a black man who refuses to give rights to these most vulnerable in our society.
As we see the death penalty debated today we see many of those who say ‘let these babies die’ but think that killers have the right to life. Odd when you consider that the babies did nothing but be born and the killers took the life of others.
By the way I am not a death penalty advocate but would vote for it before allowing these babies to become garbage to be thrown out after they finally die.
ghotiphaze Posted April 17, 2008 at 11:53 am |
“I agree, many preemies at that weight can survive. However, how many opting for abortion can afford the high price of insurance for NICU care? Run of the mill insurance will just put the family in debt for life with a child brought into the world in that state. And imagine the idyllic life that child will experience in his childhood of poverty.”
Oh…okay, that sure convinces me. Let’s just kill them out of our considerate loving kindness. Yeah that’s it, we’re doing everybody a favor to just kill them.
ghotiphaze, I am genuinely glad your twins have done well. We lost two twin boy grandchildren at 24/25 weeks gestation, they were born alive and we prayed that they would live. That wasn’t to be. Their little lungs were simply to immature as she had had a membrane rupture three weeks before which probably stopped development at that stage. Having worked around it I was concerned for the outcome and impact on all of us.
Insurance, inconvenience, embarrassment, money are all valid reasons to fear unwanted pregnancy. NONE are justification to take a totally separate human life and destroy it. And outside doing so to save the mother, that’s exactly what it is.
Mary,
You position on the concealed carry issue boil down to the following.
‘Your only choice is whether you define your philosophy by a conscious, rational, disciplined process of thought and scrupulously logical deliberation - or let your subconscious accumulate a junk heap of unwarranted conclusions, false generalizations, undefined contradictions, undigested slogans, unidentified wishes, doubts and fears, thrown together by chance, but integrated by your subconscious into a kind of mongrel philosophy and fused into a single, solid weight: self-doubt, like a bail and chain in the place where your mind’s wings should have grown…’
Box, in essence, I’m in agreement with you. Once again, let me reiterate: that was mainly a commentary on the logic of abortion vs survivability factor. Face it, many (granted not ALL) of those aborted are by those who’d not do the prenatal health care, do everything counterproductive to a pregnancy, and will probably miscarry anyway. I’m not willing to take on that financial burden, and until you are, you have no right to say.
Ghot how can you say as human beings we shouldn’t care about a baby born alive and allowed to die without anyone in attendance. If you did that to an animal you would go to jail and face the outrage of the nation. What has happened to our values?
ghoti, I don’t have any good answers either. It is a tremendously difficult subject. And I agree with you, I don’t want to support a world of unwanted babies either, I can’t. I struggle to keep myself going to provide income. But it is a life, and I can’t accept the destruction of that life as being a socially acceptable alternative to responsibility.
That being said, I stay out of it except to express opinion in unimportant venues like this, never more personally unless ask directly.
Another knot in this thorny thread. My 93 year old mom who lives alone and has a mind sharper than many who post on this blog has to put clear directives over her bed and also other areas of her home to ‘not resescitate’. The law says that unless they are so directed EMS has to try to bring her back around.
Why would the law for infants be any different?
Well! With that logic, instead of sending food aid to Third World countries we should just carpet bomb them instead.
If they can’t take care of themselves they don’t deserve to be in this world.
We shouldn’t allow them to starve to death, so lets just kill them instead.
http://www.iht.com/articles/ap/2008/04/16/america/NA-MED-US-Extreme-Preemies.php
The research focused on extremely premature babies, those born after 22 to 25 weeks in the womb. A full term is about 40 weeks.
Extremely premature babies face some of the longest odds of survival and often are placed on breathing machines or given other special help. They often weigh just 1.5 pounds (700 grams)and measure about 11 inches (28 centimeters) — not much longer than an average adult’s hand.
These births present parents with a difficult choice — whether to take extreme measures to save the child, possibly destined for a life of severe disability, or stop treatment and allow the child to die.
The new study focused on nearly 4,200 extremely premature infants born at hospitals across the country.
Half died within two years after birth. About 12 percent survived but had significant impairments like blindness, deafness or cerebral palsy. About the same number had even more severe physical or mental disabilities.
If you want to save the aborted fetuses that are flopping around, who do you suggest should pay for it?
Once again my reason for starting this thread was to show the mind and thinking of Obama not to start an abortion debate. I really considered voting for him and so had done a lot of research on him. This is just one of many things that scare me about him.
Regarding the mind of Obama, I encourage people to go to Stanek’s website, click on the links, and use “Find” to jump to the relevant sections of the PDF files. Unfortunately, Illinois chose to make these documents not (easily) convertable to plaintext, for some reason.
As I posted earlier, it looks like the bill in Illinois was crafted in terms to explicitly defy Roe v. Wade, and attempts to amend it were rebuffed.
This is the typical “gotcha” strategy, having less to do with medical attention for preemies than advancing a larger agenda.
Grm, sorry, as a Republican I don’t feel you have any right to judge other people’s caring about innocents dying. Sorry. Your opinion of me doesn’t faze me a bit.
Here’s a proposition to all pro-choicers and anti-abortion advocates:
Sign up for Netflix and order the 2006 documentary “Lake of Fire.”
It near the top of my queue and I’m looking forward to seeing it. And it might, just might, lead to some enlightened discussion.
Here’s the Netflix blurb:
“Using footage of procedures, exploring the murders of doctors and interviewing individuals who represent the gamut of opinion, director Tony Kaye examines the loaded issue of abortion in America in this evenhanded black-and-white documentary. Cultural critic Noam Chomsky, Operation Rescue founder Randall Terry and others lend their voices to the ongoing discussion in this blend of personal stories, political realities and philosophical debate.”
How ’bout it?
beber,
The lungs simply have not developed enough to support the baby prior to the 23/25 week of gestation with or without CPAP, ventilators, surfactant, steroids, et al. Just a few weeks beyond that the survivability rises dramatically depending on a number of factors.
I’ve held babies born prematurely, one was a co-workers, whose head I cradled in my palm and whose feet didn’t come much passed half way to my elbow while I did chest percussion to loosen lung secretions. She’s a fine health young lady today.
These babies should not be killed.
Lake of Fire is hardly an even handed look at the abortion issue.
They put well spoken liberals like Noam Chomsky up for the pro-choice side and then give most of the time to the most fringe pro-life groups to represent the pro-life side.
The pro-life movement is hardly given a equal view when the movie shows only the most violent and fringe groups which hardly compose the majority of the Pro-life movement.
Here ya go … death by hamster
PetSmart Sued for Hamster Blamed in Deaths of Three People
Thursday, April 17, 2008
A woman whose husband died after receiving a liver transplant infected with a rodent virus is suing PetSmart Inc., claiming the chain should have warned customers that hamsters can carry the virus.
The federal lawsuit alleges Thomas Magee, 54, and two other organ recipients died after transplants from a woman who had contracted a virus from a hamster she bought at a PetSmart store in Warwick, R.I.
Bruce Richardson, a spokesman for the Phoenix-based chain, would not comment on the lawsuit Wednesday but said the virus is rare.
“It’s not a common disease in pets. It’s not something that’s tested routinely by us or others,” Richardson said.
The lawsuit, filed in U.S. District Court last week, said a pathology report on Magee’s autopsy lists the cause of death as lymphocytic choriomeningitis, a viral infection of the membranes surrounding the brain and spinal cord.
The virus, which is found in house mice, hamsters and other rodents, usually causes only flu-like symptoms in humans, but can be serious and even fatal in people with compromised immune systems.
In May 2005, the Rhode Island Health Department confirmed that three people died after receiving organs that were infected with the rodent virus: Magee, a double-lung recipient from Massachusetts and a kidney transplant recipient from Rhode Island.
In her lawsuit, Nancy Magee says PetSmart had a duty to warn its customers that hamsters could carry the virus and that people with weakened immune systems could die from it.
Magee, who sued on behalf of herself and the couple’s three children, declined to comment when reached at her home. She referred questions to her attorney, Richard Bickelman, who did not return a call Wednesday.
Thomas Magee had a liver transplant at Massachusetts General Hospital on April 10, 2005. The surgery was successful, and doctors told Nancy Magee her husband would be discharged about six days later.
But the hospital postponed Magee’s release after he developed a fever and high blood pressure. On May 5, Nancy Magee was told that her husband had a virus that was causing his fever and that he would need another liver and kidney transplant as a result, according to the lawsuit. Two days later, Thomas Magee died.
Rage I have read that the sponsors of the bill offered to change the language to mirror that of the US senate bill and still Obama refused to support it.
Ghot you sure do get wound up fast. I don’t believe I judge you or anyone else unless you count my comment about Obama as judgemental. I was merely stating that in my search to be an informed voter I came across this info. I think that is what every voter should do before the election instead of moaning for the next 4 years when they are disappointed. Never could figure out why some people have such a short fuse when they are questioned about a statement they make.
I still question what has happened to a civilized country when the life of a puppy is more important than that of a newborn human.
Boxlock your story about the preemie reminded me of my husbands cousin. She was born in 1943 and weighed 18 oz. She slept in a shoe box for a long time and we have a picture of her at 1 month with her daddy’s wedding ring on her upper arm. He never weighed over 140 in his life so the ring wasn’t very big.
Amazing that she not only survived but is still alive and well today.
This is how the Airforce does bus., they and McCain need to be investigated.
http://www.reuters.com/article/marketsNews/idINN1747755020080417?rpc=44
Study says 300,000 US troops suffer mental problems
“Unless they receive appropriate and effective care for these mental health conditions, there will be long-term consequences for them and for the nation.”
http://www.reuters.com/article/featuredCrisis/idUSN17282413
Linda having lived through the agony of friends returning from Nam with no or little help I firmly believe a major effort has to be waged to help each one of these young men and women. We don’t need another generation to check out and live under bridges.
In this we are in TOTAL agreement! Since we’re near the same age, I remember the failings from Vietnam. My husband served then and bears scars. Like you, I have many friends and relatives who do also. I wish we could learn something from our past.
Agreed ksgrm. I did everything I could do to help many returnees during the 70s. The thing that really irritated me is that so many of them were shunned by “patriotic” businessmen who would not give them jobs. Then thes same “patriots” would call me anti-soldier because I was anti-war. And now they are doing that again.
Looking past bush, U.K.s Brown meets with U.S. presidential candidates
http://www.iht.com/articles/2008/04/17/europe/brown.php
“I firmly believe a major effort has to be waged to help each one of these young men and women.”
Yeah, great idea.
How about we stop the f***ing war?
How would that be?
Yesssssssss!!! Support our troops!! Bring them HOME!!!
Not to minimize the seriousness of the problem nor the need for intervention to help, but there’s a lot of mental illness in general in the U.S., outside the military too. I can plainly see it’s presents on this blog in some of the crack-pot posters.
This from the National Institute of Mental Health
http://www.nimh.nih.gov/health/publications/the-numbers-count-mental-disorders-in-america.shtml#Intro
“Mental disorders are common in the United States and internationally. An estimated 26.2 percent of Americans ages 18 and older — about one in four adults — suffer from a diagnosable mental disorder in a given year. When applied to the 2004 U.S. Census residential population estimate for ages 18 and older, this figure translates to 57.7 million people. Even though mental disorders are widespread in the population, the main burden of illness is concentrated in a much smaller proportion — about 6 percent, or 1 in 17 — who suffer from a serious mental illness.
That’s approx. 13.2 million in the U.S. population.”
Hey, KsGrm — Did you ever find Obama’s NO Vote in that Illinois Senate Record from yesterday’s discussion?? You might post link when you find his recorded no VOTE!!
As I noted, “Nathaniel” –
I haven’t seen “Lake of Fire” yet.
Apparently you have, since you declare:
“Lake of Fire is hardly an even handed look at the abortion issue.”
So, once I see it, will you be willing to dialog with pro-choicers such a me on the film and the issue?
That’s all I’m asking for.
“Nathaniel” continnues –
“They put well spoken liberals like Noam Chomsky up for the pro-choice side and then give most of the time to the most fringe pro-life groups to represent the pro-life side.”
So you’re saying Randall Terry is “…the most fringe” of the anti-abortion side? Interesting.
“The pro-life movement is hardly given a equal view when the movie shows only the most violent and fringe groups which hardly compose the majority of the Pro-life movement.”
See. That’s what I’m asking for: a dialog with mainstream people you’re talking about.
Scientists Build World’s Smallest Transistor, Gordon Moore Sighs With Relief
By Alexis Madrigal
April 17, 2008 | 2:14:43 PMCategories: Physics, Web/Tech
British researchers have unveiled the world’s smallest transistor, which measures one atom thick and ten atoms across.
The newly announced transistor is more than three times smaller than the 32 nanometer transistors at the cutting edge of silicon-based electronics.
“It’s molecular electronics with the standard top-down approach which can be used in any semiconductor factory,” said Kostya Novoselov, a researcher at the University of Manchester and a co-author of a new paper on the transistor in the journal Science
“A total of 90% of survivors had good short-term neurologic outcome.”
Short term outcome is not the same thing as ok.
I wish I had read more of the forum, but darn it it just takes so long to look over all the posts.
Where is there blood in the streets Nathan? I’ll show you. Our second murder in Salina in the year.
” they found a man face down in the street in the 500 block of S. 10th.”
That’s two blocks from one place where I work.
http://www.ksn.com/news/local/17811084.html
And I had a friend who had twins at 6 months, less than 1.5 lbs each. They both died despite all the machines. Also had another friend who had a 24 week baby, one so small that the hospital kept blowing the baby’s veins and an amputation was going to happen before the baby died.
These kids are viable, their paper thin skin was designed only to be in the womb. You cannot tell me an abortion is WORSE than forcing these kids to live through all of that.
And there was a recent study that showed the micropreemies are very high in problems all through lives….the ones that were “LUCKY” enough to survive.
Chas
Posted April 17, 2008 at 4:04 pm | Permalink
Hey, KsGrm — Did you ever find Obama’s NO Vote in that Illinois Senate Record from yesterday’s discussion?? You might post link when you find his recorded no VOTE!!
__________________________________
Chas I would refer you to the first post that I put out today. It is very clear. Get over yourself and learn from your mistakes. Stop playing to the masses trying to be BMOC. Humble yourself.
gRANNY — YOUR POST HAD NOTHING TO SHOW A no VOTE BY oBAMA — eITHER show THE VOTING RECORD, OR ELSE STOP YOUR LYING… YOU ARER REALLY PRETTY STUPID IF YOU THINK FLAME AND SWITCH WILL WORK HERE
Chas your cap lock key is on again. Better watch that.
Sorry bout caps… i will type with the other hand… NOW– show Obama’s NO vote, or else shut up about it, and stop your lying!!
Chas
Posted April 17, 2008 at 6:05 pm | Permalink
gRANNY — YOUR POST HAD NOTHING TO SHOW A no VOTE BY oBAMA — eITHER show THE VOTING RECORD, OR ELSE STOP YOUR LYING… YOU ARER REALLY PRETTY STUPID IF YOU THINK FLAME AND SWITCH WILL WORK HERE
———————————–
Senate Bill 1095, Born Alive Infant Protection Act
Obama’s “no” vote in the Senate Judiciary Committee on March 28, 2001, is no longer available online.
Chas this is from Jill Staneck post if you had looked at it. Ck it out and I’ll take that apology tonight instead of dragging this out over 4 or 5 days so you can tell me the thousands of ways you were actually right.
Then you cant show a NO Vote?? All you got is a vote of PRESENT??
Chas you have the bill number so tomorrow if you want to question Jill’s answer then call the state office in Springfield, IL and ask them yourself. Maybe you do need a secretary.
Chas she very clearly said it was a no vote. I don’t doubt it was. Unless you can prove otherwise then I accept her word on it. She was there. You weren’t.
Hey, wench — YOU are the one posting that Obama voted NO — when he did no such thing… The proof is your responsibility…
Chas I have been very patient with you and thought you would begin to act like an adult. I see I was overly optimistic. I have made a large email to the blog monitor of your blog postings to me. If you wish I can send it - if not you should start acting like an adult and use language as such.
Chas I have a person who was present for the vote who said he voted no. You have nothing - I repeat nothing. Why do you keep putting yourself in these positions. Don’t you ever get tired of eating crow?
You stop Lying, and maybe I will treat you with respect.. Two can play the blog monitor game.. All of your lies about ME?? And You have the audacity to complain??
You LIE about Obama’s vote, and then you want me to apologize for cqlling you out on it?? WHY??? WHY would I apologize??
KansasNative
Posted April 17, 2008 at 7:08 am | Permalink
“Do not judge, and you will not be judged. Do not condemn, and you will not be condemned. Forgive, and you will be forgiven” (Luke 6:37).
And yesterdday, you entered a post that stated quite plainly that Obama voted PRESENT… Now, Granny, who do you think you are?? Jill Stanek??
Anf furthermore — I expect the very same you expect of me or other posters — You want links?? Well, YOU gotta post links too… Just telling a blank screen that you know somebody who was somewhere, and I am supposed to take your word on it??? Yea, sure, right!! You play the shell game much??
Chas, she had provided you with what she has. If you do not believe her information then prove it wrong.
Name calling proves nothing. Well I guess it does prove you need to grow up.
#Rage Posted April 17, 2008 at 1:32 pm | Permalink
Regarding the mind of Obama, I encourage people to go to Stanek’s website, click on the links, and use “Find” to jump to the relevant sections of the PDF files. Unfortunately, Illinois chose to make these documents not (easily) convertable to plaintext, for some reason.
As I posted earlier, it looks like the bill in Illinois was crafted in terms to explicitly defy Roe v. Wade, and attempts to amend it were rebuffed.
This is the typical “gotcha” strategy, having less to do with medical attention for preemies than advancing a larger agenda.
——————–
Rage posted this upthread. I am taking this as more info can be found if one wants to look.
No Hud — What it proves is that she cant or wont do the very thing she castigates me for regularly on this Blog — And now she is whining about it!! I do think she doesnt need your assistance either. She just cant seem to take as good as she gives!! Sorry… not my fault!!
If Obama voted NO — then let’s see the proof… All that has been posted here is that Obama voted Present — which is NOT a NO vote..
Sounds like Rage found some info that indicated this whole thing was a trap (my word!).
We’ve always all known whatever you choose to find can be found. If you want an opinion supported, a position affirmed you’ll be able to find it on the good ole net.
I’m not going to believe what is hearsay. That is nothing more than gossip to me.
Hud — only you and Grm have done the name calling… you want to heed your own advice now, or later?? LOL
If nobody can show a NO vote from Obama, there’s nothing to discuss… I dont wnat to spend an entire evening on this junk…
Chas
Posted April 17, 2008 at 6:51 pm | Permalink
Hud — only you and Grm have done the name calling… you want to heed your own advice now, or later?? LOL
Chas, I do not think I have called any names.
You might want to check you post.
I just googled this, Chas, Kgrm, and Hud.
All the links seem to go back to this one, which now says:
Senate Bill 1095, Born Alive Infant Protection Act. Obama’s “no” vote in the Senate Judiciary Committee on March 28, 2001, is no longer available online. …
Well, isn’t that conveeenient?
Ksgrm, here is an article which explains why he voted “Present” on the advice of Planned Parenthood.
Obama Abortion Dodges Blessed by Planned Parenthood
http://blogs.abcnews.com/politicalradar/2007/07/obama-abortion-.html
Yea, far too conveeeenient, CapN… And that was a reference to a committee vote… not a vote on a Bill before the Illinois Senate — And yesterdday, we were all told on the Blog that Obama voted Present — It just dont get better than this!!
Hud ssays >>>>
“Well I guess it does prove you need to grow up.”
Earlier, Granny called me BMOC…
Linda it is part of the senate record. Records disappear all of the time on the web. Surely you have seen that. Obama wouldn’t want that to be part of a dig on him. She gave the number of the bill - that can be verified in Illinois. Her testimony to the US senate was identical to the Il senate testimony. It is a matter of record and the vote was 98-0 to give human right to any baby born alive.
Chas has a real problem with admitting he might not be on top of something. I have given him link after link, the number of the bill in question - he just wants to keep hollering.
If Rage has some info that says there is a problem with Ms. Staneks post then he should put it out there.
I don’t think Chas should get by with calling other names the way he is wont to do. Vulgarities and name calling shows a lack of verbal skills I have alway been told. He should just debate a subject like everyone else does.
Will you two get a room?
http://www.ilga.gov/senate/transcripts/strans92/ST033001.pdf
Okay, I did find this link which is the transcript of the proceedings leading to the vote on 1095.
What Obama says in essence is that 1. it would render all abortion illegal which would be ruled unconstitutional. He points out that this already happened to a previous similar bill and 2. it places an undue burden on doctors and hospitals to try to keep a previable fetus alive.
He states that because it will be struck down anyway like the last one was he will vote “present.”
******
So you’re wrong, Ksgrm. He voted “present” not “no” on this wrong-headed, do-nothing bill.
Too bad, he should have voted no.
“If Rage has some info that says there is a problem with Ms. Staneks post then he should put it out there.” [KsGrm]
Ummm Granny — he already DID!! You miss it?
Ummm…. Granny??? READ THIS, PLEASE??
http://blogs.abcnews.com/politicalradar/2007/07/obama-abortion-.html
no apologies will be asked for, or expected… just some truth in posting… Obama did not vote NO… I do hope ABC NEWS is good enough
Because the source is a PDF, I couldn’t cut-and-paste it.
But you can read it at the link.
Amen!! Thanks CapN!! Nuff said… Maybe we can move this thing along now…
Hud thank you for pointing this out to me. Chas I apologize for saying he voted ‘no’ he apparently voted ‘present’ so the bill would not get enough votes to pass. My mistake.
As far as calling you names: I did say you were trying to act like BMOC and you took exception to that. Well I take exception to the names you choose to call me and I have told you this in the past. Chas my apologies you are not a BMOC.
Now the argument is still that Obama had a disregard for the lifes of newborn babies and thought it was ok to kill them.
BTH Chas my screen name is KSgrm and I have asked you in the past not to call me grannie. Nuff said I am sure.
BTW, Ksgrm, you vote totals are in error if you’re referring to the Illinois vote:
On Bill 1095, 34 voted aye, 5 voted nay, and 13 voted present.
Also, the vote passed.
It was no doubt struck down, just as Obama said it would be.
Otherwise, abortion would now be illegal in Illinois.
“Now the argument is still that Obama had a disregard for the lifes of newborn babies and thought it was ok to kill them.”
Oh, bullshit.
Cap I agree he should have voted no but as the ABC article said he didn’t want that on his record.
I really find it hard to believe that it is alright with anyone on this blog to watch a baby die with no medical care even if it is marginal that they will live.
I guess I have more faith in humanity than I should have.
When you read the full transcript of this bill, it is a unapologetic effort to make abortion illegal.
That’s why Obama couldn’t support it.
He said he would support a bill with narrower language that wouldn’t make abortion illegal.
Of course, the anti-choice crowd had no interest in that . . .
No Cap I was referring to the same bill being brought to the US Senate. The vote was 98 to 0 in favor of making it illegal to ignore a baby born alive as the result of an attempted abortion.
Pelosi gave a statement after the vote that it would have no affect on abortion availability.
WS the great thing about blogging is that we are all allowed to have an opinion.
Ditto, WSClark, ditto.
Is there any reich-wing crap these reich-wingers won’t eat?
People, if it sounds idiotic, it probably is idiotic.
Ksgrm–
Well, obviously it was a different bill.
Because 1095 would have made abortion illegal, just as Obama warned.
Kds Bbs Pics Russian Child Models Ls Girls on Open thread
HEY EDITORS? WOULD YOU PLEASE DO YOUR F***ING JOB AND CLEAN THIS ILLEGAL AND IMMORAL SH!T UP?
THANK YOU,
Decent people everywhere
Grm — i will try to remember your name, as long as you stop callibng me : : and sugar and WSClark, and any of the other names you have tried to accuse me of being… and as long as you and some of your little friends stop calling me a phony preacher!! get it??
Capn, this whole thing — the Illinois bill, the US bill, the links that proved “present” was Obama’s vote — were all brought to the board yesterday. And today, ksgrm brought the accusation back like yesterday never happened.
oh and you might stop making fun of the after effects of my light stroke while you are at it… you and your friends…
Chas,
ksgrm used to say that WSClark and I were the same poster. I have it on good authority that he is better looking than I am and from what I read, much better at writing. So, her accusations can be pretty off the wall. Ignore them, would be my suggestion.
ksgrm must be referring to this act, signed by President Bush.
http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2002/08/20020805-6.html
i know — i know
#
CapnAmerica
Posted April 17, 2008 at 7:09 pm | Permalink
Because the source is a PDF, I couldn’t cut-and-paste it.
But you can read it at the link.
—————————-
Anyone can cut and paste from a pdf. It’s a simple task, really it is.
click on the SELECT tool in the toolbar to change your cursor. In most PDF’s, you can select text to cut and paste
Obviously, PDF’s that are pure graphics cannot be cut and paste and shown here, unless specially formatted, which I ain’t gonna get into.
“Obviously, PDF’s that are pure graphics cannot be cut and paste and shown here, unless specially formatted, which I ain’t gonna get into.”
[Regular]
Thats the kind CapN encountered… I ran into two of those wacko PDF files last week myself… nervewracking!!
Ksgrm, haven’t you had enough of being lied to by the right? I mean, geez we’re always calling you on it.
They do this kind of stuff intentionally all the time. Put up a horrible bill, it gets voted down and people rail that because ONE PART of the bill said x agenda talking points, they use that to lie about why such and such politician voted against it.
You’ve been had. It was obviously an attempt to try to sway your opinion. And once again, it proves antis cant be trusted on anything.
Before you post another lie…I’ll show you one from today. THe actual article had been ALTERED by Fox news.
But I’ll show you the new one they put up. I love how they didn’t leave the original, and then put their correction. They just changed the whole article. The orignal article said that this girl intentionally got pregnant just to abort multiple times. P’d off a lot of people who heralded the original article as the “WORD”.
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,351608,00.html
Obama’s Present Votes (no stance votes)
http://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2007/02/the_everpresent_obama.html
Alan Keyes on Obama’s “defended infanticide”
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tNbp2-Tm9z4
Susan Crane, a student at the University of Maine, Farmington, desecrated hundreds of U.S. flags by placing them on the floor of the school’s student center Tuesday for an art class assignment permitted for her “class”, the Cultural Relationship of Art and the Personal Politic. The flags were picked up after 10 hours.
Celeste Branham, leftist vice president of student and community services at the university, said that the university would allow the project again, since it is their role to spark debate.
Flag desecration is not art or debate, or even free expression. It falls under the category of “fighting words” rather than protected speech, and is still prohibited by the Code of Federal Regulations, even though leftist, activist judges try to prevent enforcement of the law.
Meanwhile, leftist, activist judges still prevent “Thou shall not kill” and “Thou shall not steal” from appearing on the walls of public schools where violent criminal gangs run amok, threatening the safety and property of everyone.
- - -
Ohio middle school teacher John Freshwater said Wednesday he agreed to remove a collage from his classroom that included the Ten Commandments, but refused to remove a Bible from his desk when ordered by the Mount Vernon School District.
Leftist organizations such as the ACLU and AUSCS might be unable to force school boards to continue suppressing Christianity in public schools, if teachers keep stubbornly insisting they have a right to free exercise of religion.
What other bloggers have to say on the Born Alive infant Act
http://taylorwest.blogspot.com/2008/03/did-obama-actually-vote-for-infanitide.html
The Facts on Obama
The Fact Checker by Michael Dobbs, Washington Post
Obama has had difficulty explaining some of his 129 “present” votes in the Illinois legislature on issues such as promoting school discipline and prohibiting sex shops near places of worship. In the case of his votes on the anti-abortion legislation, however, he has had a solid alibi. The Illinois branch of the Planned Parenthood organization has given him a
“100 percent” pro-choice voting rating and depicted the present votes as part of a previously agreed strategy to provide political cover for other legislators.
Under the rules of the Illinois legislature, a present vote effectively functions as a no vote because only yes votes count toward passage of a bill. Legislators vote “present” rather than “no” for a variety of tactical reasons, including making it more difficult for their political opponents to use their votes against them in campaign advertisements.
“We worked on the ‘present’ vote strategy with Obama,” said Pam Sutherland, chief lobbyist for the Illinois branch of Planned Parenthood, an abortion rights group. “He was willing to vote ‘no’, and was always going to be a ‘no’ vote for us.”
Sutherland said Planned Parenthood calculated that a ‘present’ vote by Obama would encourage other senators to cast a similar vote, rather than voting for the legislation. “They were worried about direct mail pieces against them. The more senators voted present, the harder it was to mount an issues campaign against the senator.”
Here is a full list of Obama’s seven ‘present’ votes on issues related to abortion:
1997 Votes
SB 230 Partial Birth Abortion Ban Act. Senate approved bill 44-7, with five senators voting present, including Obama.
HB 382 Partial Birth Abortion Ban Act. House version, passed Illinois State Senate, adopted as law. Under the bill, doctors who perform partial-birth abortions could be sent to prison for one to three years. The woman would not be held liable.
2001 Votes
HB 1900 Parental Notice of Abortion Act. Bill passed 38-10, with 9 present votes, including Obama.
SB 562Parental Notice of Abortion Act. Bill passed Senate 39-7, with 11 present votes, including Obama.
SB 1093 Law to protect Liveborn children. Bill passed 34-6, with 12 present, including Obama.
SB 1094 Bill to protect children born as result of induced labor abortion. Bill passed 33-6, with 13 present, including Obama.
SB 1095 Bill defining “born alive” defines “born-alive infant” to include infant “born alive at any stage of development.” Bill passed 34-5, with nine present, including Obama.
http://blog.washingtonpost.com/fact-checker/2008/02/obamas_voting_record_on_aborti.html
“Put up a horrible bill, it gets voted down and people rail…”
Sorry PM but the bill passed.
Here is what I think of the born alive stuff. If you want the best option for an abortion, you have to accept that sometimes things go wrong. THe child should not have to live with the result of it, nor should anyone be held accountable for that.
Let the fetus die, just like they do when a WANTED premie is dying anyway. They disconnect all the tubes and let the baby die in peace and in their mother’s arms.
Figures Troy Newman would idolize the flag and want to destroy all that it stands for in the first place.
#
Political_mama
Posted April 17, 2008 at 9:03 pm | Permalink
Here is what I think of the born alive stuff. If you want the best option for an abortion, you have to accept that sometimes things go wrong. THe child should not have to live with the result of it, nor should anyone be held accountable for that.
Let the fetus die, just like they do when a WANTED premie is dying anyway. They disconnect all the tubes and let the baby die in peace and in their mother’s arms.
——————————
Disconnecting the tubes after attempts to revive the infant.
However, don’t infants that are born alive, but compromised regardless of circumstance, require a “do not resuscitate” (DNR) order signed by the parents and the physician in order to be removed from life support?
Don’t know, just asking.
I would think a DNR order would be in order.. however, they are aborting a fetus… so like you, Regular, I am not sure what the law would be.
I’d think it’d be a given that if they’re there for an abortion, the DNR would be a given.
Nathan..you’re sounding like the broken record or are you just mimicking the poster above you?
All I said was the crime rate hasn’t dropped since the CC law was passed in Kansas..many proponents of the CC law cite “studies” (Lott and Mustard for example) that claim crime rates drop in states that have passed CC laws. Why hasn’t OUR crime rate gone down like those “studies” promised? In Wichita, the murder rate has almost doubled in the past year.
Where’s the beef guys?
Are you running away now, Nathan?
How sad…you want to have your baby killed and if she’s aborted alive, she’s allowed to “die in her mother’s arms”? What the F**K is wrong with that picture?
Think about it.
Mary! Darling!
I’m here to answer your questions! I don’t care about the crime rate. The fact that the murder rate in Wichita has doubled is anecdotal. Meaningless.
What has violent crime done in Kansas as a whole?
In most states that have initiated concealed carry violent crimes have been reduced. I don’t care about that. I carry for my protection. I don’t carry to reduce the number of violent crimes.
I carry because I have a responsibility to protect my family. If violent crimes are increasing in Kansas (I doubt they are) that is even more of a reason for me to be armed.
No no no you misunderstand
I’m saying, if a baby is dying in the hospital, they’ll disconnect it and let it be with the mother and let it die.
I’m not saying give the woman having the abortion her baby to hold..unless she wanted to but I highly doubt it.
I’m saying let them die though.
Hank you can’t pick and choose your stats. Either it reduces crime or it doesn’t.
And I think it doesn’t. Matter of fact, the stats would kindof support the opposite.
Something I’m sure your NRA buds would be willing to suppress…defend deflect deny.
although I’m sure that Parkay Newman will be trying to get that put into law…if an aborted baby happens to live, the mother will be forced to rock it.
IF we cut back even further on late term abortions to an even Smaller percentage then they are now (which is very low) then the possibility of an aborted fetus being “born” alive would be next to impossible!!
P-Mom,
I didn’t bring any stats to the discussion. I don’t care about the stats, studies, etc.
I can find statistics to support either side of the argument. I carry to protect my life. I carry to defend my family.
If you bring statistics to the discussion that prove there are more violent crimes that supports my position.
22 murders in Wichita. So what? How many of them were perpetrated by licensed CCH people? None. How many of them could have been prevented if the victim had of been armed? We’ll never know and I don’t care.
Egotistical self-centered motive, eh Hank??
Good evening Chas!
I’m a little confuse kind sir. My motive is to protect my family. What do you find egotistical about that?
Chas and Pmom sorry I had to leave in the midst of a good discussion. Pmom to think the right lies to me is absurd. You and Chas live in a never never land where ‘fetuses’ should be allowed to die and you think I have been mislead.
By the way Reg thanks for the other blogger link. I noticed they posted a ‘no’ vote for Obama 2 days before he voted ‘present’ on the same bill 1095. That is three sources now that have showed it that way.
Must be those confused libs that someone is lying to.
Well, now, Hank, you said you didnt care aboiut the crime rate, or the rest of the State — just you and your family…. Thats the source of my remark!!
Grm, you just keep on trying… but you just cant manufacture a NO vote out of a PRESENT vote… just cant be done!! Even in that long list of Reg’s posting, there is no NO vote in the entire list!!
You just cant find it, Grm… might as well stop trying… starting to make you look terribly improper now…
Adjust your glasses, Grm >>>> I already said this:
“IF we cut back even further on late term abortions to an even Smaller percentage then they are now (which is very low) then the possibility of an aborted fetus being “born” alive would be next to impossible!!”
Wednesday, March 05, 2008
Did Obama Actually Vote For Infanitide?
I finally came across the hard facts concerning Obama’s voting record on the protection of infants here.
IL Senate 2001
* Senate Bill 1095, Born Alive Infant Protection Act
* Voted “no” in the Senate Judiciary Committee (March 28, 2001)
* Argued against the bill on the IL Senate floor (March 30, 2001)
* Voted “present” for the bill (March 30, 2001)
Chas as you can see in comittee he clearly voted against it. The coward then didn’t have the courage of his convictions and voted ‘present’ in the senate.
What a loser. Just keep backing and practice saying President McCain.
Chas,
I do believe the point ksgrm was trying to make is that Obama took a position of NO in the debate both on the floor and in the conference committee.
He then did a weasel movement and voted “Present” to avoid future conflict on his position.
This would be like you or I going to a Poll place to vote, initial by our name that confirms out name and address that we indeed were present and identified, but we never stepped into the voting booth.
It’s a weasel action and says that Obama abuses the system to try to make himself look good.
For KFG,
On the Issues Website
http://ontheissues.org/Barack_Obama.htm
Actual Answers from Obama on the issue can be found here:
http://ontheissues.org/2008/Barack_Obama_Civil_Rights.htm#Gay_Rights
# Being gay or lesbian is not a choice. (Nov 2007)
# Decisions about marriage should be left to the states. (Oct 2007)
# Homosexuality no more immoral than heterosexuality. (Oct 2007)
# Ok to expose 6-year-olds to gay couples; they know already. (Sep 2007)
# Has any marriage broken up because two gays hold hands? (Aug 2007)
# We need strong civil unions, not just weak civil unions. (Aug 2007)
# Legal rights for gays are conferred by state, not by church. (Aug 2007)
# Disentangle gay rights from the word “marriage”. (Aug 2007)
# Gay marriage is less important that equal gay rights. (Aug 2007)
# Gay rights movement is somewhat like civil rights movement. (Aug 2007)
# Let each denominations decide on recognizing gay marriage. (Jul 2007)
# Supports health benefits for gay civil partners. (Oct 2006)
# Opposes gay marriage; supports civil union & gay equality. (Oct 2006)
# Marriage not a human right; non-discrimination is. (Oct 2004)
# Include sexual orientation in anti-discrimination laws. (Jul 1998)
I care about you too, Chas!
Well they say that I’m egotistical
I don’t even know what that means
I guess it has something to do with the way
I fit in my skin tight blue jeans.
‘night folks.
Chas what are you and Barack doing to cut back on those late term abortions? Maybe you can talk Pmom into playing on your team.
Go for it!
“I carry because I have a responsibility to protect my family.”
Protect them from what?
The consequences of social and economic injustice which YOU and your party every day inflict?
Reg / Grm — A NO vote in committee is of no consequence… Obama voted PRESENT on the Floor vote… the one that actually counts for something…
THUS — Grm — You sstill cannot show where Obama voted on on 1095 because he didnt vote NO on 1095 — For what I hope is the LAST time… He voted PRESENT!!
As for late term abortions, I recall asking you the other day, Grm, how many of the 50 states have NO restrictions on late term abortions… You simple gave a typical type blow off answer…
Now, ANSWER the question…
How many of the 50 States have NO restrictions on late term abortions??
IF you find any, then they should be encouraged to implement them…