“The search revealed that a soaring white limestone temple at the ranch held a bed where officials believe underage girls were required to consummate their spiritual marriages to much older men”
The age of consent in Texas is 17 {Texas Penal Code Section 21.11}. However , “…It is an affirmative defense to prosecution under this section that the actor…was not more than three years older than the victim and of the opposite sex…(and) did not use duress, force, or a threat against the victim at the time of the offence” and is not a registered sex offender {Section 21.11(b)}.
What is kinky about a bed? What do you expect them to use - the floor?
My first thought is this is great sensationalism by the press. On the other hand, Sol has good questions we need answered.
Remember the Waco. Our government under Clinton/Reno went after a religion. Maybe this is more of the same?
BTW, before it starts: I do not condone child abuse. If convicted, I hope the adult men AND women responsible for such are sentenced to the fullest extent of the law. In Louisiana that could mean the death penalty. Not sure on Texas law.
Report: Sadr Movement Largest Humanitarian Organization in Iraq
A new report from Refugees International says the Iraqi government has failed to respond to the needs of an estimated 2.7 million internal refugees and in turn militia groups have moved in to fill the void. Refugees International says the largest humanitarian organization in Iraq is now the Sadr movement affiliated with Shiite cleric, Moqtada Al Sadr, a fierce critic of the U.S. occupation. Sadr has set up a program modeled on Hezbollah’s work in Lebanon to offer shelter, food and non-food items to hundreds of thousands of Shiites in Iraq.
At present, the only evidence made public that anything is happening at the cult center is:
1. A bed in the temple.
2. A strand of hair.
3. The word of an informant.
This is a very recent quote from a world leader. Any guesses?
“Four or five years ago, a suspicious event occurred in New York. A building collapsed and they said that 3,000 people had been killed but never published their names,”
Jimmy Carter: “I don’t think it is possible to have an ultimate peace agreement here without the involvement of Syria. The Golan Heights issue has to be resolved. Syria has to be friendly toward Israel, not an enemy. And I don’t think it’s possible without involving Hamas. I don’t care if Hamas represents 10 percent of the Palestinian people or 42 percent or 44 percent. It doesn’t matter to me. But to have them completely excluded even from conversations or consultations, I think is counterproductive.”
_
_
On Tuesday Jimmy Carter laid a wreath at the grave of Yasser Arafat and met with a leading figure in Hamas. Carter is hoping to meet with Hamas leader Khalid Meshaal soon in Damascus. Carter wanted to visit Gaza but Israeli officials denied him entry. Carter’s trip was been widely criticized in Israel and Washington. Democratic Congressman Howard Berman – the new chair of the House Foreign Affairs Committee – accused Carter of undermining U.S. policy. Hamas officials have welcomed Carter’s trip.
On an Open Thread a day or two ago I posted the URL for the Deseret News (of Salt Lake) that included lots of comments from self-described Mormons. While specifying they are LDS (mainstream Mormons) and not FLDS (the Jessups cult), many were sympathetic to the polygamy, forced marriages, and child rape of the Texas cult.
David Koresch’s outfit was the Manson Family with Bible (instead of Beatle) study.
But for Cons such as “American_Way,” Waco is tantamount to martyrdom.
Public deflowering of 12-year-olds in a “temple” has become “American_Way’s” cause du jour.
Sometimes I wonder why we even bother discussing issues with Cons.
It’s like they all go home at night to Bizzaro Lois.
#
outlander
Posted April 16, 2008 at 9:04 am | Permalink
This is a very recent quote from a world leader. Any guesses?
“Four or five years ago, a suspicious event occurred in New York. A building collapsed and they said that 3,000 people had been killed but never published their names,”
============
#
bth
Posted April 16, 2008 at 9:06 am | Permalink
yep - Ahmadenijad is ranting again.
——-
We have a winner. Can’t put much past Ben.
But Ahmadenijad is getting outdone this morning by CapnA and his irrational rants.
Haven’t really followed the whole polygamist business, but heard a constitutional law attorney on NPR. Seems if the removals were really based on nothing more than an anonymous phone call from a girl they can’t find, the government could have some rough sledding ahead, as anonymous phone tip + guilt-by-association (i.e. associated with Warren Jeffs) does not, by itself, constitute probable cause.
Does anyone know if there was a warrant served? Who the judge was that signed it? Could this be another Patriot Act fiasco?
If they went in w/o a warrant, doesn’t that make all the evidence they uncover inadmissible?
You know, as off track as the country has become – read Petraeus not knowing that he needs congressional approval before he bombs Iran – and using the Patriot Act to bust a governor for getting some high priced nookie – isn’t it about time we went back to that constitution thingy and start behaving properly?
You know, as off track as the country has become – read Petraeus not knowing that he needs congressional approval before he bombs Iran – and using the Patriot Act to bust a governor for getting some high priced nookie – isn’t it about time we went back to that constitution thingy and start behaving properly?
“No, I don’t know his real name, but you can probably track him down by IP. I think he lives in Michigan. The Patriot Act covers it? Great, and thank you, too, Agent Smith!”
“Haven’t really followed the whole polygamist business, but heard a constitutional law attorney on NPR. Seems if the removals were really based on nothing more than an anonymous phone call from a girl they can’t find, the government could have some rough sledding ahead, as anonymous phone tip + guilt-by-association (i.e. associated with Warren Jeffs) does not, by itself, constitute probable cause.” — Rage
And all evidence uncovered would be “fruit of the poisened tree.” However, due to the hysteria in this country about sex, I don’t think the courts would rule for the cult, thus removing for all time one more crucial buttress of the 4th amendment.
The crucial question may be: “was the informant reliable.” Because he only informed law enforcement that the bed in the temple was used to break in iniatiates AFTER it was discovered.
Texas law enforcement is frequently bass-ackwards.
Seems to me more logical to remove all the older men from the FLDS compound rather than the kids and moms.
They’re the ones who publicly boink 12-year-old girls as a “temple rite.”
And then it occurs to me:
Perhaps Osama bin Laden’s version of Islam is comparable to Warren Jeff’s version of Christianity.
All my life, CONs have leveraged fear in their quest for power. Dick Nixon and Joe McCarthy vs. the “Communists,” George Wallace and Strom Thurmond vs. the Negroes, George WMD Bush vs. Saddam Hussein.
Come up with a bogeyman and promise protection from him, and you’ll get the fraidy-cat vote (which is always dominated by the CONservatives).
Warren Jeffs conjured up a theology that somehow justifies fuc#ing Brownie Scouts.
And look at those who run to his defense: “American_Way,” “outlander,” “SolDevVB,” and the usual motley crew of CONservatives.
McCain “Family Recipes” Lifted from the Food Network
Posted April 14, 2008 | 10:30 PM (EST)
It took less than 12 hours from the time the media caught wind of Cindy McCain’s recipe theft for John McCain’s campaign website to scrub away the offending pages (screen-captured below). That’s 12 hours more than it took Cindy to come up with the recipes… (In the meantime, you can still see the listing of recipes as it originally appeared on the campaign website through the Google cache.)
It also turns out that Mrs. McCain submitted “her” Passion Fruit Mousse recipe to the New York Sun for an article that ran on January 16th. Just like on the McCain campaign site, there is no sourcing other than McCain herself…
CNN (and TMZ) are now reporting that Recipegate was the work of an intern, and that according to McCain’s campaign, the whole thing is a “low-level unpaid staff debacle.”
Personally, I’m not sure how an intern can be responsible for messing up the McCain “family” recipes. Did the intern lose Cindy’s recipe box only to haphazardly try to replace them with Food Network recipes? If only we could all steal and lie and lay it off on the unpaid help.
I have a copy of a book I wanted to offer to anyone interested in reading it. It’s “Under the Banner of Heaven: A Story of Violent Faith” by Jon Krakauer. It’s about the more fringe elements of the Mormon religion and the fundamentalist cults who still practice Polygamy and more. From a review written of this book: “As for Jon Krakauer’s book, it certainly has given me empathy for the vast majority of wonderful Muslims in the world who despise the freakish members of Al Qaeda, but are too often associated with them.” Not only is the book full of history about the Mormon religion but it gives one pause to think of the radical element of religions and how they DON’T and SHOULDN’T represent each person of that religion.
I went looking for it this morning and maybe I loaned it to my son-in-law, maybe I just can’t find it because I have TOO MANY books and don’t keep them organized!
So the offer holds. If anyone would like to read the book I will find it and it’s yours. I might have to ask you to come over and help me find it…
Sol, the way I understand from my limited knowlege on the thing (like we’ll really know which side is lying the hardest!), it seems the authorities DIDN’T dot i’s or cross t’s (I know, apostropes don’t belong, but it reads better), but at least it was stopped. I don’t believe any criminal CONVICTIONS will follow, and you know everyone involved will be closely watched.
Fish, if law enforcement screwed up on this one, all it will do is push this Mormon Sect further “underground” — aallowing them to continue in their crazy belief systems — and raping and forcing more young females into sexual/marital(?) unions!! Terrible miscarriage of justice!!
***********************************************
“It was this information, together with other details, that prompted a judge to issue a second search warrant authorizing authorities to search for any and all records regarding the births of children to mothers under 17, parental information, photographs (especially family portraits), family Bibles or books showing marriages and birth information, fingerprints and hair and blood samples of men and women, plus any device capable of storing images, such as computer drives, DVDs, videos, video cameras and cell phones.
The first warrant only authorized authorities to locate evidence to help them identify a 16-year-old girl, whose calls to a family shelter claiming physical and sexual abuse prompted the raid and other court orders that eventually led to all 416 children taken from the YFZ Ranch in Eldorado.”
It still doesn’t state whether taking the children was legal or not. They might have consulted CPS or some such. Other than that and separating the mothers and children, it looks like they played by the rules. Let the trials begin.
I see your point, Chas. But with like everything tighty-righty, for every one thing you find out, there’s many, many more they’re hiding better.
(We didn’t do it…ok, we did it some but we won’t do it anymore…ok, we did it some more and harder, but we’re not doing the things you haven’t caught us at yet…ok, we’re doing that, too, but we’re allowed because we’re Bushco)
It is amazing how an event like this is drawn into a battle between parties. How you can politicize this event is beyond me. Seems to me, the more left leaning bloggers are just so inclined.
“Fish, if law enforcement screwed up on this one, all it will do is push this Mormon Sect further “underground” — aallowing them to continue in their crazy belief systems — and raping and forcing more young females into sexual/marital(?) unions!! Terrible miscarriage of justice!!” — Chas.
Sol, I agree, I lean to the left (also hang to the left *ducks*), but I’m even more ‘anti-organized-religion’ on this thing.
And as wacky, zany, misinformed and delusional as Mormons are (and I know a double handful of ‘em), you have to give them credit anyway for their perserverance. You may remember a previous post I made lauding their tenacity of developing swamp/scrubland/desert into a working, thriving community before the god-fearing ‘real’ christians came in to murder/burn them out forcing them to start anew farther west.
In May 1992, Chief Deputy Daniel Weyenberg of the McLennan County Sheriff’s Department called the ATF notifying that his office had been contacted by the local United Parcel Service regarding a driver seeing a package that had broken open on delivery to the Branch Davidian residence, revealing that it contained firearms, inert grenade casings, and black powder. On June 9, 1992 a formal investigation was opened and a week later it was classified as “sensitive, thereby calling for a high degree of oversight from both Houston and Headquarters” (italics on the original).[12][13]
The documentary Inside Waco claims that the investigation started when in 1992 the ATF became concerned over reports of automatic gunfire coming from the Carmel compound.[14]
from wiki. Unless you’re talking about Max’s and Nathan’s religion, your religion canard don’t fly.
A genealogical researcher discovered Hillary Clinton’’s great-great uncle, Remus Rodham, was hanged for rustling and train robbery in Montana in 1889. The only known photograph of Remus shows him standing on the gallows. On the back of the picture is this inscription:
“Remus Rodham; horse thief, sent to Montana Territorial prison 1883, escaped 1887, robbed the Montana Flyer six times.
“Caught by Pinkerton detectives, convicted and hanged in 1889.”
The Clinton staff has incorporated the following biographical sketch:
“Remus Rodham was a famous cowboy in the Montana Territory. His business empire grew to include acquisition of valuable equestrian assets and intimate dealings with the Montana railroad. Beginning in 1883 he devoted several years of his life to service at a government facility, finally taking leave to resume his dealings with the railroad. In 1887, he was a key player in a vital investigation run by the renowned Pinkerton detective Agency. In 1889, Remus passed away during an important civic function held in his honor when the platform upon which he was standing collapsed.”
I saw some interviews of some of the texas ladies on the morning news. Why do they all dress and wear their hair the same? Is it some type of uniform or are they just trying to fit in? Is it their choice or some old fart’s decision?
“The documentary Inside Waco claims that the investigation started when in 1992 the ATF became concerned over reports of automatic gunfire coming from the Carmel compound.”
Gee, who was president in 1992?
I have seen Clinton/Reno blamed for Ruby Ridge too …
I too, have the book Linda refers to - Under the Banner of Heaven: A Story of Violent Faith. It is the story of the Warren Jess (not sure on the first name) sect that forced young Morman girls into marriage. Jess was caught in Las Vegas and may still be under trial at this time.
The book does contain a lot of info on Mormanism - the church tried valiantly to supress the work. Krakauer used their criticisms to improve the book. It has been favorably compared to the Capote classic In Cold Blood which BTW was not all that historically accurate.
I would highly recommend the book anyone who is interested in Latter Day Saint history or the wanton cruelty that people can subject other people to.
Made a mistake on the name - it is Warren Jeffs. He is now in prison, but one source from a google search indicates he still tries to run his empire from behind bars.
The re-post at 12:32 by me shows that assumptions are just assumptions.
Getting accused daily of being other posters gets old.
Oh, and while I’m on the subject. The only poster I am on this Blog is Regular.
period. That’s it.
It’s doubtful that BlueJay aka J R or any other poster would ever apologize for making false accusations and it is unimportant to me.
What it does show is that some Libs that post on this board will use any dishonest method they can for oneupmanship.
Of course, CapnAmerica has been accusing me of being Right Angle for about two years now, so pardon me if I look at his apology as an used “snot rag” that has been filled with his spew, then discarded as it is no longer convenient.
bth Posted April 16, 2008 at 12:27 pm | Permalink
Sol - my point is that Clinton was not even president in 1992.
************************************************
Agreed. And neither Clinton nor Bush is to blame for poor execution.
“Of course, CapnAmerica has been accusing me of being Right Angle for about two years now, so pardon me if I look at his apology as an used “snot rag” that has been filled with his spew, then discarded as it is no longer convenient.”
Posted by reg.
====================================================
Grateful_Dave
Posted April 16, 2008 at 11:55 am | Permalink
I saw some interviews of some of the texas ladies on the morning news. Why do they all dress and wear their hair the same? Is it some type of uniform or are they just trying to fit in? Is it their choice or some old fart’s decision?
======================================
A little of both, Dave — There are some pentecostal, and very conservative mennnite groups who still dressss thaat way too!! Usually its a symbol that they all look the same, at least on the surface!!
In the above book, it goes over the history of the LDS church whereby they are the only indigenous group to ever declare war on the U.S.
Joseph Smith, the founder of the LDS church, and the guy who found the tablets left by the angel Maroni (sp - not sure on) was arrested (more than once) for running seance and similar spiritualist scams.
There was a con-man who was an expert in 19th century penmanship, who made up several potentially embarassing documents to which he signed Joseph Smith’s name. The LDS church officials bought up all of these phony documents that took advantage of Smith’s shady past. They paid high prices for them and buried them in their vaults. It was a crime I kind of admired in a way - it was ingenious.
Regular
Posted April 16, 2008 at 12:40 pm | Permalink
The re-post at 12:32 by me shows that assumptions are just assumptions.
Getting accused daily of being other posters gets old.
===========================
Like you wouldnt know anything about that, unless somebody is doing it to you?? Like you wouldnt EVER do that to anybody else?? Nawww, you wouldnt EVER do that to any other posters…. BS to that one JAMES!!! Maybe others will stop doing it to YOU, when you get it through YOUR head that YOU cant do it to others!!
Fresh wood for the woodpile. Judges rule on another student led prayer case. I guess according to some, if you are invovled in government, you must be hostile to religion. What a nutcase ruling. I am not Jewis, nor Moslem, Nor Catholic, Nor buddhist Nor Pagan. However, if I am in the prescene of any of these and there is a led prayer, I will still bow my head respectfully. THought I don;t think I have been in the prescence of any pagan rituals, I have been in the rest,including Hare Krishna. Whether or not I agree, I would not be other than respectful. According to some, that is establishing religion, I guess. I guess they forgot that part of the COnstitution that says
” prohibiting the free exercise thereof”
“Meanwhile, Judge Theodore McKee wrote that kneeling or head-bowing would look like an endorsement of religion even to someone who did not know the coach had led prayers in the past.
I guess according to some, if you are invovled in government, you must be hostile to religion.
Wrong. You have to be neutral to religion. There is no logical basis for concluding that the decision was based upon or endorsed in any way hostility to religion.
It does at first blush look like an uncommonly close case. The problem is, when the person is in fact a government authority (and even more so with students), that authority (and pressure to conform) is implicit when they endorse a particular religious belief.
The school board could have (and, in my view, should have) handled it differently, but courts have considerably less latitude. They have to follow precedent, and decide the case before them. In this instance, they could only strike down the Board’s policy on First Amendment grounds, or not.
The bottom line: free exercise of religion (for the students) was deemed more important than incidental encroachment on the rights of a state actor, on the job.
The issue could have stopped at the School Board.
When I worked for the state of Kansas, I for a time had a supervisor who was deeply religious. If we had a dinner, this person would ask if it was okay to say grace. Being a nice guy, I never objected. Not being a hypocrite, I never bowed my head either.
#
Chas
Posted April 16, 2008 at 3:07 pm | Permalink
Regular
Posted April 16, 2008 at 12:40 pm | Permalink
The re-post at 12:32 by me shows that assumptions are just assumptions.
Getting accused daily of being other posters gets old.
===========================
Like you wouldnt know anything about that, unless somebody is doing it to you?? Like you wouldnt EVER do that to anybody else?? Nawww, you wouldnt EVER do that to any other posters…. BS to that one JAMES!!! Maybe others will stop doing it to YOU, when you get it through YOUR head that YOU cant do it to others!!
——————
Perhaps if you’re other nics didn’t use the same phrases, expression, caps and “!!!” no one would be the wiser Chas.
No, I don’t know who you are. Don’t think I accused anyone of being cosmos, but cosmos.
cosmos was actually intelligent. If you aren’t Steven Davis, then I can’t think of any other poster that would be technically savvy enough to even talk about Climate change in a manner that would not make me laugh out loud.
Ben maybe, but I don’t think you’re Ben, no typos.
And Ben could care less what other posters think about him (most of the time)
Reggie… If you stop accusing others, others will stop accusing you!! It really is that simple!! What you dish out is what you tend to get back… I am Chas… I am only Chas… Why do YOU keep making qaccusdations, and then take up lots and lots of space bitching when people do the same thing to YOU,
AND then, you have the NERVE to say:
“Getting accused daily of being other posters gets old.”
Pro-abortion Missouri lawmakers are reaching pretty hard for arguments against the bill to punish the coercion of abortion and protect informed consent in abortion mills. The pro-life bill is passing the Missouri House by a wide margin, as Bilious Sebelius prepares to veto a similar Kansas informed consent bill.
- - -
Sen. Robert Casey, Jr. (D-Pa.), masquerading as a pro-life Catholic politician, says he will endorse candidate Obamanation, the most leftist, extremist, pro-abortion presidential candidate the USofA has ever seen, because other issues are more important than the ongoing mangling, dismembering, poisoning, and beheading of American babies for huge profits that corrupt our local, state, and federal governments.
Hello puke-boy - I see you are up to your usual name-calling this afternoon. Did it ever occur to you that you might actually seem to have something to say if you steered clear of that name-calling?
Chas, Its Herb, not Heb, and the only reason I wont make Governor is, “”I”", choose not to belittle myself into that “Tainted Position”. Herbert West III west.herb@yahoo.comhttp://www.wen2k.com
Yep, McCluer has NEVER accused anyone of being another poster - never accused Chas of being :: or Sugar or anyone else. Never accused me of being Door King.
Yep, McCluer is a clean as the driven snow.
Yep, just as surely as the sun will rise in the West tomorrow, McCluer is innocent.
Vicious teenage boys Alfonso Price, 16, and Jebrell Wright, 17, of Hamilton County, OH are facing life prison terms after a jury found them guilty of murder, kidnapping and felonious assault Monday. The boys abducted, beat, kicked, and stomped a girl, 18, pregnant with what they thought was Price’s baby, actually fathered by someone else, but a baby Price had wanted killed in an abortion mill. The girl survived the beating, but her late-term baby died.
Price’s shyster, Mary Donovan, said the girl made herself out to be more of a victim than she really
was.
- - -
Itawamba County, MS authorities are investigating the death of a newborn boy found in a five-gallon bucket Monday night. Preliminary autopsy results show the boy was alive at some time, and the case is being treated as a murder investigation.
- - -
Tonya Nicole Brown, 25, of Lexington, KY was arrested Friday after her full-term newborn daughter was discovered in a garbage can. She is charged with murder. The girl’s tiny body was in the garbage can for 4 days before police found her.
P-Mama — Now he is interested in murder convictions, the same as any sane person would be… But he seems only interested in new-born murder stories… Hmmmmmm
Chas did you ever think that he feels someone should be looking out for the weakest among us because no one else has stepped up and taken on that role.
Perhaps someone should look at Obama’s stance on these discarded babies;
“In 2002, as an Illinois legislator, Obama voted against the Induced Infant Liability Act, which would have protected babies that survived late-term abortions. That same year a similar federal law, the Born Alive Infant Protection Act, was signed by President Bush. Only 15 members of the U.S. House opposed it, and it passed the Senate unanimously on a voice vote.
Both the Illinois and the federal bill sought equal treatment for babies who survived premature inducement for the purpose of abortion and wanted babies who were born prematurely and given live-saving medical attention.”
He feels that to give medical attention to a live product of an abortion attempt gives a human status to the ‘fetus’. Why not just throw away an unwanted baby? Why charge anyone with murder? They just waited a little late to get the abortion.
Grm… Murder of newe born children has ALWAYS been against the law..,. except in those primitive tribal areas that practice human sacrifice of the First Born!!
“Both the Illinois and the federal bill sought equal treatment for babies who survived premature inducement for the purpose of abortion and wanted babies who were born prematurely and given live-saving medical attention.”
==============================
There’s your answer. Obviously, Obama knew the federal bill would pass with nearly unanimous votes… Since the abortion issue has not yet been returned to the States, the Federal bill would logically be the one to push for passage… Apparently Obama didnt oppose the Federal Bill, as an Illinois State Senator.
Chas I think this shows just another side of a very liberal politician. These things will come out when/if he is the demo candidate. There is very little difference in ‘allowing’ a newborn to die in an abortion clinic and giving birth in a bathroom and throwing the result away.
When did we as a country start thinking aht the right of a woman to have an abortion took away the right of a newborn to live? It is a sad statement on our own humanity.
Chas what do I know is false. It is a matter of record look it up. Please don’t announce something is false without researching it. I know it defies belief but the record is clear. He voted against giving any medical right to the live abortion survivor.
The consenus which is someone’s opinion I realize is that by assigning rights to the product of an abortion you were recognizing it as a human with the right to life and the pursuit of happiness.
And, Granny, Using your own quote, I just told you WHY he voted his vote in ILLINOIS… Now, would you mind reading what I responded, AND, try answering the two questions I asked of you directly??
“There is very little difference in ‘allowing’ a newborn to die in an abortion clinic and giving birth in a bathroom and throwing the result away.”
[KsGrm]
Now THAT statement is just plain old fashioned BS. There is a HUGE DIFFERENCE!! If a live born infant was discarded in an abortion clinic, then those practitioners should ALSO be charged with murder…
However, since the incident described happens in a bathroom somewhere, AWAY from doctors, nurses, and clinics…. Then that is MURDER on the part of the mother… It is NOT the equivalent of an abortion –
But spin onward if you must… Desperation talking, or what??
Chas
Posted April 16, 2008 at 8:47 pm | Permalink
Two questions Grm —
1) What percentage of ALL abortions in the USA are “late term” abortions?
2) How many of the 50 States do NOT have some kind of law restricting those “late term” abortions?
My strong hunch is that Obama’s position on an Illinois STATE Senate bill is irrelevant, since the Federal Bill was extremely assured of passage.
Chas do I look like your secretary? If you want to know the percentage of late term abortions look it up. I’m not interested. Not relevant. As for the states, we are talking about Illinois and not the other 49 because that is where Obama was a state senator.
Now stop trying to change the subject. Didn’t work.
“WSClark
Posted April 16, 2008 at 9:01 pm | Permalink
“I seem to remember that Obama has the record of not voting on many of the votes that came before him.”
WS I haven’t said anything about abortion pro or con. I am talking about the bill he sponsored which would withhold medical treatment for a live baby as the result of an attempted late term abortion. This was something that happened during partial birth abortions on ocassion.
Chas for once maybe you can have a civilized conversation and keep that renegage finger off the shift key. And again what you want to know has nothing to do with this discussion and if you want the answer hire a secretary or look it up yourself.
It is also very much a part of nature. In the animal kingdom, pregnant animals often spontaneously abort due to stresses such as lack of food.
We know that most women who choose to end a pregnancy do so because of a lack of resources. In fact, many already HAVE children and want to conserve their limited resources for the already born.
The way to mitigate abortion is to assist these women economically and socially.
Another way to say this is “It takes a village to raise a child.”
“Obama is a direct supporter of Planned Parenthood and a women’s choice on abortion.” [American]
I dont know if Obama is a direct supporter of Planned Parenthood… He is Pro-Choice… He is in favor of a WOMAN’S right to choose for HERSELF on matters of importance in HER life…
“On the Illinois Senate floor, Obama was the only senator to speak against the baby-protecting bills. He voted “present” on each, effectively the same as a “no.”
“Number one,” said Obama, explaining his reluctance to protect born infants, “whenever we define a pre-viable fetus as a person that is protected by the Equal Protection Clause or the other elements in the Constitution, what we’re really saying is, in fact, that they are persons that are entitled to the kinds of protections that would be provided to a — a child, a 9-month old — child that was delivered to term. That determination then, essentially, if it was accepted by a court, would forbid abortions to take place. I mean, it — it would essentially bar abortions, because the Equal Protection Clause does not allow somebody to kill a child, and if this is a child, then this would be an anti-abortion statute.”
These are the words of our next prez wannabe that he spoke on the floor of the Illinois senate. Sounds very much like the stand many used to have about slaves in the south. If not recognized as persons then they have no rights.
This same bill passed 98-0 in the US Senate who didn’t see it as a threat to abortion.
11 Now what I am commanding you today is not too difficult for you or beyond your reach. 12 It is not up in heaven, so that you have to ask, “Who will ascend into heaven to get it and proclaim it to us so we may obey it?” 13 Nor is it beyond the sea, so that you have to ask, “Who will cross the sea to get it and proclaim it to us so we may obey it?” 14 No, the word is very near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart so you may obey it.
15 See, I set before you today LIFE and prosperity, DEATH and destruction. 16 For I command you today to love the LORD your God, to walk in his ways, and to keep his commands, decrees and laws; then you will live and increase, and the LORD your God will bless you in the land you are entering to possess.
17 But if your heart turns away and you are not obedient, and if you are drawn away to bow down to other gods and worship them, 18 I declare to you this day that you will certainly be destroyed. You will not live long in the land you are crossing the Jordan to enter and possess.
19 This day I call heaven and earth as witnesses against you that I have set before you LIFE and DEATH, blessings and curses. NOW CHOOSE LIFE, so that you and your children may live 20 and that you may love the LORD your God, listen to his voice, and hold fast to him. For the LORD is your life, and he will give you many years in the land he swore to give to your fathers, Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.”
“In 1997, Obama voted against SB 230, which would have turned doctors into felons by banning so-called partial-birth abortion, & against a 2000 bill banning state funding. Although these bills included an exception to save the life of the mother, they didn’t include anything about abortions necessary to protect the health of the mother. The legislation defined a fetus as a person, & could have criminalized virtually all abortion.”
Granny — use your brain — the Federal Bill was pending when the Illinois Vote took place… Obama KNEW the Fed. Bill would pass… IOW, Illinois didnt NEED the bill in their Senate!!
This is an exerpt from testimony before the Illinois state senate.
“Jill Stanek, who was a nurse at Christ Hospital in Oak Lawn, Ill., testified in the U.S. Congress in 2000 and 2001 about how “induced labor abortions” were handled at her hospital.
“One night,” she said in testimony entered into the Congressional Record, “a nursing co-worker was taking an aborted Down’s Syndrome baby who was born alive to our Soiled Utility Room because his parents did not want to hold him, and she did not have the time to hold him. I couldn’t bear the thought of this suffering child lying alone in a Soiled Utility Room, so I cradled and rocked him for the 45 minutes that he lived.”
In 2001, Illinois state Sen. Patrick O’Malley introduced three bills to help such babies. One required a second physician to be present at the abortion to determine if a surviving baby was viable. Another gave the parents or a public guardian the right to sue to protect the baby’s rights. A third, almost identical to the federal Born Alive Infant Protection Act President Bush signed in 2002, simply said a “homo sapiens” wholly emerged from his mother with a “beating heart, pulsation of the umbilical cord or definite movement of voluntary muscles” should be treated as a “‘person,’ ‘human being,’ ‘child’ and ‘individual.’”
Stanek testified about these bills in the Illinois Senate Judiciary Committee, where Obama served. She told me this week he was “unfazed” by her story of holding the baby who survived an induced labor abortion.”
Is this the man we want to be our prez? This will be aired further I am sure.
“On the Illinois Senate floor, Obama was the only senator to speak against the baby-protecting bills. He voted “present” on each, effectively the same as a “no.”
Please provide a mainstream (not Berks Conservative)that can verify the above information.
“BlueJay
Posted April 16, 2008 at 9:16 pm | Permalink
“In what ways is abortion ever justified?”
If a woman chooses to have one. That is the law.
It is also very much a part of nature. In the animal kingdom, pregnant animals often spontaneously abort due to stresses such as lack of food.
We know that most women who choose to end a pregnancy do so because of a lack of resources. In fact, many already HAVE children and want to conserve their limited resources for the already born.
The way to mitigate abortion is to assist these women economically and socially.
Another way to say this is “It takes a village to raise a child.””
So you are saying that anytime a woman decides to have an abortion, she should have one? No restrictions? Period?
A human woman is not an animal!
Why not encourage women not to become pregnant in the first place by choosing not to have sexual relations with a man?
Are you saying the government is right in approving the mandate to condone abortion by assisting that them in having one?
It takes a mother and a father, in marraige, to properly raise a child!
Chas hard as it is a time I have tried to treat you with respect but as I was taught respect is something you earn and trust me you have earned nothing.
WS this is not the bill in question. When this bill was presented he felt that he would criminalize the abortion providor if it passed and so co-sponsored a bill to take away the right of a survivor to an abortion. This is the bill he is talking about on the floor.
Chas he didn’t have to do the right thing because he knew the US Senate would take care of it for him. What idiotic logic.
“One required a second physician to be present at the abortion to determine if a surviving baby was viable. ”
AFTER you posted:
“I couldn’t bear the thought of this suffering child lying alone in a Soiled Utility Room, so I cradled and rocked him for the 45 minutes that he lived.”
You see? You have defeated your own argument.
In the anecdote, the child lived only 45 minutes.
A very sad story to be sure, but as I said, camel’s nose.
Chas
Posted April 16, 2008 at 9:24 pm | Permalink
Granny — use your brain — the Federal Bill was pending when the Illinois Vote took place… Obama KNEW the Fed. Bill would pass… IOW, Illinois didnt NEED the bill in their Senate!!
Chas
Posted April 16, 2008 at 9:24 pm | Permalink
Granny ? use your brain ? the Federal Bill was pending when the Illinois Vote took place? Obama KNEW the Fed. Bill would pass? IOW, Illinois didnt NEED the bill in their Senate!!
GRANNY — you have no right to talk about respect… You have filled this thread with more of your stupid, drivel, vicious lies!!
The Federal Bill was already in motion BEFORE the Illinois Bill was voted on…
BTW, a vote of present is no more of a NO vote, than it is a YES vote…. Go back and study your basic government text books again!! You DID take government classes in school, right??
“WSClark
Posted April 16, 2008 at 9:32 pm | Permalink
“Why not encourage women not to become pregnant in the first place by choosing not to have sexual relations with a man?”
Adults in relationships have sex - get over it.
Are you proposing to outlaw ALL abortions?”
Men and women suffer because of the decisions they make.
It’s not about adults and sex. Men and women who choose to have sex in marraige are adults are they not?
“So you are saying that anytime a woman decides to have an abortion, she should have one? No restrictions? Period?”
Yes I am. And that is the law.
And YOU “American” have betrayed your true cause here with:
“Why not encourage women not to become pregnant in the first place by choosing not to have sexual relations with a man?”
You are not pro life. You are “pro life”.
Of the strain anti sex.
I KNOW I used to suffer from it myself.
But you weren’t done looking foolish.
“It takes a mother and a father, in marraige, to properly raise a child!”
I’m sorry to hear that. I’m sorry my son’s mother did not feel the same way too.
And since MOST cases where a woman exercises choice are women of limited resources and single women, you have just disqualified them to properly raise a child according to your definition.
Granny, when Obama voted “Present” His vote shows up on the Senate record that he was PRESENT…. It does not show up in the Illinois Senate Record that Obama voted NO…
Now, do you want to keep on pushing lies, or do you want to discuss the issue??
214 Comments
They say that God is everywhere, and yet we always think of Him as somewhat of a recluse.
- Emily Dickinson
Well HE sure isn’t on this board.
Those Texans are kinky!
“The search revealed that a soaring white limestone temple at the ranch held a bed where officials believe underage girls were required to consummate their spiritual marriages to much older men”
where officials believe underage girls were required to consummate their spiritual marriages to much older men”
Gee I thought that only happened in Politics!
I’ll never think of Goodfellow AFB (San Angelo Texas - the location of the Texas Child Custody Case) in quite the same way anymore.
Dichotomy of events - location of Goodfellow AFB, where they train intelligence careers for Army, Air Force to learn how to un-bed secrets.
…and the Mormon Cult Ranch, where they take their secrets to bed…
Was the raid legal? Was the call a prank? Were the children abused? Is it legal to keep the children separated from their mothers?
Have children been forced into marriage before the age of consent? Have children been forced to have sex without or before the age of consent?
Lots of questions. Not many answers.
From tha WIKI
The age of consent in Texas is 17 {Texas Penal Code Section 21.11}. However , “…It is an affirmative defense to prosecution under this section that the actor…was not more than three years older than the victim and of the opposite sex…(and) did not use duress, force, or a threat against the victim at the time of the offence” and is not a registered sex offender {Section 21.11(b)}.
“at the ranch held a bed”
What is kinky about a bed? What do you expect them to use - the floor?
My first thought is this is great sensationalism by the press. On the other hand, Sol has good questions we need answered.
Remember the Waco. Our government under Clinton/Reno went after a religion. Maybe this is more of the same?
BTW, before it starts: I do not condone child abuse. If convicted, I hope the adult men AND women responsible for such are sentenced to the fullest extent of the law. In Louisiana that could mean the death penalty. Not sure on Texas law.
Report: Sadr Movement Largest Humanitarian Organization in Iraq
A new report from Refugees International says the Iraqi government has failed to respond to the needs of an estimated 2.7 million internal refugees and in turn militia groups have moved in to fill the void. Refugees International says the largest humanitarian organization in Iraq is now the Sadr movement affiliated with Shiite cleric, Moqtada Al Sadr, a fierce critic of the U.S. occupation. Sadr has set up a program modeled on Hezbollah’s work in Lebanon to offer shelter, food and non-food items to hundreds of thousands of Shiites in Iraq.
Linkiepoo
Seems to me Sadr is doing more for Iraq than the Iraqis.
At present, the only evidence made public that anything is happening at the cult center is:
1. A bed in the temple.
2. A strand of hair.
3. The word of an informant.
“Clinton/Reno went after a religion”
Maybe I should have said “went after a religion and guns.”
Perhaps AmWay it should be “a religious nut armed to the teeth”.
I didn’t know in this country it was against the law to be whatever a “religious nut” is.
And I don’t know if the 2nd Amendment disallows being “armed to the teeth”.
So I’m still not sure KN.
“Remember the Waco. Our government under Clinton/Reno went after a religion. Maybe this is more of the same?”
The planning for the raid took place BEFORE inauguration. The raid itself took place BEFORE Reno became AG - Bush hold-overs were still in office.
Back to the cult - DNA testing could be quite interesting. Have young girls birthed babies by older men?
Sol said “Seems to me Sadr is doing more for Iraq than the Iraqis.”
Really Sol, you have obviously made the mistake of thinking that the war is about helping the Iraqi people.
That is not on the Red agenda.
This is a very recent quote from a world leader. Any guesses?
“Four or five years ago, a suspicious event occurred in New York. A building collapsed and they said that 3,000 people had been killed but never published their names,”
yep - Ahmadenijad is ranting again.
Jimmy Carter: “I don’t think it is possible to have an ultimate peace agreement here without the involvement of Syria. The Golan Heights issue has to be resolved. Syria has to be friendly toward Israel, not an enemy. And I don’t think it’s possible without involving Hamas. I don’t care if Hamas represents 10 percent of the Palestinian people or 42 percent or 44 percent. It doesn’t matter to me. But to have them completely excluded even from conversations or consultations, I think is counterproductive.”
_
_
On Tuesday Jimmy Carter laid a wreath at the grave of Yasser Arafat and met with a leading figure in Hamas. Carter is hoping to meet with Hamas leader Khalid Meshaal soon in Damascus. Carter wanted to visit Gaza but Israeli officials denied him entry. Carter’s trip was been widely criticized in Israel and Washington. Democratic Congressman Howard Berman – the new chair of the House Foreign Affairs Committee – accused Carter of undermining U.S. policy. Hamas officials have welcomed Carter’s trip.
Linkiepoo
On an Open Thread a day or two ago I posted the URL for the Deseret News (of Salt Lake) that included lots of comments from self-described Mormons. While specifying they are LDS (mainstream Mormons) and not FLDS (the Jessups cult), many were sympathetic to the polygamy, forced marriages, and child rape of the Texas cult.
David Koresch’s outfit was the Manson Family with Bible (instead of Beatle) study.
But for Cons such as “American_Way,” Waco is tantamount to martyrdom.
Public deflowering of 12-year-olds in a “temple” has become “American_Way’s” cause du jour.
Sometimes I wonder why we even bother discussing issues with Cons.
It’s like they all go home at night to Bizzaro Lois.
Have children been forced into marriage before the age of consent? Have children been forced to have sex without or before the age of consent?
*****
Yes, one of the wives taken into custody was 16 years old and had 4 children.
You do the math.
Polygamy is a crime in this country.
Why do the wing-nuts rise to the defense of every fascist cult?
Unless they sympathize with the male-dominated fascism it represents . . .
The caller should have complained of forced abortions!
Then every reich-winger in the country would be calling for a Phill Kline-style witch hunt . . .
Remember the Waco. Our government under Clinton/Reno went after a religion.
*****
Our government went after a meglomaniac who held people against their will, raped girls, raped wives, and beat viciously any man who spoke against it.
Of course the right-wing is all for that.
Scratch a winger, and see the fascist underneath.
Have children been forced into marriage before the age of consent? Have children been forced to have sex without or before the age of consent?
Capn,
I asked these questions and a few others. None of them support nor damn the people.
Touchy bitch.
Of course the right-wing is all for that.
Scratch a winger, and see the fascist underneath.
You stupid pompous ass. Who got the ground work done on Waco? Who set it up and planned it long before action was taken.
You are a partisan bitch capn.
#
outlander
Posted April 16, 2008 at 9:04 am | Permalink
This is a very recent quote from a world leader. Any guesses?
“Four or five years ago, a suspicious event occurred in New York. A building collapsed and they said that 3,000 people had been killed but never published their names,”
============
#
bth
Posted April 16, 2008 at 9:06 am | Permalink
yep - Ahmadenijad is ranting again.
——-
We have a winner. Can’t put much past Ben.
But Ahmadenijad is getting outdone this morning by CapnA and his irrational rants.
Haven’t really followed the whole polygamist business, but heard a constitutional law attorney on NPR. Seems if the removals were really based on nothing more than an anonymous phone call from a girl they can’t find, the government could have some rough sledding ahead, as anonymous phone tip + guilt-by-association (i.e. associated with Warren Jeffs) does not, by itself, constitute probable cause.
Does anyone know if there was a warrant served? Who the judge was that signed it? Could this be another Patriot Act fiasco?
If they went in w/o a warrant, doesn’t that make all the evidence they uncover inadmissible?
You know, as off track as the country has become – read Petraeus not knowing that he needs congressional approval before he bombs Iran – and using the Patriot Act to bust a governor for getting some high priced nookie – isn’t it about time we went back to that constitution thingy and start behaving properly?
You know, as off track as the country has become – read Petraeus not knowing that he needs congressional approval before he bombs Iran – and using the Patriot Act to bust a governor for getting some high priced nookie – isn’t it about time we went back to that constitution thingy and start behaving properly?
“No, I don’t know his real name, but you can probably track him down by IP. I think he lives in Michigan. The Patriot Act covers it? Great, and thank you, too, Agent Smith!”
(Hangs up phone)
“Yes, one of the wives taken into custody was 16 years old and had 4 children.” —
Cpt. Am
I don’t think that statement will hold up. If you can cite the source, I’d appreciate it.
“Haven’t really followed the whole polygamist business, but heard a constitutional law attorney on NPR. Seems if the removals were really based on nothing more than an anonymous phone call from a girl they can’t find, the government could have some rough sledding ahead, as anonymous phone tip + guilt-by-association (i.e. associated with Warren Jeffs) does not, by itself, constitute probable cause.” — Rage
And all evidence uncovered would be “fruit of the poisened tree.” However, due to the hysteria in this country about sex, I don’t think the courts would rule for the cult, thus removing for all time one more crucial buttress of the 4th amendment.
The crucial question may be: “was the informant reliable.” Because he only informed law enforcement that the bed in the temple was used to break in iniatiates AFTER it was discovered.
Rage
Posted April 16, 2008 at 10:19 am | Permalink
Not even close to funny… cause it is too damn true.
Texas law enforcement is frequently bass-ackwards.
Seems to me more logical to remove all the older men from the FLDS compound rather than the kids and moms.
They’re the ones who publicly boink 12-year-old girls as a “temple rite.”
And then it occurs to me:
Perhaps Osama bin Laden’s version of Islam is comparable to Warren Jeff’s version of Christianity.
All my life, CONs have leveraged fear in their quest for power. Dick Nixon and Joe McCarthy vs. the “Communists,” George Wallace and Strom Thurmond vs. the Negroes, George WMD Bush vs. Saddam Hussein.
Come up with a bogeyman and promise protection from him, and you’ll get the fraidy-cat vote (which is always dominated by the CONservatives).
Warren Jeffs conjured up a theology that somehow justifies fuc#ing Brownie Scouts.
And look at those who run to his defense: “American_Way,” “outlander,” “SolDevVB,” and the usual motley crew of CONservatives.
What kind of BS is this?
McCain “Family Recipes” Lifted from the Food Network
Posted April 14, 2008 | 10:30 PM (EST)
It took less than 12 hours from the time the media caught wind of Cindy McCain’s recipe theft for John McCain’s campaign website to scrub away the offending pages (screen-captured below). That’s 12 hours more than it took Cindy to come up with the recipes… (In the meantime, you can still see the listing of recipes as it originally appeared on the campaign website through the Google cache.)
It also turns out that Mrs. McCain submitted “her” Passion Fruit Mousse recipe to the New York Sun for an article that ran on January 16th. Just like on the McCain campaign site, there is no sourcing other than McCain herself…
CNN (and TMZ) are now reporting that Recipegate was the work of an intern, and that according to McCain’s campaign, the whole thing is a “low-level unpaid staff debacle.”
Personally, I’m not sure how an intern can be responsible for messing up the McCain “family” recipes. Did the intern lose Cindy’s recipe box only to haphazardly try to replace them with Food Network recipes? If only we could all steal and lie and lay it off on the unpaid help.
I’m thinking that old sayin If they’re old enough to bleed…, must be a conservative truism.
Monkey boy,
Show where I defended them. Put up or shut up boy.
Show where anyone has defended them monkey boy. The questions asked are if the authorities played by the rules or not.
Looks like you are just another lying partisan bitch monkey boy.
GDave, have you noticed how everything is ‘gated’ nowadays? Thank you Tricky Dick!
I have a copy of a book I wanted to offer to anyone interested in reading it. It’s “Under the Banner of Heaven: A Story of Violent Faith” by Jon Krakauer. It’s about the more fringe elements of the Mormon religion and the fundamentalist cults who still practice Polygamy and more. From a review written of this book: “As for Jon Krakauer’s book, it certainly has given me empathy for the vast majority of wonderful Muslims in the world who despise the freakish members of Al Qaeda, but are too often associated with them.” Not only is the book full of history about the Mormon religion but it gives one pause to think of the radical element of religions and how they DON’T and SHOULDN’T represent each person of that religion.
I went looking for it this morning and maybe I loaned it to my son-in-law, maybe I just can’t find it because I have TOO MANY books and don’t keep them organized!
So the offer holds. If anyone would like to read the book I will find it and it’s yours. I might have to ask you to come over and help me find it…
I’m thinking that old sayin If they’re old enough to bleed
In Texas, isn’t it ‘old enough to pee’?
Linda — I think I have heard of your book. If its the one I amthinking of, it is a very good, historically accuate, work. Good read!!
You might be right, Fish, but they dont advertise it that way!!
Sol, the way I understand from my limited knowlege on the thing (like we’ll really know which side is lying the hardest!), it seems the authorities DIDN’T dot i’s or cross t’s (I know, apostropes don’t belong, but it reads better), but at least it was stopped. I don’t believe any criminal CONVICTIONS will follow, and you know everyone involved will be closely watched.
“Grateful_Dave” shares –
“McCain “Family Recipes” Lifted from the Food Network”
What a hoot!
But of course this won’t turn into “Recipe-Gate.”
Those “McCain ‘Family Recipes’” are low-level, needless, and meaningless lies.
But they tell us something. Why bother with lying about “old family recipes” in the first place?
“Well, it was a slow day and we just had to produce more lies.”
Fish, if law enforcement screwed up on this one, all it will do is push this Mormon Sect further “underground” — aallowing them to continue in their crazy belief systems — and raping and forcing more young females into sexual/marital(?) unions!! Terrible miscarriage of justice!!
Don’t know if anyone else posted this but…
***********************************************
“It was this information, together with other details, that prompted a judge to issue a second search warrant authorizing authorities to search for any and all records regarding the births of children to mothers under 17, parental information, photographs (especially family portraits), family Bibles or books showing marriages and birth information, fingerprints and hair and blood samples of men and women, plus any device capable of storing images, such as computer drives, DVDs, videos, video cameras and cell phones.
The first warrant only authorized authorities to locate evidence to help them identify a 16-year-old girl, whose calls to a family shelter claiming physical and sexual abuse prompted the raid and other court orders that eventually led to all 416 children taken from the YFZ Ranch in Eldorado.”
http://www.deseretnews.com/article/1,5143,695268971,00.html
****************************************
It still doesn’t state whether taking the children was legal or not. They might have consulted CPS or some such. Other than that and separating the mothers and children, it looks like they played by the rules. Let the trials begin.
I see your point, Chas. But with like everything tighty-righty, for every one thing you find out, there’s many, many more they’re hiding better.
(We didn’t do it…ok, we did it some but we won’t do it anymore…ok, we did it some more and harder, but we’re not doing the things you haven’t caught us at yet…ok, we’re doing that, too, but we’re allowed because we’re Bushco)
Well stated Fish
It is amazing how an event like this is drawn into a battle between parties. How you can politicize this event is beyond me. Seems to me, the more left leaning bloggers are just so inclined.
“Fish, if law enforcement screwed up on this one, all it will do is push this Mormon Sect further “underground” — aallowing them to continue in their crazy belief systems — and raping and forcing more young females into sexual/marital(?) unions!! Terrible miscarriage of justice!!” — Chas.
How is it different from Catholicism?
Sol - politicization of the issue:
“American_Way
Posted April 16, 2008 at 8:40 am | Permalink
Remember the Waco. Our government under Clinton/Reno went after a religion. Maybe this is more of the same?”
AmWay is hardly left-leaning.
Sol, I agree, I lean to the left (also hang to the left *ducks*), but I’m even more ‘anti-organized-religion’ on this thing.
And as wacky, zany, misinformed and delusional as Mormons are (and I know a double handful of ‘em), you have to give them credit anyway for their perserverance. You may remember a previous post I made lauding their tenacity of developing swamp/scrubland/desert into a working, thriving community before the god-fearing ‘real’ christians came in to murder/burn them out forcing them to start anew farther west.
How is it different from Catholicism?
sorry, don’t understand the reference.
AmWay is hardly left-leaning
True, but he makes more sense every day.
beber
Posted April 16, 2008 at 11:21 am | Permalink
How is it different from Catholicism?
The Catholicism I know does NOT have marrying off young girls to older men as a part of its doctrine.
In May 1992, Chief Deputy Daniel Weyenberg of the McLennan County Sheriff’s Department called the ATF notifying that his office had been contacted by the local United Parcel Service regarding a driver seeing a package that had broken open on delivery to the Branch Davidian residence, revealing that it contained firearms, inert grenade casings, and black powder. On June 9, 1992 a formal investigation was opened and a week later it was classified as “sensitive, thereby calling for a high degree of oversight from both Houston and Headquarters” (italics on the original).[12][13]
The documentary Inside Waco claims that the investigation started when in 1992 the ATF became concerned over reports of automatic gunfire coming from the Carmel compound.[14]
from wiki. Unless you’re talking about Max’s and Nathan’s religion, your religion canard don’t fly.
You know I think I finally get it. Everything child molester in America is a conservative Catholic. Time to take your blinders off…
Baptist sexual abuse
http://www.baptiststandard.com/2002/4_22/pages/editorial.html
stopbaptistpredators.org/index.htm
http://www.wfaa.com/sharedcontent/dws/news/localnews/stories/DN-denbaptists_17met.ART0.North.Edition1.3dde359.html
http://www.snapnetwork.org/news/otherstates/fl_lawsuit_charges_baptist.htm
Methodist sexual abuse
http://www.fisheaters.com/clergysexabuse.html
http://www.snapnetwork.org/snap_letters/2005_letters/031305_united_methodist.htm
http://www.hpumc.org/pages/Genesis_Womens_Shelter
Jewish sexual abuse
jewishsurvivors.blogspot.com/
http://www.the7thfire.com/new_world_order/zionism/jewish_sexual_abuse.html
http://www.jewishmag.com/89mag/abuse/abuse.htm
ajp.psychiatryonline.org/cgi/content/abstract/164/11/1700
You know I think I finally get it. Every child molester in America is a conservative Catholic. Time to take your blinders off…
Baptist sexual abuse
http://www.baptiststandard.com/2002/4_22/pages/editorial.html
stopbaptistpredators.org/index.htm
http://www.wfaa.com/sharedcontent/dws/news/localnews/stories/DN-denbaptists_17met.ART0.North.Edition1.3dde359.html
http://www.snapnetwork.org/news/otherstates/fl_lawsuit_charges_baptist.htm
Methodist sexual abuse
http://www.fisheaters.com/clergysexabuse.html
http://www.snapnetwork.org/snap_letters/2005_letters/031305_united_methodist.htm
http://www.hpumc.org/pages/Genesis_Womens_Shelter
Jewish sexual abuse
jewishsurvivors.blogspot.com/
http://www.the7thfire.com/new_world_order/zionism/jewish_sexual_abuse.html
http://www.jewishmag.com/89mag/abuse/abuse.htm
ajp.psychiatryonline.org/cgi/content/abstract/164/11/1700
An oldie, but a goodie –
A genealogical researcher discovered Hillary Clinton’’s great-great uncle, Remus Rodham, was hanged for rustling and train robbery in Montana in 1889. The only known photograph of Remus shows him standing on the gallows. On the back of the picture is this inscription:
“Remus Rodham; horse thief, sent to Montana Territorial prison 1883, escaped 1887, robbed the Montana Flyer six times.
“Caught by Pinkerton detectives, convicted and hanged in 1889.”
The Clinton staff has incorporated the following biographical sketch:
“Remus Rodham was a famous cowboy in the Montana Territory. His business empire grew to include acquisition of valuable equestrian assets and intimate dealings with the Montana railroad. Beginning in 1883 he devoted several years of his life to service at a government facility, finally taking leave to resume his dealings with the railroad. In 1887, he was a key player in a vital investigation run by the renowned Pinkerton detective Agency. In 1889, Remus passed away during an important civic function held in his honor when the platform upon which he was standing collapsed.”
Nice touch of humor, M H
I saw some interviews of some of the texas ladies on the morning news. Why do they all dress and wear their hair the same? Is it some type of uniform or are they just trying to fit in? Is it their choice or some old fart’s decision?
“The documentary Inside Waco claims that the investigation started when in 1992 the ATF became concerned over reports of automatic gunfire coming from the Carmel compound.”
Gee, who was president in 1992?
I have seen Clinton/Reno blamed for Ruby Ridge too …
I have seen Clinton/Reno blamed for Ruby Ridge too …
I don’t think either president is to blame for either incident. More an issue of poor execution than presidential policy.
I too, have the book Linda refers to - Under the Banner of Heaven: A Story of Violent Faith. It is the story of the Warren Jess (not sure on the first name) sect that forced young Morman girls into marriage. Jess was caught in Las Vegas and may still be under trial at this time.
The book does contain a lot of info on Mormanism - the church tried valiantly to supress the work. Krakauer used their criticisms to improve the book. It has been favorably compared to the Capote classic In Cold Blood which BTW was not all that historically accurate.
I would highly recommend the book anyone who is interested in Latter Day Saint history or the wanton cruelty that people can subject other people to.
Sol - my point is that Clinton was not even president in 1992.
#
CapnAmerica
Posted April 16, 2008 at 12:19 pm | Permalink
Okay, Ben, that’s good enough for me.
Right Angle is not Regular.
I was wrong.
I apologize and will not make that accusation in the future.
Made a mistake on the name - it is Warren Jeffs. He is now in prison, but one source from a google search indicates he still tries to run his empire from behind bars.
http://www.fbi.gov/wanted/fugitives/cac/jeffs_ws.htm
The re-post at 12:32 by me shows that assumptions are just assumptions.
Getting accused daily of being other posters gets old.
Oh, and while I’m on the subject. The only poster I am on this Blog is Regular.
period. That’s it.
It’s doubtful that BlueJay aka J R or any other poster would ever apologize for making false accusations and it is unimportant to me.
What it does show is that some Libs that post on this board will use any dishonest method they can for oneupmanship.
Of course, CapnAmerica has been accusing me of being Right Angle for about two years now, so pardon me if I look at his apology as an used “snot rag” that has been filled with his spew, then discarded as it is no longer convenient.
RightAngle
Posted April 16, 2008 at 12:50 pm | Permalink
No Problem, Cap
RightAngle is the only nic I use here.
Apparently Regular cannot express Christian forgiveness like others can.
By the way Reg, you used to accuse me of being Cosmos and others all the time. Where’s my apology from you?
bth
Posted April 16, 2008 at 12:27 pm | Permalink
Sol - my point is that Clinton was not even president in 1992.
************************************************
Agreed. And neither Clinton nor Bush is to blame for poor execution.
The Clinton staff has incorporated the following biographical sketch
Clinton’s staff writes for Fox New?
The entire history of the Mormon church is an interesting and scary one, not just the history of the “fringe” elements.
“Of course, CapnAmerica has been accusing me of being Right Angle for about two years now, so pardon me if I look at his apology as an used “snot rag” that has been filled with his spew, then discarded as it is no longer convenient.”
Posted by reg.
====================================================
. . . and you expect anybody to give a sh**?
For the mormon cult, it’s “Old enough to read; Old enough to breed.”
Grateful_Dave
Posted April 16, 2008 at 11:55 am | Permalink
I saw some interviews of some of the texas ladies on the morning news. Why do they all dress and wear their hair the same? Is it some type of uniform or are they just trying to fit in? Is it their choice or some old fart’s decision?
======================================
A little of both, Dave — There are some pentecostal, and very conservative mennnite groups who still dressss thaat way too!! Usually its a symbol that they all look the same, at least on the surface!!
In the above book, it goes over the history of the LDS church whereby they are the only indigenous group to ever declare war on the U.S.
Joseph Smith, the founder of the LDS church, and the guy who found the tablets left by the angel Maroni (sp - not sure on) was arrested (more than once) for running seance and similar spiritualist scams.
There was a con-man who was an expert in 19th century penmanship, who made up several potentially embarassing documents to which he signed Joseph Smith’s name. The LDS church officials bought up all of these phony documents that took advantage of Smith’s shady past. They paid high prices for them and buried them in their vaults. It was a crime I kind of admired in a way - it was ingenious.
They must not be allowed to pluck their eyebrows either!
Regular
Posted April 16, 2008 at 12:40 pm | Permalink
The re-post at 12:32 by me shows that assumptions are just assumptions.
Getting accused daily of being other posters gets old.
===========================
Like you wouldnt know anything about that, unless somebody is doing it to you?? Like you wouldnt EVER do that to anybody else?? Nawww, you wouldnt EVER do that to any other posters…. BS to that one JAMES!!! Maybe others will stop doing it to YOU, when you get it through YOUR head that YOU cant do it to others!!
Fresh wood for the woodpile. Judges rule on another student led prayer case. I guess according to some, if you are invovled in government, you must be hostile to religion. What a nutcase ruling. I am not Jewis, nor Moslem, Nor Catholic, Nor buddhist Nor Pagan. However, if I am in the prescene of any of these and there is a led prayer, I will still bow my head respectfully. THought I don;t think I have been in the prescence of any pagan rituals, I have been in the rest,including Hare Krishna. Whether or not I agree, I would not be other than respectful. According to some, that is establishing religion, I guess. I guess they forgot that part of the COnstitution that says
” prohibiting the free exercise thereof”
“Meanwhile, Judge Theodore McKee wrote that kneeling or head-bowing would look like an endorsement of religion even to someone who did not know the coach had led prayers in the past.
http://www.nbc10.com/news/15897848/detail.html
Gee, I didn’t realize football was sacred.
I guess according to some, if you are invovled in government, you must be hostile to religion.
Wrong. You have to be neutral to religion. There is no logical basis for concluding that the decision was based upon or endorsed in any way hostility to religion.
It does at first blush look like an uncommonly close case. The problem is, when the person is in fact a government authority (and even more so with students), that authority (and pressure to conform) is implicit when they endorse a particular religious belief.
The school board could have (and, in my view, should have) handled it differently, but courts have considerably less latitude. They have to follow precedent, and decide the case before them. In this instance, they could only strike down the Board’s policy on First Amendment grounds, or not.
The bottom line: free exercise of religion (for the students) was deemed more important than incidental encroachment on the rights of a state actor, on the job.
The issue could have stopped at the School Board.
When I worked for the state of Kansas, I for a time had a supervisor who was deeply religious. If we had a dinner, this person would ask if it was okay to say grace. Being a nice guy, I never objected. Not being a hypocrite, I never bowed my head either.
We got along fine.
#
KansasNative
Posted April 16, 2008 at 12:56 pm | Permalink
RightAngle
Posted April 16, 2008 at 12:50 pm | Permalink
No Problem, Cap
RightAngle is the only nic I use here.
Apparently Regular cannot express Christian forgiveness like others can.
By the way Reg, you used to accuse me of being Cosmos and others all the time. Where’s my apology from you?
——————
I have no clue who you are.
And the only person I ever accused of being cosmos was Steven Davis.
Unless you are admitting you’re trolling the board with multiple nics.
#
Chas
Posted April 16, 2008 at 3:07 pm | Permalink
Regular
Posted April 16, 2008 at 12:40 pm | Permalink
The re-post at 12:32 by me shows that assumptions are just assumptions.
Getting accused daily of being other posters gets old.
===========================
Like you wouldnt know anything about that, unless somebody is doing it to you?? Like you wouldnt EVER do that to anybody else?? Nawww, you wouldnt EVER do that to any other posters…. BS to that one JAMES!!! Maybe others will stop doing it to YOU, when you get it through YOUR head that YOU cant do it to others!!
——————
Perhaps if you’re other nics didn’t use the same phrases, expression, caps and “!!!” no one would be the wiser Chas.
Sorry Reg, you either don’t remember or you’re lying.
You’ve accused me many times of being someone else…specifically Cosmos.
No matter, I always thought your arm flailing was funny and your meltdowns classic.
.
A good place to house the Bush Presidential Library:
New U.S. Embassy in Baghdad ready — six months late
http://www.mcclatchydc.com/100/story/33682.html
No, I don’t know who you are. Don’t think I accused anyone of being cosmos, but cosmos.
cosmos was actually intelligent. If you aren’t Steven Davis, then I can’t think of any other poster that would be technically savvy enough to even talk about Climate change in a manner that would not make me laugh out loud.
Ben maybe, but I don’t think you’re Ben, no typos.
And Ben could care less what other posters think about him (most of the time)
I tried to stick with my name with registration but it was taken. So I did what hank did and went with initials.
Reggie… If you stop accusing others, others will stop accusing you!! It really is that simple!! What you dish out is what you tend to get back… I am Chas… I am only Chas… Why do YOU keep making qaccusdations, and then take up lots and lots of space bitching when people do the same thing to YOU,
AND then, you have the NERVE to say:
“Getting accused daily of being other posters gets old.”
You really are a sad little man, Reggie…
Quiet Chas, we don’t want another explosion of (!!!) and caps to break out.
Then, go to your corner, and shut up, James!!
Pro-abortion Missouri lawmakers are reaching pretty hard for arguments against the bill to punish the coercion of abortion and protect informed consent in abortion mills. The pro-life bill is passing the Missouri House by a wide margin, as Bilious Sebelius prepares to veto a similar Kansas informed consent bill.
- - -
Sen. Robert Casey, Jr. (D-Pa.), masquerading as a pro-life Catholic politician, says he will endorse candidate Obamanation, the most leftist, extremist, pro-abortion presidential candidate the USofA has ever seen, because other issues are more important than the ongoing mangling, dismembering, poisoning, and beheading of American babies for huge profits that corrupt our local, state, and federal governments.
Traci Lords told Oprah all this Mormon stuff in her interview there. Herb West III, west.herb@yahoo.com
Hello puke-boy - I see you are up to your usual name-calling this afternoon. Did it ever occur to you that you might actually seem to have something to say if you steered clear of that name-calling?
Miss Lords told Oprah all this Mormon stuff in her interview there. Herb West III, west.herb@yahoo.com
She told Oprah all this stuff in her interview there on the show. Herb West III, west.herb@yahoo.com
Parkay, get out of the sun!! You are melting!! And dont you know?? Margarine is just a half a bubble off of being plastic?? LOL
Duplicate POST??????????????????? B.S. herbert West III west.herb@yahoo.com
Heb, you’re still not going to get any votes for governor!!
Chas, Its Herb, not Heb, and the only reason I wont make Governor is, “”I”", choose not to belittle myself into that “Tainted Position”. Herbert West III west.herb@yahoo.com http://www.wen2k.com
Yep, McCluer has NEVER accused anyone of being another poster - never accused Chas of being :: or Sugar or anyone else. Never accused me of being Door King.
Yep, McCluer is a clean as the driven snow.
Yep, just as surely as the sun will rise in the West tomorrow, McCluer is innocent.
sorry herb — typo!!
Parkay Nooman….will you get your head out of people’s crotches? You’ll get it infected and stink it up in there.
Vicious teenage boys Alfonso Price, 16, and Jebrell Wright, 17, of Hamilton County, OH are facing life prison terms after a jury found them guilty of murder, kidnapping and felonious assault Monday. The boys abducted, beat, kicked, and stomped a girl, 18, pregnant with what they thought was Price’s baby, actually fathered by someone else, but a baby Price had wanted killed in an abortion mill. The girl survived the beating, but her late-term baby died.
Price’s shyster, Mary Donovan, said the girl made herself out to be more of a victim than she really
was.
- - -
Itawamba County, MS authorities are investigating the death of a newborn boy found in a five-gallon bucket Monday night. Preliminary autopsy results show the boy was alive at some time, and the case is being treated as a murder investigation.
- - -
Tonya Nicole Brown, 25, of Lexington, KY was arrested Friday after her full-term newborn daughter was discovered in a garbage can. She is charged with murder. The girl’s tiny body was in the garbage can for 4 days before police found her.
Those things just make you gleeful don’t they Newman.
P-Mama — Now he is interested in murder convictions, the same as any sane person would be… But he seems only interested in new-born murder stories… Hmmmmmm
Chas did you ever think that he feels someone should be looking out for the weakest among us because no one else has stepped up and taken on that role.
Perhaps someone should look at Obama’s stance on these discarded babies;
“In 2002, as an Illinois legislator, Obama voted against the Induced Infant Liability Act, which would have protected babies that survived late-term abortions. That same year a similar federal law, the Born Alive Infant Protection Act, was signed by President Bush. Only 15 members of the U.S. House opposed it, and it passed the Senate unanimously on a voice vote.
Both the Illinois and the federal bill sought equal treatment for babies who survived premature inducement for the purpose of abortion and wanted babies who were born prematurely and given live-saving medical attention.”
http://www.humanevents.com/article.php?id=18647
He feels that to give medical attention to a live product of an abortion attempt gives a human status to the ‘fetus’. Why not just throw away an unwanted baby? Why charge anyone with murder? They just waited a little late to get the abortion.
Chas, I understand the typo, thanks Herbert West III, west.herb@yahoo.com I do it all the time.
Grm… Murder of newe born children has ALWAYS been against the law..,. except in those primitive tribal areas that practice human sacrifice of the First Born!!
New borns are ALWAYS the weakest… of ANY species!!
“Both the Illinois and the federal bill sought equal treatment for babies who survived premature inducement for the purpose of abortion and wanted babies who were born prematurely and given live-saving medical attention.”
==============================
There’s your answer. Obviously, Obama knew the federal bill would pass with nearly unanimous votes… Since the abortion issue has not yet been returned to the States, the Federal bill would logically be the one to push for passage… Apparently Obama didnt oppose the Federal Bill, as an Illinois State Senator.
Chas I think this shows just another side of a very liberal politician. These things will come out when/if he is the demo candidate. There is very little difference in ‘allowing’ a newborn to die in an abortion clinic and giving birth in a bathroom and throwing the result away.
When did we as a country start thinking aht the right of a woman to have an abortion took away the right of a newborn to live? It is a sad statement on our own humanity.
Two questions Grm —
1) What percentage of ALL abortions in the USA are “late term” abortions?
2) How many of the 50 States do NOT have some kind of law restricting those “late term” abortions?
My strong hunch is that Obama’s position on an Illinois STATE Senate bill is irrelevant, since the Federal Bill was extremely assured of passage.
The man who would be prez thinks it is wrong to give a live newborn the right to survive an you think this is irrelevant.
Tht is just plain FALSE Granny, and you KNOW it is FALSE!!
Hey Chas,
How are you this evening?
American, of the USA
Chas what do I know is false. It is a matter of record look it up. Please don’t announce something is false without researching it. I know it defies belief but the record is clear. He voted against giving any medical right to the live abortion survivor.
The consenus which is someone’s opinion I realize is that by assigning rights to the product of an abortion you were recognizing it as a human with the right to life and the pursuit of happiness.
And, Granny, Using your own quote, I just told you WHY he voted his vote in ILLINOIS… Now, would you mind reading what I responded, AND, try answering the two questions I asked of you directly??
I seem to remember that Obama has the record of not voting on many of the votes that came before him.
Was it that he didn’t want to commit himself one way or the other?
No American on this one he actually voted and voted against medical help for the live product of an attempted abortion.
“I seem to remember that Obama has the record of not voting on many of the votes that came before him.”
130 times out of 4,000.
3.25%
BFD.
“There is very little difference in ‘allowing’ a newborn to die in an abortion clinic and giving birth in a bathroom and throwing the result away.”
[KsGrm]
Now THAT statement is just plain old fashioned BS. There is a HUGE DIFFERENCE!! If a live born infant was discarded in an abortion clinic, then those practitioners should ALSO be charged with murder…
However, since the incident described happens in a bathroom somewhere, AWAY from doctors, nurses, and clinics…. Then that is MURDER on the part of the mother… It is NOT the equivalent of an abortion –
But spin onward if you must… Desperation talking, or what??
Let’s go with what we do know for sure:
Obama is a direct supporter of Planned Parenthood and a women’s choice on abortion.
Chas - when is it ever acceptable to abort a baby?
By the way, George Tiller is the abortionist who commits the most 3rd trimester abortions in America via the partial birth abortion.
Is this acceptable Chas?
Chas
Posted April 16, 2008 at 8:47 pm | Permalink
Two questions Grm —
1) What percentage of ALL abortions in the USA are “late term” abortions?
2) How many of the 50 States do NOT have some kind of law restricting those “late term” abortions?
My strong hunch is that Obama’s position on an Illinois STATE Senate bill is irrelevant, since the Federal Bill was extremely assured of passage.
Chas do I look like your secretary? If you want to know the percentage of late term abortions look it up. I’m not interested. Not relevant. As for the states, we are talking about Illinois and not the other 49 because that is where Obama was a state senator.
Now stop trying to change the subject. Didn’t work.
Well, it looks like Granny wont or cant answer the two questions directed at her!!
Oh well, enjoy your dance, Granny!! one, two, three… one, two, three…
“Obama is a direct supporter of Planned Parenthood and a women’s choice on abortion.”
And more than 50% of the adult American population supports a woman’s right to choose.
Safe, legal and rare - what’s your point?
“WSClark
Posted April 16, 2008 at 9:01 pm | Permalink
“I seem to remember that Obama has the record of not voting on many of the votes that came before him.”
130 times out of 4,000.”
What votes did he sustain on WS?
“And more than 50% of the adult American population supports a woman’s right to choose.
Safe, legal and rare - what’s your point?”
In what ways is abortion ever justified?
The percentage of “late term” abortions for reasons other than serious birth defects is vanishingly small.
Pro-choice means Pro-choice… It is totally dishonest to portray Pro-choice as Pro-Abortion.
Granny, ANSWER the damned questions!! They are every bit as relevant as your bitching drivel about a vote in the ILLINOIS stte senate!!
WS I haven’t said anything about abortion pro or con. I am talking about the bill he sponsored which would withhold medical treatment for a live baby as the result of an attempted late term abortion. This was something that happened during partial birth abortions on ocassion.
Chas for once maybe you can have a civilized conversation and keep that renegage finger off the shift key. And again what you want to know has nothing to do with this discussion and if you want the answer hire a secretary or look it up yourself.
Chas, can you explain how in a discussion of Obama the laws of Hawaii are relevant?
“In what ways is abortion ever justified?”
If a woman chooses to have one. That is the law.
It is also very much a part of nature. In the animal kingdom, pregnant animals often spontaneously abort due to stresses such as lack of food.
We know that most women who choose to end a pregnancy do so because of a lack of resources. In fact, many already HAVE children and want to conserve their limited resources for the already born.
The way to mitigate abortion is to assist these women economically and socially.
Another way to say this is “It takes a village to raise a child.”
“Obama is a direct supporter of Planned Parenthood and a women’s choice on abortion.” [American]
I dont know if Obama is a direct supporter of Planned Parenthood… He is Pro-Choice… He is in favor of a WOMAN’S right to choose for HERSELF on matters of importance in HER life…
THAT is what we know!!
“On the Illinois Senate floor, Obama was the only senator to speak against the baby-protecting bills. He voted “present” on each, effectively the same as a “no.”
“Number one,” said Obama, explaining his reluctance to protect born infants, “whenever we define a pre-viable fetus as a person that is protected by the Equal Protection Clause or the other elements in the Constitution, what we’re really saying is, in fact, that they are persons that are entitled to the kinds of protections that would be provided to a — a child, a 9-month old — child that was delivered to term. That determination then, essentially, if it was accepted by a court, would forbid abortions to take place. I mean, it — it would essentially bar abortions, because the Equal Protection Clause does not allow somebody to kill a child, and if this is a child, then this would be an anti-abortion statute.”
These are the words of our next prez wannabe that he spoke on the floor of the Illinois senate. Sounds very much like the stand many used to have about slaves in the south. If not recognized as persons then they have no rights.
This same bill passed 98-0 in the US Senate who didn’t see it as a threat to abortion.
“The Offer of Life or Death
Deuteronomy 30
11 Now what I am commanding you today is not too difficult for you or beyond your reach. 12 It is not up in heaven, so that you have to ask, “Who will ascend into heaven to get it and proclaim it to us so we may obey it?” 13 Nor is it beyond the sea, so that you have to ask, “Who will cross the sea to get it and proclaim it to us so we may obey it?” 14 No, the word is very near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart so you may obey it.
15 See, I set before you today LIFE and prosperity, DEATH and destruction. 16 For I command you today to love the LORD your God, to walk in his ways, and to keep his commands, decrees and laws; then you will live and increase, and the LORD your God will bless you in the land you are entering to possess.
17 But if your heart turns away and you are not obedient, and if you are drawn away to bow down to other gods and worship them, 18 I declare to you this day that you will certainly be destroyed. You will not live long in the land you are crossing the Jordan to enter and possess.
19 This day I call heaven and earth as witnesses against you that I have set before you LIFE and DEATH, blessings and curses. NOW CHOOSE LIFE, so that you and your children may live 20 and that you may love the LORD your God, listen to his voice, and hold fast to him. For the LORD is your life, and he will give you many years in the land he swore to give to your fathers, Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.”
Which do you choose, LIFE or DEATH?
I am not advocating against abortion tonight. I am talking about the rights of the child born alive after an abortion attempt.
Try to seperate the two in your minds. They are two very different things. I don’t want any discussion on abortion.
“In 1997, Obama voted against SB 230, which would have turned doctors into felons by banning so-called partial-birth abortion, & against a 2000 bill banning state funding. Although these bills included an exception to save the life of the mother, they didn’t include anything about abortions necessary to protect the health of the mother. The legislation defined a fetus as a person, & could have criminalized virtually all abortion.”
Obama was NOT the sponsor of the bill.
http://www.ontheissues.org/Social/Barack_Obama_Abortion.htm
Granny — use your brain — the Federal Bill was pending when the Illinois Vote took place… Obama KNEW the Fed. Bill would pass… IOW, Illinois didnt NEED the bill in their Senate!!
This is an exerpt from testimony before the Illinois state senate.
“Jill Stanek, who was a nurse at Christ Hospital in Oak Lawn, Ill., testified in the U.S. Congress in 2000 and 2001 about how “induced labor abortions” were handled at her hospital.
“One night,” she said in testimony entered into the Congressional Record, “a nursing co-worker was taking an aborted Down’s Syndrome baby who was born alive to our Soiled Utility Room because his parents did not want to hold him, and she did not have the time to hold him. I couldn’t bear the thought of this suffering child lying alone in a Soiled Utility Room, so I cradled and rocked him for the 45 minutes that he lived.”
In 2001, Illinois state Sen. Patrick O’Malley introduced three bills to help such babies. One required a second physician to be present at the abortion to determine if a surviving baby was viable. Another gave the parents or a public guardian the right to sue to protect the baby’s rights. A third, almost identical to the federal Born Alive Infant Protection Act President Bush signed in 2002, simply said a “homo sapiens” wholly emerged from his mother with a “beating heart, pulsation of the umbilical cord or definite movement of voluntary muscles” should be treated as a “‘person,’ ‘human being,’ ‘child’ and ‘individual.’”
Stanek testified about these bills in the Illinois Senate Judiciary Committee, where Obama served. She told me this week he was “unfazed” by her story of holding the baby who survived an induced labor abortion.”
Is this the man we want to be our prez? This will be aired further I am sure.
No dice ksgrm.
You are using EXTREMELY rare circumstances as the camel’s nose into the tent.
I’ve been on both sides of this debate. I know all the tactics.
“On the Illinois Senate floor, Obama was the only senator to speak against the baby-protecting bills. He voted “present” on each, effectively the same as a “no.”
Please provide a mainstream (not Berks Conservative)that can verify the above information.
“BlueJay
Posted April 16, 2008 at 9:16 pm | Permalink
“In what ways is abortion ever justified?”
If a woman chooses to have one. That is the law.
It is also very much a part of nature. In the animal kingdom, pregnant animals often spontaneously abort due to stresses such as lack of food.
We know that most women who choose to end a pregnancy do so because of a lack of resources. In fact, many already HAVE children and want to conserve their limited resources for the already born.
The way to mitigate abortion is to assist these women economically and socially.
Another way to say this is “It takes a village to raise a child.””
So you are saying that anytime a woman decides to have an abortion, she should have one? No restrictions? Period?
A human woman is not an animal!
Why not encourage women not to become pregnant in the first place by choosing not to have sexual relations with a man?
Are you saying the government is right in approving the mandate to condone abortion by assisting that them in having one?
It takes a mother and a father, in marraige, to properly raise a child!
“She told me this week he was “unfazed” by her story of holding the baby who survived an induced labor abortion.”
Again, a mainstream news link - not CNS.
Chas hard as it is a time I have tried to treat you with respect but as I was taught respect is something you earn and trust me you have earned nothing.
WS this is not the bill in question. When this bill was presented he felt that he would criminalize the abortion providor if it passed and so co-sponsored a bill to take away the right of a survivor to an abortion. This is the bill he is talking about on the floor.
Chas he didn’t have to do the right thing because he knew the US Senate would take care of it for him. What idiotic logic.
“Why not encourage women not to become pregnant in the first place by choosing not to have sexual relations with a man?”
Adults in relationships have sex - get over it.
Are you proposing to outlaw ALL abortions?
“One required a second physician to be present at the abortion to determine if a surviving baby was viable. ”
AFTER you posted:
“I couldn’t bear the thought of this suffering child lying alone in a Soiled Utility Room, so I cradled and rocked him for the 45 minutes that he lived.”
You see? You have defeated your own argument.
In the anecdote, the child lived only 45 minutes.
A very sad story to be sure, but as I said, camel’s nose.
ONE MORE TIME, GRANNY >>>>
Chas
Posted April 16, 2008 at 9:24 pm | Permalink
Granny — use your brain — the Federal Bill was pending when the Illinois Vote took place… Obama KNEW the Fed. Bill would pass… IOW, Illinois didnt NEED the bill in their Senate!!
====================================
ONE MORE TIME >>>>
Chas
Posted April 16, 2008 at 9:24 pm | Permalink
Granny ? use your brain ? the Federal Bill was pending when the Illinois Vote took place? Obama KNEW the Fed. Bill would pass? IOW, Illinois didnt NEED the bill in their Senate!!
==================================
“co-sponsored a bill to take away the right of a survivor to an abortion”
Can’t find that bill in Google - please provide a link.
GRANNY — you have no right to talk about respect… You have filled this thread with more of your stupid, drivel, vicious lies!!
The Federal Bill was already in motion BEFORE the Illinois Bill was voted on…
BTW, a vote of present is no more of a NO vote, than it is a YES vote…. Go back and study your basic government text books again!! You DID take government classes in school, right??
“WSClark
Posted April 16, 2008 at 9:32 pm | Permalink
“Why not encourage women not to become pregnant in the first place by choosing not to have sexual relations with a man?”
Adults in relationships have sex - get over it.
Are you proposing to outlaw ALL abortions?”
Men and women suffer because of the decisions they make.
It’s not about adults and sex. Men and women who choose to have sex in marraige are adults are they not?
Just how many abortions were there in 2007?
“So you are saying that anytime a woman decides to have an abortion, she should have one? No restrictions? Period?”
Yes I am. And that is the law.
And YOU “American” have betrayed your true cause here with:
“Why not encourage women not to become pregnant in the first place by choosing not to have sexual relations with a man?”
You are not pro life. You are “pro life”.
Of the strain anti sex.
I KNOW I used to suffer from it myself.
But you weren’t done looking foolish.
“It takes a mother and a father, in marraige, to properly raise a child!”
I’m sorry to hear that. I’m sorry my son’s mother did not feel the same way too.
And since MOST cases where a woman exercises choice are women of limited resources and single women, you have just disqualified them to properly raise a child according to your definition.
What other choice do you ask them to make?
Turn back time?
Granny, when Obama voted “Present” His vote shows up on the Senate record that he was PRESENT…. It does not show up in the Illinois Senate Record that Obama voted NO…
Now, do you want to keep on pushing lies, or do you want to discuss the issue??