Charlton Heston, who died Saturday at age 84, was not only one of the great movie icons but also an extremely effective spokeperson for the National Rifle Association, which he headed from 1998 to 2003.
The NRA benefited from his star power and dramatic, uncompromising stands for gun rights. In fact, his galvanizing attacks on Al Gore over gun control laws is credited by some with tipping the presidency to George W. Bush in 2000.
122 Comments
Randy…did you forget that Al Gore WON the election in 2000 (popular vote) and that the Supreme Court handed the election (electoral) to George (worst President ever) Bush?
How quickly the Republicans want to rewrite history…such an embarrassment.
The GORACLE lost his home state which cost him the election.
is credited by some with tipping the presidency to George W. Bush in 2000.
He was good in Planet of the Apes.
Al Gore lost(sic) because the RNC and MSM ran a bogus smear campaign against him — ‘Love Story’, etc.
Charlton Heston…
What a great American he was. He will be missed by many. He left a great legacy.
God Bless you Charlton Heston
die, die, die, pig, die
He was a fair actor, but it wasn’t like he was anything special. Art Clarke dying a couple months ago was something to mourn, though.
Charlton Heston was a great man, and will be missed.
It’s a shame that some Libs on this blog choose to make visceral personal attacks on a man after his death. (See last weekend’s posts)
While alive, Heston was relentless in his defense of Freedom in America, and thus he was very used to such attacks from the Left.
Heston carried on that fight for Freedom, and has now passed the torch to this generation to carry on the fight for Freedom.
The gun-banners Obama and Clinton, will also have to battle the NRA, as did Al Gore.
Hopefully, Freedom prevails again!
I volunteered for ‘Nam. What war did Hesston fight in?
WWII.
And Heston fought for the US Constitution, and the 2nd Amendment.
Freedom is fight against the enemies of America, both foreign and domestic.
Randy, nice blog post. I would guess you didn’t necessarily agree with some of what Heston stood for, as I emphatically do, but he was a “extremely effective spokeperson for the National Rifle Association” and a person of unquestionable work ethic, and I think honesty and integrity.
Thanks for not denigrating him in death.
Heston Left Cinematic, Political Mark
Apr 7 07:41 AM US/Eastern
By DAVID GERMAIN
AP Movie Writer
LOS ANGELES (AP) - Nancy Reagan was heartbroken over Charlton Heston’s death. President Bush hailed him as a “strong advocate for liberty,” while John McCain called Heston a devotee for civil and constitutional rights.
Even Michael Moore, who mocked Heston in his gun-control documentary “Bowling for Columbine,” posted the actor’s picture on his Web site to mark his passing.
Heston, who died Saturday night at 84, was a towering figure both in his politics and on screen, where his characters had the ear of God (Moses in “The Ten Commandments”), survived apocalyptic plagues (”The Omega Man”) and endured one of Hollywood’s most-grueling action sequences (the chariot race in “Ben-Hur,” which earned him the best- actor Academy Award).
Better known in recent years as a fierce gun-rights advocate who headed the National Rifle Association, Heston played legendary leaders and ordinary men hurled into heroic struggles.
“In taking on epic and commanding roles, he showed himself to be one of our nation’s most gifted actors, and his legacy will forever be a part of our cinema,” Republican presidential candidate McCain said in a statement that also noted Heston’s involvement in the civil-rights movement and his stand against gun control.
Heston’s jutting jaw, regal bearing and booming voice served him well as Marc Antony in “Julius Caesar” and “Antony and Cleopatra,” Michelangelo in “The Agony and the Ecstasy,” John the Baptist in “The Greatest Story Ever Told” and an astronaut on a topsy-turvy world where simians rule in “Planet of the Apes.”
“Charlton Heston was seen by the world as larger than life,” Heston’s family said in a statement. “We knew him as an adoring husband, a kind and devoted father, and a gentle grandfather with an infectious sense of humor. He served these far greater roles with tremendous faith, courage and dignity.”
The actor died at his home in Beverly Hills with his wife, Lydia, at his side, family spokesman Bill Powers said. He declined to comment on the cause of death or provide further details Sunday.
One of the biggest box-office draws of the 1950s, ’60s and ’70s, Heston’s work dwindled largely to small parts and narration and other voice roles from the 1980s on, including an uncredited cameo as an ape in Tim Burton’s 2001 remake of “Planet of the Apes.”
Shirley Jones, who co-starred with Heston in one of his last leading roles in the 1999 drama “Gideon,” said his talent as an actor sometimes is forgotten because of the epic characters he played.
“To me, he was the consummate leading man. He was tall, he was handsome, he was sensitive, he was gruff when he had to be. He was a great cowboy, he was perfect for those historical roles,” Jones said. “He could do everything, and there aren’t many actors around today who could.”
In 2002, near the end of his five years as president of the NRA, Heston disclosed he had symptoms consistent with Alzheimer’s disease.
The disclosure was soon followed by an unflattering appearance in Moore’s 2003 best documentary winner “Bowling for Columbine,” which took America to task for its gun laws.
Moore used a clip of Heston holding aloft a rifle at an NRA rally and proclaiming “from my cold, dead hands.” The director flustered the actor in an interview later in the film by pressing him on his gun- control stance. Heston eventually walked out on Moore.
Moore’s Web site, http://www.michaelmoore.com, on Sunday featured a photo of Heston, the date of his birth and death and a note from the actor’s family requesting that donations be made to the Motion Picture and Television Fund in lieu of flowers.
There was no other reaction on the site from Moore about Heston’s death. Moore did not immediately respond to e-mail and phone requests seeking comment.
Jones, who worked with Heston on “Gideon” near the beginning of his tenure as NRA president, said she discussed gun control with him and came to respect his stand, even though she disagreed with it. She said he told her his family grew up poor in the country and “had to go out and kill a deer if we wanted meat.”
“He was a caring, sweet gentleman who believed in his country,” Jones said. “He believed the Constitution said it’s OK, we have to defend ourselves.”
Like fellow conservative Ronald Reagan, Heston served as president of the Screen Actors Guild. Former first lady Nancy Reagan said in a statement that she was heartbroken to hear of his death.
“He was one of Ronnie’s and my dearest friends,” she said. “I will never forget Chuck as a hero on the big screen in the roles he played, but more importantly I considered him a hero in life for the many times that he stepped up to support Ronnie in whatever he was doing.”
Current Screen Actors Guild president Alan Rosenberg called Heston “a capable and visionary union leader” in a Sunday statement.
Bush—who in 2003 presented Heston the Presidential Medal of Freedom, the nation’s highest civilian honor—called Heston a “man of character and integrity, with a big heart.”
California Governor Arnold Schwarzenegger, who had Heston as a co-star in 1994’s “True Lies,” said in a statement that Heston “entertained millions of people around the world during his legendary film career.”
“He cared deeply about his craft and he loved his family, his work and his country with all his heart,” Schwarzenegger said.
Decades before his NRA leadership, Heston was a strong advocate for civil rights in the 1960s, joining marches and offering financial assistance.
Civil-rights leaders in Los Angeles held a moment of silence in Heston’s memory Sunday after an unrelated news conference.
Heston had contributed and raised thousands of dollars in Hollywood for Martin Luther King Jr.’s movement, said Earl Ofari Hutchinson, president of the Los Angeles Urban Policy Round Table.
“We certainly disagree with his position as NRA head and also his firm, firm, unwavering support of the unlimited right to bear arms,” Hutchinson said. But, he added, “Charlton Heston was a complex individual. He lived a long time, and certainly, there were many phases. The phases we prefer to remember were certainly his contributions to Dr. King and civil rights.”
Fans remember Heston for some of the most epic moments on film: Parting the Red Sea as Moses in “The Ten Commandments,” cursing his self-destructive species as he stumbles on the remnants of the Statue of Liberty in “Planet of the Apes,” tearing hell-bent through the chariot race in “Ben-Hur.”
“Ben-Hur” earned 11 Oscars, the most ever until 1997’s “Titanic” and “The Lord of the Rings: The Return of the King” tied it.
Born Charles Carter in a Chicago suburb on Oct. 4, 1923, Heston grew up in the Michigan wilderness, where his father operated a lumber mill.
Heston took up acting after serving in the Army during World War II. He took his professional name from his mother’s maiden name, Charlton, and the last name of his stepfather, Chester Heston, whom she married after his parents’ divorce.
After his movie debut in two independent films by a college classmate, Heston was put under contract by producer Hal B. Wallis (”Casablanca”). Cecil B. DeMille cast him as the circus manager in “The Greatest Show on Earth” and then as Moses in “The Ten Commandments.”
He followed with Orson Welles’ “Touch of Evil,” William Wyler’s “The Big Country” and the sea saga “The Wreck of the Mary Deare” before “Ben-Hur” elevated Heston to the top of Hollywood’s A-list.
His later films included “Earthquake,” “El Cid,” “The Three Musketeers,” “Midway” and “Soylent Green.”
In recent years, Heston drew as much publicity for his crusades as for his performances. In addition to his NRA work, he campaigned for Republican presidential and congressional candidates and against affirmative action.
He resigned from Actors Equity, claiming the union’s refusal to allow a white actor to play a Eurasian role in “Miss Saigon” was “obscenely racist.” He attacked CNN’s telecasts from Baghdad as “sowing doubts” about the allied effort in the 1990-91 Gulf War.
Heston also feuded with liberal Edward Asner, one of his successors as Screen Actors Guild president. In a statement Sunday, Asner said Heston “was a worthy opponent and certainly helped create work for a lot of actors.”
When Heston stepped down as NRA president, he told members his time in office was “quite a ride. … I loved every minute of it.”
Heston and his wife had a daughter, Holly Ann, and a son, Fraser Clarke, who played the infant Moses in “The Ten Commandments.”
In the 1990s, Heston’s son directed his father in several TV and big- screen films, including “Treasure Island” and “Alaska.”
The Hestons celebrated their golden wedding anniversary in 1994 at a party with Hollywood and political friends. They had been married 64 years when he died.
Associated Press reporter Bob Thomas contributed to this report.
Hey Libs?
Heston marched with Martin Luther King!
http://www.mcsm.org/hestonMLK.html
Some of the most racist “Jim Crow” laws, by the way, denied the 2nd Amendment right to Black people.
MILITARY SERVICE: Army Air Corp for 3 years-Stationed in the Aleutian Islands (1944)-Held the rank of Sergent
Attaway to keep them Nazi’s at bay!
Ok, I have to admit, he was a fervent advocater for you’re god-given right to have assault weapons, Max. But if ya ain’t smart enough to get them, legal or not, you ain’t smart enough to own one anyway.
I like how he took care of those damn dirty apes.
Heston marched with Martin Luther King!
So? Fred Phelps was a civil right attorney.
Robert Bork used to be a communist.
People are complex.
As for his previous politics, it seems he made his switch after 1968–another New Deal Dem who couldn’t understand or tolerate the Hippies, I suspect. Dirty damn apes, indeed!
Regarding his NRA tenure, though, that rambling speech Outie posted earlier said it all. Even in 1999, it seems the man’s mind was already starting to go.
How sad.
ghotiphaze
Posted April 7, 2008 at 1:26 pm | Permalink
MILITARY SERVICE: Army Air Corp for 3 years-Stationed in the Aleutian Islands (1944)-Held the rank of Sergent
Attaway to keep them Nazi’s at bay!
—————————-
A portion of the Aleutian Islands were actually captured and held by the Japanese in WWII. There were several very bloody battles there.
And that means he was in those battles?
Yo Fish, just because you don’t like what the man stood for, doesn’t mean you have to dishonor his service to his country.
But keep on, Libs like carrying their own shovel to bury themselves with.
Sorry, doesn’t fly. He was a decent actor. Nuff said to warrant mourning, but still not in the league of losing like Art Clarke a couple months ago.
BTW, I DO believe in the right to bear arms. Just you Cons scare me about it. Y’all are way too rabid about it.
So Fish, you choose to dishonor Heston’s military service then since you are unapologetic.
No one is rabid about anything that I’ve seen.
The characterization is all in your mind, rolling around in chaos, getting twisted with conspiracy theories and paranoia.
I don’t dishonor it. Just maintain it don’t mean squat. I’m sure you’re going to hold a vigil when I kick it as I was in the military.
liberals first trash the guy due to a “lack” of military experience.
Then, Heston’s experience is proven.
Now, Heston’s experience “don’t mean squat” —
Well, yes it DOES!
It means that you can not fault Heston for not having that experience!
Twist, spin, rotate, gyrate, Econ. Make up lies all you want.
All I’ve ever maitained in this thread is HE WAS A STINKIN’ ACTOR, nothing more, nothing less. I want you all to come in and laud all the fine work Brittany Spears has done when whe ODs. I mean you insist on consistency!
ghotiphaze
Posted April 7, 2008 at 2:02 pm | Permalink
Twist, spin, rotate, gyrate, Econ. Make up lies all you want.
All I’ve ever maitained in this thread is HE WAS A STINKIN’ ACTOR, nothing more, nothing less.
—
ghotiphaze
Posted April 7, 2008 at 1:26 pm | Permalink
MILITARY SERVICE: Army Air Corp for 3 years-Stationed in the Aleutian Islands (1944)-Held the rank of Sergent
Attaway to keep them Nazi’s at bay
—————————
Nuff said about “nothing more - nothing less”
When in doubt, the Libs pull out the “Nazi” moniker.
Econ101,
Yeah–and John Kerry didn’t earn those medals in Vietnam, and Iraq War vets who oppose the war aren’t “real” soldiers.
Give it a rest. Reactionaries only recognize veterans who lend moral authority to your ideological positions. If they don’t, they are smeared and destroyed.
How many children died from gunshot wounds as a result of Charlton Heston’s NRA advocacy? Rights without responsibilities–THAT’S the NRA.
I agree, CF. If he was such a staunch supporter of freedom for America, where was he when the patriot act was enacted?
When in doubt, the Libs pull out the “Nazi” moniker.
Damn, Ya think if I’da said Tojo, that statement woulda flew?
CF2K,
I don’t know. Why don’t you show us the CAUSAL link to how Charlton Heston’s NRA advocacy led directly to the death of all these children?
I’ll be waiting.
Hey, “Moses”?
How’s hell?
Well done Mr. Heston, well done. If you have earned the disrespect of such as CapnAmerica, truly you have lived well.
“How many children died from gunshot wounds as a result of Charlton Heston’s NRA advocacy? Rights without responsibilities–THAT’S the NRA.”
That’s the most asinine thing I have heard in a long while, though completely in keeping with what we can expect from CF2K.
Heston and the NRA DEMAND responsibility in all things and at all times with firearms, and severe punishment of those that don’t demonstrate responsibility or are lawless.
What a un-informed nitwit you are CF.
CF2K
Posted April 7, 2008 at 2:05 pm | Permalink
How many children died from gunshot wounds as a result of Charlton Heston’s NRA advocacy?
————————————————-
Actually CF is correct on this. Heston didn’t do enough to eliminate the gun-free zones or the VT shootings of those college children may have been prevented.
Gee….I guess I never thought what CF was saying was meant that way Max. I’ve got a lot to learn from you Max, thanks.
PS: I’m still not going to make nice to CF, period.
I don’t get how people worship of gun rights like a religion…it’s crazy. And everyone who is so passionate about the right to carry weapons all think alike…they’re nothing but clones of each other.
Invasion of the body snatchers?
I guess Charlton Heston was to the NRA crazies what Jesus is to the Christians.
“Praise the Lord and pass the ammunition”.
People think that having a gun is the equalavalent of being free. But they take no responsibility for promoting a cowboy culture of distrust and egotism. Such a culture degrades human society as a whole. The right to defend oneself of course should never be taken away, but it should be balanced with mutal cooperation and compassionate thinking.
Cat Posted April 7, 2008 at 3:55 pm |
“I don’t get how people worship of gun rights like a religion…it’s crazy.”
It’s not gun rights exclusively, it’s the freedom. Freedom from excessive government intervention in our lives, including firearms. It’s knowing that the government or law enforcement can’t protect you at a personal level. It’s knowing that the ‘government’ is made up of people with all the weaknesses of people, and the knowledge that the power of government can easily corrupt. It wasn’t the Chinese or German people that set out to commit atrocities prior to WW2, it was their government. The bill of rights, including the 2nd. Amendment, ensure our rights. The 2nd. Amendment just happens to be the most attacked of the bill of rights. You don’t see the 1st. attacked like you do the second….at least yet!
CF
John Kerry tossed his OWN medals, why should I value them, if Kerry does not?
Of course, Kerry also got a less than honorable discharge, which Jimmy Carter later upgraded for him.
And CF
There were many, many “phoney soldiers” who made fraudulent “press reports” from the war zone.
There is a problem with the MSM not doing fact checks on their “sources” like the FAKE Jesse MacBeth:
http://boards.historychannel.com/thread.jspa?threadID=800030687
“Now, recently, Jesse Macbeth, poster boy for the anti-war left, had his day in court. And you know what? He was sentenced to five months in jail and three years probation for falsifying a Department of Veterans Affairs claim and his Army discharge record. He was in the Army. Jesse Macbeth was in the Army, folks, briefly. Forty-four days before he washed out of boot camp. Jesse Macbeth isn’t an Army Ranger, never was. He isn’t a corporal, never was. He never won the Purple Heart, and he was never in combat to witness the horrors he claimed to have seen. You probably haven’t even heard about this. And, if you have, you haven’t heard much about it. This doesn’t fit the narrative and the template in the Drive-By Media and the Democrat Party”
—–
(Just like John Kerry used several “fake” veterans in his anti Vietnam War propaganda!!)
Seeing all of my old time heroes dying off is making me feel old, so long Charlton, thank you for the memories and the good times that came with it.
“Shall not be infringed”. Deal with it, nitwits.
Everything pointed to CH changing his MLK stance later in life.
I think I’m going to start making gold plated busts of CH, sell them to the gun nuts to drop to their knees and worship, and then I’ll be a rich woman.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080408/ap_on_el_pr/clinton_hospital_fact_check
Hillary vindicated in hospital death tragedy case
Paranoia abounds in America and gun nuts are all too happy to perpetuate the culture of fear that is so prevelant now in our society.
35,000 deaths by gun violence every year in America…many times more than any other industrialized country in the world. Sad.
35,000 deaths by gun violence
typical gun paranoid statement.
Most all of those killed are caused by illegal acquired guns (stolen) or non-registered (passed among gangs and criminals) guns.
I can’t think of too many other things that totally pissed me off more than the day I watch ‘ole chuck with his arrogant, defiant expression, challenging anyone to try and take away his guns “Out of my cold, dead hands!”..only two days after the massacre in Columbine…he was almost gleeful at the aftermath of that horrible tragedy…that was when I decided he was a truly evil man. I’m glad Micheal Moore caught him with his pants down and humilated that god damn asshole.
Guns just the same, Reg.
Anyone who devalues of human life and looks at the gun deaths as only “collateral damage” and secondary to gun rights is sick.
Illogical Mary, those deaths are caused by law breakers, who would do the same with bombs, knives or fire if they didn’t have guns.
Just like the law breakers who speed in automobiles who think they are ‘pro’ drivers and cause the majority of deaths in automobile accidents.
People breaking the law cause deaths.
It’s much harder to beat someone or stab them to death. How many driveby stabbings do you hear about? How many children have gotten killed because they were caught between two people beating each other up?
The difference is that guns are much more lethal..it’s a little hard to kill someone across a parking lot with a knife.
Michael Moore’s interview with Hesston is my favorite of Chuck’s screen career. He looked REAL for once.
Like a real bigot and fool.
The rest is really rather mediocre and over the top.
You guys are the ones who are illogical…you refuse to look at the facts, and that is that the more plentiful and available guns are..the more deaths we have by gun violence.
No other industrialized country has the gun deaths we….why do you think that is? It’s not too hard to figure out if you’re willing to pull your head out of the sand.
Here’s a link comparing the number of guns deaths in the US compared to other countrys.
http://www.iansa.org/documents/GunDeathRates.pdf
Off to bed…long day ahead tomorrow. I’ve been overloaded with work this week…
too many sick people out there.
Goodnite!
I can walk into a sportsmans warehouse, buy a 50 cal pistol and ammo, if I’m not on any list, walk out of the place and start shooting. Does that make sense in today’s environment? No waiting period, and a cursory background check.
I don’t have a problem with gun ownership, but I do have a problem with the relative ease with which they can be bought. There should be a waiting period on any firearms purchase. All firearms sales and purchases should go through a licensed dealer. And ALL purchases and sales should be logged and registered, with a cert of barrel markings, serial number and gun ownership history. Just my humble opinion.
The cats out of the bag Mary. Criminals have guns. Americans have the right to defend themselves. Police can’t do it for you.
What can be done anyway; start confiscating guns from law abiding citizens? They can have my guns when they get them:
“From my cold, dead hands”!
““From my cold, dead hands”!
Every time I see or hear that line?
And coming from the people it comes from?
I feel warm all over.
OMGosh–
Heston is running back and forth on a rifle range while cackling demons shoot him.
Every time they hit, a bell rings and he reverses direction.
Karma is such a beyotch . . .
Alzheimers begins affecting thought at about the same age Ben Hur shifted from being a Kennedy Democrat to a Reagan Republican. Kindered souls, I suppose.
CF2K,
Still waiting for your evidence.
Mary,
You have been fooled. The NRA had scheduled their meeting in Columbine well in advance of the shooting. The NRA cancelled most of it’s activities except for that main meeting which would have far too costly to move.
That clip of Heston was another one of Moores editing tricks. The speech where Heston said “from my cold dead hands” took place a year later in North Carolina.
You want facts? Then start by actually looking at the facts and stop being a sucker for the anti-gun movements crap.
JM Walker,
Oh no! You could walk into sportsmans wharehouse, wait 10 says, walk out and start shooting!
Seriously, how many shootings in this country took place immediately after a LEGAL gun purchase.
You want to pass feel good laws so that you can feel good, not so you can prevent crime.
Mary,
I already posted to you the number of gun deaths in this country verses gun ownership for the past 20 years.
There is NO correlation between more guns = more death.
My numbers were from the CDC.
Of course you ignored those facts last time. As usual you walk away from every one of these discussions as soon as you are proven wrong. Then you come back next month with your same old BS.
“The NRA had scheduled their meeting in Columbine well in advance of the shooting. ”
To go on with it was in poor taste.
Joining late.
Did Mary cite a source yet for her made-up figure of 35,000 annual gun deaths in the US?
Yes, it’s an NRA video. Even so, watch what has happened in Great Britain since they banned guns:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TkS2BRoCd2I
Max,
It is about right. There are roughly 10,000 people killed with guns every year and about 25,000 suicides with guns every year.
I was lookin for the precise number. I posted it several times for Mary in the past.
I might look later. The 39th time might be the charm!
Great video Zelda and a very important message.
Oops, sorry, this one is better. It’s an update from just last month, and shows how crime there has increased, not decreased.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qGVAQOUi6ec
Scary video Zelda. Chills ran up my spine.
And they say it can’t happen here…
Excellent second video as well Zelda.
My favorite line in the video was the last line.
“Freedom is only for those who have the guts to defend it.”(sic)
I again make the point that gun violence is caused by criminals, and the best way to stop gun violence is to combat the “don’t snitch” ghetto mentality.
I would like to see the NRA run ads that say:
SNITCH! We did it for MLK! Talk to the Police!
and then show this picture:
http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/ARTICLE1/balcony.jpg
Rap music stars discourage talking to the police.
Therefore, murderers go free!
Maybe after the United States Supreme Court tells Washington D.C. that they can not ban handguns, our leaders will start to focus on the real problem: CRIMINALS!
There have been 20 homicides of teenagers in the last few months, in Chicago alone.
If the Rev. Wright and Senator Obama had been telling kids to talk to the police, and that it was OK to “snitch” maybe some of those lives could have been saved!
Econ SPEWS >>>>
“If the Rev. Wright and Senator Obama had been telling kids to talk to the police, and that it was OK to “snitch” maybe some of those lives could have been saved!”
Of Course, Econ, you have no proof that Obama and Rev. Wright have NOT told kids to talk to police, and that they can stop crime by being a “snitch”
But, Econ, well, he likes this line best:
Truth??? Truth??? We dont need no stinkin truth!! Just need to lie enough, so people will believe!! Just like the strong arm Nazis used to do in Germany!! Amazing the similarities!!
Mary, you have to subtract the suicides. That terrible problem needs to be addressed on another level. The gun is handy, and effective. But without it, the person would jump off a bridge, into a train, etc.
The reasons for guns (in order of acceptance by the public, my opinion) are:
1. Target Shooting
2. Hunting
3. Self Defense
4. Defense against tyranny
Mr Obama has a lot of press lately because he allows for numbers 1 and 2, but doesn’t think 3 or 4 should be allowed.
Mary, if you lived in an area where criminals prowled like the devil himself, where the police were slow to respond, and your rented apartment’s security lights were burned out, wouldn’t you want the right to defend yourself from an intruder? What if you were older, or otherwise perceived to be “weak?”
What if nature calls the next time you’re on I-135 to Salina, and the bad guys spot you at the rest stop? Do you think your cell phone would matter a whit?
We live in a world, Mary, where the bad guys are out there. They already have guns, knives, and more. Criminals, by definition, choose not to obey the law.
So why on earth would we pass laws to disable the good people from defending themselves, and do nothing to punish the bad guys?
Because it’s easier to swallow. Because we think that passing a law is like waiving a magic wand to make things go away.
Watch for the Supreme Court’s decision on the D.C. case. See that the High Court of the Land will declare the 2nd Amendment guarantees an individual’s right to keep and bear arms.
Then turn your attention to the societal, cultural, economic and penal reasons for all this bad behavior by criminals. That will be a harder problem to solve, but I’ll be working with you on that one!
Chas
Show me where they HAVE!
It is easy to say that I can not prove he never did.
I can not prove a negative.
With some very easy searches, YOU should be able to prove that Obama and/or Pastor Wright (and his buddies Farrakhan, Jackson and Sharpton) have told young people to call the police, when they witness a murder!
It would be very easy for you to prove me wrong.
— but you can’t can you?
“Don’t snitch” code is killing Black kids:
http://teamowens313.wordpress.com/2007/04/23/dont-snitch-street-code-is-killing-black-kids/
And watch as Mary doesn’t return to address those facts she is always talking about.
Two times now I have told the truth about the Bowling for Columbine video and she has not responded, but keeps telling the same lie from that movie over and over again.
Mary,
The movie was a fraud and you were fooled. Lets talk about those facts shall we?
Naw Nathan, Mary won’t be back. She runs and hides on this issue.
She needs to get to the range just once. That is so fun to take a newbie to the range and watch their expression change from worry to joy!
After going thru the safety training, shooting instruction, then shooting training, they all say:
“Wow! This is fun!”
Ignorance is a terrible condition for the anti-gunners to be in. They fear the unknown, a very natural response. If they aren’t afraid to learn, then there is hope for them.
In that video that Zelda linked to, I thought it was very sad that English Olympic Shooting Team Members had to travel to other countries in order to practice their sport.
And of course, the most eye opening feature of the video is that since the banning of handguns and sporting rifles in England, gun crime by criminals has sky-rocketed!
I couldn’t watch the whole video.
Very sad to see The People marching in the streets, waiting in lines carrying their guns to turn in to the police. How many criminals do you think were turning their guns in?
“That is so fun to take a newbie to the range and watch their expression change from worry to joy!”
Huh?
Yeah I had a friend took me to the gun range once.
Paying money to shoot at targets.
Wheeeeee!
And the COMPANY at the place! My what a cosmopolitan group hangs out there!
Cosmopolitan is too diverse for you? I thought Libs embraced diversity.
“Paying money to shoot targets.” That’s so funny, you know. Shouldn’t everything in life be FREE? Government should pay for absolutely EVERYTHING!
I believe you have proved my point and reaffirmed my position “Max”.
Shooting 22 LR with a Browning Buckmark is very economical, and fun!
2 cents per round and a $300 very accurate target pistol - Priceless!
I can’t wait to see the spin that the WeBlog puts on the next SCOTUS decision!
“I already posted to you the number of gun deaths in this country verses gun ownership for the past 20 years.
There is NO correlation between more guns = more death.
My numbers were from the CDC.
Of course you ignored those facts last time. As usual you walk away from every one of these discussions as soon as you are proven wrong. Then you come back next month with your same old BS.”
We have more gun deaths than any other industrialized country. I posted the link…but as usual, you gunnies don’t ever let facts get in the way of your views. I’ll post it again for those of you who didn’t get it the last time.
I don’t run away from the gun discussions…I have to work for a living and so blogging isn’t my big priority in life. I refuse to spend hours on the blog arguing with those who don’t ever get it. Sorry, but you’re not really worth my time.
The facts speak for themselves.
http://www.iansa.org/documents/GunDeathRates.pdf
I’m sorry, that was mean…what I mean’t to say was you’re really not worth THAT much of my time.
Here’s another link that gives some interesting FACTS.
http://www.gun-control-network.org/GF01.htm
“Facts” from the Gun-Control network!
Right.
I’d rather see facts from the Criminal Control network.
Some would rather address inanimate objects, vs the criminals.
Let’s talk about the 2,000,000 crimes prevented by people using a firearm for self-defense EVERY YEAR!
One more thing before I go back to work….I’m offended by Nathan’s statemnt that 25,000 guns deaths are suicides…that doesn’t devalue the cost of easy access to guns..especially since many who suicide are teenagers. When a suicidal person tries to use a less lethal form of killing themselves, the have a much better chance of surviving their attempt and can then maybe get the help they so desperately need. Nathan’s and others attitudes that it’s only people with mental illness and shouldn’t be a factor in the discussion regarding gun control seems to really go against the Christian values so many gun enthusiasts say they hold near and dear.
Plus, almost 5,000 children get killed each year by guns violence. I think that is something to be alarmed about…but again, you guys don’t really care about the human cost as much as you do about protecting liberal gun laws.
That’s all…I’m not “running away”, I’m stating what I know and now I’m going back to work. See ya later :)
Sorry Max, you get your figures from teh gun rages…don’t question my sources when your’s are so biased.
Good bye now…BTW, don’t you have a job, Max? You seem to spend a lot of time at the keyboard. Does your boss know?
“teh gun rages” Whay I mean to say is “the gun rags”
I’m in a hurry ‘bye.
Mary,
Here you are with that 5,000 children number again. Most of those “children” are gang members or are not really “children” at all when you start looking at the age they consider a child to be.
You twist and manipulate and play on emotion. That is all you have in these discussions.
I notice you have no comment about being fooled by Bowling for Columbine?
Mary,
Nothing in my statement said anything more than the simple fact that 25,000 of those deaths are by suicide.
Comparing our country to other countries simply by gun ownership is a flawed study.
Our country has a problem with violence not guns.
We have had this conversation several times now. The only one of the two of us who doesn’t get it is you.
Every time you come back like a broken record player saying the same things over and over again. Everytime I prove you wrong and you run away.
Please don’t blame it on your work either. You have enough time to keep coming back to post your same old flawed arguments which I have proven wrong time and time again, just not enough time to stick around and own up to it.
Mary,
Once again, if more guns = more death then why have the gun death rates in this country not gone up with the number of gun owners and numbers of guns owned?
They don’t. It is a simple minded emotional ploy to simply assert that more guns = more death.
You have been fooled by the anti-gun websites and by Bowling for Columbine.
It is time you owned up to it.
If you don’t like guns, fine. But don’t come in here with your bad arguments based on lies by the likes of Moore.
If what you say is true, Nathan..then why do countries with strict gun laws and few guns available to the citizens have a LOT less gun deaths? And how do you explain why the USA has more gun deaths than any other industrialized country? It’s just common sense that if a country is flooded with guns, there will be more deaths due to gun violence..and the stats bear that out. I don’t know how you come up with the idea that the number of guns available has nothing to do with the number of deaths caused by gun shot wounds. The studies show otherwise, and the links to those studies are readily available if you take the time to look.
I know it’s not realistic to think we can take guns away from every American…but we need much stricter regulations so they aren’t as available and more severe consequences for those who have them illegally. Unless you don’t really care about the human cost, which you talk like you don’t, then just keep things the same as they are and the death toll will continue as always.
Folks who say they are using common sense to come to their conclusions usually aren’t. They are using emotion. :lol:
“If you don’t like guns, fine. But don’t come in here with your bad arguments based on lies by the likes of Moore.”
Unlike the lies you believe by the likes of John Lott and David Mustard?
I have reliable sources for my statistics..I’ve posted them here numerous times.
35,000 Americans needlessly dying each year from gun violence is shameful…sorry you don’t think that number is significant enough to consider changing anything…I guess for you and those like you that’s a small price to pay for the right to own and carry any firearm you choose.
I happen to think it’s tragic how the easy access and availabilty of guns has caused so much violence, fear, paranoia, and gun deaths in our country.
Even you admit you don’t feel safe to go out in public without carrying a gun. What’s wrong with this whole picture?
I don’t think so Box, all my views on gun control are based on reliable statistics, not emotion. Even though I personally have been hurt by gun violence.
When you declare “You’ll have to pry my gun out of my cold, dead hands”..now that’s emotion, not coomon sense.
When they were writing the second Amendment, the arms that folks could bear looked like the antique that addled old Charlie there is holding up.
I do not believe the founding fathers would have been so vague and open if they knew what weapons would someday exist.
If the only gun people could own and carry was a shotgun, that would go a long way to cut down on a lot of the violence. It should be a single shot, too.
I come back again and again with the facts, each time PROVING Nathan wrong, and Nathan just comes up with the same ‘ole tired arguments and then runs away..everytime!!
I LOVED Bowling for Columbine..did you even see it Nathan? I thought it made a lot of sense..and what makes me think you haven’t seen the movie is that the conclusion that Michael Moore makes it the same as yours…that we have a problem with violence in this country…not neccessarily guns. Although I know he took some liberty with some of the facts, many things he brought out in that movie were undeniable. It was a good documentary.
“Naw Nathan, Mary won’t be back. She runs and hides on this issue.
She needs to get to the range just once. That is so fun to take a newbie to the range and watch their expression change from worry to joy!
After going thru the safety training, shooting instruction, then shooting training, they all say:
“Wow! This is fun!”
Ignorance is a terrible condition for the anti-gunners to be in. They fear the unknown, a very natural response. If they aren’t afraid to learn, then there is hope for them.”
Sorry to disappoint you, Max…I know how to shoot a gun..actually I’m a pretty good shot. I’m getting my CC license next month along with my brother and sister, it’s sort of a “family bonding” thing. Did you and Nathan know that Michael Moore is a card carrying member of the NRA? Has been most of his life.
I plan to get a gun rack and a toy rifle to carry in back window of my Echo.
I go into bad neighborhoods all the time and at all times of the day and night, Zelda. I’m careful, but I don’t feel particulary afraid. I think the media does a great job of perpetrating the culture of fear and paranoia in America that causes so many to think they need to be armed to survive out the in public…I work and live in the real world and it’s really not that scary. More good things happen than bad…but you’d never know it from watching the news.
“I don’t think so Box, all my views on gun control are based on reliable statistics, not emotion. Even though I personally have been hurt by gun violence.”
Mary, I respectfully ask you how you were “hurt by gun violence”? I suspected that from the beginning when reading some of your post in the past. I am sincerely sorry to hear that has happened by the way.
“When you declare “You’ll have to pry my gun out of my cold, dead hands”..now that’s emotion, not coomon sense.”
That is really a similar statement to Patrick Henry’s “Give my liberty or give me death” and some people sincerely feel that to live under an oppressive government is as bad or worse than death.
The 2nd. Amendment, and my love of firearms, are both related to freedom, self-protection and self-reliance, as well as sport. It is not in using them to commit lawless violence. Automobiles provide freedom yet kill thousands more people than guns, yet no one, except maybe cosmos with his AGW rants, is clamoring to give up cars. Every state that has adopted concealed carry has seen their violent crime statistics drop not go up. And that’s because responsible people are arming themselves and putting the bad guys on notice, so to speak. There is evil in the world and getting rid of guns simply allows it a freer hand to wreck havoc in society. There will always be evil people hurting others and restricting firearms only effects those that abide by the law, not the lawless, they ignore and take advantage of that.
“I work and live in the real world and it’s really not that scary.”
It never is for anybody until something bad happens to them, or someone close to them, then they wish they could do it over again and do it differently.
“More good things happen than bad…but you’d never know it from watching the news.”
That maybe, but it only takes one bad thing to ruin or end a life.
I’m not arguing, you are absolutely free to live and do as you please, but….so am I and I choose to be armed when I decide, and think everybody should be able to if not living outside the law and with respect for others.
Boxlock posted April 8, 2008 at 8:04 pm
“Automobiles provide freedom yet kill thousands more people than guns, yet no one, except maybe cosmos with his AGW rants, is clamoring to give up cars.”
Boxlock LIES re my “clamoring to give up cars”.
http://www.oilendgame.com/ReadTheBook.html
I suggest that Boxlock’s nic, on the new and improved WE Blog that requires registration, be something like “Boxlock_the_LIAR”.
cosmos, go to your room you insolent child.
What a despicable human being.
• Married to his college sweetheart, Lydia, for 64 years.
• Beloved father of two successful children, one a Hollywood director.
• Unabashed Christian and church attender.
• First among his peers; president of the Screen Actors Guild a record six times.
• Served his country in World War II as a B-25 crewman.
• Campaigner for civil rights; protested as early as 1961, long before it became popular, and marched on Washington alongside Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr.
• Protector of the unborn; provided the introduction for Dr. Bernard Nathanson’s great pro-life film, Silent Scream.
• Champion of public decency; shamed Time Warner into dropping rapper Ice-T’s contract because of his song celebrating the murder of police officers.
• Defender of individual liberty; president of the National Rifle Association.
Heckler,
Excellent post…that says a lot about the man.
Why is it that the really good men, almost heroes in their own time, are so hated by some?
It speaks a lot about those bashing him.
I did meet Heston once.
At a house off of East Central, in Wichita.
He was Guest of Honor at a Sam Brownback fundraiser.
I saw him a couple of other times too, but this is the only time I got to talk with him. I have a picture somewhere, can’t find it.
Mary,
I have watched Bowling for Columbine three times.
I watched it once just to watch it. I watched it again to see the errors.
I then watched it a 3rd time pausing it over and over again.
Watch the speech that Heston gave and Moore uses saying it was in Denver. You will see that Heston’s shirt, tie, and the background changes inbetween the cuts Moore does.
That is because Moore took a speech given one year later and spliced it into the Denver speech.
You have been fooled Mary. Watch the movie again.
I can point out to you about 20 such deceptions in his movie.
Come over to my Dad’s house and we can grill some steaks and watch that movie one night and I will show you the obvious lies.
Mary,
“If what you say is true, Nathan..then why do countries with strict gun laws and few guns available to the citizens have a LOT less gun deaths?”
=============================================
What I am saying isn’t based on other countries.
You have said over and over again in the simplist of terms that more guns = more gun deaths. The data from the CDC proves you wrong. For the past 20 years more guns have been bought in this country and the number of gun owners has gone up. Yet gun deaths have either not gone up or have been going slightly down. That proves you wrong.
Mary,
“And how do you explain why the USA has more gun deaths than any other industrialized country?”
================================================
I have told you several times now that we have a problem with violence in this country, not guns. There are many things which America has more of, like serial killings. Having more guns doesn’t prove anything. We have more violent crime in general as well. Our society has developed like this and it is not as simple as blaming it on guns.
Simply showing a chart which shows other countries number of guns vs gun deaths doesn’t prove anything. It is nothing but the simplist of speculation by you to say otherwise.
Mary,
“Even you admit you don’t feel safe to go out in public without carrying a gun. What’s wrong with this whole picture?”
================================================
Mary, I have never said any such thing. I feel like a sheep if I go out without my pistol. Of course, for you this is all about feelings, not reality. The truth is you might feel safe, but how you feel has nothing to do with reality.
Mary,
“Did you and Nathan know that Michael Moore is a card carrying member of the NRA?”
================================================
So what? All you have to do is pay them a due and you get a card. Anyone can.
Doesn’t mean you actually support the NRA or agree with them.
Moore made a movie with nothing but lies about the NRA. Hardly a friend to them.
You haven’t proven anything Nathan, the fact that we have a problem with violence AND easy access to guns is the reason why we have so many gun deaths in this country. That’s been proven. You can deny it all you want. It’s much easier to kill someone or yourself with a gun. The lethality of guns is why there are so many deaths when anger or desperation gets out of control.
If we had stricter laws and restrictions on guns, if we limited access to them, the death rate would go down.
What happens when people get killed in car accidents? The industry tries to make cars safer, we enforce speed limits, hold irresposible drivers accountable, etc.
Whay happens when children drown in swimming pools? Laws are past to require those with swimming pools to erect fences, have locked gates and they have really high home insurance premiums.
Look how many people die from smoking related illnesses, what do we do? We don’t allow cigarettes to be advertised on TV, minors can’t buy them, we have all sort of educational programs aimed at keeping kids smoke free, tax cigarettes heavily, and smokers pay higher premiums for health and life insurance.
But…35,000 die each year from gun wounds, either perpetrated by someone else, self inflicted, or accidentally…and what do we do? The cons scream about how any regulation whatsoever is an infrigemnet on their “rights”. I think it’s sad that human life is so devalued by those who are obsessed with gun rights and put the issue on the same level as one’s religion. I’m not the emotional one…there is nothing crazy about wanting to see gun violence stop..to me, the human cost isn’t worth the opportunity for anyone to have a gun. As far as I can see..it’s those who are screaming about gun rights being more important than anything else that are the emotional and out of touch ones.
If you really believe you can’t feel safe unless you’re carry a weapon..then I feel sorry for you..because you’re the one who has bought into the hype and paranoia that the media loves to generate..you’re the ones who’s been had, Nathan, Max, and Boxlock.
OK, I’m not running away..I have to go to bed now.
See ya on the flip side!
“I feel like a sheep if I go out without my pistol. ”
I think this speaks to deep personal issues that you have Nathan.
Mary,
Why do you keep avoiding the Bowling for Columbine issue?
You have been fooled. It is time you owned up to it.
Mary,
Of course guns are lethal. No one is arguing that. If you want to look comparing data from different countries then why is it that those countries which end up enacting restrictive laws against gunownership end up having an increase in violent crime with guns?!
Look at Australia and Great Britian.
The problem is not that I oppose any restriction, it is that almost every restriction people like you propose will do nothing to stop gun deaths.
The proposals people like you make only make it harder for law abiding citizens to own or purchase guns.
25,000 of those deaths are from suicide. You tell me what law you want to pass which will stop that.
I would love to hear it.
People who are going to kill themselves will. A Marine I worked with threw herself off a Bridge. I suppose we should outlaw pedestrians on brdiges too?
That leaves about 10,000 other deaths from guns. Less than 1,000 are accidents.
That leaves about 9,000 deaths.
Not to say those deaths are insignificant, but when you subtract gang violence you are then left with far fewer than that.
You have not proved anything Mary. The only thing you posted was a general comparison to other countries. What does that prove? Nothing.
Come up with a time that you can stay and debate this issue and I will be here.
Nathan
Posted April 9, 2008 at 11:59 am | Permalink
Mary,
“Even you admit you don’t feel safe to go out in public without carrying a gun. What’s wrong with this whole picture?”
================================================
…… I feel like a sheep if I go out without my pistol. Of course, for you this is all about feelings, not reality. The truth is you might feel safe, but how you feel has nothing to do with reality.”
and you feel like a man with that pistol strapped on —so what your saying then is your just a paranoid well armed sheep ,,,,,
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