Barack Obama’s “bitter†comment has revived talk of Thomas Frank’s 2004 book arguing that lower-middle-class heartlanders vote against their economic self-interest when they vote Republican, the unfortunately titled “What’s the Matter With Kansas?†The author weighs in on the controversy in the Wall Street Journal, taking no side about what he calls Obama’s “tactless assertion that the hard-done-by clutch guns and irrationally oppose free-trade deals†but noting that it is conservatism that has spawned a “bitterness industry.†Frank concludes: “The landmark political fact of our time is the replacement of our middle-class republic by a plutocracy. If some candidate has a scheme to reverse this trend, they’ve got my vote, whether they prefer Courvoisier or beer bongs spiked with cough syrup.â€
127 Comments
You know I’ve been thinking maybe the reason that Republicans are so bent out of shape about that comment is because it rings true. I mean you hear nathan always talking about how he needs to protect himself from all the boogeymen out there all the time…a product of his own doing.
What’s the matter with Kansas was a good book, and I think many of the points are correct.
You’re going to get blasted as a liberal!
She calls it the ‘unfortunately titled’…yeah we know what side of the aisle Rhonda is on. There is never a doubt.
The title was very appropriate. I realized many decades ago that the Republican party used morality and moral issues to get their rank and file to vote against their own economic issues. Why I quit being a republican. Franks just put the obvious into writing.
What a couple of mindless ‘jackasses’, oh…I mean Democratic Donkeys, posting above.
Political_Momma try expanding your horizons beyond this typically left biased blog and read the news, or listen to it, or do something to wakeup to the extent of crime committed by those “boogeymen”. What a dim view when just because ‘it hasn’t happened to me’ you assume that it won’t. It hasn’t happened yet to anyone of us until it does.
Personally, I think you are too afraid and lazy to take the measures necessary to protect yourself with anything actually capable of doing so, you realize that fact and simply hide behind the reticule of those that are responsible enough to do so.
Oh…and GOOD MORNING.
Does anybody mind explaining what the basis is for claiming that “Republicans vote against their ecnonomic interests”?
All I read in the thread intro and the “weighs in” link to Franks article is pure crap.
Perhaps there are a few thoughtful Democrats out there who can actually articulate the basis for the WEBlog’s shameless plug.
ecnonomic s/b economic.
The FBI crime statistics are based on every one hundred thousand, otherwise saying for every one hundred thousand in population. There will be X amount of Burglaries, X amount of Rapes and so on. It like if you live in a town with 10 thousand population and the statistic states there is one murder per every one hundred thousand. Then one murder will happen every ten years, of course my point is that you could use this as a guild as to how likely it would be that you will be a victim.
There are two realities, one is that there is no way of actually knowing if it will be you whom becomes the statistic. The second is for the most part the odds are in your favor in Wichita that it will not be you. I still toy with the idea of getting a CCP, I doubt to be honest I would ever need a firearm to defend myself or others. But is there a possibility? Of course if you were to ask anyone whom has been robbed, raped, assaulted or even get a medium and ask a murder victim. They would tell you they did not expect to be a victim. Most people are mindful and stay way from the places that it is more likely, but it is more likely in your home than on the street.
What a dim view when just because ‘it hasn’t happened to me’ you assume that it won’t. It hasn’t happened yet to anyone of us until it does.
Boxlock,
Other than the above being nothing more than a personal attack on Political_Mom (especially) and Phantom, would you please explain the above? The statement is so convoluted, I need a translator.
I’m sorry to use him as an example.
But just for instance? There he is.
Writerdog is a soulfull, working class guy.
And he is for Ron Paul!
When I worked aircraft, I knew MANY people like this. Working class people that vote Republican. Don’t ask a reformed one of them like me to explain them. I’ve been trying to figure them out for years.
And this particular member of the “hard done by” does not clutch guns or a bible.
In fact if there was a God I’d have a long list of grievances for him. And if I ever did get a gun. it wouldn’t be to protect my meager existence.
It’d be to cut into “the replacement of our middle-class republic by a plutocracy. ” Best build those walls high richies. SOME of us get that we are being pissed on and are getting pissed off.
“BlueJay” notes –
“SOME of us get that we are being pissed on and are getting pissed off.”
“Tinkle-down economics.”
Predestined,
I shall assume yours was an honest question and not flaming.
What is stated, and I don’t think that cryptically, is that some people, ie. Political_Mom, have the opinion they are safe, and nothing violent will ever happen to them causing harm, simply because it never has happened to them in the past. Therefore, they feel it won’t ever in the future either. That’s what was is meant by my saying “just because ‘it hasn’t happened to me’ you assume that it won’t”. Well, it very well could in the future. For instance, I have never been in a auto accident that resulted in injury, so why should I wear a seat belt. Or, I have never been in a motorcycle accident, so why should I have to wear a confining helmet. I have several fire extinguishers but have never had a fire. Does that mean it will never happen in the future…of course not. And, simply because P_Mom hasn’t had a problem with violent crime does not mean it can’t happen to her in the future.
My problem with her attitude is she ridicules those like Nathan that choose to attempt to be prepared to defend themselves and their families based on her false assumptions.
Got it?
RFL since you asked, one of the core believes of the Republican party is that business operates best and is more profitable with little or no restrictions and taxes. Which in reality is sound since business is what makes a economy in a capitalist economy. The problem comes when business forget one of the key basis for their success. They have a symbolic relationship with the consumer and the consumer is the workers.
And to a degree other business those that are a competitor and those that are not seen as related.
In what the point is that is being sited, the way it is being done is not healthy for the economy as a whole.
With manufacturing and not sales being the heart of a country’s economy and manufacturing jobs being the better paying for the population as a whole. Those that are not directly a part of the profit being made by the cutting of overhead. Are suffering, the cut in overhead also means a cut in their buying power. Plainly, if the manufacturing job goes out the door. And the next job is in retail then it means a cut in the hourly wage.
Business has been short sighted in this, forgetting their consumer base is directly tied to their workers wages. Lower middle class Republicans by voting for a person that is either active or enabling in these losses. Are cutting their own throat, but because of the core believe they do not see it or overlooking it.
The result has been that these lower middle class turn to emotional issues that have been taken up by the GOP.
Such side issues that have nothing to do with the economy, Abortions, Gun rights and religion, all of which are core beliefs on a personal level. In doing so their are enabling the very forces that are causing their income to go down and their good paying jobs to be replaced be someone that is paid less. I have seen the effect that Obama was pointing to about rural people. I once lived in Sterling Ks., at the time there were only 1,400 non-agricultural jobs in the entire county. When an employer shut down there it was a major blow. You have build your life there, home, schools and friends but now you either have to move to where the jobs are. Or live in poverty in a place that is bleeding dry. In that case it is natural to turn to your personal core beliefs. Or become a Democrat whom still thinks like a Republican, “a Okie Democrat!”.
SOME of us get that we are being pissed on and are getting pissed off.”
“Tinkle-down economics.”
LOL back then I thought of getting a tee-shirt made that read:
In the flows and eddies of trickle down economics it has become painfully apparent that someone place a dam upstream from me!”.
Writerdog-
NOt bad, but what you fail to take into account is the I want it now and I want lots of it/microwave/throw away mentality of todays general population. They could care less where something comes from when they BUY it. Wal-Mart and Target parking lots are full of cars with union stickers on them. Nobody gives a damn where it comes from, or if it’s a less less quality, as long as it’s CHEAPER and they can buy more stuff.
That’s all the consumer really gives a damn about. How cheap is it, and can I get more of it?
US Manufacturers slowly give way to making the crap overseas, in order to compete. You can see this in consumer product after consumer product–market share being taken over by cheap imports. Personally, I look for the made in usa label. I will also pay up to about 15 or 20% more for american made products. Most want cheap as they can get
Ever notice which party is dominant in the ’survivalist’ mentality and philosophy? They cut their own throats to the extent that they cringe in fear that someone will try and take away what little they’ve managed to squirrel away.
Writerdog, a very eloquent explanation, but at a gut level I’m sure the reader knew this, even as he’ll foolishly try and deny the assertions.
Got it, Boxlock. And yes, it was an honest question.
However, I can’t agree with you 100%. I don’t think P_Mom believes it won’t happen to her. Those of us who choose not have an arsenal of weapons at hand aren’t blind to the dangers of life. We take precautions, just as most people do. We just don’t do it with a firearm.
A child can’t be killed by picking up a seatbelt, a helmet, or a fire extenguisher. I’ve never heard of anyone dying while cleaning those things, either. When a house is robbed, how many times does a burglar steal a seatbelt, helment, or extinguisher and use it to kill someone?
I have never been in a motorcycle accident, so why should I have to wear a confining helmet. I have several fire extinguishers but have never had a fire.
Even in your own words, you’ve made a choice about how to protect yourself. The first because of law. The second because of common sense.
Thamas Frank PRESUMES that he, alone, KNOWS what the “economic interests” are, in a very large group of people.
It is PRECISELY because of the arrogance of liberals like Frank, that we have so many “middle class conservatives!”
Frank does very little to determine what our “interests” might be. Frank does very little to determine why the middle class might NOT want to hand responsibility for our lives over to the government.
In typical, condescending format, Frank tells US what is best for US!
Screw Frank!
If a class of people is truly harmful to the middle class, it is the lower class.
Besides, Barrack Obama belongs to a Church that preaches that people should AVOID being middle class, does he not? Michelle Obama tells kids to avoid the middle class and avoid corporate America.
You can not have it BOTH ways liberals. You can not look down your noses at the middle class, and then expect to lead the middle class.
What YOU have depends on YOU!
What YOU make of yourself depends on YOU!
Tearing down the rich does not build up the poor, in any way shape or form!
Envy is a deadly sin.
Prank preaches envy and he wonders why his “church” is never full.
Most people will not die prior to their children reaching adulthood.
However, it is smart to buy life insurance, in the event that you leave children behind.
Most people will never give CPR. Yet the cases of individual lives being saved by CPR would never happen, if not for people who planned ahead and learned how to do it.
The REAL reason liberals do not want individuals to protect themselves?
Liberals want government to do everything for us, and those who wish to protect themselves are a threat to the “state” — in the mind of a liberal.
It does not seem to make any difference to the liberals that the police could not possibly have arrived in time, in the thousands of cases where individuals have fought off criminals on their own.
The book was right on the money. If anything it should have been titled “What The Hell Are You People in Kansas Thinking?”
writerdog is a noble example. He has just lost his way.
Now comes paulie.
Paulie is a different animal. He’s a sell out.
He sold out his union. He sold out any semblance of compassion or dignity he ever had.
He’d sell out the country too. If it would boost his bottom line. You want to know what is wrong with America and not just Kansas.
I give you exibit A. You call him paul, Franklin, or econ101.
“Republicans vote against their ecnonomic interests”?
*****
Absolutely right!
Take Reagan for example. He broke the back of unionism in this country (air traffic controllers) and helped speed up a widening rift between the rich and the poor.
Trailer-park denizens and their ilk are so concerned about God, guns and gays, that they vote for the white males that outsource their jobs and privatize their health-care.
They vote to put God in the schools, and they get a tax break for hedge fund managers.
They vote to make gay marriage illegal, and they get tax breaks for companies that relocate overseas.
They vote to repeal the assault weapons ban, and they get laws making it easier for multinationals to raid their pensions.
They CONs have divided the white, socio-economic lower class against the people that are their natural allies, minorities and unions, as a cynical ploy to keep them from seeing who their real enemy is–the wealthy elites who make money off of them.
There are only 2 kinds of Republicans- the very rich and the very stupid. Nobody else would vote for them. Any working person that votes Republican is just voting against themselves and their children. But many of them smoke cigarettes too so maybe they like killing themselves. It is too bad because they need to wake up to what they are doing.
“The REAL reason liberals do not want individuals to protect themselves?
“Liberals want government to do everything for us,”
Totally false.
Not all liberals are anti-gun. My own feeling is that we have too many guns in the US already for gun control to have any effect.
If we could start over, we might be able to be a Japan or a Germany.
But we can’t start over.
But some common-sense protections to track down criminals–like bullet ‘fingerprinting’ and taggants in gunpowder–would help law enforcement a great deal and would make us safer.
“Liberals want government to do everything for us.”
That’s as stupid as CONs saying that CONs want government to do nothing for us.
Who would hand out all those big no-bid contracts to political cronies you love so much without the Bush government, Franklin?
Kev-
I am a Republican. I am neither very rich, or very stupid. I just refuse to belong to the party of whiners and complainers and “victims”. I don;t smoke cigarettes, or anything else. I grew up in a household that was financially broke, but not poor.
The difference is attitude. My children all have college educations. Again, because of attitude. I have been bankrupt because of medical costs, and I have done better because of my own efforts. Such is life.
Perhaps Dr. Franks should have titled his book, “How I over analyzed the soup bone.”
Franks “borrowed” his idea for the book from a Kansas social observer and conservative journalist of the 1890s. That writer complained about the populist movement in Kansas that were addressing economic issues such as the gold standard, white supremacy rise and corporate profit motivations.
Franks turns the concept on its head and mushes the policies of conservatism with the policies of business and how it may drive political issues.
It’s another classic example of Liberal books that boil the ox bone hoping to get beef soup, when all one gets is “beef-flavored” soup which in actuality is more like “bone-marrow” flavored soup.
Franks attempt at analysis is like describing the typical American Family. Eh? What would that be Dr. Franks? Franks comes a long line of liberal thinkers that think they can find the sum mean total of “average white guys” and come forth with formula for cultural analogy.
It ain’t happening Franks nor is your concept of analysis on “What’s the Matter is Kansas.”
We are given a chance in this country. In the whole wretched history of humanity, few, if any, have the kind of opportunity that exists in this country. Take advantage of it, or not. Its up to you.
But please don’t expect a presidential election to change your life. You gotta do that yourself.
“Personally, I look for the made in usa label. I will also pay up to about 15 or 20% more for American made products“.
LOL point of order, these day the label maybe the only part that was made in the U.S.!
I worked for Wal-Mart for over eight years and being the barer of bad news, toward the end of the “Made In America” program. Sam was having only the labels made here, the rest of the product was made over seas.
And yes, our pocket book often determines our level of moral righteousness. Even before my stint with W-M I was not a fan of Target. But after being fired for no other real reason than I had been with the company too long. My wife and I made a special trip to the Super Target East. For the reason to check out the prices and selection compared to W-M. I am so frugal that we still shop at W-M simply because I pay less for the same things. I just now grimiest as I walk through the doors at W-M.
But don’t you also think it is a catch 22? Because so many join the ranks of the under-employed. And the dollar does not go as far as it once did, many shop at W-M and Target because of lack of buying power too. My righteous indignation allows me to spend a dollar or two more on something so I do not have to go to Wal-Mart. But I swallow my pride at three dollars. FYI if you are looking for furniture I would suggest Big Lots for something that is not an heirloom. It is better build then the crap at W-M or Target.
BJ
How in the hell did I ever “sell out” my Union, when I actually belonged to a Union?
If memory serves, I voted in the majority each and every time that the Retail Clerks Union, in Wichita, ever voted on anything.
I stood up once and argued against going on strike.
My view was in the majority. We did not strike.
Later that evening, thugs like you vandalized the truck I that I had driven to that Union Meeting.
It seems to me that the thugs who shot the truck and threw a brick through the window were violating the will of their Union, in not respecting the vote at the Union meeting.
Higher taxes outsource jobs.
Heavy regulations outsource jobs.
Lawsuits outsource jobs.
Militant labor unions outsource jobs.
Liberals make live miserable for employers, and then liberals wonder why we don’t have enough jobs!
Liberals make live miserable for employers,
And Cons expect people to work 60 hour weeks at a dollar a day and wonder why no one is buying their products.
“Higher taxes outsource jobs.
Heavy regulations outsource jobs.
Lawsuits outsource jobs.
Militant labor unions outsource jobs.
Liberals make live miserable for employers, and then liberals wonder why we don’t have enough jobs!”
See Sweden Norway Denmark Germany and let us not forget muslim infested France hey didn’t they just win some kind of big contract.
Predestined Posted April 24, 2008 at 9:12 am |
“Got it, Boxlock. And yes, it was an honest question.”
Thanks for the response, you I can converse with.
You said “Those of us who choose not have an arsenal of weapons at hand aren’t blind to the dangers of life. We take precautions, just as most people do. We just don’t do it with a firearm.”
I find no fault with your or P_Mom’s decision, I find fault with her manner of criticism of other’s decisions. Quite typical in my opinion of a ‘lefty’ in that they believe their choice as best for everyone, and worse want to impose those opinions and choices on everyone.
A firearm happens to be the arguably best method of immediate self-defense, just as a fire extinguisher is better than blowing on the fire or even a blanket.
Many, I would say most, firearm enthusiasts are very responsible. I have my firearms, most, in a $3000, 1500+ pound safe bolted to concrete, with a monitored security system on. I collect them and take enjoyment in my ‘hobby’ and the shooting sports. Yet P-Mom, if I can be so bold, would take those away because she sees no need. The height of arrogance and a self-centered, superior attitude.
We are all, I hope, free to make our own decisions on this, and hopefully respect others.
Haven’t read the thread, so this may be redundant. But I thought Frank absolutely nailed the truth of ‘Bittergate’:
But I know one thing with absolute certainty. The media flurry kicked up by Mr. Obama’s gaffe powerfully confirms an argument I actually did make: That as they return again to the culture war, what the soldiers on all sides are doing is talking about class without actually addressing the economic basis of the subject.
The corporate tabloid media insists on pointing to everything but the elephant in the room. And we eat it up.
Well, I hate steal an Obama line, but, folks, how about, “not this time”?
P.S. Ahh, thank, you, Thomas, I don’t even have to write the post myself! More from the article:
It is a stereotype you have heard many times before: Besotted with latte-fueled arrogance, the liberal looks down on average people, confident that he is a superior being. He scoffs at religion because he finds it to be a form of false consciousness. He believes in regulation because he thinks he knows better than the market.
“Elitism” is thus a crime not of society’s actual elite, but of its intellectuals. Mr. Obama has “a dash of Harvard disease,” proclaims the Weekly Standard. Mr. Obama reminds columnist George Will of Adlai Stevenson, rolled together with the sinister historian Richard Hofstadter and the diabolical economist J.K. Galbraith, contemptuous eggheads all. Mr. Obama strikes Bill Kristol as some kind of “supercilious” Marxist. Mr. Obama reminds Maureen Dowd of an . . . anthropologist.
“… unfortunately titled “What’s the Matter With Kansas?”
Unfortunately titled? Do you have a clue who he borrowed that from, Rhonda? I thought Paul was going to tell us, but he didn’t. Franks borrowed that from an editorial written by William Allen White - you know, the famous newspaper journalist?
I am starting to worry about Rhonda.
Outlander,
I would say the election and re-election of GWB has had a large impact on this country - a large negative impact. Can you honestly disagree with that. If so, be sure to tell the folks in New Orleans that… Presidents do matter.
Does anybody out there actually know someone in a rural area who is bitter and as a result turns to the God, guns and gays line?
This is nothing but a bunch of material to build up a straw man.
Obama should have drawn a blank on this one instead of trying to imagine how it could be possible that someone out there does not agree with him. People who don’t like him don’t agree with his ideaology.
It’s really not that complicated.
Franks borrowed that from an editorial written by William Allen White - you know, the famous newspaper journalist?
The famous Kansas newspaper journalist. . .
Does anybody out there actually know someone in a rural area who is bitter and as a result turns to the God, guns and gays line?
Ok, I can’t really say I do. However, I’ve noticed those who turn to God, guns, and gays line, like you say, are all bitter. This forum gives ample evidence.
The famous Kansas newspaper journalist. . .
the guy who started an Emporia newpaper in a tent? Never heard of him.
Unfortunately RFL, that’s the way a lot of Liberal Progressives view those on the right.
If they can’t put us in a nice neat little box, they cannot expand their Liberal philosophies to support their agendas.
If life were just that simple…
Is GWB
the reason we have global warming?
the reason America is addicted to foreign oil?
the reason a worst case scenario hurricane hit New Orleans?
the reason that globalization is resulting in the off shoring of manufacturing jobs?
the reason that Greenspan kept interest rates artificially low to attrack inept sub prime borrowers to enter the real estate market?
the reason that commodites worldwide are facing a supply shortages?
I think not. Which is why a Democrat will not make much of a difference in the positive on the matters that are directly affecting the economy. What are the Dems solution to any of the above issues?
Each of the Dem’s won’t even pledge to a timetable of pulling out of Iraq (Bush’s real blunder).
You didn’t say what part of my earlier post you disagree with Steven, but again, if a person is depending upon the results of a presidential election to change their life, they are to be pitied.
And the fact that some are, is evidence of the impact of the political media shoveling false promises and vague generalities at them.
Hope is not to be found in a political candidate.
“Does anybody out there actually know someone in a rural area who is bitter and as a result turns to the God, guns and gays line?”
Sure look up Christan Identity or ayran nations or white power groups…..
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f3hRHh-CQc8
“However, I’ve noticed those who turn to God, guns, and gays line, like you say, are all bitter.”
bitter about what? Being politically motivated to post information on a blog to explain ideas that affect one’s own democracy constitutes bitterness? I guess we can all claim being “bitter” then.
Does anybody know somebody who is bitter about the 2000 election results?
I agree, RFL, Bush isn’t the reason for those problems. You have to admit, though, that not only has he not alleviated most of those you recounted, he did quite a bit to exacerbate those problems. And I also agree, a Dem, Indy, or Rep won’t make much of a difference, for QUITE A WHILE.
(BTW, there is no global warming. It’s a lib lie, y’know. You know it has to be a lie, Bush says it’s real.)
Sorry, Boxlock,
Read what Rage cut and pasted about what Frank said. It looks to me that Frank predicted your post nearly perfectly. That is, [paraphrasing here] ‘Liberals being elitists who are trying to tell people, whom they look down upon, what to do, because they think they know better.’ That conservative message virus has gotten into the conservative collective unconscious.
Thomas Frank is great, it is easy to see why George Will sneered and said he was a “Michael Moore with an educated mind.” In other words, Will’s worst nightmare.
“You didn’t say what part of my earlier post you disagree with Steven, but again, if a person is depending upon the results of a presidential election to change their life, they are to be pitied.”
Sorry,
I think, under normal circumstances, I would agree with your premise that who is president doesn’t really matter in what the average person does with their day-to-day life. I think GWB has not been an “normal circumstances” president. I don’t think Bush has been an unimportant influence upon the lives of our military, upon the lives of people who lived in New Orleans, and the list could go on, but I think my point should be clear.
This has been fun folks, but I need to go do some work. See ya later.
I am a Republican. I am neither very rich, or very stupid. I just refuse to belong to the party of whiners and complainers and “victims”.
lj,
This is a curious assertion. With all due respect, this seems to come from the same well of Republican propaganda that produced the “elitism” crap. Yes, people should work hard, pay their dues, not expect caviar on a silver platter, yada yada yada. Life’s not fair.
I don’t think you will find many real, living people who subscribe to that view in the Democratic party. It’s a stereotype, and a misrepresentation. And one aimed squarely at the radical notion–developed by our nation’s founders–that we can govern ourselves without regard to wealth or property.
Call me naive, but I see the intentional destruction of the middle class by your party as a good reason to complain. It’s not whining, and not always about oneself. That’s a amazing syndrome I see on this blog, actually: anytime a unabashed liberal criticizes American inequities, the hardline cons here immediately accuse then whining for free stuff . As if (1) leveling the playing field via democracy was theft and, (2) invariably , it must be because they want it for themselves.
Rather telling, actually: if your focus is “gimme, gimme!,” you naturally expect others to be thinking only of themselves.
And, yes, I acknowledge that you’ve declared for Obama, a Democrat, this year, for your own reasons. You obviously haven’t have swallowed the dogma whole, like some here. You think for yourself. And that’s precisely why you know should know better, man.
Well there you have it. annie_moose brings up a sizeable voting block, White power groups.
I’m sure that was the first thought which came to Obama’s mind when asked about why people in rural communities may not support him…???
And how many white power members do you personally know or have seen? Yeah, annie perhaps you should get out more and actually talk to and observe the people who live in rural communites instead of assuming they are all the “white power” type of person.
Steven Davis,
I don’t think Rage’s post was accurate at all.
In fact, it was a I described what Frank’s does. That is, he boils the ox bone to get beef soup. (flavoring, but no substance)
fish,
I believe that a Bush out of office will be a good phsycological lift to the country if for no other reason that so many people connect negativity with the occupant in the White House. I agree that Bush has fallen short diplomatically in trying the mitigate the US’s dropping global image. The strategy in fighting the war on terrorism has not won him points abroad or here at home whether you agree that that war should be fought or not.
One of his big initiatives, subsidies for biofuels production, was a misguided effort to ween the US off of foreign oil while lowering greenhouse gas emissions (as an effort to appease the global warming alarmists). Now we see how ridiculous such a measure was. The global warming alarmists still hate him and food prices are higher with less energy and little CO2 reduction to boot.
I’m looking forward to getting the lame duck scapegoat out of office.
fish,
I believe that a Bush out of office will be a good psychological lift to the country if for no other reason that so many people connect negativity with the occupant in the White House. I agree that Bush has fallen short diplomatically in trying the mitigate the US’s dropping global image. The strategy in fighting the war on terrorism has not won him points abroad or here at home whether you agree that that war should be fought or not.
One of his big initiatives, subsidies for biofuels production, was a misguided effort to ween the US off of foreign oil while lowering greenhouse gas emissions (as an effort to appease the global warming alarmists). Now we see how ridiculous such a measure was. The global warming alarmists still hate him and food prices are higher with less energy and little CO2 reduction to boot.
I’m looking forward to getting the lame duck scapegoat out of office.
LJ, I have to agree with Rage’s post. You’re too level-headed to fall into the ‘whining’ trap. Just to give you an example:
Where I work right now there are two operators; me and a 22/23 year old. I come into work early, get ready for my machine and have to wait for the clock in time. I take 12 minutes of my 20 minute lunch and sometimes up to 7 minutes of my 10 minute break devoting the rest of the time getting ready for the next machine. My area is clean not only for the next shift, but the next operator (him). I do all my own work.
Now the other operator, teh one who lives in Riverdale but has had an Oklahoma tag on his car these last three years, comes into work at the last possible second (anyone clocking in 5 minutes late gets docked 15 minutes so he watches the clock until 4 1/2 minutes after), then goes to the bathroom, the candy machine and the pop machine before relieving the next shift. At breaks it takes him 5 to 10 minutes to come and go to the time clock, and that’s not counted for his breaks. He ignores his machine causing problems and more work for the techs, he piles up parts for others to do (me!), he leaves his trash everywhere for others to pick up (or fall on his batteries like I do frequently!), and he bitches because we’re unfair to him. We don’t say anything because he always has scripture chapter/verses written all over his arms to know where to go on his player, and just because the two AK47s in his trunk have the clips inserted doesn’t mean they’re loaded, at least not one in the pipe.
Now tell me: What’s my political leaning, and what do you think HIS IS?
“Yeah, annie perhaps you should get out more and actually talk to and observe the people who live in rural communites instead of assuming they are all the “white power” type of person.”
Thank’s RFL maybe we should ride around together. I’ll start a list of questions. You can educate this poor dumb liberal.Maybe you can convert me with your superior intellect.
Rage-
I understand your point. I would disagree on several. I have seen many on this blog whine because they didn;t have what someone else has. I have seen it in many of the people I know. some are on assistance and want more, some aren;t on assistance and think they should be, some are just on assistance and hate it. Some are employed, some are not. Some are farmers who have thier own place (well, them and the bank). What I see is a reliance on government as the first answer, not the last. And that is what I object to. I have friends across the econimic as well as the political spectrum, because I don;t consider any nonviolent spectrum as my enemy. I have good friends with whom I totally disagree (on both sides). Besides the point.
THere is no intentional destruciton of the middle class by the republican party. That is pure moveon.org propoganda. The Republican party is made up of the middle class. THe lower economic subrgroups, I believe, are primarily focused in the Democratic Party. The rich, it just depends on how guilty the feel about being rich. I do know the highest income/asset class in the Senate of the United States is …wait for it…almost totally comprised of Democrats.
I hold little allegiance to the parties in reality. I am a registered Republican. I give ) dollars or time. TO Either party. Neither hold up to their ideal, both are the same group behind the scenes. Laughing their asses off as we tear each other apart, instead of kicking their asses off.
“levelling the playing field” is often theft, if you take it from me without my allegiance or permission,it is theft. Doesn;t matter if you take it by force, or by government. One is legal, and is part and parcel of a republican form of government, and I am willing to share, but I prefer to share (and I do still) in a different manner.
too long. sorry. Busy here and throwing this in without digest and summation
ghotiphaze
There are assholes in all political persuasions.
My neighbor is a democrat. He fits the description of your other operatior to a tee, except he lives in Kansas. and works as at an aircraft plant, and is a union steward.
too long. sorry
‘Tweren’t too long. Nuthin’ to be sorry fer.
What I should have said, so I correct myself, is that the political party known as the Democrats, as a party leadership, seem to play to the whiners and complainers of society. There are many fine democrats, and I cast too wide a net. I apologize.
This guy LIVES in kansas, but tags in Ok. It’s cheaper.
StevenEDavis
Posted April 24, 2008 at 11:05 am | Permalink
I don’t think Bush has been an unimportant influence upon the lives of our military, upon the lives of people who lived in New Orleans, and the list could go on, but I think my point should be clear.
——————————–
Steven a typical flaw in libs thinking shows up in this post. What more should the government do for the good people of NO. Billions have been sent there and where was it spent. Libs think that throwing money at a problem fixes it. Not true. Look at our education system.
The prez doesn’t have the power to fix Pmom’s and BlueJays life but both post that those bad republicans put them where they are. I think that the lack of education or skill put them there. Now whose fault is that. Did the prez do it. Which prez?
The bitterest people I know of this blog are left wingers. Sorry to put logic into this argument.
That is pure moveon.org propoganda.
I would beg to differ, particularly since I independently came to this conclusion long before MoveOn even existed.
I too have things to do, so I’ll leave it at that.
CapnAmerica
Posted April 24, 2008 at 9:28 am
“Trailer-park denizens and their ilk are so concerned about God, guns and gays, that they vote for the white males that outsource their jobs and privatize their health-care.”
What an eletist pig/snob.
Rage-
You are right of course. What I meant was that it is typical of the moveon.org style material. It neither started with them, nor will it end when they do. THey just typify much of what I see in hte negative. I really do wish I had more time to do other than just hit and run today. I think that we could actually have a pretty decent discusion, and come to some great solutions, which is what I seek. I think the country has a sickness. I think that it a combinaiton of things, such as increaed entitlement thought procesess ( by both individuals, ceos, and companies alike) I think the Iraqi war, whether or not we went in for the right reasons, should have been done with a long time ago. We need to leave. I think that there is a whole group of people, on both sides of the economic and political spectrum, who think only of “MEMEMEMEMEME” I think common decency in how we treat each other has gone out the window, and a huge number of people have been manipulated by the puppet masters into seeing the other puppets, and ignoring those who pull the strings. I think GWB has been a disaster, but i don;t think the other candidates would have done much if any better. Anyway,
another day perhaps we can have a Great discussion! later
ghotiphaze
Posted April 24, 2008 at 11:41 am | Permalink
This guy LIVES in kansas, but tags in Ok. It’s cheaper.
**********************************
Tax evader. String him up. Just another ass. They come in all flavors.
ghotiphaze
Posted April 24, 2008 at 11:41 am | Permalink
This guy LIVES in kansas, but tags in Ok. It’s cheaper.
**********************************
Tax evader. String him up. Just another ass. They come in all flavors.
The formula continues. Here are the rules.
IF you’re perceived as arguing generally for economic equity, you’re an elitist.
IF you’re perceived as arguing for your own empowerment, you’re whining.
Funny thing: If you count the “whining” posts on this blog, I suspect most of them would be cons whining about taxes.
They might go “hey! that’s not whining! I got a right!”
Without any sense of irony, of course.
I think that there is a whole group of people, on both sides of the economic and political spectrum, who think only of “MEMEMEMEMEME”
Can’t argue with that.
IF you’re perceived as arguing generally for economic equity, you’re an elitist.
That would make you a socialist.
The way I see it, correct me if I am wrong;
If I earn x amount of dollars, I should pay some tax on that. No more tax than those earning less than me and no less than those earning more – as a percentage, not actual dollars. .
If you take more from me than what you take from someone who earns less than me (as a percentage, not actual dollars) and give that money to someone who doesn’t work, you have stolen from me.
The Democrats want to increase the entitlement mentality of this nation. In order to pay for that they will disproportionally tax those who earn more to pay for the entitlements that go to those who make less.
Regarding the MEMEMEME comment. Absolutely true, but isn’t that the nature of the democracy beast? In that case, isn’t a labor union a special interest group?
Sol, I see several problems with what your’re saying.
To begin with, you’re conflating two separate issues: progressive taxation and social welfare spending. It’s entirely possible to have one without the other.
Let’s assume, for the sake of argument, that progressive taxation is somehow unfair (it’s not, but we’ll save that argument for later).
The fact is that using government to create a equitable economy is not the same as handing money to people. Hell, even social welfare spending (which is not the only thing government does, ya know–in fact, not even close ) isn’t.
The fact is that the three-piece-and-fangs crowd have spent a goodly amount of time successfully gaming the system in their favor. Why, e.g., should companies get tax breaks for moving jobs overeeas? What purpose is served by government interfering with collective bargaining by passing “right-to-work” laws–other than to make certain that management has the upper hand?
And–by the way–if haven’t notice how small businesses have been screwed, I suggest you look into it.
And the fact is that most people–especially working-class, blue-collar types, don’t want “free money” from government. That’s a dumb myth. One need not impute any grand nobility to such people to believe this. It’s human nature to want what you have to be yours, to take pride in accomplishment.
And I think the myth of socialist freeloaders living off government persistently comes from people who have never seen the welfare system (I have), or what it does to people (seen that too). No one in their right mind wants to live that way.
goodly amount of time successfully gaming the system in their favor.
This is why I say if you are going to tax income, tax it at the same rate for everyone. No loop holes, no deductions. Nada, zip zilch, nothing. Pay your percentage and be on your way.
should companies get tax breaks for moving jobs overeeas?
I’ll stop you at should companies get tax breaks and give you a resounding HELL NO
What purpose is served by government interfering with
I’ll stop you here and give you a resounding Not a DAMN THING !!! Government should keep its nose out of the affairs of private individuals and business.
if haven’t notice how small businesses have been screwed,
I own a fledgling small business. Haven’t even paid my first quarter taxes (due in June). So I am sure I will feel that pain in due time.
most people–especially working-class, blue-collar types, don’t want “free money” from government
Agreed.
It’s human nature to want what you have to be yours, to take pride in accomplishment.
Agreed. And that restates my initial comment of that is my money, I earned it, I will pay a fair share, but keep your hands off the rest.
And I think the myth of socialist freeloaders living off government persistently
Sadly I have seen otherwise since being in Michigan. Makes me want to puke the freeloaders here. Michigan may not have a disproportionate amount of freeloaders, but it is since I’ve been here I’ve seen, first hand, those who are more than happy to suckle the gov’t teat.
Sol, If I remember correctly, Jesse Ventura had the attitude that Government shouldn’t get involved in Business. He handled it poorly but his point was valid. If someone wants the government out of business then they shouldn’t expect the government to be interfering in prostitution, gambling, etc. Also it shouldn’t be involved in the security of oil fields either. It seems the only political party that would be consistent in that area might be the libertarians, but they are politically unpopular.
“Trailer-park denizens and their ilk are so concerned about God, guns and gays, that they vote for the white males that outsource their jobs and privatize their health-care.”
What an eletist pig/snob.
It’s spelled “elitist” you dipwad.
Not only that, I lived in trailer . . . I mean, “mobile home,” . . . for two years.
You ever live in a trailer, Mr. Working-Class Hero?
LJ writes, “The difference is attitude. My children all have college educations. Again, because of attitude.”
Sorry, you’re wrong about that, LJ.
Yes, your instilling a good work ethic in your children is a great thing, no question about it.
But if your kids went to a public college, 2/3rds of that cost was borne by state taxpayers.
Attitude is great, but it doesn’t pay the bills for a college education. For a world class education system, you need a lot of money, and a big government program to administer it.
“I have been bankrupt because of medical costs” and still LittleJohn votes RepubliCON, who will fight to the death to make sure that Paris Hilton pays nothing when her grandfather’s vast estate passes to her.
“How long do you have to get hit over the head before you see who’s hitting you?” Harry S Truman
“Steven a typical flaw in libs thinking shows up in this post. What more should the government do for the good people of NO. Billions have been sent there and where was it spent. Libs think that throwing money at a problem fixes it. Not true. Look at our education system.”
Typical conservation confusion, grm. Nowhere did I say throwing more money at the problem would have resolved it. Having a competent FEMA director who had an idea and some experience about preparing for a diaster would have been quite helpful. Human death and suffering did not have to happen to the extent it did, and you know it. And, if not, there is no point in discussing this with you.
Now the next con. red herring is to blame Katrina on the democratic mayor and governor.
I’ve also belonged to the Steelworkers’ Union and the Teamsters’ in my working life, and I belong to a union now.
Don’t tell me about working for a living.
“Libs think that throwing money at a problem fixes it. Not true.”
For instance look at the 2 Billion we spend in Iraq.
Throwing money at a problem with no fix.
Good point.
Now the next con. red herring is to blame Katrina on the democratic mayor and governor
Sure why not, duh Libs blame the outcome on Bush.
I believe today McCain was laying the outcome of Katrina on bush today. That damn liberal.
What the Hell:
“”"Kev-
I am a Republican. I am neither very rich, or very stupid. I just refuse to belong to the party of whiners and complainers and “victims”. I don;t smoke cigarettes, or anything else. I grew up in a household that was financially broke, but not poor.
The difference is attitude. My children all have college educations. Again, because of attitude. I have been bankrupt because of medical costs, and I have done better because of my own efforts. Such is life.”"”
So let me get this right- you got sick through no fault of your own and you went bankrupt because you got sick- without smoking- and you blame yourself? You had better realize that, if the USA had decent healthcare like Canada, the UK and virtually every other modern nation, you would not be bankrupt. As long as you keep voting for idiot Republicans, we will never have healthcare.
“”"“Trailer-park denizens and their ilk are so concerned about God, guns and gays, that they vote for the white males that outsource their jobs and privatize their health-care.”
What an eletist pig/snob.
It’s spelled “elitist” you dipwad.
Not only that, I lived in trailer . . . I mean, “mobile home,” . . . for two years.
You ever live in a trailer, Mr. Working-Class Hero?”"”
I have never lived in a trailer but I have had family that did. And most streotypes about them are true exceot for the retirees that live in them. They drink excessively, are mad at the world, blame everybody else (the blacks, the Jews and the Mexicans) for their problems and they bitterly cling to their bibles, guns and pickups.
BTW when I was a young kid we did live in Oaklawn which is kind of a trailer park without the wheels!
When I spent my teen years in rural Oklahoma, my best friend lived in a trailer. You could see through some parts where the metal wasn’t quite properly welded together.
One night, we shared some “home-grown tobacco” (ahem) with an old man whose trailer was live with electricity. You touched it, it hurt! He seemed oblivious, to a lot of things.
Even then, I wondered how it was possible that this clueless old guy (he said it tasted sweet!) could live this way in America. It was pathetic.
Yeah, I know, personal responsibility yadayada yada. I didn’t know how he got that way, or what he could do about it. I wasn’t writing some phucking political tract. I was 16 years old.
I still wonder.
Rage I grew up in Oklahoma in the 60’s and the saying was ‘light up, drop out’. Sounds like he did. Not my call but pot can make life looks awfully good when you are always mellowed out.
Uhm, germie. . .he was like 75 years old. . in 1978. He believed it was tobacco.
No, not the most responsible thing for a couple of teen kids to do. But that’s not the point. Yeah, maybe he burnt out on cheap whisky or something. I honestly don’t know.
But, I know, at least, that he had Medicare.
Steven,
The cut and paste job you refer to, “That conservative message virus has gotten into the conservative collective unconscious.”, has nothing to do with a virus spreading among conservative thought undeserved. It is a universal observation, proved over and over. Many Libs can’t keep their lives and opinions to themselves, and want to coerce everyone around them into their belief system and practices. Take P_Momma as an example, she wants to confiscate all firearms, and when she is done with that there will be another crusade she’d set out on to conform those around her to her life model. Just read her post over any time span, it can’t be misinterpreted. Then look at the DemLibs House and Senate members, many if not most, do the same, they want to manage people’s lives according to what they think is right. And what irks me is the taxing or taking, legalized theft, from the producers for the purchase of votes from non-producers.
“You had better realize that, if the USA had decent healthcare like Canada, the UK and virtually every other modern nation, you would not be bankrupt. As long as you keep voting for idiot Republicans, we will never have healthcare.”
I have good health care now, I don’t want a one size fits all health care I have to wait on or get permission to use. If we vote for idiot DemLibs. that will happen.
Wasn’t sure from what you wrote what the specifics were. I remembered my 25th class reunion - the kids that were stoned in high school were the least productive in our class. Maybe they were happy in their unproductivity so that is a judgement call. The 60’s were a very rocked out generation.
“I have good health care now ” Fixed that for you.
“What purpose is served by government interfering with collective bargaining by passing “right-to-work” laws–other than to make certain that management has the upper hand?”
What??? That’s idiocy!
What about the Constitutional right to freedom of association, as well as the common-law principle of private ownership of property. Furthermore, what about in certain cases “forced union dues” are used to support political causes, causes which many union members may oppose, or candidates they oppose.
The foundational function of government should be the protection of private property. Unfortunately it’s corrupted itself in much more that is counter productive to individual freedom.
“The foundational function of government should be the protection of private property”
A good refuge to run to.
For one who has more.
But we are a nation of by and for the people.
If you do not care about me or others? Why should we care about the protection of your property?
Your continued life communist.
Without the protection of private property no one will work. Everyone would sit on their ass like you JR.
Box you’re so totally full of it, I believe that you can own guns, just not ones that you can take out a whole schoolroom full of kids in 5 seconds with.
Communism or socialism is where we will end up if folks like you continue to act as you do there “Boxlock”.
I like to call myself a social democrat.
Now crawl back in your safe with your guns.
What about the Constitutional right to freedom of association
Heehee, what about it, moron? You need a law to enforce “free” association, or what? What the hell are you talking about? (assuming you know, which I doubt) In NAACP v. Button, the law enforcement establishment sided against free association. The Supreme Court–thankfully–fixed that.
the common-law principle of private ownership of property . . .and how, exactly, is that sanely relevant to anything? Do you consider employees trespassers? You may find it hard to run a business that way.
Furthermore, what about in certain cases “forced union dues” are used to support political causes, causes which many union members may oppose, or candidates they oppose.
In some instances, that may be problematic. But what was that you were saying about “free association”?
A quick read says you have FAR more free time than me there lard butt…er “Boxlock”. Do ya stand when you blog all day? Nah I bet you got the ergonomic chair and your bag of cheetos AND a gun in easy reach.
BlueJay,
Why wouldn’t you like to call yourself a “social democrat”, you’re a lazy socialist, maybe even a communist. You don’t want what you can work to earn as a free man, you want to take from others.
I have no respect for people like that. If you can’t work, and I mean can’t, then it may be different and you need help, but I suspect you choose to live like a parasite.
Free association to work unencumbered by some damn union, YOU MORON!
BS, or BJ, whatever, I work from my home and my car. I work for myself, I don’t need to be dragged down by some union into mediocrity.
Maybe ya don’t get it “Boxlock”.
Your opinion of me. Your opinion in general means less than nothing to me. Why would I seek the respect of a coward like yourself?
You see the ills of society. And rather than try to address them, you just arm up to protect yours.
You are no more than a 3 year old child screaming “Mine mine mine!”
And now you are getting your posters confused “Boxlock”.
AND you are rising in anger. Are you drinking?
I work for myself too. But I just happen to believe that the world is a little bit bigger than me.
No, I don’t get it, at all. I don’t see how you live in your own skin. Does it shed?
And you are less “than a 3 year old child screaming” “I want, I want, I want” and too socialist to get off your butt and earn it. You want someone else’s instead.
No, I’m not getting my posters confused…I guess I just think BJ is full of BS.
I’m not really angry, I am actually having fun pointing out the spineless individual work ethic you ascribe to.
Free association to work unencumbered by some damn union, YOU MORON!
Uhm, right, Boxthought: We obviously need the government to step in and stop private contracts between employees and employers–new employees are losing their “right to work” under a different private contract! (one, which, conveniently, excludes the union).
Wow: you really want deep governemtn intervention into the economy, don’t you! You’re not satisfied with regulating contracts–you want make some impossible! What a socialist !
But, ya know, the most “closed shop” on the planet is the one where the management calls the shots, and the workers have no recourse, no matter what management does. Unions don’t just happen, for no reason.
Spare me your crocodile tears.
Now, if you’ll excuse me, asshole, thanks to you, I will probably be burning the midnight oil, so to speak. Have a nice day!
Boxlock–
Cool it. You don’t know, JR. I do. He’s not lazy.
As far as this comment, “I don’t want a one size fits all health care I have to wait on or get permission to use.”
Hey, jeenyous, you have to ask permission right now to get the treatment you want from your so-called “health care provider.”
And you know what else, jeenyous?
If they don’t want to give it to you, you don’t effing get it, and there’s not a damn thing you can do about it.
It’s called “free enterprise.”
Mega dittos, Rage, mega dittos.
“I work from my home and my car”
Huh?
Just what do you produce or build behind the wheel there Box o Scotch?
You are absolutely right about one thing BlueJay…the world is a LOT bigger than you.
Nighty night,
Like I called ya “Boxlock”
A coward.
The world goes beyond the end of your nose or the privacy fence of your yard there too “Boxlock”
But do the country a favor and get yourself an island. Maybe the coconut milk will loosen ya up!
“Now, if you’ll excuse me, asshole, thanks to you, I will probably be burning the midnight oil, so to speak. Have a nice day!”
Ha, what an excuse, shifting blame from yourself to me, saying I caused, or am causing, you some discomfort you brought on yourself. I can hear it now, “he made me do it, it wasn’t my fault”.
Good grief, now I’m blogging with children.
Capn, you’re right, I don’t know JR. I should know more before forming such a negative opinion. I have suspected he is disabled, but instead of admitting he needs help, which I fully believe in, he calls for redistribution of the fruits of others labor, which I don’t believe in. I have a hard enough time providing for my own.
By the way, I have excellent health care now, and always have except for the period of time I chose a lousy HMO. Which is exactly what I envision socialist health care to be. It was horrible and I had to practically threaten a law suit to get a referral.
Now, good night and I mean it.
Having married into a very Republican family that farmed, having lived on a farm for 24 years, and having lived in a small community, too, I’ve had a birdseye view of who votes against their best interests. (Hint: It isn’t the Democrats)
“It is a universal observation, proved over and over.”
If this is so easily proven, prove it here.
“And what irks me is the taxing or taking, legalized theft, from the producers for the purchase of votes from non-producers.”
Sorry, while you may be a good person, you have so vigorously consumed from the conservative Kool-Aide, you cannot be counted on to think clearly.
Night… And good luck to you — you will surely need it.
Steven, Good Morning and thanks for the “good luck to you”. I do need it. I readily admit that. I believe we ALL need it.
While the DemLib. socialists think I’m a hard ass, and selfish, which I’m not sure I really mind at all, I do believe in the community helping those that need help. I believe much more in individuals helping where they can. I’m not overly generous (an understatement), and not bragging for that purpose, but I gave somewhere around $6000+ to various organizations and to my church last year. This represents a reasonable portion of my income, certainly more than ‘average’ according to federal income tax information.
I don’t mind, and in fact enjoy, giving. I don’t enjoy having it taken from me, and especially taken and give to causes I don’t believe in or given to people that can get along on their own.
Rage went into a rage above, calling me a moron, about my use of the term private property in the discussion, along with my statement that government’s primary function is the protection of private property. I quote, “and how, exactly, is that sanely relevant to anything?”.
Private property is the summation of those things a person produces, not only real estate but the total results of their physical and intellectual labor. Private propery is what their labor produces. And other people have no right to take that in excess of amounts necessary to secure the private property and enable it’s continued production, that is without the person’s permission anyway.
Socialism/Communism fails EVERY time. It failed right here on this continent, and it will again if allowed to increase. Notice I didn’t say start, it’s already started and being increased by the DemLibs.
You made a request of me, “If this is so easily proven, prove it here. For brevity I will use but one example, but one very close to home.
Please look at our own history.
“Why the Pilgrims Abandoned Communism”
Link:
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1285981/posts
“The communal system failed because it treated the older and wiser the same way as the young and brash. It failed because it rewarded the less productive as much as the more productive. It failed because members of the community found that they could do less and still get the same benefit. All of these problems arose in a very religious community in which gluttony and laziness were considered sins and drunkenness was rare. How much more would communism fail in a larger society where such problems are rampant! By returning to a system in which the older and wiser are respected, and by reorganizing so that one’s benefit was directly tied to his production, the Pilgrims ensured the survival of their colony. Governor Bradford, however, ultimately attributes the failure of the “common cause” to something much deeper:….”
To the likes of BlueJay, Predestined and the Capn., et. al., I say we’ve tried it, socialism/communism, it failed miserably, it has failed miserable every time, so get out of my ‘house’ and my ‘pocket’ and get to work. Leave me alone to personally decide who I help, it’s not your decision.
Here is an better article on the subject of the Communism in America, by a recognized author.
November 21, 2007
The Tragedy of the Commons
By John Stossel
http://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2007/11/the_tragedy_of_the_commons.html
“The failure of Soviet communism is only the latest demonstration that freedom and property rights, not sharing, are essential to prosperity. The earliest European settlers in America had a dramatic demonstration of that lesson, but few people today know it.” ……
“Tragedy of the commons”
“The Tragedy of the Commons is a type of social trap, often economic, that involves a conflict over finite resources between individual interests and the common good. It states that free access and unrestricted demand for a finite resource ultimately structurally dooms the resource through over-exploitation.”
Link:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tragedy_of_the_commons
“By the way, I have excellent health care now, and always have except for the period of time I chose a lousy HMO. Which is exactly what I envision socialist health care to be. It was horrible and I had to practically threaten a law suit to get a referral.”
Interesting.
Boxlock has had personal experience with at gouging, manipulative HMO and from that he extrapolates that “this is exactly what I envision socialist health care to be.”
Jeenyous Boy sees no conflict between his championing of the “free market system to regulate itself” and the bad HMO that took his money and screwed him over.
Why didn’t the “free market” self-correct for your problems, BL? And before you say, “it did because I changed policies,” what would have happened if you had an otherwise terminal disease that needed aggressive treatment before you discovered they were bad?
You’d be dead.
And that’s the difference–you want to let profit-driven billionaire CEO’s decide who lives or dies. I want government responsible to the people to decide.
Boxthought, I’ll give you credit for one thing. If I seemed to be somehow “blaming” you for wasting my own time setting you straight, that would be wrong. And I see that’s how my sentence read, unfortunately. My bad.
But as for this:
Rage went into a rage above, calling me a moron, about my use of the term private property in the discussion, along with my statement that government’s primary function is the protection of private property. I quote, “and how, exactly, is that sanely relevant to anything?”.
It’s ironic that you complain about that painfully obvious and fair question, as you never even attempted to answer it, even with several posts after I called it a night.
And, I, too, would recommend that people look into the “tragedy of the commons,” a very important issue. But it doesn’t mean anything close to what you seem to think it does (hint: try sctually reading the Wikipedia link you gave).
Rage is correct, as (almost) always.
The tragedy of the commons is a major argument against unregulated free trade.
From Wiki, The metaphor illustrates how free access and unrestricted demand for a finite resource ultimately structurally dooms the resource through over-exploitation. This occurs because the benefits of exploitation accrue to individuals or groups, each of whom is motivated to maximize use of the resource, while the costs of the exploitation are distributed among all those to whom the resource is available (which may be a wider class of individuals than that which is exploiting it). This, in turn, causes demand for the resource to increase, which causes the problem to snowball to the point in which the resource is exhausted.
*****
A more modern interpretation of this is socializing the costs / privatizing the profits”.
Examples abound. For example, the coal suppliers and power companies profit by providing electricity in places like Holcomb. But they do NOT PAY THE COSTS of polluting the air we breathe. That cost is paid by children who ingest mercury and have lower IQ’s as a result or who have asthma or allergies from particulites or who get cancer from radiation (from uranium also present in coal) which is released into the air.
Capn, posts;
“Why didn’t the “free market” self-correct for your problems,”
It did and it has, there are a lot fewer people in HMOs today including me. HMOs operate similar socialized medicine, and have aspects of funding similar to socialized medicine. They are the cheapest and poorest form of health care coverage. They stink except for band-aid level medicine.
Capn stated, “‘And before you say, “it did because I changed policies”, well dimwit that is exactly how the free market works and it did work for me and others. What, are you so helpless on your own you couldn’t do the same? Your using ‘what-ifs’ to challenge my ‘what actually happened’ loses every time, so dummy I’ve won that argument. Next.
Again the dummy says, “And that’s the difference–you want to let profit-driven billionaire CEO’s decide who lives or dies. I want government responsible to the people to decide.” Idiot, the government will be a hell of a lot less responsive to you than will a private company. You can’t fire the government, you can’t switch from them, they will do with you what they want. Your argument of the free market system not being responsive is so incredibly weak, it has worked and a gigantic government bureaucracy would be much worse. You just want somebody else paying for your health care and will sacrifice quality for that.
Yes Rage, it did read that way because that is exactly what you meant….a very childish attitude and response. But very typical, and you prove it.
And Rage, I most certainly did answer your question, you simply are incapable of understanding. My premise IS, and that is not negotiable as that was the statement you ask for an answer about, is that the foundational function of government is the protection of private property. And, that private property is the sum total of a persons labors, physical, intellectual, etc. So, now I’ll slow down here, and you go get someone to help you read if necessary. The taking of a person’s private property to give to someone else is THE