Give Hillary Clinton credit for a hard-fought win in Pennsylvania. Her comfortable 10-point margin, while less than the blowout she needed, gives her some breathing room to continue her primary battle against Barack Obama.
But party officials must ask: To what end? Time is running out, as this Associated Press analysis points out, and she faces very long odds and dwindling campaign funds. Obama, flush with cash, is widely expected to win delegate-rich North Carolina on May 6, and he has a good chance of taking Indiana the same day.
Clinton has no chance now to overtake Obama in elected delegates, meaning that Obama must somehow collapse or be fatally crippled as a candidate for her to plausibly emerge as the party’s nominee.
The scenario that Clinton proposes - superdelegates handing her the nomination over the will of elected delegates and a majority of voters and primary states - would cause nothing short of a civil war in the party and leave Clinton’s touted “electability” against McCain much in doubt.
In short, how does Pennsylvania change the hard realities of the race?
144 Comments
Rumor has it that Hillary will still be campaigning right up until the swearing in of the next President.
North Carolina is already getting nasty with the state’s Republic Party running a race-baiting anti-Obama TV commercial. The party of Jesse Helms lives!
Obama’s concession speech last night showed his shift in direction. He’s running against John WMD McCain already. As long as Hillary tries to keep it an intra-mural game, she’s gonna look weaker.
MH,
Republicans in North Carolina running racist anti-black ads? Imagine!
Clinton has no chance now to overtake Obama in elected delegates, meaning that Obama must somehow collapse or be fatally crippled as a candidate for her to plausibly emerge as the party’s nominee.
That about it sums it up at present. Hillary will need Obama to end up with something analogous to Hookergate or bathroom sex, I suspect.
But, quite frankly, I want the race to continue thru at least June 3. Why?
(1): Let’s have that avian-sex-in-the-park moment now , while there are still 2 candidates to choose from.
(2) the longer the Dem battle, the more potential problems are vetted (see #1 above).
(3) I rather like the idea of every state–and territory–having a say. It smells like democracy.
There will be plenty of time after the primaries to assess the situation.
“North Carolina is already getting nasty with the state’s Republic Party running a race-baiting anti-Obama TV commercial. The party of Jesse Helms lives!”
Obama is now running an anti-working class commercial in North Carolina
Obama is now running an anti-working class commercial in North Carolina.
Uhm, right, Outie. Link?
She’s tougher than a bag full of rattlesnakes, and Obama has never had this much of a fight on his hands.
Don’t count her out.
P.S. I suppose an Edwards endorsement of Clinton would tighten things up a bit, since the biggest prize is his home state.
Uhm, right, Outie. Link?”
———–
My point exactly Rage.
Don’t count her out.
I wouldn’t. A lot can happen in a month.
My point exactly Rage.
Gotcha. But I still remember Jesse Helms using race-baiting ads in that very state, so the first unsupported claim is a bit more plausible!
Alledged Obama scandal and/or Super Delegates - Hillary will have her way. Or else!
Great points, Rage (11:01 post)!
The process is going exactly as it should. It shouldn’t end before the finish line is reached and all the primaries are completed, giving all persons an opportunity to have their say.
Correction–
“Hillary won by ten points” is incorrect.
According to the Pennsylvania website, she won by 8.52 percent, and apparently some Philly areas still haven’t been counted.
So . . . one can safely say barely 9 at this point, NOT ten.
The Clintons don’t know how to take no for an answer. Makes no difference to me I’m not voting for any dims.
Also, a lot of Republicans are switching parties because of Worst. President. Ever. and worst economy and worst war ever.
They’re voting for the more conservative (and of course, whiter) of the two candidates, Hillary Clinton.
A one would expect, turnout in Pennsylvania’s Democratic primary was far higher than the Republic turnout: 2,280,870 Democratic votes and only 791,205 Republics. But check out the percentages:
PENNSYLVANIA REPUBLIC PRIMARY
McCain 72.7
Paul 15.9
Huckabee 11.4
Over a quarter of the Republics who showed up voted against their certain nominee.
The Paul-bearers and Huckabites are still pissed.
There’s also Limbaugh’s “Operation Chaos” who’s openly asking Repukes to vote for Hillary because she’s easier to beat.
Polls show that too.
Why would any Republicans vote in the PA primary? The race is over!
The Republicans are switching to Dems just to vote in the Dem primary.
Operation Chaos!
Go Hillary!
Scary Capn. Very Scary!
george
Posted April 23, 2008 at 11:25 am | Permalink
The Clintons don’t know how to take no for an answer. Makes no difference to me I’m not voting for any dims.
_________________________________________________
Voting third party then? Or just writing in Ron Paul?
Re-posting Rage’s break down from yesterday:
These are projections based on Obama’s poll numbers.
Clinton. . . .Obama
KY 37 . . . . 16
WV 22 . . . . 11
NC .55 . . . . 70
IN . 39 . . . . 43
OR .28 . . . . 34
MT . .8 . . . . . 5
SD . .8 . . . .11
. . . 197 . . .190
Clinton gains maybe seven delegates by the time the convention rolls around.
Plus, it gives only about three months for Obama to campaign nationally against McCain.
Somebody who believes in party and principle would have dropped out by now.
That’s not Clinton.
The Paul[] and Huckab[ee] [supporters] are still pissed.
Ya got that right scooter
Cap I just read that the super delegates in Oklahoma are looking at switching to a more winnable candidate. They think that would be Clinton. I heard the same thing from the NC SD last night. If this picks up steam then there will be a real brokered convention on the dem side. Could prove to be entertaining.
And when you factor all of the repubs who are no happy with McCain - well we might see politics as it should be.
no= not
“MaxGrobnik” asks –
“Why would any Republicans vote in the PA primary? The race is over!”
Gee, I dunno. Take it up with the nearly 800 thousand Pennsylvania Republic Party voters.
And, with the race over, why would one voter in four make the effort to go down, wait in line, and cast a vote AGAINST McSame.
Re-posting Rage’s break down from yesterday
Source: http://www.electoral-vote.com/evp2008/Pres/Maps/Apr23.html
Feel free to double-check my figures, folks.
Ksgrm–
If it happened that Clinton was chosen by party elites over the man chosen by popular election, it would reinforce every African-American’s perception that the system is stacked against them.
And they would be right.
Because really we are all African-Americans in this election.
This election is a struggle between the grassroots people who want to finally have influence in their own government — represented by Obama — and the bureaucracy and Washington insiders that wants to cling to power — Clinton/McCain.
It’s like what I thought when the powerful elites installed George WMD Bush into the White House even though Al Gore actually won–
“Now I know what it’s like to be a n*gg*r, to have the laws twisted against you for somebody else’s personal gain, and there’s nothing you can do about it because they run the machinery.”
The majority got to feel what it’s like to be a minority on that day in December 2000 when The Supreme Court told American democracy to drop dead.
I’m reminded of the wise words of the first Republic Party president:
“No matter how much cats fight, there always seem to be plenty of kittens.”
Cap the reality of the situation was that Gore didn’t want the entire state of Florida to be recounted and the Supremes said all or nothing. As the independents proved when the entire state was recounted Bush was the winner. Reality - might be time to get over it.
In this election cycle many things are wrong in both parties. McCain is not my first choice as I have said over and over but the process played out and it looks as if he is the nominee.
We in the heartland have cast our votes and now we sit and wait.
MH so true.
” would cause nothing short of a civil war in the party”
Water cannons….teehee.
Capn
MOVE ON
it would reinforce every African-American’s perception that the system is stacked against them.
And they would be right.
Race bait much? You think Obama is getting votes because he is black? What a racist statement.
“Plus, it gives only about three months for Obama to campaign nationally against McCain.
“Somebody who believes in party and principle would have dropped out by now.”
How important is the time disadvantage vs. playing the primary game until the 4th quarter whistle sounds?
I do believe that both Obama and Clinton look less desirable the longer the primary goes on. But, I also think it is important to the party as a whole to let all of its members be heard.
I am concerned that H.C. and B.O. seem to be appealing to such different demographics in the primary voters. I think in the end, however, McCain is not going to have much appeal to any democratic voters.
I don’t agree with Capn much, but I think he’s right on with this one:
“If it happened that Clinton was chosen by party elites over the man chosen by popular election, it would reinforce every African-American’s perception that the system is stacked against them.
And they would be right.”
—-
Clinton ending up winning the nomination should ring danger bells for Democrats, not only for this election, but for the future. It risks the loss of a democraphic they have counted on for decades who could decide - rightly - that they have been abandoned by the party that took them for granted for so long.
But why am I giving the Dems advice? Go Hillary!
Cap the reality of the situation was that Gore didn’t want the entire state of Florida to be recounted and the Supremes said all or nothing.
Sigh. . .I don’t realy want to rehash this again. Read your history, Ksgrm. Yes, that’s what Gore initially requested (one can argue about why), but the Florida Supreme Court ordered a statewide recount .
This is the recount the Supreme Court stoppped.
Look it up.
Here is an interseting, possible bellweather election in Mississippi.
**************************************************
“Surprise Mississippi Result Shows Unpopularity Of Iraq War In Deep Red States”
By Eric Kleefeld - April 23, 2008, 11:57AM
In a major upset that shows just how strong opposition to the Iraq War is in even very red states, the Democratic candidate came out on top in the first round of the special election to succeed Sen. Roger Wicker (R-MS) in his old House seat, in a district that by all rights should have had an outright win for the Republican candidate.
Democrat Travis Childers finished with 49% of the vote in last night’s special election, Republican Greg Davis 46%, and the remainder going to the defeated candidates from the primaries for the regular election in November, plus third-party candidates. Without anybody getting 50% of the vote, this goes to a runoff in three weeks.
Both Childers and Davis are strong social conservatives, so it might be useful to look at the major issue dividing them: Iraq, with Childers supporting a timetable for withdrawal and Davis in favor of staying.
Bear in mind, this is a huge upset in a district that voted 62%-37% for President Bush in 2004, and where the last Democrat to represent the place was Jamie Whitten, who spent a good part of his career as an old-time Southern conservative segregationist. And with the DCCC beating the Republicans in the money game, the Dems will have a lot of money to bring to bear for the runoff.”
http://tpmelectioncentral.talkingpointsmemo.com/2008/04/surprise_mississippi_result_sh.php
*************************************************
Looks like opposition to the Iraq debacle is a winning issue even in the Deep South. I’d say that bodes well for Democrats come November.
Oh, and by posting the story, I expect the usual litany of Repuke dumbassery regarding the old time, racist, segregrationist southern Democrat who once held the post. In response, I’ll merely point out that the person retiring from the seat is a REPUBLICAN, and that the district went 62% for Bush in 2004.
Repukes, Southern white racists are YOUR constituency, thanks.
Rage,
Indeed: indicative that ksgrm cuts off the Florida narrative, just as the Repukes managed to cut off the Florida vote.
For those confused by the numbers in CF2K article:
Louisiana does things differently. The candidates of all parties run at once, and then there’s a runoff for the top vote-getters.
And it does indeed look ominous, CF2K, heh!
An Online NewsHour Report
More than three months after Democrat Al Gore conceded the hotly contested 2000 election, an independent hand recount of Florida’s ballots released today says he would have lost anyway, even if officials would have allowed the hand count he requested.
http://www.pbs.org/newshour/media/media_watch/jan-june01/recount_4-3.html
—————————
Cap, Rage, CF the dems lost and bringing up this everytime an election is debated is stale. That is history and we have an election ahead of us. Move On - that is all I am saying. No matter how many times you try to portray this as the Supremes stealing an election the facts don’t work in your favor.
Yes last nights win by Hillary is a check mark in Mc Cain’s win column, for if Clinton gets the nomination.
Then Nov will be in the Republican play ground and played by the Karl Rowe’s playbook. Which give Mc Cain a lot of home field advantage. If the topic would be the issues instead of dirty politics, Mc Cain would be the one that would be the babe in the woods. And since both Mc Cain and Hillary are not truly any different then what has been happening in the last eight years. Get out the coin and flip!
Sigh. . .from Germie’s link:
**************
While the USA Today report focused on what would have happened had the Florida Supreme Court-ordered recount not been halted by the U.S. Supreme Court, the Herald pointed to one scenario under which Gore could have scored a narrow victory — a fresh recount in all counties using the most generous standards.
In their reports, the newspapers assumed counts already completed when the court-ordered recount was stopped would have been included in any official count. Thus, they allowed numbers from seven counties — Palm Beach, Volusia, Broward, Hamilton, Manatee, Escambia and Madison — to stand, but applied the most inclusive standards to votes in the rest of the state. If those numbers did not stand, the Herald reported, a more generous hypothetical revisited recount would have scored the White House for Gore — but with only a 393-vote margin.
Under most other scenarios, the papers reported, Bush would have retained his lead.
The newspapers’ review did not include the approximately 110,000 “overvotes” — ballots cast for more than one candidate. Both papers are planning a separate analysis of overvote numbers next month.
***********************
This is based on the “competing scenarios” logic, which, for some reason, appealed to vapid mentalities at the time.
But all scenarios are not equal–the only standard–the Florida statute–stated “clear intent of the voter.” It would have been difficult to always determine that, but assessing overvotes would have been mandatory (this, by the way, is the scenario under which Gore won).
But, by cutting democracy off at the knees, the Supreme Court intruded into the political process in a sleazy and untenable way.
I really don’t care to hash-and-re-hash it (it was Capn who brought it up, and your afactual statement that produced my response). But this American will not , as they say, “get over it.”
Nor will America’s children escape the effects of the stolen election of 2000, considering the debacle that has been the Republican losing stategy for the last eight years.
Well I say you can ride that dead horse for as long as you want but it still won’t get you anywhere.
The next election is the only one you can impact. If I were a big McCaniac I would say great ‘keep it up’ but I actually want some answers to problems that will be solved in this election I hope.
History can’t be changed and you and I see it very differently. Gore did two things that lost that race for him. He called for the wrong recount and he couldn’t carry his own state. Either of those would have won him the election. In retrospect and his over the top GW position I am very glad he didn’t become our prez. Just my opinion.
ksgrm,
To pick up on Rage’s point regarding the Florida law as to ascertaining “the will of the voter,” there’s the matter of overvotes, which weren’t counted, and which broke overwhelmingly in Gore’s favor. Here is Professor Lance DeHaven Smith of Florida State University, on what was left out of the accounting when the Supreme Court STOPPED THE VOTE with a ruling that was expressly forbidden from being used as precedent:
***********************************************
“LdHS: It’s an embarrassing outcome for George Bush because it showed that Gore had gotten more votes. Everybody had thought that the chads were where all the bad ballots were, but it turned out that the ones that were the most decisive were write-in ballots where people would check Gore and write Gore in, and the machine kicked those out. There were 175,000 votes overall that were so-called “spoiled ballots.” About two-thirds of the spoiled ballots were over-votes; many or most of them would have been write-in over-votes, where people had punched and written in a candidate’s name. And nobody looked at this, not even the Florida Supreme Court in the last decision it made requiring a statewide recount. Nobody had thought about it except Judge Terry Lewis, who was overseeing the statewide recount when it was halted by the U.S. Supreme Court. The write-in over-votes have really not gotten much attention. Those votes are not ambiguous. When you see Gore picked and then Gore written in, there’s not a question in your mind who this person was voting for. When you go through those, they’re unambiguous: Bush got some of those votes, but they were overwhelmingly for Gore. For example, in an analysis of the 2.7 million votes that had been cast in Florida’s eight largest counties, The Washington Post found that Gore’s name was punched on 46,000 of the over-vote ballots it, while Bush’s name was marked on only 17,000.
RinR: For your research, you merged this set of data with detailed profiles of Florida’s electoral precincts. What did you find?
LdHS: One of the things I found that hadn’t been reported anywhere is, if you look at where those votes occurred, they were in predominantly black precincts. And (when you look at) the history of black voting in Florida, these are people that have been disenfranchised, intimidated. In the history of the early 20th century, black votes would be thrown out on technicalities, like they would use an X instead of a check mark.
So you can understand why African Americans would be so careful, checking off Gore’s name on the list of candidates and also writing Gore’s name in the space for write-in votes. But because of the way the vote-counting machines work, this had the opposite effect: the machines threw out their ballots.”
http://www.rinr.fsu.edu/winter2005/features/battlefield.html
****************************************
So, the guy who got the most votes lost because the Supreme Court ordered the vote count to stop: end of story. They cut off democratic process and installed the scion of the man who had appointed a number of them to their positions.
ksgrm, we will NEVER, EVER ‘get over it’, because Democrats didn’t lose in Florida in 2000–democracy did. I, for one, believe Republicans stole Ohio as well, given that all the 2004 election records were, against a Federal court order, somehow magically “destroyed.”
Having gotten away with it once, Republicans continue to position themselves to do so again. Stopping Republicans from stealing any MORE national elections is, indeed, something we can ‘impact.’
CF then if we want to go back and rehash the 2000 election then we would have to count the thousands of ballots from our military that weren’t counted at all in Florida. Also the major news media projecting a victory for Bush before the polls in western Florida closed caused how many thousands of repub voters to stay home and not vote at all.
We could go on and on and you will never get over it. But you still lost anyway you cut it.
Well, well, well. I’ve been trying to tell you libs for months that the superdelegates will decide this election for you. Documented comments/numbers of superdelegates from states where Obama won the state vote - but the supers are pledged to Clinton. Now apparently people are waking up?
The skids are greased. It’s in the bag baby.
Liberals are going to steal their OWN election!
ksgrm,
When votes aren’t counted, and the Supreme Court steps in and declares a winner, democracy–not merely Democrats–is the loser. That’s the point that seems to be evading you.
Democracy lost ksgrm. America lost and that includes you too.
The documented cases of democrats with election fraud is nondeniable. Convictions all across America. Acorns falling everywhere.
Philidelphia the center of political blue purity had to have the elections MONITORED by the feds because of PAST ELECTION FRAUD. Democratic Mayor, governor and a democratic race. Hell, they cheat on each other!!!
And you want to argue over a few chads? Ha!
Undeniable!
Yes AmWay, the old “its an absolute fact and everybody knows it!” proof.
CF2K,
So, when the Florida Court got involved and ruled against their own election law to recount votes, that is ok.
When the Supreme Court overturns that, then court involvement is wrong.
Nope, no double standard there.
American Way,
No dice: document the claims. Give us the links. And, more to the point, let’s compare the record when it comes to the attempted prosecutions for voter fraud versus the convictions that Republicans have alleged.
Pushing the voting fraud canard allows Repukes to get off the defensive with regard to what REALLY threatens American Democracy: Republican-perpetrated ELECTION fraud.
Nathan,
Document your claim that the Florida Court overrules Florida election law.
Nathan they were cheated and don’t try to talk them out of it. It is the only thing they have been able to grasp for 8 long years and the fingers won’t unclinch.
Sad but true.
Amway you were certainly right about those ACORNS falling. Ask the GOP voters of St Louis about that one.
But I digress ‘there has never been voter fraud except in Florida in 2000′ Them are the facts and don’t dispute them.
If the December 12, 2000 SCOTUS decision was so damned wonderful, why did they state clearly that it was a one time decision and not a precedent?
Eh?
If it was a good decision in 2000, shouldn’t it also be a good decision in 2012 or 2048?
Huh?
On November 26, the Florida Elections Canvassing Commission certified the results of the election and declared Governor Bush the winner of Florida’s 25 electoral votes. On November 27, Vice President Gore, pursuant to Florida’s contest provisions, filed a complaint in Leon County Circuit Court contesting the certification. Fla. Stat. §102.168 (2000). He sought relief pursuant to §102.168(3)(c), which provides that “[r]eceipt of a number of illegal votes or rejection of a number of legal votes sufficient to change or place in doubt the result of the election” shall be grounds for a contest. The Circuit Court denied relief, stating that Vice President Gore failed to meet his burden of proof. He appealed to the First District Court of Appeal, which certified the matter to the Florida Supreme Court.
Accepting jurisdiction, the Florida Supreme Court affirmed in part and reversed in part. Gore v. Harris, ___ So. 2d. ____ (2000). The court held that the Circuit Court had been correct to reject Vice President Gore’s challenge to the results certified in Nassau County and his challenge to the Palm Beach County Canvassing Board’s determination that 3,300 ballots cast in that county were not, in the statutory phrase, “legal votes.”
The Supreme Court held that Vice President Gore had satisfied his burden of proof under §102.168(3)(c) with respect to his challenge to Miami-Dade County’s failure to tabulate, by manual count, 9,000 ballots on which the machines had failed to detect a vote for President (“undervotes”). ___ So. 2d., at ___ (slip. op., at 22—23). Noting the closeness of the election, the Court explained that “[o]n this record, there can be no question that there are legal votes within the 9,000 uncounted votes sufficient to place the results of this election in doubt.” Id., at ___ (slip. op., at 35). A “legal vote,” as determined by the Supreme Court, is “one in which there is a ‘clear indication of the intent of the voter. ’ ” Id., at ____ (slip op., at 25). The court therefore ordered a hand recount of the 9,000 ballots in Miami-Dade County. Observing that the contest provisions vest broad discretion in the circuit judge to “provide any relief appropriate under such circumstances,” Fla. Stat. §102.168(8) (2000), the Supreme Court further held that the Circuit Court could order “the Supervisor of Elections and the Canvassing Boards, as well as the necessary public officials, in all counties that have not conducted a manual recount or tabulation of the undervotes … to do so forthwith, said tabulation to take place in the individual counties where the ballots are located.” ____ So. 2d, at ____ (slip. op., at 38).
The Supreme Court also determined that both Palm Beach County and Miami-Dade County, in their earlier manual recounts, had identified a net gain of 215 and 168 legal votes for Vice President Gore. Id., at ___ (slip. op., at 33—34). Rejecting the Circuit Court’s conclusion that Palm Beach County lacked the authority to include the 215 net votes submitted past the November 26 deadline, the Supreme Court explained that the deadline was not intended to exclude votes identified after that date through ongoing manual recounts. As to Miami-Dade County, the Court concluded that although the 168 votes identified were the result of a partial recount, they were “legal votes [that] could change the outcome of the election.” Id., at (slip op., at 34). The Supreme Court therefore directed the Circuit Court to include those totals in the certified results, subject to resolution of the actual vote total from the Miami-Dade partial recount.
The petition presents the following questions: whether the Florida Supreme Court established new standards for resolving Presidential election contests, thereby violating Art. II, §1, cl. 2, of the United States Constitution and failing to comply with 3 U.S.C. § 5 and whether the use of standardless manual recounts violates the Equal Protection and Due Process Clauses. With respect to the equal protection question, we find a violation of the Equal Protection Clause.
————————
Since only a portion of the counties were recounted and the difference was noted until after the deadline - no votes should count. That was/is the law. The last sentence above says it all.
“With respect to the equal protection question, we find a violation of the Equal Protection Clause.”
Thus the Fla court sent it to the Supremes and we all know the outcome.
http://www.law.cornell.edu/supct/html/00-949.ZPC.html
ksgrm,
Don’t try to put words in Democratic mouths: of course there has been, and continues to be, voter fraud, perpetrated by Repukes and Democrats alike.
Electoral fraud, of the sort we saw in Florida in 2000, Ohio in 2004, and as perpetrated by the Bush Justice Department, is a far more serious and deliberate effort by the Republican Party, the Federalist Society, and rank and file Republican activists to deny the vote to their political opponents.
Thursday, October 26, 2006
Missouri ACORN Voter Fraud Scandal Makes the National News
Here’s the latest on the Missouri ACORN/democratic voter fraud scandal…
Kansas City officials say this is the most irresponsible and extensive voter registration abuse in Missouri in the twenty five years they have been on the job with the Kansas City Board of Elections.
That’s saying a lot considering there were 16 convictions of election crimes since 2004 in the St. Louis area alone!
http://gatewaypundit.blogspot.com/2006/10/missouri-acorn-voter-fraud-scandal.html
The people of Missouri think they were cheated big time. Did you notice these were democrats?
ksgrm,
Yes, in which the right to “equal protection” by a Presidential candidate–to create a ‘uniform standard’ that trumped the standards decided upon by municipalities–outweighed the right of voters to have their votes counted. Great decision, that. Remind me: 5-4, was it not?
Oh, and ksgrm? The Supremes were SO confident in their ruling that Justice Scalia insisted it was NOT to serve as further precedent. Here’s a nice summary of just how far the Supremes overreached in order to install their guy:
“The plain and simple fact is that if this matter could not have been finally resolved in Florida prior to the convening of the Electoral College, the appropriate forum for determining the outcome of the presidential election was Congress, the politically accountable branch of government and the branch that is expressly charged both by the Constitution and by federal law with this responsibility. No one has given this authority to the Supreme Court of the United States.
After the Hayes-Tilden election of 1876, the nation enacted legislation to deal with precisely this sort of controversy, and carefully reserved to Congress the responsibility to resolve contested presidential elections. As Senator Sherman noted in introducing this legislation in 1886, Congress expressly contemplated and rejected a role for the Supreme Court in such controversies:
“It has been proposed,” Senator Sherman explained, that in the event of a dispute about the legitimacy of Electors,
. . . the matter should be referred to the Supreme Court. But . . . we ought not to mingle our great judicial tribunal with political questions. It would be a very grave fault indeed to refer such questions, in which the people of the country were aroused, and about which their feelings were excited, to this great tribunal, which after all has to sit upon the life and property of all the people of the United States. It would tend to bring that court into public odium . . . .
In Bush v. Gore, the five-member majority ignored not only this wisdom, but the law itself. Their decision to prevent Florida from counting what the Court itself accepted as “legal votes” under state law may have been pragmatic, but it was not lawful.”
http://fathom.lib.uchicago.edu/1/777777122240/
The moral: Repukes steal elections whenever and however they can, and they do it in the open, shamelessly.
CF I’m not putting words in anyones mouths. I am simply digging for the history of what really happens every election. Am I proud of it? Of course not and I don’t deny that it happens in both parties.
I personally saw it happen in Wichita during our last election and did give testimony to that effect. Our democrat DA thought it was alright that Raj Goyle was inside my polling place introducing himself to those of us in line. BTW there were many that testified to this in my polling place as well as other polling places - none of which was his own place to vote.
It happens. Until we clean it up we will see the results. Bush/Gore was a national election and got more attention but I could post all day about the instances that are never reported.
CF you are mincing words. The Florida supremes said that equal protection under the law could not prevail if all votes weren’t counted. The election board ruled it complete on Nov 27th. Gore skewered himself by not asking for a complete vote initially. Once he was on record and his complaint was satisfied he had no other recourse. Everyone saw the joke of the ‘hanging chads’ and knew the election was getting out of the realm of voter intent and into the realm of the bugged eye chad interpreter.
This is over and time doesn’t permit me to stay here any longer.
Some Florida counties in the 2000 election wanted to change the rules after the election was over. They wanted to change what they saw as “countable” votes. There was no such ruling before the election, so it was a not brainer that the new method should be used.
Been said many times before, Democrats - Sour Grapes, Mid Game Rule changers and the fact that Al Gore lost his Home state.
Get over it, Gore lost.
Oh, and Gore lost.
And another thing,
Gore lost.
By the way, Gore lost.
If you haven’t heard, Gore lost.
“If you haven’t heard, Gore lost.”
And the country has regretted it ever since.
WS just for the record I am part of this country and “I don’t regret it”.
“WS just for the record I am part of this country and “I don’t regret it”.”
Your grandchildren will when the bill comes due.
Your grandchildren will when the bill comes due.
. . .and we’re already paying hundred of billions in interest on it.
Sadly, the bill is due now . But just here the cons squawk: the Democratic are raising your taxes!
Yeah, and the Republican’s are stealing your grandchildren’s inheritance.
Whoo, lotsa typos. Oh well.
Wow Rage and WS are now psycics! I happen to feel that having Bush where he was on 9/11 saved lots of American lives not to mention how many aspirin plants in the mid east that were saved.
My own personal opinion and not open to discussion since we would spend hours beating this subject to death and then both go away mad.
For those of you Obama supporters who feel Hillary’s continued candidacy hurts your candidate, let me give you the words of Mark Hatfield, one of the most decent Republicans who ever lived:
“The harder you run for office, the more qualified for it you become.”
“I happen to feel that having Bush where he was on 9/11 saved lots of American lives”
Damn, I would love to see the “logic” behind that statement - unless, of course, you actually meant we were better off having Bush read “My Pet Goat.”
“mrcontroversy” says –
“For those of you Obama supporters who feel Hillary’s continued candidacy hurts your candidate, let me give you the words of Mark Hatfield, one of the most decent Republicans who ever lived: “The harder you run for office, the more qualified for it you become.”
Your point (really, Hatfield’s) is well taken.
However, Senator Clinton is diminishing herself as she continues this squabble.
She’s turning into the yapping lap dog and as long as she keeps at it, she’s losing support. She started in Pennsylvania with a 20-point lead.
She’s also losing stature. Hillary Clinton has the skill-set to become one of the stellar United States Senators in American history. She’d probably be a good president. But she lacks the ability as a candidate to win a General Election in 2008 by a margin we really need to change things in America.
Some of it is Bill baggage. Some of it is blatant sexism. Some of it is a simple issue of style.
Thanks, CF, for the definitive explanation of how Gore was robbed in Florida.
The tens of thousands of over-votes (which were clearly legal votes under the “intent of the voter” Florida law) were not counted.
These would have made the few hundred hanging chads completly irrelevant.
The CONs aren’t that concerned about law as long as they win.
That is the attitude of the fascist, which they are.
Power is everything, morals and law are nothing.
Some of it is her blatant lying.
My point about the super-delegates usurping the elected (or pledged) delegates is simply that African-Americans have a long history of winning and then not being allowed to win.
If it happened again with our man Obama, I don’t think I could call myself a Democrat anymore.
In fact, I would support a Democratic challenge to Hillary’s Senate seat next time she runs.
Capn - a question (that I face as well): If Clinton can surpass Obama in total popular votes would the ’supers’ be correct in going with her? Right now she trails Obama by about 500,000 votes.
Well before I read everyone else’s comments..
Here is Randy with another love fest for Obama.
And what wonderful little nuggets of irrelevancy it is full of!
As usual.
“Time is running out”
It is? The convention is in August. This is April.
See not all of us are on Obamatime.
“Clinton has no chance now to overtake Obama in elected delegates,”
And the same is true of Obama with respect to Clinton. He can’t win either.
“meaning that Obama must somehow collapse or be fatally crippled as a candidate”
And just who says that won’t happen? And how fair is it to John Edwards that Obama got a TOTAL pass from folks like you in the media for as long as he did? Obama is starting to resemble an onion or one of those Russian dolls.
There’s always another layer.
“The scenario that Clinton proposes - superdelegates handing her the nomination over the will of elected delegates and a majority of voters and primary states -”
You mean if she operates entirely within the rules and uses the super delegates for what they were created for…
“would cause nothing short of a civil war in the party and leave Clinton’s touted “electability” against McCain much in doubt.
Obama supporters will throw a snit and the election to John McCain?
Well I guess if they can live with that as a consequence.
“Well I guess if they can live with that as a consequence.”
But you have said yourself, J R, that you will not vote for Obama if he is the nominee.
So how is it that Obama supporters (potentially) sitting this one out is a bad thing, given your position?
WSC, JR - I think the key is that whoever wins is perceived as having ‘won’ - thus my question about the popular vote. I know that I could support either of them against McBush.
You really don’t want to put off the civil war a lot longer do you Capn?
I’m sorry to say this. But I think you are star struck just because you shook the guys hand.
You would have been one of the last people I would have expected to support Obama after the things he has said. I mean that. And from me that is a compliment even if you do not see it that way.
I just didn’t see you as a work with the enemy kinda guy. I STILL don’t get it.
Senator Clinton isn’t making Obama shove so many people away from him. My posting record here shows he pushed me right to where I am at.
And Hillary pushed me right where I am.
I’ll put it to you WS.
What reason would you have NOT to vote for Senator Clinton?
My issues with Obama are well known.
What is your issue with Senator Clinton other then that she isn’t Obama?
And WHY the hurry?
There is one thing that would be in common with the 2000 election and if the supers did over rule the popular .
There would be a lot of people rightfully or not that would feel their vote was ignored. Particular if in the end Mc Cain would beat Clinton….WoW!
“What reason would you have NOT to vote for Senator Clinton?”
Same reason that you have for not voting for Obama.
Ben I don’t know how the popular vote will come out.
That is part of why I want the process to PLAY out.
One of my concerns as to Obama’s electability is where he has won versus where he has lost in the process.
You just can’t stack Kansas and Montana and Alabama against Pennsylvania, Ohio, and Michigan.
Not and win in any way ever seen so far.
Bluejay - I agree. I want to see the final results. And as I stated above - as long as there is a perception that the winner won (and popular vote might be the key) we will coalesce behind him or her.
Obama did not lose in Michigan - he wasn’t even on the ballot.
WSC - also agreed. That is why the MI and FL things are so bad. The sad irony is that if they had ‘played by the rules’ they would have become VERY important now as they could have voted the past couple weeks.
Capn - a question (that I face as well): If Clinton can surpass Obama in total popular votes would the ’supers’ be correct in going with her? Right now she trails Obama by about 500,000 votes.
Ben–That would be a tough question.
But it can’t happen based on what’s happened up until now.
J R–
Obama is absolutely right that we need to work with some people who self-identify as conservatives and independents.
Otherwise we just end up doing what the Bush people did, ramming our agenda down people’s throat until they won’t take it anymore, if we can even do that with such a small coalition.
As far as Clinton, I don’t see her as someone who will confront the conservative agenda. This is the woman who supported NAFTA for about 15 years until she poll tested it and decided to oppose it . . . in her speeches. She voted to let Worst. President. Ever. go to war in Iraq, and never apologized for it like Edwards did. She actually said that “lobbyists are good.” Her daughter Chelsea works as an effing hedge fund manager fer heaven’s sake.
Husband Bill threw millions off the welfare rolls, he dropped the tax rate on the wealthiest Americans more than George W. Bush did.
These are the working class heroes who made 10 million dollars last year.
Hillary doesn’t even talk about confronting the CONs except to say we need to “clean up Bush’s mess.”
I don’t know why people think she’ll be able to fight the CONs when she and Bill’s history has been entirely to accomodate them.
One of the odd things I read was an observation that was made about Bill Clinton when he became President. That the right made a real mistake when they attacked him, that the right had never had a Democratic President that would have been so willing to work with them ever.
Why would we want anyone with intelligence and common sense who is determined to unite the country and take a good hard look at the issues underlying the real crisis in America rather than focus on nonissues, when we can have someone who knows how to gulp boilermakers to prove she’s one of the working class, blue collar guys. She’s just so fake and always willing to do and say whatever in order to get the nomination. If you can’t see through her then you have to be blind.
See there it is again.
That Obama arrogance.
As a Clinton supporter, I at least TRY not to be insulting of the Obama supporters.
I happen to feel the same way only differently.
Obama is just off putting. He’s been given a pass by the media unprecedented in my memory and I don’t think that’s healthy. THEN when he finally gets a few tough question, he and his supporters get all outraged.
Here’s a list from DemocraticUnderground that sums it up pretty well:
Where was her “fight” during the Senate confirmation of John Ashcroft?
Where was her “fight” during the Senate confirmation of Alberto Gonzales?
Where was her “fight” during the failed Senate confirmation of John Bolton?
Where was her “fight” when she voted FOR cloture on the nomination of corrupt corporatist Priscilla Owen, clearing the way for her confirmation to the Fifth Circuit Court of Appeals?
Where was her “fight” when she voted FOR cloture on the nomination of unqualified fascist Janice Rogers Brown, clearing the way for her confirmation to the DC Court of Appeals?
Where was her “fight” when she voted FOR cloture on the nomination of religious zealot and homophobe William H. Pryor, clearing the way for his confirmation to the Eleventh Circuit Court of Appeals?
Where was her “fight” when she voted FOR cloture on the nomination of John Roberts, clearing the way for his confirmation as Chief Justice of the United States Supreme Court?
Where was her “fight” during the Senate confirmation of Samuel Alito?
Where was her “fight” when she skipped the Senate debate and confirmation vote on Michael Mukasey?
Where was her “fight” against the Military Commissions Act?
Where was her “fight” during this summer’s vote on the Iraq War Supplemental?
Where was her “fight” during the vote to extend FISA?
Where was her “fight” during the Walter Reid scandal?
Where was her “fight” during the debate on Telecom Immunity?
Where was her “fight” when she SKIPPED the Senate vote to strip TelCo immunity from the FISA bill?
Where was her “fight” on the possible impeachment of Dick Cheney?
Where was her “fight” on the possible impeachment of George Bush?
Where was her “fight” against the myriad scandals surrounding the current administration?
Where was her “fight” when she campaigned for Joe Lieberman against Ned Lamont?
Where was her “fight” when she proposed legislation to ban flag burning?
Where was her “fight” when she voted FOR the 2001 Bankruptcy Bill?
Where was her “fight” when she voted FOR the USAPATRIOT act?
Where was her “fight” when she voted FOR the renewal USAPATRIOT act?
Where was her “fight” when she voted AGAINST an amendment to prevent the use of cluster bombs against civilian populations?
Where was her “fight” when she voted FOR the Iraq War Resolution?
Where was her “fight” when she voted FOR the Kyl/Lieberman amendment?
For some reason, Hillary Clinton only seems to be “a fighter” when she’s fighting to feed her own naked ambition. Is that really what we want in a president?
“Obama is absolutely right that we need to work with some people who self-identify as conservatives and independents.”
Ok.
What are we prepared to sacrifice?
“Husband Bill threw millions off the welfare rolls, ”
As has been pointed out before, BILL Clinton did entirely too MUCH schmoozing with the right.
And welfare “reform” was part of Newt Gingrich and the con Congress contract on America.
Do we want more of that?
The only time recently that I have had any regard for Obama was when he said that if the Republicans came after him he would go right back at them.
And he only said THAT because Senator Clinton had him torqued about something.
She’s GOOD for him.
Here’s another good analysis:
To remind, the real pre convention magic number is not 2024 but rather 1627. That is 50% of the pledged delegates. There are a number of Super Delegates who have pledged to follow the will of the pledged delegates. They are referred to as the Pelosi Club as Speaker Pelosi was the first to speak in such definitive terms.
Obama currently has 1416 pledged delegates and is estimated at picking up 68 in Pennsylvania leaving only 143 delegates to reach 1627.
http://demconwatch.blogspot.com/2008/03/ultimate-delega...
Once Senator Obama has reached that point two things will happen;
1) A signficant number of super delegates will endorse him (including some Clinton Super Delegates)
2) The psychology of the spin will change completely. Hillary will no longer be talking about winning the delegate race but having to justify overturning the will of the democratically elected pledged delegates.
This will almost certainly happen during the Oregon primary on May 20th.
This should bring to an end the fiction that this contest has more than one possible outcome and we will have our presumptive nominee.
“Husband Bill threw millions off the welfare rolls, ”
As has been pointed out before, BILL Clinton did entirely too MUCH schmoozing with the right.
And welfare “reform” was part of Newt Gingrich and the con Congress contract on America.
Do we want more of that?”
You bet…welfare reform was one of the good things that Bill should take credit for. I guess I don’t understand why you think helping people off the welfare system is a bad thing. Why would anyone want to live below the poverty level their whole life? Talk about being stuck! Clinton’s welfare to work program was one of the best things to happen during his administration.
“…where he has won versus where he has lost in the process.”
—————-
J R, remember the contest so far has been between two Democratic candidates. When we have determined a nominee (and I am NOT one who wants that process hurried up in any way!) most of those who voted will be behind that nominee.
“You bet…welfare reform was one of the good things that Bill should take credit for. I guess I don’t understand why you think helping people off the welfare system is a bad thing.”
Exactly the sort of thing I’d expect.
From a Republican.
That it comes from an Obama supporter only distances me further.
CF2K
Posted April 23, 2008 at 2:44 pm | Permalink
“American Way,No dice: document the claims. Give us the links.”
Here’s just a few. But you can find lot’s more of democratic organizations committing voter fraud. Do a simple VOTER FRAUD on google. See which party comes up:
KANSAS CITY, Mo. — Four people have been indicted on charges of voter fraud in Kansas City, officials said Wednesday.
Investigators said questionable registration forms for new voters were collected by the Association of Community Organizations for Reform Now, a group that works to improve minority and low-income communities.
The four indicted — Kwaim A. Stenson, Dale D. Franklin, Stephanie L. Davis and Brian Gardner — were employed by ACORN as registration recruiters. They were each charged with two counts.
Federal indictments allege the four turned in false voter registration applications.
KMBZ News
ACORN’s Voter Fraud in Ohio is Part of Larger Pattern
New report shows ACORN has been linked to voter fraud in 12 states including Ohio
8/11/06, Washington, DC –ACORN’s recent run-in with the Franklin County elections board for allegedly turning in falsified voter registration cards is only the latest in a long-standing pattern of dubious elections practices. ACORN employees have been accused of submitting bogus voter registration cards and forging signatures on ballot initiatives in 12 states since 2004.
In addition to Ohio, ACORN employees have been accused of illegal elections practices in New Mexico, Florida, Colorado, Minnesota, Pennsylvania, Wisconsin, and Virginia among others. Here are just a few examples of ACORN’s pattern and practice of fraud associated with their campaigns:
Florida—When ACORN led a ballot initiative to raise Florida’s minimum wage in 2004, a Florida Department of Law Enforcement spokesman said ACORN was “singled out” among suspected voter registration groups because it was “the common thread” in the agency’s investigations from one end of the state to the other. One blatant example of voter fraud includes registering 68-year-old Charles Shuh, a former Democratic mayor of St. Petersburg, as a 30-year-old female Republican.
New Mexico—In an effort to put a wage initiative on the ballot in Albuquerque, New Mexico, in 2005 ACORN employees forged thousands of fraudulent signatures. Following their voter registration drive in 2004, a state Representative stated that ACORN was “manufacturing voters” throughout New Mexico.
Ohio—This is not the first time ACORN has been accused of shady practices in Ohio. In Cuyahoga County in 2004, ACORN and its affiliate Project Vote submitted registration cards that had the highest rate of errors for any voter registration group.
“Once again ACORN is using any means necessary to fool the public into supporting its radical political agenda,” said Mike Flynn, EPI’s director of legislative affairs. “ACORN’s decades of questionable elections practices and outright deceit extending throughout a dozen states prove this group is more about advancing its political agenda than about helping the community.”
To see an example of the fraudulent signatures ACORN submitted for their ballot initiative to raise Albuquerque’s minimum wage or to read the report “Rotten ACORN: America’s Bad Seed,” go to http://www.RottenACORN.com.
The Seattle Times adds that the announcement of criminal charges came after the King County Canvassing Board revoked 1,762 allegedly fraudulent voter registrations submitted by ACORN employees.
According to prosecutors, six ACORN workers “had admitted filling out registration forms with names they found in phone books last October. The canvassers filled out the forms while sitting around a table at the downtown Seattle Public Library.”
Operating in at least 38 states (as well as Canada and Mexico), Acorn pushes a highly partisan agenda, and its organizers are best understood as shock troops for the AFL-CIO and even the Democratic Party. As part of the Fannie Mae reform bill, House Democrats pushed an “affordable housing trust fund” designed to use Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac profits to subsidize Acorn, among other groups. A version of this trust fund actually passed the Republican House and will surely be on the agenda again next year.
Acorn and its affiliates have pulled some real stunts in recent years. In Ohio in 2004, a worker for one affiliate was given crack cocaine in exchange for fraudulent registrations that included underage voters, dead voters and pillars of the community named Mary Poppins, Dick Tracy and Jive Turkey. During a Congressional hearing in Ohio in the aftermath of the 2004 election, officials from several counties in the state explained Acorn’s practice of dumping thousands of registration forms in their lap on the submission deadline, even though the forms had been collected months earlier.
“You have to wonder what’s the point of that, if not to overwhelm the system and get phony registrations on the voter rolls,” says Thor Hearne of the American Center for Voting Rights, who also testified at the hearing. “These were Democratic officials saying that they felt their election system in Ohio was under assault by these kinds of efforts to game the system.”
Given this history, it’s not surprising that Acorn is so hostile to voter identification laws and other efforts to ensure fairness and accuracy at the polls. In Missouri last month, the state Supreme Court held that a photo ID requirement to vote was overly burdensome and a violation of the state constitution. Acorn was behind the original suit challenging the statute, and it has brought similar challenges in several other states, including Ohio.
A recent Pew Research Center survey found that blacks today are almost twice as likely as they were in 2004 to say they have little or no confidence in the voting system. Such a finding would seem like a powerful argument for voter ID laws, which consistently poll well among people of all races and incomes and would increase confidence in the voting process. Of course, voter ID laws would also cut down on fraud, which, judging from the latest indictments, would put a real crimp in Acorn’s style.
U.S. Attorney Fired After Failing to Indict ACORN for Voter Fraud
There are new developments in the scandal over the Bush administration’s firing of eight U.S. Attorneys. One of the dismissed prosecutors has revealed that he was pressured by Republican officials to target the advocacy group ACORN for voter fraud. ACORN was working on a voter registration drive in low-income and largely minority neighborhoods in New Mexico. David Iglesias told Newsweek that he found no case worth bringing against ACORN.
As part of the settlement, ACORN agreed to make improvements in its management, training and oversight of suspect voter registrations throughout the state.
The organization has run voter registration drives across the country, with allegations of fraudulent registrations surfacing in several states, including Pennsylvania, Ohio, Missouri and Colorado in recent years.
The Washington state probe began after King County election workers in October spotted apparently forged voter-registration cards among about 1,800 that were turned in by ACORN. The cards arrived a day after they were due for the November election.
OFFICE OF THE UNITED STATES ATTORNEY
WESTERN DISTRICT OF MISSOURI
BRADLEY J. SCHLOZMAN
Contact Don Ledford, Public Affairs ? (816) 426-4220 ? 400 East Ninth Street, Room
5510 ? Kansas City, MO 64106
http://www.usdoj.gov/usao/mow/index.html
JANUARY 5, 2007
FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE
ACORN EMPLOYEE INDICTED FOR ELECTION FRAUD, IDENTITY THEFT
KANSAS CITY, Mo. – Bradley J. Schlozman, United States Attorney for the Western District of Missouri, announced that a Kansas City, Mo., woman hired by ACORN to work in a voter registration drive was indicted by a federal grand jury today for election fraud and identity theft.
Carmen R. Davis, also known as Latisha Reed, 37, of Kansas City, was charged in a four-count indictment returned by a federal grand jury in Kansas City.
AP) An advocacy group that registered more than a million voters two years ago is facing new allegations of voter fraud and sloppy work just weeks before crucial midterm elections.
Philadelphia’s municipal voter registration office has rejected about 3,000 cards submitted by ACORN _ the Association of Community Organizations for Reform Now _In Ohio, election officials in three of the state’s largest counties have cited problems with hundreds of voter registration cards. ACORN is accused of submitting cards with nonexistent addresses, forged signatures and, in one case, for someone who died seven years ago.
“In my opinion, there’s a lot of words but little action in terms of fixing the problem,” said Matt Damschroder, elections board director in Franklin County, Ohio. ACORN was accused of fraud in 2004 in Ohio, Florida, Minnesota, North Carolina and Virginia, and in 2003 in Missouri.
Here’s the latest on the Missouri ACORN/democratic voter fraud scandal…
Kansas City officials say this is the most irresponsible and extensive voter registration abuse in Missouri in the twenty five years they have been on the job with the Kansas City Board of Elections.
That’s saying a lot considering there were 16 convictions of election crimes since 2004 in the St. Louis area alone!
And in Ohio:
Alleged fraudulent voter cards scrutinized
________________________________________
19 in Hamilton Co. suspected
By Cindi Andrews
Enquirer staff writer
Hamilton County election officials will meet this morning to discuss 19 voter registrations for people who may not exist, which would be a rare case of election fraud.
Board of Elections Director John Williams subpoenaed those named on the voter registration cards after similar handwriting and false addresses raised election workers’ suspicions. The sheriff’s department could not find them, he said.
The cards were turned in, Williams said, by someone affiliated with the Association of Community Organizations for Reform Now (ACORN), a group that represents low-income people.
Fraud Map: http://www.rottenacorn.com/activityMap.html
Voter fraud, again!
By Joseph Farah
© 2008 WorldNetDaily.com
It’s mind-boggling. The fraud is so blatant. Yet, not a peep out of the Republicans. They apparently won’t even know what hit them. The polls in recent days show them making big gains in this once-invulnerable Al Gore stronghold state. A mass mailing like this effectively registering tens of thousands of potential Democratic voters days before the election is a secret weapon held back deliberately to avoid detection, scrutiny and publicity. After the election, the party will be happy to pay a fine for any illegalities involved. Clinton will be out of office and untouchable as always. There will be a new regime in at the INS. And it will all be swept under the rug.
Racine, Kenosha voter application fraud alleged
2 charged, including a candidate
By TOM KERTSCHER
Racine - Authorities Thursday filed felony election fraud charges against two Milwaukee men accused of falsifying voter applications in Racine.
With fears of voter fraud on the rise, the charges are the first in the area filed in connection with Tuesday’s election, but prosecutors are also probing voter registration irregularities in Milwaukee.
Project Vote, a national non-profit group headed by the former head of the Ohio Democratic Party, Last week, the Journal Sentinel reported that two of Project Vote’s workers in Milwaukee are felons on probation, which makes it illegal for them to register voters.
Project Vote’s Racine-Kenosha voter registration drives were led by Damien Jones until last month, when he was fired after irregularities in voter registration applications found by the Racine city clerk’s office.”
All across America fraud by democrats.
Remember the record-setting turnouts of Democrats in every state where a caucus or primary was held? ALL those Democrats will no longer be splitting their votes between two candidates from their party, but will be united against the Republican nominee and there are TWICE as many of them!
“Remember the record-setting turnouts of Democrats in every state….”
Yes I do Linda and I was one of them. Switched parties just to vote for Obama. Then I re-registered back as a Republican.
Don’t count your chickens before they hatch. You don’t really know what they are…..
That’s why we hold elections isn’t it — to determine a winner!?
I’m fine with letting the process play itself out.
“Exactly the sort of thing I’d expect.
From a Republican.”
No JR, from a taxpayer!
So with your comment are you saying that people shouldn’t take advantage of an opportuntiy to get off welfare? I’m interested in why you would feel that way. Do you honestly believe that people are better off when they depend on the government for their subsistance?
Yeah, Max, you can see how the voter fraud is working out for us.
Al Gore loses.
John Kerry loses.
Wow.
With voter fraud like that, you RepubliCONs must be really afraid.
Meanwhile, electronic voting machines in Ohio precincts in 2004 showed 88 percent “no vote” for president even though the voters voted for every other office on the ticket, including judges.
Yup, nothing to see here . . .
Mary–
Most of the people on welfare are white children.
That’s who “welfare reform” hurts the most.
No Mary.
And I am not on and have not applied for public assistance except for medical for my kid.
I am not elgible.
I am saying it because it is almost impossible to get help anymore.
“Why would anyone want to live below the poverty level their whole life?”
They still do Mary. They just have to work 3 jobs and 80 hours a week.
As for me, I’ve never seen anyone who felt good about being on welfare. I think it’s a system that adds to a person’s low self esteem and dependancy. Even my clinets who are disabled hate the fact that they have to depend on the government in order to live. All of them would feel better if they were able to work and be more financially independant. My clients who work feel much better about themselves because they contibute and feel like they have worth.
Welfare is a losing system…the more people are dependant, the more insecure they feel about their abilities and they become even more dependant as a result. It’s a downward cycle. Humans are at their best when they’re challenged and productive, when they can overcome their problems and as a result build their self esteem.
One very smart psychologist once told me that “the best thing for a child’s self esteem is to have money in his pocket that he earned himself”…and that goes for adults, too.
I always encourage my clients to work..because they are less depressed and they feel worthwhile when they do.
Things to say, and work to do. Work comes first.
A good starting place: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Personal_Responsibility_and_Work_Opportunity_Act
Even Bill Clinton admitted that it sucked.
“you can see how the voter fraud is working out for us.”
You meant me right? The answer is not just the presidential election - voter fraud occurred in states where democrats won seats in congress by very narrow margins.
With the blue and red just about 50/50, every cheatin’ vote apparently counts!
CF wanted the information and the links (there are many).
If you try to understand, the question was about voter fraud and stolen elections. It isn’t whether your party won or not. It’s about criminal activity and voter fraud.
Stolen elections is a common cry I read repeatedly on this particular blog.
Just trying to keep things fair and balanced.
With the truth.
JR, you never answered my questions…I never said anything about you being on welfare….I wondered why you wouldn’t want people to get off it if they had the chance.
Capt..exactly, that’s why parents NEED to get off the system…if you depend on the government to support your family, then you’ll be raising your kids in poverty for sure. The only chance to keep families out of poverty is for parents to learn a marketable skill and work. The government can’t save you from poverty, only you can.
“The only chance to keep families out of poverty is for parents to learn a marketable skill and work.”
I wonder what information is available regarding generations on welfare. They used to talk about it in the 90’s. Is the example set by the parents work ethic reflected in their children? And childrens children?
G’nite all..long day tomorrow.
Children mirror what they live…of course what their parents do or don’t do has a huge influence on them. One more reason why parents need to set good examples of resposibility and self reliance.
Off to bed.
Voter fraud exists. But the numbers are so small that no one can really show a recent election that hinged on it.
On the other hand, one can make a strong case that election fraud has resulted in major victories for Republicans.
http://www.uncountedthemovie.com/
http://www.uncountedthemovie.com/trailer.html
Gosh Mary I am sure trying.
But you are older than me. Your fortune is made. And you made it during better days for working folks.
You don’t know what it is to be a working person in America these days. The deck is stacked high in favor of the exploiter…er employer. Trying to make it on your own you get to compete with folks who are not even here legally but are ever eager to be lower paid and worse treated.
And I have awful health issues. If I could get some assistance I’d take it. Fortunately my kid is almost old enough to leave alone while I scratch out a living. Thanks for caring while you watch the sun set over the lake.
Promote your liberal movie to someone else. At least I provided numerous links and sources to a myriad of reports.
But who cares?
Your superdelegates are about to make history with the biggest fraud in history! That’s going to be the big story. By the time Hillary has her 8 years, it will be time for Chels to take over.
Because everything is marketable and someone has to do those lesser jobs, we will always have poverty.
Not everyone can move themselves up, the way our system is set up it is impossible.
There will always be those who have to do the menial jobs. Back in the earlier days, even a milkman could support his family, and buying milk didn’t break the bank. Now why has that changed?
Because people no longer are able to work their way up. Its education or nothing, and that isn’t available to a lot of people.
“You don’t know what it is to be a working person in America these days.”
I certainly do. Still working and for the last thirty years I’ve had “better days”. Not always easy days.
But come on in! The waters fine.
its true, things are way different now than before.
I also learned something about why things were better for my grandparents ages as far as career moves. All of them were helped by their own parents to get settled into early adulthood. And it was expected once established, that they would care for the parents when they were elderly.
The following comments are complete poppycock bull:
“Because people no longer are able to work their way up”
“the way our system is set up it is impossible.”
Obviously you hang out with the wrong crowd. I see many, many people working their way up. I’d bet millions nationwide.
Not all have high education. Without going into detail, in my profession, I see entry level young people join teams (let’s just call them computer science/IT types) here. Many are young and impressionable. After working with us, they apply and take jobs in the same field, but for salary increases (and more responsibility beyond entry level skills). They stop in from time to time, or shoot me an email, or call. Some are on their third and fourth “bump” - having moved around within the field for higher