In its timing, handling and everything-but-the-kitchen-sink content, the abortion bill that went to Gov. Kathleen Sebelius last week looked less like a serious effort to curb abortion than an invitation for another Sebelius veto — and an issue for fall campaign mailers. Allowing extended family members to prevent late-term abortions, letting local prosecutors access women’s medical records, adding more hurdles for patients — such proposals deserve thorough debate. Yet the bill was passed without review by a Senate committee. “It’s every legislator’s right to use the rules put in place to represent their district,†said state Sen. Phil Journey, R-Haysville. But lawmakers should exercise that right with greater care, or do reproductive rights mean nothing in Kansas anymore?
156 Comments
Welcome aboard to the crazies from Operation Rescue. Now can we get a bill that is against gays?
(sarcasm)
Phil Journey hasn’t filed for re-election yet. What is he going to do? File to run for Judge instead? Is someone with this kind of record who we want for Judge? Not me, that’s for sure. Can you imagine Journey presiding over the grand jury investigating Dr. Tiller? Well that’s what Operation Rescue wants.
“But lawmakers should exercise that right with greater care, or do reproductive rights mean nothing in Kansas anymore?”
—————
Ms. Holman, Kansas has borne the weight of the so-called “reproductive (meaning abortion) rights” movement for quite some time. Kansas has bent over backwards for abortion rights.
Being home to the country’s most notorious late term abortionist has extracted its price upon the image of the city and state.
There should be respect for the law, but that also means there should be laws passed that can be respected.
When law makers pass laws that do not respect the authority of law, they force the citizen to both disrespect the law and the law makers.
Eagle
How about some “investigative reporting” on the abortion laws of other states?
How about telling us why people fly and drive to Wichita, from all over the country, to see Dr. Tiller?
How about a comparison of Kansas abortion laws to the abortion laws in New York, or several other “liberal” jurisdictions?
Dr. Tiller has laws, and some lawmakers, that HE bought and paid for, here in Kansas.
It is time for those laws to change.
“How about telling us why people fly and drive to Wichita, from all over the country,”
One of the almost non existent reasons people would come here and SOME folks have a problem with it.
Nose trouble.
“Allowing extended family members to prevent late-term abortions,”
MORE invitation for nose trouble.
“My nephews teenage girl is a little slut! She NEEDS a baby to slow her down and grow her up!”
“HE bought and paid for”
PROVE that allegation of corruption Paul.
Though JR touch on the first point I had a problem with, though not for the reason given. I do agree that it goes to an unreasonable extent. It would over step the bounds to allow extended family to have a say. I can see the logic of parental notice when it comes to a minor. But there is a discounting of the rights and mind of a 18 or older woman to allow even the woman parents to interfere.
The second point of allowing local prosecutors to access private medical records This is nothing more than a special interest violation of privacy rights. There should be a crime alleged before a criminal investigation can be done. And such an allegation must have merits on its own and not simply wishful thinking.
It truly is a sad day when law makers misuse the public trust to further their own personal agenda.
I think people that wear their ball caps backward look stupid, should those that agree with me get elected so we can pass a law banning it?
These lawmakers will say they are serving the public good, but that is a straw man argument.
For better or worst, there is a logical reasoning for abortion. The public would be better served if they were putting their energy towards education and treating the illness and not the symptom.
Amazing!
Liberals want to tell us what kind of light bulbs to use.
Liberals want to tell us how much water our toilets can use.
Liberals want to tell us what kind of cars to drive.
Liberals want to tell us how much money we can make.
Liberals want to tell us not to smoke.
Liberals want to tell us what we can and can not say, even in political speech.
However?
Liberals do not think we need laws to regulate the abortion of late term babies, that could survive outside the womb if born today?
Again, AMAZING how the liberal mind works!
Ben
George Tiller is one of the largest political contributors in the state of Kansas.
This has been true for a very long time.
I am sure that Tiller simply contributes money out of his love for our state, right????????
Ben, perhaps you have not done so, directly, but I do believe that other “greens” on this Blog have mentioned the money that Sunflower Electric and the coal companies have put into political advertising, in Kansas.
I never said that Tiller did anything illegal, as to campaign finance.
I do claim that Tiller holds way to much political power in this state, and that the Governor and the AG are STILL in his pocket!
writerdog
Actually, in Medicare or Medicaid fraud cases, Federal and State prosecutors seem to have no trouble obtaining records.
There is, actually, a very strange idea that abortionists are above the law, in Kansas.
It is very difficult to enforce our abortion laws.
Judges will order the release of records concerning any other medical or health matter.
Abortionists are protected, in practices, even if there is no specific law that says abortionists should be placed on a pedistal and never questioned—
That IS exactly what we do in Kansas.
As with so much surrounding this issue, my convictions (and emotions) aren’t static over time. I’m not in favor of “hurdles”; however, I am in favor of something Dr. Tiller actually includes on his own website: pictures of embryonic/fetal/infant development.
I do not favor harassment or histrionics or hatred; I do not criticize fellowship, guidance and ministry if the patient seeks it. However, the issue of underage patients raises pertinent questions.
Parents SHOULD be engaged in their minors’ lives. But some parents AREN’T. Parents SHOULD be responsible adults. But some aren’t. As John Kerry asked George Bush nearly four years ago, “What does parental notification mean if a pregnant 10-year-old has been raped (and impregnated) by her father?”
This question cannot be ignored, nor can the equally vital issue of parental rights and responsibilities.
When a teenager needs her parent’s permission to pierce her ears - but can secure an abortion without it - this is alarming, in my view. Then again, what about the (rare) case which Kerry cited?
Last night, I re-viewed the DVD “Unborn in the USA” for the umpteenth time. As has occurred so often with this issue, I’ve made mistakes. I was so insulted with Fr. Frank Pavone’s comparisons with pro-choice folk and Paul Hill that I missed a wonderful facet of his advocacy. The young priest has worked with the FBI to derail terrorist attempts on the lives of abortionists and their staff. The Church must uphold its commitment to life, Fr. Pavone admirably declared.
The director of Priests For Life has made other savvy observations - deductions which ring with clarion-like truth in my case. I do not, however, believe they are true for all women at all times. Certainly, this is one area where we differ.
I am probably unconvinced about the wisdom of allowing extended family members to deny or compel decisions such as these. Decisions which arise from sexual behavior - something for which direct guidance is needed if the patient is very young. Or seeking religious guidance without the onus of harassment.
How do we solve this massive social issue? I am no more clear today than I was yesterday, or the day before that. Were I a parent, I would probably commit the classic sin of overprotectiveness, which would likely have a negative outcome.
Indifference is a sin, too. Let no one dare question that.
Pall,
“George Tiller is one of the largest political contributors in the state of Kansas”
There are an awful lot of conservatives in this town who are considerably wealthier than Dr. Tiller. Are you telling us that conservatives are a bunch of tightwads that don’t contribute to political causes, or just that they don’t contribute to your cause?
What about the underage girl FORCED by a parent, to have an abortion?
Thing is, “Songbird” –
It’s NOT a “masive social issue.”
It’s the most intimate pesonal issue a woman can face.
And, for underage girls, it is also, perhaps, evidence of a crime, and the person paying the bill might well be a criminal.
Monkey:
I’m well inured to abortion - I had one at age 16. Yes, it is an intimate issue; no, I was not a woman. I was a vastly immature, anguished individual with an acute emotional/depressive illness that needed to be addressed.
As I’ve said countless times, I don’t purport to speak for every woman - or ANY woman, for that matter, except myself.
I’ve traveled the gamut on this issue. I’ve made certain decisions about how I can harbor those convictions and continue to live with myself.
Do I have the (personal) right to say that I wish I could travel back in time and proceed differently? Yes, in my opinion.
“Liberals want to tell us not to smoke.”
Actually Paul - I want to tell you TO smoke - a lot!
Econ101: Forced abortion is no better than rape, in my view. Anyone forced into an action, no matter what age, is not culpable for that action.
Any priest/minister/moralist with whom I have spoken would agree on that point, no matter what their views on legalized abortion may be.
Finally - sexual activity before one reaches the age of 16 is statutory rape in the state of Kansas, as I understand it. The very young are off limits in our society. They are not mature enough to be engaging in intimacy, much less parenthood.
But it remains my conviction that abortion should be confined to the earliest stages of pregnancy. When I hear cases of a live, birthed baby being flushed down a toilet, I don’t ask myself, “Was this baby the result of rape?”
If it was, the mother deserves sympathy and healing. It doesn’t render the baby tantamount to human waste.
Good one Ben. My first thought was something faster, having to do with a bridge.
To clarify the ‘liberal’ position on smoking - I have no concern whatsoever if a person wants to smoke - as long as he does not improperly inflict it upon me. I watch my team lose last night in a bar and there were people (KU fans obviously ;)) there smoking. NO BIG DEAL! However there are places where I would restrict such activity - not to prevent YOU from smoking but rather to protect the breathing right of others.
In other words Paul - our only interest in ‘restricting’ your behavior is when it impacts others negatively.
“Forced abortion” - another angle. How about the girl in one of those moralistic homes where she will be shunned if she shows up ‘in trouble’? Might THAT force her into the abortion choice as perhaps then she can hide the whole affair?
Our good catholic gov wouldn’t veto this bill!!!
“Dr. Tiller has laws, and some lawmakers, that HE bought and paid for, here in Kansas.” — Decon 101
You mean he bought enough Republicans; haven’t they been in control of the legislature for some time now?
Econ -
Liberals want to ban DDT o as to prevent the American Bald Eagle from becoming extinct. Liberals want to guarantee equal funding for women’s athletics at the collegiate level. Liberals want to empower police authorities to protect minor girls from being being sold into sexual slavery by polygamists claiming religious freedom in Texas, Arizona and Utah. Liberals want to regulate the markets that allowed the subprime mortgage market to implode, and to have exploited unknowing citizens from believing that they really could afford to own a home.
“Finally - sexual activity before one reaches the age of 16 is statutory rape in the state of Kansas, as I understand it. The very young are off limits in our society. They are not mature enough to be engaging in intimacy, much less parenthood.”
I believe that’s correct Songbird, except when they engage in sexual intercourse with their peers. (Romeo and Juliet laws. I don’t know if KS has them or not). My contention has been that sexual intercourse between (or among) consenting biological adults should not be called rape. My contention is, and some science agrees with me, that sex at a reasonably early age in itself is not harmful to either partner, and in fact could be beneficial. Bad relationships, pregnancies, STDs harm young (or any) people, not sex. Now nah, nah, nah. I can just hear it. Don’t I know that sex CAUSES those things? Sure, and you get TB from breathing, so you shouldn’t breath until you’re 16 (or 18 in some states.)?
I have also contended that the age of the participants is irrelevant and that good relationships between (or among) consenting biological adults can occur no matter what the ages of the partners nor the difference in ages.
I’m only basing this on the history of all of human behavior, though, so I could be wrong.
Also there are millions and millions of children who would disagree with you. Young moms can be and often are good moms. If they didn’t have to deal with so much moral/stupid b.s., they could be even better moms.
How about telling us why people fly and drive to Wichita, from all over the country, to see Dr. Tiller?
Well, gee, do you want tourism in Wichita or not?
I would add kelly that in many cases the indiscriminate use of DDT has actually made the insect problem worse as it has killed off predator populations and then insect populations rebound due to evolutionary resistence to DDT.
There are often better was generally called integrated pest management.
dk - I must disagree with you. A 30-year-old guy and a 15-year-old girl is and should be stat rape. Biological maturity is happening younger and younger; however social, emotional and intellectual maturity is not.
What about the underage girl FORCED by a parent, to have an abortion?
Good try, Paul, but it doesn’t fly. I’ve personally seen this exact scenario, and the doctor refused to perform the abortion. I’m sure that somewhere, in some dark corner of the universe, there’s some doctor that might do it, but this is NOT the norm. The patient has the final decision.
Ah, Ben, your team that lost was my team, too. I feel your pain.
Lawmakers seem to be forgetting the statistics released last week that says the majority of abortions performed in Ks last year were to white women between the ages of 20 and 29. By passing this bill they are trying to say that women between 20 and 29 are not capable of making decisions for themselves. That’s a powerful demographic to be insulting. Come re-election time, every woman in KS should vote against those supporting this bill, no matter what their beliefs on abortion are, just for the simple fact that they’re belittling the intellectual capacity of women.
Econ101 Posted April 6, 2008 at 9:19 am:
“What about the underage girl FORCED by a parent, to have an abortion?”
You mean Michelle Armesto-Berg, the one they keep trotting out at EVERY hearing and quoting on the floor during EVERY debate on abortion?
Here’s news for you, Econ: Michelle was an ADULT when she had that abortion; that’s a matter of public record and was clarified in a committee hearing. She keeps pushing it as something her parents “forced” her to do, when in fact her parents had ZERO authority and ZERO control over her health care decisions at the time.
Another radical “conservative” lie debunked.
Well said, Suzanne. What teen STD rates and still - though dropping - large unplanned pregnancy rate demonstrate more than any other is the utter failure of the “Just Say No” sex education strategy. Telling teens not to have sex is not a lot different from telling mature adults not to have sex - and it is the immaturity of teen decision-making that commands us to give teens a complete arsenal of knowledge and contraception strategies in order to lower even more substantially the rate of teen unplanned pregnancy.
Yet another abortion thread (Y.A.A.T.)
Pall,
“What about the underage girl FORCED by a parent, to have an abortion?”
What about an underage girl FORCED by a parent to have a tonsillectomy?
What about the underaged girl FORCED to have sex?
A woman.
A doctor.
And her god.
All the rest of us have no business in this decision.
Regular Posted April 6, 2008 at 11:19 am
“Yet another abortion thread (Y.A.A.T.)”
You mean, yet another attempt by the legislature to control women’s reproductive decisions, right?
Right.
Thought so.
#
Tom
Posted April 6, 2008 at 11:38 am | Permalink
Regular Posted April 6, 2008 at 11:19 am
“Yet another abortion thread (Y.A.A.T.)”
You mean, yet another attempt by the legislature to control women’s reproductive decisions, right?
Right.
Thought so.
———————-
How about…
just…
Y.A.A.T.
What about we don’t have this conversation because no one will change their position on it and as the day wears on people will start insulting each other, calling each other names and the blog goes downhill. Maybe if we reject this topic the eds will stop putting it out there for discussion.
Maybe we should teach more abstinence? I’ve heard that students that went through abstinence ed have figured out that drinking a shot of bleach or Mountain Dew will prevent pregnancy.
When the religious reich have their way the demand for abortion will increase as the reich encourages the spread of sexual ignorance.
“Regular” and Ksgrm,
The Senate just passed SB389 and sent it to the Governor on Thursday. It seems an appropriate thread at an appropriate time. Or should we just pretend that the radicals in the legislature didn’t just do what they just did?
No, we shouldn’t pretend the radicals didn’t just do what they did AND we should all take note of exactly WHY they did it. It has much less to do with abortion than getting reelected. The most guilty are WE THE PEOPLE who can usually be counted on to do just that — pay little attention and reelect the same bozos.
I can hear them crying now of how they tried, how the governor is at blame… And all WE THE PEOPLE will hear is the soundbite with no truth to it.
Tom
Posted April 6, 2008 at 11:57 am | Permalink
“Regular” and Ksgrm,
The Senate just passed SB389 and sent it to the Governor on Thursday. It seems an appropriate thread at an appropriate time. Or should we just pretend that the radicals in the legislature didn’t just do what they just did?
—————————————-
I’ve already read about the story previously and formed my own opinion. That is, it was a colossal waste of time to dump all of that into one bill.
Not having a womb, a law license or a particular interest in ‘war pathing’ a banner for protest, I read it and moved on.
Linda,
You’re absolutely right: This is about getting re-elected. More specifically, this is about the August primaries. I know a good number of Republican Representatives and Senators who believe this is a bad bill, but voted for it anyway. One Representative, whom I respect greatly, went on record with one of his concerns:
MR. SPEAKER: I vote yes on H. Sub. for SB 389. To do otherwise would be to support
abortion which I cannot do. My no votes on General Orders reflect a concern that I have
on legal and constitutional questions regarding venue and the people’s right to choose their
representation at the local level. The hidden agenda on the bill is to circumvent the duly
elected Sedgwick County District Attorney’s position on the Tiller matter. Whether we agree
or disagree with her, she is the elected choice of the people of that county. This bill isn’t
an appropriate remedy for that issue.—THOMAS C. (TIM) OWENS
Many of the Republicans who voted for this bill also did so because they believe the radical “conservatives” will target them in the August primary. They know that the radicals can turn out enough votes to make a difference in an election where less than 15% of the voters turn out; they also know they can’t win on this issue in the general election in November. If they did, I know lots of officeholders who would NOT be in office, starting with our Governor.
This is pure politics, and it’s being played with women’s lives.
Merely enforcing this bill’s provisions to allow ultrasound viewing by the mother and to stop coerced abortions would reduce the number of abortions and abortion mill profits enough to shut down filthy, unsafe Kansas abortion mills. Very few have been found in Kansas with enough spine to enforce state laws and medical cleanliness and safety regulations in abortion mills, however.
- - -
Progress:
“We should hire three or four colored ministers, preferably with social-service backgrounds, and with engaging personalities. The most successful educational approach to the Negro is through a religious appeal. We don’t want the word to go out that we want to exterminate the Negro population and the minister is the man who can straighten out that idea if it ever occurs to any of their more rebellious members.”
. . . Margaret Sanger, in a 1939 letter to Clarence Gamble, Proctor and Gamble heir, on the planned Negro Project and the use of black Judas goats to address human weeds in America
. . .
Planned Parenthood’s 289,750 abortions last year, a quarter of those committed in American abortion mills, were a 9% increase over the previous year. Just 11,058 mothers received prenatal care at Planned Parenthood’s abortion mills, a 20% decline from the previous year. [What mother would recklessly seek prenatal care in a filthy, unsafe abortion mill?] Planned Parenthood made only 2410 referrals for profitless adoptions last year. Planned Parenthood continues to sell millions of the risky Plan B morning-after abortifacient, and to target the black race for population reduction through legalized infanticide, using millions in taxpayer funds annually. One third of the dead babies are black.
The following baby-hating mother-hating Kansas “senators” voted against the Comprehensive Abortion Reform Act, which passed 25-13:
Allen, Betts, Brungardt, Francisco, Goodwin, Haley, Hensley, Kelly, Reitz, Vicki Schmidt, Steineger, Vratil, Wysong.
Bilious Sebelius’ veto, followed by heavy arm-twisting in the veto override vote, seems likely.
Parkay,
Women already have the right to look at their own ultrasounds. If that’s what CARA is for, it’s unnecessary.
There is NO evidence of “coerced abortions” in Kansas. I’ve sat through all the hearings, and have seen all the evidence presented to the Kansas Legislature. As I stated upthread, Michelle Armesto-Berg was an adult at the time of her abortion, and was not coerced by her parents or anyone else.
Enough race baiting. Enough lying. Or can’t you move your agenda without it?
Oh, right. Nevermind.
Arm-twisting? HAH!!! The KFL and Catholic Conference lobbyists were all over the Statehouse this session, physically grabbing Representatives and Senators by their arms, getting in their faces, interrupting conversations they were having with others, and browbeating them into voting. I was there, I saw it myself. It was a shameless display of political bullying, and they should be ashamed.
I see you are up to your usual vitriolic name-calling PUKIE!
Is Parkay a liar or is he just so utterly insane he honestly believes he’s telling the truth?
Doug - probably both.
Let’s have as many late term abortions as possible!
Go Democrats! The party of abortion!
Speak for yourself ‘Joe Arthur’ -yuo sure as hell don’t speak for anyone I know.
OK PARKAY — Time for some basic Grammar lessons for you and other lame brains… You are SO full of excrement when it comes to Margaret Sanger on this point…
“We should hire three or four colored ministers, preferably with social-service backgrounds, and with engaging personalities. The most successful educational approach to the Negro is through a religious appeal. We don’t want the word to go out that we want to exterminate the Negro population and the minister is the man who can straighten out that idea if it ever occurs to any of their more rebellious members.”
. . . Margaret Sanger, in a 1939 letter to Clarence Gamble, Proctor and Gamble heir”
Now, the key line/phrase in this intentionally flaming quote is the following:
“…the minister is the man who can straighten out that idea if it ever occurs to any of their more rebellious members.”
IN OTHER WORDS, Sanger wants some Black Pastors who can calm people down when a bunch of her ENEMIES come along with the idea of telling folk that they are out to stamp out Black People…
The fact that YOU PARKAY try to use this to fan the flame of Racial Hatred, makes YOU the friggin Racist here… NOT Sanger!!
And NOT Plnned Parenthood!!
Supporting abortions that kill millions of black babies every year, is not a good position for a pastor to be in Chas.
Shame on you.
And I thought you supported Obama!
More lies, eh Max??? WHERE HAVE YOU SEEN ME SUPPORT ABORTIONS??? SHOW IT, PLEASE… AND IF YOU CANT, JUST GO BACK TO YOUR CREEPY CORNER, AND STFU!!!
No Ben, that’s where you are wrong.
Democrats are the abortion party. Clinton and Obama BOTH supported partial-birth abortions, an especially gruesome method of abortion, not that any method is something you would put into your photo album at home. (Perhaps on your desktop)
Go back over these blogs for months Chas. You have been pro-abortion everytime the issue comes up.
Shame on you, phony pastor.
SHOW ONE PLACE, MAX, WHERE I HAVE BEEN PRO ABORTION…. EITHER SHOW IT, OR STFU…. AND STOP YOUR DAMN FRIGGIN LIES!!
Show one place Chas where you have opposed abortion!
You LIAR!
Chas has even argued that the Bible supports abortion.
Pure Phony Pastor - PPP.
DNFTPPP
NO MAX… YOU MADE THE ALLEGATION… YOU PROVE WHAT YOU SAID, OR BE KNOWN AS A DAMN FRIGGIN LIAR!!! WHICH YOU ARE!!!
Wrong again Joe. While Democrats have opposed making it illegal I have never seen the kind of enthusiastic encouragement of it that you seem to like.
“Chas has even argued that the Bible supports abortion.”
It is the Bible where god commands people to go and find women who are pregnant to rip open their wombs and tear out the fetus and kill the fetus. So Chas is blamed for knowing more about the bible than bible thumpers. How is this a criticism against Chas?
MAX — The Bible requires stoning to death a woman caught in adultery… The Bible days didnt have a home pregnancy tester… Therefore, if they stone a woman caught in adultery, who MIGHT be pregnant…
IN THAT CASE… I would say the Bible would require killing the Pregnant Mother caught in adultery!!
You want to argue out of that one??? Be my guest!!
But that does not say I AM FOR ABORTION!!
PROVE WHERE I SAID I AM FOR ABORTION, MAX!!
OTHERWISE, STFU, AND GO BACK TO YOUR CREEPY CORNER WHERE YOU BELONG!!
Thanks Doug — I forgot about that one!!
However, Doug, that WOULD have been during an act of War…
“Liberals want to tell us what kind of light bulbs to use.”
(No, we recommend using a lower energy using product.)
Liberals want to tell us how much water our toilets can use.
(The water supply is not unlimited.”
Liberals want to tell us what kind of cars to drive.
(No, we recommend driving a more fuel efficient vehicle to conserve resources and lower pollution.)
Liberals want to tell us how much money we can make.
(Pure bullshit - not worthy of a comment.)
Liberals want to tell us not to smoke.
(Duh - read the warning label on a pack.)
Liberals want to tell us what we can and can not say, even in political speech.
(No, we just ask that you curb your desire to use words like “nigger,” “faggot” and “Heebie.”
However?
(Your post was ridiculous, Rossell.)
And, by the way, pro-choice does not equal pro-abortion.
Dumbasses.
Ben
First, I do not smoke.
Second, to Linda and Ben: wonderful how tolerant you BOTH are, as to wishing me well. You want me to smoke and walk off bridges?
Finally, Ben, abortion DOES affect another human being besides the mother.
Kelly
Maggie Williams, Hillary’s campaign manager, was on the BOARD of a sub-prime mortgage company.
Try not to be so partisan.
The Democrat Party is full of real estate deals gone bad.
Tom???
Did I mention any names?
Of course, I did NOT!
Therefore, you owe me an apology. I did not name the “minor” that you named, did I?
However, I do know, specifically, of a case where a racist woman had her daughter forcibly transported to George Tiller’s clinic to perform an abortion on a late term baby.
Why? The grandmother of the baby did not want to be a grandmother to a Mexican baby!
Paul - my comment was in response to your LIE that liberals want to prohibit you from smoking. Had you not made that LIE I would not have made my sarcastic reply.
Paul - I will agree with you that there should be protections against a child being forced by her parents. Just as there should be reasonable judicial bypass in the reverse situation.
“Maggie Williams, Hillary’s campaign manager, was on the BOARD of a sub-prime mortgage company.”
I agree that there is some explaining to do on that one Paul. Just like with Keating Five McCain and Silverado Neal Bush!
Chas
You are fighting a lost battle on the Margaret Sanger bit.
Margaret Sanger, the founder of Planned Parenthood, was a racist, a radical eugenic racist.
Sanger spoke very highly of Hitler’s “racial hygene” programs.
Sanger wanted to require a “license” for parenthood.
“More from the fit, less from the unfit”
“Human Weeds”
These are among the many racist comments of Margaret Sanger.
She was a very hateful bigot.
Chas
You need to read this.
The National Right to Life Committed is very responsible.
You will have a very hard time proving any of this link to be false, in any way.
http://www.nrlc.org/news/2004/NRL07/margaret_sanger_and_planned_pare.htm
I actually think Sanger was far more guilty of racism than this NRLC link.
But it does put the matter into context.
Econ - you are changing the subject. My point was to demonstrate some - and just a few - of the good things that liberal domestic public policy has created through government action, not to make partisan points per se. There are plenty of liberal Republicans out there - they just shy away from the label, and call themselves moderates.
Everyone who has a daughter who plays high school athletics, or who has a daughter with a college athletic scholarship, has personally experienced the value and benefit of liberalism. Everyone who can see the American Bald Eagle along the Arkansas River, or at El Dorado reservoir, is also a beneficiary of liberal government public policy, and the list goes on.
There have been some misguided government policies too, but the fault is not with liberal policy per se . . . but without being more careful in the beginning of the implementation of the policies, or for not being self-critical enough to fold up the tent and reverse directions sooner than later when experience proves the action unwise.
Paul alleges >>>>
“However, I do know, specifically, of a case where a racist woman had her daughter forcibly transported to George Tiller’s clinic to perform an abortion on a late term baby.”
I am calling you on this one Paul… NO doctor or clinic anywhere but maybe China, would allow grandma to bring in her daughter, and demand an abortion, beccause the baby would be part Mexican… Not gonna happen… I am callin you on that one… Didnt ever happen….
BTW, Mexicans are caucasians… guess you know that… what was the grandmother and her daughter?? Black?? or Oriental?? If white, there is NO Racism… Ethnically absurd - yes - racist, NOT!!
According to Paul’s link Sanger was NOT a racist nor a Nazi supporter:
“So, was Sanger also a racist, like Lothrop Stoddard? Sometimes pro-lifers quote editions of the magazine she founded, The Birth Control Review, in which officials from Nazi Germany were published. Others point to ominous-sounding quotes from her letters, including a letter written to Clarence J. Gamble, M.D., in which she wrote that “we don’t want word to go out that we want to exterminate the Negro population. . . .”
But Sanger did not edit the Review during the time the Nazi articles appeared, and she frequently expressed disgust at German Fascism. The quote from the Gamble letter is also not definitive proof Sanger was a racist.
From the context, it appears as though she was (rather sloppily) explaining a misconception, not advocating racial cleansing. Moreover, she did not evince racist attitudes in other letters and speeches.”
Paul — your nrlc link is broken…
Why dont you READ what I posted earlier, instead of attacking??? It is very clear what her comment says… cant even spin something that straightforward Paul… But, nice try :-)
Spot on Ben… Thanks!! Paul has tried using that before…
Oh yea, Paul — “Forcibly transported” I believe that meets a definition for kidnapping… Shame on you Paul!! You can do your homework better than that!!
Paul - since you are so familiar with the incident that makes you an accessory after the fact for your role in covering it up. Have you reported the kidnapping to the authorities? And, if it was interstate that would be the FBI.
Chas
The fathers name was Angel Gamboa.
It happened several years ago.
The father wanted to break into the clinic.
I told him that he would only get arrested, and probably would not be successful.
I personally saw the clinic workers carry Angel Gamboa’s girlfriend into the clinic.
She was obviously sedated.
Chas?
Do you wish to play word games?
If you can be prejudiced against Mexicans I would consider that to be a “race” —
As usual, Chas, you play stupid word games but you never make a very good point.
In fact, it is hard to even figure out what your point might be!
Ben,
Continue further, in the same article, if you would:
“So does she get off scot-free on the racism charge? Well, not quite. As we saw with the example of Lothrop Stoddard, Sanger worked with racists and did not make a move to check their racist thinking. More seriously, she also promoted a eugenic ideology that led in the end to the gas chambers. Once society starts judging who is “fit” and “unfit” and determining on that basis who should not reproduce, the inalienable value of every human being is quickly denied.”
Then you witnessed a forced kidnapping… What you do NOT know is if the abortion was carried out, which I would bet money never happened… NO doctor would perform an abortion on a sedated female!! Not gonna happen… Dig a little deeper, Paul!!
Like Ben said, you could be an accessory after the fact… but not sure… best check with your lawyer, since you claim to know the perps… Just a thought…
I am still calling you on it… Never happe4ned!!
No Paul… Prejudice can be held against one of your own race… like being prejudiced against Mexicans… But, its stretching it to call it racist…
Ben
Police were on the scene.
There was nothing anyone could do.
Besides, Tiller violates the law on a regular basis, that is what many of us have been trying to tell those of you who ENABLE Tiller!
It is NOT illegal for a parent to force a minor child to have an abortion, not in the state of Kansas. At least, it sure was not illegal several years ago, when this happened.
There were several other witnesses.
The matter was written up in a Kansans for Life newsletter.
The matter is rather well known, in both pro life and pro abortion camps.
“Besides, Tiller violates the law on a regular basis, that is what many of us have been trying to tell those of you who ENABLE Tiller!”
How?
Ummmm I dont know of any pro-abortion camps, Econ… And you did NOT say earlier anything about the female being under age… So, which is it??? Was she under age, before we called you on the story, or After??
Chas
You can be a very presumptuous ass!
The fact is, the boy and his girlfriend got back together, after the ordeal, and stayed together for some time there after.
You presume to tell me what happened, when you don’t know a darn thing about the case?
This just proves that YOU, Chas, think that George Tiller can do no wrong.
“think that George Tiller can do no wrong.”
Bullshit, Rossell, just flat out bullshit.
Paul - so, she supported some ideas that others then mis-applied. That does NOT make her guilty of the mis-application.
The USA has a long history of taking action to prevent reproduction by people with inherited desease traits. So, because you are a citizen of this country that makes you 100% in favor of such actions?
WS
There are STILL several charges against Tiller, brought by former AG Paul Morrison, are there not?
Yes, yes, “innocent until proven guilty” and all —
but I already know that Tiller has gotten away with much that he was never charged for doing.
Paul — Question — IF you - as you claim - WITNESSED the event… Did you CALL the clinic to tell them the girl was under age?? Did you CALL police to report a kidnapping?? And maybe more important, WHY were you in a position to just happen to WITNESS the event, when you CLAIM to know at least one of the “perps” ???
Care to explain your actions/or lack of???
“It is NOT illegal for a parent to force a minor child to have an abortion, not in the state of Kansas.”
Then perhaps you should focus on making it easier to get emancipated.
“There are STILL several charges against Tiller, brought by former AG Paul Morrison, are there not?”
All misdemeanor charges related to paperwork.
“but I already know that Tiller has gotten away with much”
Like what?
And now you claim to know as FACT that which has never been charged??? And you know it because you have magical access to RECORDS??? Or what?? And IF so, why would you not make it known?? You know, hire a lawyer, file a civil suit… whatever it takes??
How much more of this drivel are we supposed to take here???
Chas
You are being flat dishonest now.
—-
Econ101
Posted April 6, 2008 at 9:19 am | Permalink
What about the underage girl FORCED by a parent, to have an abortion?
—–
Econ101
Posted April 6, 2008 at 9:29 am | Permalink
And, for underage girls, it is also, perhaps, evidence of a crime, and the person paying the bill might well be a criminal.
—–
Econ101
Posted April 6, 2008 at 2:29 pm | Permalink
Tom???
Did I mention any names?
Of course, I did NOT!
Therefore, you owe me an apology. I did not name the “minor” that you named, did I?
However, I do know, specifically, of a case where a racist woman had her daughter forcibly transported to George Tiller’s clinic to perform an abortion on a late term baby.
Why? The grandmother of the baby did not want to be a grandmother to a Mexican baby!
—–
Chas —
Now, after all of my posts, relisted above, you say something THIS stupid?:
“Chas.
Posted April 6, 2008 at 3:12 pm | Permalink
Ummmm I dont know of any pro-abortion camps, Econ… And you did NOT say earlier anything about the female being under age… So, which is it??? Was she under age, before we called you on the story, or After??”
—–
You are a real piece of work Chas.
It is hard to make a point in any debate, when someone refused to read or follow, in a logical way, what is being said.
Chas, you are impossible.
And — not very bright.
But, you are human and I would not allow someone like Sanger to get rid of you!
WS
Can you tell us for SURE what Chas thinks?
It seems to me that someone who can completely DENY that Tiller did ANYTHING wrong, without even bothering to hear the details of a case, it seems to me that person: Chas, puts Tiller on some kind of pedestal and does NOT think that Tiller is even capable of doing anything wrong.
Do YOU have a better understanding of Chas, WS?
And, WS, I did attribute that statement directly to Chas.
If you are saying that YOU, WS, do believe that Tiller is not above the law, and can be held accountable, well I accept that view.
If what was allegedly done was so egregious then why has the girl in question not filed suit against Tiller and gone public? I’m sure that OR lawyer the state gave so much money to would be happy to get his fraction of a lawsuit judgement.
I was… uhhhh.. working at 9 a.m. this morning… sorry I missed that… Besides, somebody was talking about a Minor in Ohio earlier as well… So, I missed one… That does NOT change the rest… And no, Paul, I am not being dishonest… It didnt take THREE links — all you had to do was show me one… I will admit that you said it… BEFORE I WAS HERE TO READ IT…
Now, you want to take on the REST of what I have posted??? Seems to me like all YOU want to do is call me stupid, and other ad hominems, that have NOTHING to do with what is being said here….
YOU witnessed a CRIME — Allegedly…. YOU apparently — did NOT REPORT it… YOU apparently did NOT call the clinic to tell them they had an under age minor… Which you know DAMNED well, they cant touch if she is sedated as you claim…
YOUR TURN… YOU get real here Paul… Otherwise, I am still calling you out on it…
Get it???
Chas
For Heaven’s sake, what happened was PERFECTLY LEGAL!
What happened was ALSO perfectly grotesque to witness.
There are others, on this very thread, that think that if it is OK to “force” a minor to get her tonsils removed, that it is, likewise, ok to force her to have an abortion.
I disagree, but that position does make some degree of logical sense.
You? Chas you make no sense at all! I am telling you that we need stronger laws because things like this DO happen!
And, you tell me to call the police?
Why?
The law I want had not PASSED yet!!!!
What happened was LEGAL!
A minor was drugged and forced to have an abortion, by her mother, because she was pregnant with the child of a Mexican.
“This just proves that YOU, Chas, think that George Tiller can do no wrong.” [Econ101]
You carew to back that up with anything besides your hot air?? How the hell do you know what I think about Tiller??? All I know is that he is operating a LEGAL clinic in Kansas, and has been for YEARS…. IF he has done something illegal, then let the State prove it… Otherwise, why dont you yahoos just back off from a man who is in legal practice???
“Being home to the country’s most notorious late term abortionist has extracted its price upon the image of the city and state.” - me
—————-
Or, we could just embrace the concept. Tourist attractions in Kansas are scant. So, how about state tourism brochures in collaboration with Tiller’s Late Term Abortion Clinic? Maybe with some snappy one liners?
“Bleeding Kansas - Now, more that ever”
“Wichta - Attractive abortion clinics with state highway frontage.”
“Extreme mental distress diagnosed while you wait”
The possibilities are endless.
Ben
On what grounds?
A minor has very little right to complain about the medical treatment a parent authorizes, while still under the control of that parent.
Also, Ben, even in the case of malpractice, family members are slow to bring lawsuits against abortionists.
Privacy and all, you know?
“Econ101
Posted April 6, 2008 at 9:29 am | Permalink
And, for underage girls, it is also, perhaps, evidence of a crime, and the person paying the bill might well be a criminal.”
So Paul - who paid the bill?
Paul - and do you support a parent’s right to PREVENT the child from getting an abortion if she wants one? Haven’t you been an advocate of a parent’s authority of the child?
“A minor has very little right to complain ”
I had gathered from your other comments that she was now an adult. And you seemed to openly support the fact that she had ‘taken up’ with the boyfriend again - presumably without benefit of marriage.
PAUL — THINK MAN!!!!
“A minor was drugged and forced to have an abortion, by her mother, because she was pregnant with the child of a Mexican.” [Econ101]
Can you show me any law on the books of ANY friggin state in the USA that says it is LEGAL for a parent to DRUG and FORCE a minor female to undergo ANY kind of medical procedure???
You are just SOOO WRONG on that!! And you knew about the kidnapping, and did NOTHING??? And you ask me why I say you should have called in Police??? ARE Y”OU CRAZY???
Ben
Yes, I admit it.
I want it both ways on this one.
I want Parental involvement, in order to prevent the abortion decision from being made in haste.
I also want it clear that parents can not FORCE an abortion on a minor child.
We say it is an important decision.
Actually, it is the “pro choice” crowd that looks hypocritical, when you say that the “choice” belongs to the minor child — UNLESS SHE WANTS TO KEEP THE BABY!
Chas
The law is NOT written that way.
We do not really have “permissive” law that tells us what we CAN do.
We have RESTRICTIVE laws which tell us what we can NOT do!
And, there is no law that says a parent can not force a minor child to have an abortion.
(I believe that this happened BEFORE Joan Finney signed our current abortion law, which does contain an “informed consent” provision, I believe).
Anyway, Chas, you are living in la la land. You think that the abortionists can do no wrong.
You think that families, and medical doctors, will always make the “right” decisions.
You are all for “choice” as long as the “choice” is to abort.
Even so
“If you are saying that YOU, WS, do believe that Tiller is not above the law, and can be held accountable, well I accept that view.”
NO ONE is above the law, Tiller, Bush, Newman, Hill, Sullinger (sic) Cheney, etc.
NO ONE.
Chas
Why do you keep saying “kidnapping”??
I can force my kids to go anywhere I want to take them. That is not kidnapping.
This woman forced her child to travel across state lines (From Arizona, I believe) to get an abortion.
That is not illegal.
But, still, if the “choice” of a minor child is so important — she that minor not have the right to REFUSE an abortion?
“Actually, it is the “pro choice” crowd that looks hypocritical, when you say that the “choice” belongs to the minor child — UNLESS SHE WANTS TO KEEP THE BABY!” [Econ101]
What PRO CHOICE organization do you know of who would be AGAINST the girl keeping the baby??? Thats just plain NUTS Paul!! And what’s more, you KNOW its nuts, and you still post it here…
And your little friends here dare call ME phony??? Geez!!
Ummm Paul…. Are you now denying that you earlier said the girl was DRUGGED??? Changing your story again???
Paul - you deliberately choose to ignore what I said above - that her parents should NOT have been allowed to force it. I guess they don’t teach basic reading comprehension in freshman economics.
Try again:
Ben
Posted April 6, 2008 at 2:31 pm | Permalink
Paul - I will agree with you that there should be protections against a child being forced by her parents. Just as there should be reasonable judicial bypass in the reverse situation.
And, I believe you better do some legal checking — Cause I am not totally certain that a parent CAN force a child to undergo a medical procedure against their will!! Look that one up — it might surprise you!!
But still, if the Choice of a minor child is so important — shouldnt she, that same minor, have the right to REFUSE an abortion?
Chas
It is perfectly legal for a parent to give medications to a minor child.
Ben
Posted April 6, 2008 at 2:31 pm | Permalink
Paul - I will agree with you that there should be protections against a child being forced by her parents. Just as there should be reasonable judicial bypass in the reverse situation.
Paul - LEARN TO READ!
Ben
Thank you.
My apologies.
I agree with you on that point.
Chas
You are wrong.
Ben, nice to see we agree on something.
I have no reason why I missed your post, the first time.
It is too nice outside.
I am taking a walk.
And Paul - FYI - there are judicial bypasses in BOTH directions. Are you familiar with the term emancipation of minors?
Econ101
Posted April 6, 2008 at 3:46 pm | Permalink
But still, if the Choice of a minor child is so important — shouldnt she, that same minor, have the right to REFUSE an abortion?
==================================
THATS WHAT I AM TRYING TO TELL YOU!!! AND IF THAT CHILD WAS DRUGGED IN ORDER TO BE FORCED TO UNDER A MEDICAL PROCEDURE, THEN THAT IS A CRIMINAL ACT… PARENT OR NOT!!! CANT BE DONE PAUL!!
Now go run off for your walk, and refuse to admit that you are FULL OF CRAP!!!
“Actually, it is the “pro choice” crowd that looks hypocritical, when you say that the “choice” belongs to the minor child — UNLESS SHE WANTS TO KEEP THE BABY!” [Econ101]
What PRO CHOICE organization do you know of who would be AGAINST the girl keeping the baby??? Thats just plain NUTS Paul!! And what’s more, you KNOW its nuts, and you still post it here…
You gonna ignore this LIE of yours too, Paul?? C’mon Man, try for honesty???
Darn, Where is Vaughn when we need him?? LOL
Econ,
There were two days of abortion hearings in August.
There were two days of abortion hearings in September.
There were two days of abortion hearings in November.
There were abortion hearings in January.
There were two days of abortion hearings in February.
There were abortion debates on the House floor in March.
There was an abortion debate on the floor of the Senate last week.
In NONE of those hearings or debates, which were almost completely controlled by YOUR side, was there any mention of or any evidence provided for ANY coerced abortion other than the one claimed by Michelle Armesto-Berg. If you have evidence of something else, where were you? You know where the Statehouse is. You know the Operation Rescue people, the KFL people, the Catholic Conference people; they were all there at those hearings and debates, and you could have handed your evidence over to them.
I’m sure there will be more abortion hearings starting in August again. Present your evidence. Make your case. Otherwise, I’ll continue to call the radical “conservative” charge of “coerced abortions” what it is: A lie.
Have a nice day.
Ben
Yes, I am familiar.
However, it is hard for a minor to access the system, in the first place, in such cases.
Also, how does a minor prove, in Kansas, that the minor was “emancipated” in, say, Arizona?
Chas
PROVE IT!
—
“THATS WHAT I AM TRYING TO TELL YOU!!! AND IF THAT CHILD WAS DRUGGED IN ORDER TO BE FORCED TO UNDER A MEDICAL PROCEDURE, THEN THAT IS A CRIMINAL ACT… PARENT OR NOT!!! CANT BE DONE PAUL!!
Now go run off for your walk, and refuse to admit that you are FULL OF CRAP!!!”
—-
It is NOT illegal.
Show me where any law prevents a parent from giving sedatives to a minor child. There might well have been a prescription. I only know that the girl in question needed the help of 3 people to get out of the car and into a wheelchair. She was drugged!
You are going off on a tangent, Chas.
You are sure that abortionists are saints, so you want to discount any eyewitness account of what takes place.
You want no laws to regulated the abortion practice.
However, when someone tells you what was witnessed, at Tillers, you wonder why the police were not called to enforce a law you will not let us pass in the first place?
Chas
NOW and NARAL and “ProCanDo” all opposed informed consent legislation.
The official “pro-choice” lobby does not support informed consent, in any way.
If a lobby does not support telling adults all of the facts, why would that same lobby support telling said facts to minors?
Tom
You called me a liar when you did not even know the details of the specific case I am aware of, personally.
You are a bit free with that insult.
Therefore, it carries no weight at all.
Econ, I still think it is ILLEGAL to dope anybody, for the purposes of a medical procedure…. haul them across state lines…. And then FORCE a medical procedure, when that person cannot sign for it!! That is NOT LEGAL in Kansas or anywhere else that I know of!! That mother had NO LEGAL basis to FORCE her daughter to have an Abortion!!
==============================
PAUL — DID YOU POST THIS, OR NOT???
“Actually, it is the “pro choice” crowd that looks hypocritical, when you say that the “choice” belongs to the minor child — UNLESS SHE WANTS TO KEEP THE BABY!” [Econ101]
MY response to that is SHOW ME ANYBODY IN THE PRO CHOICE CROWD THAT WOULD OBJECT TO THE FEMALE KEEPING HER BABY??
Now, I dont know what the hell NOW, or NARAL, or any of the others has to do with what you posted??? IN short, NOTHING to do with what you posted, and what I responded!!
PLEASE READ What I Post, before you go off on your tangents??? PLEASE???
Paul ignorantly posts >>>>
“You are sure that abortionists are saints, so you want to discount any eyewitness account of what takes place. You want no laws to regulated the abortion practice.”
============================
Paul you know NOTHING of what I think about abortionists… or what laws I may or may not want… What gives you any RIGHT to post this BS, when you know NOTHING!!!
How do I know this??? Because I have never TOLD you what I think of those things!!
It is called LYING to say that you know something about what I think on a subject, when you absolutely, positively, DO NOT KNOW!!
I will accept apologies later :-)
Econ101
Posted April 6, 2008 at 4:46 pm | Permalink
Tom
You called me a liar when you did not even know the details of the specific case I am aware of, personally.
You are a bit free with that insult.
Therefore, it carries no weight at all.
=========================================
Looks to me like Tom is Spot On with his observations… Maaybe you need to go back and read what YOU wrote earlier??
Heh Heh, pro-choice is not pro-abortion.
Ok, just call it pro-bashthebabyintheheadwith scissors then, if that makes you FEEL better about what you support.
Abortion by any other name is still abortion.
“Heh Heh, pro-choice is not pro-abortion.”
Yep, Max, some of us are actually smart enough and compassionate enough to realize that a difficult decision for a woman is best left to the woman, not some lame brained politician.
Pro-choice means just that - a woman has a choice as to dealing with HER pregnancy.
I would LOVE to see you post where ANY pro-choice advocate came out in favor of abortion as the first choice.
Come on, Max, you are such a hot shot researcher - I bet you can find something where a pro-choice advocate suggested that women CHOOSE abortion.
Go for it……………………………
#
Max
Posted April 6, 2008 at 7:26 pm | Permalink
Heh Heh, pro-choice is not pro-abortion.
Ok, just call it pro-bashthebabyintheheadwith scissors then, if that makes you FEEL better about what you support.
Abortion by any other name is still abortion.
———————————————-
. . . and Max by any other name is still a useless waste of biomass.
Ever meet a Republican who was ANTI Gun rights??? Most lilkely, not!!
Same principle… ProChoice MEANS ProChoice!!
Simple…
I’m so sad that I didn’t get here in time to participate in this thread. It frightens me so that the lawmakers bafoons elected would be so willing to play with women’s rights like this.
This is the far right wing of your republican party pushing this nonsense. Moderates, take back your party please!
And of course the lies I’ve read here are so downright sad, pathetic, and desperate. We know they did this just knowing that they’ll try to use it against Sebelius. I sure hope the voters realize what game they’re playing and it backfires fiercly.
We could have a democratic sweep of the state in the upcoming election. We vote out the right rights, and they just keep setting them up to be beaten down again. The Right never learns.
“Is Parkay a liar or is he just so utterly insane he honestly believes he’s telling the truth?”
I wonder if Parkay is already profiled on your website.
KsAgn — Huh??
Repubs. are getting worried and had to pull out their hot button issue!
Chas., I was replying to Doug. His organization’s website is here…
http://www.maggotpunks.com
Go to the FFF section.
Given parkay’s monomania on the topic and his demonizatiion of anyone who disagrees with him, I would not be surprised to find out that Doug and parkay have actually met in front of Tiller’s clinic.
Note: The above linking is not necessarily an endorsement of the maggotpunks website.
I am pro-choice, but there are people and viewpoints on the “pro-life” (put in quotation marks because I don’t think “pro-life” is as simple as some of its advocates make it out to be, but I do prefer to address advocates of a view by their own preferred terminology when possible) who I greatly, greatly respect. People who put their work and their personal lives where their mouths are.
However, the people who verbally assault women on their way to a clinic, or behave as parkay does on these threads are not among the\ose “pro-life” people who I respect.
Paul - some questions about that case you claim to know so intimately. As I understand your claims the girl was a child and you know the father who opposed the abortion. Since it would seem that the father - your friend - was guilty of statuatory rape did you turn your friend in? You then stated that the girl and the father are back together. Is she still a child? More stat rape?
At one of the hearings on the abortion bill earlier this year, Operation Rescue submitted “evidence” of illegal late-term abortions. Their “evidence” consisted of pictures taken of apparently pregnant women entering Tiller’s clinic.
Here’s the funny thing: There were NO pictures of the same women leaving the clinic apparently no longer pregnant. Just going in.
Here’s the even funnier thing: One of the pictures given as “evidence” is of one of the clinic’s staffers. She showed up at the hearing, still pregnant. I hear she’s due sometime this month.
So much for “evidence.”
I agree with KSAgnostic: I respect those on the pro-life position if they are - #1 - truly pro life. That is, if their people skills are superlative. And/or - if they are pro life in totality - not just for the unborn. If they have truly helped others.
Not all pro-lifers are caricatures of Randall Terry - the mini-messiah who excoriated Bill Clinton for the very things he’s been rebuked for - in spades.
Or Neal Horsley - someone whose love of bestiality is a match for his current behavior toward women (especially aborting women). In a nutshell, it’s disgusting. And a lot