If you feel like you’re stuck on the down escalator financially, no matter how hard you try to get ahead, it may be because you actually are. Even though workers are producing more, inflation-adjusted median family income has dropped 2.6 percent — or nearly $1,000 annually since 2000, the Washington Post reported. The main reason is that rising health care costs are causing many businesses to limit wage increases and to pass more costs on to workers.
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182 Comments
Why is this a surprise to anyone? Someone has to pay the cost of our out of comtrol health care system. It’s time to overall eveything and take all the billionaire middle men out of the health care industry..from the inurance companies to the drug companies who are making a fortune off of the American people.
Why is it that “non profit” hospitals are buying up real estate and look more like 5 star hotels than hospitals? Why do we have duplication of services everywhere we look? How many MRI machines or surgery centers does one city need?
Why do the CEOs for the hospitals and drug companies have such outrageous salarys? Why does one pill to treat osteoporosis cost more than $40? Why should it cost $4,000 just to rent a surgery suite for under two hours? Why is it OK that drug companies spend billions on advertising, even more than they do on research.
Maybe it’s time for some regulations to bring down the cost of health care so that the average American can afford it again…right now if a person doesn’t have insurance or government funded benefits, they’ll go bankrupt if they get sick and they’ll lose everything. That’s just not right.
I know that most rebuplicans shutter at the thought of more government regulations on industry…but without it we are all at the mercy of corporation greed. Things have to change, it’s long overdue.
Damn those evil employers!
“Since 2001, premiums for family health coverage have increased 78 percent, according to a 2007 report by the Kaiser Family Foundation. Premiums averaged $12,106, of which workers paid $3,281, according to the report.”
Mary, I was viewing my bills for a recent surgery and most costs are just astronomical. For less than a 4 hour ‘visit’ to such a facility the price was $8,000. You can’t tell me it cost that much to give me anesthesia, use an operating room for 30 minutes, and wake me up in recovery.
and the cost of liability insurance for each of those steps?
In additon, in reviewing my statements I note what is charged by the physician vs what is allowed by the insurance company if you go to a ‘participating physician’. In most instances the physician writes off the portion that is not allowed. So, a person that doesn’t have insurance has to pay the full amount charged because they don’t have an insurance company saying they won’t? so who is the biggest offender here? Is it a monopoly by both the physician and insurance companies? I don’t understand how physicians think they can charge $250 for a 15 minute office call.
Oh stop your whining…It costs a lot of money for Doctors to fuel up those Hummers – they need the bucks.
(smirks)
Bullshit!!!
Income has dropped because of employers and social class greed.
Here is a valid example of that.
You can go to any major corporation and you would see a buffet of delightful dishes being cater in the executive offices almost on a daily bases but the lower class people (only at their break time) have the high sugar and high fat snacks of vending machines.
Does anyone factor in the multi million dollar awards that juries are giving out like candy? Someone has to pay for those, and you know the malpractice insurance companies are not going to take a loss.
Actually, I bet alot of those costs can very easily be explained.
Mary, exactly what do you view to be an “outrageous” salary?
The fact that companies can make money is what drives the innovation in this country.
You can look to American innovation to supply the rest of the world with our medicine and medical technology.
The reason why Corporations spend so much on advertising is because it works. People are like sheep and go to their doctors asking for medicine. I don’t agree with it, I think Americans are over prescribed with medication.
Reverse the laws and make it illegal again to run a health care business as a for-profit business. Back in the day health care costs were quite low because there wasn’t a huge cut for huge CEO salaries and shareholders. If we went to universal health care we could cut out the middleman insurance companies that gouge the consumers and limit the doctor’s ability to do his job.
?,
Good point. Look at the hundred million dollar lawsuits people like John Edwards get against insurance companies.
Where do you think that money comes from? Increased premiums.
Nathan, here’s one for you:
Will McGuire of UnitedHealth Group made $124.8 million in 2004.
Will McGuire of UnitedHealth Group made $124.8 million in 2004.
How much did he pay out in insurance? How much did his schooling cost? Continuing ed?
Doug,
How much of that was in cashed out stock options?
That man took UnitedHealth and raised their company’s value more than 10 fold in the first 5 years.
He makes that much money because he is a successful leader.
Yeah Nathan, keep on dreaming that high salary means high competence. The profit from stock comes from the money gouged from consumers. A health insurance company makes it’s money solely from acquiring dues and not paying anything in services.
Here’s some other successful leaders and their salaries:
James Cayne of Bear Stearns, $232 million in compensation over the period from 1993 to 2006. His company had to be bought up before completely collapsing.
Alan Mulally, of Ford Motor, for four months on the job he pulled in $28 million while the stock plummeted and thousands of workers were laid off.
The folks at Enron, in 2000 alone, the top five executives received payments of $282.7 million. The company completely collapsed.
There are many, many more examples.
Here’s what I would mean by an “outrageous” salary:
Caremark CEO – $69.66 million total compensation
Aetna – $30.86 million
Cigna – $28.82 million
Guidant – $25.12 million
Medtronic – $12.24 million
WellPoint – $10.16 million
Coventry – $ 7.46 million
Humana – $3.33 million
These are yearly numbers (taking into account stock and other goodies) but they get all of this on the backs of people that they will find any way possible to deny. Or they charge exorbitant prices for the products they produce (see Medtronic).
Just my thoughts.
“To live like a Republican, you have to vote Democratic.” Harry S. Truman
How much did the CEO of Bear Stearns make right before the company went bankrupt?
http://www.forbes.com/lists/2006/12/9X3I.html
James E Cayne
Total Compensation
$28.40 mil (#36)
5-Year Compensation Total
$132.14 mil
James E Cayne has been CEO of Bear Stearns Cos (BSC) for 13 years. Mr. Cayne has been with the company for 37 years .The 72 year old executive ranks 6 within Diversified Financials.
THANK GOD, BUSH CUT HIS TAXES!
Those CEOs make huge salaries so they can deny life saving care to their customers:
http://calitics.com/showDiary.do?diaryId=5389
Oops, sorry, Doug.
You beat me to it.
Great minds think alike . . .
And now the issue turns from health care into a generic argument against highly paid CEO’s.
Well, how many of you continue to go watch baseball games? football games? and the many other sports?
Do you watch them on ESPN, which you pay for each month?
You are the ones contributing to those highly overpaid athletes.
Funny, I don’t see you complainging about hundred million dollar contracts with them though. And what they do is far less than what a CEO does.
Capn,
When Bear Stearns was collapsing Cayne couldn’t be bothered because he was spending the day at a Bridge tournament. Those millions bought some real successful leaders that day.
http://www.reuters.com/article/bankingFinancial/idUSN1649428620080317
For-profit health care is as viable as for-profit sewer systems. And stinks just as badly.
Nathan is telling us that he wouldn’t mind seeing someone die if it meant that he could make an extra few bucks in that person’s death. Such positive Christian morals. Maybe he should belong to a religion where the religious figure went around healing the sick as a positive example to his followers.
Nathan?
You know free-enterprise you like so much?
Why don’t professional sports teams have it?
Try to start your own NFL or NBL team. It cannot be done. Teams are limited to a set monopoly.
Doug: I remeber those days as well when costs were lower, but then many hospitals were run by faith based folks who did not make a half million bucks a year, or had to justify a 25+% ROI to the shareholders. I recall the hospitals where the administration staff and nurses were members of an order in the Catholic Church, St. Josephs I think. Years ago after giving blood at a hospital I saw a nun pour something out of a frosted bottle labelled “Spiritus Sanctum”, and gave it to my Dad….it was brandy. Now that kind of thing won’t ever see again no matter who runs the system, profit based, or otherwise. Nobody ever sued a nun either.
Mulaly is just lucky he found a new position before the crap hit the fan on his big outsourcing vision for the 787 was put into application.
Capn,
No sports franchise has ever had a profit. They have to be subsidized by taxpayers. The latest example is Wichita, KS where the people were taxed in order to build a new stadium. All the free market (unless they need to be bailed out by the government as a result of their successful leadership) folks would have you believe that they created the stadiums themselves. Nah, the people pay for them and the government hands over the keys. That’s how George Bush made millions in Texas.
Doug,
I believe that we have better life saving drugs, machines, companies, and facilities because there is profit in it.
You would rather see us in the dark ages of medicine as long as no one is making any money at it.
Show me a CEO that is 100 times smarter, or works 100 times harder than their average employee, and I’ll agree they deserve 100 times their compensation.
Nathan, for the record I don’t watch televised sports, nor do I attend national league games.
Phantom,
As usual, you look only at the end result not the road that led there.
I can show you a CEO who finished top in his school, worked harder and longer than his peers, has shown a constant ability to take a company to higher profits and being better run, and then interject that person into a competitive market where companies seek leaders who can make their company better and then you have someone worth 100 times more than the guy in the postal room sorting mail.
Professional athletes are entertainers, just like rock stars, country music stars or actors and actresses.
They are not overpaid. They are paid what the market will bear.
If you do not like the fact that LeBron James makes more money than god, don’t go to watch him or buy the products that he endorses.
Why would a good capitalist complain about “overpaid” athletes?
They are just selling their services.
WS Clark,
EXACTLY! Hence the comparison:
“They are not overpaid. They are paid what the market will bear.”
There is your answer to why a CEO makes millions.
“Even though workers are producing more, inflation-adjusted median family income has dropped 2.6 percent — or nearly $1,000 annually since 2000,”
Of COURSE! That is exactly what Republicans are elected to do.
Steal from the poor to give to the rich.
Pharmaceutical marketing costs more than the industry’s R & D:
“Conclusion
“From this new estimate, it appears that pharmaceutical companies spend almost twice as much on promotion as they do on R&D. These numbers clearly show how promotion predominates over R&D in the pharmaceutical industry, contrary to the industry’s claim. While the amount spent on promotion is not in itself a confirmation of Kefauver’s depiction of the pharmaceutical industry, it confirms the public image of a marketing-driven industry and provides an important argument to petition in favor of transforming the workings of the industry in the direction of more research and less promotion.”
http://medicine.plosjournals.org/perlserv/?request=get-document&doi=10.1371/journal.pmed.0050001&ct=1
Business costs are usually used to enhance business not necessarily the quality of the product. Regulation would benefit consumers. Sorry guys, just the truth…
I’m curious why this isn’t a thread on the latest Bush attempt at creating another federal bureaucracy with the overhaul of the federal financial regulations.
Didn’t they just do that with the TSA boondoggle? Tell me that hasn’t been a major nightmare, and I got a bridge I’ll sell you cheap.
Just wtf does this idiot think he’s doing? If anything, the current housing crisis should be worked out before shooting for a final, screwed up decision by the “decider.”
From what I’ve read about it, it ain’t a feather in Bush’s cap, but a shaft up the average Americans collective derrière. Just another attempt at making life more difficult for the average joe by a republican administration with the conscience of yesterdays news.
Steve, you beat me to it. Advocates of the “free market” claim high drug prices are the result of research dollars. However the free market is supported by taxpayer subsidies especially lots of research at the taxpayer subsidized universities.
Drug companies have a lot of lobbyists in D.C. to insure that they can keep on charging inflated prices while receiving lot of government cheese. How much profit was taken in when treatments for smallpox and polio were invented? Some of the greatest cures were developed when health care costs were much lower.
Nathan, your example (allowing you could find one) would be the exception rather than the rule.
CEO’s are just like politicians (bush for instance) their position involved much more than being the smartest, most driven, or even most visionary. It involved family, connection and brown nosing.
If a person creates the product, creates the company, or provides the capital, I have no problem if the make gazillions.
But most CEO’s bring nothing new to the corporation they lead except themselves.
Doug,
The treatment for smallpox was no only developed when “health care” was much lower, but when there was not any concept of health care at all as we know it today… LOL
The “myth” of affordable health care being part of the American history is not quite a myth, but only really applicable to a few years. My generaiton, even growing up, did not have :affordable” health care. My fathers generation certainly not, and his even less. Health care is far more accessible to the average worker, or even the poor, than it was in previous generations. Yes, the local doctor might take chickens in payment, but you certainly did not get specialized care. Even growing up, there were many times that doctors, or prescriptions, were temporartily on hold while finances improved. Gimme a break. Been there, done that
Phantom,
That is just plain outright false. Most CEO’s bring in higher profits and a better run company.
Otherwise they fire that CEO and hire another one.
“Doug
Posted March 31, 2008 at 12:44 pm | Permalink
Reverse the laws and make it illegal again to run a health care business as a for-profit business’
Please provide data with links showing when it was illegal to run a health care business as a for profit business. Be specific.
“That is just plain outright false. Most CEO’s bring in higher profits and a better run company.”
Actually, most CEO’s sole focus is the value of the stock on a short-term basis.
For example, announcing a layoff of employees almost always results in the stock going up, regardless of the impact on the operation.
Littlejohn,
Excellent point.
Doctors back then didn’t neccisarily have to have a degree or any accreditation either.
The free market is what has helped America have the wonderful health care we do today.
WS Clark,
Please share with us your vast and infinite experience in running a company and know all the CEO’s that do in your coming up with the conclusion that:
“Actually, most CEO’s sole focus is the value of the stock on a short-term basis.”
LOL
rudge Report | February 9 2005
Last Friday when promoting social security reform with ‘regular’ citizens in Omaha, Nebraska, President Bush walked into an awkward unscripted moment in which he stated that carrying three jobs at a time is ‘uniquely American.’
While talking with audience participants, the president met Mary Mornin, a woman in her late fifties who told the president she was a divorced mother of three, including a ‘mentally challenged’ son.
The President comforted Mornin on the security of social security stating that ‘the promises made will be kept by the government.’
But without prompting Mornin began to elaborate on her life circumstances.
Begin transcript:
MS. MORNIN: That’s good, because I work three jobs and I feel like I contribute.
THE PRESIDENT: You work three jobs?
MS. MORNIN: Three jobs, yes.
THE PRESIDENT: Uniquely American, isn’t it? I mean, that is fantastic that you’re doing that. (Applause.) Get any sleep? (Laughter.)
Comments: not only is Mr. President out of touch with working people, he does not seem to care that this woman (and many others in similar situations) may be suffering in her present circumstances. Nor does he offer her any comfort. His attitude represents the mean-ness that is spreading among those in the upper classes, those that receive the tax cuts. I know this is not well-written (it’s early) but I had to get it out there.
WELL written!
“Actually, most CEO’s sole focus is the value of the stock on a short-term basis.”
That is pretty much the truth. And it is killing America.
J R
Posted March 31, 2008 at 1:59 pm | Permalink
“Actually, most CEO’s sole focus is the value of the stock on a short-term basis.”
“That is pretty much the truth. And it is killing America.”
My God, the world is coming to end. JR and I actually agree on something.
Many,many companies only look at current quarter, or next quarter earnings or stock price, without regard to long term financials. Some of that is a consequence of pegging ceo pay to stock prices, which was done by some companies as a way to more closely peg ceo pay with performance….ie the rise in stock options as a greater percentage of total pay
“Comments: not only is Mr. President out of touch with working people, he does not seem to care that this woman (and many others in similar situations) may be suffering in her present circumstances. Nor does he offer her any comfort. ”
Kinda like when that bastion of caring Teddy Kennedy once told a crowd of inner city people (many years ago) he “knew how they felt”
Exactly, littlejohn and JR. It is all about the “short term” these days. And, it is bad for the company, as well as the country, IMHO. There is no easy “fix” to this problem, again IMO.
Perhaps uncoupling stock options from overall CEO compensation would be of some benefit. I personally think there needs to be some reexamination of the scope of the fiduciary duty to stockholders, i.e., to change the focus from maximization of value in the short term to maximization of value in the longer (5 to 10 years, as an example) term. However, we need to recall the investments of pension funds, insurance companies, etc., which, IMO again, drives the maximization of short term results mantra.
Does anyone factor in the multi million dollar awards that juries are giving out like candy?
How many millions do the insurance companies rake in for every million they pay out? I’m sure the insurance companies are totally altruistic–just look at how your insurance agent dresses for his hard day of taking your money, avoiding your calls, and denying you benefits.
____________________________________________
The folks at Enron, in 2000 alone, the top five executives received payments of $282.7 million. The company completely collapsed
Dubya got his .8 Mill profit before it folded, though
______________________________________
And now the issue turns from health care into a generic argument against highly paid CEO’s.
Read the header.
____________________________________________
Well, how many of you continue to go watch baseball games? football games?
Actually, I relate pro football to corporate america. Totally exorbitant salary to take 4 1/2 hours doing 12 minutes of work.
_____________________________________________
Doctors back then didn’t neccisarily have to have a degree or any accreditation either.
Geesh, we’re not harking back to the days of Granny Arrowroot. At least keep it in the 19th century.
______________________________________
They are not overpaid. They are paid what the market will bear.”
With all the companies going titsup, I guess the market can’t bear it.
________________________________________
Capitalists, if you believe in capitaism, can make a fine living by paying workers what they earn and charging prices people can afford for products and services that are sold for what they’re worth.
If it takes government regulations to keep that delicate balance between investment, profits, and salaries, then government regulation is necessary.
We’ve seen, so many times in this nation’s history how greed has thrown that balance out of whack.
We all should have been appalled at recent hearings where it took Congressmen to suggest to financiers that maybe, perhaps, they ought to look into a borrower’s ability to pay back a loan before they lend the money!
Should there really be *regulations* to dictate that?! Well, apparently, yes.
Because as long as Wall Street can privatize profits and socialize losses, the Republic Party will do their bidding.
We saw it a hundred years ago as the Gilded Age turned to rust. A Republic Party president, Theodore Roosevelt *had* to introduce regulations and restrictions to all-out laizzes-fare capitalism, otherwise the American Experiment wouldn’t work.
What CONservatives never seem to realize is that unrestricted capitalism always works toward the detriment of society as a whole.
You can’t keep screwing the little people without them outnumbering you. And if they don’t have a voice via government, they’ll rise up and ruin you from the street.
The people who produce wealth have to be rewarded for their labor. That’s the only way capitalism works. Capitalists, however, think they can suck wealth away from the producers until they buy enough politicians to save their butts.
An economic system this strong cannot survive unless capitalists, producers, and customers all benefit from the equation. Right-wing capitalists don’t seem to understand that.
Those stock options are a joke, most of the time the options are seriously in the money at the time of the award. If they’re going to give stock options to the execs do it at that days listed price.
If the CEO wants to be an owner/operator of the corp. let him buy in just like the employee that’s actually doing the manufacturing/service work.
Used to be employees were considered a pillar of the corp. or company. Now they are viewed as disposable variable assets and just another cost of doing business. It all goes along with the Short term perspective that has corrupted the American business model.
“Please share with us your vast and infinite experience in running a company and know all the CEO’s that do in your coming up with the conclusion that:”
Actually, Price, I had a 30+ year career in business, most of it in a managerial positions (and some higher)where I met with CEO’s on a regular basis. I was privy to and part of the development of financial plans and P & L statements.
In most of my career, the projected budgets were based on my forecasts and my breakdown of manufacturing requirements.
Please share with us, Price, your experience in business and the financial statements that supported or contradicted the stockholder’s positions.
I know of what I speak, Price, but as usual, your approach is just more trolling to satisfy your ego.
“can make a fine living by paying workers what they earn and charging prices people can afford for products and services that are sold for what they’re worth.”
In general, no disagreement. However, the devil as always, is in the details. Please define:
“workers what they earn”
“prices people can afford”
“sold for what they’re worth”
“littlejohn” dances around the issue with:
“Please define:
“workers what they earn”
Seems pretty easy to determine. What’s the cost of producing a product. Think capitalisn’t can’t figure that out?
“prices people can afford”
Another slam-dunk. Unless you’re in a business where you’re providing a product or service essential to survival, what the people can afford should be self-evident.
Ah, but you’ve got a product or service (healthcare comes to mind) that people have no bargaining power or option to price-shop, then you’re in a business that dictates regulation. Deal with it.
“sold for what they’re worth”
Instead of price-gouging, for example?
For example, I’m perfectly willing to pay an oil company a profit for all they do to get a gallon of gasoline in my car. But Big Oil has decided they should be paid on a percentage of retail price. Which means their incentive is to raise the retail price.
Just like Halliburton’s cost-plus non-negotiated contracts with the George WMD Bush administration in Iraq. There is absolutely no incentive for Halliburton to cut costs because every extra dollar they spend results in more cost-plus commissions.
That’s not capitalism. That’s profiteering.
Well, lj, you were right about the devil. Chuckle…
Read an article the other day about lawsuits against the railroad for fixing prices by collusion. Wasn’t aware that like the Oil industry, the railroad had been winnowed down to an oligarchy. Oh, the perils of deregulation.
““workers what they earn”
Seems pretty easy to determine. What’s the cost of producing a product. Think capitalisn’t can’t figure that out?”
Yes they can. They pay whatever they have to fill the job.
“prices people can afford”
Another slam-dunk. Unless you’re in a business where you’re providing a product or service essential to survival, what the people can afford should be self-evident. ”
Really? WHich people? How much should they be willing to give up? What choices should they have to make? Simplistic answer to a complex question. Except for healthcare perhaps, the market freely decides what people can afford, by how they arrange their spending priorities. YEs, you are right. Simple. What people can afford is what they are willing to pay.
“For example, I’m perfectly willing to pay an oil company a profit for all they do to get a gallon of gasoline in my car. But Big Oil has decided they should be paid on a percentage of retail price. Which means their incentive is to raise the retail price.
Just like Halliburton’s cost-plus non-negotiated contracts with the George WMD Bush administration in Iraq. There is absolutely no incentive for Halliburton to cut costs because every extra dollar they spend results in more cost-plus commissions.
”
Oh, the big bad Bush spectre. Irrevelant to the discussion. So, you would not provide profits as a percentage of sales? Just how would you determine an acceptable profit? For any business?
Outta here for the night.
Peace.
Much of our “rising health care cost” is caused by cost shifting.
The population is getting older.
Older populations require more medical care.
The government does not reimburse healh care providers for the full cost of care.
That cost is then transfered to everyone else.
The government is CAUSING much of the current increase in price.
Liberals
Why do you hate Walmart so much?
Walmart gives very few executive perks.
Walmart’s home office is very modest.
Walmart treats its shareholders in a very fair manor.
Walmart also employs a large number of people, most of whom are very happy with their jobs.
But, as a rule, liberals hate Walmart.
So, when a company does what you want, you still hate that company —
Monkey
Your simplistic argument fails on this fact, alone:
Workers ARE capitalists!
A HUGE chunk of the ownership in every corporation is held by employees of that firm.
An even larger chunk of that stock is held by Union and corporate pension funds, and other retirement plans.
Profit is NOT a dirty word.
I have no problem with accountability, and with giving rights to the stockholders to hold the Board of Directors accountable.
Still, it is the COMPANY, not the politicians, that get to make compensation decisions.
You want to improve the healthcare delivery and cut medical bills by about a third? Remove the middlemen and their stockholders from the equasion. We’re in the mess we’re in because the insurance companies manipulated the system for maximum profit from our pockets. They’re destroying healthcare for most Americans in order to line their own pockets and we don’t need them. Go to a Medicare single-payer plan for everybody, and healthcare survives. Bend over for the insurance industry, and it doesn’t.
A HUGE chunk of the ownership in every corporation is held by employees of that firm. — econ 101
I’ve disproved this tired wingnut conundrum a thousand times. Yes, a whole bunch of people own a tiny amount of stock, and a few people own a whole bunch of stock. In 2001, the richest ten percent owned 85 percent of all stocks and mutual funds in the country.
http://sociology.ucsc.edu/whorulesamerica/power/wealth.html
That’s rather dated, but no doubt, even more lopsided now.
More people may have invested in stocks during the Bush administration, but that’s because of low interest rates for conventional savings. In the meantime, the rich have been getting richer, and getting richer at an increasing rate.
Econ 101 is correct in one aspect: A Huge chunk of corporate stock is owned by employees of u.s. corporations — the C.E.O.s and executives who are GIVEN stock options at set prices as part of their compensation packages. Regular people may get a few shares as part of their pension plans, if they are lucky.
The greatest source of wealth for regular people is their houses. Homeowner equity fell below 50 percent for the first time since the depression recently.
More ECON 101/bushanomics.
I’ve said for years that insurance (health, life, auto, etc.) is a racket. This isn’t something new, but has been going on for some 20 years.
Oh, and, Nathan? It’s good to know that you and I really can agree on something.
I don’t agree with it, I think Americans are over prescribed with medication.
Very true. But many times that is the fault of the patient, who insists s/he be given a prescription, even though the drug (usually an antibiotic) will do nothing. I know people who run themselves and their children to the doctor for every single case of the sniffles and believe they must be given a prescription for their trouble.
Have people been so brainwashed to believe that only an expensive and unneeded drug can save them?
“The fact that companies can make money is what drives the innovation in this country.”
No in this case it’s the greed that drives the forementioned people not a damn bit of innovation –
but then again your too dumb to know you’re being had ………
And look at the cost of lawsuits when those drugs cause all sorts of problems because they’ve been thrown out onto the market before enough research is done to make sure they’re safe…it’s ALL about profits with the drug companies.
Prohibit the drug companies from advertising and providing all sorts of perks to doctors for prescribing their meds, cut out the insurance industry middle man, make “non profit” hospitals truly non profit, quit paying healthcare CEOs those crazy salaries (and no, I don’t think the CEO of Via Christi deserves to make over $700,000 a year) and put caps on lawsuit recoverys…all that would go a long way to bringing down the price of health care.
When the nuns ran Saint Joseph and Saint Francis, the mission was alive and well…now it’s all about the almighty dollar.
Well here’s one thing wrong with Wal Mart —
http://video.msn.com/video.aspx?mkt=en-us&vid=c5b7960a-fa23-45ed-baaa-0faf410ac792&fg=rss&from=34
There isn’t a person in this country who is worth a multi-million dollar salary as the head of any company. It’s all about greed and screwing the consumers.
AMEN to that Mary!!
I remember not long ago, being rakedover the coals by a few here, because I said that the workers owned stock in their companies… or even owned their companies… I think it was a discussion about socialism… IIRC…
If you don’t like the way the health care system works, fine….simply heal yourself!
That will be a necessity if you take the profit motive out of it, just like all business collapses with out the profit motive driving it.
Doctors will not make the investment in their educations without the expectation of ample return. Equipment companies will not do R & D or take the liability risks without ample opportunity for a healthy profit.
One of the main reasons health care is so expensive now is because it is so regulated, so micro managed by the government, and because it is so litigious.
It works for other countries, it can work for us. The system needs to be overhauled so that it is affordable and accessable to everyone. It’s the obscene profits being made in the industry that is destroying healthcare, not advancing it.
“One of the main reasons health care is so expensive now is because it is so regulated, so micro managed by the government, and because it is so litigious.”
You don’t work in health care do you?
“You don’t work in health care do you?”
You damn better believe I do, and have for 40+ years! And I have seen it turn into one of the most screwed up, micro managed, paperwork burdened, defensively practiced, litigious situations I ever could have imagined. It costs the physician three incomes just to afford insurance. And for every person that touches a patient there are multiples of that person just to handle the paper. And much is a result of government requirements.
Hello morons, this is because we import third world labor, and make them work third world hours with no medical insurance, and no benefits, because they are illegal aleins.
Why is it so hare for those of you bemoaing the backwards trend in wages not to link it to illegal immigration and employers illegally hiring and illegal workplaces and work conditions?
The politicians and the ilelgal alien supporters that are talking about this are taqlking out both sides of their asses.
Big companies repeatedly inform the world that employee costs in America are high. The world hears but does not act. Big companies then outsource to other parts of the world. Those in this part of the world respond by wondering why jobs went elsewhere. A lot of talk on this mystery, year to year, and more and more jobs sent abroad. Costs, costs, and more costs. Health care costs are not the only reason why big companies seek assistance in other lands. Commerce breeds commerce, and so on. Everyone gets it. Everyone knows. And each year, toward December, those who live in this part of the world get told by big companies that, come January, co-pays will be higher. That’s often the good news. It’s often good news in this part of the world to be told that it’s going to be more expensive, but that the jobs are not going someplace else. Yes, you can still come in. Oh, go ahead. We’ll let you. Come on in for one more year. Then around March comes the presentation. They’re still looking to expand globally. It’s cheaper. You…well, you cost too much. Quit buying so much gas, or something.
Repeal the “right to work” laws and labor will take care of the problem through collective bargaining.
Ding ding ding ding!
We have a winner, folks.
J R is exactly right.
Jed
Listen carefully
Medicare is BROKE.
Medicare is shifting its own costs off on everyone else.
Also, Medicare is administered, for the most part, by PRIVATE companies on contract with Medicare.
And, guess what else?
A good 30% of the people on Medicare will soon decide, on their own, that they would RATHER have private insurance for the entire Medicare plan.
That number is above 20% already.
Medicare plus a Medigap plan provides the best coverage, for those who are sick and have claims.
However, for the relatively healthy, you can save quite a bit of premium by going with a “Medicare Advantage” plan
I have, generally, tried to get my clients to stay with standard Medicare, but many people are voting with their own money —
And they are voting AGAINST the government plans and going completely private!
Collective Bargaining has driven the economy down by forcing industry to look outside the country for labor so as to remain competitive.
Sarah
For starters, your “percentage distribution” analysis is flawed.
You can not expect young people, or even those under 45 or so, to be very serious about retirement and savings.
However, you are counting EVERYONE in your wealth distribution and income stats.
Furthermore, can you show me how it ever “hurts” the poor or the middle class when someone else becomes “rich”?
You can not build up the poor by tearing down the rich.
You can not help the weak by destroying the strong.
The “rich” pay a higher portion of total income tax revenues than ever before in history.
If you increase tax rates, you will simply discourage the “rich” from doing things that make more money.
When you raise taxes, you kill the economy.
The “rich” do not NEED income. They can invest in gold. They can invest in vacant land. They can invest overseas. They can invest in stamps or coins.
None of those things produce much taxable income.
None of those investments produce many jobs.
You want to hurt the rich.
Your “redistribution” plans do nothing at all to help the poor.
“Drug companies have a lot of lobbyists in D.C. to insure that they can keep on charging inflated prices while receiving lot of government cheese.”
I forget which legislator said it, but he claimed “you can’t swing a cat in Washington D.C. without hitting a drug company lobbyist.”
Duh! There might be a reason for that…
LR
I admit, up front, that I make as many typos here as anyone.
However, if you are going to call people stupid, I think that the particular post that calls that person “dumb” or “stupid” should be near perfect, don’t you?
—–
“LR
Posted March 31, 2008 at 6:42 pm | Permalink
“The fact that companies can make money is what drives the innovation in this country.”
No in this case it’s the greed that drives the forementioned people not a damn bit of innovation –
but then again your too dumb to know you’re being had ………
”
—-
“Your” is a possessive pronoun.
“You Are” in contraction form, is “you’re”
Anyway, I made a mistake, myself, with this post.
But I am not calling anybody “stupid” so it is ok.
Oh I don’t know “boxlock” James.
Let’s repeal the “right to work” laws on ALL levels and give it a spin.
YOU don’t have to play. Seeing as how you are a ward of the state?
And Paul F Rosell aka “econ” is good with what the greedy rich can do.
How’s this?
They can cower in fear of ever growing numbers of ticked off American working folk.
The “rich” pay a higher portion of total income tax revenues than ever before in history.
That’s true, but extremely misleading.
They pay so much income tax because they have so much income.
Duh.
In fact, what is true is that someone making 50,000 pays about the same percentage of his-her income in all taxes (not just income taxes) as someone making 500,000.
The poor (making less than 18,000) actually pay a higher percentage of their income (because it so low) on all taxes (like sales taxes for food) than the rich pay on their supposedly sky-high income taxes.
Income taxes haven’t been this low on big earners since the depression, and just as expected, the top 10, 1 and .01 percent control the same amount of wealth now than they did in 1929 after many decades of wealth equality.
“Workers ARE capitalists!
“A HUGE chunk of the ownership in every corporation is held by employees of that firm.”
Boy do Republicans want you to believe this obscene LIE. They have based their entire political future on people being dumb enough to buy this awful crap (to put it nicely). Unfortunately, they have lured many people into this Alice in Wonderland thinking.
Workers don’t make 200% more than the average worker. I will await a later time to explode this complete nonsense that the Pauliecon is peddling.
Paul, When you were in jail for endangering children to save the unborn, do you recall receiving visits from Federal probation officers, who told you about the Martyr’s Mirror? Curious minds would like to know. Those records are public, you know?
J R damn sure wants to know!
LR
“LR
Posted March 31, 2008 at 6:51 pm | Permalink
Well here’s one thing wrong with Wal Mart —
http://video.msn.com/video.aspx?mkt=en-us&vid=c5b7960a-fa23-45ed-baaa-0faf410ac792&fg=rss&from=34”
—
A tear jerker of a story, to be sure.
However, before you get all fired up, this is called “subrogation” or “coordination of benefits” and Medicaid and Medicare do it all the time.
“Coordination of benefits” is a division of Medicare. I carry the phone number with me because I need it all the time.
Medicare will NOT pay claims resulting from a car accident, until Medicare is satisfied that no automobile insurance benefits are available.
Also, it is a headache when someone retires at say, age 70, to get Medicare to understand that they are now PRIMARY instead of SECONDARY in responsibility.
The reporters, in this story, are willfully ignorant of insurance claims processing.
The fact is, Walmart’s insurance plan may well have done this woman a FAVOR by paying her claims in the first place, if the auto insurance of the other driver, or this woman’s own insurance, actually paid, as well. Walmart made sure the bills were paid, protected her credit, to a point, and THEN “subrogated” or “coordinated” —
Medicare might not have EVER paid, in the first place!
You think the government will “solve” this problem? Dial 1-800-999-1118.
That is the number I have to call, when Medicare refuses to pay such claims.
You can also go to this website:
http://www.cms.hhs.gov/COBGeneralInformation/
“Contact the COB Contractor to:
Report employment changes, or any other insurance coverage information.
Report a liability, auto/no-fault, or workers compensation case.
Ask general Medicare Secondary Payer (MSP) questions/ concerns.
Ask questions regarding Medicare Secondary Development (MSP) letters and questionnaires.”
—-
Please notice a few things here.
You are asked to talk to a “COB Contractor” with the above issues.
That means you are NOT talking to a government employee. This has been the case under SEVERAL different administrations, for several years.
Companies bid on contracts to service Medicare and Medicaid accounts for CMS, the Center for Medicare and Medicaid services.
Also notice this:
“The Coordination of Benefits (COB) Contractor consolidates the activities that support the collection, management, and reporting of other insurance coverage for Medicare beneficiaries. The purposes of the COB program are to identify the health benefits available to a Medicare beneficiary and to coordinate the payment process to prevent mistaken payment of Medicare benefits. The COB Contractor does not process claims, nor does it handle any mistaken payment recoveries or claims specific inquiries. The Medicare intermediaries and carriers are responsible for processing claims submitted for primary or secondary payment.”
—
Obviously there IS a department, in Medicare, responsible for lawsuits and recovery, when someone does receive insurance compensation for an injury that Medicare has previously paid for.
Nathan
Posted March 31, 2008 at 1:15 pm | Permalink
Doug,
You would rather see us in the dark ages of medicine as long as no one is making any money at it.
oh
you mean a system where a large number of sick people can’t go for medical care because they can’t afford it ??
Steve
You are a hateful liar.
I never endangered children.
And, I never even spoke to a “probation officer” as I was NEVER CHARGED WITH A CRIME!
The fact is, Walmart’s insurance plan may well have done this woman a FAVOR by paying her claims in the first place,
yeah
it’s always a favor when an insurance company pays for care.
“I was NEVER CHARGED WITH A CRIME!”
Then…
Why do you BRAG about your appearance before a judge?
I could go find it.
Littlejohn,
Blue Cross ran as a non-profit in exchange for a tax break. As a result they provided low cost health insurance. Eventually they decided they wanted to go for-profit so they gave up their tax break and their prices rose.
http://www.slate.com/id/2161736/
Funny how all the Christian conservatives on this board have no problem with people rotting and dying from disease and sickness.
The main liar, hateful or otherwise around here, is you, Paul.
Like J R I am pretty sure you must have been accused of a crime, based on what you’ve said here. But, I also recognize that it is possible, that all of your typed statements here, are complete falsehoods. Wouldn’t surprise me much, actually…
something must be wrong 1 out of every 8 people in Michigan are on foodstamps 1 out of every 10 people in Ohio are on foodstamps.
Nathan
Posted March 31, 2008 at 1:52 pm | Permalink
WS Clark,
Please share with us your vast and infinite experience in running a company and know all the CEO’s that do in your coming up with the conclusion that:
“Actually, most CEO’s sole focus is the value of the stock on a short-term basis.”
then they get fired with a huge compensation package
or
they retire with a huge compensation package.
LOL to you.
always a good ceo like ken lay to screw the little people.
And Paul F Rosell plumbs a new low.
A Walmart worker horribly injured.
A gold star mom whose son was killed in Iraq.
A woman whose injuries cause her to re-live the loss of her son in Iraq every single day!
And what does Paul F Rosell say?
“The fact is, Walmart’s insurance plan may well have done this woman a FAVOR ”
You are beyond the lowest of the low paul. You sicken me. You embarras me that I share a country with a despicable creep like you.
“Nathan
Posted March 31, 2008 at 1:15 pm | Permalink
Doug,
You would rather see us in the dark ages of medicine as long as no one is making any money at it.”
Funny how so many other countries are able to provide low cost, universal health care to their people and the doctors have quite a good living. If it hasn’t occurred to you non-profit doesn’t mean free. The Dark Ages is when religion ran society, your utopia.
The Feds, as if Paul didn’t know this, rely upon Federal Probation officers to do a lot of the pre-trial investigation work. If he was ever charged with a Federal crime – which I believe he was, he was seen by a Federal P.O. I know this process for a fact, so don’t try to lie your way out of this question, OK?
JR,
Paul has shown time and time again how heartless and immoral he is. Should it come to any surprise that he doesn’t give a sh!t about some woman being crippled and her son dying in Iraq? This is the same guy who happily threw children under car tires and cheered when bombs were dropped on people’s homes in Iraq.
JR
Judges don’t just handle crimes.
Judges handle lots of things that are not crimes.
I was in Judge Kelly’s courtroom due to a CIVIL LAWSUIT!
I can take any of you folks to court, any time I want to, for telling lies.
Actually, anyone can take anyone else to court, at anytime.
It is WINNING in court that is difficult.
And, I am a PROVEN winner in Court.
Yes, I am a public figure, even now.
Therefore, I would have to prove that you knew it was not true, at the time that you said it, and that you said it anyway, in order to win a lawsuit against you for slander or libel.
I have told all of you the truth several times.
You do know the truth.
I was not charged with a crime, I was found in CIVIL (not criminal) contempt of court.
I won an appeal, in the 10th Circuit, asking for a new hearing. I won my appeal largely because of judicial misconduct by Judge Kelly.
The new Judge, in Wichita, told me not to bother showing up in court, and dismissed the lawsuit against me.
And, Tiller’s attorney wrote a letter to the court saying that I had not been charged with any crime.
Now, you know the truth, for 100th time.
Some day, when the kids are grown and I have more time on my hands, I might like to take a few of YOU to court.
Right now?
Proving you wrong, over and over again, and collecting all of your documented libels and slanders — is enough.
Besides, I can’t get blood out of a turnip.
Taking any of you to court would be purely punitive in nature.
I doubt you would have enough money to make it worth my time.
However, IF I took you to court and even if I won, that would NOT make you a criminal.
There would only be a CIVIL judgement against you, with no criminal record from that civil judgement.
In my case?
There isn’t even a civil judgement.
Now, do you understand?
By the way, Mayor Bob Knight appointed me to the Wichita Traffic Commission, after this particular even made national news.
My fellow traffic commissioners unanimously voted to make me President of that City of Wichita advisory board. Why would they do that, Democrats and Republicans alike?
I am building my case against you.
Some day, when I am bored, you might hear more from me.
But don’t worry, if and when I take you to court, it will not be for a crime. At least not where this issue is concerned.
And, unlike Tiller in his lawsuit against me —
I will WIN my lawsuit against YOU!
Annie
Michigan is run by Democrats.
Ohio to a lesser degree.
How many of you liberals drive a car made in Detroit?
(I do!)
Yeah Paul, you have a hat that says in big blue letters, “WINNER”. Just so you can show everyone how much of a winner you are. I saw you last week bragging to the teenager working at Quiktrip how much of an important guy you are with big important responsibilities but for some reason you spend a lot of time on the internet trying to convince other people who don’t care how important you are.
Sounds like somebody needs his juice box.
“Some day, when I am bored, you might hear more from me.”
Like when I ran you out of my yard with a water hose?
“I can take any of you folks to court, any time I want to, for telling lies.”
Go for it, Rossell, show me where I have lied.
I want to hear this – show me.
Ooooh, does that mean I can sue Paul for calling me a Communist sympathizer?
Please, Paul, take mercy on me…
You are such a pathetic JOKE, and you know it.
Methinks you are a lot like Regular, and when pushed into a corner, you start making threats about law suits, which in your case, are just as bogus as those theatened by the James McCluer.
Loser.
Doug
I do not believe that I have even been in a quick trip for the last couple of weeks.
Maybe once, with my daughter.
What location?
Liar!
Hey Paul F Rosell?
I don’t care. Bring it.
You bag on a severely injured woman who lost a son in Iraq.
You are the most despicable thing I have yet to encounter.
WS
sorry, I should have been more specific.
I of course meant any of the folks who continue to libel me, on this Blog.
You and I have our disagreements, to be sure, but I think you are far more honorable than Steve Davis or JR.
If the shoe fits, wear it.
Those who have made false accusations know who they are.
One of the main reasons health care is so expensive now is because it is so regulated, so micro managed by the government, and because it is so litigious.
your health care costs are high because edwards sued a couple of doctors.
or something like that…
what was the story last week.
a doctor removed the healthy kidney and left the wrong one in the guys body.
oops sorry have a great life buddy.
or the doctor who cut the wrong leg off even though the bad leg had a big ol’ magic marker X on it.
oops sorry somebody get him a wheelchair.
look at the bright side, hey he doesn’t have to buy shoes anymore.
you know, the doctor actually saved him some money in the long run. get it “long run” a joke every repiblican can enjoy… lol, hahaha.
like the people who back bush up on his horrible decisions, some of you cheer walmart for ruining american business and then dropping them and buying from china.
it’s crazy how you repukes justify big business while living in your trailer parks and tiny little apartments.
you suck.
Good one Paul, as would be most evident to the rest of the world I was telling a joke. But if you thought I was serious and failed to even mention the “WINNER” hat then does that mean you are admitting to actually owning one?
Common sense Paul, give it a try.
Doug
You TOO are a public figure.
What I said about YOU was an opinion. That opinion is not actionable unless you can absolutely prove that I knew it was not true, when I said it.
You, on the other hand, have been reckless, hateful, malicious and very liable.
You did NOT present an opinion. You stated falsehoods that can be proven false.
JR
Back to the Walmart issue.
Why is Walmart “evil” and the government “good” when Walmart and Medicare would have handled this even in exactly the same way?
Paul, the reason I wouldn’t sue you is because what you say is unimportant. Can you honestly believe that you would be capable of harming me with words? Perhaps that’s why I’m not throwing a childish temper tantrum like you often do.
PS,
Get me a copy of that hat, I wanna be a winner just like you.
Paul F Rosell is for Walmart suing a grievously injured woman to secure her settlement for Walmart.
I think his insurance customers need to know that.
Before he sell them policies that will be denied when benefits are demanded.
This is what the State of Kansas, through the SRS, will do if they think you got some Medicaid benefits you did not deserve:
http://www.srskansas.org/ISD/ees/estate_recovery.htm
Show me where Walmart ever went after a DEAD person.
Your government goes after dead people ALL THE TIME to recover benefits that should not have been paid.
Well Paul, Wal-mart does have credit services and if a person dies while owing a debt they’ll still demand payment.
Doug
I have failed many times.
“Failure is an event, not a person” — kind of corny but I always liked that one.
I like to argue. If I come off hateful or rude or malicious, it is not my intent. I am simply passionate about what I believe. I do try not to get personal. I try to win hearts and minds. Most of the people who come to this Blog never post anything. I write with those people in mind.
Like I have told JR, if I saw you on the side of the road, and you needed help, I would do what I could.
That does not mean that I have to take any abuse off of anyone.
Nor should you.
Is Kansas “evil” just like you think Walmart is “evil”??
—–
“ESTATE RECOVERY PROGRAM
October 2005
The Estate Recovery Program recovers medical care costs from the estates of certain deceased Medicaid consumers. The Estate Recovery Unit (ERU) has recouped approximately $42 million from 19,000 cases since the start of the program.
http://www.srskansas.org/ISD/ees/estate_recovery.htm
Do me a favor Paul F Rosell
If you have road trouble?
Stand in the road.
Doug
Point taken on the credit card issue.
However, does Walmart go after the estates of people who die, for HEALTHCARE COSTS?
You know, like Medicare and Medicaid both do?
“J R”=Coward
Paul, the estate recovery program doesn’t take funds from people who would suffer undue financial hardships. However this is a program that Republicans like since it was the Republicans that changed the bankruptcy protection laws that made the government work as debt collectors.
You got what you voted for.
“Anti” = JM = Regular. And I have supported your call for a meetup James.
“J R”=Coward+irresponsible parent+horrible human
remember J R- Obama hates your son and Bush is ruining your lawn as we speak….
Paul thinks I am dishonorable, I am so embarrassed. I think I should go hide before he sues me.
Narcissistic jerk* = Paul F. Rossell. Bring it on, loser.
*http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/narcissistic-personality-disorder/DS00652
Doug
NONSENSE!
The Medicaid Estate Recovery rules were mandated by the Federal Government.
Kansas had to comply with these rules or come up with something better.
I believe that the Medicaid Estate Recovery laws have very heavy, bipartisan support, both in Congress and in Topeka.
Also, the Medicare Recovery rules have very broad support.
Why is it ok when the government does it, and not ok when a private insurance company does the SAME thing?
Also, If this woman just won a lawsuit for “actual” damages, shouldnt that money pay for said “damages” ????
Medicare and Medicaid would have handled this exactly the same way as Walmart!
http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/narcissistic-personality-disorder/DS00652/DSECTION=2
further reading on the Paulster…
Oh…and J R, Bush just let some air out of your tires + anything else that is wrong with your life and or you don’t want to take responsibility for..Bush did it..or anything that starts with an R…..Rabbits?
Well…
Let’s leave it at this.
I will anyway.
Paul F Rosell is supported in his arguments by James McCluer.
The former is a discharged vet kicking to the curb a woman who lost a son in Iraq.
The latter is….well we are left to guess.
CLEARLY he is on the government dole. He has admitted as much.
I’m not terribly comfortable arguing with a “veteran” of unknown and lied about service who admits he cannot toilet on his own.
Steve
I am certainly no angel, but — you are a bit off the mark.
Want to come help me put another “Mickey Button” in my grand daughter’s stomach?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vX-VZT-Px8g
I am watching my 5 year old Grandchild while my daughter is away on business.
The hallmark of a narcissist is a selfish personality that justifies anything to get what he or she wants.
Such people crave attention.
Such people rarely apologize.
I apologize to the entire Blog for anything that I have done to make any of you think I was a Narcissist!
(Thus proving that I am not such)
Now I have to do something much more important. Not sure she needs a new button but the old one is leaking.
Here’s the story and the Senate vote on the bankruptcy reform law the credit card companies ordered the Republican party to vote for:
http://www.commondreams.org/headlines05/0312-03.htm
Another example of free market advocates wanting the government to intervene in the market.
As for the recovery program it looks pretty good. Instead of doing the Republican thing of ditching a person when they can no longer afford services the government fronts the money so the person continues to receive care. However, since the Republicans didn’t want universal health care the dead have to pay back what they owe. Paul, if you don’t like the program then perhaps you ought to vote Democratic so we can advance to universal health care and no longer need the recovery program.
You still get what you vote for.
Paul,
Apologies, if I am off the mark. But your arrogance I find over the top. No one here knows anyone else enough to make any kind of diagnosis. I object to when MonkeyHawk says Nathan is suffering from PTSD. We lack the data to have any idea about that.
You have to admit, though, you have a tendency toward being insufferable at times.
I am glad you can care for your grandchildren. That alone convinces that there is hope for you.
Good night.
The grand daughter is a lie designed to make the monster paul seem slightly human.
I don’t buy it. Why should anyone?
Good night.
Pall,
Listen carefully; insurance companies are anything but broke because they do everything they can not to live up to their promises. Their contracts are full of weasel words in 2pt type printed in light grey ink in ancient Babylonian legalese, and if that doesn’t suffice they have rooms full of people hunting for any possible way to deny a claim, including dragging their heels to deny treatment until the insured dies. You know that for a fact- you sell the sh*t!
Jed
You have some issues that should be brought up with someone other than a politician.
Nothing the government does can address those issues.
Steven, yes, I admit it. I am insufferable at times. (Takes one to know one, perhaps?)
Anyway, Steven, apology accepted.
By the way, FYI on the WALMART health insurance issue?
I think the patient/client might now have a case against her ATTORNEY!:
http://www.njelderlaw.com/special_needs_trust.asp
I am not an attorney, myself, but I am VERY familiar with SNT’s or Special Needs Trusts.
I think the attorney, in this case, made a horrible error.
I think the attorney could have set up a such a trust, perhaps even with the consent of the State.
The patient/client would NEVER take “constructive receipt” of said funds. They would go straight to the trust. The check would be made out to the trust. The Irrevocable Trust would have its own tax ID number.
Then, I think that the funds, in said trust, would not be available to ANY creditors at all, public or private.
As I said, the patient/client probably has another tort, against her attorney.
In her case, someone in her family would perhaps have to bring suit, on her behalf.
And Kate is doing fine.
Balloon just needed more air.
Maybe it leaks air, which causes it to leak liquid?
Time will tell.
Will check again in the morning.
Good night all.
In case the trust link will not come up for you:
“According to a recent issue of Lawyers Weekly U.S.A., personal injury lawyers for Plaintiffs are being sued for malpractice by clients who are losing Medicaid because the recovery was not placed into a Supplemental Needs Trust. This trend indicates that personal injury attorneys do not complete their role as advocates upon obtaining a successful judgment or settlement. If they represent a disabled individual, they should recommend a Trust for the receipt of litigation proceeds.”
Econ said: “I do try not to get personal.”
ROFLMAO!!! :roll:
Chas
I do try.
And I do fail.
Did I not admit as much?
But at least I do try.
Dang I really did mean to go to sleep, but I forgot to respond to something, and I probably won’t be able to sleep, OCD that I am, until I post it:
Doug said;
“As for the recovery program it looks pretty good. Instead of doing the Republican thing of ditching a person when they can no longer afford services the government fronts the money so the person continues to receive care.”
—–
Doug, and fellow Bloggers, isnt this EXACTLY what Walmart did? Walmart “fronts” the money, until the court judgement came through!
Now it is, truly, Goodnight!
It might be a very busy morning!
Econ, I just love it! You are a one man army. Look how many upset DemLibs you can infuriate at one time. They are slobbering all over themselves with hate and are too stupid to realize you are playing them like a puppet. I enjoy the show.
Boxlock…what is it that you do in the healthcare field?
Boxlock–
Dude, you are easily entertained.
Lucky for you, grass is growing again. Now you can watch it . . .
Jumping in a bit late, here on the Wal Mart subrogation claim discussed yesterday.
First, as may have be already said, all (or almost all, but all in my experience) medical, etc., insurance plans have subrogation provisions. BTW, this also includes Workers’ Comp at the state level and U.S. Government programs, such as Medicare, as well as the situation where members of the uniformed services are injured due to third party negligence and there is a recovery against the negligent person. While I think Wal Mart could well have waived its subrogation rights, had it been approached to do so prior to the recovery, it didn’t need to do so.
Second, on Special Needs Trusts; there would be a problem there, Econ, IMO, concerning the case under discussion. While SNTs are, when properly drafted and put into effect, a good way to avoid disqualification for receipt of future benefits under Medicaid, etc., there is an issue concerning the effect of establishing same where, as here, there is an existing creditor at the time the trust is established. While Econ argues that the SNT needed to be established prior to any award being received, who has the legal right to establish the same as to the award? Generally, a SNT is set up by a third party (parents, etc.) and funded by them; here, however, the injured party is the one entitled to the benefits, and while a fiduciary appointed by the court (a Conservator under Kansas law) might be the recipient of such award on behalf of the injured party, I think that for all practical purposes, such fiduciary is an agent for the injured party. As such, the action of the fiduciary in establishing a SNT is the action of the injured party herself, and would then possibly run afoul of the Statute of Frauds, which in general makes trusts established by a person ineffective against creditors of that person. This is without the benefit of any research, but I believe there would be a large legal issue involved if a special needs trust had been established.
FWIW.
Econ, the above is to me the distinction between loss of future Medicaid benefits because a SNT was not established and the amount spent down, and the situation where there is an entity with subrogation rights, against whom establishing such a trust might be ineffective due to the Statute of Frauds.
Last comment for now on this. The link that Econ posted to the New Jersey Elder Law site contains a discussion about negotiation and compromise of any Medicare/Medicaid lien by the Trustee, and the requirement of payback from any remaining funds in the trust at the death of the person for whom the trust is established. It should be noted that this payback provision is only effective against Medicare and Medicaid, as it is part of the federal law cited within the linked article. Such would have no application against a private creditor, absent a state or federal statute to the contrary.
VT
Understood.
However, the attorney in this case should certainly have discussed this issue with Walmart, and with his client.
Negotiations with Walmart should have taken place, prior to settlement.
The attorney is supposed to work for the best interest of the client.
In this case, the attorney was working for Walmart, it seems, rather than working for injured party.
Furthermore, subrogation claims only take affect upon the RECEIPT of funds.
I agree with your take on the “statute of frauds” — however, I also think that, if the attorney did not inform the injured party/client in this case about the subrogation problem, that attorney was highly negligent.
You, yourself, have stated that Walmart might well have “waived” subrogation, legally.
As I noted with SNT trusts, but maybe did not explain: When a judgement for malpractice or any other liability is paid out to a person who has already been on Medicaid, the litigating attorney, in that case, is duty bound to negotiate with the state, as far as an SNT is concerned.
In this Walmart case, the attorney could easily say:
“Look, Walmart, I work on contigency, so I will get paid if I win. However, I have a duty to represent my client. My client is not well served in this case, if you decide to “subrogate” her award. Said award or judgement has not been made yet. We might not win our case. Are you willing to settle for a fixed, lesser amount? If not, I will not proceed with this case and you will see nothing at all”
Don’t you agree?
Econ, I do in general, with the added observation that the attorney would offer to protect Wal Mart’s interests, and, of course, receive a fee therefor taken from Wal Mart’s subrogation share.
It is the duty of plaintiff’s counsel IMO to inform the client of the various liens, subrogation rights, etc., of various insurors, government agencies, and, if appropriate, to negotiate with the holders of such rights on behalf of the client.
BTW, I think you may have left out “if we don’t win our case” at the end of “see nothing at all”, because the attorney cannot abrogate the rights of Wal Mart by unilaterally refusing to recognize the same if Wal Mart doesn’t agree to compromise its claim.
Here’s another reason Paul likes Wal-mart, they have the same opinion about soldiers returning home:
http://money.cnn.com/news/newsfeeds/articles/djf500/200803311805DOWJONESDJONLINE000786_FORTUNE5.htm
A returning soldier might have health care issues and Wal-mart doesn’t want to be left having to deal with that. Wal-mart prefers to stick it to the taxpayers.
Irrespective of the reason therefor, Doug, it appears the feds feel they have a good case, as the feds generally don’t bring an action unless they are fairly sure they’ll win. It would be interesting to know the extent of any pre-filing contacts and any negotiations.
Pall,
“You have some issues that should be brought up with someone other than a politician.”
I tried, but my attorney told me that insurance companies have no morals and unlimited funds to defend against lawsuits and thus are nearly impossible to win and collect judgements against.
yes VT
You read my mind.
Jed
My family has, before, on more than one occassion.
Sorry that you were not so fortunate, but it is not the fault of an entire industry or profession.
My labored point, through all of this, is that government plans do not guarantee payment of claims.
Also, after the governmen DOES pay a claim, you have no guarantee that the government will not want its money back, at some future date.
Doug
Store employment decisions are local, and not corporate level.
I am guessing the matter you posted will be resolved rather quickly.
Some good news for the moral majority (and bad news for Paul), Wal-mart dropped it’s suit against Deborah Shank.
http://money.cnn.com/news/newsfeeds/articles/djf500/200804011703DOWJONESDJONLINE000717_FORTUNE5.htm
This is a positive win for the progressives who think health care is a human right, not a privilege for the wealthy.
Doug
For Heaven’s sake, when did I ever wish anything bad to happen to this poor woman?
I only made the point that Medicare and Medicaid would treat her EXACTLY the same way, unless her attorney had handled this better.
I still say that the attorney screwed up.
Good thing that Walmart backed down.
Otherwise, the attorney would be in trouble.
It’s great that Walmart was forced to back down.
Maybe MSNBC and Keith Olberman ARE still good for something.
But the damage is done. I wonder how many customers this latest will cost them?
I have not bought anything from Walmart in years.
JR
I guarantee you that whoever you have done business with, in the past or currently, every large employer has done the same thing, in some manor or form.
I also guarantee you that your GOVERNMENT does the same thing, and will do the same thing, no matter who gets elected.
You simply do not understand the rules.
Walmart is not a stupid company.
Walmart backed down due to bad publicity.
However, what do we now have?
A large judgement that will not be used to pay mediccal bills already charged to an insurance company.
This will cause the rates or premiums, with that company, to rise.
And, if this woman dies, next week or next year, she gets leave a large inheritence to her kids, perhaps?
How is that fair?
I mean, you have complained about Republicans wanting to eliminated the Estate Tax.
How is it fair to stick other people with the entire amount of these claims, and let the injured party pocket AUTO INSURANCE proceeds that are supposed to pay for medical bills?
At least in the case of the “Special Needs Trust” the taxpayers are reimbursed, at death, for public benefits.
At least in my observation that the attorney screwed up, in this case, I offered that the attorney should and could have negotiated with Walmart, prior to the judgement or verdict or settlement.
You just want to “stick it to the man” and then you care nothing about the consequences.
Yes, all of us should do what is best for ourselves and our families, within the rules.
Yes, every attorney should do what is best for his or her client, as should ever other advisor.
However, we must all work within the rules.
This attorney screwed up, then went to the press to cover his own tail.
Paul, you don’t want universal health care and you don’t want health care covered by employers. It appears you either don’t want health care coverage for anyone or you want it provided absolutely free. Can’t have it both ways bub. Other countries, including poor ones like Cuba, manage to provide health care to everyone. President Truman suggested universal health care in the 40s to reward people for their service and sacrifice in the war but some people said it was a Communist plot. Now we bear the fruits of high health care and lack of coverage while other countries have advanced (and Communism hasn’t taken over).
Reap what you sow. People like you have stood in the way of progress for so many years.
Paulie sells insurance.
He is protecting his claim denying turf.
JR
No matter who gets elected, I will STILL sell insurance.
Those of you who think the government can or will pay for all of your health care needs are dreaming.
There will always be gaps.
There will aways be problems with government plans that the public will want to insure themselves against.
Again, you do not understand the system, and you do not understand the fact that NOBODY running for office today agrees with you on this issue.
Nobody is talking about eliminating “subrogation” and nobody is talking about eliminating health care coverage from auto insurance.
Why should the taxpayers pay for the damage caused by drunk drivers? That damage should be paid for by the drunks and those who insure the drunks.
And, the government will go after such auto insurance settlements no matter who gets elected.
Doug
We do not have a “lack of coverage” — everyone will get emergency care, when needed.
The poor have several programs available to them.
The vast majority DO have health insurance. Why destroy what is already in place?
Even Hillary and Obama understand that many people who SHOULD buy their own insurance are irresposible and refuse to buy any insurance for themselves or their family.
The irresponsible will be surprised, when they see MANDATED premiums for inferior coverage.
There is no way in the world that any program for the uninsured, today, will be better than existing Medicare.
And, the liability you face, with ONLY Medicare, can be huge.
Pall,
“No matter who gets elected, I will STILL sell insurance.”
No doubt, Mr. Barnum, but as more and more of your customers discover that their policies are worthless in a real pinch, you’ll be selling fewer of them.
Jed
You are speaking based on WHAT evidence?
Do you have any idea what percentage of claims are rejected by Medicare?
Do you have any idea what percentage of claims are rejected by Medicaid?
Do you realize that Medicare is the “gate keeper” on Medigap or Medicare Supplement insurance?
In most cases, the Medicare contractor approves or denies the Medicare claim, and then sends an electronic report to the private, Medigap insurance plan. That plan has no choice. It can not deny any Medicare approved charge.
Again, you do not know what you are talking about.
Pall,
I’m speaking on the basis of 63 yrs experience; my own and tht of friends. Among them was a woman whose employer was told by the insurance carrier to fire her upon her diagnosis with MS, or face an increase in the premiums they were negotiating at the time. When an insurance company does that, it is perpetrating a fraud on every one of its insured, who were promised security in the event of just such major illness.
“We do not have a “lack of coverage” — everyone will get emergency care, when needed.”
That only applys to emergency care…and you still have to pay for it and no one can afford it unless they’re independantly wealthy. Do you think if my cancer comes back, I can just waltz into the ER and demand that they give me treatment? You’re the one who doesn’t know what you’re talking about, Econ. Health care is unaffordable unless one has private or government subsidized health insurance…and too many people can’t get it or can’t afford it. It’s not that they don’t want it.
I can’t any private insurer to pick me up if my husband loses his job and we lose our benefits….if they would pick me up, the premiums would be unaffordable unless the policy had a rider stating that it won’t treat my cancer if it comes back.
I sat in my oncologists office and saw what some cancer patients went through who had to quit working because they were sick and as a result, lost their benefits. Oh sure, you can get Cobra for a limited time and the premiums are so outrageous that they couldn’t afford them. No one should be put in that situation in a country like ours. It’s not right.
Never say never…it could happen to anyone.
Mary and Jed
Insurance companies do not make profits above or outside the norm of most other businesses.
Health insurance is expensive, because HEALTH CARE IS EXPENSIVE!
Also, I know many people of vary middle-class means who do buy their own insurance. They simply go with a very high deductable and pay for most smaller charges out of their own pockets.
Health Savings accounts are a great deal. That is what I do. I have to pay everything under $5,000.00 per year out of my own pocket or out of my HSA, which I, alone, contribute to.
Now, in the case of those who get sick and have to quit their jobs?
Go on Social Security Disability first. After about 18 months, most people qualify for Medicare, regargless of age, if disabled and still drawing SSDI.
Again, we have many different options for people in bad situations.
I guarantee you that if you provide a program with out “Estate Recovery” like Medicaid, you are going to make a bunch of people really mad.
I guarantee you that if you come up with a program that is better than current Medicare, a bunch of retired people are going to be really mad.
We will NOT go to a “single payer” plan that eliminates the VA, Medicare, Medicaid, corporoate and Union plans.
What ever we come up with will be limited, and will cost a premium.
Again I remind you:
The purpose of health insurance is to protect your estate!
Why is it “fair” for the government to come up with health insurance plans, for those who are not poor — unless those people are ALSO required to pay back the government, out of their estates, when they die?
How is it fair to charge the Medicare beneficiary roughly $100 a month (higher based on income) and not charge the currently “uninsured” anything?
And, dont forget, Medicare has huge gaps in coverage.
How would it be fair to provide low cost coverage to those who are currently, willfully, uninsured — especially if you give them a policy which is even better than Medicare?
I can see room for reform.
Destroying the current system is not part of the solution.
Actually, John McCain does make some sense in this area.
With the highly mobile society we have today, it is hard to use the “PPO” concept to hold down costs.
Also, Insurance works with the “theory of large numbers” and states like Kansas, frankly, are not large enough to provide us with the best rates and the best competition.
I hate to admit it, but McCain’s idea for a stronger Federal role in health insurance regulation might be needed.
Heck, I could not have my current HSA plan, without a Federal mandate that forced Kansas to accept the HSA concept!
Again, health insurance is expensive because health care is expensive.
Pall,
“Insurance companies do not make profits above or outside the norm of most other businesses.”
Bullsh*t! Despite several high-dollar disasters, the insurance industry has been raking in profits that would embarass the mafia, even after Katrina!
“Now, in the case of those who get sick and have to quit their jobs?
Go on Social Security Disability first.”
Gee, isn’t that what we paid all those thousands of dollars in premiums for? No, that would only be paid for by an honest insurer.
“Why is it “fair” for the government to come up with health insurance plans, for those who are not poor ”
I know it isn’t fair to provide a service for free when you want to charge an arm and a leg for it, but it also isn’t fair when an insurer cancels a family’s policy when a member suffers from an “expensive” illness, and tells them to go on Medicare, like you just did!
“Destroying the current system is not part of the solution.”
Why not? Your current system got us in this mess and you have no desire to clean it up until your customers are cleaned out. After which you don’t give a damn what they do! Something about omelets and eggs….?
“
I have posted so many times about how we can bring down the cost of healthcare..the problem is too much money is being made by all the middle men and they spend big bucks on lobbyists to make sure things don’t change. The American healthcare consumer is getting screwed. No one should have to go bankrupt just to get healthcare..that way of thinking is just screwed up.
Every American should have access to affordable healthcare. There should be nothing impossible about making that happen. People, not profits, need protection.
Mary,
What we need to do is to insure that every patient gets the same high quality of healthcare as everyone else. That way the rich and powerful will see to it that the level is kept high, since it’s their level too. That requires a single-provider for all. If we allow a different standard for the wealthy, it will guarantee a permanent class discrimination at all levels of society. Need I mention that our nation was founded on the elimination of ruling classes?
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