Here’s another cost of the war in Iraq: The Bush administration’s bullying of our allies and their diplomats created lasting “bitterness†and “deep mistrust,†according to a new book by Heraldo Munoz, Chile’s ambassador to the United Nations. Munoz claims that the administration threatened trade reprisals against friendly countries that withheld their support for the U.N. resolution on Iraq, spied on U.S. allies, and pressed for the recall of U.N. envoys who resisted U.S. pressure to endorse the war, the Washington Post reported.
“In the aftermath of the invasion, allies loyal to the United States were rejected, mocked and even punished†for not backing the U.N. resolution, Munoz wrote. But after the war started to fall apart, the administration needed some of those same allies to come to its aid.
146 Comments
MISSION ACCOMPLISHED!
Meanwhile, on 60 Minutes last night was the story of a man who was kidnapped in Pakistan, taken to Afghanistan and subsequently Guantanamo where he was routinely tortured. He was subsequently released after five years of captivity with the files showing that they knew all along he had done nothing. I’m sure that does wonders for America’s image abroad.
And you’d believe anything on 60 minutes why?
Good morning Ben!
I see that lacking any thing of substance you are still parroting the ol’ ‘Mission Accomplished’ mantra.
If the 60 Minutes piece was true, or even partially true or. . hell Ben! It was 60 minutes!
No, Alan, not everything, but this has been pretty much proven; the man was held and tortured for being in the wrong place at the wrong time, and sanctioned by this administration.
As for screwing up diplomatic relations with other countries? Isn’t that just another typical job well done, in an ever lengthening list, by the Bush/Cheney regime?
Great to watch the Wingnut “mind” at work, in the form of Hank Price, denying whatever contradicts its firm beliefs. Facts are nothing compared to beliefs.
On another note, Juan Cole notes the obvious: the invasion of Iraq has super-empowered Iran. when Iran said it wanted the Sadrists to quit fighting, they did so within a day.
“The entire episode underlines how powerful Iran has become in Iraq. The Iranian government had called on Saturday for the fighting to stop. And by Sunday evening it had negotiated at least a similar call from Sadr (whether the fighting actually stops remains to be seen and depends on local commanders and on whether al-Maliki meets Sadr’s conditions).”
http://www.juancole.com
Seems like, if we want to get the situation on the ground in Iraq under control, we might try talking to Iran. Rather than threatening to like, bomb them.
Hank Price,
Thanks for reminding us of Bush’s “Emission Accomplished!” moment. A bit premature, as it turned out.
Hank - even John McSame has questioned the wisdom of alienating the entire world.
…and we would want to continue this awful foreign policy with McBush… um… why?
I dont want four more years of McSame. I dont think the US can survive it. At least not as a world leader.
And… btw… WTF has CONGRESS done lately?
No incumbents!
So are you saying that our incvasion of Iraq demolishing our image abroad is just a matter of opinion or propaganda spread by a liberal press, Hank?
The right wing mantra of “f**k the world, we’ll do as we damn well please” is going to be our downfall, we’re only one of two hundred countries on this earth and our days of being #1 are soon to be over, thanks to 8 yrs of total mismanagement by Bush and Co.
I watched the recording of the 60 minutes and one has to ask oneself, what was that guy thinking making an Islamic pilgrimage across Pakistan right after 911?
Regular - perhaps he thought that since Pakistan is not Saudi Arabia of Afghanistan that he would not get kid-napped. Silly him.
Regular - He was probably thinking that he needed it after 9/11. Many turned to their religion during that time to overcome the horror, not just Christians.
where he was routinely tortured.
that’s alternative interrogational methods.
“How Could We Know?
Did you know that 47 countries’ have reestablished their embassies in Iraq?
Did you know that the Iraqi government currently employs 1.2 million Iraqi people ?
Did you know that 3,100 schools have been renovated, 364 schools are under rehabilitation, 263 new schools are now under construction and 38 new schools have been completed in Iraq ?
Did you know that Iraq! ’s higher educational structure consists of 20 Universities, 46 Institutes or colleges and 4 research centers, all currently operating?
Did you know that 25 Iraq students departed for the United States in January 2005 for the re-established Fulbright program ?
Did you know that the Iraqi Navy is operational ? They have 5-100-foot patrol craft, 34 smaller vessels and a naval infantry regiment.
Did you know that Iraq’s Air Force consists of three operational squadrons, which includes 9 reconnaissance and 3 US C-130 transport aircraft (under Iraqi operational control) which operate day and night, and will soon add 16 UH-1 helicopters and 4 Bell Jet Rangers ?
Did you know that Iraq has a counter-terrorist unit and a Commando Battalion?
Did you know that the Iraqi Police Service has over 55,000 fully trained and equipped police officers?
Did you know that there are 5 Police Academies in Ir aq that produce over 3500 new officers each 8 weeks?
Did you know there are more than 1100 building projects going on in Iraq? They include 364 schools, 67 public clinics, 15 hospitals, 83 railroad stations, 22 oil facilities, 93 water facilities and 69 electrical facilities.
Did you know that 96% of Iraqi children under the age of 5 have received the first 2 series of polio vaccinations?
Did you know that 4.3 million Iraqi children were enrolled in primary school by mid October?
Did you know that there are 1,192,000 cell phone subscribers in Iraq and phone use has gone up 158% ?
Did you know that Iraq has an independent media that consists of 75 radio stations, 180 newspapers and 10 television stations?
Did you know that the Baghdad Stock Exchange opened in June of 2004?
Did you know that 2 candidates in the Iraqi presidential election had a televised debate recently?
OF COURSE WE DIDN’T KNOW! WHY DIDN’T WE KNOW?
YOUR NEWS MEDIA REFUSES TO TELL US!
Instead of reflecting our love for our country, we get photos of flag burning incidents at Abu Ghraib and people throwing snowballs at the presidential motorcades. tragically, the lack of accentuating the positive in Iraq serves three two major purposes of the extreme liberal news media in the USA:
1. It is intended to undermine the world’s perception of the United States thus minimizing consequent support from our allies, and:
2. It is intended to discourage American citizens and erode their support for the war.
All the above facts are verifiable on the Department of Defense web site.”
http://www.defenselink.mil/
…or, he was influenced by Islamic fundamentalism in Hamburg, Germany where Mohammad Atta was living prior to 911.
This guy most likely was into it deeper than he admits and got caught.
Thank GOD! DARE!
We succeeded. Bush was right. We won.
So now we bring the troops home and declare victory.
Did you know that almost 50 million Americans have no health insurance and so, no access to affordable medical care?
Did you know that the Iraq occupation has been projected to cost 3 Trillion dollars?
All the above facts are verifiable on the Department of Defense web site
Y’mean bush’s propoganda machine? the ones telling us how well the surge is working? Ya bring up believing 60 minutes (ok, I agree, you take it with a grain of salt) and then you cite the people who’re telling you they’re doing a great job? I do super work, too, just ask me.
positive - thanks for the good news. Now that we have won and succeeded they can take over their own country and our troops can come home.
“Did you know that almost 50 million Americans have no health insurance and so, no access to affordable medical care?”
Not true JR. 20 million of those without health insurance are illegals. Many million more of them simply choose NOT to enroll in company provided healthcare plans (choice: they spend their money elsewhere).
And did you know 250,000,000 Americans DO have healthcare. The vast majority, a whoppping 84% of Americans do have healthcare insurance.
BTW, your comment about “no access” coupled with “affordable” is misleading.
The issue is do they have access? The answer is YES.
I believe by law, everyone will be treated.
The system works for most of Americans.
“our troops can come home.”
Sorry Ben. Hillary Clinton says she will keep the troops there until at least 2013 and establish permanent bases forever.
McClame, will keep troops there for 100 years.
Only Obama will bring them home, but maybe not. He will listen to the generals time table.
Of course, I don’t hear anyone complaining about the troops still in Korea: 50 years after that war. Germany and Japan: 60 years after WWII..
WTFO?
(choice: they spend their money elsewhere).
Damn luxuries like food, water, and roof.
And Bosnia?
What’s up with Clintons Baltic War? We don’t bring our boys home from there ten years after it was over?
I wonder the cost for all these foreign bases too?
“Damn luxuries like food, water, and roof.”
That’s the nice “compassionate” whine. But look at their SUV’s, cell phones, cable TV, and internet service……
Calling BS.
“I believe by law, everyone will be treated.”
That is stabilizing care only.
What’s up with Clintons Baltic War?
And the Mexican/American war. When are we going to get our troops out of Arizona?
If you go to Via Christi ER and it is determined that you need to be admitted, you will not be turned away. Providing this care is part of their mission, and a major expense for them.
I would assume Wesley is the same way?
After accounting for illegal criminals w/o healthcare insurance, and those who simply by choice decide not to purchase available care, that leaves maybe 20 million without insurance.
That is six percent of the population. Not significant. But do provide some type of relief for these truly needy - who do NOT have available healthcare via employers.
But then again, unemployment nationally is around 4%. Maybe we should nationalize all business to resolve this problem too?
Makes as much sense as nationalizing healthcare.
“and a major expense for them.”
And whom do you suppose is paying for this expense?
Is it the compassionate CEO or BOD? The stock owners of the healthcare industry?
We are paying.
Re : http://blogs.kansas.com/weblog/2008/03/us-burned-diplomatic-bridges-on-iraq/#comment-322723
Civilians being picked up, tortured and or murdered –
http://www.taxitothedarkside.com/
Look what we have become…
.
I don’t know AmWay, Via Christi’s bottom line would be much better without this expense. And they don’t have to do this, but they do. As part of their mission.
That’s the nice “compassionate” whine. But look at their SUV’s, cell phones, cable TV, and internet service……
Calling BS.
Calling right back. I don’t fit into the ‘no insurance’ category, but internet isn’t a luxury if you have 4 kids in school and you and your spouse are both in college. Just having the kids in school forces it to a ‘necessity’ item, unless you’re promoting the idea that only the elite are allowed good grades. By time you consider the time spent at the library for when it’s open (ok, I admit, I’m a small town and don’t have a 24/7 library like y’all do), and if you can actually get an open computer, and considering by time you pay for 3 days of research on that computer you can have a dialup account paid for.
The SUV I will agree with other than the fact that I can see instances where taking my van or my truck is more economically feasible than taking 2 vehicles, ’specially if one of those vehicles has to be driven by one of my 12 year olds. Cell phones I have to agree with ya, too, ‘cept that with the junker cars that the lower earners can afford to purchase and drive (at added cost because they sure can’t afford the hybrids you guys get by so cheaply on) a cell is a survival factor for those commuting the 30 to 60 miles everyday to keep the factories running. It’s pretty hard to walk 30 miles home and 30 miles back to work and be punctual.
“An Army general told them the remains of Maupin, a soldier who had been listed as missing-captured in Iraq since 2004, had been found.
Matt Maupin was a 20-year-old private first class when he was captured April 9, 2004, after his fuel convoy, part of the Bartonville, Ill.-based 724th Transportation Company, was ambushed west of Baghdad.
A week later, the Arab television network Al-Jazeera aired a videotape showing a stunned-looking Maupin wearing camouflage and a floppy desert hat, sitting on the floor surrounded by five masked men holding automatic rifles.
That June, Al-Jazeera aired another tape purporting to show a U.S. soldier being shot. But the dark and grainy tape showed only the back of the victim’s head and not the execution.”
Foxnews
While you guys are crying about US torturing prisoners - the bad guys are chopping off the heads of American prisoners.
I don’t hear anyone internationally complaining about the way the bad guys are treating our troops? In fact, I guess they HATE Americans for waterboarding - but love the bad guys who flat out kill GI’s and publish video of the torture.
Something is bassackward here.
“and you and your spouse are both in college.”
So because you AND your spouse attend college - America is obligated to provide you medical insurance? Choice again.
Sorry, no compassion from me. One of you get a job with insurance.
It is widely known that the guerillas maintain no war doctrine. They commit atrocities. Nothing new there.
Do you , AmWay, suggest that we sink to their level as well? Should we throw out the rule book because the guerillas are fighting like guerillas?
.
but love the bad guys
Would you be referring to other guerillas?
.
“a cell is a survival factor for those commuting”
Lot’s of BS going back and forth today. Geez, I’m stepping knee deep in it.
Funny how the world changes. For generations, Americans have commuted to work with a telephone in their pocket. I just don’t understand it (shaking my head in my hands). How did those people survive????
Do we have a war doctrine?
I don’t think so.
Sinking to their level? No, I don’t think we should plan to hijack any civilian airplanes, cut the throats of the pilots and stewardresses - and crash them into population centers.
Nor am I suggesting any public beheadings.
“- the bad guys are chopping off the heads of American prisoners.”
Just as my lack of health insurance is not your problem “American way”?
What happens to people who voluntarily go to Iraq is not my problem. And protecting you from scary terrorists is not mine nor my son’s problem either.
with a telephone = without
“protecting you from scary terrorists is not mine nor my son’s problem”
Then why are you butting in on what is going on over there?
While you guys are crying about US torturing prisoners - the bad guys are chopping off the heads of American prisoners.
If they weren’t there, would they be treated badly there?
_______________________________________________
So because you AND your spouse attend college - America is obligated to provide you medical insurance? Choice again.
Read again, I said I don’t fit into that category. I have Insurance. Hell, I can afford to get more, but why pay more and still end up getting no gain?
You aren’t paying for healthcare - and you have a son?
How could you?
“Then why are you butting in on what is going on over there?”
Why am I being made to help pay for it?
I’ve no stake in it.
For generations, Americans have commuted to work with a telephone in their pocket.
and for generations Americans worked within 5 miles of their homes, riding their horses, living in one-room balloon houses with no insulation heated with cow manure and dying at 35 years of age. yeah, I’m all for bringing back the good ole days!
And by the way “American way”
Everyone knows that you are another of “Regular”’s puppet nics.
You yourself are a ward of the state.
“If they weren’t there, would they be treated badly there?”
USS Cole, at peace October 12, 2000. 17 KIA/39 WIA.
Robert Stethem, USN, 1985
List can go on.
Accuse everyone who disagrees with you to be Regular.
Nice try JR. But it is not the truth. It does allow you to attempt to discredit other posters.
Disagree with my opinions? Fine. But I still have a right to post them.
I appologize, AmWay, I wasn’t aware the USS Cole was attacked at Norfolk. My bad.
It’s okay American Way, the other day J R claimed I might be WSClark or Chas because he hasn’t met them.
Interesting concept I must say, still getting that bad taste out though.
J R is the blog’s resident paranoid.
The USS Cole was a warship at peace, in a port refueling.
I have in fact met Chas.
Try and keep your lies straight James. In whatever nic you post them.
By the way?
To pull out “Regular” right after you are busted as “American way”?
Not too bright.
JR
Hillary was late on paying health insurance premiums for her staff.
If it was any organization other than Hillary, Aetna and Blue probably would have canceled!
How much money has been “wasted” on the Hillary and Obama campaigns?
http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0308/9274.html
And, as the conservatives on this Blog have been trying to tell everyone, the “mortgage crises” began, in part, after several lenders lost in court, and had to pay damages for “discriminatory lending practices” — this set up a defacto quota system, where lenders came up with all kinds of ways to issue more loans to minorities and lower income groups.
The “Community Development Act” and amendments there to, also had a part in this mess.
Then, in order to pay “ransom” to the trial lawyers and the left, a sub prime mortgage company puts MAGGIE WILLIAMS on its board.
The lender goes under.
Then, Maggie goes back to Hillary:
http://www.newsday.com/news/nationworld/ny-ushill305631627mar30,0,3896712,print.story
Also, it was Bill Clinton who signed “Glass Steagle” allowing the investment banks and commercial banks to merge, as lending was transfered from the local level to Wall Street.
People and organizations make choices.
The sum total of those choices form what we call “the economy” —
I strongly fight against the notion that the sub prime mess can be blamed on any single person or on any political party.
However, since you wish to politicize everything under the sun, you should look at your hero, Hillary.
It is absurd for you to continue your mantra of how much we could “save” in one area, so that we could “spend” that money in another area.
The budget does not work that way.
Also, there is a “moral hazard” in giving benefits to people who refuse to work for those benefits.
The only one “busted” JR is yourself and your assinine remarks.
Geneva convention
Manual for Courts-Martial
Articles of War
UCMJ
The list goes on and on… Which do you suggest we abandon. Or would the list be shorter if you told us which you’d like to keep.
Which one outlines our use of torture?
.
Which one outlines our use of torture?
And/or the murder of detainees?
“It is absurd for you to continue your mantra of how much we could “save” in one area, so that we could “spend” that money in another area.”
You mean they cannot have their cake and eat it too?
JR
Most self employed people who buy their own insurance accept deductables of $2,000.00 to $3,000.00 per YEAR.
Those who go on Medicare at age 65 accept an individual deductable, for hospitalization, of $1,0424.00 in 2008.
You will never, ever get what YOU want JR.
You want someone to pay all of your bills for you.
This is why Hillary knows she will have to GARNISH you, in order to get YOU to pay your fair share.
“fair” share,
is in the eyes of the beholder..
What is fair to JR is not necessarily what is fair to you or me. Or the US government, as represented by some liberal judge.
Excuse me, typo.
I am sure someone caught it by now.
The Medicare deductable is $1,024.00
JR will never get what he wants.
JR wants all “rich” people to pay his way, so that JR can do what ever he wants.
JR doesn’t want to “work for the man” — JR is too proud to do what the rest of us have to do, every day.
Unfortunately, when liberals say “rich”, you better watch your pocketbook. Because it usually means middle class and for sure upper middle class.
And it is fine for JR to not work, as long as you don’t expect another human being to sacrifice from their own hard work - to support you.
But to not provide healthcare for a child, is reprehensible.
AmWay - the Cole wasn’t in Iraq or in Pakistan. It was at a US ally Yemen and another US ally Saudi Arabia was involved.
But, let me make clear, the Medicare hospitalization or Part A deductable is $1,024.00 per admission.
It is not an annual deductable.
In other words, I have a client that was admitted 3 times last year, to a local hospital.
Without the insurance policy that I sold her, she would have been out of pocket $3,072.00 for her deductable, ALONE!
This is WITH wonderful, government provided health care insurance, she would have been out $3,072.00!
So she still needed private insurance, and is grateful to have it.
JR wants a zero premium insurance plan, that pays ALL of his bills, with no deductables and no co-insurance.
And, JR wants the government to PAY for this by raising a White Flag, by surrender and retreat.
It is hard to see how JR deserves a BETTER plan than what the seniors have. (There is a premium for Medicare B).
It is hard to see how we can have any businesses thrive, of any jobs that pay taxes to pay for JR, after the terrorists destroy our country.
Oh, boo hoo, Econ.
How does Canada do it, England, France, Switzerland, Japan, Spain, Ireland, Italy, and even effing Cuba do it?
Not having universal nationalized health care is what is killing our business, not the other way around.
AmWay writes Of course, I don’t hear anyone complaining about the troops still in Korea . . .
If you think the situation in Korea is even remotely like Iraq, we’ll you are too f***ing stupid to even respond to.
But, as for complaining about our troops there, I am complaining about it and always have.
All US troops should be pulled out of every country we occupy immediately. Our duty is not to make the world safe for big capitalism despite Regan-Bush-Bush’s vision.
Any normal person can afford $3,000 per year in health costs; what is the annual premium on the insurance policy you sold her Econ 101? About $3,000, I would expect. Is the tax shelter you were talking about?
As a matter of fact Capn, the situation in Germany, Japan, and Korea is much like Iraq today.
1. The battle between opposing military forces is long over.
2. The US helped “restore the peace”. We probably shot and waterboarded many bad guys in the earlier wars - it just wasn’t news.
3. US Servicemen and women died after the active combatant was defeated.
4. The US established governments - similiar to our own.
5. The US maintains bases, border security forces.
6. The US trained the military/police forces of the newly established governments.
7. The US spends billions of taxpayer dollars to shore up the new governments and “keep them in our sphere of influence”.
8. The US rattles the chains of anyone threatening these countries.
9. etc.. etc… etc….
But I’ll also agree there are differences between Iraq - just as there are between Bosnia, Germany, Japan, Korea and others.
I have posted before that I too, think it’s time to stop being the worlds policeman and to bring them ALL home. I have also posted my displeasure with the Iraq War and Bush too (albeit slightly different reasons than yours).
But there are no differences between any of them now. Bring the troops home from everywhere.
Sarah
You should do some research before you spout off.
No, the annual premium for a good Medicare Supplement Plan, at age 65, is close to $100.00 per month, total, last year.
And, that coverage also will pay for the 20% co-pays for out of pocket expense.
Sarah, JR has complained, on this Blog, about a friend of his who had to take off his own cast, in order to avoid an office visit charge.
My point, of course, is that office visits and such small expenses are usually paid out of pocket, by most rational, productive people.
Sarah, your argument is with JR, not with me.
JR does not want to pay ANYTHING!
That 20% copay, of course, is for Part B, Out of Hospital expenses.
For the kidney or cancer patient, this can be several thousand dollars in additional expenses.
The German resistance to the Unites States Military lasted for several years after the death of Hitler.
resistance to the US goes on and on
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Business_Plot
“resistance to the US goes on and on”
Allegations are like -ssholes. Unless you mean like Timothy McVeigh and OK City.
Ewww, fried fish… again?
http://www.straightdope.com/columns/051118.html
I know, it sounds almost as foil hatted as some of the stuff you guys come up with.
From another thread: Hospitals can’t trun away people for inability to pay, but the cost gets passed along to everyone who pays.
Someone has to pay the cost of our out of control health care system. It’s time to overall eveything and take all the billionaire middle men out of the health care industry..from the inurance companies to the drug companies who are making a fortune off of the American people.
Why is it that “non profit” hospitals are buying up real estate and look more like 5 star hotels than hospitals? Why do we have duplication of services everywhere we look? How many MRI machines or surgery centers does one city need?
Why do the CEOs for the hospitals and drug companies have such outrageous salarys? Why does one pill to treat osteoporosis cost more than $40? Why should it cost $4,000 just to rent a surgery suite for under two hours? Why is it OK that drug companies spend billions on advertising, even more than they do on research.
Maybe it’s time for some regulations to bring down the cost of health care so that the average American can afford it again…right now if a person doesn’t have insurance or government funded benefits, they’ll go bankrupt if they get sick and they’ll lose everything. That’s just not right.
“Maybe it’s time for some regulations to bring down the cost of health care so that the average American can afford it again…right now if a person doesn’t have insurance or government funded benefits, they’ll go bankrupt if they get sick and they’ll lose everything. That’s just not right.”
Actually, they sadly should lose everything.
That is why they have a nest egg in the first place.
It isn’t to pass it on to their offspring. It’s to pay for emergencies and retirement.
It’s called: That’s life.
Do you think WE should pay for it?
Econ, most of us just want affordable, accessable health care..and the insurance companies, some hospitals, and drug companies have made health care economically out of reach due to greed that drives billion dollar profits.
Maybe the government could try some wage and price freezes on the healthcare industry. Sorta like Jimmy Carter tried.
Or maybe more regulation (red tape) so doctors and hospitals have to hire more people. Like they do to handle the medicare/medicaid paperwork?
Maybe nationalize the healthcare industry. Flat out take it over.
Something to ruin the nation.
Mary
Malpractice happens, and those damaged by medical malpractice must be provided for.
However, malpractice insurance costs a great deal, for hospitals and doctors.
Also, a great many tests are done, simply for CYA purposes, in an effort to win in court, should court come.
More to the point; Since many wish to compare American health care to other countries, try this idea;
Malpractice liability reform! There is not a single country with socialized medicine, which does not cap and severly restrict malplractice damage awards.
AM, you already DO pay for it…with higher health care and insurance costs. And not everyone can get coverage.
My sister’s husband spent one week in intensive care beofre he died in December…they had Medicare, thank God…just the hospital bill alone was over $80,000. I know people like you never have to worry about money…but that one week in the hospital would have wiped out their entire life savings without their Medicare benefits. I’m not like you, I just can’t see these situations that average people are in and say “Oh well, who really gives a damn about the losers without insurance”.
“If” they have “life savings” and have not paid for medical coverage - they are losers.
The government cannot be the answer to all of lifes sad stories Mary.
Mary
Though I know that you are sincere in your beliefs, you are also wrong.
You could take the entire pay and benefits packages of the top 5 administrators at every hospital and every health insurance companay, and divide that up among the entire American population, and you would be talking about a very small amount of pocket change.
The compensation of those administrators and CEO’s is not out of line with other industries.
There is no reason to believe that any nationalized system could or would do a better job.
Also, Medicare and Medicaid already contract out most of their actual “customer service” functions.
You firmly believe in a pipe dream.
Populism has gotten the best of you, you are looking for a villain, and that distracts you from the real issues.
“you already DO pay for it…with higher health care and insurance costs.”
I am very much aware that I am paying for it. As I see it, the present system allows for the business to decide how much “I pay” to subsidize everyone else. I still have some control over my own costs, and therefore how much I contribute to the gimmee programs.
We do not need to make it an entitlement program which will regulate and ensure I pay - permanently without control.
I agree Econ…caps on malpractice would be a start. I forgot about all the ambulance chasing lawyers in this country who are getting rich off of the mistakes made in the healthcare industry.
And believe me, AM there is a lot of “red tape” as you put it now in the healthcare industry…much of it due to the requirements of the private insurers. There really is not that much difference between the paperwork required by the government and the private insurers, it’s all about the same..except it’s easier to get reimbursement from the government than it is from the private companies. And patients have to fight a lot more for their benefits when they have private insurance rather than Medicare or Medicaid.
Mary
What do you think about a farmer who REFUSED to buy crop insurance, then demands government benefits when a storm or flood destroys his crops?
It happens, but it is wrong.
So too with people who refuse to buy health insurance, and then DEMAND that the rest of us, who DO PAY our own way, pay for THEM as well!
You are saying that we should pay higher taxes to protect the life savings of other people?
Why?
That is a “moral hazard” that is an encouragement for people to be irresponsible.
But, thank you for making one of my oldest, strongest points on this issue:
The purpose of health insurance is NOT to pay for health care.
The purpose of health insurance is to protect your Estate.
Funny how the left, which wants very high estate tax rates, wants to have the government, through nationalized health care, protect ESTATES!
“Also, Medicare and Medicaid already contract out most of their actual “customer service” functions.”
My own family doctor told me he has stopped taking new medicare/medicaid patients. I mean (cough, cough), new patients. Why because the state regulates and decided how much he can get compensated for these patients. Allowable costs are now below his cost of doing business.
My doctor only takes new patients with health insurance which is not US Government. But he treats EVERYbody (cough, cough).
Why should he operate at a loss? There is plenty of business out there. He can pick and choose his
“customers”.
It can only get worse with more government controls.
Mary,
Surely you know “old people” who cannot find doctors who take medicare/medicaid?
I think 22 yrs in the healthcare industry, both providing patient care in the hospital and out in the field plus working in a health provider’s office on reimbursement has given me enough experience to know that things have to change. The whole system needs to be overhauled so that every American can afford healthcare. Period.
And neither you or AM have addressed any of the concerns I pointed out.
Anyway, I’m off to work…some of us don’t have all day to sit around bitching about how people don’t work hard enough.
“some of us don’t have all day to sit around bitching about how people don’t work hard enough.”
But you don’t have any problem posting how I should pay all your bills for you.
Big surprise for you Mary: Life isn’t fair.
But you don’t have any problem posting how I should pay all your bills for you.
Actually, she wasn’t. She was posing the question of why she should have to pay all the bills of the insurance/pharmacy companies.
Of the 40 countries who support the free market system, captalism and representative government only 3 have no universal health insurance, they are Turkey, Mexico and America. All have longer life spans, lower child mortality rates and less costs to provide that coverage. I’m talking insurance here, not care. American is second to none in care, but none can access it without much greater costs and worry as to financial consequenes vs the universal coverage countries. I thought the thread was diplomatic disaster, and it has been one under Bush. However no country has permanent enemies or friends and everything is ad hoc, so the next administration will not be tarnished by the past. It is very hard to run a foreign policy that won’t annoy someone because America is everywhere and touches everything. We should bear in mind the Russian proverb: “I don’t know why he hates me so much I never did anything for him”.
I thought the thread was diplomatic disaster, and it has been one under Bush
No discussion worth spit is without its digressions.
*ducks*
You’re absolutely right, sursum, but when has that ever meant anything in this forum?
Actually, it was JR who came up with the health care issue on this thread.
JR thinks that if we would just stop defending the United States, we would have enough money to pay all of his bills.
we would have enough money to pay all of his bills.
Not his, OURS. The world doesn’t revolve around you and only YOUR dollars. It isn’t that people are trying to steal your money as much as they’re tired of you stealing theirs. Unrestrained greed is hurting this country drastically, and it isn’t a ‘populist’ (whatever the hell that supposed to mean–hasn’t been any of those since Roosevelt) concoction. Experts on both sides of the aisle have been saying it for over a decade. As long as you have yours then you have no reason to bitch, so you should just ignore the peons, because they don’t effect your hoard anyway.
How could we know;
http://www.aswataliraq.info/look/english/article.tpl?IdLanguage=1&IdPublication=4&NrArticle=74870&NrIssue=2&NrSection=1
109 people killed, 634 others wounded in Sadr city
Baghdad - Voices of Iraq
Monday , 31 /03 /2008 Time 10:05:40
Baghdad, Mar 31, (VOI) – 109 people were killed and 634 others were wounded in the armed confrontations and bombarding operations that took place in Sadr city over the last few days, said the official spokesperson for the Baghdad Health directorate – Rusafa (eastern part of Baghdad).
“This is only in Sadr city, and according to the statistics from the two local hospitals Imam Ali and al-Sadr,” Qassim Mohammed told Aswat al-Iraq – Voices of Iraq – (VOI).
The curfew that was imposed on Baghdad for days was totally lifted on all the city’s neighborhoods on Monday 6 am, but Baghdad Operations Command decided to keep a partial curfew on the Baghdadi neighborhoods of Al-Sho’la, al-Kadhimiya, and Sadr city, by allowing only pedestrians to move through these three Sadrists stronghold areas.
I thought the Surge had as its main objective in Baghdad to go door to door and get all the weapons. Don’t tell me the surge didn’t work!
OK Phantom, I wont tell you that… But it didnt work!! ROFL!!
American Way
Posted March 31, 2008 at 11:03 am
LOL you had me frightened there for a minute AM, I was thinking that you were about to regurgitate an argument that has always made me think the speaker was a damn fool. Pointing to Japan and Germany as a reason to invade and conquered Iraq. It always comes off sounding like pointing to where the Orphanage was fifty years ago before it burnt to the ground killing a hundred orphans. But today there is a large company that employs two thousand workers and contributes to the economy. Thus arguing for the burning of all orphanages, killing all orphans in the name of progress!
I should have known better as for the most part you seem to use common sense even when it is something I do not agree with you about. It took reading through to the end before I said “Yeah you have a point!”
“Actually, she wasn’t. She was posing the question of why she should have to pay all the bills of the insurance/pharmacy companies.”
Fish, maybe you hit a nerve there?? You think??
You think??
Rarely. I just react LOL
Did you know?
http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/5B329502-E818-44B1-9445-AC1D6407D488.htm
Fighters loyal to Muqtada al-Sadr, a Shia leader, have disappeared from the streets of Iraq after a week of clashes with government security forces.
Residents of Baghdad and Basra came out to bury their dead and shop for supplies as curfews were eased in the two cities on Monday.
Restrictions were lifted after al-Sadr ordered the fighters to withdraw on Sunday.
The violence, which left an estimated more than 450 people dead, began when an Iraqi military crackdown on warring Shia groups in Basra sparked unrest across the country.
I had seen that Annie. Apparently the Iraqi government went to Iran and got them to bail them out:
“The peace deal between al-Sadr and Iraqi government forces - said to have been brokered in Iran - calmed the violence but left the cleric’s Mahdi Army intact and Iraq’s U.S.-backed prime minister politically battered and humbled within his own Shiite power base.
The confrontation enabled al-Sadr to show that he remains a powerful force capable of challenging the Iraqi government, the Americans and mainstream Shiite parties that have sought for years to marginalize him. And the outcome cast doubt on President Bush’s assessment that the Basra battle was “a defining moment” in the history “of a free Iraq.”
But well-informed Iraqi political officials said the Iranians played a key role in hammering out the peace deal, boosting the Islamic Republic’s influence among the majority Shiite community. The officials spoke on condition of anonymity because of the sensitivity of the information.
According to one Shiite official, the deal was struck after hours of negotiations in the Iranian holy city of Qom involving key figures in Iraq’s major Shiite parties and representatives of the Iranian Revolutionary Guard.”
So - Iran is now even stronger and the US-supported regime even weaker thsan before.
Looks like a littl muscle flexing. Letting the boys know they’ll be ready when we pull out. Iran said long ago, they’ll always be next door and some day the Americans would leave. Either we stay in perpetuity and provide partially effective security, or we get the hell out.
Dare to be positive–
Did you know that all of that would be much more impressive if it hadn’t been us who blasted the Iraqi infrastructure to dust, destroying all those schools, hospitals, etc., in the first place?
Did you know we did so in a country we were tricked by this Administration into invading?
Did you know that we had no business going in there and destroying the nation in the first place?
“…or, he was influenced by Islamic fundamentalism in Hamburg, Germany where Mohammad Atta was living prior to 911.
This guy most likely was into it deeper than he admits and got caught.”
Posted by regular.
This is what bothers me about the republicans. Regular seems to think the guy is guilty because he lives in the same country one of the 9/11 morons lived.
Hell, regular, doesn’t it stand to reason you live in the same country as BTK, so you gotta be a killer? Your logic is flawed in too many ways.
And your last sentence sure defies the constitution you would have us think you believe in: Innocent until proven guilty. The guy was twisted every which way but loose, and there was nada. Except . . . he’s still considered a terrorist by this country. Much easier to accuse, than own up to a mistake.
“But you don’t have any problem posting how I should pay all your bills for you.”
Excuse me, American Way, but if you’re on Medicare, then I’m paying YOUR way.
I find it funny that those who are so opposed to government substidized health care for every American citizen are the ones who have it for themselves…like you and Nathan.
“This guy most likely was into it deeper than he admits and got caught.”
Then why, when the US finally released the hostage, did they acknowledge that there was nothing there? In fact, why did they admit that several years ago, promise to release him then, and continue to hold him for years more?
Not just the same “country” Walker… even the same COUNTY!! LOL
The most despicable acts of deceit ongoing in this country are the lies and hypocrisy perpetrated by the people seen in this short video.
The next time you hear the expression “Bush’s war,” just refer them to this video and ask them to note that this is not just someone’s opinion, but DIRECT video. It deserves worldwide distribution.
You won’t see this video compilation on mainstream media, or get it from the Eagle’s editorial board.
Link:
http://www.bercasio.com/movies/dems-wmd-before-iraq.wmv
In America profits are privatized, losses are socialized. In 2002, the Bushies looking for gains amongst the poorer minorites hit on the idea of home ownership for all,the ultimate American success story and dream for everyone regardless of income. Those are exactly the people who got taken in by advice from bankers and mortgage companies that 0% down over 40 years was the way to go and just let the rise in real estate guarantee surety of your ownership loan. Now these are less that well educated people listening to professional bankers consumers would never even know of their loans being bundled and sold to investment bankers who in turn would bundle them into mutual an other funds/portfolios as fool-proof-mortgage-backed instruments. Don’t blame the little guy it was the pros who set them up and everyone should know it. But we’ll socialize the costs like we did in the Savings and Loans scandal on the theory not to do so MIGHT retard the economy. Like shipping jobs overseas didn’t retard the economy! Yep, the ubercaptialists want government out of the way until their check comes to be paid, then scream after and while it is being paid about any other kind of government “interference” in the market like universal health insurance. There are days I feel the system has been prostitued and we either nail these pimps or switch vices. Does anyone know if there are still bootleggers around?
Thank you Boxlock…..shows them for who they really are
Boxlock you get the nightly truthiness award enjoy
Truthiness is a word that U.S. television comedian Stephen Colbert popularized in 2005 as a satirical term to describe things that a person claims to know intuitively or “from the gut” without regard to evidence, logic, intellectual examination, or facts.[1] Colbert popularized this definition of the word during the inaugural (pilot) episode (October 17, 2005) of his satirical television program The Colbert Report, as the subject of a segment called “The Wørd”. It was named Word of the Year for 2005 by the American Dialect Society and for 2006 by Merriam-Webster.[2][3]
By using the term as part of his routine, Colbert sought to satirize the use of appeal to emotion and the “gut feeling” as a rhetorical device in contemporary socio-political discourse.[4] He particularly applied it to U.S. President George W. Bush’s nomination of Harriet Miers to the Supreme Court and the decision to invade Iraq in 2003.[5] Colbert later ascribed truthiness to other institutions and organizations, such as Wikipedia.[6]
Swiped and paraphrased from Bart…………
John McCain - older than Reagan and dumber than Bush.
What a campaign slogan!
Yeah Boxlox, I and other have posted that video or a link to it, at least two dozen times.
Duh Libs on this Blog are in continual denial and rewrite history every day.
It’s their job to lie and lie they do.
Yawn, too long to download.
Looked like con propoganda to me anyway.
It IS bush’s war. And I am not opposed to letting those who want to fight it.
As long as I don’t have to pay for it. I didn’t lose anything in Iraq. And scary terrorists are WAY down the list of things I have to worry or care about.
Replaying quotes from Democrats that were made PRIOR to the inspectors returning to Iraq in late 2002 is, at best, disingenuous.
We have been down this road many times before - had the inspectors been allowed to complete their work prior to the invasion, they would have proven what we all know now - Saddam did not have WMD and he was no threat to the United States.
Damn.
“It’s their job to lie and lie they do.”
Like denying that you are JM for over a year before finally ‘fessing up.
Like that?
“Boxlock”=”Regular”=”Anti”
March 7, 2003 | New York, USA
Statement to the United Nations Security Council
‘The Status of Nuclear Inspections in Iraq: An Update’
http://www.iaea.org/NewsCenter/Statements/2003/ebsp2003n006.shtml
The invasion of Iraq began on March 20, 2003.
Yeah, Boxlock.
Many Dems talked about Saddam’s WMD’s at various times in the 1990’s.
But we didn’t go to war over them. We said give the Hans Blix team a chance.
Bush used the Blix team as a cover while he assembled troops for a pre-conceived invasion, damn the rationale.
In fact, Bush talked about invading Iran and “taking Saddam out” when he was a candidate in 1999.
It’s “Bush’s War” without a doubt, without question.
http://www.snopes.com/politics/war/wmdquotes.asp
Actually, Clark, “Regular” has never admitted that he posted as JM — he never ‘fessed up.
We never had conclusive proof until “Regular” shat bricks when someone posted JM’s home address.
Why should Regular go ballistic about JM’s personal information, unless they were one in the same.
But you give the troll too much credit. He never admitted to J M. He simply outed himself.
“J R”, So it’s Bush’s war, and Democrats are just mindless retards? Bush is an idiot yet capable of causing every problem known to man and no one can stop him?…you all have some phucked up logic. Oh and Obama hates “J R’s” son..
And it begins…
Off your meds James?
“J R”, why don’t you go shut off your electricity for an hour and burn a flag in your backyard. That will REALLY change the world….you really showed “Them”..
Democrats aren’t mindless retards.
They got finessed into voting to give the “President authority to go to war” which instantly became “supporting the President’s war.”
In a sense they deserve it for not doing more to stop Worst. President. Ever.
But make no mistake, without George WMD Bush ramrodding this thing, it would have never happened.
I think it so interesting to watch the DemLibs squirm whenever confronted with the hypocrisy of their own leaders, and of themselves. Happens on these blogs regularly, as can be seen even now.
Most are just douches, esp. JR…I’ve never seen anybody so pathetically paranoid of whose using what nic. Hum, sad really.
Thanks cosmos for the link! I was glad to see that.
http://www.snopes.com/politics/war/wmdquotes.asp
“They got finessed” (D)- and don’t forget publicly promoted the war.
It IS bush’s war.
Maybe when he is out of a job, he will go fight it?
He could take James with him.
Top ten signs your country is going fascist enjoy;
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OSuWCIYi7T4
“Democrats aren’t mindless retards.”
But they let some “Texas Cowboy” who fumbles his words, can’t speak well, who is an idiot, coke head, drunk, fool, ect… talked them into the war??? What does that say about democratic leaders you hold in high regard?
J R-”It IS bush’s war.
Maybe when he is out of a job, he will go fight it?
He could take James with him”
That is the best that you have to offer???? HA HA
Speaking of squirming hypocrites, here’s what Colin Powell said in a joint press conference with Egyptian Foreign Minister Moussa, 24 Feb. 2001:
We had a good discussion, the Foreign Minister and I and the President and I, had a good discussion about the nature of the sanctions — the fact that the sanctions exist — not for the purpose of hurting the Iraqi people, but for the purpose of keeping in check Saddam Hussein’s ambitions toward developing weapons of mass destruction. We should constantly be reviewing our policies, constantly be looking at those sanctions to make sure that they are directed toward that purpose. That purpose is every bit as important now as it was ten years ago when we began it. And frankly they have worked. He has not developed any significant capability with respect to weapons of mass destruction. He is unable to project conventional power against his neighbors.
For the record J R, I do not agree with a lot of what GWB does, but what I can’t understand is why you all give him full responsibility for the war, when your people were and are still allowing it to occur.
Here’s the effing link:
http://www.state.gov/secretary/former/powell/remarks/2001/933.htm
They’re not our people.
A few of them are–Feingold and Wellstone (RIP) and Kuchinich and Jim McDermott and Max Cleland are.
Most of them are gutless enablers that allow Worst. President. Ever. to sh!t all over the Constitution.
But at least they aren’t the ones sh!tting on it.
Boxlock,
Thank you for proving that you are too dumb to understand that the first goal of the AUMF was to get inspectors into Iraq. It’s also called diplomatic “leverage”.
March 7, 2003 | New York, USA
Statement to the United Nations Security Council
‘The Status of Nuclear Inspections in Iraq: An Update’
http://www.iaea.org/NewsCenter/Statements/2003/ebsp2003n006.shtml
The invasion of Iraq began on March 20, 2003.
CapnAmerica, I would agree to the point that there are true traitors to Us and the Constitution on both sides of the aisle.
Nothing to see here… SS DD same old nics same style of typing they must all be connected some how!! LOL
Auntie,
“But they let some “Texas Cowboy” who fumbles his words, can’t speak well, who is an idiot, coke head, drunk, fool, ect… talked them into the war???”
He certainly didn’t talk me into this mess! I still have a sign reading “Keep the US out of Iraq” that’s been sitting in my front window since Jan. of ‘03, and is so faded now that I need a replacement. There are a lot of other people he didn’t flim-flam either, but not for lack of trying! I’ll admit that the run-up to the war was a masterpiece of propaganda and fraud, so I doubt that Bush had a hand in orchestrating it. He left that job to Cheney & crew.
cosmos
Posted March 31, 2008 at 9:40 pm | Permalink
“Boxlock,
Thank you for proving that you are too dumb to understand that the first goal of the AUMF was to get inspectors into Iraq. It’s also called diplomatic “leverage”.
cosmos, I continue to give you more credit than you deserve….my comment was tongue in cheek.
You continue to prove you are ‘an intellectual only in your own mind’.
cosmos,
Also, remember if you able that Snopes listed the statements ‘Status’ as “TRUE”, and “substantially correct”.
And of course the video speaks for itself. The DemLibs are so funny when directly ‘caught in the act’ they simply respond…’are you going to believe me or are you going to believe your lying eyes’.
Boxlock,
Please continue to ignore the fact that the statements made way back in 1998 were BEFORE four nights of airstrikes (Desert Fox) in Dec 1998.
Please continue to ignore the fact that the 2002 statements were made BEFORE inspectors said in Mar 2003 that no WMD’s had been found.
cosmos,
Please note that Saddam Hussein led the Arms Inspectors around by the nose to where, when and what he wished them to see.
Please continue to ignore the fact that even Inspectors acknowledge the fact that they knew that each delay and re-routing of their inspections was deliberate and concocted by Hussein.
jimmymac,
Please note that you are wrong.
The inspectors said the Iraqis were helpful during the inspections, and even proactive.
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