WE Blog

Well if they wanted to PAY for it too Mr. Price, I might agree.

Estimates have the Iraq occupation costing as much as 3 trillion dollars. I think those happy young men and women you speak of can find a hobby less expensive to the country.

Why is it that Ron Paul was the only anti-war republican running and got more campaign contributions than any other candidate? I think Mr. Price’s statement might not be accurate.

Start disengagement now. Bring the troops home.

I was in the first gulf war. Believe me; we were highly briefed on conversing with the media. Take interviews and polls with a grain of salt.

I say the most telling is where they put their money; Ron Paul. An anti war conservative.

Hell no, it’s not worth it. Bring our troops home!

Ask the Iraqi people (those who haven’t already fled the country). No, most of them didn’t like living under the B’aath dictatorship, but it was hardly worse than the Hell-on-Earth we’ve given them in return.

And, according tothe reports I have gotten, the Iraquis want us out, but not yet……

Why would an Iraqi patrol a street and risk his life when an American will gladly do it for him? The Iraqis will never stand on their own while they have us as a crutch.

I was in. In the first one, I didn’t really care why we were there. I was there to do a job. I took pride in my job and in my unit. Of course I had no problem being there. How many kids over there today just love their job? How many of those kids are really thinking about why they are there? How many kids understand that by them being there, helping the Iraqis is hurting the Iraqis?

The US being there is feeding al-qaeda. After we are gone, who is it that al-qaeda will have to fight?

“Hank Price” should (and won’t) check out http://www.ivaw.org

From that site:

Here are 10 reasons we oppose this war:

1) The Iraq war is based on lies and deception.
The Bush Administration planned for an attack against Iraq before September 11th, 2001. They used the false pretense of an imminent nuclear, chemical and biological weapons threat to deceive Congress into rationalizing this unnecessary conflict. They hide our casualties of war by banning the filming of our fallen’s caskets when they arrive home, and when they refuse to allow the media into Walter Reed Hospital and other Veterans Administration facilities which are overflowing with maimed and traumatized veterans.
For further reading: http://www.motherjones.com/bush_war_timeline/index.html

2)The Iraq war violates international law.
The United States assaulted and occupied Iraq without the consent of the UN Security Council. In doing so they violated the same body of laws they accused Iraq of breaching.
For further reading:
http://www.yale.edu/lawweb/avalon/imt/proc/imtconst.htm
http://www.westpointgradsagainstthewar.org/

3)Corporate profiteering is driving the war in Iraq.
From privately contracted soldiers and linguists to no-bid reconstruction contracts and multinational oil negotiations, those who benefit the most in this conflict are those who suffer the least. The United States has chosen a path that directly contradicts President Eisenhower’s farewell warning regarding the military industrial complex. As long as those in power are not held accountable, they will continue…
For further reading:
http://www.commondreams.org/headlines04/0714-01.htm
http://www.publicintegrity.org/wow/

4)Overwhelming civilian casualties are a daily occurrence in Iraq.
Despite attempts in training and technological sophistication, large-scale civilian death is both a direct and indirect result of United States aggression in Iraq. Even the most conservative estimates of Iraqi civilian deaths number over 100,000. Currently over 100 civilians die every day in Baghdad alone.For further reading:
http://www.nomorevictims.org/
http://www.guardian.co.uk/Iraq/Story/0,2763,1338749,00.html
http://www.select.nytimes.com/gst/abstract.html?res=F70A1EF73C5A0C758DDDA10894DE404482

5)Soldiers have the right to refuse illegal war.
All in service to this country swear an oath to protect and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, both foreign and domestic. However, they are prosecuted if they object to serve in a war they see as illegal under our Constitution. As such, our brothers and sisters are paying the price for political incompetence, forced to fight in a war instead of having been sufficiently trained to carry out the task of nation-building.
For further reading:
http://www.thankyoult.live.radicaldesigns.org/content/view/172/
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qa6ZHYcG_EM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1dAXQeH7y9g&mode=related&search=
http://www.girights.objector.org

6)Service members are facing serious health consequences due to our Government’s negligence.
Many of our troops have already been deployed to Iraq for two, three, and even four tours of duty averaging eleven months each. Combat stress, exhaustion, and bearing witness to the horrors of war contribute to Post Traumatic Stress Disorder (PTSD), a serious set of symptoms that can lead to depression, illness, violent behavior, and even suicide. Additionally, depleted uranium, Lariam, insufficient body armor and infectious diseases are just a few of the health risks which accompany an immorally planned and incompetently executed war. Finally, upon a soldier’s release, the Veterans Administration is far too under-funded to fully deal with the magnitude of veterans in need.
For further reading:
http://www.ncptsd.va.gov/
http://www.vets4vets.us/

7)The war in Iraq is tearing our families apart.
The use of stop-loss on active duty troops and the unnecessarily lengthy and repeat active tours by Guard and Reserve troops place enough strain on our military families, even without being forced to sacrifice their loved ones for this ongoing political experiment in the Middle East.
For further reading: http://www.military.com/NewsContent/0,13319,FL_loss_092704,00.html

8)The Iraq war is robbing us of funding sorely needed here at home.
$5.8 billion per month is spent on a war which could have aided the victims of Hurricane Katrina, gone to impoverished schools, the construction of hospitals and health care systems, tax cut initiatives, and a host of domestic programs that have all been gutted in the wake of the war in Iraq.
For further reading:
http://www.costofwar.com

9)The war dehumanizes Iraqis and denies them their right to self-determination.
Iraqis are subjected to humiliating and violent checkpoints, searches and home raids on a daily basis. The current Iraqi government is in place solely because of the U.S. military occupation. The Iraqi government doesn’t have the popular support of the Iraqi people, nor does it have power or authority. For many Iraqis the current government is seen as a puppet regime for the U.S. occupation. It is undemocratic and in violation of Iraq’s own right to self-governance.
For further reading:
http://www.riverbendblog.blogspot.com/

10)Our military is being exhausted by repeated deployments, involuntary extensions, and activations of the Reserve and National Guard.
The majority of troops in Iraq right now are there for at least their second tour. Deployments to Iraq are becoming longer and many of our service members are facing involuntary extensions and recalls to active duty. Longstanding policies to limit the duration and frequency of deployments for our part-time National Guard troops are now being overturned to allow for repeated, back-to-back tours in Iraq. These repeated, extended combat tours are taking a huge toll on our troops, their families, and their communities.
For further reading:
http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/nation/la-na-military12jan12,0,7198945.story?coll=la-home-headlines

“The US being there is feeding al-qaeda. After we are gone, who is it that al-qaeda will have to fight?”

I could ask a similar question using the same reasoning:

If New York City and Washington DC didn’t exist, what else is there for Al qaeda to attack?

Since Americans exist, is it the American’s fault that Al Qaeda attacks Americans using suicide bombers? Al Qaeda has no more right to Iraq than American soldiers do. So why let them take over the place?

No, if we actually had a threat to America then it’d be worth it, but we don’t, and we’ve managed to lose world support, gain more hostility from ALL nations, we’re dropping the ball on Russia, and OBL is STILL out there.

Our economy is crashing, we’ve got more debt than ever. Our jobs are dwindling.

People are dying, people are suffering. Now I can’t help but think anyone who thinks continuing this belief system is good for America need to be institutionalized.

War is good for the economy, PoliMom. See how well we’re doing, now? Aren’t you rolling in Franklins?

SolDevVB,

How very disingenuous you are.

You were trained in one year by a military that has already established itself as one of the best in the world.

The Iraq Security forces are being built basically from scratch with no infrastructure, real equipment, training, or logistics systems.

It is not as simple minded as thinking that because somehow it took a year to train you it should only take a similar amount of time to build an army from scratch and police forces from scratch.

If New York City and Washington DC didn’t exist, what else is there for Al qaeda to attack?

Since Americans exist, is it the American’s fault that Al Qaeda attacks Americans using suicide bombers?

These questions seem to presume that Al-Qaeda attacked America simply because America existed. Obviosly, there were reasons for the attack on 9-11, just as there are reasons Al-Qaeda attacks Americans in Iraq. It sidesteps a legitimate question.

Who, indeed, would Al-Qaeda attack? The Al-Maliki government is little more than a puppet Shiite regime, so it would certainly come under fire, absent the U.S. troops.

But is because it’s a Shiite-dominated government? Uhm, no.

Why hasn’t Al-Qaeda attacked Iran?

Or Zimbabwe, for that matter!

Dammit, lost my HTML–oh well.

SolDevVB,

Most of the army had quit prior to our invasion. Only the most dedicated and loyal units stayed and fought against us.

We destroyed those who did.

Because so many in the military were not trusted because of the atrocities they committed on their own people we disbanded the rest.

So, yes, we basically rebuilt the entire police force and military from scratch.

Perhaps if you watched more than the explosions on CNN and actually learned something about the war you would know these things.

Instead you try to be cute with a little saying about how it only took you a year to train so why isn’t Iraq ready.

Talk about an ignorant thing to say.

Sol, LJ, I’m afraid I have to agree with Nate on this. Not the whole war thingy, that’s just BS to make money for a few elite. But the training bit. When I joined the Monthly Mercenaries and I saw how ignorant and ill-trained these troops were considering many had been doing it for over 5 years, and this was supposed to be our ‘last line of defense’, I became really worried. Granted there were a few who really knew their stuff, but if I had to put a number, I’d say 1 in 8 wouldn’t be eating bullets in the first hour.

It takes more than 5 years to teach someone urban techniques and basic marksmanship?

It didn’t take them long to learn to be targets
*ducks*
Ok, that’s cold, I just couldn’t help myself. Slap me, Solly

Make that role. Got food on the brain.

There is a real possibility that the training had to be done all over again, at least those trained under Rumsfield. His idea of training was a rifle, a uniform and teach them to walk in a straight line and poof you is a Iraqis soldier! And no I am not being sarcastic, that at one point was the training schedule two days and you stand there—->

There has been some very good accomplishment done within the last year and the surge has accomplished the military aspect to the point there was the time that Al-Qaeda needed to self destruct in Iraq. It is showing that both the Sunnis and the Shiite are not willing to be puppets of Iran to me that was not a surprise. We still need to hold our breath and cross our fingers that it keeps going in the right direction. We still need to treat the Iraqis like adults and not children.

SolDevVB,

It appears as if you are unable to understand the difference between training on the individual level and training on the scale of an entire military and police force.

No one is arguing the time to train “one” individual soldier.

It is the time it takes to create the command and infrastructure to support not just one soldier but an entire army and then provide them support.

That is why you are being ignorant in your comments.

Let’s return now to those exciting days of yesteryear! Nate, when was the Marine Corps founded? How about the Navy? they and the Army were thrown together in a very short time, and last I checked we’re not speaking English here.

(yeah, ok, kinda/sorta, but ya get my drift)

And yet they do. How many times have we seen police recruits, and army recruits, being the subject of suicide or car bombs? I believe the Iraqui people would be more than happy to have an effective police and military. Although past experience may make them a little gunshy. I think it is the failing of the Iraqui government that they do not have one. It is THEY who we must call in to account

Time to start disengagement

Past time to start disengagement

Nathan,
Do you claim Iraqis on your tax returns? They have a government. They have a military. They have a police force. These are not new to them. They had them before.

Did the original police force not have logistics? How about their army? Any logistics?

As far as tank drivers, I think they had them before too. You are under the false assumption that Iraqis were cavemen before the US showed up.

As to being dumb, it seems as though you are proving the Jar Head mentality to a T. Too bad you buy in so deep to the mislead GOP. With the heart and fortitude you posses, you would be a force to be reckoned with. But until you learn to think outside the GOP…

US Army. 1988 to 1997.

There was never an intention to leave Iraq.

It was meant for us to have a garrison there permanently.

Fortunately, time runs out for the bush regime.

Iraq had one of the largest and best equipped military in the region, that is what made them such a concern there. It was in the will power arena where they were lacking, many were conscripts. As to intelligence, least we forget these people were using science and mathematics while many of our ancestors were still throwing stick at each other and painting themselves Blue!

“writerdog” reminds us –

“…these people were using science and mathematics while many of our ancestors were still throwing sticks at each other…”

Good Lord, you’re right!

They invented algebra! (al Gebra)

We’re probably at war because they screwed up Shrub’s middle school math grades!

“Nathan” –

Military minds even superior to yours (Colin Powell comes to mind) have been telling America and this American pResident since 2002 that Iraq is gonna be a bloodbath whenever American troops leave; today, tomorrow, next year, in 10 years, in a hundred (not to mention last year or the year before or the year before. The key part of the “Pottery Barn” quote consists of the words: “If you break it….” Powell KNEW Shrub’s policy of unilateral unprovoked war against a non-threat to America would break Iraq.

Nobody feels good about the inevitable consequences of George WMD Bush’s little Iraqi adventure. But I’m here to guarantee you that there will be internal chaos in Iraq whether Americans leave this year or next or in McCain’s hundred year scenario.

Yours and Cheney’s and Bush’s attitude is like the guy falling off the Empire State Building and saying “So far, so good” has he passes the 89th, then the 75th, then the 39th floors. Meanwhile, you’re all too willing to throw American troops out of lower-story windows to… cushion the fall?!

Do you like country music, “Nathan?” Look up this old Johnny Cash song:

It was back in nineteen forty-two,
I was a member of a good platoon.
We were on maneuvers in-a Loozianna,
One night by the light of the moon.
The captain told us to ford a river,
That’s how it all begun.
We were — knee deep in the Big Muddy,
But the big fool said to push on.

The Sergeant said, “Sir, are you sure,
This is the best way back to the base?”
“Sergeant, go on! I forded this river
‘Bout a mile above this place.
It’ll be a little soggy but just keep slogging.
We’ll soon be on dry ground.”
We were — waist deep in the Big Muddy
And the big fool said to push on.

The Sergeant said, “Sir, with all this equipment
No man will be able to swim.”
“Sergeant, don’t be a Nervous Nellie,”
The Captain said to him.
“All we need is a little determination;
Men, follow me, I’ll lead on.”
We were — neck deep in the Big Muddy
And the big fool said to push on.

All at once, the moon clouded over,
We heard a gurgling cry.
A few seconds later, the captain’s helmet
Was all that floated by.
The Sergeant said, “Turn around men!
I’m in charge from now on.”
And we just made it out of the Big Muddy
With the captain dead and gone.

We stripped and dived and found his body
Stuck in the old quicksand.
I guess he didn’t know that the water was deeper
Than the place he’d once before been.
Another stream had joined the Big Muddy
‘Bout a half mile from where we’d gone.
We were lucky to escape from the Big Muddy
When the big fool said to push on.

Well, I’m not going to point any moral;
I’ll leave that for yourself
Maybe you’re still walking, you’re still talking
You’d like to keep your health.
But every time I read the papers
That old feeling comes on;
We’re — waist deep in the Big Muddy
And the big fool says to push on.

Waist deep in the Big Muddy
And the big fool says to push on.
Waist deep in the Big Muddy
And the big fool says to push on.
Waist deep! Neck deep! Soon even a
Tall man’ll be over his head, we’re
Waist deep in the Big Muddy!
And the big fool says to push on!

Nathan-

Wow! grow up a little. I didn;t attack you, I simply disagreed with you. For that, You want to give a bunch of crap, and tell me how stupid I am? Nice. You wanta trade barbs with me, you go right ahead and play all by yourself, or with yourself. I refuse to participate in your playtime. I thought maybe your were old enough and wise enough to have an intelligent discussion with, even with someone who disagrees with you. I guess I was wrong, and won;t make the same mistake twice. Too bad. I have respect for nearly everyone that has served in the US Armed Forces.

MonkeyHawk-

I am not sure what your point was about the article you linked to. I read the article, the whole article. I think that nobody understand the human cost of military action like the rank and file. Nobody.

outlander
Posted March 24, 2008 at 3:07 pm | Permalink
“…these people were using science and mathematics while many of our ancestors were still throwing sticks at each other…”

————–

Wonder what happened?

Unless they introduced stupid pills into the water supply, it demonstrates how government can retard a nation’s progress. Also demonstrates the value of a style of government that rewards individual effort and innovation.

____________________________________________

Part of the down fall of middle eastern superiority, might actually be rampant opium and hashish use. This might have attributed to the paranoia they have that invariably led them to adopting isolationist policies and their xenophobic views about Western socities and even the far east asian countries. After they isolated themselves for so long, trade was scarce and innovations trickled down to almost nothing when they stopped sharing ideas with foreigners.

Some one better let the marines and soldiers in Iraq know the bad news as the reenlistment rate is at an all time high.

The comment made by most of the soldiers and marines who are the best we ever had, is that that wanted to feel like they are getting support from home.

Folks, these young men and women have eyes and ears. When they read the comments of the cowardly and the weak or just the plain selfish, it has an effect on their morale.

The reenlistment bonus are very high now. A special forces person in certain areas can get as much as $150,000 for a six year reenlistment.

While most bonuses aren’t nearly that high, it does my heart good that these young men and women who are setting reenlistment records in combat areas are getting what the deserve and need.

For some of you, this isn’t Vietnam, there are no more hippies around and no one isn’t running to Canada. The young men and women serving in Iraq and Afghanistan are professional soldiers, marines, sailors and airmen. They know exactly what they are doing and proud to be doing it.

Want to know the attitude of the men and women over there? Just take a close listen to Nathan. 99 percent of his fellow servicemen and women have exactly the same attitude as he does and are proud and willing to serve.

Either support them or get the hell out of the way. These people are going to be there and they are going to perform their duty because they want to.

Support the troops.

Littlejohn,

If you can’t tell the difference in my thinking your opinions are dumb and simply calling you names, then by all means, pershaps you shouldn’t be in a discussion with me.

The leaders of middle eastern countries have been for a long time accepting of hashish and opium use religiously, apparently they didn’t get the memo about the effects of abusing substances is the same thing as alcoholism. I truley believe leaders of middle eastern countries in the past 600 years have had delusional thoughts about foreign policy because they have been so high on weed and opium, Hookah hits anyone?

The real question is, if the USofA had failed to expend its most valuable sweat, blood, and guts to depose Saddam Hussein’s brutal dictatorship, harboring terrorist threats against us, would we all be regretting that now? I say, yes, and God bless the brave volunteers defending our national security and vital interests in Iraq and Afghanistan.

From Regular

“it.

“Want to know the attitude of the men and women over there? Just take a close listen to Nathan. 99 percent of his fellow servicemen and women have exactly the same attitude as he does and are proud and willing to serve.”

They are indeed proud and willing to serve. They are not in 99% agreement with Nathan. I talk to to many returnees. Time to get out. The troops are ready. Read my 12:35 post.

Well littlejohn, if all you can propose is ’slippery slope’ arguments then it’s not a wonder your arguments get poohed.

No one likes to talk to the Church of Perpetual Pessimisms.

There are bumps in Iraq and tragic death is tragic no matter how you put it.

However, your plan I’m sure has been studied, re-studied and studied some more. It’s not currently in the cards or in the mission statement of the Military in Iraq.

One thing I know and have learned, even though I have a large amount of military experience, what I think doesn’t matter a lot when it comes to planning a mission or long range goals. Why? Because I’m out of the loop and don’t know what the mission is for sure, don’t know the success or failures and certainly don’t know the men and women on a face to face daily basis.

If it was a disaster like many implicate, then there we would be out of there. It isn’t a disaster, it’s becoming more of a success every day.

Support the troops

Support our Troops!! Get them OUT of Iraq!! Bring them home!!

Do we support Alcoholics in Rehab, by buying them a wonderful, expensive bottle of Scotch??

Thats what we are doing with our troops!! GET THEM HOME!! That is how we show our support!!

“It isn’t a disaster, it’s becoming more of a success every day.”

And the Iraqis celebrated their political reconciliation when?

And the 60 Iraqis that died in bombings a day ago were resurrected when?

And the mortars launched into the Green Zone turned out to be sweets and flowers when?

And the last billion we spent was truly the last billion?

And the family of the 4,000th soldier to die is……..

Yeah, a real success, getting better everyday.

Nearly 4000 died last month due to traffic accidents WSClark. I thought the Highway and Transportation system was suppose to lower traffic deaths? Aren’t they doing their jobs?

Are they going to be resurrected?

That’s
one
month
of
deaths

4,000 traffic fatalities

“Nearly 4000 died last month due to traffic accidents WSClark”

Well damn, that makes it all okay now. For get about the dead and wounded, the drain on our treasury and the loss of our position within the world community.

My bad.

And do not tell those new U.S. recruits how the invasion forces (mostly U.S.) failed to secure 340 metric tons of very dangerous high explosives.
http://www.globalsecurity.org/wmd/world/iraq/al_qa_qaa-explosives.htm

BTW: Those explosives can be used to trigger nuclear weapons.

Points and laughs at cosmos because he’s digging out arguments that are 8 years old.

“In fact excessive speed is the cause for most traffic accidents.”

We heard the same crap back in ‘68 when Nixon had his “secret plan” to end the War in Viet Nam.

More people die of breast cancer, heart attacks and murder than have died in Viet Nam, er, Iraq, but that STILL doesn’t justify the Bush War of Choice on Iraq.

The right wing can spin it anyway they want, but we have lost 4,000 of our best and brightest, spent over $1 trillion and destroyed the goodwill of the world that was extended to us after 9/11.

The right has much to be proud of……..

This
isn’t
Vietnam

There
are
no
hippies

People
are
not
running
to
Canada

“This isn’t Vietnam”

Not much difference. It has nothing to do with our national security, is a waste of lives and treasure and has reduced our standing in the world community.

It may not be spelled the same way, but the results are the same.

Yeah so cosmos, it was a blunder.

It was questioned and questioned again.

Why do you want to continually throw it up in the face of our troops?

The Generals on the ground made the decision and it is their fault, not the troops.

I know the reason you keep bringing it up cosmos, your Radical Left is all about hate, hating America, hating anyone who doesn’t hold your opinion.

You are hate mongers.

——————————

Vietnam was entirely different.

The military of today has broad powers and leeway to do their duty.

They don’t have every stinking Congressman like in in the Vietnam era trying to run the war.

The Democrats want to repeat the mistakes of Vietnam by sticking their noses into operations they don’t understand and don’t support.

Support the Troops.

Support the Troops — BRING THEM HOME —

Tell Bush — It’s OVER!!

SolDevVB
Posted March 24, 2008 at 12:51 pm | Permalink

“Why would an Iraqi patrol a street and risk his life when an American will gladly do it for him? The Iraqis will never stand on their own while they have us as a crutch.”
—————————————————

My late grandmother used to say that if you keep tying a child’s shoes for him, he’ll never learn to tie his shoes.

Simple as that. The Iraqis will NEVER defend themselves. They know that with the likes of “Hundred Year McCain,” they’ll never have to.

WSC – there is the big difference of no draft. However there are also similarities – such as “We had to destroy Falluja in order to save it” … Iraqiization … hundreds of thousands of ARI … “when they stand up we will stand down” … “light at the end of the tunnel” …

There is a damned good reason that the military is under civilian command.
————–
It’s just not under your civilian command. Some one who has never served nor understands the military.

“It’s just not under your civilian command.”

Really? Who decides the mission, the scope of the mission and the objectives of the mission?

Civilians.

And I am one of them and my vote counts (except in Florida 2000) just as much as yours does.

If the military decided to invade Canada, would that be okay with the right wingers?

Regular-Cosmos: There are about 16,000 deserters in Canada seeking refugee status claiming their lives are in danger if they return to the US, according to an expose in the media last week. Being cared for mostly by social assistance programmes to which any refugee is entitled until the claim is processed, plus some 60’s “Nam” vets. They have no hope in getting to stay, and will be eventually deported because they volunteered to join the US service and were not dragooned/drafted. There is little sympathy hereabouts, especially when we see Maple Leaf Draped coffins coming home just about every week from Afganistan. Yes, see them. They are saluted by cops, firefighters and vets while other folks silently hold flags as the funeral procession leaves the airport receiving the bodies. We also see coffins being put aboard aircraft by their regimental brothers and sisters in Afganistan. The 60’s were another matter when it appeared that the poor or disenfranchised were drafted while lawmakers/rich/judges/upper class and the like made sure their kids stayed home. I think the Pres. and VP were two of them. Our PM, a Conservative, tried to forbid this practice, but the press just ignored him, besides he couldn’t stop the Governor General, our Chief of State, receiving each plane carrying of the fallen.

That’s interesting NN.

The U.S. has a volunteer army ,no draft.

And if there were that many deserters in Canada from the U.S., it would be headline news.

I call B.S.

Civilians appointed by the Commander-in-Chief…

Deal with it.

I didn’t bring 2000 and 2004 up, WSClark did, I replied.

Chas who doesn’t know Luby’s in Texas bus boy, is trying to make a comment, instead makes a fool of himself.

WHO brought it up?? You read much??

Regular
Posted March 24, 2008 at 5:02 pm | Permalink
Actually, the Civilians in the Department of Defense and the various services and the Commander in Chief (the President) decide.

Your voted counted in 2000 and 2004. Gore lost his home state and Kerry just lost.
=========================

{chortles}

Ya know what else?

WHILE we are reaping the consequences of imperialism, why don’t we see any damn benefits?

For our trillion plus dollars we ought to be getting something.

Why isn’t gasoline 14 cents a gallon? This crap defies reason.

JR — it IS 14 cents a gallon… the rest of the $$$ is going to Bush/Cheney/& mercenaries LOL

Let’s not get TOO presumptive on who the next Democratic President will be…

Sorry Jr = JR

“Kerry was “in by a landslide” last time.”

No they didn’t, and you know it. It is difficult to defeat an incumbent president – very few have lost – and Bush and his Smear Machine were able to Swift Boat Kerry because he tried the “above the fray” approach.

It was a 52-48 election and Kerry ran the worst campaign in modern history.

As a result, we have 3,000 more Americans and have spent an additional $1 trillion.

But, who is counting?

Democracy is by definition a system that cannot be imposed on a country by an occupying force; it has to be built by the people who will rule themselves.
We went to war with the expressed purpose of imposing a democratic system on Iraq, an impossibility from the start, and the people who sold us this war knew that. It has become obvious over the last five years that:
1. corporate profit has been a key motive for starting and continuing the war,
2. we will never succeed in pacifying the country as long as we occupy it. Our presence is a cause of fighting, not a solution.
3. We have succeeded in eliminating the past government and infrastructure (electricity, clean water, police and court system, etc.) and despite paying out multibillion-dollar no-bid contracts, almost nothing has been done to repair those losses.
We went to war on false pretences, so our duty to the Iraqi people is to rebuild what we destroyed and then get the hell out of the way while they sort out their own national destiny. It probably won’t be pretty, but it will be even less pretty to continue on our present course of a century or so of occupation and civil war.

Regular,
I have no idea regarding the number who have recently fled to Canada to avoid military service, but I still have friends there who left to avoid the Viet Nam- era draft, have built a life there and have no plans to return.

Reading all this makes me wonder what the left thinks is worth sending American soldiers to fight and possibly dies for? Here is a quiz. Anybody want to take a stab at it?

1. To prevent a stoppage of the flow of oil to the US?

2. To save a people group from genocide?

3. To preemptively eliminate a legitimate terrorist or military threat to the US?

4. To defend an ally from an attack?

5. To free a people from a brutal dictator?

6. To rescue American citizens in peril in a foreign country?

7. To enforce violation of an international agreement?

8. Mom, children and apple pie.

9. To eliminate a strategic threat (ie.. Cuban Missile crisis)

Are there other instances not included here where you would support military action?

I would say a legitimite reason to go to war is when the USA is being directly threatened or attacked or when one of our allies is being attacked and invaded…..none of which applys to Iraq.

“Reading all this makes me wonder what the left thinks is worth sending American soldiers to fight and possibly dies for?”

When there is a legitimate threat to the United States and the people of this country.

Not until.

“Saddam Hussein was ready and willing to attack his neighbors and control the region’s and most of the world’s oil.”

Oh, bullshit – even WITH weapons of mass destruction that WE supplied him, he could not defeat a third rate power like Iran.

He didn’t even control all of his own country.

He wasn’t even good enough to be a paper tiger.

He was a sick, old deluded toothless paper tiger with delusions of grandeur.

And we all told you that BEFORE the fact.

It’s a fact that Saddam’s infrastructure was starting to crumble (and psychologically so was he)and he was only concerned with the internal threats to his power.

heard an interview of a former newsman in iraq today, who now works in another country delivering groceries.

does he think all this bushshit has been worth it…

NO !!!

Is the Iraq war worth it? I wish more people agreed with this guy’s point. He’d like to apply an old-fashioned cost-benefit analysis to continued operations in Iraq, and so would I.

Given (what this extremely conservative author admits are) the staggering costs, are the benefits worth it? A clear-headed, Socratic discussion just might lead us all to a bit of unity. That’s the debate I’d like to see: a fair, unbiased best-case, worst-case, likely-case analysis accomplished and published widely and fairly before we elect our next president.

If we could all agree to use the same facts, I believe we’ll have gone a long way to finding a safe path for all Americans through the political minefield of debating the US’s place in Iraq’s future.

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2008/03/a_cost_benefit_analysis_of_ira.html

Well outlander took the time to post a little quiz.

Here are my answers.

1.No. We should evolve past our dependency on oil.

2. It depends. Darfur would to me seem a worthy cause. Bosnia too. In Iraq the limited genocide was the result of what can only hold that country together. That being a brutal dictator. And he was put in power AND given his weapons by US!

3. Again it depends. Clearly, a credible threat will HAVE to be better demonstrated in any future actions.

4. Which ally? One fully capable of defending itself? No.

5.US policy FREQUENTLY installs brutal dictators. We made Saddam Hussein. IF we are going to continue to interfere in other nations governments, maybe we should pick a creep and stick with him.

6. Generally, US citizens have ample warning to get out of a place before things get too bad. If some stay beyond a reasonably safe time to get out? Too bad on them.

7. That is what the UN is for.

8. This one is just stupid. Mom and apple pie are under more threat from Republicans and illegal immigrants than any foreign threat.

9. I cannot think of any strategic threat to the US that is anywhere NEAR as dangerous as outsourcing all our manufacture to China.

Any attempt to FORCE Democracy on another nation not presently having Democracy, would be a huge OXYMORON!! LOL

Which can’t be too soon!

This is just another prime example of what happens when you put a frat boy in charge, and a daddys boy at that. Long live frat boy leadership. Sieg Heil. Heil Frat Boy Bush.

There has been some kind of direct Skull and Bones connection to the White House, since 1980… Now, there is none!! Strange…

“I know the reason you keep bringing it up cosmos, your Radical Left is all about hate, hating America, hating anyone who doesn’t hold your opinion.”

the above post sounds like McCarthyism —

RepubliCONs are willing to support this war all the way up until actually paying for it.

Just charge it!

Cha-Ching!

LR posted March 24, 2008 at 9:35 pm

“the above post sounds like McCarthyism —”

Little jimmymac just cannot support his opinions with facts and logic.

So he instead uses false ad hominems (against the entire “Radical Left”), false fictional paragraphs, etc..

Can we sacrifice animals, I’ll sacrafice my dog and offer it up to Bush, “here ye godly Bush, I bestow upon thee holy mightiness the virgin blood of a german shepard to quench thy thirst of a merciless dog, I mean god.”

I was just saying, since I’m not really sacrificing anything like the service men and women are, besides tax dollars, maybe we should sacrifice our pets. Maybe they can send my dog in to an alqaeda camp with explosives on him, a suicide bomber dog, give them their own poison. Well, for dogs it wouldn’t really be suicide, never heard of a dog committing suicide.

“The men and women that are in combat overwhelmingly support the war.” Hank Price

The truth is reporters are hard pressed to find any soldier serving in Iraq (US or Iraqi) that prefers McCain for President. The soldiers have spoken with their donations having donated heavily to anti-war candidates like Ron Paul and Barack Obama.

http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/story?id=3601542

But all you pro-war Republicans should pat yourselves on the back. You guys managed to get more Americans killed than some Saudis with boxcutters.

BTW, I apologize for my typos.

Outlander asks with those sorrowfull Brit Hume eyes, “for what would Libs ever support a war?”

Hey, dumbass. We don’t have a bit of problem with fighting Al Qaeda in Afghanistan.

———–

Awesome! Once again Capn, you’ve shown that when it comes to substance, well, insults are all you got.

Give me my money!

America is worth fighting for JR. She is not without flaws but you know why? Because people are involved. But don’t overreact and kick her to the curb because of people who mess up. Just try to make her better and realize that you are surrounded by freedoms and opportunity unmatched anywhere in God’s green earth.

Agreed, Phantom.

Totally agree.

Outie,
Re: Quiz.
On #2, I assume you’re referring to the Kurds. Yes, prtecting people from Genocide is a rational reason tho go to war. We protected the Kurds from Saddam, sure, but our government has too many interests in Turkey to actively prevent the Turks (whose track record on genocide is more than a bit stained) from massacring them, so that question is moot. We’ve also done nothing for Darfur or Rwanda to prevent genocide.
On #4, Kuwait has been a thorn in the side of Iraq for a long time, and then Saddam caught them drilling slanted wells on the Iraqi border and taking Iraqi oil. Our diplomats in the area knew about the invasion ahead of time and basically gave Saddam a green light. When the invasion hit the media, the state department reversed the area diplomats and went to the aid of Kuwait, which was probably the right thing to do at the time, but might have been avoided in the first place by taking a strong stand against an invasion and for a negotiated settlement on the wells.
on #8, Moms don’t make apple pies anymore, they buy them frozen from Mrs. Smith. I’m the only person I know who makes apple pies from scratch, and I haven’t made them often lately.

“I must say, I’m a little envious,” Bush said. “If I were slightly younger and not employed here, I think it would be a fantastic experience to be on the front lines of helping this young democracy succeed.”

“It must be exciting for you … in some ways romantic, in some ways, you know, confronting danger. You’re really making history, and thanks,” Bush said.

While on tank patrol through the narrow streets of Abu Ghraib, just west of Baghdad, Pfc. Clifton Hicks was given an order. Abu Ghraib had become a “free-fire zone,” Hicks was told, and no “friendlies” or civilians remained in the area. “Game on. All weapons free,” his captain said. Upon that command, Hicks’s unit opened a furious fusillade, firing wildly into cars, at people scurrying for cover, at anything that moved. Sent in to survey the damage, Hicks found the area littered with human and animal corpses, including women and children, but he saw no military gear or weapons of any kind near the bodies. In the aftermath of the massacre, Hicks was told that his unit had killed 700-800 “enemy combatants.” But he knew the dead were not terrorists or insurgents; they were innocent Iraqis. “I will agree to swear to that till the day I die,” he said. “I didn’t see one enemy on that operation.”

Winter Soldier II

“But it’s wrong to fight them in Iraq?”

They weren’t in Iraq BEFORE we invaded.

“But it’s wrong to fight them in Iraq?”

rfl seems to believe that the best way to weaken a terrorist group is by recruiting new members into that group, and making their group bigger, and stronger.

Yeah right cosmos, only in a warped mind like yours can you compare a claim of 700 deaths of civilians in Iraq and compare it to a posted opinion on a blog.

Besides everyone knows that the Sierra Club are know liars and fabricators of false facts, it’s the way they do business with dishonesty.

(chortles)

jimmymac,

How many people died in New Orleans due to the levee failures?

The levee failures were not caused by the Sierra Club.

The Sierra club is filled with liars.

“How many people died in New Orleans due to the levee failures?”

The Bush administration diverted funds from the Army Corps of Engineers to Homeland (?) Security.

jimmymac posted March 25, 2008 at 11:06 pm

“The Sierra Club killed an entire city.”

Welcome to jimmymac’s fantasy world…!

The U.S. Army Corps of Engineers basically admitted that the system that they designed and built failed due to engineering, and construction flaws.

The U.S. Army Corps of Engineers did not even mention the Sierra Club, because the Sierra Club was not a factor.

“cosmos is just too easy…”

He kicks your ass every day on the Blog and you call him EASY?

Now that’s funny!

(chortles)

(pukes)

(laughs)

(chortles)

“only in a nut job mind think that can happen on a blog…”

Meds wearing off, McCluer………………..

(chortles)

(upchucks)

(smirks)

Bullshit, huh? Well, I agree, it’s bullshit. Here, have some more.

Hicks soberly recounted this bloody incident to a packed auditorium in Silver Spring, Maryland, as part of Winter Soldier: Iraq and Afghanistan, a summit hosted March 13-16 by Iraq Veterans Against the War (IVAW). Modeled after the 1971
Winter Soldier Investigation–in which Vietnam veterans, including John Kerry, testified in Detroit about US atrocities in Vietnam–this incarnation featured more than fifty veterans and active-duty service members testifying about engaging in or witnessing atrocities and war crimes against Iraqi and Afghan civilians. As a precondition for participation, IVAW required veterans to provide corroborating evidence such as photographs, videos and additional witnesses. Former marine Scott Camil, 61, who spoke at the first Winter Soldier event, attended the conference along with seven fellow Vietnam-era witnesses. “When we came home, the World War II and Korean War veterans did not support our activities. I know how that feels,” Camil said quietly. “We’re not going to let it happen to these guys.”

Soldiers and marines at Winter Soldier described the frustration of routinely raiding the wrong homes and arresting the wrong people. It was common for unarmed Iraqis to be killed at US checkpoints or by US convoys, they said. Many said they were congratulated on their “first kill.” Some even desecrated Iraqi corpses. Spc. Hart Viges said he refused to pose in a photograph with a corpse when his fellow soldiers prodded him. “I said no–not in the context of, That’s really wrong on an ethical basis,” he said. “I said no because it wasn’t my kill. You shouldn’t take trophies for things you didn’t kill. That’s where my mind-set was back then.”

Several veterans said it was common to carry a stash of extra automatic weapons and shovels to plant near the bodies of unarmed civilians they had killed to make it look as if they were combatants. Others described the surreal sensation of committing cold-blooded murder without facing any consequences. Jon Michael Turner, who served as a machine gunner with Kilo Company, Third Battalion, Eighth Marines, said he shot an unarmed Iraqi in front of the man’s father and friend. “The first round didn’t kill him, after I had hit him up here in his neck area. And afterwards he started screaming and looked right into my eyes. So I looked at my friend…and I said, ‘Well, I can’t let that happen.’ So I took another shot and took him out. He was then carried away by the rest of his family.” Later, Turner pointed to a tattoo on his right wrist of the Arabic words for “f___ you.” “That was my choking hand,” he explained. “And any time I felt the need to take out aggression, I would go ahead and use it.”

“This is not an isolated incident,” the testifiers uttered over and over, to the point of liturgy, insisting that the atrocities they committed or witnessed were common. The hearings were not organized to point fingers at “bad apples” or even particular squads, several testifiers said.

IVAW issued an impassioned statement that condemned not only US military tactics but the occupation itself. “The military is being asked to win an occupation,” the statement read. “The troops on the ground know this is an impossible task…. We have a political problem that cannot be solved with a military solution. This is not a war that can be won. It is an occupation that can only be ended.”

While the Winter Soldiers offered a searing critique of the military’s treatment of civilians, which they described as alternately inhumane and sadistic, they also empathized with fellow soldiers thrust into a chaotic urban theater where the lines between combatants and civilians are blurred. “It’s criminal to put such patriotic Americans…in a situation where their morals are at odds with their survival instincts,” said Adam Kokesh, who served as a Marine sergeant in the raid on Fallujah in 2004.

For active-duty soldiers and veterans, testifying about combat duty carries new risks–including the possibility of being charged in military court for complicity in war crimes or in federal court under the War Crimes Act of 1996. But such concerns were not enough to silence their voices. “If it’s a choice between sitting in cowardice and not speaking up against things that are wrong or being court-martialed, I’ll take the court-martial,” said Selena Coppa, 25, an active-duty military intelligence sergeant and one of several women who spoke at the hearings.

During the last day, photographs of nameless Iraqi dead flashed on large screens. Army Sgt. Kristofer Goldsmith took the photos on May 15, 2005, a day he remembered as “very hot, uncomfortable and miserable.” Goldsmith was ordered to photograph a dozen Iraqis who were presumably murdered and dumped in a large landfill. But the photos were not taken to identify the dead or assist the Iraqi police investigation. “They were used for morale purposes,” Goldsmith remarked bitterly. “[Soldiers] bombarded me to copy my pictures. They made videos of them to send home to their friends and families to brag, ‘This is war. This is what we did to the Iraqis.’”

The Winter Soldier hearings also featured Iraqi testifiers like Salam Talib, a 33-year-old computer engineering student. Though Talib said he was encouraged to see so many US veterans describing their experiences in frank terms, the testimonies were not much of a revelation for him. “What the American soldiers are talking about is everyday life for Iraqis. They’re not even talking about 10 percent of what’s happening there,” Talib remarked with a shrug. “They are simply giving credibility to the stories that have been told over and over from Iraq by journalists, Iraqis and humanitarian organizations. The American soldiers are saying, ‘We’re here, we did it and it’s true.’ “