“When someone is beating you over the head with a hammer, don’t sit there and take it. Take out a meat cleaver and cut off their hand.†— Bill Clinton, in 1981
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100 Comments
Sounds like wise advice to me. Personally, I’d recommend a nice Taurus 9-mm rather than a blade. Makes a great gift.
;-)
Too bad John Kerry didn’t take that advice. If he had, he would be President Kerry as opposed to Swiftboat Kerry.
My favorite quote from the referenced story:
“An Arkansas state legislator once said of Bill Clinton that he would pat you on the back while he urinated down your leg.”
(chortles)
wow, Bill’s rosacea is flaring up, look how red his face is.
Kev
Let me fix that for you.
“Too bad John Kerry wasnt such a two faced backstabbing liar. If he hadnt been he would be President Kerry as opposed to liar Kerry.”
That’s more accurate.
Your welcome.
Kev
Sorry, I forgot to mention Treasonous as well.
Enjoy your retirement, Bill.
Maybe you can work for Habitat for Humanity, or remind people to get their pets spayed and neutered.
And why do your donors to your library have to be such a big secret?
Capn, you really really sound like a republicon.
Is this what Obama does to you?
While Barack may understand the audacity of hope, only Hillary really gets the audacity of audacity.
Kerry is more of a war hero than McCain.
McCains “heroics” consist of being a failed fighter pilot, but a succesful P.O.W.
Still, I couldn’t hold a candle to either one of these extraordinary guys.
Neither could all the chronic complainers here.
Same goes for all three of the frontrunners.
All extraordinary Americans.
Hanging out here and talking trash on fine American patriots is hardly the same as supporting YOUR candidate.
Ummm.. Tracy, I liked your “audacity of audacity” comment on the other thread. But you got carried away with the audaciousness. You can’t be serious about your John Kerry vs John McCain comments. Did you know that McCain would have been released by his Vietnamese captors but refused because he knew they would use it for propaganda? This from Wikipedia:
“John McCain’s capture and imprisonment began on October 26, 1967. He was flying his twenty-third bombing mission over North Vietnam, when his A-4E Skyhawk was shot down by a Soviet-made SA-2 anti-aircraft missile over Hanoi.[32][33][34][35] McCain fractured both arms and a leg,[36] and then nearly drowned when he parachuted into Truc Bach Lake in Hanoi.[32] After he regained consciousness, a mob gathered around, spat on him, kicked him, and stripped him of his clothes.[37] Others crushed his shoulder with the butt of a rifle and bayoneted him in his left foot and abdominal area; he was then transported to Hanoi’s main Hoa Loa Prison, nicknamed the “Hanoi Hilton” by American POWs.[37][38]
Although McCain was badly wounded, his captors refused to give him medical care unless he gave them military information, beating and interrogating him.[37] Only when the North Vietnamese discovered that his father was a top admiral did they give him medical care[37] and announced his capture. His status as a POW made the front pages of The New York Times[39] and The Washington Post.[40]
McCain spent six weeks in the Hoa Loa hospital, receiving marginal care.[32] Now having lost 50 pounds, in a chest cast, and with his hair turned white,[32] McCain was sent to a different camp on the outskirts of Hanoi[41] in December 1967, into a cell with two other Americans who did not expect him to live a week; they nursed McCain and kept him alive.[42] In March 1968, McCain was put into solitary confinement, where he would remain for two years.[37]
In July 1968, McCain’s father was named commander of all U.S. forces in the Vietnam theater.[2] McCain was immediately offered a chance to return home early:[32] The North Vietnamese wanted a worldwide propaganda coup by appearing merciful, and also wanted to show other POWs that elites like McCain were willing to be treated preferentially.[37] McCain turned down the offer of repatriation; he would only accept the offer if every man taken in before him was released as well.[43] McCain’s refusal to be released was even remarked upon by North Vietnamese senior negotiator Le Duc Tho to U.S. envoy Averell Harriman during the ongoing Paris Peace Talks.[44]
In August of 1968, a program of severe torture methods began on McCain, using rope bindings into painful positions, and beatings every two hours, at the same time as he was suffering from dysentery.[37][32] McCain made an anti-American propaganda “confession” that said he was a “black criminal” and an “air pirate”.[32] He has always felt that his statement was dishonorable,[45] but as he would later write, “I had learned what we all learned over there: Every man has his breaking point. I had reached mine.”[37] His injuries left him permanently incapable of raising his arms above his head.[46] He subsequently received two to three beatings per week because of his continued refusal to sign additional statements.[47] Other American POWs were similarly tortured and maltreated in order to extract “confessions”,[37] with many enduring even worse treatment than McCain.[48]
McCain refused to meet with various anti-war peace groups coming to Hanoi, not wanting to give either them or the North Vietnamese a propaganda victory based on his connection to his father.[37] From late 1969 on, treatment of McCain and some of the other POWs became more tolerable after disclosures to the world press of the conditions to which they were being subjected.[37] McCain and other prisoners were moved around to different camps at times, and later cheered the B-52-led U.S. “Christmas Bombing” campaign of December 1972 as a forceful measure to force North Vietnam to terms.[37][49]
Altogether, McCain was held as a prisoner of war in North Vietnam for five and a half years. The Paris Peace Accords were signed on January 27, 1973, ending direct U.S. involvement in the war, but the Operation Homecoming arrangements for POWs took longer; McCain was finally released from captivity on March 15, 1973.[50]“
“outlander” –
McCain broke under torture and confessed on film that he was a war criminal and “air pirate.”
Democratic operatives have copies of the footage and could swift boat McCain just as what was done to Kerry in 2004, but we won’t. Because it’s wrong. It’e evidence that torture doesn’t work; people will break and confess to anything given enough abuse. (Unless, of course, all you pro-torture want to assert that the Hanoi Hilton hosts finally got the truth out of McCain back in 1968… Do you?)
A strict reading of the law would make McCain’s “confession” clear and obvious evidence of “aiding and abetting the enemy.”
Will the Democrats play that card? No. Because it’s wrong, it’s a lie, it’s beneath contempt.
Ah, but might the evangelicals and neo-cons (think Limbaugh, Coulter, and others who say they’d vote for Senator Clinton before they’d vote for McCain) choose to run that Hanoi Hilton footage and portray McCain as a traitor? The odds are better.
Because if the “Maveric” gets control of the Republic Party, the ultra-Cons will lose it. In more ways than one.
Traitor, my ass.
Is there any level, Monkkkeyhawkkk, to which you wouldn’t stoop in a pathetic effort at making a political point?
Bring on the footage. The reason they won’t is because it would blow up in their face. Big Time.
Ummmm Outlander…. Monkey said that it WONT be done by the democrats… Because all of that crap about McCain would be a LIE… You know, like what happened to Kerry??
Thanks Chas for straightening me out on that.
And my comment was that truth and fairness is not among the reasons that the Dems wouldn’t dare go there.
You really aren’t that bright, are you, “outlander?”
It is also worth noting, as to McCain:
He was hit, in his fighter jet, yet STILL dropped his payload on his target, knowing that he was about to crash..
This stubborn, heroic act probably contributed greatly to his injuries, as, by the time he hit the “ejector seat” button, his jet had gone into a violent spin.
—–
By the way, John Kerry, more than likely, received a Dishonorable Discharge or Less than Honorable Discharge.
Simply type John Kerry DD-214 into your browser, to see how his records are really screwed up.
Also type “John Kerry Secretary Claytor” into your browser.
Why was the Navy Secretary, under JIMMY CARTER, involved in the discharge paperwork of John Kerry?
Kerry should have left the service under Nixon or Ford, depending on Reserve Duty. Instead, it appears that Kerry’s DD-214, published on his website, contained an altered document (perhaps leagally altered, but it contains an error, there is no such thing as a “Silver Star with a Combat V”) It also appears that Kerry’s original discharge, from the Naval Reserves, was less than Honorable and was later revised under the Jimmy Carter Amnesty Program.
http://beldar.blogs.com/beldarblog/2004/10/was_kerrys_orig.html
That is another issue. Where did Kerry report for Reserve Duty?
There is NO record, at all, anywhere.
Kerry will not release his complete military record. When you move from Active Duty to Reserve Duty, you get two sets of discharge papers. However, there are SEVERAL disputed dates for Kerry’s various discharge(s).
The COWARDICE of John Kerry is that he would not be himself, during the campaign.
If Kerry had run as a “Vietnam Veteran Against the War” instead of running as a “War Hero” — we might have a “President Kerry”!!!
That is excellent advice from Bill Clinton.
I wish he had exercised it on Newt Gingrich and the Republican congress instead of trying to work with them.
It may be something we are going to have to consider as to Obama supporters. If they continue to try and force that Republican apologist and sympathizer on us.
George W. Bush has NO DD-214. All copies are “lost”.
RD
George W. Bush was in the Texas Air National Guard.
He flew active duty missions, on Combat Air Patrol, looking for Soviet bombers.
The service records are a bit different, for the Guard.
“He flew active duty missions, on Combat Air Patrol, looking for Soviet bombers.”
Thank God we had George back then to protect us.
By the way, Rossell, HOW did George W Bush get INTO the TANG?
Off the subject, but I saw Bill on TV the other day and he’s definately had a face lift. He looks a lot better. For awhile he was looking pretty haggard after losing all that weight.
Oh THIS is too much!
“George W. Bush was in the Texas Air National Guard.
He flew active duty missions, on Combat Air Patrol, looking for Soviet bombers.”
Over TEXAS? Over ALABAMA?
Huh.
I guess that was the basis of how he learned to look for weapons of mass destruction?
JR
If you knew anything at all about the subject, you would know that, during the cold war, Soviet Aircraft frequently tested our airspace.
And yes, America won the cold war because of people like George Bush, and millions of others, who served their country, in uniform, during that time.
And,
Notice all,
Nobody on this threat wants to challenge my statement that John Kerry probably got his discharge upgraded by Jimmy Carter!
He flew active duty missions, on Combat Air Patrol, looking for Soviet bombers.
Wait a sec, Econ. Bush flew training flights. F-102 overseas units were de-activated in June 1970, 10 days AFTER Bush finished his training. So just how many active duty missions did he fly? He had 300 flight hours and requested a three-month temp rotation in Vietnam, but the required training was 500 hours, and he was denied.
He then had remedial training. He skipped his mandatory physical in mid-1972. He was discharged from inactive reserve, five years after completing flight school.
And somewhere in that time he was flying “active duty missions, on Combat Air Patrol, looking for Soviet bombers”?
Riiiight…
The service records are a bit different, for the Guard.
No sh!t, Sherlock?
Gotcha!
First
Ben Barnes, a DEMOCRAT and former speaker of the Texas House said HE recommended George W. Bush for a TANG position, and that no other Bush family member was involved in that request.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/aponline/19990927/aponline190140_000.htm
“Nobody on this threat wants to challenge my statement that John Kerry probably got his discharge upgraded by Jimmy Carter!”
Another Recon lie – no basis in fact – probably doesn’t count as proof.
“Ben Barnes, a DEMOCRAT and former speaker of the Texas House said HE recommended George W. Bush for a TANG position, and that no other Bush family member was involved in that request.”
Bullshit.
Secondly, Bush did fly Combat Air Patrol missions, in his TANG unit, and members of that very unit did serve in Vietnam at the time Bush joining that unit:
“One of the primary ANG units to receive the F-102 was the 111th Fighter Interceptor Squadron (FIS) at Ellington Air National Guard Station, which operated the aircraft from 1960 through 1974. These planes were given responsibility for patrolling the Texas Gulf Coast and intercepting Soviet aircraft based in Cuba that regularly flew off the US shore to test American defenses. The 111th was and still is part of the 147th Fighter Wing in Houston, Texas. It was here that George W. Bush was stationed following his enlistment in May 1968. —–
The Air National Guard has often been ridiculed as a safe place for military duty during the Vietnam War. However, pilots from the 147th Fighter Interceptor Group, as it was called at the time, were actually conducting combat missions in Vietnam when Bush enlisted. Air Force F-102 squadrons had been stationed in Thailand since 1961 and South Vietnam since March 1962. It was during this time that the Kennedy administration began building up a large US military presence in the region as a deterrent against North Vietnamese invasion.”
http://www.aerospaceweb.org/question/history/q0185.shtml
RD
YOU LOST THIS ONE, and those who flew with Bush say that you are “full of it”:
“Did Bush really fly jet fighters?
Not only did he routinely go up in the birds in the early 1970s to help guard the Gulf coast, he participated in NORAD training exercises in Canada, says Roome, who flew several missions with Bush.
“He and I went up as a two ship (team) to North Bay, Ontario, from Ellington. We went up the central United States,” he told WorldNetDaily. “He led the first leg, and I led the second. Our second leg was low ceilings at night. We were in formation, and we landed and spent a week up there flying with the Canadians as part of a NORAD exercise” involving possible nuclear attack by Soviet bombers.
Roome says he frequently was paired with Bush.
“We flew a lot of night missions. We flew in weather together,” he said. “Our stock-and-trade was formation (flying). We deployed in elements of two, and we’d have to target in the stratosphere, where we had to snap up to (the target) up above 40,000 feet, or we might have one in the weeds, where we’d have to go down and shadow (it).”
As a wingman, Bush tucked in closely and flew smoothly, he says.
“He was one of my favorite people to ride formation with, because he was smooth. He was a very competent pilot,” Roome said. “You sort of bet your life on each other in some of those formation missions, and to me it was always a pleasure to fly with George. He was good.”
Bush, who logged more than 625 hours in the cockpit, ranked in the top 10 percent of his squadron, according to his performance evaluations.”
http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=37162
RD
This is a webpage that the “wingmen” who served with Bush created:
http://www.wingmenforbush.com/
See just part of what they have to say:
“6. George W. Bush served for almost two years on active duty.
Bush was no “weekend warrior” by any means. His first two years of enlistment in the Air National Guard involved full-time, active duty service. This included basic training (6 weeks), USAF flight training (1 year), survival training (2 weeks), combat crew training (6+ months) and local checkout (3 months).
Facts, those pesky old facts………..
“GW in the Texas National Guard The Washington Post reports that Bush joined the National Guard 12 days before his student deferment would have expired, and that in spite of his low score on the pilot’s aptitude test (25, the lowest score allowed), and in spite of the waiting list that some kids spent years on, Bush was sworn in as an airman the day he applied.”
http://www.hereinreality.com/commander.html
And………………
“I would describe it as preferential treatment. There were hundreds of names on the list of people wanting to get into the Air National Guard or the Army National Guard,” says Barnes. “I think that would have been a preference to anybody that didn’t want to go to Vietnam or didn’t want to leave. We had a lot of young men that left and went to Canada in the ’60s and fled this country. But those that could get in the Reserves, or those that could get in the National Guard – chances are they would not have to go to Vietnam.”
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/09/08/60II/main641984.shtml
I was of draft age during the Viet Nam era – EVERONE knew that you were certain to avoid combat if you were in the Guard, but those posts were impossible to get if you didn’t KNOW someone.
“he told WorldNetDaily.”
World Net Daily – they sell $0.28 pills to “cure” heart disease………………..
Sort of a right wing version of the National Inquirer.
Rossell, how about some DOCUMENTED cases where Soviet bombers overflew the Texas air space?
”
The Wingmen Assert the Following:
1. Bush enlisted in the ANG knowing that he and his unit could be sent to Vietnam.
Critics and opponents of George W. Bush have accused him and others of “hiding” in the Air National Guard (ANG) to avoid service in Vietnam. Such an accusation is invalid. If the ANG was a “haven” from the war, tell that to the New Mexico ANG, the Colorado ANG, the Iowa ANG, and the New York ANG. These states sent F-100 fighter-bomber squadrons to fight in Vietnam during the spring of 1968; simultaneously, Bush, then a student at Yale, took the Air Force tests to enlist in his state’s ANG.
2. Bush did not need, nor did he receive family intervention to gain admission to the ANG. An athlete with a degree from Yale, Bush was physically and intellectually qualified for ANG pilot duty. In enlistment tests he scored 95% in “officer quality,” 50% in “navigator” aptitude and 25% in “pilot” aptitude. ANG Commander Col. Walter B. Staudt also interviewed Bush in person. Bush’s critics have accused him of having “jumped ahead” of 150 applicants on a “waiting list” to join the ANG. Such an accusation is incorrect. In any ANG group, maintenance and administrative personnel made up the bulk of the unit and, as applicants, made up the bulk of any “waiting list.” According to Lt. Col. Campenni, “There may have been 150 or more applicants for all positions in Lt. Bush’s unit. For pilot slots, however, the pool was much smaller, probably never more than 10, because of the stringent physical and educational criteria.” In his autobiography, Bush cited another unique requirement of the pilot slots, “There were several openings, I was told, because many people who wanted to go into the Guard were unwilling to spend the almost two years of full-time duty required for pilot training.”
3. Bush fulfilled his drill requirements in Alabama, at Dannelly Air Force Base.
During his 5th year as a Guardsman, from May 1972 – May 1973, Bush was permitted to drill with the ANG in Alabama while he worked on a family friend’s political campaign. There, Bush served with the 187th Tactical Reconnaissance Group at Dannelly ANG Base, near Montgomery, Alabama.
It is this period of Bush’s service that his critics accuse him of having gone “AWOL” or of having been a “deserter” from his Alabama duties. At his expense, Bush’s critics have ignored ANG documentation and witnesses that confirm his Alabama service. In doing so, Bush’s critics have created a controversy based on fraud, as they extort known falsehoods to deride Bush’s credibility in this election season. The true story of Bush’s Alabama service is as follows . . .
4. Bush earned his officer’s commission.
Those unfamiliar with Air Force protocol accuse Bush of receiving “special preference” when he received a direct commission to 2nd Lieutenant, prior to flight training. Lt. Col. William Campenni, who served with Bush, explained: “The direct commission was the normal procedure for those selected for a pilot slot. Every pilot candidate got one. I did, too. It was contingent upon completion of the yearlong pilot training. If you washed out, you reverted to enlisted status.” While at least 25% of Bush’s Undergraduate Pilot Training class washed-out, or did not complete the program, Bush did so and graduated at the respectable rank of 22 in a class of 53 high achievers.
5. Following basic training, Bush was open to overseas service but was not yet fully trained or permitted to go overseas.
Bush has been accused of trying to avoid Vietnam service when he indicated on a form, “Does not volunteer for overseas service,” prior to reporting to undergraduate pilot training. Col. Bill Campenni explains that such an answer was required: “A non-issue. The form that this canard references is AF Form 125, Application for Extended Active Duty (EAD). It is a required form for every Air Force officer’s personnel folder. However, it does not apply to reservists and guardsman unless and until ordered to extended active duty. Most guardsmen, like Lt. Bush and me, were told by personnel clerks to check off the “not volunteer” block because it was meaningless. We had to fill out the form to go to pilot training because that year was EAD (Extended Active Duty). But all the training bases were in the United States, so the election had no effect. In the Guard, you are the property of that unit and that state. You aren’t going anywhere except where your unit goes.” Those who served with Bush attest to the fact that he was ready and willing to serve overseas, in fact, he was eager to test his skills as a fighter pilot.
6. George W. Bush served for almost two years on active duty.
Bush was no “weekend warrior” by any means. His first two years of enlistment in the Air National Guard involved full-time, active duty service. This included basic training (6 weeks), USAF flight training (1 year), survival training (2 weeks), combat crew training (6+ months) and local checkout (3 months).
For 53 weeks during his 1968-1969 Undergraduate Pilot Training, Bush served in the same schools and under the same demanding instructors as regular Air Force officers. As a member of Class 70-04, he endured a grueling combination of academics, officer training (leadership), and flight training. He was the only Air National Guard pilot in a class of Air Force high achievers. He earned his pilot rating, his wings, and his commission. Bush next performed additional active duty training to become qualified in the F-102 weapons system, which was at a joint USAF/ANG training school at Ellington AFB, Texas. He also performed additional active duty by sitting runway alert under North American Air Defense (NORAD) command. This service was no different than the fighters flying over our cities since 9/11.
7. George W. Bush volunteered to serve in Vietnam following his flight training.
After his training at Moody AFB and Ellington ANG Base, George W. Bush and his fellow aviator Fred Bradley, sought service in Vietnam. In an article for the National Review, author Jed Babbin wrote that Bush and Bradley, “Both were junior lieutenants without a lot of flying experience. But the inexperience didn’t prevent Bush — along with Bradley — from going to their squadron leaders to see if they could get into a program called ‘Palace Alert.’ ‘There were four of us lieutenants at the time, and we were all fairly close. Two of them had more flight time than the president and me, said Bradley.’ All four volunteered for Vietnam (Bradley doesn’t remember whether he and Bush actually signed paperwork, but he specifically remembers both Bush and himself trying to get into the Palace Alert Vietnam program.) Bush and Bradley were turned away, and the two more senior pilots went to Vietnam.”
So, Rossell, if Bush was so gung ho about serving in Viet Nam, why didn’t he just join the Air Force?
All Guardsmen had the option of going to active duty, so why didn’t he JUST DO IT?
Why did he mess around with a TANG unit when he could have just joined the ral thing?
WS
You are really not very bright to make such requests.
It happened all the time.
In fact, some are complaining about Russian aircraft testing our airspace TODAY, as they used to do during the cold war!
http://www.cnn.com/2008/US/02/11/russian.bomber/index.html
Scroll down, on the above link, to see where Russia is violating Alaskan airspace.
It happened all the time in the Gulf Coast.
WS, you really arent up on history if you do not understand all of the tensions back then.
JFK and the Cuban Missle Crisis, then we fight the Vietnam War with a Soviet client state, allied with North Vietnam, off of the Florida Coast?
What next?
Will you ask me to post a link that the sky is blue, or that the sun will come up in the morning?
What I am saying is standard, accepted history:
Soviet Airplanes routinely challenged US Airspace during the Cold War!
WS
Bush trained with the Air Force. Bush flew with the Air Force. Bush volunteered for duty in Vietnam.
Read my post.
You hate Bush.
I get that.
But you can not make up your own facts!
WS
Again, from the “wingmen for bush” Web page:
“. George W. Bush volunteered to serve in Vietnam following his flight training.
After his training at Moody AFB and Ellington ANG Base, George W. Bush and his fellow aviator Fred Bradley, sought service in Vietnam. In an article for the National Review, author Jed Babbin wrote that Bush and Bradley, “Both were junior lieutenants without a lot of flying experience. But the inexperience didn’t prevent Bush — along with Bradley — from going to their squadron leaders to see if they could get into a program called ‘Palace Alert.’ ‘There were four of us lieutenants at the time, and we were all fairly close. Two of them had more flight time than the president and me, said Bradley.’ All four volunteered for Vietnam (Bradley doesn’t remember whether he and Bush actually signed paperwork, but he specifically remembers both Bush and himself trying to get into the Palace Alert Vietnam program.) Bush and Bradley were turned away, and the two more senior pilots went to Vietnam.”
And, WS, you are flat wrong.
You have stated something that is not true:
WSClark
Posted March 9, 2008 at 8:43 pm | Permalink
So, Rossell, if Bush was so gung ho about serving in Viet Nam, why didn’t he just join the Air Force?
All Guardsmen had the option of going to active duty, so why didn’t he JUST DO IT?
Why did he mess around with a TANG unit when he could have just joined the ral thing?
—–
Going the Air Force route, directly, might not have worked for Bush. There were openings in the TANG, and Bush wanted to fly! Also, Bush went through Air Force Training and then Bush volunteered for service in Vietnam. They took two of his unit, two men who had more flight time, and experience, than Bush, for the “Palace Guard” missions.
“It happened all the time”
Show documentation for just ONE incident.
“Bush flew with the Air Force. Bush volunteered for duty in Vietnam.”
Show documentation from something other than Swiftboat Veterans – Wingmen for Bush.
“But you can not make up your own facts!”
Then show some documented facts from something other than a website DEVOTED to George W Bush.
If all that stuff is true, why hasn’t the MSM been able to find evidence?
“Going the Air Force route, directly, might not have worked for Bush”
Why?
Notice, fellow Bloggers:
Nobody can deny the fact that John Kerry probably got his “Dishonorable” or “Less than Honorable” discharge upgraded under the Carter Amnesty Program.
John Kerry was still in the Navy Reserves when he protested against the Vietnam War.
John Kerry was still in the Navy Reserves when he met with a foreign enemy, without the permission of his government.
Both actions were illegal.
John Kerry has never released his full military record. He was probably dishonorably discharged from the Naval Reserve for his illegal activity.
All the liberals can do is attack Bush!
They seem to know that I am right, when it comes to Kerry!
WS
Because pilot training slots are hard to come by. You don’t get to fly expensive jets just because you want to.
The fact is, Bush was in flight training very quickly, after signing up.
The process could easily have taken more time, in the regular Air Force.
WS
Buzzing airspace to test air defenses was a common cold war practice.
You are ignorant of history, completely, if you do not understand this point.
What does the word “tradition” mean to you?
“It was always the tradition of our long-range aviation to fly far into the ocean, to meet (US) aircraft carriers and greet (US) pilots visually,” Maj Gen Pavel Androsov, the head of long-range aviation in the Russian air force, told a press conference in Moscow.
“Yesterday we revived this tradition.”
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2007/08/09/wrussia109.xml
“He was probably dishonorably discharged from the Naval Reserve for his illegal activity.”
You have zero proof of that, Rossell. And when Kerry met with the North Vietnamese, he was part of a congressional delegation – a fact that you choose to omit – he was not a private citizen.
“Because pilot training slots are hard to come by”
If he was so gung ho, why didn’t he volunteer for the grunt troops – you know – the ones that got blown to pieces so Ivy Leaguer like Bush could keep his sorry ass safe?
“Yesterday we revived this tradition.”
Show ONE documented case where the Soviets invaded US air space over Texas.
Just one.
WS
You are mentioning the WRONG meetiong.
Kerry met with the North Vietnamese Communists, in Paris France, while he was still in the Navy Reserves:
http://beldar.blogs.com/beldarblog/2004/10/was_kerrys_orig.html
Why was Navy Secretary Claytor involved in Kerry’s discharge? Claytor was the Navy Secretary under JIMMY CARTER!
http://www.nysun.com/article/3107
WS
As I recall, John McCain was shot down, as a PILOT!
A large number of POW’s are pilots. It is easier to get captured, as a pilot, as you are often far into enemy territory, if shot down.
And, this is the illegal meeting that John Kerry went to, on foreign soil, to meet with an enemy of the United States, while Kerry was still in the Naval Reserves:
http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=40823
Said meeting, and other anti-war activities, probably earned Kerry a Dishonorable or Less than Honorable Discharge.
Proof?
You explain WHY Navy Secretary Claytor would be involved in Kerry’s disharge, under the Carter Administration?
You explain why Kerry has NEVER released his full military record.
YOU explain why Secretary Claytor referenced the exact Regulations and Review Board necessary, to upgrade Kerry’s discharge, in his letter? There was no other purpose, for the proceedure that Claytor references, other than to upgrade a discharge.
“As I recall, John McCain was shot down, as a PILOT!”
I don’t recall McCain being an issue in this debate – John was a Navy officer and pilot – Bush was a TANG funky.
Second, World Net Daily does not COUNT as a reputable news source…………..
Neither does the N Y Sun………………
“probably”
Probably doesn’t count – how about some REAL facts?
How about a satellite photo of Soviet military airplanes, on the Ground, in Cuba, and the same or similar Soviet aircraft being intercepted by US Military Aircraft?
http://www.acig.org/artman/publish/printer_393.shtml
WS
Tell Kerry to RELEASE his military records.
John Kerry is the only candidate for national office, in the HISTORY of the United States, who has refused to release his full military record.
Why?
It is a fact that the Carter Administration ordered a special review board, for Kerry’s benefit. That is a recorded fact.
What in the heck did they “review”??
The ONLY purpose for such a military panel would be to upgrade a discharge, under the Carter Amnesty Program.
—-
George W. Bush was NO flunky.
ANG pilots are as good as any Air Force pilot. They train together. Many ANG pilots have died in combat. Many ANG pilots have died in training or on actual defense missions.
“How about a satellite photo of Soviet military airplanes, on the Ground, in Cuba, and the same or similar Soviet aircraft being intercepted by US Military Aircraft?”
Last time I checked, Cuba was about ninety miles from the US – when did the Soviets overfly Texas airspace?
“ANG pilots are as good as any Air Force pilot.”
Try telling that to a real Air Force pilot.
If George was so danged gung ho, his Daddy could have gotten him a slot in the REAL Air Force so he could have gone to ‘Nam – why didn’t he?
And why did he check the box “don’t want to freakin’ go to Viet Nam?”
Kerry VOLUNTEERED for ‘Nam – why didn’t Bush do the same from the git-go?
Everybody hates george bush and everybody posting here hates you paulie.
bush is going to be regarded as the worst President in history. But you can continue to wear your bush underoos.
I’d advise against sharing your love for bush in public. Might not be too healtyh for you.
WS
There are COUNTLESS sources for everything I have stated on this thread.
Do your homework.
Try the following in your browser:
“John Kerry DD-214″
“John Kerry Paris France Communists”
“John Kerry Navy Secretary Claytor”
The DD-214 that Kerry listed, on his own webpage, contains a flaw. That “document” claims that Kerry has a “Silver Star with a Combat V” — such a designation, such a medal, does NOT exist!
This is evidence of doctored or revised paperwork. Also, the DD-214 Kerry listed shows that Kerry was released to Reserve Duty. There is no record of any Reserve Duty, anywhere. The DD-214 also shows a “terminal date” of 1972, for any obligation that Kerry might have had. JIMMY CARTER WAS ELECTED IN 1976!
Again, why was Jimmy Carter, through his Secretary of the Navy, involved in John Kerry’s discharge, in any way?
I find it fun that you dwell in the past paulie.
Since you AND your party are about to become a part of it?
Two people that haven’t served one hour in the military, arguing about military service of others.
(chortles)
You have yet to prove “anything” Rossell – try using REAL facts to back up your claims – more Right Wing Yahoo sites DO NOT prove your stories.
But answer this – if George the Frat Boy was so gung ho, why didn’t he volunteer for ‘Nam from the very beginning?
“Two people that haven’t served one hour in the military, arguing about military service of others.”
Two people – Rossell and what others?
WS
You do not understand anything about the military.
The Air Force does not look down on ANG pilots.
In fact, domestic defense is primarily the job of ANG pilots.
Also, You are being very dishonest in mentioning the form that Bush signed. Bush could NOT serve overseas, from the time he finished officer training to the time he finished flight school.
EVERYONE in Air Guard training is instructed to fill out the form exactly as Bush filled out the form.
However, once his training was over, George W. Bush DID volunteer for service in Vietnam!
Oh I “chortle” too there James.
You are here again with your natural ally.
You should invite paulie to your meetup.
Regular and WS
I was Honorably Discharged by the United States Marine Corps.
I do not brag about it, but I will not have it ignored, either.
WS
There is a reason that John Kerry did not run again.
There is a reason why Johh Kerry will not release his records.
The evidence is very, very clear.
John Kerry absolutely violated Naval regulations.
John Kerry absolutely took advantage of an Amnesty Program under President Jimmy Carter.
If John Kerry wishes to prove me wrong, he should release his records —
But he won’t!
“I was Honorably Discharged by the United States Marine Corps.”
He got a section 8. Probably a lot like James.
“I was Honorably Discharged by the United States Marine Corps.”
My apologies, Mr. Rossell, I was not aware that you had served – no offense intended – and I humbly hope that you accept my sincere apologies.
That does not make you “facts” accurate, but I did not mean to denigrate your service.
#
Econ101
Posted March 9, 2008 at 10:10 pm | Permalink
Regular and WS
I was Honorably Discharged by the United States Marine Corps.
I do not brag about it, but I will not have it ignored, either
————————
I know Econ101 – I was referring to the other two. :)
JR
You liar.
I have never been diagnosed as having any mental problem whatsoever.
I qualified, after the Marines, for as an EMT, a State Certificate that involved a background check, even for the volunteer work that I did, after earning that certificate.
I have several State and Federal licenses and permits, all of which have back ground checks.
I have my Honarable Discharge certificate, from the Marine Reserves.
You owe me an apology.
You are beneath contempt.
Being called a liar by the blogs biggest liar.
I’ll have to think on that one paulie.
WS
Apology accepted.
I know we often disagree.
I honestly try to back up what I say here, though I do make my own mistakes, at times.
I find this Blog helpful in testing theories and news stories and facts.
It might not matter to all of the Bloggers, but, for what it is worth:
I wish Kerry had run as a “Vietnam Veteran against the War” instead of running as a “War Hero” — granted, if he had done that, he might have won.
However, I have close friends and family members who were on both sides of that debate.
I try hard to understand Kerry, as I do all public officials.
I do not understand why he ran the campaign he ran. My digging is due to that motivation, a desire to understand the minds of public figures.
My explanation is, so far, the only thing that I can come up with, that makes any sense.
OK, I am also frustrated at the attention that George W. Bush received, by the major media, over his military service, and the virtual “pass” that the MSM gave to John Kerry.
On many issues, I am conflicted, myself. I would admire John Kerry if he would admit his personal conflict and put his demons to rest.
Anyway, apology accepted.
And I will try to treat you with the respect you deserve.
“I know Econ101″
I apologized to Rossell, McCreepy, so go phuck yourself.
Unlike you, if I am wrong I can admit it and apologize.
WS and you should be good pals there paulie.
He’s a phony and so are you.
The apology was sincere, Paul. I did not realize that you were a former Marine.
“Once a Marine, always a Marine?”
With due respect, thank you for your service and once again I am sorry for my unintended disrespect.
“He’s a phony and so are you.”
Give it up, J R, this act of yours is getting real old.
Come back tomorrow with a new schtick or just STFU.
Damn.
In respect to everyone, I am going to bed!
I’m no actor here “WS”.
But I bet you are.
And WS
I know it was sincere.
Try to believe me, some of my best friends are far more liberal than you. Some of my family members are even more liberal than you.
I enjoy a good argument.
However, there are people who I love dearly, who are even more wrong than you! ;)
Its ok.
Nite all!
Claim: John Kerry’s war medals were earned under “fishy” circumstances.
Status: FALSE.
Snopes.com
http://www.snopes.com/politics/kerry/service.asp
Give the little rat paulie a goodnight kiss “WS”
“Give the little rat paulie a goodnight kiss “WS””
Paul and I may disagree on many points, J R, but I respect his service and all that served also. I am a proud liberal, but service to our country is nothing to denigrate in the least, from the Left or the Right.
I can get into it with Rossell but NOTHING will change the fact that he served and served with distinction.
For that, I am grateful and I will not allow him to be condemned without a challenge. I will defend his service proudly.
If you have a problem with that, J R, then that is just your issue, not mine.
He may be a conservative that I disagree with on many points, but his service is honorable.
And I will honor that…….
The lies of the right-wing are like vampires. You can’t kill them because they’re already dead . . .
Kerry’s official Naval records (including medals and citations), after-action combat reports, and command history for Coastal Division 11 are all readily available at the official website of Kerry-Edwards ‘04. A summary of Kerry’s medical records was released by Dr. Gerald J. Doyle on April 23. Upon releasing the summarized records, the Kerry campaign noted that “[w]hen the U.S. Navy sent Kerry his official Naval records, his military medical records were not included. Kerry reconstituted the military medical records from his personal files.
mediamatters.org/items/200408130006
April 21, 2004
Campaign Plans to Release All of Kerry’s Available Military Records From Vietnam
By KATHARINE Q. SEELYE
Aides to Senator John Kerry’s presidential campaign said on Tuesday that they would release all of his military records, including evaluations by his Navy commanders, a day after the campaign had refused to make the documents public.
Mr. Kerry won a Silver Star and three Purple Hearts in Vietnam.
The Boston Globe raised questions last week about the circumstances of his first Purple Heart. Mr. Kerry said on ”Meet the Press” on NBC on Sunday that his military records were available for reporters to review at his campaign headquarters here. But when a reporter for The Globe showed up on Monday morning, the campaign withheld several documents, including evaluations by Mr. Kerry’s commanders and some medical records.
The matter was developing into a political problem when campaign officials said Tuesday afternoon that they would release all the documents that the Navy sent Mr. Kerry last month when he requested his complete file. Officials said they would begin posting the documents on the Web site for the campaign (www.johnkerry.com) on Tuesday evening and that the full record would be scanned in by Wednesday afternoon.
A senior adviser to Mr. Kerry, Michael Meehan, said the campaign was releasing all the documents because Mr. Kerry was ”running on his military record, not from his military record.”
query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?
res=9A06E4D71F3BF932A15757C0A9629C8B63
Here’s a .jpg of Kerry’s signed Form 180 requesting that all military records be released.
powerlineblog.com/archives/Kerry11.php
I think I will let it lay there “WS”.
Econ, as a former Marine you should know that a person discharged on other than honorable terms and apply to have their discharge reviewed and possibly upgraded to an honorable discharge. If Kerry’s discharge was indeed something other than honorable it very well may have been reviewed and upgraded. If it occurred during the Carter administration it very well could have been a coincidence. Can you prove that the Carter administration pressured the Navy to upgrade the discharge of some lieutenant? Can you prove deceit by Kerry to intentionally mislead the review board? And I don’t want a link to another blog as your evidence.
And as for Bush, being on ‘active duty’ in the guard is not the same as active duty with the regular components of the military. It appears he was on active duty for training, just like almost every other member of the guard and reserve. You go on active duty until you are fully trained and then revert back to normal drill schedule (with exceptions of course). From what I have been able to gather it looks like Bush attended training and then stopped attending all together.
Bush was flying CAP over Texas and Alabama because Soviet bombers flying from Cuba were violating our airspace? Ummm….I’m gonna have to call bullsh!t on this one. We almost started WW3 over missiles in Cuba but bombers, bombers are OKAY!! Does that really sound logical?
And FYI. The Air Force does look down on the ANG and reserve. They are viewed as armed boy scouts only with nothing near the professionalism.
Yes Bush did volunteer for Vietnam, but the basic requirement to be selected was that pilots needed to have 500 hours of flight time. At the time Bush applied he had a little over 300 and knew there would be no way he would be accepted. A ~200 flight hour deficit is not something that will get overlooked or waived. Two hundred flight hours is a serious deficiency in training.
And lastly you’re right, there are multiple sources for everything you have stated. How about finding some that aren’t blogs or sites that aren’t obviously slanted to the right for the purpose of disinformation?
Something tells me that if Bush stops walking suddenly ECON will break his nose.
“I think I will let it lay there “WS”.”
Find a new playground, J R, you get your ass kicked far too often on this one.
Well that is telling.
You bailed on this forum “WS”
Or did you?
No I don’t think you did.
I welcomed you back here. After your “absence”?
Now you want me to go away? Who else would you like to get rid of “WS”?
Now I am not sure just who you are “WS” but I have a good idea.
Wanna dance?
Fer gosh sakes . . . dudes, we don’t have the luxury of fighting each other.
Worst. President. Ever. has us mired in war without end based on non-existant WMD’s, he let corporations “regulate themselves” and as a result we got Enron scandals and the subprime mortgage and bank meltdown (another FDIC bank went belly up yesterday), and he gave tax breaks to the rich and has nearly doubled the national debt.
This is no time to worry about one’s “feelings.”
Put simply and for everyone to see “WS”, I don’t believe in you.
And even if you are as you say you are, you are a liability here. I have spent too much time defending you when it is clear you are not….all there.
“You bailed on this forum “WS””
Eh, I was taking care of my elderly father, shithead, do you have a problem with that?
Damn.
“I welcomed you back here”
Contrary to your self-proclaimed ownership, this ain’t your blog, J R, so piss off.
“Put simply and for everyone to see “WS”, I don’t believe in you.”
Well, for Christ’s sake, I am not Christ, so you SHOULDN’T believe in me, for Christ’s sake.
Damn.
“Now I am not sure just who you are “WS” but I have a good idea.”
Ya’ want to see my birth certificate, J R?
Here is the data – you can find it online.
William Stephenson Clark
Born: June 11, 1952
Jarvis, Knox County, Kentucky
Parents:
Ronald William Clark
Winifred Jean Johnson – Clark
Married: Detroit, Michigan, August, 1951.
Look it up, you lousy son of a bitch.
Go away “WS”. I do not know who or what you are and I don’t really care.
“I do not know who or what you are and I don’t really care.”
When did you buy the Blog, J R? Do you have the title or do you just think that you own it?
Jerk off.
It’s looking pretty bad for you, Junior, the Left and the Right both think that you’re an asshole.
Good job, Junior!
Ummm—
Ok, try this:
President Jimmy Carter DID have an “Amnesty Program” for Veterans to upgrade their discharge paperwork.
Navy Secretary Claytor DID serve under President Jimmy Carter.
Navy Secretary Claytor DID sign off on discharge paperwork, for John Kerry. This was SEVERAL YEARS after Kerry should have been OUT of the Navy, already!
The Blogs I posted? They got THEIR documents and information DIRECTLY from the John Kerry For President Web Page!
John Kerry posted a DD-214 that lists a “termination date” long before Carter was elected.
John Kerry posted a DD-214 that indicated that he received a medal that does NOT exist, a “Silver Star with a Combat V”
John Kerry posted a letter from Navy Secretary Claytor, who served in that role ONLY under Jimmy Carter. That letter indicates that Kerry’s case was heard under a Board or Tribunal that would only be called in order to upgrade a previous discharge.
I got my ducks in a row, on this one. This letter is from the Kerry Website, and is preferenced by this, on the Blog:
“Mr. Lipscomb’s assertion begins with this document from John Kerry’s website, described there as Kerry’s “Honorable Discharge From Reserve.” Dated February 16, 1978, and issued in the name of Carter administration Secretary of the Navy W. Graham Claytor, it provides:
—–
“Honorable Discharge from the U.S. Naval Reserve
Ref: (a) Title 10, U.S. Code, Section 1162
(b) Title 10, U.S. Code, Section 1163
(c) BUPERSMAN 3830380
Encl: (1) Honorable Discharge Certificate
1. By direction of the President, and pursuant to reference (a), you are hereby honorably discharged from the U.S. Naval Reserve effective this date.
2. This action is taken in accordance with the approved recommendations of a board of officers convened under authority of reference (b) to examine the official records of officers of the Naval Reserve on inactive duty and determine whether they should be retained on the records of the Reserve Component or separated from the naval service pursuant to Secretarial Instructions promulgated in reference (c).”
—-
Look up the US Code, in effect at that time, under those citations.
There is NO OTHER REASON for such a “Board of Officers” to ever convene!
—–
By the way, the Claytor letter, listed above, as well as many other documents that Kerry published, on his own website, have now been taken down. Try hitting all the links on this Blog, that reference back to John Kerry’s own website. Kerry is not releasing his records, Kerry is deleting records that he already released!
http://beldar.blogs.com/beldarblog/2004/10/was_kerrys_orig.html
—–
The Blog I listed was commenting on a story in the New York Sun:
http://www.nysun.com/article/3107
By the way, back to the Clintons.
Hillary has already deleted Eliot Spitzer’s endorsement, on her web page.
“Love Potion #9″
“Hillary has already deleted Eliot Spitzer’s endorsement, on her web page.”
Probably hit a little close to home.
“Navy Secretary Claytor DID sign off on discharge paperwork, for John Kerry. This was SEVERAL YEARS after Kerry should have been OUT of the Navy, already!”
- Okay, since you were in the Marine Corps riddle me this. When was the last time you heard of a person file an appeal to have their discharge upgraded prior to them being discharged? And even if all of this happened, was it illegal? No. You have 15 years to file an appeal. So was Kerry within the 15 year time limit?
“John Kerry posted a DD-214 that indicated that he received a medal that does NOT exist, a “Silver Star with a Combat V”
-You are right. Valor is implied with the award of the Silver Star so “V” device is not used with it. But who filled out Kerry’s DD-214? Was it Kerry or was it some admin person who probably had a dozen or more to fill out that day? Did John Kerry change his DD-214 and post it on the web for all to see? Well since that would be forging a government document I would imagine that there would be more than a few people to question this. I’m sure that if Kerry had changed his DD-214 his actual 214 would have been “leaked” to the press.
And if he originally received an other than honorable discharge and it was reviewed and upgraded to honorable guess what? He received and honorable discharge.