For the first time, 1 of every 100 Americans is behind bars, reports the New York Times. Our prison population is the largest in the world — 1.6 million — with China second at 1.5 million. The prison costs are “blowing a hole in state budgets,†according to a report by the Pew Center on States.
America’s lock ’em up fervor in the past two decades has had an undeniable impact in reducing crime rates, but the report says too many nonviolent offenders are going to prison.
Kansas was one of 12 states that showed a decline in prison population in 2007.
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237 Comments
I understand it costs some $30,000 per year per Kansas prisoner as compared to some $9,000 per Kansas public school student.
This whole prison thing needs a lot more examination by the public. I suspect that Kansas needs to find alternatives to incarceration for less dangerous offenders to avoid the horrendous expense of building more prisons.
On addition to the high numbers of incarcerated persons in Kansas is the high number of homeless persons. Is anybody outside of government bureaucrats looking for solutions?
If locking up more criminals has had a postive impact on reducing crime, then let’s build more prisons. If people don’t want to go to jail, they they shouldn’t break the law.
Maybe it’s time we made going to prison a very negative experience…no TV, computers, libraries, free medical care, free education, free legal aid, fully equipted gyms, basketball courts, no time to read, play cards, create art, etc.
Make the prisons like those in other countries and maybe Americans will want to stay out of them.
The reason why China has fewer imates than us is because they execute most of their prisoners for petty crimes like stealing, etc. My son watched the Chinese police execute a man on the street they pulled off a train for stealing a camera, no trial, nothing, they just shot him in the head when they found him with the camera. We have the cushiest prison system and justice sytem in the world.
Comparing numbers of prisoners in the U.S. (1.6 million) to numbers of prisoners in China (1.5 million) is apples and oranges. The population of the U.S. is some 300,000,000. The population of China is some 1,300,000,000(+).
Good point, J Wink….an ounce of prevention. Let’s focus on WHY so many go to prison in the first place and address the underlying cause. THEN make prisons a place no one would want to go to.
Mary: I clipped that article about prisons in the EAGLE last week to read this weekend. My reaction is:
** As long as lawyers are totally in charge of our justice system without general public input, we are going to continue to have lots of problems.
** The prevailing idea that longer sentences equates to “getting tough on crime” is wrong.
** “Three strikes, the offender is out,” and other formulas are copouts by judges and legislators to avoid doing what they are paid to do … that is, look at circumstances of each case.
Mary, I know your family has been personally offended by a criminal and I sympathise with you. I have been trying to look into this justice situation but its difficult to get facts.
The costs to the taxpayers are growing exponentially. Changes are needed to protect victims and to curb growing costs.
Maybe Singapore’s punishment of public canning is not so barbaric after all. We seem to be going nowhere with imprisonment, except to keep them out of the public and doing more crime. Maybe a public canning might make a better impression on them personally in teaching them a lesson and be a better deterrent to others.
The issue is complex to say the least, some major factors are the economy, if it an election year and social attitudes. Back in the eighties there were a real push to bring down prisons and jails overcrowding. Alternative sentencing, looking at revising mandatory sentencing( someone convicted of the sales of drugs would be receive a mandatory sentence even for a small amount of drugs often tens of years) early release and the like. But many of these measures went against society’s attitudes of “Lock them up!”.
There are those hard core criminals, either common or as a business who have the opinion of “why should I work forty hours a week, doing something I do not really like, for someone I dislike. When I can make as much money in five minutes as I would in forty hours?”. But many are happenstance criminals, a situation has prompted them to commit a crime rather then actual criminal desire.
Large numbers in prison is an indicator that the economy was not as good as it was said for some time, it being a extra long election year which means in an election year those in office want to show they are tough on crime. There is little short of what Mary was saying he son witnessed in China could be done about the hard core. But there should be a hard look at Mandatory sentencing and whether it was promoted by the crime or just society’s opinion. That is not saying that judges having a total leeway in sentencing is the best course. But certainly some direction could help in that area too.
They should have drugs and drunk jails and prisons. Put this people in a facility where they have to earn a living and pay for their incarceration and expenses.
If you are in violation of DUI and thrown in jail, you go to the Drug and Drunk (D&D) facility and start to work. No sitting around, getting three squares – work.
“Make the facilities “tent cities” so no expensive concrete money “hogs” are created. Feed them what they can grow and cheap meat from second cuts.
One percent of the adult population are irresponsible louts – yeah, so what else is new?
There’s probably another 10 percent that get away with white collar crime, because no one has figured it out.
Perhaps the Sci Fi idea of prison asteroids is not such a bad idea. If they want to escape, let them – like where are they going to go?
I think that would be “caning” Boxlock.
“Canning” someone is – er something else. :D
Legalize drugs, drop the consent age to 14, three quarters of the prison population is gone. There you go; problem solved. Half are in for drugs; 25 percent in for bullshit sex crimes.
Actually Regular that is the primary function of the center at Mc Clean and Harry, many there are DUIs and it is work release. They have to pay for their up come and have a job or get one within a time period. Though the work release program is not used just for DUIs, while supervising it on second shift in the middle eighties I saw one that was convicted of aggravated Battery. I stall remember what he said when I pointed out he had been booked on Attempted First degree murder. “I was trying to kill the SOB, but he would not die!”.
I guess my point is that such facilities are useful in sentencing and cheaper to run. Needing minimal security requirements though still a trained staff. The county lucked out in this one as it was the old city P-farm.
How about following the advice of Michael Savage and start outsourcing the handling of our prisoners to China. I think that may be a deterent. Instead of 30,000 a year as jwink has found down to what, maybe 5,000 per prisoner. Sounds like a sweet deal.
Would Jesus shoot someone in the head for stealing a camera?
You are a Nutzi Mary!
There is a person in jail for every 100 Americans ten times the rate of other western a nations. Australia and Canada has one person in jail for every 1000 persons and Europe considerably less. What’s wrong with this picture?
I don’t have a problem with it. If you do the crime, do the time. In fact I think sentences for many crimes are too short if anything. Especially for repeat offenders. If you do 3 felonies, you should be locked up for a minimum of 30 years. Armed robbers should get at least 30 years. Killers should be put away in Supermax and left there for life. It should bother you that somebody like BTK might not ever “get out” but can, in 10 years, be living in a minimum security prison that is like a college dorm without even a fence around it. Same for child molesters and wannabe molesters (like the kind you see on TV) The only sentences I would like to see shorter are things like drug offenses. Locking people up for having a bong for 10 years is a bit stupid.
“”"I understand it costs some $30,000 per year per Kansas prisoner as compared to some $9,000 per Kansas public school student.
This whole prison thing needs a lot more examination by the public. I suspect that Kansas needs to find alternatives to incarceration for less dangerous offenders to avoid the horrendous expense of building more prisons. “”"
Almost ALL offenders are dangerous. You may think that burglars and car thieves are “not dangerous” but the cops who chase and catch them will tell you otherwise.
“The reason why China has fewer imates than us is because they execute most of their prisoners for petty crimes like stealing, etc. My son watched the Chinese police execute a man on the street they pulled off a train for stealing a camera, no trial, nothing, they just shot him in the head when they found him with the camera. We have the cushiest prison system and justice sytem in the world.”
Are you seriously suggesting we should emulate the Chinese, Mary?
There are all numbers of types of people in our prisons. Part of the problem is the mindless “get tough on crime” measures that took away sentencing discretion from judges (and we have a bill in our legislature that would make that situation worse). Someone who is convicted of growing and smoking marijuana (unless there are other circumstances, there are some scary operations) more than once should not be automatically sentenced like someone caught someone who has done armed robbery or rape more than once. Judges should have discretion, and there should be multiple options for sentencing.
Also, there are some rehabilitation options that are demonstrated to reduce recidivism, but sometimes we have shot ourselves in the foot because rehabilitation (particularly education and job training programs) is seen as rewarding the bad behavior that put them behind bars in the first place. Never mind the fact that some of these things actually work, we can’t actually REWARD prisoners.
“”"If locking up more criminals has had a postive impact on reducing crime, then let’s build more prisons. If people don’t want to go to jail, they they shouldn’t break the law.
Maybe it’s time we made going to prison a very negative experience…no TV, computers, libraries, free medical care, free education, free legal aid, fully equipted gyms, basketball courts, no time to read, play cards, create art, etc.
Make the prisons like those in other countries and maybe Americans will want to stay out of them.”"”
I agree. When I was in jail it was not comfortable. There was no air conditioning and the only TV was in the day room. The food was not exactly great either (and I was a trustee!). I determined at that time that JAIL was not my kinda place. And I ain’t been back. Not even for an hour!
“”"There is a person in jail for every 100 Americans ten times the rate of other western a nations. Australia and Canada has one person in jail for every 1000 persons and Europe considerably less. What’s wrong with this picture?”"”
What is wrong with this is that in Canada you can committ rampant crime and almost never go to jail. If you are 17 and 1/2 year old, you can go out and murder 4 people and rape little kids and expect to be out of jail at 21 years old. There are many good things about Canada but their justice system is not something we should wish to copy.
“”"Legalize drugs, drop the consent age to 14, three quarters of the prison population is gone. There you go; problem solved. Half are in for drugs; 25 percent in for bullshit sex crimes.”"”
I agree about drugs however a 30 year old man has no business with a 14 year old girl. The age of consent is 16 and that is where it should be. Mess with anything under 16, go to jail. Go straight to jail. Don’t pass go and don’t collect $200!
We need to put MORE criminals behind bars. I for one, am willing to pay a special tax if that’s what it takes to incarcerate even more. Imagine that!
To save costs we also pay our corrections officers peanuts. Give em a fat raise!
Outsourcing prisons is a great idea and a big trend. Look up CCA http://www.correctionscorp.com/.
Still costly, but allowing private corporations to find more efficient ways of handling the dredges of society.
Libertarians would free the druggies, which would cut the numbers in jail. Not sure I go along with that extreme.
Anyone wonder if China is reporting truthful information? Remember, the communist nations are superb at lies and propaganda for world consumption.
Crime is a function of the socio economic unfairness in society.
Building more jails to reduce crime is like outlawing a womans right to choose to stop abortion.
It is treating effect and not cause.
As long as the few are getting rich on the backs and sweat of the many, we will and arguably SHOULD have crime.
Percentage of State Prison Population
Offense: 1995 2004
Violent 47% 52%
Property 23 21
Drug 22 20
Public Order 9 7
Source: OSDOJ
“socio economic unfairness in society” JR
What you are saying is the criminal is not responsible for their actions. Society is?
I disagree, but am willing to examine that.
Somehow, JR, you are saying this is societies
fault?
At yearend 2006 there were 3,042 black male sentenced prisoners per 100,000 black males in the United States, compared to 1,261 Hispanic male sentenced prisoners per 100,000 Hispanic males and 487 white male sentenced prisoners per 100,000 white males.
Source: USDOJ
If we would stop sending petty drug users to prison we would cut down at least 20% of the prison population. Drug users need re-hab not jail time.
I think you just helped me prove my point “American Way”.
I agree about drugs however a 30 year old man has no business with a 14 year old girl. The age of consent is 16 and that is where it should be. Mess with anything under 16, go to jail. Go straight to jail. Don’t pass go and don’t collect $200!
Kev, whats the difference between a 30 year old man with a 14 year old, and a 30 year old man with a 16 year old, a two year difference. I think 30 year old with a 16 year old is just as morally wrong, but should we send all those people to jail, maybe we shouldn’t send them to jail but give them some form of public humiliation, anything we should do something else that works better as punishment, I don’t think sending them to prison is wholly justified unless the person is an actual child molester, then they should be sent to prison, and stay in prison instead of recieving a lighter sentence than a drug offender.
Believe it or not Amway, we our a product of our environment, and our soceity does have an impact on people although society is not soley responsible, its just a factor that plays into a number of things.
Anyone given a thought to the idea that the past minimum security and the no jail time added to the problem we have now. That the number of persons in corrections today is because they haven’t been held to having to face the consequences of their actions.
That the “slap on the wrist” has done nothing to hold people accountable. That my first DUI ended up only costing me a suspended license for 30 days makes it easier for me to go on to the second or third, knowing that the penalty for my actions are so little that I’m okay with my actions, and keep my fingers crossed that I don’t kill someone next time.
“As long as the few are getting rich on the backs and sweat of the many, we will and arguably SHOULD have crime.”
Criminals, to include rapists, druggies, and child molesters do so because they are not rich?
A man walks into a 7 11 and shoots another poor person working behind the counter. How is this societies fault?
I’m sure there is a relationship to our modern society, but I don’t see how people getting rich has anything to do with it.
J R
Posted March 1, 2008 at 9:32 am | Permalink
I think you just helped me prove my point “American Way”.
I posted that immediately J R because I knew you would say that.
But I do not see how this proves anything. I posted it to promote a discussion where I might learn why you think this is cause/effect.
Gene Ratson, a DUI can be considered a violent crime, but being sent to jail for 10 years for an ounce of grass is a disproportinate punishment compared to first time dui offender who serves no more than a week in a holding cell.
BucKCorvus
Posted March 1, 2008 at 9:41 am | Permalink
Believe it or not Amway, we our a product of our environment
I do agree with your statement, however, we have been hearing that since the 1960’s and probably even before my time. I don’t see anyone working on a solution, or else the number of inmates would be decreasing?
I am not seeing where ” unfairness” or “getting rich off the backs” has anything to do with it.
We will never find a solution with statements or beliefs such as that.
Start with the demographics of those who are incarcerated and for what offenses. Who is in jail and for what crimes?
Why?
Isn’t it a shame how many DUI attorneys there are in the phone book. What is that teaching your children.
“Well son, daddy went out and drank and drove last night and got caught by the police. Instead of admitting what I did was wrong and accept the consequences of my actions, daddy has to go out and hire an attorney and pay the attorney a whole lot of money in hopes of finding any small thing that the police did wrong in hopes of not having to face the consequences of my actions.”
How’s that for teaching your children or setting an example for them.
Well I don’t know Geneo
I got pulled over many years ago. Wanna know why?
I was driving too carefully.
I SHOULD have fought it. The officer had no other reason for pulling me over. AND he never read me my rights.
I blew a .08. All said and done that cost me about $5,000
Do ya feel nice and self satisfied that a working single dad was put through the wringer for driving too carefully? I only wish I had hired a DUI attorney.
Well son, daddy went out and drank and drove last night and got caught by the police. Instead of admitting what I did was wrong and accept the consequences of my actions,
Another mass of steaming b.s. The only serious drug we legalize is alcohol, which happens to be a drug which even in small amounts eliminates judgement, and them we refuse as a society to accept any of the responsibility for the use of the drug, while spending billions to promote its use.
I got a dui when I was 19, but I wasn’t drunk, I passed the breathalyzer, I was actually the designated driver and had only drank 2 beers the whole night, but the cop chose to convict me anyway because I was under age. I got the same punishment actual drunk drivers get, while my friend I was driving home was piss drunk and the cop let him off scott free.
The idea of rehab has been going on for decades now and where are we at? All during the early 70’s it was rehab, rehab or we just need more education. How many BILLIONS of dollars have been spent on drug education, telling the kids that drugs are bad, that it leads to bad things and YET where are we today?
You’ve got Buck stating that oh a small amount of mj shouldn’t be punished. Whats next, “oh a small amount of crack is okay, we shouldn’t punish for that.”
“Oh a girl can get pregnant at 12, so we should make that the legal age, because everyone knows that if a girl can have a menstrual cycle then she is probably mature enough to handle having a child”
Where does it stop, where do we as a society start making a statement that by being more lenient just leads to our downfall as a society even quicker. We all know AND SHOULD FACE the fact that once you open a hole, it cannot help but get bigger and bigger.
Violent 47% 52%
Property 23 21
Drug 22 20
Public Order 9 7
All sex crimes are lumped in with violent crimes, even when there is no violence involved. I read in the Kansas Prison Forum that sex criminals no longer face any onus in prison because there are now so many of them.
“we refuse as a society to accept any of the responsibility for the use of the drug, while spending billions to promote it”
Door King are you saying we should decriminalize drugs or go back to prohibition of alcohol?
How is society refusing to accept responsibility
for DUI’s?
Who in society is spending billions to promote it? Would that be those buying the product?
the fact that once you open a hole, it cannot help but get bigger and bigger.
Right; the hole is called american prisons. It keeps getting bigger and bigger.
That would be the billions spent to promote the use of alcohol through advertisement, American Way.
How many BILLIONS of dollars have been spent on drug education, telling the kids that drugs are bad, that it leads to bad things and YET where are we today?
Exactly, thats not drug education, thats drug propaganda, you tell kids that all drugs are bad, and then some kids down’t know the difference between marijuana and heroin, all they know is that drugs are bad and dangerous. God forbid we teach kids that it is human nature to consume mind altering substances like alcohol and teach them the difference each drug has on the body and mind, and how some drugs are extremely dangerous while other drugs pose less of a threat, and that the biggest problem is substance abuse which is attributed to a number of things except criminal activity.
“sex criminals no longer face any onus in prison”
“Chesties” child abusers do make a large segment of the prison population. Society is causing that?
Don’t forget also now, illegal aliens.
first off buck the police don’t convict, so you can put that arguement aside. As far as what occured during the stop there are two sides. I would LOVE to have seen the video of your stop. AND as the designated driver there is suppose to be ZERO alcohol, THAT IS THE POINT. I’m glad you got stopped.
As for you JR, at the time, was it illegal, against the law to operate a motor vehicle while under the influence? By blowing a .08, did you violate the law? These are simple YES or NO questions.
So you found out that there was a consequence to your actions. What is sad is that here we are years later and supposedly smarter and yet you are STILL justifying your actions. You are still telling your children that even though there are laws and there are consequences to violating them, you are still trying to say that you were in the right, KNOWING FOR A FACT, THAT YOU WERE NOT.
SAD, SAD, SAD
“That would be the billions spent to promote the use of alcohol through advertisement, American Way.”
Thanks Door King, those buying alcohol are in fact paying for it’s promotion. I didn’t know if you were saying “society” or the government which allows it is paying for promoting it.
Gene Raston
Posted March 1, 2008 at 10:13 am
Great post! Amen.
By blowing a .08, did you violate the law? These are simple YES or NO questions.
No, he did not violate the law since BAC tests have a range of accuracy of from about .079 to .081; thus there was no proof that the person in question had the BAC to convict. He should have hired a lawyer. He would have one.
won
AND as the designated driver there is suppose to be ZERO alcohol, THAT IS THE POINT. I’m glad you got stopped.
You think that’s a law? What steaming bullshit. What has happened in Kansas is that we have created two sets of laws, one which is more harsh for offenders who are minors. This is so we can “teach them a lesson.” What we have taught them is to avoid all contact with the law, and that the law is completely unfair.
What I’m speaking about here is the law. What is illegal and what is legal. I revert back to the old Dragnet series. Friday was always against drugs because they were illegal. His wording was always if you don’t like the law then go about changing it, make it legal if you can get a majority to follow you and make the change to the law. Don’t break the law SIMPLY because you don’t agree with it or don’t like it, CHANGE IT.
As far as legalizing MJ, I’d rather not see that occur, I KNOW it is a starter drug to other harder things, I’ve seen the consequences of it. Now are there parts of society that can handle it better then the rest, sure there are, the same for alcohol. BUT right now alcohol is a legal drug, AND there are laws and consequences for not using it responsibly. I get bombarded by the so called advertising for alcohol all the time and guess what I still only have about 4 beers a year and NEVER if I think I’m going to be driving. Again I’ve seen what can happen. I’ve been touched by what can happen.
I’ve no doubt that for every person that killed someone because they were drinking and driving told themselves before they turned the key, told themselves that they were JUST FINE. That they were just a LITTLE buzzed, they had only had 2 or 3 beers.
But whether or not you kill someone, have your luck run out and finally get caught by the police, or get caught with just a little MJ, YOU’VE BROKEN THE LAW, it is that simple.
Face the consequences and then go change the law if you don’t like it.
Actually I wasn’t pulled over, my car had died, and I was pulled over on the side of a road, some old lady called the cops on us, for what reasons I don’t know, the cops showed up, and because my keys were still in the ignition they were able to take me in for a dui, even though I was outside of my car working under the hood.
Door King — Your 9:39 a.m. post is basically horse hockey….
BUT — I will give you the benefit of the “doubt”, and challenge you to present some kind of a Link to prove ANY of what you say about sexual predators “dopnt exist”.
OK??? Then let’s see the Links???
Otherwise, you got problems!!
Door King, get real, I had 2 beers knowing I would not get drunk and that was 3 hours before I drove my friend home from the party.
Oh, sorry Door King, I meant to be directing that comment towards gene.
I passed the field sobriety test, said my damn ABC’s backwards which is hard to do anyway, then I barley even registred on the breathalyzer after they took me downtown, and one cop was wanting to let me go, but the rookie cop he was with wanted to nab his first dui offender, so thats pretty much why I got busted, so I could be the first notch on the belt of a rookie.
Sounds like you needed a good lawyer, Buck — you and JR both!!
Chas, I tried to fight it, but the best I could do was get a diversion, when your underage and caught drinking the normal laws applied to people of age don’t apply, its called zero tolerence.
a 70 year old man who has sex with a consenting 14 year old girl is not a child molester. He is a man who had sex with a woman. Child molesters are those attracted sexually to sexually immature partners.
OK, then what you really got nailed for was MIP, and not DUI… Right??
My exact point door king. Where is the technicality to get me off so I don’t have to face the consequences of the law. Driving impaired, (under .08) is also against the law, but someone please get me off, I shouldn’t have to face the consequences of violating the law, because I don’t agree with it.
Also JR, if you were really, really truthful with yourself, had you not been caught then and maybe changed your ways, how long would it have been until you started telling yourself, Hey I didn’t get pulled over and got home okay with only 2 or 3 beers, how long would it have been before you might have been thinking, I could probably be okay after 3 or 4, or 4 or 5. I haven’t been pulled over, I haven’t killed anyone, so I must still be okay.
But, Door King… The 14 yr old girl is not legally able to “consent” — So, your old timer is a molester!! BY LAW!!
One common theme being repeated here is one that is well known in the prison industry. Most inmates will tell you they aren’t guilty. :-)
I know — there are some who might want to give the old geezer a medal… But…. Still he is a sex molester… Sex with a Minor…
“I was driving too carefully.”
Yeah, right. I can see THAT on a police report.
Hey – anyone want to buy some swamp land? Sorry J R couldn’t resist. :-)
But, Door King… The 14 yr old girl is not legally able to “consent” — So, your old timer is a molester!! BY LAW!! (in the usa. in some state)
But not by the LAW of Nature. And she did consent.
To Chas:
BUT — I will give you the benefit of the “doubt”, and challenge you to present some kind of a Link to prove ANY of what you say about sexual predators “dopnt exist”.
That’s easy: define a sexual predator. Bet you can’t or you start running into problems at least.
Define it.
I dont know what State you might be talking about where 14 is legal for consensual sex… Mississippi??? W. VA.??? In KS, a 1 yr old girl CANNOT consent to sex…. It is illegal…. The old timer is a pervert, and a molester!
Poverty. It’s pretty simple.
1 = 14 typo!!
Consensual sex among sexual adults is not harmful; in fact, study after study suggests it is beneficial to both parties as long as disease or unwanted pregnancies are avoided. So why do we have a kitten about it?
Alcohol and drug addiction is 90% of the reason people go to jail.
Unemployment is the number one cause of alcohol and drug addiction.
Kansas has low unemployment so it has less people in jail. Besides the Police keep catching them and the Judge keeps letting them go.
http://www.associatedcontent.com/article/450617/study_teens_having_sex_early_may_control.html
Just one of a many studies that suggest people who have sex are better off. Of course they are; people who get laid are happier than people who don’t. Every one knows this, yet we keep on putting people in jail for getting laid. It’s NUTS. The ages of the partners are not relevant.
I asked JR now I’ll ask you buck. Were your actions illegal? Yes or No? Yes, being the driver and having the keys in the ignition and being impaired as the driver and being a minor in possession is illegal. It is on the books, so don’t blame the police. The police are simply law enforcers NOT law makers.
As far as designated driver, NO this is not a law, it is just a great idea. The designated driver is not suppose to drink at all. As far as the supposed two sets of laws one for adults one for minors, this is a good idea. It should be more harsh for minors, in hopes of it being such that you would NEVER want to go through it again. That you would NEVER even consider the idea of drinking and driving again or if you are ever the designated driver again, there will be zero alcohol consumed.
It is ONE night out of your life and you can’t even keep from drinking for 6 or 7 hours to make sure your buddies get home okay? You may have bigger problems.
Door King >>>>
There is NO state where consensual sex is allowable in the United States!
http://www.coolnurse.com/consent.htm
Perhaps we need to redefine when girls can consent to sex. It was nothing for 16 year olds to be pregnant and married less than 100 years ago. There is a reason for that…their bodies are ready.
It is us as a society that has caused their brains to be younger than they should. we see this in juvenile cats..their bodies are ready to reproduce before they’re ready…so even though they go into heat, their first litter can be abandoned.
In the evolution of humans, we needed to breed early, we died early. Girls could do all they needed to do to live as adults by that time. You still see it in primitive tribes.
So if our bodies say it’s time to have sex, and society says wait another 10 years or so, see the problem and the discrepancy?
No we don’t want freaky old men who prey on these girls, but there should be consideration on each case on an individual basis. I know plenty of women who married or had sex with men older than them as teens. One of my best friends started dating her 10 years older husband when she was 14.
Myself, my first love was 18 and I was 14. He was a good man, decorated in the Army in Desert Storm, had a very bright future before he was tragically killed. He wasn’t a sexual predator.
I work around a lot of old people where this wasn’t a big deal back then. And many husbands and wives have good marriages for 60+ years.
Of course, our roles have changed, we’re no longer expected to sit home and be baby factories (thank God), but we still have to consider why teens still feel the desire to have sex before. And that’s why teens having sex will never end.
Door King observes >>>>
“Just one of a many studies that suggest people who have sex are better off.”
That isnt what is being challenged here D K… You started off with a 70 yr old man having sex with a 14 yr old girl, which is VERY illegal… NOW you come up with this one… which, ifboth parties are agreeable, of course there is nothing illegal or necessarily wrong with that!!
PMama — I believe many states already have a special set of laws relating to teen sex, with both are under 18.. So, maybe the courts are keeping up (a little) with times…
I know… most amazing, eh??
Wow! I see the discussion topic of record numbers of Americans in jail has degenerated into a discussion of individual’s criminal cases.
Was hoping for a discourse on what if anything record numbers in jail means for American society.
Is there an examination as to why? Is there anything that can be done (to lower numbers)?
Personally, I am seeing the media attention on this “number of inmates” portrayed as if something is “wrong”. Maybe nothing is wrong.
Maybe this is a consequence of our society demanding criminals be locked up, for longer periods, and three strikes you are out.
I remember a time when the nation demanded prison reform – to lower recitism. What happened there?
We still have high numbers of repeat offenders. Does three strikes DISCOURAGE former inmates from continuing a life of crime? We only hear about the sad cases of #3: stole a bag of chips. But what of the others who DON’T hit strike #3?
I heard that in France, their recitism rate is less than 1%. What of other countries? Might this be a comparison too? And what is working to keep criminals from repeated crime?
Heard enough of bloggers beating bloggers on their individual criminal stories (and sorry I responded as one today).
Pot should be legal.
“Alcohol and drug addiction is 90% of the reason people go to jail.”
Is that supported anywhere? There is much information on the US Dept of Justice website.
Or is your message that in your opinion, those who commit crime did it for money to support their drug habit? And the rest got DUI’s?
AmWay… The entire field of Criminology cant seem to answer why we have such a high percentage of citizens in prisons, etc.
I am sure a large part of it is drug related… But, then we have to ask if there is something in the over all “fabric” and “weave” of our American society that encourages the wide spread use of drugs…
WHY do kids prefer to go out and get HIGH, instead of play ball till sundown?? WHY would kids prefer to sit in front of a giant TV screen and play video games, instead of going out “roller skating” or playing mini-golf like back in the day??
I dont KNOW!! But I do think we need some more carefully designed studies, to see what our trends are, and what leads people to live a life of criminal pursuits??
“Pot should be legal.”
O.K., now let’s get a list of controlled substances that bloggers feel should be legalized to cut down on the number of inmates in US jails. How will that reduce violent crime, the biggest numbers?
“WHY do kids prefer to go out and get HIGH, instead of play ball till sundown?”
I didn’t as a kid. My kids didn’t use drugs and have all grown up to be contributing adults.
Not sure what video games/roller skating have to do with criminals? Reminded me of my childhood skating and doing things outside. Remember riding bikes for all hours, playing “army men”, cowboys, red rover, statue cigarette tag, marbles.etc…!
I agree with your overall post. I get hung up by blaming society – when that hasn’t worked.
AmWay — one big factor has to do with what is called “instant gratification” Young people now expect to start off life where their parents are NOW, instead of starting off at the “bottom” of a field, and working up….
From 1951 – 1969 My Dad only had 3 new cars… he drove them till they rolled over and begged for mercy!! I can only remember him buying 3 new suits in my life time!! (OK, so he ate good, and had no weight changes to speak of…) Kids now get new clothes at the drop of a pin… They want a new car whenever they WANT one… They dont want to “save up” for it… If you suggest to a kid now days, that they should have a “piggy bank” they look at you like you need a brain transplant!!
When I was in high school, gas prices were 16 – 20 cents a gallon… I could take a date out for dinner, a movie, and something to drink after the flick for MAYbe $10!! And that included $2 of gas in Dad’s car… Yes, Dad’s car… only had one car in the family… Can you believe it??? ONE car for three drivers!! LOL Never would happen today!!
There are some really bad people in the world and they belong in prison. Throw away the key.
There are some really stupid people in the world and they do stuff that puts ‘em in prison.
Maybe stupid is curable. Bad is not.
I got to thinking about the Emporia preacher murderer; the TV movie was “Murder Ordained.” I kinda think Tom Bird was bad; really bad. Lorna Anderson was stupid.
Both are out of jail now, I think. I think Bird got out first. He played the prison game better, I guess.
I think what Bird did was heinous. I think what Lorna Amderson did was stupid.
Same crimes. Same victims. Different punishments. What the hell?
pot should be legal. Yeah right, that will work out great.
Sorry boss, pot is legal so I started taking it and can’t handle it, i’m now addicted. So either you must give me work that I can do while under its affects OR I can start getting disability payments which everyone else gets to pay for since I cannot work because I’m addicted. Oh and the guvment is going to REQUIRE that you pay for my treatment.
Whoever likes the idea of your EMS or Police officers to be high on the job because they are addicted to pot but don’t want to admit it, PLEASE RAISE YOUR HAND.
You ever notice how many TV shows and movies portray retired cops as running “bars”???
Are we saying that the only way to relieve our tensions is by drinking ourselves stupid???
All the cops get off of their shift, and the first thing they do is go to the bar run by the retired cop, and order a Double!!
But, it isnt really the booze… it’s the atmosphere they want… the people…. cops can get drunk around other cops… because, well, they understand each other… :roll:
Yes this has some bearing on what is happening in society as a whole!!
Amway, 20 percent of prisoners are there on drug related non-violent charges. Prison is a tough cut throat place to live, theres nothing more worse we could do than sending non-violent people to prison on drug related charges to survive the harsh prison system, and some of those people don’t come out reformed, they come out of prison hardened criminals, that lived in a violent environment. We send a pothead to prison for ten years, he will come out of prison a different person, institutionalized and desensitized to the everday violence from living among violent criminals. I assure you, some people that go to prison on drug related charges and get sodomized are not going to come out of prison a better person.
Gene you dork, people don’t get addicted to pot. So whatever.
and you can get very addicted to booze. I don’t see those things happening you mentioned.
“Throw away the key.”
I used to support locking them up, throwing away the key, and inmates making little rocks out of big rocks, chain-gangs, license plates, etc…
but the “throwing away the key” implies forgetting about them?
Still think manual labor does a body good and restores the soul. But the sixties brought about changes to help inmates “return to society”. Again, not sure that has worked and certainly cost us money to provide training skills.
But I’ve learned you have to provide inmates hope. Otherwise, they become very dangerous and unmanageable. This probably isn’t the forum for all that, but from the first day inside the walls, their new world is one of gained priviledges. Even a pencil and paper is earned.
Anyway, we pay prison guards peanuts, don’t require more than a HS Diploma – and expect them to risk their lives as corrections officers.
Until we discover why people commit crime, and put in place whatever “change” is required to reduce it, the only solution I see is building more prisons. I’d rather be taxed to pay for that now, than have some judge order early release and putting them back in society.
If you are brave enough to keep investing in paper assets, buy up stock in prisons. You’re sure to get rich (if you can be lucky enough to stay out of the prison).
Wow
Long thread, sorry if I am repeating someone else,
HOWEVER —
Did we not just see a local story, that Minister / Land Lord who found someone in his rental crawl space, stealing copper pipe?
It was pretty funny, the Minister borded up the crawl space access and trapped the guy!
He was on a WORK RELEASE, with instructions to FIND A JOB!
Also, I had a pick up truck stolen once. They drove it all the way to Fayetteville Arkansas, before they were caught, hung over, at a State Park.
The two were on “work release” from Hutch Reformatory Or El Dorado, I think, I do not recall. Anyway they decided to get drunk, rather than get on the bus to go back to lock up.
Then, they started talking about the Civil War, and decided to go South to look for Civil War artifacts.
Honest, that is what they told the police!
Anyway, many of our criminals are just stupid people.
When people on work release steal, they do not do so to feed themselves, their meals are provided for them!
I reject the idea that the economy causes crime.
Look at crime during the Great Depression, would you?
And, I do not think that Mary C was advocating justice precisely as carried out in China.
However, it is worth noting that, in a country like China were life is cheap, they have killed many people that we would simply put into prison.
Therefore, it is hard to compare numbers, isnt it?
“don’t come out reformed”
It’s not just pot smokers making up that 20%. I think it is other more potent drugs.
But I get your point. Small time criminals become worse criminals. “Pot” is just one example. Legalizing it opens a whole different can of worms. And I’m not sure it would make much difference on crime and incarceration.
But let’s not fool ourselves: it’s been forty years since “prison reform”, and recitism rates are still high. Lot’s of money spent, but they still come back for more time incarcerated.
Pmom for a nurse you still have the blinders on about pot. It is a gateway drug this is a known and accepted fact amoung lawmen. When that buzz isn’t enough they move up to the heavier stuff. I would like to see a poll of crack users. How many do you think smoked pot before using crack? I bet 100% or awfully close to it. Pot lowers your inhibitions and lets you do things you wouldn’t do if not under its influence.
Look at the real research. I’m not preaching about the evils of pot – just stating the obvious. If we are really trying to stop this epidemic of being imprisioned then we need to be realistic about the root causes.
“Taking” pot? Haw haw haw. Ignorance is bliss as is testified by the dolts on here.
I think it was Allistaire Cook who said something like, “Every generation thinks they invented sex.”
And (unless you deny the reality of evolution) we are animals pretty much hardwired into wanting sex at around age 14, give or take a couple of years.
When we were living in caves, just about all the problems of survival were pretty much at hand by age 14 or so. Food. Cold. Sabre-toothed tigers. That was just about it.
As civilization encroached and life started getting more complicated two 14-year-olds with a couple of cave-toddlers were faced with division of labor, taxes, being a serf…whatever.
So at what age does a person reach the age of *consent” to be responsible for the consequences of pregnancy? I read recently that the myth “you can’t get pregnant your first time” is alive and well among today’s middle-school girls, depsite decades of sex education. Does any girl who believes that these days have what it takes to give *consent* for sex?
I’ll grant you, a 40-something male having sex with a 13-year-old strikes me as (to use the technical term) *ookie.” But I’m not sure it’s anthropologically “wrong.”
Is it worth the price to incarcerate everyone that poses a threat to the etablished order?
Is “ookie-ness” enough of a crime?
Yeah, maybe. Maybe not.
Symptoms of Marijuana Addiction:
Marijuana tolerance:
Either need for markedly increased amounts of marijuana to achieve intoxication, or markedly diminished effect with continued use of the same amount of marijuana.
Greater use of marijuana than intended:
Marijuana taken in larger amounts or over a longer period than was intended.
Unsuccessful efforts to cut down or control marijuana use.
A great deal of time spent in using marijuana
Marijuana use causing a reduction in social, occupational or recreational activities.
Continued marijuana use despite knowing it will cause significant problems.
http://www.marijuanaaddiction.info/
Pmom for someone in the health industry you seem very uninformed about some things. Maybe it is the blinder affect.
Door King
“Sexual preditors dont exist”??
Have you watched that MSNBC internet sting show?
Those guys deserve prison, dont you think?
AmWay — the idea is that because we have become this society of instant gratification, we no longer want to WAIT to get things… We want them NOW… And, if we can get it NOW, we tend to find ways to GET it… Some of which would be illegal!!
The “joint responsibility” of neighborhoods for the property of others (you know, when your mom would know you screwed up BEFORE you even got home??)
We didnt vandalize the neighbors’ yards or houses, because we sort of felt like their houses were the same as our own… Kind of like “It Takes a Village” the old African Village concept…
Is all this discussion about sex with a minor, implied consent, due to some personal concern of some of the bloggers here?
Because I really think these convictions do not contribute significantly to the number of inmates in jail.
So it must be a personal issue for a few bloggers?
http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/pub/ascii/cfjs98.txt
Good Heavens, JR
You blew .08 on a DUI test, and you blame the cop?
Hey, I have made the mistake of driving, a few times, when I should not have.
I thank God that I did not kill anyone.
You should do the same.
A DUI, without an accident, is NOTHING compared to the burden of causing a death.
Be grateful!
Your ticket for DUI might well have saved you a lifetime of misery, if you learned anything from it.
Many very good people have had a DUI.
Many very good people have died, or been injured, due to drunk drivers.
Trust me on this: your judgement, that you were “driving to carefully” is a judgement made under the the influence. That judgement, therefore, is not valid.
Police do look for people who drive too slow, and turn slowly. These are signs of a drunk driver, overcompensating.
Again, I fully deserved a DUI, at least a couple of times in my life.
The risk of a DUI helped break me of that habit.
Actually, being involved in accidents, as a passenger, and my experience, as a first responder, cured me of that habit!
Besides, we are talking here about PRISON rather than JAIL.
I think that Prison is the right place for repeat DUI offenders.
“AmWay — the idea is that because we have become this society of instant gratification, we no longer want to WAIT to get things”
Chas, I hesitated to respond to the post the first time you mentioned it, is because I didn’t want to start a war.
Our nation encourages instant gratification! Our very government tells people they are “entitled” to benefits from other citizens. We even cry (sniffle, sniffle) that our government owes us free cheese (WIC), subsidized food (foodstamps), subsidized housing (HUD program), free daycare, preschool classes, summer classes, reduced lunches, and FREE MONEY (EIC)!
We owe these people things. They no longer are encouraged to work for them. They don’t get married because it might reduce them, and they can draw free money (disability) if they don’t want to work.
“It takes a village” or “one thousand points of lights” are just words. It doesn’t take a village. My wife and I raised our children to adulthood without society teaching them values. I know we are not alone – because we have friends with kids, and my kids friends parents whom we know: and most of our kids grew up without getting into trouble. It didn’t take a village. It took a strict mom and dad with values.
Again, I didn’t want to start a battle. But IMHO, our government and some of our nations laws have had an impact on our society and likewise crime.
“I want it now. I am entitled to it. It is a right. You OWE it to me. If you don’t give it to me – I will commit crimes to get it. And when I do, society will find someone else to blame for it.”
Rightfully so, you have another opinion on this.
:-)
Look up the workd “dork” to see what it means.
If you say “door king” fast, what does it sound like?
Your nic fits you!
Pmom
You actually sound like Bonnie Huy there, a little.
(Sorry, I could not resist)
Actually, Bonnie voted for our current law, the Marriage Law that passed the Senate, came back to the House, and she voted for that Bill, which became Law.
However, Bonnie was raked over the coals for sounding an awful lot like you, pmom, on this thread.
And a society that encourages instant money; credit cards handed out to broke college students, credit cards by the dozen to everyone which allow Americans to average over $6,000 in debt, easy home loans (sub-prime) all contribute to I WANT IT NOW,
instant gratification.
Chas your father WORKED HARD to get what he got.
O.K., I’ll get off my soapbox and high horse now
and shutup.
ksgrm
Posted March 1, 2008 at 11:56 am | Permalink
Pmom for a nurse you still have the blinders on about pot. It is a gateway drug this is a known and accepted fact amoung lawmen. When that buzz isn’t enough they move up to the heavier stuff. I would like to see a poll of crack users. How many do you think smoked pot before using crack? I bet 100% or awfully close to it. Pot lowers your inhibitions and lets you do things you wouldn’t do if not under its influence.
______________________________________________
ksgrm, lets not forget that most people use alcohol before they use pot. Alcohol is the real gateway drug.
Welfare contributes to crime in several ways. First, children from single-parent families are more likely to become involved in criminal activity. According to one study, children raised in single-parent families are one-third more likely to exhibit anti-social behavior.(3) Moreover, O’Neill found that, holding other variables constant, black children from single- parent households are twice as likely to commit crimes as black children from a family where the father is present. Nearly 70 percent of juveniles in state reform institutions come from fatherless homes, as do 43 percent of prison inmates.(4) Research indicates a direct correlation between crime rates and the number of single-parent families in a neighborhood.(5)
The relationship [between single-parent families and crime] is so strong that controlling for family configuration erases the relationship between race and crime and between low income and crime. This conclusion shows up time and again in the literature. The nation’s mayors, as well as police officers, social workers, probation officers, and court officials, consistently point to family break up as the most important source of rising rates of crime.(6)
At the same time, the evidence of a link between the availability of welfare and out-of-wedlock births is overwhelming. There have been 13 major studies of the relationship between the availability of welfare benefits and out-of-wedlock birth. Of these, 11 found a statistically significant correlation. Among the best of these studies is the work done by June O’Neill for the U.S. Department of Health and Human Services. Holding constant a wide range of variables, including income, education, and urban vs. suburban setting, the study found that a 50 percent increase in the value of AFDC and foodstamp payments led to a 43 percent increase in the number of out-of-wedlock births.(7) Likewise, research by Shelley Lundberg and Robert Plotnick of the University of Washington showed that an increase in welfare benefits of $200 per month per family increased the rate of out-of-wedlock births among teenagers by 150 percent.(8)
The same results can be seen from welfare systems in other countries. For example, a recent study of the impact of Canada’s social-welfare system on family structure concluded that “providing additional benefits to single parents encourages births of children to unwed women.”(9)
http://www.cato.org/testimony/ct-wc67.html
Absent-father Epidemic
The most consequential social trend of our time is the dramatic increase in the number of children growing up in father-absent families. In 1960, this number stood at less than 10 million. Today it’s 24 million. This means that tonight, one out of every three children in America will go to bed in a home absent their father. And it’s not just that these kids are going to bed without their fathers tonight, 40 percent of children who don’t live with their fathers haven’t seen their father during the past year. And one-half have never set foot in their father’s home
Who Cares? We All Should
Studies find that children who live apart from their biological fathers are on average five to six times as likely to be poor. They are twice as likely to suffer physical or emotional neglect; to manifest emotional or behavioral disorders, including suicidal behavior; to abuse alcohol or illegal drugs; to be suspended or expelled from school or to drop out; and at least twice as likely to end up in jail. A few findings from the research:
According to a Princeton University study, “each year spent without a dad in the home increased the odds of future incarceration by 5 percent.”
According to the Bureau of Justice Statistics, 70 percent of juveniles in state reform institutions grew up in single-parent or no-parent situations, and 53 percent of state prison inmates grew up apart from their fathers. Indeed, the National Center on Fathers and Families reports that the typical male prison inmate grew up in a single-parent, mother-headed home and has at least one close relative who has been incarcerated. We hear a lot about that last factor—the father or other close relative who was in prison. But we don’t hear nearly enough about the other, interrelated factor—growing up without a dad.
http://www.reentry.gov/responsible.html
To be fair, I believe the welfare reforms enacted under President Clinton, and a republican congress actually helped LOWER single mothers on welfare. The welfare records support that when mothers were helped back to work, and forced deadbeat dads to pay support, the children of these women did committed less crime, and were/are more likely to grow up without a life of crime.
But all of this points to the critical role of a mother and father raising their children with values of hard work brings rewards in life. Not a life of crime.
Make marriage, or efforts to keep a father responsible for his children, and hopefully living with their mother – stronger and encouraged.
It is unnatural for an old person to mate with a younger person. Mate selection is intrinsically wired for selection of the healthiest male or female partner. Not some old codger.
Percentage of State prison inmates who used drugs in the month before committing crime 1997
Type of drug
Any drug 57%
Pot 39%
Coke/crack 25%
Heroin 9%
Halluci. 4%
pmom
You CAN get addicted to pot.
Psychological Addiction is actually much stronger than Physical Addiction.
(And I am a “moderate” on the pot issue)
Wow the stupidity here is simply amazing. ksgrm, I’m guessing you’ve never done pot. I have, it’s NOT a big deal. And I’m not a heroin user now. So whatever. I also know most people who used pot never went on to become these bigtime criminals. I’ll bet most people had a cigarette before using big drugs too, and caffeine!
There is no such thing as pot addiction, no matter what the federal govt tells you. They also claim mercury in shots isn’t harmful, and not every cow should be inspected for mad cow.
Your blind allegience to whatever the bible and the Govt tells you is silly. Pot is like everything else, if you use too much of it, it’s not good.
As far as prison, Econ leaves out something important in his post awhile back..find a job. Perhaps the dude coudln’t find a job that’s why he’s digging in some guy’s basement for copper wire. again, poverty.
This whole thing about in America you can be anything you want to be needs to be looked at harder. If you look at the way things were back in the old days, you COULD work your way up the ladder with good old fashioned hard work. That’s not so for SO many people today, it’s creating a whole class of people who are fed up and desperate. You’ve got a whole class of people who work hard only to be passed up for the next spot because someone had the money to go to College, even if they have half the brain you do.
Perhaps that’s where we should look first. When we get back to a culture where hard work is rewarded, then perhaps, we’ll see less of this depression and desperation.
“American Way” –
“Welfare,” which is basically “Aid to Dependent Children” is a program that combines the best of liberal thought with the worst of conservatism.
“Welfare,” which is essentiallly “Aid to Dependent Children” was based on an early New Deal program designed for coal miners’ widows.
Loretta Lynn’s story isn’t unique. 14-years-old, with a kid or two and married to a guy with a good chance of dying in the coal mines. The 14-year-old widow had no education or resources to get one, a kid or two, and no way out.
“Welfare” based on the coal miners’ widows’ program seemed, at the time, to be the basis for Aid to Dependent Children programs outside of coal mine territory; but it had been established. “Why reinvent the weheel?” and all that. A good “conservative” concept.
Since the program was based on widows’ benefits, the absence of a father was assumed. In many cases, a father abandoning his family was the best way he could provide for them. Ironic, huh?
It’s the old Law of Unintended Results in play.
F’r sure, just about every “welfare” program is likely to be abused by a few, but the basic philosophy has to be that we as a society have no right to deny basic rights and services from people simply because they picked the wrong parents.
pmom
The guy on work release was not hungry.
He had been in prison, for some time, prior to work release.
Exactly what wolf was at the door, to force that poor soul to climb under someone’s house and look for copper pipe?
EVERYTHING under the sun can cause a psychologically dependency….from someone who throws up dinner to be thin, to probably every single one of us that posts on this board daily….and I don’t see anyone here advocating making the internet illegal.
I can prove it…show of hands, who doesn’t get irritable when their internet service is down?
This figure is something to be proud of. Imagine those thousands of dangerous pot smokers we got off the streets who were threatening to tear into a bag of Doritoes and leave cheese finger prints on door knobs.
Republicans wanted to be “tough on crime” (exception being corporate crime of course) since it meant that taxpayers would have to foot the bill.
Reason #2306 why Republicans are bad for this country.
Doug,
So now we aren’t discussing the large prison population and the contributing factors? Now you want to turn yet another thread into the evil republicans versus the nasty democrats?
Is that what you want?
O.K.. just asking.
There is NO state where consensual sex is allowable in the United States
Now there’s a broad statement, Chas.
It is unnatural for an old person to mate with a younger person.
Go to some other country and look around. Many central American women prefer much older mates because they bring with them status, and in additon, they’re not so hard on them. I’d agree, really old men with really young women is rare, still, we have Anna Nichole, so don’t tell me it’s unnatural. 61 percent of American women in their 30s say they would marry for money.
Oh so f–king sorry Amway, I guess I have to talk about whatever you want to talk about. A–hole.
Here’s some Bush prison legacy Republicans should be proud about:
http://www.wired.com/science/discoveries/multimedia/2008/02/gallery_abu_ghraib
Republicans helped create the problem and it’s up to the adults (Democrats) to fix another one of their blunders.
There is no such thing as pot addiction, no matter what the federal govt tells you. They also claim mercury in shots isn’t harmful, and not every cow should be inspected for mad cow.
Yes there is. I’ve been addicted to it. You have physical withdrawal symptoms and a sense of loss for months afterwards. The symptoms include night sweats, intense dreaming and sleep interruptions. I was almost classic, when I compared my symptoms to those in New Scientist.
What is true is that you don’t get withdrawal symptoms if you only use pot infrequently, or if you limit daily use to a week or so. The more you smoke it, the worse is the withdrawal.
Here’s something you guys will really go nuts with. You can use pot to do things that you can’t do otherwise, especially musical things, and you can quit it when you want to do other things you can’t do as well with it. I do it all the time. Pot and learning languages is bad; Pot and learning a new Ray Wiley Hubbard song is good.
Your blind allegience to whatever the bible and the Govt tells you is silly. Pot is like everything else, if you use too much of it, it’s not good.
pmom
_______________________________________________
Your awesome pmom, I’m glad somebody else on here realizes that moderation and personal responsibility are the key issues when it come to using substances.
Does anyone have a drink once in awhile? Yea, well I’m sure most everyone on here knows that drinking alcohol in social situations is only fun if you do it once in awhile, key word “moderation”, and one of my points is that every substance is different and shouldn’t be labled under an umberella term that all drugs are bad and dangerous. I believe comparing alcohol to heroin is like comparing apples to oranges, the same with pot and alcohol, they are two completly differnt drugs. Alcohol is clearly more dangerous to people that have substance abuse tendencies than pot, but pot has a more negative social stigma, I’m also saying that pot can cause people just as much problems as alcohol if they abuse it, but the problems are less life threatening, they are just a differnt set of problems.
It is a gateway drug this is a known and accepted fact amoung lawmen.
sorry grandma. It’s a known and accepted lie among lawmen. There is no way to correlate pot use to use of harder drugs latter because scientifically, you can’t separate the pot use from alcohol use, or for that matter, drinking water.
Did you know that every single heroin addict started out on air, food and water? But you won’t be able to see the point.
How about alcohol dipshits? The fu cking pope syas that’s alright, so therefore, God says it’s alright. The Pope and all of you insane Catholics are ALL alky’s. Talk about a “gateway” drug. Your church is precisely that. An opiate for the masses. Television is a “gateway” drug. Name brand clothes, another “gateway” drug.
This place was fun while it lasted.
Mercury isn’t in shots, ethylmercury is. Completely different and absolutely safe.
Funny thing about governmental pot research. They financed studies which concluded that pot smoking can reduce the size of brain tumors. Naturally such studies were quashed.
The stupid Republican war on drugs spends billions to convince people that smoking the pot they grow in their basement will kill judges in Columbia. So utterly laughable yet we still have to spend billions to prosecute and incarcerate non-violent pot smokers. Whatever gets the Republican pin wearing beating their chests.
Door, there is no way you were addicted unless YOU WANTED TO BE or thought you were. It’s all in your head.
Explain then why me, and most of the people I know used it for a year or more, and quit with no sort of withdrawal at all?
It just came to a point where the risk was not worth it, we chose to stop. Not even close to the same as smoking cigarettes.
Because I really think these convictions do not contribute significantly to the number of inmates in jail.
I would agree that such incidents probably account for less than half of those imprisoned for sex offenses. The majority of such incidents are never prosecuted because they take place between consensual sexual adults behind closed doors and no one ever talks about it much. Ah, but when mom walks in, the s hits the fan. But you don’t know, and I don’t know. However, if you can just get those abortion records, that will all change, won’t it.
Another point. Canada has a Justice system based on ration; we have one based on retribution. It can only get worse.
Yep, Pleefer. They make me crazy too. They stink up the nest with their shit, and refuse to admit they made the smell.
Thiomersal Look on the insert of you flu vaccine, see if it uses Thimerosol, betcha it does.
Wow! I see the discussion topic of record numbers of Americans in jail has degenerated into a discussion of individual’s criminal cases.
It’s because conservatives have been in power too much and have based the system on retribution, and for you there’s not enough retribution on earth to go around, so you extend it past death. That’s why.
O.K., now let’s get a list of controlled substances that bloggers feel should be legalized to cut down on the number of inmates in US jails. How will that reduce violent crime, the biggest numbers?
NOt the biggest numbers. Your numbers only apply to State prison inmates, and hidden in those numbers relating to violence are the sex crimes, many of which have nothing to do with violence.
Damn right. I used to have ZERO tolerance for “pinko lefties”, but now I see that the REAL enemy of all that is good in this country are The Christian “Right” whom are almost always wrong on everything. I still can’t stomache the socialists, but these repugnicans are equally useless. As much as they believe they are right and just, I’d bet God hates them…heh.
Corporate crime costs a lot more than violent crime does but corporate criminals are simply fined, or released while violent criminals will spend years behind bars. One guy is facing life in prison for failing to pay for a 50 cent doughnut, but Exxon got away scot free after spilling thousands of gallons of oil on the shores of Alaska. Riding the rail system is dangerous because in order to save on costs the rail companies cut back on maintence. But shoplift a pack of gum from a 7-11 and you could face five years in prison.
The first step is to get rid of mandatory sentencing. The second is to give pardons to those who haven’t committed real crimes in order to reduce the prison population. A real improvement was the Supreme Court decision that said it was illegal to prosecute people who used crack cocaine at different rates that powder coke users. As a result many people are being let out of prison which is helping solve this problem. Naturally the Republicans were upset because they think problems disappear once the cell door closes.
Door, there is no way you were addicted unless YOU WANTED TO BE or thought you were. It’s all in your head.
Read new scientist and come back to me later. And as far as it being all in my head, well, everything is, isn’t it. Pot is addictive. pure and simple. You have to smoke it for a long time, and smoke a lot of it, but it is. When you don’t have any, you really want it bad, and think about it most of the time. The way out is to exhaust one’s self with work. But you sweat like a pig at night (do pigs sweat), and you have the most wonderful intense dreams when you can sleep. Almost makes up for the downside. I would estimate my sleep falls to two or three hours a night during the first week, but since I sleep about 40 percent more when I smoke, i suppose that’s a wash. Its not people lying to you that is our problem. It’s when we lie to ourselves.
Pleefer
The ATU Unit at Via Christi St. Joseph does great work.
Thats “alcohol treatment unit”.
What I’m speaking about here is the law. What is illegal and what is legal. I revert back to the old Dragnet series. Friday was always against drugs because they were illegal. His wording was always if you don’t like the law then go about changing it, make it legal if you can get a majority to follow you and make the change to the law. Don’t break the law SIMPLY because you don’t agree with it or don’t like it, CHANGE IT.
That would be possible in a free and democratic society, but this one isn’t. Majorities in many states favor legalization. When humane legalization occurs, the Feds bust the users and suppliers. Remember the average age in the Senate, is what, like 90?
pmom
Mental Illness is “all in your head” as well.
To say that addiction is “all in your head” rather misses the point.
Psychological addiction is stronger than physical addiction.
Look at all the alcoholics that go through DT’s (awful experience, I know a few who have been through it). After detox, after all physical addiction symptoms were over, they STILL went back to alcohol! Psychological addiction is more powerful than physical addiction.
Look at Cocaine and crack. Physical withdrawal symptoms are not very bad. However, I would not want to get between a crack head and a crack pipe, without a gun in my hand!
How many Heroine addicts go through withdrawal symptoms, get “clean” and then go BACK to being a junkie?
WHY do kids prefer to go out and get HIGH, instead of play ball till sundown?? WHY would kids prefer to sit in front of a giant TV screen and play video games, instead of going out “roller skating” or playing mini-golf like back in the day??
Another misconception Chas. The prefer to get high AND play ball until sundown. Pot with frisbee is one of the most sublime things a person will ever experience. And contrary to popular belief, pot may adversely affect motor skills, but it can increase concentration and timing. Ask a snowboarder.
Either need for markedly increased amounts of marijuana to achieve intoxication, or markedly diminished effect with continued use of the same amount of marijuana.
Wrong. Tolerance develops and levels off. That is, you get a real kick in the butt when you haven’t had it for a while. If you have a good supply, you’ll reach a constant dosage over time, and it will have the same affect every day. You don’t smoke more and more every day as long as you have it. Take a toke or two in the morning, play guitar for ten hours, take a toke at bedtime, sleep 14. Bliss.
There are a lot of reasons we have crime. The one-size-fits-all prison system adequately addresses none of them. It’s a swiss army knife approach; it’s expected to do a lot of jobs, but does none of them very well.
We aren’t going to solve the problem of crime until we start addressing the various causes. Some crime is based in the culture of poverty, some in ignorance, some in insanity, some in agressiveness in its many and varied forms, some in sexual desires, some in various ideologies of hatred, most in combinations of the above. Until we start solving the causes, crime will always be with us and no amount of new or better prisons or longer sentences will stop it. We should have learned that lesson long ago.
Door King
“Sexual preditors dont exist”??
Have you watched that MSNBC internet sting show?
Those guys deserve prison, dont you think?
No, they dont deserve prison. I’ll bet that among all of those arrested, less than ten percent ever had sex with an underaged girl. It’s back to what I said. When a female, any female of whatever age offers herself, males will respond, any male, including under the right circumstances, yourself. You might not consumate the act, but you’ll think about it.
Wiki on addiction:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Addiction
Okay, Pot is a drug. Pot can do great harm to people. Pot is also, probably, not as harmful as alcohol. Is that, alone, justification for full legalization of pot or marijuana?
On the other hand, Marijuana is a weed.
Walmart and Lowes and many other stores sell chemicals designed to kill crabgrass and dandelions and other weeds.
We have had a “war on dandelions” for generations. How is that working?
One of the most harmful things kids can do is “huffing” or inhaling harmful chemicals, found legally all over the place. Model cement, fuel additives, gasoline, benzine, paint thinners and other petroleum products.
We can not make those substances illegal. We need them too much, in our daily lives.
It is a tough question.
However, without stating it up front, this is how our government handles these issues:
If you are a parent, and you find yourself in trouble with the SRS, you will undergo drug testing.
If you test positive or alcohol, model cement, marijuana or crack, you will have trouble getting full custody of your kids back, anytime soon.
However, if you get pulled over, on the Kansas Turnpike, with 10 lbs of marijuana in your trunk — and your kids are not with you — the SRS will probably never be involed in your case.
In other words, if there is evidence or suspicion that you are a “bad parent” or that your children are “in need of care” or “at risk” — your personal life becomes an issue.
But, if your kids are not, physically with you, when you get busted, your kids probably won’t be taken from you, by the SRS.
This is not to say that children are not affected, in EVERY case, by the drug use decisions of their parents.
However, we seem to have an unwritten policy in that regard.
(I think that kids being raised anywhere near a “meth lab” should be removed, no matter where they are at the time of the bust. That is as unsafe as any enviornment can get.)
Smoking and frisbee were my favorite outdoor activites (next to low-impact camping).And I’m not the fool who just stands there waiting for it to come to me, I get into that crap. Running and diving and all that. Beautiful day today.
Door King
Some of the guys, on that MSNBC internet sting show, have driven 3 or 5 or more hours, to get to the underage girls.
Some of them have been arrested, previously, for similar things.
How on Earth do you pull out a figure like “only 10% would follow through”)
That is absurd.
Those guys are dangerous.
(BTW, be sure and wave and say “hellow WeBlogers” if you are ever a star attraction, ok?)
Pall,
“How many Heroine addicts go through withdrawal symptoms, get “clean” and then go BACK to being a junkie?”
Obviously because it solves a problem that was there long before the addiction. The fact that opiates are pain relievers should give you a hint as to why people use them- they want to stop hurting! Often there are better solutions, but those solutions aren’t readily available to everyone. Sometimes there isn’t any other way short of suicide to not be in constant pain. Have a heart!
Wow good posts here, until Doug came around.
AmWay you about covered my view here. Blaming Society is a scapegoat.
Are we all fatalistic now? Do individuals not control their own actions. The environment is to blame? Poverty is to blame?
Ok, then if all those questions are true, there is nothing we can do about it. And everyone in a broken home, or in poverty breaks the law, commits felonies, and goes to jail.
What?
Not everyone in those circumstances breaks the law and goes to jail?
Then there must be a choice for certain individuals. Some choose to break the law, others do not.
Those prison conditions in China and Europe, what are they like? Ya think they get 3 squares a day, TV, Computers, Internet, and one hour of daily free time for exercise, and no hard labor?
Oh, and what are the crime rates in those other countries? Could it be the criminals in other countries are not caught as frequently as they are here?
Publik Edukation, yeah, where has that gotten us? Maybe we throw more money to the same teachers and expect different results?
We need private vouchers to bring competition into play to improve education. We need to enforce the law, build more prisons if needed, and make prison life bearly bearable.
And then we need to ensure people are free to pursuit happiness and that Government does not penalize people for being successful.
We tax the hell out of the successful. And we set-up a welfare system to encourage people to be on welfare. Insanity.
Econ 101
How on Earth do you pull out a figure like “only 10% would follow through”)
That is absurd.
I didn’t say that bitch. I said it’s unlikely that 10 pecent of those arrested had ever had sex with an underaged girl. The only reason they were there is that they thought they were going to score. In addition, some may drive hours, but the show moves from town to town to dredge up the local losers. If you had some pot, you could think more clearly.
Do you want the url of the yahoo teen chats?
And you want to end the war on drugs? Or forget about it?
Seal the borders. Stops illegal immigrants, terrorists, and drug imports.
Mandatory drug testing for employment and welfare. You test positive you are entitled to one re-test. Then you lose your job for 6 months with no welfare. You may live in a group tent in Arizona and get food, shelter, and clothing for 6 months. You get no welfare.
You test positive a 2nd time, you go to a real jail for 12 months.
A 3rd time, 36 months.
A 4th time, 36 more months.
A 5th time, 36 more months.
A 6th time, 10 years.
A 7th time, 10 years.
A 8th time, 10 years.
A 9th time, 10 years.
A 10th time, you go to the prison nursing home until you die.
Drug Dealers:
1st Offense: 10 years jail, hard labor.
2nd Offense: 15 years jail, hard labor.
3rd Offense: 25 years jail, hard labor.
4th Offense: Death sentence.
There will always be the good farmer who can grow a mean crop of kibs. So who needs that Mexican schwag shit? Or their friggin meth. BTW, I’m all for Meth cookers getting violent crime charges put on them…all for it.
I’m all for lquor store owners getting the death penalty.
liquor
third time Max, because we wouldn’t do what you say, and you give us no alternatives, we machine gun your ass. You’ve completely removed ration from the equation. Check out Mexico if you want to see what happens under such circumstances. Four pigs lying bloated in the sun is a beautiful sight to some people. That’s what happens when the laws are unjust. People get even. Why not.
Door King
Not what you said? Perhaps, but if it is not what you meant, what DID you mean?
You think that, maybe, 10% of the guys captured on that show have had illegal sex with minors, previously?
Well then, please understand that MANY of them actually violated the law, online, with someone they thought to be a minor, prior to ever trying to meet that decoy.
I once heard about a guy that was a pedophile. He moved out to the boonies, away from kids, and tried to avoid them. The U. S. Postal Service bombarded the guy with “kiddie porn” solicitations in the U.S. Mail. he finally “bit” and had to go to Court. I think he had a good case of “entrapment” in that he would not have done it, if not given the intense pressure of the government, sending him dozens of offers. I forget how that case turned out. My point is only that THIS perv tried to control himself, never tried to meet an actual kid, in this case, and had a stronger case than the guy caught on MSNBC.
These guys intentionally SEARCH for teens. These guys proposition these underage girls, in very specific terms.
Sorry, they belong in jail.
Your arguments are telling, however.
You first claim that interenet preditors don’t exist.
Then, given well known evidence of their existence on the MSNBC “Preditors” show, you then defend these guys, and say that what they are doing is not predatory.
Well, if you don’t think that it it wrong, that does not mean that it does not exist.
The biggest chomo’s out there are Republican Senators and Catholic Priests.
Door King
So that weed makes you all laid back?
But you LIKE to see “dead pigs roasting in the sun”?
“Four pigs lying bloated in the sun is a beautiful sight to some people. That’s what happens when the laws are unjust. People get even. Why not.”
YOU, alone, do not get to decide our laws.
You are an anarchist.
Gosh, you pot smokers are so peaceful, unless we threaten your “stash” lol.
Pleefer
The percantage of Catholic Priests in trouble for sexual misconduct, in the last 10 years, is less than 1% of the total Priesthood.
Also, most of the Catholic Priest problem has been with teenage boys. Many, perhaps most of those boys over the age of 14. Yes, it is still wrong.
However, the Boyscouts got sued for not allowing Gay Scoutmasters.
The Catholic Church is getting sued for ALLOWING Gay Priests to have contact with teenage boys.
“Would Jesus shoot someone in the head for stealing a camera?
You are a Nutzi Mary!”
“Are you seriously suggesting we should emulate the Chinese, Mary?”
No….I’m just pointing out that there is a REASON why the Chinese have fewer prionsers in their system than we do.
I’m not advocating barbarism…but many of our prisons are better than the environments that many inmates grew up in.
I went to Palau a year ago and had the opportunity to tour the local prison…the inmates had to support their families with the art work they learned to make and the ones that could be somewhat trusted were allowed to fish for everyone’s dinner. I know we can’t do anything like that here, but encouraging people to take responsibility for their actions and their lives in general would be a start…and making prisons less like living in college dorm might help, also.
No, unless we are threatened with imprisonment for nothing, Dolt. And I’m not smoking pot this month. If I were, I would be playing “As my guitar gently weeps.” What max is talking about is 1984ish draconian punishment for not doing what he sees as moral.
What you people advocate leads to anarchy or revolution, because at some point, people have nothing left to lose.
And by the way, a few bloated corpses in the sun did more to reform the Mex system than any legislation. It’s called the law of cousins.
And Barney Frank too.
The percantage of Catholic Priests in trouble for sexual misconduct, in the last 10 years, is less than 1% of the total Priesthood.
Yet every single one of them practiced some sort of sexual conduct, even if only while sleeping.
1% have been caught. 99% are very good at it. I just pulled my kid out of the scouts. That organization is a far cry from what it was when I was a Life Scout.
“Studies show the younger girls commence sex once sexually mature, the better adjusted and more successful they are later in life. The age of the partner is irrelevant. A consensual sex partner suffers no harm given protection, and in many ways gains benefits. Not only that, many young women (they are not children but fully functioning sexual beings) prefer older men.”
Are you F**KING nuts, Door King!!!???!!!
What a bunch of BULLSH*T!!!!!
There would be no problems if the Catholics would let the priests be married.
No. those people don’t belong in jail. They didn’t hurt anyone. See, The deal is, if you don’t hurt anyone, you don’t belong in jail. See, the decoys are adults. And some judges have agreed. How can there be a sex crime when everyone involved is an adult? You are prosecuting men for what the “think.” If we were prosecuted for the crimes we thought of we’d all be in jail.
Yeah, the whole pediphile thing creeps me out. But I suppose in other culture’s the girls are forcibly married at their first menstration (but those are the same culture’s that cut the “woman’s” clitoris off too).
pedophile
Yes, Mary, the truth is always bullshit to you people because it doesn’t match up with you ideas of morality. What is bullshit is your morality. I can find about a dozen more studies that say the same thing. Sex is a part of a healthy life mental life. Without it, we go nuts.
Of course, when we have it, we still go nuts. Oh well.
How do you think Johnny depp would do at the junior high, Mary?
See, everything you believe is bullcrap.
Keep the under 16s away from Door King folks, he doesn’t see any harm in having sex with them.
“The Catholic Church is getting sued for ALLOWING Gay Priests to have contact with teenage boys.”
No, it is for allowing the IMPROPER contact. That is a different thing.
“if you don’t hurt anyone, you don’t belong in jail.”
So, if I shoot at someone but miss I get a free pass? I DON’T THINK SO!
These internet predators who get ’stung’ deserve their jail time.
All of you, I’m sure, have heard of The Franklin Cover-up right? Bushco is a VERY conservative organization. Truly God-fearing, fine folks. Yet, we still allow those wolves to shepard the flock. heheheheh.
“Almost ALL offenders are dangerous”
How is a guy sitting at home smoking a joint dangerous?
It’s been said afore, you don’t get into positions of power w/o something to hang over your head.
Some very interesting comments posted today. I think that people only get upset when an issue affects their personal finances. No wonder so many Kansans are frustrated with their local, state & federal government and are venting their frustration on morality or cultural war issues.
Due to the break down of marriage and the extended family, troubled citizens do not any source of emotional or spiritual support to discourage them from breaking the law. The religious organizations in Wichita are not helping. Instead they act like hogs at government public funds trough seeking faith based initiative funding to try to build up their empires. There is an article in today’s Eagle about the Sisters at Newman University having a symposium on human trafficking. The Sisters should be commended as the teenaged prostitution is a very serious problem. Unfortunately the article went n to quote an “expert” social worker who stated that she hoped that the meeting would help educate the public so know what additional resources are needed. It’s mind boggling how many Kansans are employed at tax payer’s expense in non-profits, local & state government agencies trying to mitigate the effects of evil. Washburn Univ. actually has a graduate program to become a certified Professional Victim Advocate?
I’m all for fining first time pot or dui offenders out the gazoo. I all for zero tolerance for domestic abusers by making them serve 4 week ends in a minimum security jail. However the state needs to focus its attention on punishing & incarcerating criminals. Let the Wichita churches or the Garvey or Koch families raise the funds for the social service programs. If they are effective, they will be supported with out government funding.
I don’t think that Kansas can afford a nanny government of do-gooders. I also think that our wimpy religious leaders would be more likely to speak out agaisnt government corruption if their pet projects were not dependent on government funding. It’s so easy for our reigious leaders to then to avoid using any of their own political capital and to keep their talents buried in the ground when they can use tax payer’s money. However that really doesn’t count as charity does it?
Bill McKean
kiakahahaha@yahoo.com
293-6079
These internet predators who get ’stung’ deserve their jail time.
Without an adult at the other end of the line skilled at leading them toward the desired conclusion, there would be no crime. As for the “shooting” at someone analogy, fair and good. At least there is an intent to harm. In the case of consenting sex between sexual adults, there is no harm and no intent to harm. Your analogy sucks.
And by the way, the charge for discharging the firearm and missing, without proof of intent to shoot someone, is discharging a firearm within city limits, a rinky dink misdemeanor.
Sursum/Kev We had much more severe laws on the books for youth crime in 1900 with a higher rate in incarceration. The youth laws were changed reflecting the concept of bringing the child to participate in society not punishment. The rate of repeats dropped. North American Indians felt that a child in trouble was an illness of society that must be treated not punished but that good intent has been prostitued by lawyers and recently the Feds have brought in tougher sentencing criteria. A 14 year old is now street smart way beyond his years and his “innocence” is no longer a given. What troubles me is that one segment of society, mostly Jamacian living with half-siblings in single parent homes many on welfare, having a 40% school drop out rate, is causing the revisions and kids in general will now suffer. But that does not speak to the overall difference in prison population percentages. Haven’t got an answer to that….
OOOPS that should read 1990, not 1900, big typo there!
Parents keep allowing their 13 and 14 year olds to wear Britney, Blohan and Paris Hilton clothes, they will get what they deserve. Be it rape, another baby in the family or maybe both. Maybe multiple abortions by a family of “good Christians” that couldn’t bear the embarrassment of their “nice” girl-next-door 13 year old having a kid?
Due to the break down of marriage and the extended family, troubled citizens do not any source of emotional or spiritual support to discourage them from breaking the law
Sorry, the laws are such that it is impossible to lead a normal life without breaking them. Our natural desires are illegal. Being human has become against the law.
Now that said, the vast majority of people never violate any serious law, like stealing, or raping, or beating the crap out of someone. But what about simply running the dogs and having a beer, or smoking a simple joint? Or for that matter, being 18 and having a beer with a friend. See what I mean. Who can respect crap like that? And then, why respect any of it.
How about making a little profit on a used car you fix up, and sell to a neighbor for cash. Illegal. You didn’t report the income. I’m damned sure the ECON 101s in this room have a vastly different attitude toward obeying the taxation laws than they do in regards to obeying our stupid moral laws.
Again. If no one is hurt, there is no crime. That should be the law of the land.
If they are trolling to get an underage child for sex there IS an intent to commit a crime. If, on the other hand, I go to Old Town to pick up a chick (of age) then I agree – no crime.
Since when is fixing up a used car and selling it illegal?
Reporting the income of course should be done.
This is the same for the farm house that raises various fruits and veggies, sells them and gets a profit. That’s reportable income if it meets the requirements under minimum income (3000.00?)
I all for zero tolerance for domestic abusers by making them serve 4 week ends in a minimum security jail.
Right, same old crap. Who supports the kids while the dad is in the minimum security jail. BTW: Domestic abuse charges are among the most abused since they often are levied on the word of the person who claims abuse. They turn out to be crap as often as they turn out to be true. No abuse charges without injury.
A couple of people here seem to have correlation and causation confused, particularly when talking about marijuana as a “gateway drug”. Yes, it is a gateway drug in the sense that someone who uses pot is more likely to move onto harder drugs. Of course, most people who first try drugs do it as teenagers, so alcohol and tobacco are illegal drugs as well. And, big surprise, they are also predictive of further drug use.
But is it the initial drug use which causes people and particularly kids to move onto harder drugs? Actually, it is arguably more likely that a kid’s willingness to try “gateway” drugs in the first place is indicative of the kind of pre-existing recklessness that leads to trying harder drugs. Thus, the gateway drug argument is a poor argument either against locking up marijuana smokers or dealers and throwing away the key, or legalizing marijuana.
If they are trolling to get an underage child for sex there IS an intent to commit a crime
There may be intent, but when entrapped by an adult operator, there may also be no crime. The courts are deciding this in several states as we speak. And intent to commit a crime is not a crime. I may drive to the bank with the shotgun in the trunk, but if I chicken out, I’m merely carrying a shotgun. YOu do not know what is in my mind.
Yeah Door King,
Go ahead test out your theories. You can write us from prison how it turned out. :)
Well you can go to jail for conspiracy but they have to have physical proof, or at least an eyewitness.
What those to Catch a Predator shows, they do have proof, they keep transcripts of conversations typed over the internet, so they can’t get in trouble for the actual crime if they didn’t commit it, but they can recieve a lesser sentence of conspiring to have sex with a minor if their is substantial evidence.
Pleefer, please take a chill pill man, your starting to sound like an extremist of some sort. Either lay off the coffee, or the pot, or both.
Go ahead test out your theories. You can write us from prison how it turned out.
O.K. So its a crime to drive by a bank with a shotgun in the trunk of your car?
Well you can go to jail for conspiracy but they have to have physical proof, or at least an eyewitness.
And a co-conspirator, at least until recently.
Obviously not all respect the law.
Some would advocate child molesting and legalized dope for everyone. If it feels good to them.
Enforcing the law is not a moral decision. It’s well, the law. It’s something a civilized society chooses to do in order to govern themselves and protect people from harming each other.
No point in having unenforced laws is there?
What those to Catch a Predator shows, they do have proof, they keep transcripts of conversations typed over the internet, so they can’t get in trouble for the actual crime if they didn’t commit it, but they can recieve a lesser sentence of conspiring to have sex with a minor if their is substantial evidence.
Who did they conspire with. You can’t conspire with yourself, and if the co-conspirator is the victim, and the victim is not realy the victim but a decoy, you should be able to see the problem. Again, they are charging you for what you “think” even if it is false.
Another of these crimes is child pornography, when no child is involved. Such as a realistic drawing. Who is the victim in these cases?
Enforcing the law is not a moral decision. It’s well, the law. It’s something a civilized society chooses to do in order to govern themselves and protect people from harming each other.
Deporting and murdering the Jews was legal, Max. As is arresting a million pot smokers and a million drunks each and every year.
And in these cases we’ve been discussing, no child was ever involved, just a “legal” child, not a biological one. But you can’t see the problem. It’s the laws you rever, except of course, when they should hinder something that you want to do, like keeping every single bloody cent that ever passed through your hands in tax free ectasy.
Door King
Posted March 1, 2008 at 4:28 pm | Permalink
Another of these crimes is child pornography, when no child is involved. Such as a realistic drawing. Who is the victim in these cases?
================================================
DK, you are one sick SOB.
That child posing for the pictures you look at is the victim.
I the vast majority of people have no problem going through life without breaking any laws, except for speeding and parking tickets.
And raking a little out of the register without telling the taxman, eh Max?
BTW: I’ve never gotten a parking ticket.
Only you DK would compare drug use with murder.
Again, you are a sick freak and sorry assed excuse for a human being.
Never cheated the IRS. They are the most powerful agency in US Government.
You may get by with molesting kids, but you don’t get a pass for screwing with the IRS.
Damn it I missed too much..except PAUL, GAY and PEDOPHILE are NOT THE SAME DAMN THING.
Say it over and over again till you can figure it out.
AmWay >>>>
” My wife and I raised our children to adulthood without society teaching them values. I know we are not alone – because we have friends with kids, and my kids friends parents whom we know: and most of our kids grew up without getting into trouble. It didn’t take a village.”
That IS the Village I am talking about… The society doesnt teach values… But the “village” working together, as you point out, re-inforces what is taught at home…
Parents and kids and other people in the community all working together, raising the children…
Families working together instill the values of the community in the kids… And the kids grow up pretty good!!
Take away that community effect, and kids will wander “aimlessly” as it were, without direction or guidance from anywhere!!
Ummm folks… as I understand it, most of those Priests who molested the young boys, less than 1% of all priests were/are involved…. Those priests are NOT Gay Priests!! MOST are quite heterosexual… Of course you can argue about what effect allowing priests to marry… but that part of the equation doesnt really play much of a role in Pedofile priests…
The Church has its own set of problems to deal with on all of those situations… And I think, as I understand it, they are diligently working on the problem…
Remind me to keep my grandaughter away from you, DK. Where are these “studies” that show the younger a girl has sex, the more successful she’ll be? And I want links to something other than the “National Pervert and Pedophile News”. You ARE one sick F*CK if you get sexually aroused by a 12 or a 13 yr old.
I hope you’re registered so we can know where you live.
BTW, For the rest of you, here’s a link if you want to know where all the pervs live around your neighborhood:
http://www.FamilyWatchDog.us
The IRS are indeed the “most powerful agency” in our government. They are however, the most illegal and corrupt piece of bureaucratic dog shit agency we have in our already corrupt and criminal government.
And yeah, I guess I am an “extremist”. I’m extremely pissed off at the apathy and lackadaisical attitude of our population. Either they are too “smart” to know that they could never be taken advantage of or else too they are too stupid to know that they are.
Go on people, pop another Zoloft, Celexa, Cipramil, Emocal, Sepram, Seropram, Lexapro, Cipralex, Esertia, Prozac, Fontex, Seromex, Seronil, Sarafem, Fluctin, Luvox, Faverin, Paxil, Seroxat, Aropax, Deroxat, Rexetin, Xetanor, Paroxat, Lustral or Serlain and feel better about getting drugs off of the streets.
Fu cking useless druggies.
Agree with your assessment of the IRS Pleefer. They have way too much power.
And Mary, those registration lists are only accurate if the offenders update the authorities whenever they move.
How often you think they do that? I don’t trust our Government to track the child molestors.
Still, it’s pretty scary to see how many red dots are in almost every neighborhood.
And Door King gets the “MonkeyHawk Award for being and ass” today.
Normal people do not get sexually turned on by a preteen.
pmoma
YES, I agree, “Gay” and “Pedophile” are NOT the same thing.
Is it really correct to say that someone who has sex with 14,15 and 16 year old boys is a “pedophile” per say? They are criminals, this is true.
However, the “pedophile” label fits more squarely on those who target younger victims.
Most of the sexual abuse cases, in the Catholic Priesthood (involving 1% of total Priests) have been with sexually developed “young men” — boys who could probably get a girl pregnant.
Illegal? YES, A horrible breach of trust? YES!
However, you can not say, with a straight face, that a Priest who has sex with a 15 year old boy is NOT a homosexual, or at least bi-sexual, can you?
Pmom, I am trying to defend the Priesthood, I am not trying to bash gays, in general.
I do not think it would be wise for male couches to moniter the showers in a female High School locker room.
Likewise, I do not think it would be wise for female coaches to monitor the showers in a male High School locker room.
You should avoid adolescents that you might be sexually attracted to. Such should be kept seperate.
Same for Gays. I am not being the least bit discriminatory.
male couch potato here. I meant male coaches of course.
Oh yea, HOOF, ya cant get married in Iowa at age 12 either!! What parallel universe did you pop in here from?? I dont even think the sock puppets will support your perverted A$$ on this subject!! LOL
No, I don’t think you can assign hetero or homo to a sexual predator. Many hetero males abuse boys. Now sure, if they were turned on by men, why not just be gay? There have been a few studies on this, but it is surprisingly opposite as you’d think. Many go for the opposite sex…I dunno if its a developmental thing, or they think it’s less worse or something.
I meant to say same sex, even though they identify themselves as heterosexual.
Econ, actually, a number of those priests were caught “doing” 9 & 10 yr old altar boys… Those arent exactly sexually developed young men… And IF you will do some research on pedophiles, nearly ALL of them are heterosexual males… They have a perversion!!
They hit on younger boys!! Go look it up!! And yes, there are gay priests… but the overwhelming majority of the ones sexually abusing kids, are NOT gay!!
Chas and Pmom
If a priest has a history of abusing, say, 12 KNOWN underage victims, and ALL of those victims were boys, is that Priest not, at least, a “pedophile attracted to the same sex” — The term “Homosexual Pedophile” would seem to fit, would it not?
Isnt it amazing how Door King AND Hoof Hearted just sort of disappeared?? And how Hoof Hearted attacked me primarily on a different subject matter entirely?? Interesting!!
NO Econ, it would not fit… A Pedophile is most of the time NOT a homosexual… A Pedophile goes after boys… but is NOT a homosexual… In fact, many of them are married with children… They are just WACKO Econ… Now — there might be one or two floating around out there that are Gay… but that isnt what the preponderence of the literature has to say on it…
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pedophilia
Pedophilia or paedophilia (Commonwealth usage) is the primary or exclusive sexual attraction by adults to prepubescent children. A person with this attraction is called a pedophile or paedophile”
—–
In other words, if they are in puberty, or later, it is not, clinically, “pedophilia” — sick and illegal, yes, but not pedophilia.
And, a great many sex abuse cases are with boys in puberty.
I think, if the history is there that a person is attracted to people of the same sex, while in puberty, then it is fair to say that the abuser is a homosexual attracted to underage boys.
Door King
By the way, the only people treated worse than crooked cops, in prison, are people like YOU!
Inmates hate sexual abuse against kids.
“Homosexuality isn’t connected to pedophilia.
This is plainly false. Homosexuals are three times as likely to be pedophiles as heterosexual men. Although exclusive pedophilia (adult attraction to prepubescent children) is an extreme and rare phenomenon, one third of homosexual men are attracted to teenage boys (Jenkins, Priests and Pedophilia). The seduction of teenage boys by homosexual men is a well-documented phenomenon. This form of deviant behavior is the most common type of clerical abuse and is directly connected to homosexual behavior. ”
http://www.catholiceducation.org/articles/facts/fm0011.html
Paul, does it make you FEEL BETTER if the priests are Gay that abuse the under age boys, or what?? Not ONE of the cases I am familiar with was the priest Gay!! These guys are every bit as heterosexual as any other Straight guy… But, they get around these young boys, and for whatever reason, they SNAP… or they get off on a power trip… And they SNAP… And until recent years, they werent around young girls… most all of their victims are Altar Boys…. Altar Girls are fairly NEW in the Church…
Econ — “homosexual behavior.” Thats RIGHT… however… homosexual BEHAVIOR is not the same as homosexual orientation… I know it is a fine line of distinction… And a gay friend of mine pretty near had to knock me up side the head to get it through to me… But, I finally got it!! Hang in there… I think you’re getting there… But, I am not going to make it an issue with you… I Wish Tom was here — He could explain it to you better!!
Chas
Did you read my posts?
I would have no trouble with a homosexual man being alone with my young daughters, unless there was some other problem.
I would have had a problem with a homosexual man spending a large amount of time with my son, when he was underage!
I think that adults should avoid showers and dresssing and body contact with any minor that they might be sexually attracted to.
The Boy Scouts are not being sued for sexual abuse, much. The Boy Scouts only got sued for not allowing openly gay Scout Masters.
I am not condemning gays here.
I think it would be wrong for a man to be a girl scout leader, and sleep in the same tent, out in the woods, with teenage girls.
Except, maybe, if HE was gay! Understand?
Chas,
As to the perverts on this thread —
Do you not agree that civilized people, moral people, understand that the RESTRAINT of desire seperates us from the animals?
Door King and Claud, and that other wacko, seem to think that, if you want it, then it is “natural” and therefore, it is “wrong” to make their desires illegal.
By that logic, since envy and anger are also natural emotions, do these crazy people think that there should be no limits, on those emotions and desires?
“Yah, I killed him, but it was only natural that I should be mad at him, he slept with my daugher 5 years ago, and I just found out about it, so I killed him. My anger was only natural. Therefore, it CANT be a crime, can it?”
“Except, maybe, if HE was gay! Understand?”
I’m not sure I would be comfortaable with that scenario even if HE was Gay!! At least not without Women around… I mean, who used to be the Cub Scout Pack leaders?? MOTHERS of the boys!! Nobody had problems with that, back in the day (the same day when a lot of priests were attacking young boys)
Yea, Paul, pretty much something like that… They are just plain SICKO’s too…
Paul, we arent far apart on the priest thing… I might be a tad bit closer to it, since I am Clergy, and I have been to numerous meetings, and conferences, and read a LOT of actual studies from therapists who worked a number of the cases first-hand… It is a part of what is termed “boundary definition continuing education” — required by MOST denominations…
Agreed.
It is a sad thing.
Priests are no more likely to be child molesters than any other profession.
Clergy in general, likewise.
However, the OPPORTUNITY is there.
Also, the “deep pockets” and the lawsuits.
(Though I am, myself, disgusted at how long it took the bureacracy of the Church to act. — Even if I do fully understand that few “experts” existed, even a decade ago.)
The Church plainly blew it… no pun intended… They knew what was happening… it was easier to move a priest to a new location, than to bring in a new greenhorn fresh out of seminary… especially when seminary grads have been dwindling in recent decades… They also blew it to avoid the apperance of scandal — and ended up with worse than scandal!!
Well, time for me to shut it down… Got a double tomorrow morning… gotta start early… Catch ya again!!
But really, ya cant get married at age 12 in Iowa!! Honest!!
this has reached some strange plateau…
hmmm…umm???
see ya …later.
…wow…
Nite all!!
I get what you’re saying Paul about the sleeping wtih the kids if they’re gay, but I think you’re wrong. I know for a fact that plenty of gay men find underage sex just as appalling as you do. They would NOT do it. It’s each individual person.
I have to watch out for this kind of thing because my son is vunerable for sexual abuse even more than others. I can tell you for certain, I don’t care if the person is hetero or homo, male or female, I worry about it. It depends on the PERSON and you just can’t tell who the abuser is.