The moral and legal morass the Bush administration has created for itself on waterboarding was on full display this week in a tangled web of tortured statements from the administration.
CIA Director Michael Hayden said waterboarding might be illegal under current law — the same week the White House admitted the United States had used the water torture technique on three al-Qaida suspects and left open the possibility that it would use waterboarding in the future.
Vice President Dick Cheney called the president’s authorization of torture “tough and courageous†and asked, “Would I support those same decisions again today? You’re damn right I would.â€
Meanwhile, the nation’s highest defender of the law, Attorney General Michael Mukasey (in photo), said he wouldn’t pursue a criminal investigation of past Justice Department-authorized torture “because that would mean that the same department that authorized the program would now consider prosecuting someone who followed that advice.â€
In other words, any past criminal act by the executive branch is unpunishable as long as the president and Justice Department approved it.
The Bush administration has taken this country down a dark and dangerous path on torture.
183 Comments
How ’bout our next President decides bush is an illegal enemy combatant and then using bush’s rules, our next President makes bush disappear to Gitmo or wherever. No need to charge him with anything specific, no need to allow him to defend himself. bush himself decided to allow this power to the President of the United States.
Not just Bush … I would add Rice, Powell, Cheney, Rumsfield …
Powell was duped. He pulled out when he found the deceit. IMHO, Powell is one hell of a man. Had he had more control, things might not be as bad as they are. Think he would have made a damn fine president.
As to the rest of ‘em? Feed ‘em to the dogs…
“tough and courageous”
If he had volunteered to have it tried out on himself first, he might have been tough and courageous.
It would have been tough and courageous if he had said that he would not have allowed the United States to sink to the level of the enemy.
Ordering torture does not require any amount of courage.
I know that CF2K and I disagree on this, as was evidenced in our respective posts yesterday. To restate a bit, there has been a change in the statutory law subsequent to the DOJ opinion cited, which has led to the current position of the CIA, “under current law”. Parse the words; please.
If water-boarding was torture when we tried Japanese for doing it why isn’t it torture now?
If my lawyer advises me something is OK that doesn’t make it so. I might have a malpractice action against him but I am still culpable for my actions.
“The Bush administration has taken this country down a dark and dangerous path on torture.”
I couldn’t agree more, and the really bad part is how it affects any Americans kidnapped by terrorists. It only serves to justify their use of it in the worlds eye. This stand is a really bad thing, and should be stomped out by the next President. The current one is basically useless, unless he has a signing statement in front of him.
Torture? Or just aggressive interogation techniques?
We’ve used waterboarding very, very sparingly. Then, only on the worst captives. Waterboarding has also yielded some very valuable information. Information that has saved American lives.
All of the democrats on the House Intelligence Committee in 2003 knew about waterboarding and knew that we were authorizing its use.
Waterbording is not a crime. It’s a political football. It only damages our status in the world because the liberals are using it as a political ploy to the detriment of national security.
Ben,
No Japanese have ever been tried for waterboarding the harmless way the CIA does it.
Ben, I understand your point. Concerning the Japanese following WW II, we won, so we got to make the rules. Again, I point out the “current law” or “current statute” caveat. In the absence of controlling judicial precedent or clear statutory language, an administrative agency of the government (federal or state, as the Kansas AG issues opinions, too, on legal questions not yet decided by courts) should be able to rely upon the language of an opinion issued by, at the federal level, the DOJ. It is appropriate to say at this point that such opinions are not controlling upon a court, and also I must freely admit that one relies upon the same at one’s own risk.
Given that the statute has changed, the CIA’s attorneys and attorneys at DOJ have opined that the lawfulness of the use of waterboarding under the provisions thereof not being torture is not certain. An appropriate opinion, BTW.
Using your hypothetical, and contrasting it to the factual situation discussed yesterday, to make it more analogous, your attorney advises you that a certain action is not, in his/her opinion, violative of any criminal statute. The statute is subsequently amended. You take the course of action that the attorney has opined as not being violative under the former statute, you are arrested and convicted under the current statutory language. No malpractice there.
Or, another take; the statute construed and upon which an administrative opinion is issued is subsequently amended, making the former opinion invalid. Then, a person who operated under the former statute and opinion is subjected to prosecution under the new statute. This is a violation of the Constitution (the no “ex post facto law” part).
To me, the second hypothetical I pose is the situation existing now, or close thereto. Thus, to me, myself and I, while I felt the original DOJ opinion was incorrect when it became known, and I felt further that the opinion was based upon a very strained interpretation of the statutory language in question, it was not clearly erroneous as a matter of law. A very bad opinion, to be sure, for a multitude of reasons, but not one that was clearly without the law.
So, as I read your post, and Randy’s header, it should be OK for the DOJ to investigate the admitted waterboarding incidents and then prosecute those involved therein who acted in reliance on the existing Office of Legal Counsel of the DOJ’s opinion thereon, which, at the time, was the sole guidance provided them from a civl law perspective if the DOJ now determines the prior opinion based upon the prior statute was wrong. To me, this is not how things should work.
Any CIA agent who felt the opinion was in error had but one choice if s/he didn’t want to rely upon it, which was to resign. This is unfortunate, but as I see it, true. Courts do not and will not give advisory opinions under our judicial system. There must be a “case or controversy” which exists for a court to take jurisdiction and, after appropriate trial or hearing, render its opinion. Perhaps the way to proceed was for an agent troubled by the opinion to refuse to waterboard, get fired, and raise the same in a wrongful termination suit. In a perfect world, this might work; we all know, however, that the world isn’t perfect.
“Waterboarding has also yielded some very valuable information. Information that has saved American lives.”
I am pretty sure the Bush administration has made this claim, but they offer nothing to back it up. They don’t want our enemies to know about their “successes”. How convenient.
See this book for hundreds of pages of government documents obtained via the FOIA which shows that torture was U.S. policy even before Abu Ghraib. There have been detainees killed while being torturted which would be illegal even under the tortured reasoning (pun intended) offered by Bush and Gonzales as to what constituted torture.
http://www.aclu.org/about/staff/administrationoftorture.html
Sad. It used to be we did not have to debate actions that were violations of international law.
Getting the stench of this administration off of our national identity will be a long process, I fear.
Part of the problem, Steven Davis, is the (perhaps necessary) ambiguity of certain portions of the Geneva Conventions that deal with torture. While I don’t like it, there are provisions therein contained that are open to interpretation by any of the parties to the treaties. This, of course, is what gave the current administration the opportunity to shade its opinion the way it was. The absence of a clearly worded U.S. statute also contributed thereto.
The statute in question, the name and citation to which escape me, has been amended and has eliminated at least some of the ambiguity formerly found therein. Thus, the “current statute” language from Mr. Hayden.
“waterboarding the harmless way the CIA does it.”
Harmless? Simulating drowning is harmless? If it is harmless, why do it in the first place?
And what happened to the Americans being the “good guys?”
Remember, those that are tortured will tell the torturer what ever they want to hear to get them to stop. Reality is not an episode of “24.”
If we lower ourselves to the level of the enemy, we are no better than them.
And Randy, as futile as this is, the way to correct the problem you perceive is to impeach.
Ever see “waterboarding” demonstrated?
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,227357,00.html
John McCain has said he does not want to write a torture exception into the law, but would pardon someone who used torture to save lives in a WMD situation.
Hillary Clinton goes further, she would write a “ticking bomb” exception into the law.
However, where illegal enemy combatants are concerned, it is rather twisted logic to say that those criminals are covered by the Constitution or by the Geneva Conventions.
If CIA (not military) waterboarding of an “illegal enemy combatant” is illegal, under what law and what jurisdiction?
There is a disturbing presumption within Randy’s header that a crime was committed regardless. Sorry, Randy, I can’t quite get there from what I know.
“If CIA (not military) waterboarding of an “illegal enemy combatant” is illegal, under what law and what jurisdiction?”
Ah, the moral code of the United States that says we are BETTER than terrorists and criminal elements.
Econ, how’s the granddaughter?
To answer your question from my perspective, it (waterboarding) becomes unlawful under the circumstances you describe if the same is either: a) specifically made unlawful by statute adopted within the United States; b) classified as torture under a United States statute making torture unlawful; c) classified as torture under an international treaty ratified by the Congress of the United States, which, under the provisions of the Constitution, becomes a part of the law of the United States. Those are three ways I can come up with which would make the actions you describe illegal under U.S. law, and in item c) illegal under international law.
Yes Econ101, how’s that grand baby doing?
Clark,
Your post is little more than mindless liberal political talking points.
“Harmless?”
Well yes Clark, harmless. It does no harm. It merely scares the crap out of them. Literally!
“Simulating drowning is harmless?”
The key to your question here is “Simulating”. The answer to your question is, yes.
“If it is harmless, why do it in the first place?”
It scares them into talking. It has proven to work. It saves lives.
“Remember, those that are tortured will tell the torturer what ever they want to hear to get them to stop.”
Yes dear, that is the whole point of aggresive interrogation! To be effective you must convince them that what you want to hear is the truth. The whole truth and nothing but the truth. Then you convince them that you will verify everything they tell you. You do this by asking several questions, many of which you already know the answers. When the lie they immediately face the consequences.
No need to thank me for the clarification, glad to help.
“There is a disturbing presumption within Randy’s header that a crime was committed regardless. Sorry, Randy, I can’t quite get there from what I know.”
I aggree VT. There is also the accepted premise that ‘waterboarding’ is torture.
The way the CIA does it with no physical injury and carefully monitored does not rise to the level of torture.
For it to be classified as torture, we’d have to define torture as scaring the prisoner.
“where illegal enemy combatants are concerned”
They have not been convicted in any kind of court of law. So, if someone is kidnapped and the kidnappers declare him to be an illegal combatant then it is OK for them to torture him? I think that was the logic of “alQuada in Iraq”.
If it so legal why not let the Police use it for common criminals.
Paul - veering off-topic as well - how is she doing?
“No need to thank me for the clarification, glad to help.”
So much for Americans being the “good guys.”
Given your scenario, Mr. Price, why don’t we just torture ANYONE suspected of a crime?
Eh?
Why stop with suspected terrorists? Damn, let’s just torture common criminals, traffic violators, truants, cheating spouses, etc.
If torture is such a wonderful thing, why did the United States sign the Geneva Conventions?
Eh?
“It scares them into talking. It has proven to work. It saves lives.”
Proven to work when? There is no documented or verifiable evidence that it has ever worked.
McCain was tortured. He’s against torture. Why wouldn’t someone that was tortured be FOR the practice?
For that matter, why does Bush keep saying that we DON’T torture?
Lay back Clarkie, I have a towel I want to lay over your face and this jug of water…
See Clark,
You continue with the false premise! Waterboarding isn’t torture!
And, there is a lot of evidence that it works!
I personally don’t think we should torture people, ever. Why should we when aggressive interogation procedures like waterboarding have proved to b effective!
“Waterboarding isn’t torture!”
Who said? You? If it is not torture, then what is your definition of torture?
The Rack?
Thumbscrews?
The Iron Maiden?
“aggressive interogation procedures”
So why not just use aggressive interogation (sic)procedures for every suspected criminal - domestic or foreign?
Damn, why not just use it on everybody - they may be a terrorist in hiding?
Hey, it “works” right?
Attack dogs in a prisoner’s face, is just scaring them. Defecating on their Koran, is just humiliating them. A woman expoxing herself to the prisoner is what? Just titilating them. Under con. reasoning there is very little that would be considered torture.
BTW, I believe I’ve read that some CIA agents did refuse to torture/waterboard, and it was outsourced. Bet there were under orders with threat of prosecution or gitmo, not to leak it too.
Khalid Sheikh Mohammed
tor·ture /?t?rt??r/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[tawr-cher] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation noun, verb, -tured, -tur·ing.
–noun
1. the act of inflicting excruciating pain, as punishment or revenge, as a means of getting a confession or information, or for sheer cruelty.
2. a method of inflicting such pain.
3. Often, tortures. the pain or suffering caused or undergone.
4. extreme anguish of body or mind; agony.
5. a cause of severe pain or anguish.
“Khalid Sheikh Mohammed”
Not proven. No evidence. Just Bush Administration claims.
Like Saddam was in cahoots with bin Laden.
But consider this scenario, Mr. Price…………..
You claim that waterboarding is not torture.
Let’s for instance that Nathan, God forbid, were to be captured by the Iranian military and they wanted to know prospective American troop movements.
Would you be okay if they waterboarded him?
I think not.
That is why we should not waterboard or torture.
We are supposed to be better than that.
Jeez, Mr. Price, waterboarding qualifies as torture under all FIVE of your definitions.
Hank, definition number 4) given above in your post of 4:22 p.m., is where many base their opinion that waterboarding is torture, “extreme anguish of body or mind, agony”, in particular the extreme anguish of mind. Seeing that the word “or” is used therein, there does not have to be bodily anguish if there is mental anguish. The thought that one is drowning would, in the opinion of many, be such anguish. I happen to agree that waterboarding is torture under such definition, whether so defined by statute or otherwise. However, just because I think it is torture is of little moment in this discussion concerning whether the DOJ should investigate and potentially prosecute.
Given that, I hold to my view previously stated that the DOJ opinion, relied upon (apparently) by employees of the CIA, no matter how much I disagree therewith, should protect those who placed their reliance upon it, from a DOJ investigation of something that may now be a crime under the current law.
I guess I have been under the mistaken belief we are a civilized nation. In my humble opinion, a civilized nation would find it criminal to torture anyone, enemy combatant or not. But then again, a civilized nation wouldn’t find it necessary to abort its children, or kill its citizens via capital punishment.
My guess is we still have a long way to go. We can start by outlawing waterboarding.
Well Clark,
If the Iranian military ever did anything as benign as waterboarding, and if I had the choice of allowing him to be waterboarded instead of the crap they do, ie., beatings dismemberment, beheadings, etc., . . . .
If the US has such a bad name around the world for torture and the way we treat our prisoners why did 250,000 Iraqis surrender tho anything that moved? US troops, newsmen, tourists on their way to Mecca. . .?
Hey VT,
I’m not sure it does. There doesn’t seem to be any lasting mental effects.
Clark I guess you have this torture thing all figured out. Why don’t we ask Daniel Pearl’s wife if she would rather have her husband waterboarded or what really happened to him.
When the left says we should set the example they do so with their head in the sand. Look at what has happened to even reporters in the region. Not only beheadings but publisized beheadings. After waterboarding they will live to fight another day - not so with a beheading.
When will the left realized what we are dealing with here?
Hank, I don’t think any mental effects need to be long lasting to meet the dictionary definition. Just my opinion.
If it were up to me or any other rational person, bush and his entire administration would be tried for the same crimes as those at Nuremberg. They would also suffer similar punishment.
“I guess I have been under the mistaken belief we are a civilized nation. ”
SOME of us are J M. SOME of us wish America to be better than the current crop of thugs running it.
JM I couldn’t agree with you more on both of these.
“But then again, a civilized nation wouldn’t find it necessary to abort its children, or kill its citizens via capital punishment.”
It’s funny JR can’t see the forest for the tree in front of him.
Ksgrm, and your point is What? That we should be happy as the proverbial pig in s**t? That we are somehow better by using waterboarding then beheading them? And you think WE have our heads in the sand? Obviously, there is no middle ground here: You either act as a civilized nation, or you don’t.
No JM I just thought it was ironic that you condemed torture, abortion and capital punishment and JR, one of the biggest pro-aborts on the blog agreed with you.
And JM yes we are better for tortureig them and not beheading them. One of those you live to breath another day - one you don’t. The real barbarianism is that Daniel Pearl was beheaded for no other reason that ‘because they wanted to give the world a message’.
People such as these are our enemies. We didn’t declare war on them. They came after us. Peace is a great thing when both sides want it.
Thanks for asking folks, this is was posted on another thread:
—–
Econ101
Posted February 8, 2008 at 3:17 pm | Permalink
And
Thanks for your thoughts and prayers for my little Kaitlyn.
It was on again off again on again.
Surgery didnt start until 11:00 this morning. She came out around 2:00 PM.
Enpyema cyst, outside of lung, was drained, one lung was completely collapsed, they tried to drain it, as well. She is full of tubes, to drain the chest cavity and the right lung. Also, they left a shunt or catheter in, to administer meds directly.
She is a fighter.
She didnt even need O-2 untill this morning, and then only when she was trying to sleep, just prior to surgery.
We put a sock on her hand to keep her from pulling Oxygen canula out of her nose. Kaitlyn bit the sock off. I scolded her, so she left the tube alone. Then when the nurse came in and asked where the sock went, Kaitlyn threw the sock at me!
Anyway, thanks folks.
I know it might seem odd, mixing family and politics, but guess what we all talked about, while waiting on our little miracle baby?
Besides, this kid was released to “Hospice Care” 5 years ago, and has been proving doctors wrong all her life!
Again, thanks for your thoughts and prayers.
I need a nap!
Great Econ - you and your miracle will be in our prayers.
“Then when the nurse came in and asked where the sock went, Kaitlyn threw the sock at me!”
Fiesty! That is probably a good sign!
Yes an Al-Qaeda plot was uncovered by the use of water boarding, it seems they were plotting to come up the Hudson river, take over Madison square garden, using the subway system to get around without being seen. And destroy the Brooklyn bridge by destroying the suspension cables so they fall.
So, the best we can come up with here is:
“at least we don’t behead captive like they do”
“it’s not really torture - it works”
“We do waterboarding under carefully monitored conditions”
It is a sad day in America when presumedly non-deranged citizens can offer these excuses for the U.S. using torture.
“Yes an Al-Qaeda plot was uncovered by the use of water boarding…”
Please provide a source for this.
I’m guessing it would be extremely difficult to prove it as torture in the court system. The reason being is one has to prove “harm” and not simply the appearance of “harm.”
“It is a sad day in America when presumedly non-deranged citizens can offer these excuses for the U.S. using torture.”
So Steven I can take from this that if you don’t agree with Steven Davis you are deranged. Must be great to be you.
How did you get all of this power?
Paul I can find no words to express how the news is a relief and I hope it continues to be good. And remain strong, there is not more hurtful sight in the world then seeing a loved one with all the tubes. And the little one can cause the tears to flow even harder. Be well the all of you.
OK Steven I will I have to look it up,
I’d hate to say it with all the negative views I have sometimes, but we’re probably better off now than 20 years ago, things always continue to improve even though there are road bumps, but the bad news is all people can focus on, I guess if we didn’t focus on the bad news, we would stop improving. Bush would probably look better in the eyes of most of us, if he and his administration didn’t act like we we’re fools, and was honest and open about things, instead of using a “stay the course” slogan, and constant fear of terrorism that he subjected us to.
I think the idea of freedom rarely materialized in societies but for brief instances, because to be truly free is to be free of society, and well we people are social beings and I don’t think we do to well as individuals running amok in nature like wild animals. Even small villages in third world countries are a society them self, bound to the social constraints they are born into. A person who is truly free is like the kid in the movie “into the wild”, and if you’ve seen that movie you know that the idealism of freedom is for non-social animals. We’re actually as free as we’ll ever be, unless you believe in being reincarnated as a bird or a tiger which sounds kind of lonely.
As for the waterboarding, I’m sure its torture, but its non-lethal, and any torture that works by making the person uncomfortable without doing permanent damage or scarring physical or mental is probably reasonable.
Lets not make the mistake of wallowing in denial by calling torture, interrogation techniques. They are one in the same, but there is a line that needs to be drawn of what is acceptable, and we can’t tickle terrorists with feathers and expect them to talk.
WHiteElephant, not even if they are extremely ticklish?
More seriously, the language Hank used comes, at least in part, from the DOJ opinion in question, IIRC, the viability of such opinion now called into question due to the change in the law.
Sorry Steven, I have red so much that I do not recall just where I read it. It was also an attempt at some humor. It seems that at one time the authorites got a confess of a terrorist plot. Only to later notice that it was the plot from the movie “Godilla”. The terrorist later confirmed that he had watch the movie a month before being capture.
This took them back to square one.
I have “read” not “red” I just imagined looking over to my book shelf and seeing a bunch of books painted red! LOL
Hank Price
Posted February 8, 2008 at 4:22 pm | Permalink
tor·ture /?t?rt??r/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[tawr-cher] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation noun, verb, -tured, -tur·ing.
–noun
1. the act of inflicting excruciating pain, as punishment or revenge, as a means of getting a confession or information, or for sheer cruelty.
2. a method of inflicting such pain.
3. Often, tortures. the pain or suffering caused or undergone.
4. extreme anguish of body or mind; agony.
5. a cause of severe pain or anguish.”
========================================
Hank, how can you read this definition, and NOT see how waterboarding fits this definition to a “T” —-
Please note — These alleged criminals that our people have waterboarded, are primarily Desert people…
ANYthing involving WATER could be a form of torture to such people…
But, leaving demographics aside, how can you even THINK for even ONE MINUTE that pouring water over someone’s face, so that they cannot move or get away from it, is NOT torture, then, Hank, I dont know how to say this, YOU ARE EITHER NUTS, OR YOU ARE JUST TOTALLY INHUMANE IN YOUR WHOLE THOUGHT PROCESSES!!
Dont even THINK about throwing in beheadings in the conversation… C’mon, Beheading is NOT torture… Beheading is one of many different forms of EXECUTION… It is just plain bogus to include methods of execution, which are PLANNED to end in Death, not to get information… with a conversation about torture….
Torture is designed, by its very nature, to elicit a “response” from its victim…
EXECUTION — once complete, implies NO response from the victim — The Victim is DEAD!!
So, forget about throwing in beheadings… It’s just a diversionary tactic, Hank…
And YOU KNOW thats all it is…
Waterboarding — by EACH of the 5 points in the definition that YOU posted, Hank, is absolutely, without question, TORTURE!!
I disagree Chas. Beheading is hideous torture. It just ends in death. Sort of like the motor drills, lacerations and burning that the terrorists in Iraq use before they kill their victims.
Waterboarding is sissy stuff compared to that.
Outlander, THAT is just plain STUPID
You dont cut off somebody’s head with the expectation of gaining any information…
The middle eastern method of beheading is not done the same as in other places… it is slower… but once that main artery is severed… there is no expectation of gaining any kind of information…
Which, BTW, is supposed to be the REASON for using torture… Geez!!
Nice comeback there Eistein.
And you think that torture is just for obtaining information? Chas, you are just demonstrating your ignorance.
Outlander, READ THE FRIGGIN DEFINITION!!!
I realize reading is somewhat difficult, but, please — give it a try!!
This is one I WILL NOT back off of… ANYbody who condones Torture, IMHO is barely worthy of being called an American!!
1. the act of inflicting excruciating pain, as punishment or revenge, as a means of getting a confession or information, or for sheer cruelty.
————
You mean that one?
BTW, how nice of you to answer on behalf of Hank… LOL
yea, that one dumbkopf
This is one I WILL NOT back off of… ANYbody who condones Torture, IMHO is barely worthy of being called an American!!
————
Chuckle…I don’t blame you for changing the subject!
From Britannica:
“the infliction of severe physical or mental pain or suffering for a purpose, such as extracting information, coercing a confession, or inflicting punishment. It is normally committed by a public official or other person exercising comparable power and authority.”
HOW… no… WHY would you want to defend the use of torture?? What kind of human being ARE you that you can condone such treatment of one human being by another??
And you want to be taken seriously?? As an American?? As a human being??
And you DARE to find it humorous???
Actually, it is you I find humorous, Chas!
You never admitted to being wrong or mistaken. It is humorous to see you go through strained contortions to avoid it.
It’s OK bro, I’m letting it drop here.
Why would I even consider admitting to being wrong on Torture??? NO WAY!! It isnt a humorous subject… And it is probably best you do let it drop… You will only look more barbaric if you pursue it!!
Oh and Chas, please point out for the class where I have defended torture.
I won’t wait because you can’t.
Outlander would rather defend Barbaric practices, than admit to being wrong.
Outlander wrote:
“Waterboarding is sissy stuff compared to that.”
I posted:
“Waterboarding — by EACH of the 5 points in the definition that YOU posted, Hank, is absolutely, without question, TORTURE!!”
Outlander answered:
“I disagree Chas.”
Come on guys,
I’ll tell you what torture is, it’s trying to have a discussion with a bunch of nitwits that think that calling aggressive interrogation techniques is torture. Then they use their twisted confused understanding to escape any intelligent and meaningful discussion.
Water boarding isn’t torture! I was a Navy diver going through Navy dive school in New London, CT in January and February was torture! Hell, I went through worse at my chief’s initiation. Even worse than that was when I went through my initiation as a Golden Shell Back!
I don’t think water boarding can be defined as torture. Scary, temporary discomfort, but not torture. Until you’ve sat in the electric polar bear hole don’t talk to me about torture!
Poossy nitwits. Sheesh.
Chas, how do feel about enhanced interrogation techniques? Is that acceptable?
I answered:
“BTW, how nice of you to answer on behalf of Hank… LOL”
You are a crack up Chas! A guy who pretends to be a minister who will lie his a$$ off to and falsely disparage another poster to avoid saying those three little words, “I was wrong”. Try it Chas. You can do it.
Even Fonzie did it. Well he sort of choked on wrong, but he wasn’t pretending to be a minister.
Hank, I’m sorry, you are just terribly warped! I dont know what to say… Terrible!!
W.E. — That would depend on the techniques…
Chas you are indeed pathetic. Do you wake up each morning in a different world? Do you actually have opinions or is there a panel at your home that gives you answers daily. As in ” OK today these are the answers you will give - no matter what the question is” There is a definite disconnect between your brain and your fingers.
You should read the stories of the witnesses of public beheadings. The victim screams for mercy as the sword is coming down. There is that moment when they know they will die a horrible death. The difference is they don’t live to tell of the agony they went thru.
You really need to get a brain.
Enhanced Interrogation techniqes is what do you call, double talk? A nice way of saying, Torture. I’m sure its necessary in certain situations, and they have kind ways of torturing that they do first before they start doing waterboarding. Like keeping you up 24 hours without sleep with your eyelids taped open with bright lights shining in your eyes. I’m sure a terrorist will survive those kinds of interrogations.
White Eleph you didn’t mention playing rock music so loud the walls vibrate for 12 hours without ceasing. No wait, that was my grandsons bedroom. Well that might work. I was ready to cry uncle.
Ah Chas,
I’m a retired born again submarine sailor! I had to work very, very hard to get up to “terribly warped”.
Don’t give up on me, I’m still a work in progress!
Well, at least it sounds like you might still have hope, Hank…
KsGrm… I have seen videos of some of those middle eastern beheadings… When they actually use a sword, thats merciful, compared to what some, like Daniel Pearl went through… However, it is NOT torture, KsGrm… it is Execution… you know, like we do here… only we do it with Needles… and poison in the veins… we call it humane…
Why would you bring up the issue of beheading?? We are talking about Torture, Granny… NOT executions… THAT is a different subject… We try to justify torture, by claiming that we want information, or a confession…
When you Behead somebody, or hang somebody, or electrocute somebody, or lethally inject somebody, you have NO expectation of information!! of any kind… all you have is expectation of DEATH!!
So, dont try to flame this discussion with your screams and cries of fear for the swift, or not swift blade of the swordsman!!
Oh, and by the way… I think, Granny, that your world is the world of fantasy and make believe…
W. Eleph. says correctly:
“Enhanced Interrogation techniqes is what do you call, double talk? A nice way of saying, Torture.”
There are forms of interrogation that are useful and effective… that are NOT torture… Torture has yet to be proven to be effective in getting information, OR in preventing any terrorist acts from taking place. Anybody who says otherwise, is just plain WRONG!
Amazing how many of the “Christian” bloggers are in favor of torture…and water boarding IS torture, any reasonable person knows that.
Let me ask you good, God fearing, church going, bible thumping people: What Would Jesus Do?
Amen, Chas!
Ah Mary,
Question doesn’t apply. Jesus knows what is in your heart. Doesn’t have to interrogate you to find out what you know!
If John McCain is against waterboarding, that’s good enough for me. I would trust someone’s judgement who actually has experienced what it’s like to be tortured.
If Jesus was standing in a room with someone being waterboarded, what do you think His reaction would be to those who were perpetrating the torture?
Go out on a limb and give it your best shot, Hank. Don’t change the subject in order to avoid the question.
Mary writes:
“Amazing how many of the “Christian” bloggers are in favor of torture…”
You know, Mary, that really baffles the heck out of me… You hit that nail right on the head… Of course, many of them also are in favor of the Death Penalty too! I have no clue… Like you say, WWJD???
Good show on History Channel — Caligula
Mary I am not in favor of torture but I do realize that we live in a world where it is sometimes necessary. War isn’t a game as some would think. It is a battle played with real weapons even if those weapons are jets flown into towers full of people.
If I have a choice of waterboarding a terrorist to get information to save lives - then I come down on the side of ‘torture’ everytime.
Chas I have seen portions of the films of the men who were beheaded in the name of Alah. It wasn’t quick, they were tortured before the beheading, it was a slow tedious process and the victim knew their future was to lose their head.
How you can define waterboarding as torture and give a pass to terrorists beheading someone is ludicris. Don’t pretend that the big bad Americans are the ones who torture. You are in the blame America first crowd.
KsGrm, you are indeed overwhelming in your constant state of stupid ignorant comments… I NEVER stated I give a pass to terrorists beheading someone!! Honestly, woman, WHERE do you come up with your visions of fantasy???
And I AM being nice!! LOL
I define waterboarding as torture, and DENOUNCE IT… YOU on the other hand, embrace it as somehow necessary!! THAT is ludicrous!!
We Americans torture… WE as Americans are supposed to be BETTER than that!! WE are supposed to be ABOVE such barbaric acts!!
And look all you want… I give NO PASS to terrorists beheading anybody!!
I simply categorize it as it is… EXECUTION
“Like you say, WWJD???”
I’ve always thought the WWJD was bogus. Jesus said not one word against the slavery going on in His time.
What Would Jesus Do?
Answer: All the Jews, Muslims, Buddists, etc, will be separated from His Father. Jesus was very clear on this. No equivacation.
Make up you mind. If you want to throw out the WWJD as a way to make your point, go ahead, that is what He would do.
There is one way to the Father.. (He didn’t say a couple of ways). And I’m not even a believer.
“ANYbody who condones Torture, IMHO is barely worthy of being called an American!!”
Second that Chas.
Looks like chas is talking to himself (again).
Fleetwood… If you arent a believer, then your opinion is hardly worth noting… since you arent a part of it, what difference does it make to you??
The question WWJD naturally is directed not to NON Believers… but to Believers!!
Since you are a non believer, I would not expect you to understand the meaning…
How about trying to get terrorists to talk by forcing them to listen to a looping tape of Hillary raising her voice or yelling?
Nah, that surely would cross that “enhanced interrogation-torture” line.
And, again, the difference is? Torture is torture, be it waterboarding
or beheading. Your red herring has no teeth. Your ridiculous attempt
at categorizing torture, and somehow giving credence to one over the
other, is rather lame.
It seems to me that people, who try to justify torture, had little
problem pulling wings off flies as a kid. Too close to home?
Dick Caveat, when asked if he would interview O. J. Simpson, replied,
“No, I prefer not to communicate with someone who has killed his
wife.” I would say the same thing about someone who approves of, or
justifies, torture. Am I making myself clear, or do you want flip up
cards.
Let me give you an example: There is a major undercurrent of racism in
this country that has been passed down from generation to generation.
It is a sad fact that I have witnessed time and time again. The only
way for racism to disappear from life is to institute a radical change
in culture itself, and that includes all races.
By a change of culture, I don’t mean bling, rap, punk, or whatever
clings to or defines physical culture. I mean the inner culture that
nurtures racism. That same change of inner culture is what I’m talking
about when I condemn torture. I have my doubts you can understand
that. I know you could never agree with it. And that is why you think
waterboarding is okay. Understand?
Hillary yelling… Huckabee preaching… yea, either one might be productive… LOL
Ya know Chas?
It’s kinda scary just what lies beneath the veneer of some Christians.
It’s not hard to imagine them using torture or other coercive means to “enlighten” the non faithful.
Walker, I agree…
However, I am not sure I would agree with what Dick Cavitt said about O. J.
If you remember, there was a huge amount of this cultural racism involved in that murder trial…
Hank, you went through what you went through by choice. It was and is part of the military culture. I don’t think that comes close to torture, unless you were forced to go through it. You weren’t. Like your response to to Mary, your training doesn’t apply.
Uh, Chas, isn’t that the same culture I suggest needs to be changed? Caveat never mentioned race at all. I think you would find, if you read him, that he was quite above that. A very interesting man.
“And, again, the difference is? Torture is torture, be it waterboarding
or beheading. Your red herring has no teeth. Your ridiculous attempt
at categorizing torture, and somehow giving credence to one over the
other, is rather lame.”
—————
One is borderline enhanced interrogation/torture that takes a few seconds and leaves the person uninjured. It is what it is.
The other is undeniable torture with clear malicious infliction of horrible pain and death.
They aren’t close to the same thing JM.
Notice how Hank won’t answer my question directly…he’s probably already left the building.
Kansgrm…in case no one has told you..the Iraqis never attacked us by flying airplanes into our buildings.
They didn’t start attacking us until we attacked them.
If someone invaded our country, overthrew our government, and told us that the way we live was going to drastically change…never mind what Jesus would do, what would you do?
I don’t know Mary. I’m a Christian. One of the Ten Commandments is:
You shall not make wrongful use of the name of the Lord your God, for the Lord will not acquit anyone who misuses his name.
Or, simply put,
Thou shall not take the Lord’s name in vain.
WWJD? is a very fair question! In fact, to live a Christian life it’s a question that you should (and I do) ask yourself throughout the day.
However, the answer is tricky. Tricky in that you should not presume to know what Jesus would do and them try and make some political point with your presumption.
When I see someone make a statement on the BLOG and end it with “Jesus wept” it bothers me. I feel that it is violating a Commandment.
I think it is fair to ask what Jesus would do about water boarding. I would hope that if I were in a position that I could save the lives of many women and children by aggressive interrogation techniques that I could be successful and not violate any of my Christian beliefs.
I won’t presume to speculate on what Jesus would do. I’ll merely continue to study his teachings and try not to screw up to bad in my short remaining time left on earth.
Yea, I find Cavitt a very interesting figure… I wasnt ever totally clear what his feelings were about O. J… Couldnt tell for sure if there was some underlying racial tension, or not…
Have you been waterboarded Outlander? Maybe if you were subjected to such “borderline enhanced interrogation/torture” you might change your mind about how harmless it is.
Didn’t Jesus say “As you do unto the least of your brethren, so you do unto me”
So are all you “good” Christians in favor of waterboarding Jesus?
outlander you are not usually so obtuse.
Beheading is execution. Torture is not necessarily execution.
And it lowers the practicers of it.
If you make it ok for one of ours to do to another human being, you make it easier for the torturer to see all human beings as worth less.
More to the point. Would you want your daughter to marry someone who had inflicted water boarding or other tortures? Would you be comfortable if your son chose a field that required water boarding or other tortures as part of the job?
It’s easy to condone torture if you yourself are not the one or do not know the one inflicting it. That above all, the ability to distance yourself from it by having it inflicted on others BY others, makes it wrong.
Now, my dear, I will “leave the building”! I’ve got key lime pie and a cup of coffee to take care of before nighty bye.
I’m getting up early to caucus!
Would I approve waterboarding in the case of the “ticking time bomb” scenario? Of course! And probably more. Would I actually do it? That’s tougher, but if lives were at stake, you would have to suck it up.
How could you live with yourself if you were more concerned about making someone very uncomfortable for a few seconds when lives are at stake?
Is there anyone here who would not approve waterboarding in the ‘ticking time bomb scenario?
Oh, and if you haven’t seen waterboarding demonstrated, I posted a link earlier in the thread.
I think Jesus was very clear in His instruction of how we were to treat each other, Hank.
You can spin it anyway you want, but Jesus preached that we should love our neighbor..and I think you’ll find many examples of how He meant for us to live our lives in the Gospels.
BTW, there is no evidence that torture is an effective means of interrogating people. You’d have to come up with some pretty reliable proof for me to change my mind on that, not just the opinion of some right wing pundit you heard on talk radio.
You’ve been watching too much “24″ outlander.
The “ticking bomb” scenario is not realistic.
The USA is supposed to stand for all that is good and decent…when we condone torture as a way to deal with our enemies, then we become the same as them.
So who are you voting for, Hank? There’s hardly anyone left on your side!
McCain is going to be your man. And I’m OK with that, I can honestly say I respect him.
Mary I think many people are conflicted on this. What would you think was acceptable if you knew a person had information that could save many lives and he refused to tell you. What would you think was acceptable to get this info?
I accept that torture is now and has always been part of the ugliness of war. It didn’t start with Bush and won’t end with him. We as a country have chosen to air our dirty laundry in the senate and tell the world that our prez is a war criminal.
I just cant form an opinion that says this is ok. I realize Iraq wasn’t behind 911 but I do know that they committed many atrocieties that killed hundreds of thousands. We as a country knew this. The same people that would have us go into other countries practicing genocide want us to turn our back on the Iraqi people.
No I don’t have all of the answers but I know there is no simple answer and the answer won’t come out of a senate hearing.
I’m a student of history.
How about an instance of where torture resulted in false information and a needless death?
Though he disagreed with Hitler, Field Marshall Erwin Rommel was NOT complicit in the plot to assassinate him in July of 1944. His adjutant Speidel was. It can be argued as to whether Rommel was correct on incorrect in his loyalty. That is the perogative of history. But Rommel was not one for disloyalty. Disagreement vocal and loud yes. Treason, no.
During lengthy and awful tortures, one of the real conspirators cried out Rommel’s name.
Rommel was thus implicated in a plot he had no part in. To protect his family, his legacy, AND his guilty adjutant, Rommel, on orders, committed suicide.
Information garnered through torture is not reliable. As the above shows.
No Granny You cant spin on this one… you are already dizzy enough… Torture is Wrong… ALL the time WRONG… Not just when its convenient… That is called ETHICS…
I’m a student of history too.
Name one instance where a father blogged all day long and let his son grow up without healthcare?
And pooof out come the idiot sock puppets!!
You know, I dont know about some of the rest of you, but I dont think that JR’s relationship with his son, is a suitable topic for the Blog… And I think we ought to tell some of these bobble headed bozos that too!!
Chas why does anyone this board talk with you? You make absolutely so sense. Spend all your time telling others how wrong they are. Never admit it when you are wrong 90% of the time and then expect a civilized conversation with others. You are a man of no principles, no core beliefs and very little common sense. Now that I have really told you how I feel please don’t respond to anymore of my post when I address them to someone else and I will do you the same courtesy. Thanks
CHAS CAN YOU TYPE BIGGER? I CAN’T SEE WHAT YOU ARE WRITING.
Tap “James McCluer”?
I have less than a dozen posts today.
And how many nics have you worn through the day as you sit in your sisters basement collecting welfare?
And that little bit of notice is all you get from me James McCluer.
Tap that is Chas was of yelling at us ignorant people on the board that can’t read and comprehend his deep and profound oratories.
JR, you brought up your son’s situation.
You complain about not having free health care for him.
You blog all day and complain that the rich don’t give you enough money.
You sit on your tail and blog, yet it isn’t a priority for you to go get one, two, or three jobs if that’s what it takes to take care of you and your own.
I have never complained about not getting enough free handouts from government.
You have, constantly. Because you are too busy blogging to work!
Granny, I really dont ccare what you think of me, TORTURE is wrong… At least I have the principles to STAND on that…. Obviously, YOU DONT!
And I am NOT wrong 90% of the time… Thats how much of the time you cant seem to read with proper comprehension!!
This has been an open blog topic on torture before YOU GOT HERE.. so maybe You re the one who butted in??? Eh???
Just stop telling me what I can and ccant believe, or say or think!! BETTER YET, JUST STAY OUT OF MY LIFE!!
OLD WORN OUT WENCH!!@
Thanks ksgrm.
I never saw Chas type in small letters before. I wasn’t used to squinting to see his posts.
And so Tap continues to LIE — You and James keep lying about JR’s employment, and neither one of you KNOW anything!! You just keep on lying!! You keep oh demeaning JR… Why cant you just keep out of his life??? It isnt any of your business… LOTS of people cant afford insurance for their kids!!
DumbA$$
ksgrm,
Does Chas’ typing get really bad when he is mad, or does he always type so poorly?
JUST SHOVE IT PAT HERRON!! YOU IMBICILE!!
Chas sounds like JR, or Jr’s boyfriend.
Or is Chas JR? Same person using two names on this blog?
This thread was doing just fine, till Granny and Pat have to come along, and fill us with their deep rooted levels of ignornance and lunacy, and self-righteous blunder!!
NOW, it turns into the usual CRAP!!
Chas, you really seem like you get excited on this blog.
I like the capital letters, it’s easier for me to read.
Now back to the torture discussion….
Chas let it go.
You are better than that and you are better than him. I don’t care what James McCluer says about me.
He can rant all night for all I care. Don’t you feed him.
Torture Chas!
Get back to torture! Very interesting discussion. You do seem like the type that would be into it. Please do go on.
OK PAT, thats about enough of your sexual fantasy Bull Shit Crap… You know, some times, children read this thing… I hope one of them complains about YOUR FILTH, and your RANCOR…. All you are is a Cheap, Good for nothing, Blogladyte!!! SHOVE IT PAT!!
Its OK JR… Pat is going to get his soon enough… I had a nice chat with the interactive editor yesterday afternoon… This kind of personal sexual attack CRAP will be soon coming to an end!!
Who is Pat, Chas?
And if any children complain, it would likely be about your posts Chas.
You really are an excitable one, aren’t you! Cute too I bet.
Sexual?
Who said anything sexual?
Maybe we should ask James why his wife took his child and abandoned him.
Chas, I’m not into that, if THAT is what you are thinking.
I thought this was a clean blog.
Good night all!
See JR, I’m not in a position of being able to sit idly by, while the likes of Pat Herron, and some others, continually keep up with the Defamation of Character that happens on this Blog… Unlike some, I am a known public figure… AND I HAVE COME TO THE END OF MY ROPE, AS FAR AS THE VITRIOLIC PERSONAL ATTACKS THAT HAPPEN HERE…
And you know what?? The Editors agree with me!!
YOU DID PAT!!! A$$HOLE!!!
But, thats OK, it is already sent in…
Good riddance Pat!! Bye now!!
Chas don’t cry, just send in the report to the editor.
And read the above posts and see who brought sex into this.
See who started such filthy language and got such filthy things in their mind.
I’m not into porn* web sites like this.
Goodnight!
YOU DID PAT!! I guess I will go get the post, and put it out for ALL to see your LIES!!
OK FOLKS — Pat’s Sexual Inuendo >>>>
===============================================
Tap Herroni
Posted February 8, 2008 at 10:19 pm | Permalink
Chas sounds like JR, or Jr’s boyfriend.
Or is Chas JR? Same person using two names on this blog?
===========================================
Hillary wants to take my guns away so I will be defenseless against Chas.
More LIES about JR’s employment… >>>