WE Blog

Perhaps we should discuss the healthcare issue.
Here’s the Republic Party’s argument:

SOCIALISM!!! SOCIALISM!!!!! SOCIALISM!!!!

Here’s the rational approach:

Illness is not market-driven. You get sick or you don’t. Luck of the draw.

If healthcare is free, nobody’s gonna run out and have a heart attack just to take advantage of a new governmental benefit. “Hey, there won’t be any hospital bills, so let’s go get cancer!!”

The Republic Party’s response: Socialism!!! Socialism!!!! Socialism!!!

Yeah, well, okay.

Universal healthcare coverage isn’t going to cost a penny more than we’re all spending for healthcare today. Thanks to the Hippocratic Oath, no doctor can refuse to treat any ailing patient. (Okay, yeah, outfits such as Bill Frist’s Hospital Corporation of America have shuffled off non-insured patients to public non-profit hospitals, just to boost the bottom line. But wherever a sick person winds up, somebody’s paying for their treatment. )

Granted, there are huge corporate entities ready willing and able to spend billions of dollars paying for actuaries to refuse health insurance, and there are Learjets and mansions to be paid for so executives of for-profit insurance companies can get their perks. But exactly who is paying for that? You are. I am.

Yes, there will be a shift of finance once Americans get universal health care coverage. For one thing, there’ll be a slump in Learjet sales. And there might be a few mansions that won’t get built. Perhaps some people’s taxes will increase, but they won’t be paying for private for-profit healthcare coverage from companies who exist only to deny coverage.

The alternative? “Socialism!!!! Socialism!!! Socialism!!!!”

“Hey, healthcare is free! Let’s go out and break a bone!”

If your kid has an ear ache and you don’t have healthcare coverage you give him an aspirin and hope it goes away. Maybe it will. Or maybe your kid will go deaf. Lucky you! With a deaf kid you’ve got the Kansas School for the Deaf ready to teach him American Sign Language… for about $50,000 a year. But a $35 antibiotic back when it was simply an ear ache would have prevented deafness. Just where do you want you tax dollars spent?

Did I mention that, whether you get your health insurance “from your employer” or from your wallet, it’s still your contribution to the healthcare system.

“Hey, healthcare is free! Let’s go have a motorcycle accident!!!”

Last I looked, the Crips and the Bloods have about the same healthcare plan as employees of Wal-Mart. In other words: none.
But if you get shot on the street while selling crack, you get the most expensive healthcare services imaginable. They’ll take you to the Trauma Center and do anything and everything to save your life. When the bill comes, who’s gonna pay? You know who’s gonna pay. You’re paying it.
Every dollar spent on healthcare today is paid for by the people of the United States of America. We *have* universal healthcare already. The only problem is how it’s paid for.
Last time I looked, Learjets for insurance company executives haven’t cured anyone.

“Hey! Healthcare is free! Let’s go out and start smoking!”

For all I know, Restless Leg Syndrome is a curse on the order of plague and leprosy. But is it worthy of a Mitt Romney-esque media blitz? Ask your doctor if Jack Daniels is right for you.

Fact is, you’re paying for all those pharmaceutical ads that show up on TV. And *you* are paying for Dr. Galachia’s Ferraris; a guy whose most common surgery has a lower mortality rate than an appendectomy.

“Hey! Healthcare is free! Let’s go out and get appendicitis!”

“SOCIALISM!!! SOCIALISM!!! SOCIALISM!!!!”

Okay. Maybe it’ll show up on your paycheck stub that you’re paying more in taxes. Look at that other line-item that has *no* deductions for health insurance. Or look at the space in your checkbook register that doesn’t include premiums you’re paying which finance actuaries hired to deny you coverage and the CEO’s Learjet.

All of the money that can be spent for healthcare today is being spent. And the present system denies some 40 million people from preventative care or denies basic care from those with “pre-existing conditions”… until it’s too late.

“Hey! Healthcare is free! Let’s all go out and get high blood pressure!”

“SOCIALISM!!! SOCIALISM!!!! SOCIALISM!!!!!!”

*”Regular”=JM Ward of the state with government provided health care and income.

I earned my Medicare but still need a supplement. Total cost nearly 400 a month. Now going to the doctor is practically free so I visit them a lot more than I would if I paid their high prices out of my own pocket.
But SOCIALISM would save me the $400.

“Once again JR makes a personal attack – and the bet is that ksagnostic will not say a word about it.”

Translation:

“Take the baaaaait! Taaaaaaake iiiiiiit! Notice meeeeee!”

Re: Regular
DNFTT

And JR, stop being such troll bait.

Regular..you know not of what you speak…I’d suggest you put that 160 IQ in gear and think for a change.

Mary Caruso
Posted February 5, 2008 at 9:15 am | Permalink

Regular..you know not of what you speak…I’d suggest you put that 160 IQ in gear and think for a change
—————————————–

Regarding what Mary?

Dear MonkeyHawk,

I do enjoy it when you present both sides of the argument! Unfortunately, you seem to mess up the republican side almost as bad as the democrat side.

First of all, Hillary’s approach to healthcare and even the liberal democrat approach is not socialism, it’s facism. (You might review the definitions before you continue.)

You are correct, illness is not market-driven. However, it’s not the ‘luck of the draw’ either.

People that take an active part in their health are healthier. People that take the time to eat healthy, exercise and make good choices in their lives are healthier.

“Universal healthcare coverage isn’t going to cost a penny more than we’re all spending for healthcare today.”

Really? Any proof to back this ludicrous claim?

“Thanks to the Hippocratic Oath, no doctor can refuse to treat any ailing patient.”

Nobody takes the Hippocratic Oath anymore, not even in my lifetime. Many doctors take a modern version but many take no oath at all. Modern doctors can refuse to treat patients for numerous reasons including the refusal or inability to pay.

Now, kind sir, if you would like to have an intelligent debate on healthcare I will oblige. But if all you want to do is present the conservative argument as you see it then argue against it, go play with someone else.

Hank, you better double check your definition of Facism… I do believe you were reading the wrong page!! :roll:

Here is another link:

http://72.14.205.104/search?q=cache:hMhpFersTCMJ:pewhispanic.org/files/reports/46.pdf+study+census+records+phd+illegal+aliens+health+insurance&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=16&gl=us&client=firefox-a

“Hank Price” –

Your “refutation” pretty much has got nothin’.

When a patient presents to a physician, the doctor is obligated by law and ethics to treat that patient. Yes, for-profit corporations can reject treatment once the patient is out of immediate danger (the better to pay for CEOs Learjets, “Econ101’s” sales commissions, Bill Frist’s stock dividends…) And those for-profit providers and insurers spend millions and millions of dollars to not fund actual healthcare, but to preserve profits.

For-profit healthcare is pigs at the trough and those outfits want to suck up money from actual healthcare as long as possible. It’s the American Way.

It’s just, the “American Way” of healthcare is wrong in just about every way.

And why would anybody think that “illegals” would report accurately to the Federal Census??

And are you sure there was a Census taken in 2006? That year doesnt seem right, for some reason….

oops 2004 census…

Distracted by playful intentions of my neighbor
s chihuahua.

Doesnt the Census only happen every TEN years??

Better check that out real good now, Regular!!

Yea, I hear that Linda… I have wondered that same thing about the “side effects” of quitting smoking… And now that new “wonder drug” seems to cause cancer!! Cant win for losing!! :-)

Clark, thats why the neocons are trying to re-define Facism as a liberal thing… They cant blame it on Clinton any longer!! ROFL!!

Mary

You are not paying for my families healthcare.

By the way, the negative commentary regarding the validity of the Bush revenue, growth and spending projections came from the Cato Institute, not from the Democrats.

The Cato folks are far from liberal – if they think that the Bush budget proposal is horsecrap – then it must REALLY be crap.

Christ, the Worst President Ever is trying leave lasting, permanent damage on this country.

“When a patient presents to a physician, the doctor is obligated by law and ethics to treat that patient.”

Wrong. Where do you get that crap? If a patient presents to an emergency room they are required to evaluate the patient. They are not required to treat the patient.

A doctor in private practice is not required by law or ethics to treat anyone. In fact, if a doctor wants to treat a patient for free or at a discounted price he is required by law to evaluate the patient’s ability to pay first.

If I charge BCBS one price for a procedure and charge my cash patients less or if I treat a ‘hardship case’ free or at a discounted price without proof of hardship it is considered insurance fraud. Illegal.

You bring no facts to the discussion. You merely bring impressions and liberal ‘bumper sticker’ talking points.

Heckler
Posted February 5, 2008 at 10:35 am | Permalink
CF2K

“Fascism: private ownership of collective goods”

You make that up CF? What’s your definition of “collective goods?
————————————————–

The answer from the Communists is:

What’s mine is mine.
And what’s yours is mine.

Collective = What I get to collect.

Those Collectivists are contributing anything. Their idea of contributions is to Take from those who earn and Give to those who sit on their fat lazy asses.

Max, cant you even at least TRY to work within acceptable definitions??

Honest, Max, “Common Good” is really in OUR Constitution… Want to tell us why our Constitution, by your rants, is Communist??

Chas, since you are the Constitutional expert, please do explain the full context and meaning of Common Good in the US Constitution.

Max, you’re the one doing the constant Ranting… YOU look it up… It will be good for your intellect to look it up!!

Chas

Perhaps you could cite some documentation from the founding era that leads you to believe that the phrase “The Common Good” refers to a collectivist society.

Max, using the EIC to “distribute Welfare” might be a more efficient, less costly way to transfer funds that would have been paid out anyway. The EIC does encourage recipients to work, as a person without any earned income does not qualify for the credit. Just some thoughts.

The usual Republican mantra regarding the Debt and deficits is yada, yada, we were in Debt before, yada, yada, the deficit is ONLY “X” percentage of the GDP, yada, yada, Democrats, yada, yada, the deficit was higher under yada, yada, etc.

The bottom line (pun intended) is a fiscally responsible government would only run a deficit under conditions of a declared war or severe recession/depression.

That ain’t the case now, nor has it been since 1945.

There is no excuse for the proposed Bush budget – none.

During the 1980 campaign, Ronald Reagan PROMISED to balanced the Federal Budget – he never even PROPOSED a balanced budget.

Neither did George H W Bush or George W Bush.

This crap has to stop before the United States becomes a beggar selling pencils on the street corner of the world.

Christ!

Besides, Heckler, I didnt say what you seem to think I said… But, you have that neoCON reading problem as well… I forgot!! My bad!

CF2K — Let’s not forget that G W Bush’s grandfather was also a great help to the Nazi regime :-)

Come on Regular, you know darned well that Henry Ford himself was a huge fan of Hitler!! Stop trying to flame and bait!!

Good post Sol,
we sit around and bitch about the patriot act, and not say a word about Resonable suspicion searches, we bitch that they can look at our Library book, and don’t do a damn thing about immanent domain? come on people eventually you have say get the hell out of my life..

I’ll lurk around here and when appropriate, will comment (much to the disdain of most of you folks).
And now happens to be one of those times.
To Writerdog and Sol,
These people believe they are intellectuals, historians, economists and mostly “right”. What I’ve seen from them proves otherwise. These self-loving folks are unable to grasp an intelligent thought when presented to them and when they find themselves unable to counter an argument, they rely upon an old and over-used tactic of character assassination and sophoomoric name calling. Zombies and casualties of television and its over-paid, under-brained talking heads these people are.
What I’ve had to come to grips with, is that we have been “casting pearls before the swine”. You guys and myself have posted these things and I’ll bet that they click on the link and see that it has to do with Dr. Paul and upon finding that out, promptly click back and ignore it. They have been trained like the “monkeys” they are to ignore logical fact and treat it as “kookiness”.
Yesterday someone of this “intelligentsia” here (I say someone because there are some many on here that post with different names that it gets very hard to actually know whom you are speaking with) attacked me and almost sucked me into one of these mentally-challenged “debates” so I had to drop out. But I can’t really keep myself from reading this thing.
I understand full well that I’m the “newbie” here, as I’ve only been posting for about 3 months, but I can very easily see the inanity of this forum. But being that it is a forum nonetheless, I must stomache it in the hopes that there are still a few that love truth.
So with that, I’ll go back to my little hole here and leave this on my way out:

In the beginning of a change, the patriot is a scarce man, brave, hated and scorned. When his cause succeeds, the timid join him for then it costs nothing to be a patriot.-Samuel Clemens…sorry Mark Twain

“Uninsured people receive medical care in hospital emergency departments (EDs) under the coercive Emergency Medical Treatment and Active Labor Act of 1985 (EMTALA), which obligates hospitals to treat the uninsured but does not pay for that
care.Also unseen is the percentage of the uninsured who are illegal aliens. No one knows how many illegal aliens reside inAmerica. If
there are 10 (now 15-20 million, they constitute nearly 25 (now 30 percent) of the uninsured.”
http://72.14.205.104/search?q=cache:UMSPRgHQVH8J:www.jpands.org/vol10no1/cosman.pdf+study+census+records+phd+illegal+aliens+health+insurance&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=1&gl=us&client=firefox-a

Vaughn Tolle
Posted February 5, 2008 at 10:52 am | Permalink
Max, using the EIC to “distribute Welfare” might be a more efficient, less costly way to transfer funds that would have been paid out anyway. The EIC does encourage recipients to work, as a person without any earned income does not qualify for the credit. Just some thoughts.
————————————————–

Oh, I know how EIC works. Over the years, I’ve had several employees request to change from full-time $35k to $40k per year to part-time, $17k to $20k per year. Why?

They were losing Sec 8 Hud monthly housing assitance and also losing their EIC money because they made to much money.

They actually told me that.

I suspect they also were on the fringe for qualifying for SCHIP (even though they had premium health plan options in their benefits package), food stamps, heating assistance, etc…

These were people CHOOSING to work less so they didn’t lose their welfare.

These were people CHOOSING to work less so they didn’t lose their welfare.

Of course they were. Wouldn’t want to miss out on entitlements would you?

Government dependence. Why work when the government will provide. Seen several cases of that myself. Create a government that you cannot live without. Then the government controls you.

Thanks Vaughn.

I guess one has to be near “dirt poor” to qualify then.

Having more kids does get you more EIC though you can qualify without it.

I’d like to see all Federal Welfare programs coordinated through one agency, such as the existing U.S. Department of Health & Human Services.

The existing caseworkers would be responsible for reviewing the Big Picture for every recipient. Much could be automated, with one application form completed in person or online or by mail.

Individuals would be questioned and counseled regarding their specific situation, their work status, what are they doing to improve their income levels, have they voluntarily decreased their income from Full-time to part-time, or voluntarily quit jobs in order to continue to receive welfare.

The EIC on the Income Tax form has no evaluation as to what this person is doing to improve their situation, what other Welfare they are getting, etc…

Invasion of privacy? If you want public assistance, then you need to show that you are taking the steps to get yourself out of poverty.

Today, we ensure that people STAY in poverty. We give them money month after month and expect people to magically improve their lives and become independent. Without counseling them, without providing guidelines for continuation or discontinuation of Welfare, we encourage them to stay on the gravy train forever.

What bush and his repub. congress have wrought! Just be thankful we now have a slightly dem. congress or this latest budget proposal would have sailed through.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20080205/bs_nm/usa_economy_services_dc_3

Max, you are just simply DEAD WRONG!! Welfare recipients already have to do everything you just said you wanted. And with the Clinton Welfare Reforms, no longer can people STAY on Welfare roles!! You know, if you would stop feeling sorry for yourself just one day, and actually look at the stupidity of what you rant about here every day, you might get a little better perspective on what you are trying to grapple with!! However, I realize that for some folks, its just easier to throw out a s*it load of garbage, and never even check out the validity of what is said… Just admit it Max, you are just an old John Bircher, without the name!! LOL

Regular, the income figure I gave was for those without children who were filing as single. Need to clarify that. BTW, if married, filing jointly, the credit goes to zero at $14,100 with no qualifying children.

The credit, in 2006, went to zero for those with one qualifying child if total earned income on the 1040 was $32,00 or greater (for single or head of household; if married filing jointly, the credit goes to zero at $34,000); if there were two or more children that qualified, the total earned income credit goes to zero at earned income of $34,000 for single or head or household; at $38,348 if married, filing jointly. In the interest of complete disclosure, and to clear up any questions.

Vaughn, I think your 11:43 assessment is correct.

Again, by having one agency review a Welfare Recipients entire case, and entire assistance package to get a Big Picture assessment completed, then providing counseling on steps they need to take to become independent, would be more effective then just printing checks every month.

We aren’t doing anything to get people OUT of poverty today. We are in fact, keeping them IN poverty.

Oh BTW, for every one of those situations where an employee wanted to work PT instead of FT to get more welfare, the business requirements did NOT allow it. Their choice was to quit a pretty good FT job or not. There was no PT option.

Darn it.

Thanks Vaughn… Even at $38,000 for a family of FOUR… At the higher income rates, the amount of EIC drops significantly the higher the filed jointly income becomes… And as you point out, it ZEROS OUT (Max, that means they get nothing) at that $38,000 amount!!

Thanks for the numbers Vaughn… Poor Max just doesnt get it!! Sorry bout that Max!!

No Heckler, the definition is right… You had it right the first time… must be your meds!!

GOOGLE Facism Heckler… CF2K is spot on!!

Sol and Max and anyone else similarly situated,

The “keeping people in poverty” is, IMO, an unintended consequence of various programs, many of which are “Great Society” programs. This seems obvious to me.

Now, there will always be the poor and disadvantaged among us in society, again IMO. Some of this cannot be avoided, given retardation (physical and/or mental), other disability, medical conditions. The trick is, to my mind, to ascertain what might be done to assist those folks without opening up a “gravy train” for others who might not be ‘deserving’. I am aware that this thought generally underlaid the welfare reform efforts undertaken in the 1990s, which has met with mixed success (again, IMO).

We, as a society, think, and I believe deservedly so, that those who are physically and mentally able should be gainfully employed. However, what, as a society, can or should we do to help those who have at best minimum wage skills to be productive employees? Should there be publicly funded child care? Should employers of a certain size be required to furnish child care for its employees (all of them, not just the “executive level” ones). Is the use of the tax code to achieve social goals appropriate, or should the same be amended to remove various social goals therefrom (this includes, by the way, the incentives for small businesses, foreign operations, R&D credits, deductions for employee benefit plans, as well as those targeted to individuals such as EIC, child care credit, credit for the elderly, home mortgage deduction, to name just a few that exist for businesses and individuals respectively). I know I don’t have the answer, nor do I pretend to have the answer. I see problems with whatever we decide, as the body politic, to do by and through our elected representatives.

CF Chas

What’s the connection to “collective goods”? You havent made it yet.

CF

“Both fascism and socialism focus on the controlled redistribution of what has already been accomplished, rather than more and greater accomplishment. In fact, there is an underlying assumption that what exists and has value is a finite amount with a fixed value. This contradicts any ability of the individual to posit subjective, personal understandings of value.

The difference between fascism and socialism is a fine point in practice. In intent they may differ, but in practice both tend toward consolidation of political power. Socialism typically favors central ownership to a greater degree (in the extreme of communism, all appreciable property is centralized) while fascism emphasizes state control over exchanges more than state control over property itself. With different emphasis, both are based on forced intervention with the individual human acts of creation and voluntary exchange, making creation and exchange involuntary. ”

http://www.promethea.org/Misc_Compositions/PrometheanCapitalism/Fascism.html

“Max” rants –

“We aren’t doing anything to get people OUT of poverty today. We are in fact, keeping them IN poverty.”

Here’s an efficient solution to the problem, “Max.” But it’ll put all sorts of Cons’ undies in a twist.

“Welfare” in America is based on a scheme established in the 1930s for widows of mine workers. Mostly in the Appalachians (think Loretta Lynn, married at 13), miners’ widows were uneducated and had little or no employment opportunities and several dependents. The system was in place and was expanded to the general population in the 50s and 60s.

Conservatives (back then, they were both Republic and Democratic) were so afraid someone might collect welfare they established a huge bureaucracy to oversee ADC and General Assistance. As a result — paying for case workers and administrators — it costs taxpayers about $35,000 to give $15,000 worth of benefits (Medicaid, Food Stamps, Section 8 rent subsidies, ADC…) to the most needy. And you’r right. All that money spent does nothing to get people out of poverty; it tends to perpetuate it.

So here’s a rational approach (and, being rational, it upsets Cons to no end):

Success in America is based on capital, not income. Instead of spending $35,000 a year to dole out $15,000 worth of welfare, the American taxpayer would come out ahead by bestowing a block grant of $100,000 to eligible welfare recipients. With a substantial chunk of capital, they could start a business, invest in education, buy an annuity… truly change their lives. And without the bureaucracy’s expense, the taxpayer would come out ahead.

This proposal, rational as it is, brings out all sorts of Cons who’ll whine that *they* don’t get a hundred grand from the government (and, at the same time, belies all the traditional “Conservative” rants about the work ethic and all those so-called principles they think make them superior to poor people). The self-righteousness of so-called principled Cons vanishes, even against their own best interests, when faced with the possibility that poor people might actually get a chunk of capital to rise out of poverty.

Cons would rather parse out nickels and dimes (and pay an additional $20,000 to administer welfare benefits amounting to $15,000) than address the true issues of poverty.

Even as companies are reporting record earnings, (I believe Exxon just reported the all time record for a quarter), the working masses in the mid and lower groups have been consistently losing ground. The tables have been tilted in their direction for a long time, and even more so in the past 7 yrs.

ghotiphaze, for a reasonable fee, of course. :-)

The mission of the Global Fund is to fight HIV/AIDS, malaria, and tuberculosis around the world. Since 2004, this Swiss organization has received over $3 billion, one third of its entire budget, from the United States. A study just released by the Gerard Health Foundation provides evidence that Global Fund grants are supporting abortionist quacks in China committing forced abortions, which is a direct violation of the Mexico City Policy. The amount of Global Fund grants awarded to China for HIV/AIDS prevention, but also going to abortion, totals $171 million, which means about $58 million of that amount came from the American taxpayers.
This type of treachery must stop. Some other more trustworthy charitable organization can be found to conduct disease prevention and treatment. Cut off all funding to Global Fund.
- – -

A Waco, TX memorial to babies who have died from legal abortions was vandalized over the weekend as someone with an SUV-type vehicle drove over the display. About 2000 to 3000 small wooden crosses were destroyed out of the 4000 in the display, representing the number of daily abortions.
The Rachel’s Park Memorial, intended to help grieving post-abortive families, was officially dedicated in the city of Waco in January 2000 at Church on the Rock on the north side of town.
Those who hate babies will also hate their memorial.

The Kansas Supreme Court temporarily blocks
a Sedgwick County grand jury’s access to patient records from
abortion provider Dr. George Tiller of Wichita.

Lunch — Be back later — Maybe…

Ron Paul Finishes Second in Maine Caucus
February 5, 2008
(Long Island, N.Y.) Three days before Super Tuesday, Tejas Representative Ron Paul gained steam in his bid for the Oval Office by placing second to Mitt Romney in the Republican GOP nominations for the state of Maine and ahead of Senator John McCain in garnering over 35% of the votes. Former Massachusetts Governor Mitt Romney logged 52% of the total votes to win the state.

Didn’t the MSM publish that McCain and Romney won? Huh. Wonder when they’ll print a correction. AHHAHAHAHAHAHAHA Like that might happen.

Monkey

“a block grant of $100,000 to eligible welfare recipients. With a substantial chunk of capital, they could start a business, invest in education, buy an annuity… truly change their lives. And without the bureaucracy’s expense, the taxpayer would come out ahead.”

And if they pisz it away on a decked out Escalade and as much beer and cigs as they can stuff into it? What then?

Many people in poverty are there because they make bad decisions. A big fat grant will just fund more bad decisions. The smart ones, who are in poverty because of some bad breaks, will make the most of it. I fear that the majority will make more bad decisions.

Vaughn thanks, not familiar enough with major acquistions like the one above to know that a suit by not retained employees would be anticipated.

The Supreme Court has ruled twice, once in 1964 and once in 1915, that our right to vote consists of two parts: a) the right to cast a ballot; b) the right to know that is an effective ballot, i.e., counted accurately. Any jurisdiction which prevents citizen-witnesses from seeing a hand count BEFORE the ballots are locked away, is violating the citizen’s right to know that his or her vote was counted effectively. Many computer errors during elections have been caught and reversed. How many have not been caught? (See Black Box Voting, ch. 2 and appendix 2; see the MIT/Caltech Voting Technology report, 2004)

http://www.votefraud.org/ron_paul_NH_newspaper_2008.pdf

As of last Wednesday, all ten states currently listed as defendants in the National Clean Elections Lawsuit were served with the Summons and Complaint. The action is aimed at prohibiting the use of all types of vote counting machines, and requiring hand-counting of all primary and general election ballots in full view of the public.

The lawsuit has raised significant constitutional questions challenging the generally accepted practices of state election officials of relying on “black box” voting machines to record and count the votes at each polling station, and allow tallying of votes by election officials outside the view of the general public. In many cases, states have officially authorized voting “systems” that leave virtually no paper trail from which to audit the vote.

http://www.wethepeoplefoundation.org/UPDATE/Update2007-10-02.htm

Major allegations of vote fraud in New Hampshire
Major allegations of vote fraud in New Hampshire are circulating after Hillary Clinton reversed a mammoth pre-polling deficit to defeat Barack Obama with the aid of Diebold electronic voting machines

Diebold voting machines also did Congressman Paul no favors last night – compared to hand counted ballots Giuliani gained just short of 0.5% from electronic voting whereas Paul lost over 2%, which was the difference between finishing 4th and 5th, as this graph documents.
Mitt Romney profited the most from the Diebold swing, he received 7% more votes compared to hand counted ballots.
In the Democratic race the Diebold voting machines clearly swung the primary in Hillary Clinton’s favor at the expense of Barack Obama, who had a commanding lead over the New York Senator going into the contest.
Zogby polling numbers had Obama leading Clinton by a whopping 42/29 per cent, yet Clinton eventually took the primary by three per cent.
“If I was Barack Obama, I’d certainly not have conceded this election this quickly,” writes The Brad Blog. “I’m not quite sure what he was thinking. And as far as offering an indication of whether he understands how these systems work, and the necessity of making sure that votes are counted, and counted accurately, it does not offer a great deal of confidence at this hour.”

http://www.bostonnow.com/blogs/boston911truthorg/2008/01/09/major-allegations-of-vote-fraud-in-new-hampshire

Michael Isikoff writes in Newsweek: “In the summer of 2003, Warren Bass, an investigator for the 9/11 Commission, was digging through highly classified National Security Council documents when he came across a trove of material that startled him. Buried in the files of former White House counterterrorism czar Richard Clarke, the documents seemed to confirm charges that the Bush White House had ignored repeated warnings about the threat posed by Osama bin Laden. Clarke, it turned out, had bombarded national-security adviser Condoleezza Rice in the summer of 2001 with impassioned e-mails and memos warning of an Al Qaeda attack–and urging a more forceful U.S. government response. One e-mail jumped out: it pleaded with officials to imagine how they would feel after a tragedy where ‘hundreds of Americans lay dead in several countries, including the U.S.,’ adding that ‘that future day could happen at any time.’ The memo was written on Tuesday, Sept. 4, 2001 — just one week before the attacks on New York’s World Trade Center and the Pentagon.

“But when Bass tried to impress the significance of what he had discovered upon the panel, he ran into what he thought was a roadblock — his boss. Philip Zelikow, a respected University of Virginia historian hired to be the 9/11 Commission’s executive director, had long been friendly with Rice. The two had coauthored a book. Rice had later placed him on a Bush transition team that reorganized the NSC (and ended up diminishing Clarke’s role). At Rice’s request, Zelikow had also anonymously drafted a new Bush national-security paper in September 2002 that laid out the case for preventive war.

more at link

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/blog/2008/02/04/BL2008020401554_pf.html

Heckler says:

“In intent they may differ, but in practice both tend toward consolidation of political power. Socialism typically favors central ownership to a greater degree (in the extreme of communism, all appreciable property is centralized) while fascism emphasizes state control over exchanges more than state control over property itself.”

See Heckler??

Socialism favors central ownership… (government) of business and industry…

Facism favors Big Business control over the State, which Controls the People.

Heckler, those are nwhere NEAR the same, or anywhere close to it!! In fact they are opposites!! I am fairly certain you can READ that!! So, how about you stop flamin and baitin for now, and get on about other matters!!

Each year the people of the United States write a check to subsidize China, one of the most brutal, anti-American regimes in the world. Lately it has been in vogue for everyone in Washington to eagerly denounce the egregious abuses of the Chinese people at the hands of their communist dictators. Yet no one in our federal government has been willing to take China on in any meaningful way.

Very few people realize that China is one of the biggest beneficiaries of American taxpayer subsidies. Thanks to the largesse of Congress and the President, China enjoys subsidized trade and the flow of US tax dollars into Beijing’s coffers.

I offered an amendment before the House of Representatives last month that would have ended the $4 billion subsidy our nation quietly gives China through the US government’s Export-Import Bank. The bank underwrites the purchases of goods and services by the Chinese government and others around the world. Unfortunately, only a minority of Democrats or Republicans supported my measure. Apparently, many members of Congress are happy to bash China, but don’t mind lending her U.S. taxpayer money at sweetheart interest rates.

http://www.ronpaul2008.com/articles/36/your-taxes-subsidize-china/

Chas,

You need to get the facts straight. Dr. Paul has at no time advocated reducing the military. All he wants is to redeploy ALL OF THEM home. He is prior service Air Force. Not in any way anti-military.

Does the fact that more military personnel support Dr. Paul than any other candidate give you pause as to your support of Hillary or Obama?

Your post belies logic Chas. Why would someone contribute to the candidate that would ‘lay them off’?

Not at all… Makes me wonder if our military is really that schizophrenic?? SOL, if he re-deploys them all HOME… we simply wont need all of them… Many will be out of work when they DO get back… What is there about this guy that has you wearing blinders??

Not to mention his racist hate literature published in his name for YEARS, but he claims to know nothing about it!! Right… Tell me another story, mommie….

The anti-clinton bunch seems to think Hillary should know each one of her contributors by NAME… and how much each of them gave!!

But, Ron Paul??? He can conveniently claim he knows nothing about hate literature published in HIS NAME!!

Can you imagine Ted Kennedy saying: “Bridge?? What Bridge??”

We KNOW you had hissy fits when Clinton said: ‘I Did Not have Sexual Relations with that woman.’

Put your man Paul to the same kind of scrutinizing tests you want to hold the others accountable for…

SolDevVB
Posted February 5, 2008 at 2:53 pm | Permalink
Your post belies logic Chas. Why would someone contribute to the candidate that would ‘lay them off’?
=======================================

Thats exactly what I want to know, Sol… WHY would they be doing that?? Thousands of those now serving in all of those foreign bases he wants to shut down will be without jobs… If he brings them back home, there will be no jobs for them to do!!

Dont you get it??? EITHER he is lying about re-deployment, and cutbacks… OR, he has something shoved up his CIC sleeves??

Not to mention his racist hate literature published in his name for YEARS, but he claims to know nothing about it!! Right… Tell me another story, mommie….

Do you research ANYTHING? Damn son, you just regurgitate. Look it up. The president of the NAACP has stood up for Ron Paul. Try to think for yourself chas.

Put your man Paul to the same kind of scrutinizing tests you want to hold the others accountable for…

Be my guest chas. Best of luck to you finding skeletons.

NO SOL — YOU back it up… YOU were the one who posted all that crap about military donations… AND YOU among others have posted how Paul wants to cut back military presence all around the world… YOU back up where in the world he is going to put them to work when he brings them all back home???

What does he intend to do??? Create a military State for all of us to be dumbed down to live in, and think we are happy and thriving??

This time YOU back up your own claims… I questioned what YOU said… That means YOU have to back it up…

Just saying the NAACP stood up for him, doesnt answer the question of why he claimed not to know what was being published in his own name!! Thats a major problem!!

Especially given how some of you all want to hold Hillary to a much higher standard of Memory, than you do Ron Paul…

Most important issues:

Our financial catastrophe
Fiat monetary system
Debt to China
War in Iraq
War in Afghanistan
Prepping for war in Iran
Catastrophic foreign policy
Catastrophic meddling with the economy

That would be the top 8 for me.

“What are your most important issues?”

Ending the failed Bush War of Choice in Iraq.

Balancing the Federal Budget.

Keeping the government out of bedrooms and personal choices.

Addressing the National Debt.

Restoring integrity to the White House.

Developing and maintaining a military focused on DEFENDING America.

Using the resources of America for the benefit of ALL Americans.

Protecting the environment.

Developing a sound energy policy and alternative sources of energy.

Fixing Social Security.

Seeing the Bush/Cheney/Rice team thrown in jail for life.

“Can’t wait to have my wages garnished for Clinton’s health care plan.”

Just remember – Mitt would do the same thing.

What mittens will do to this nation I fear more than Hillary. No joke.

YOU were the one who posted all that crap about military donations…

I posted links to the same. You got any links to prove your crap chas?

SolDevVB
Posted February 5, 2008 at 3:18 pm | Permalink
Can’t wait to have my wages garnished for Clinton’s health care plan.

I’d just like to see how she can prove that constitutional. Love to see the SC ruling on same.
===================================

I would like to see just ONE LEGITIMATE back up for that more than crazy idea!!! LOL

I dont believe Hillary said that… Sounds more like HanniRushOReilly!! LOL

Sol, speaking hypothetically, it could be done as are the “administrative” garnishments to collect student loans in default. All it would take is appropriate legislation authorizing the same.

You know, NOTHING that Hillary says about Health Care is even close to what you fools post on here day after day after day!!

Why dont you try actually reading what HILLARY says about health care, instead of what some talking head talk show host WANTS you to think about it???

Sol, PROVE that Hillary said she would garnish pay checks to pay for health care… Can you do that???

And what the HELL is TO&E??? Some kind of Ron Paul code??

And what the HELL is TO&E???

And you seemed to be ever so informed on military allocations. Guess you wiffed on that on scooter.

Isn’t THAT special…

Just for Chas, 2 sources posted above:

Max
Posted February 5, 2008 at 1:28 pm | Permalink
HERE’S YOUR FREE HEALTHCARE! BUY THIS HEALTH CARE OR ELSE!!!!

What’s Hillary gonna force us to do next? Kiss her gold ring? Polish her crown?

http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/politics/5510370.html

Feb. 3, 2008, 10:56PM
CAMPAIGN NOTEBOOK
Clinton open to garnishing wages for health

Democrat Hillary Rodham Clinton said Sunday she might be willing to garnish the wages of workers who refuse to buy health insurance to achieve coverage for all Americans

Max
Posted February 5, 2008 at 1:32 pm | Permalink
Heil Hillary!

http://youdecide08.foxnews.com/2008/02/03/candidates-fan-out-two-days-before-super-tuesday/

In a day dominated by familiar stump speeches, Hillary Clinton made news by saying she might allow workers’ wages to be garnisheed if they refuse to buy health insurance. She has criticized Obama for pushing a health plan that she says would not require universal coverage.

Pressed on how she would enforce her mandate, Clinton said: “I think there are a number of mechanisms” that are possible, including “going after people’s wages, automatic enrollment.”

She said such measures would apply only to workers who can afford health coverage but refuse to buy it, which puts undue pressure on hospitals and emergency rooms. Under her plan, she said, health care “will be affordable for everyone” because she would limit premium payments “to a low percent of your income.”

Vaughn Tolle
Posted February 5, 2008 at 3:36 pm | Permalink
The hypothesis is, Sol, that with universal coverage, the cost per insured would be substantially reduced, thus more affordable.
===============================

SOL — What Vaughn said… So, it wont effect YOU OR MAX!!! So stop your whining!!

Sol — do you remember telling the story about the relative you had living with you, who either couldnt or wouldnt get a job???

THAT is the reason we need Health Care… THAT is why we need EIC… THAT is why we need EBT cards… THAT is why we need SCHIP…

And THAT one is in YOUR family!! I would think that you would be backing these things, instead of jumping on Max’s Right Wing Facist Bandwagon…. After all, this is one of YOUR OWN!!

BTW, how did he come out on his job quest??

And again…………

“I guess none of the “fiscally responsible conservative Republicans” want to discuss the proposed Bush 2009 fiscal year budget…………”

Ok Clark.

Had Bush proposed a $2.5 Trillion budget, you Libs would be crying about how Bush cut the budget.

You would bitch either way.

I’d be just fine cutting the budget to $2.5 Trillion.

I’m sorry — Call it a gut reaction… But I see Ron Paul as a dangerous candidate… Sure he can raise a lot of money, but he isnt garnering hardly any votes… Giulani raise money too, and got what?? ONE delegate?? Ron Paul has ZERO delegates!!

So, why are you all even bothering campaigning for him if he is such a loser?? After all, he has tried this before, and also lost!!

Sort of reminds me of a more intelligent Lyndon Larouche LOL

It would be so wonderful if healthcare was affordable to every US citizen, I don’t know why the conservatives on this blog are so opposed to that idea. The average American cannot afford to pay insurance premiums totally on their own, and if they suffered a catastrophic illness and were uninsured, it would wipe them out financially.
The whole system should be overhauled so that every citizen (no matter what their health history) can have access to affordable healthcare, not just select groups.

In other words, Mary, they should just get over it, eh?? And, I would just remind everybody, there is a HUGE difference between a Nanny State, and a Caring, Compassionate, HUMAN State!!

THAT is the reason we need Health Care… THAT is why we need EIC… THAT is why we need EBT cards… THAT is why we need SCHIP…

It is proggrams like that that people like my brother in law leach from. Way to support the leaches chas.

Ron Paul has ZERO delegates!!

And yet again proving overwhelmingly uninformed.

VT, thanks for the link. I hadnt seen that. And good luck to Florida and Alabama “collecting” their water. I hope they have more luck or better lawyers than Kansas has had in fighting for the water OWED to us from Colorado and Nebraska.

I heard Hillary addressing a water question last night, and she noted that water is and will be our most important resource. I had not heard ANY other presidential candidate speak that way about water.

And as for health care… she also said last night that we are ALL paying too high a price to provide emergency room care for non-emergency issues the ininsured bring to the hospitals.

But ya know, that just illustrates the cons’ desire to socialize the costs among ALL Americans and privatize the profits in the health care industry. That is what we have now.

And that is the status quo the cons want to keep. Figures, no? They’d rather jump over a dime to pick up a penny for the insurance companies.

Can you please describe what makes Dr. Paul dangerous? No other candidate has a more transparent campaign nor voting record. No single candidate can stand on a solid 20 years voting in office and never once compromising integrity and values. If that is dangerous to you chas, then absolutely he is dangerous.

But SOL — What are you calling Integrity?? and Whose Values?? And WHO defined those Values?? Those are important questions to ask…

ANYbody can vote for values… And voting a straight values ticket, can imply having Integrity for that particular list of Values. But are those Values AMERICA’S Values??

Example: Louis Farakahn (I dont like him) has stood on his Values system for YEARS. He hasnt waffled on his Values system… That gives him a “strange” sort of Integrity!!

But, good Lord, I wouldnt want Farakahn’s Values!! So,

Whose Values is Ron Paul standing for??

Sol, I think Dr. Paul is dangerous in that not ALL issues should be decided by the states. A federal republic means some issues belong to the federation. (cue star trek music)

Ever read Thomas Freidman’s “The World is Flat”?

I think the flatter the world, the more the federal government should handle cross state issues. Unclog the courts that way.

States should manage their own finances, and I dont appreciate the feds pushing costs down to the state level. Just like I dont like the state pushing costs down to the local level.

You mandate it? You pay for it. Put the taxes where they belong, no matter where that might be.

Not kidding here. I was 12 when Nixon put a stake through the last of the gold standard. I worried THEN what it might do to the economy. (so I was a weird kid, ok?)

It’s just too late to go back to that now. But I’m betting water and food will eventually have more value, intrinsic and otherwise, than gold.

I’ve already preached enough about water. But have you seen the price of wheat lately? Corn? Soybeans?

Eat local. Learn to can and freeze. And EVERYONE should have a few tomato and cuke plants, even if it cuts into my business :)

There is NO issue the public is more dumbed down on or more head in the sand about than water.

And our unsecured and unstable food supply is running a close second.

But SOL — What are you calling Integrity?? and Whose Values?? And WHO defined those Values?? Those are important questions to ask…

The constitution dumbass. Use the freakin google chas. It won’t hurt. Promise.

Well VT, I dont know that it is so much complicated as the water and food issues are scarey. Those are things we have ALWAYS taken for granted.

I saw an op ed today that said, essentially, Bush has spent the last seven years shredding the constitution, the deficit and economy are out of control…

…and congress is investigating BASEBALL!!!!!!

Sorry, but I gotta say it. JESUS WEPT!

VT, if you are buying bottled water? Yer already paying more than you are for crude oil.

Bring back COLEMAN jugs!

Or if you have a few larger fiat dollars to spend…

BTW, I am no shill for those guys and that didn’t pay me for that. They just work. You could (if you so desired) scoop up some from that cess pit in the back yard, run it through one of those Berkey’s and drink up.

Well Pleefer, that’s good to know, but I also noted at the link that if the water contains bacterial contamination, like the septic system water, you have to add chlorine or some such before you run it through the bottle.

Otherwise? It will run right through YOU!

Nothing worse than being sick in the great outdoors, or a US airport…

?

sorry, rebuttal.

Then what is his problem with Gay Marriage and Abortion Rights??? I mean, he IS supposed to be a Libertarian!! LOL

Pleefer, I was quoting from YOUR LINK!! ROFL

I cited wiki for your benefit. I wanted to make it painless for you.

ALSO, Ron Paul doesnt have much sensitivity for the Reproductive Rights of women, even if he has been present for 4,000 deliveries… That would make him pretty scary for Women voters who want their Rights protected…

Furthermore, Pleefer… All you are doing here now is flaming and baiting… But, I am not taking your bait… So, go phishing somewhere else, ok??

Re: Pleefer

D
N
F
T
T’s

Thank you for your correction on Gay Marriage

Oh wow, just like clock work, I mention Troll, and up pops Regular!! Must be his buzz word!!

:roll:

Now I know I am gonna Just Walk on By!!!

Re: Regular/et al –

D
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F
T
T’s

Well, Pleefer, you go work on that shtick about Classical Liberals being Conservative!!

George Orwell wouldnt even believe you are serious on that one, and he wrote the book on it!!

Just so you know, Ron Paul just got an honorable mention on CNN NEWS

And you are a messenger of what God?

And of course you know that Deism gave birth to Unitarianism?

Of course Deism is part of the heritage of the Unitarians. Others came out of the Presbyterian, Congregationalist, and Episcopalian backgrounds… See William Ellery Channing for a better history and background on the origins of the Unitarian movement, particularly in Baltimore, and New England.

Just Google: William Ellery Channing, or “Baltimore Sermon”

Interestingly, according to a local television reporter, Mike Huckabee pledged three national delegates to Ron Paul in exchange for his backers’ support. Not confirmed. Sounds a little odd, as Huckabee doesn’t exactly have a ton of delegates to throw around.

http://campaignspot.nationalreview.com/post/?q=ZDAyYzM5Y2NiZmU0NmU5NDFhZmNlMTQzNTJhN2E1ZTk=

What exactly is it you think Dr. Paul has against gay marriage? The right to life issue? Again if you would – use the google – you would see that as an obstitrition, of course he is pro-life. And using the google you would see that he feels that it is NOT the federal government’s place to decide yes or no.

Can you type google chas? Here, let’s make it easy for you.

http://www.google.com

And I might add that I’m not a big fan of those CATO people either, but it is still a news outlet to me nonetheless.

I’ll take note grm. I don’t “take the bait” when it comes to personal attacks.

Ummm The Washington Times??? You mean that lovely newspaper run by Sun Myung Moon, and the Unification Church (very Anti-American)

Why should the word stupid even enter your vocabulary Chas? If you want meaningful discussion, you need to stop calling people trolls, stupid, racist and etc.

Oh and Chas, admit that you are wrong every once in awhile, instead of spinning out of control.

Chas which stupid were you trying to fix. If it wasn’t you it must have been Pleefer.

WRONG again, Granny… My reference was to the CATO Institute…

You know, its amazing… If I jump into a discussion, you criticize me, to no end, and level ad hominem attacks…

But if YOU do it, and offer nothing to the discussion EXCEPT ad hominem attack, it is supposed to be OK??? Is that because, Granny, you feel so blessed superior to others, or what???

Regular, do you have anything to add to the discussion?? Pleefer and I were doing just fine until you guys start in with your stupid, juvenile personal attacks!!

What am I supposed to be wrong about this time, oh ye of 16+0 IQ Claim??? Or are you just exercising your keyboard??

That sounds very exciting Linda… i am most happy you got to attend… Wish I was in town, so I could have gone too!! :-(

advise=advice

By the way, Pleefer… I wasnt trying to refute your CATO post… Just trying to post up a different point of view of the subject…

After all, we were talking about the support/non-support of the UUA for the UN…

I didnt see that as any kind of political argument…

Hey, James, I see you know how to cut/paste!!

Congratulations!! You pass computer course 1A — entry level keyboard!! :roll:

Gee, if I wasnt feeling so rotten, I would go cut/paste your comment to JR about touching little boys!! I bet you would just LOVE that one!!

However, we must send our condolences to PMama tonite as well!! Thats what its all about… good competition between candidates!!

Yesssss Linda!! I do believe the future looks very bright!! :-)

I do hope you are right!! I will be doing what I can to help him… what little I can do!

I will quite likely be back at Home Base by November!! So, I should have more time —

Oh, and Chas, we’re having a blizzard here! It’s snowing and blowing. I can’t even imagine what the turnout would have been if the weather wasn’t so scary.

OK folks, go back to your bitchin. I;m outta here!

It doesnt appear that Ron Paul has won anything tonite!! Hmmmm….

Huh?

Kansas called for Obama?

In the auditorium I was in, it was more than 20 to 1 for Senator Clinton!

Not that Kansas is worth contesting if their was any funny business.

The drive home was horrid. I feel really bad for those who had to drive twice my distance. But we did have some die hards who came anyway. They rock IMHO.

WTG PMama!! I am sure the whole process can still use all the help you can give them, regardless of the candidate!! You hang in there!!

BTW, I sent you an email, I think…

Oh please tell me you are not another starry eyed believer in Obama linda.

You see the Republicans on this blog.

You want to WORK with those people?

Well more power to you.

I cannot vote for Obama. I am not convinced he knows what party he is in.

JR, I didn’t caucus for Obama tonight. What does that tell you? ;-) But after it was all over there were several hundred people standing out in the hall from the two separate places we had been and we all were happy campers! Because who would have thought so many Democrats would come out in a blizzard in KANSAS!? And we all agreed that come November we’re gonna kick a**! ;-)

I know several East High IB students (one of my grandsons is a senior in the East IB program this year and another graduated from the program two years ago) and there were several of them there tonight. I asked them IF Obama isn’t the candidate will they remain enthusiastic and will they vote. They interrupted me to tell me HE WILL be the candidate and we laughed and got serious again. They will they said! Some mentioned McCain’s 100 more years in a war that shouldn’t have EVER been. It was sooooo good to cuss and discuss the sorry situation bushco has gotten us into with the brightest and best Wichita has to offer. These young people are our tomorrow and they are sharp and they plan to bring a big change to what the idiot in charge has done to our country!

WELL…. I have a men’s breakfast at 6:30 a.m. so, its time for bed…

Good night; Good luck; and
God bless; whatever you conceive
God to be!

Blessings All!!

Good night Chas and thank you for the kind words.

Ok

I am listening to Obama live just now.

And STILL he is doing the “one America” thing.

Uh yeah, Barack? Our side didn’t start the fight. And we have suffered much.

I am not interested in working with the enemy.