The legislative debate on the Holcomb power-plant bill has sparked a rash of dim-bulbed comments from pro-coal Kansas lawmakers on carbon dioxide, which scientists overwhelmingly agree is a key greenhouse gas driving climate change.
Sen. Tim Huelskamp, R-Fowler: “CO2 is not a harmful substance. It’s an average, ordinary part of our human life anywhere on this Earth. It’s in this room. I’m a farmer, and we love CO2. It’s a good thing.â€
Rep. Forrest Knox, R-Altoona: (sarcastically) “No, we don’t want to regulate that icky stuff that comes out of your soft drink.â€
Rep. Don Myers, R-Derby, dismissing concerns that CO2 is a pollutant: “It is all around us and you breathe it.â€
Sigh. Have any of them heard about the U.S. Supreme Court ruling last year that CO2 is a pollutant that can and should be regulated by the Environmental Protection Agency? Guess not. Welcome to the Kansas global warming discussion. No research required. Just jump right in.
110 Comments
Here Cozzy Cozzy
“Every climate scientist in the world has known beyond any doubt, for at least several years now, that late 20th century warming was driven almost entirely by the very high levels of solar activity between 1940 and 2000 (details below). They also know the corollary: that when solar activity drops into a down phase, the earth will get cold, possibly even precipitating the next ice age (due any century now).”
“If only the sun had stayed aboil for one more solar cycle, the religionists would have succeeded. When the inevitable cooling did come, it would still pull the curtain off of their global warming hoax, but by then it would be too late. Economic restrictions would already be fixed in place, under UN bodies that the religionists control.”
“Between 1940 and 2000, solar activity was at the highest levels seen in the geologic record. Given the known effect of solar wind on global temperature, that means that late 20th century warming was driven largely if not entirely by high levels of solar activity, and every climate scientist in the world knows it.”
Carbon dioxide and some five or six other gases given off by burning fossil fuels in power plants add to the shield around the earth that keeps the heat in somewhat like the plant greenhouses with which we are all familiar. CO2 and the other gases are absorbed by trees and plants in normal amounts but not in the large amounts given off by power plants.
But once again, in Kansas, the water wars are underway. Industry is raiding Kansas for the water hoping our legislators don’t wise up before its to late.
Nice trolling Heckler.
Forgot the link above. Here’s more.
Schneider stated his attitude towards scientific honesty in a 1989 interview with Discover Magazine:
So we have to offer up scary scenarios, make simplified dramatic statements, and make little mention of any doubts we might have. … Each of us has to decide what the right balance is between being effective and being honest.
This calculated dishonesty does not apply only to the magnitude of alarmist claims, but also to their direction. The alarm that Schneider is looking to raise is not over any particular climate change. Neither cooling nor warming actually matters to him. The alarm he wants to raise is over human activity.
http://errortheory.blogspot.com/2008/02/global-warming-alarmists-knew-cooling.html
Heckler does not seem to be much more bright than these idiot congressmen.
And desk jockey heckler speaks of alarmists?
Heh. This is the yoyo that can’t cross a parking lot without a gun!
JR
Go to the link. Read about the statistical fraud. Get back to me.
And I cross the parking lot at work twice a day without a gun. SCAAARY SHITT.
No. The case says that CO2 “could” be considered as a pollutant along with other GHG’s. The SCOTUS ruling states that EPA cannot just “dismiss” and that their determination must be based factually and scientifically in ccordance with the regulations.
As for the quote: “No research required. Just jump right in.” is equally applicable to BOTH sides of this taudry debate about “Global Climate Change”. I think both sides are nuts and reality is somewhere in the middle of the extremes.
Naturally the Climate of earth is dynamic and changes, what degree and how rapidly is another questions, and those have not been properly addressed.
Nah I don’t read you links Heckler.
You’re just another right wing kook.
“It’s in this room. I’m a farmer, and we love CO2. It’s a good thing.”
What does Tim farm in Topeka?
Let’s lock Tim in a small, sealed room. He and CO2 can get real cozy!
The problem with cosmos’s theory on Global Warming is that Climate Change depends largely on the effects of region and extra regional influences.
What happens in the deserts of Australia, doesn’t matter a whit what happens in Northern Alaska or in Kansas.
Average Global Temperature is a kludge of science and wishful thinking - it ain’t happening. Region topographical influences, wind, altitude, latitude, geology and etc. all have more influence on temperature and as we all know, temperature can widely vary from region to region and even in a region itself.
Might as well have an average “wetness” scale for the Globe. Average Temperature is a joke.
Scientists are just now beginning to study water vapor and clouds. They know very little about the physics and the interaction of water vapor with climate. Yet, this does not stop so-called predictions being made without the most influential Greenhouse gas in the World, water vapor.
The effects of wind are generally understood, but not how it affects climate, but how it affects regions. There are known effects of wind on region that do not translate at all to other regions of the earth.
The wind that blows across the farm fields and plains of Kansas is not going to matter much to a metropolitan business man in Moscow.
With that said, there are pollutants and there are energy force radiant (heat from sun) multipliers (soot, dust and etc.) that will affect regional climate.
We should learn to control what’s in our output of air particles and emissions. We also need to control the amounts by actively seeking alternative forms of energy.
Lighting up an empty room in your home doesn’t make any sense, turn the light switch to off. Running the furnace to the point where it dries out your sinuses and skin doesn’t make any sense either. But a sweater or two and get used to slightly less warm temperatures in your home. Using fans to circulate “cooled” air in your house is far more efficient than utilizing a huge refrigerant driven air conditioners 100 percent of the time.
CO2 in Kansas? You bet - it’s all around us - we’re farm country and produce giga-tonnes of it - which by the way is far more than combustion engines would produce.
The problem with coal plants is not necessarily what goes up in the air, but what comes down back to earth (nitrogen oxides, sulfur dioxide, mercury carbon based particles and carbon dioxide.)
Of immediate concern is mercury and ground water pollution. Food chain contamination has more a direct effect on life than most any contamination.
PM2.5 or Particulate Matter that is 2.5 microns in size or smaller is difficult to control. Sulphur and Nitrogen based pollutants in addition to “fly ash” can create PM2.5 - like atmospheric salts.
Sulfur dioxide is a leading source of fine particulate pollution (particles smaller than the width of a human hair) that can penetrate deeply into the lungs. Nitrogen oxides are a main ingredient of smog (ground-level ozone). In addition to causing respiratory problems for children, people with asthma, the elderly, and outdoor workers, smog also reduces crop productivity — annual losses due to ozone for soybeans alone in Illinois, Indiana, and Ohio are estimated at between $198.6 million and $345.6 million. Both sulfur dioxide and nitrogen oxides also help cause acid rain, which may be carried hundreds of miles by the wind, damaging forests, corroding buildings, and killing fish in lakes and streams along the way. Mercury can cause severe neurological and developmental injuries to humans (particularly infants and children) as well as wildlife. http://www.consciouschoice.com/2001/cc1402/note1402.html
Concern about CO2 is fine, but let’s not forget the more immediate health hazards that Coal Fired plants produce.
Let’s not throw the baby out with the bathwater and make silly CO2 legislation that will do little but drive up costs to all.
Carbon Monoxide, nitrogen oxides, sulfur oxides are also all found in nature. However, in the wrong amounts they are definitely considered pollution. Salt is naturally found in nature; but when it is in the Equus Beds it is pollution.
Just as I prefer to get my medical advice from a medical doctir and my financial advice from a financial professionsl; so I will seek scientific advice from fellow scientists rather than hack politicians. These are the same kind of people who swore for years that nicotine was not addictive and cigarettes were not bad for your health.
Correction,
Just jump right in like a Wichita Eagle columnist
So we aren’t worried about the CO2 from coal.
What about the process of coal mining and the transportation of coal. These are things that you never hear about. Blowing apart whole mountains sides in West Virginia and destroying parts of rural Wyoming. What about the millions of gallons of diesel needed to transport the coal by train?
Ben
“so I will seek scientific advice from fellow scientists rather than hack politicians. ”
This is just for you. From same column.(follow the money)
“How did the field of climatology come to be dominated by environmental religionists, glad to promote what has at this point become a full fledged hoax? There have always been plenty of environmental religionists in academia, but Al Gore is the one who gave them billions of dollars to play with, while excluding all “contrarians” from his largesse. As vice president over the eight years when global warming hysteria first made climate science a funding priority, Al Gore allocated every dime. This was his portfolio as President Clinton’s climate science czar. With over ten billion dollars to spend (a huge amount for academia), Al Gore created the current climate science industry almost from scratch, transforming what had been a small backwater discipline into a juggernaut of his own framing.
Ben
It’s about political agendas and power, not science.
Wake the hell up.
“a full fledged hoax?”
Yea, just like the link between smoking and illness is a full-fledged hoax.
“It’s about political agendas and power, not science.
Wake the hell up.”
I’m wide awake. I can see clearly the political agenda and power of Sunflower, Exxon-Mobil, Neufeld, Morris, Hueslkamp …
Ben
Actually part of the smoking and illness think WAS B.S. There’s still been no direct link proven between smoking and lung cancer.
Is smoking bad for your health. Duh, yes. Heart disease, emphysema, yes. Cancer? Not the sure thing we were told it was.
Tree’s and plants use carbon dioxide, if we quit deforestation who knows, maybe planting more trees will pick up the slack.
If the prevailing winds blew East to West and the proposed Holcomb plant would effect Colorado’s air quality, there may not be quite the demand for the plant. Do you really think Colorado would want to make their own air quality worse? No they are a little smarter than that.
Yes, Ben does your financial advisor know exactly which way the market is going 2 years from now?
I remember financial gurus shouting out a few years ago that the best and easiest way to make it rich is through speculative real estate. Well, looks like the trend changed. And these were “experts” saying this. It’s a good thing I did not take the “consensus” advice on that one.
Similiar to the unpredictable financial markets, scientists can only wager an educated guess on things so complex and uncertain as the climate.
WhiteElephant,
Plants take in CO2 during the day for the first part of the Photosynthesis and expel CO2 at night. CO2 levels are much higher at night and first thing in the morning when most GW scientists curiously collect their samples.
CO2 also comes from ground fungi, decaying matter and even plant roots of trees.
Holcomb should plant thick forest around all their coal plants.
I read a study, that people who have a lot of plants in their house, have better air quality, I need to search for it though, if anybody wants a link.
Ya know, huelskamp and nuefeld and the whole hee haw gang made comments JUST as stupid during the whole hate amendment push in 2005. Funny, but no one noticed their stupidity then.
I guess they have to be noted as stupid MULTIPLE times before it sinks in. But guess what?
The folks who sent them to Topeka STILL think they are freakin’ geniuses saving the world in Topeka. It’s likely they will send them back again.
Unless…
You all in eastern Kansas find and fund some intelligent opposition for them this November.
And just as interesting…
If you are howling about Holcomb and concerned about water and water policy, I have a question.
Do you drink bottled water? Because drinking one bottle of water has the same environmental impact as driving a car 1km.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389×2896710
kfg, I’m satisfied. I’ve had my 8, 8 ounce glasses of Wichita river and lake recycled effluent from the tap yesterday and will get some more today.
“I remember financial gurus shouting out a few years ago that the best and easiest way to make it rich is through speculative real estate”
Not the ones I talked to. Only the ones on late-night cable TV.
Sort of like using Time magazine as a scientific journal.
Well, its a good thing Tim has a part time job in Topeka, mouthing the party B.S. line. Wasn’t much of a farmer either.
Gadfly
Have any of them heard about the U.S. Supreme Court ruling last year that CO2 is a pollutant that can and should be regulated by the Environmental Protection Agency?
————————————————
If the Supreme Court says so, it must be so.
Next, the Supreme Court will rule that oxygen is a pollutant too.
You know every plant on Earth would die without CO2. But yeah, CO2 must be pollution and we should get rid of it all because the Supreme Court said so.
Ben, the biggest problem I have with financial planners is if they’re so good at what they do, why are they still working?
The difference between you and a financial planner is you lose your OWN money.
Max, since you’ve flunked Chem 101, oxygen IS a pollutant–especially in the ozone form, but straight O2 ain’t too healthy.
Great for a hangover, though.
Related news from our statehouse:
COAL PLANTS LOOKING FOR VOTES
Lobbyists and Legislators who support the expansion of a coal-fired power plant proposal are hunting for the votes they will need to get around a sure veto by the governor but they face a new deadline from the utility that owns the plant. Yesterday the House passed a bill 77-4 and the Senate approved its own measure last week. The House’s action Tuesday allows a conference committee with three members from each chamber to draft the final version of the bill. Supporters hope the negotiators’ work will pass both chambers with two-thirds majorities, which is what they would need to override a veto by Sebelius. The Senate passed its bill 33-7, with six votes more than necessary for such a margin, but supporters were seven votes short in the House of the 84 votes needed for an override.
Last month, Sebelius proposed a compromise under which Sunflower would be allowed to expand if Sunflower committed to investing in wind farms and conservation programs — a deal the Hays-based utility rejected. Sebelius hasn’t ruled out the expansion if the state imposes “real and meaningful” limits on carbon dioxide emissions. But the bills that passed both chambers eliminated proposals for what would have been the state’s first limits on CO2.
Sunflower has told legislators it needs a permit for its $3.6 billion project by June 1, and some key legislators are taking that deadline seriously. “The timing is important,” said Senate President Steve Morris, a Hugoton Republican who supports the project. “If you delay much longer on the permit approval, then people will have to make other plans.” Sunflower set the June 1 deadline in an agreement it signed with Kansas State University, promising $2.5 million over 10 years for research at Holcomb on “green” initiatives, such as biofuels, wind power and energy conservation. The agreement expires if Sunflower doesn’t obtain the permit. House Speaker Melvin Neufeld, an Ingalls Republican, circulated a copy of the one-page agreement between Sunflower and the university during House debate on its energy bill.
Sunflower spokesman Steve Miller said the utility also worries that its project will collapse if it doesn’t have a permit by June 1.
Sunflower has two partners, Tri-State Generation and Transmission Association Inc., of Westminster, Colo., and Golden Spread Electric Cooperative, in Amarillo, Texas. They would initially receive 86% of the power from the expansion — a sore point for some legislators.
Sunflower says it is concerned that if the project does not have a permit by June 1, they will lose the out of state partners.
The Legislature’s ability to rescue the project appears to rest on whether supporters can persuade enough changes of vote to override a veto. Most legislators support the expansion — and oppose CO2 emissions limits. The House bill includes some green provisions designed to pick up votes from House members who worry about CO2 emissions. There is a mandate that utilities generate 5% of their electricity by 2012 from renewable resources such as wind. The Senate bill doesn’t include a renewable resources mandate. Morris said he doubts such a provision would hurt the measure in his chamber. Some opponents of the plants worry the energy bill will become part of legislative trading of votes as the session progresses.
I’m a farmer, and we love CO2. It’s a good thing.”
Ok,I have to agree with that part–a bit!
They did studies because of the CO2 spike in the meso(mezo?)zoic. Took a group of control plants grown natural today’s atmosphere, and another group–same type, size, etc–of plants grown in CO2 enriched environment. The enriched plants grew at an increased rate–leaves were sickly, discolored, and nutritional value was severly restricted.
I guess this is great news for all the vegetable shooters out there (I refuse to call them Vegans–as if they come from the previous Pole Star!) who spend too much time eating (and defecating) anyway.
In defense of the Party, the “R” beside the name really does not stand for “Retard” its just some come off sounding that way! Ahh I have that damn flu, I seem to manage to stay out of bed for about ten minutes at a time. Too little CO2 I guess!
aw, gee, sorry WDog. I can never seem to catch it. Every bug that goes around goes through my family at least once. One batch a few weeks ago went through 3 TIMES. And I’m stuck going to work every night.
It seems the only time I get sick is long weekends and vacations.
Hope you get to feeling better Dog. My roomie had it too, and she was REALLY sick.
Do I need to bring my magic chicken soup to Wichita?
I’m like you G. Still healthy. But I’m obsessive about washing my hands. Comes from being a chef.
I believe you do need to wash your hands a lot.
But I’m obsessive about washing my hands
Really? See, I take the opposite approach. I agree with George Carlin (Everytime GC does a new skit my wife starts slapping me saying, “That’s what you always say!”), too much washing, all the antibiotic junk out there, and too much reliance on cleanliness is going to kill us all. GC attributes his health to his daily swims in the East River sewage.
Tap, what’s wrong? Just washed your brain and can’t do a thing with it?
“In one of its most important environmental decisions in years, the Supreme Court ruled 5 to 4 on Monday that the agency has the authority to regulate heat-trapping gases in automobile emissions.”
Not exactly a strong endorsement.
JimmyMac posted February 21, 2008 at 8:58 am
“CO2 levels are much higher at night and first thing in the morning when most GW scientists curiously collect their samples.”
As usual, JimmyMac lies about climate science. CO2 is often sampled hourly. Global CO2 levels are measured at remote sites, at an elevation where CO2 is well mixed.
Graphs of CO2 data at different heights, from towers in North Carolina and Wisconsin. Lower heights show the diurnal changes.
http://www.cmdl.noaa.gov/ccgg/diurnal.html
CO2 measured at Barrow, Mauna Loa, Samoa, and the South Pole. Except for different seasonal variations, the trends are very similar.
http://www.esrl.noaa.gov/gmd/ccgg/insitu.html
Well G, all I can do is ask, would you prefer to have a chef who is ocd about handwashing?
Or one who washes their hands once a day, whether they need it or not?
hee hee hee. I do agreed about too many antibiotics and such.
Did you ever watch “Two Fat Ladies” on the food network? The one who died (!) believed germs were good for you and NEVER took off her rings and washed her hands when cooking. She grew up in China and said she drank river water and that was the secret to her good health.
Of course, she died of cancer several years ago. Clarissa, the other one who DID wash her hands, still lives…
Not that I’m drawing any conclusions or anything.
hehehehehehhehehe!
I rather like the idea of global warming (my feet have been freezing since November).
If global warming comes and melts the icecaps, and the sea level rises, something over half the population of the country are going to get flooded out. My Kansas high and dry property is going to skyrocket in value! I’ll sell out, retire to that tropical island that used to be Mt. McKinley, and do my best to help lower the current overpopulation of Bering Sea King Crabs, and grow huge mangos and avocados in all that wonderful CO2! Sounds pretty good to me.
OMG! How many people are taxpayers paying to measure gas??!? What a waste of money.
Then, I suppose you need someone to supervise the gas collector. And payroll. You gotta have payroll! And absolutely no outfit could survive with an HR puke. But with office automation, we probably are paying an IT staff too.
Oh well (sigh). Is there a site in Hawaii? I’ll take that one. I could use some warmer weather right about now.
“something over half the population of the country are going to get flooded”
Jed, there are going to be a lot of blue people looking for higher ground. Make sure your guns are ready.
I’ll advocate for Ba’al Zebub. My wife (and hence she forces the kids) are fastidious about washing before they eat, after meals, etc. They’re breeding sites for any bug that comes around. I’ll come in mired to the elbows, snatch some grub from the fridge and scarf it down. I did catch a cold last Saturday–terrible pain in the chest, headache, nose spewing like the Exxon Valdez, and hacking like a refugee from an emphysema ward. From onset to full effects was about 5 minutes. Took a couple alkie-plus and it was gone before the alkie wore off.
Your call.
hee hee heeeeeeeee!
My roomie caught the crud after she was in Topeka at the legislature for Equality Day.
Hell, I think she got off EASY after being with all that slime…
Me? I’m just in the chicken poop twice a day.
You decide.
Just washed your brain and can’t do a thing with it?
Washed it in hot water, I suspect. It shrunk.
Hopefully the penicillin works on your room mate and that rash and gushing boil clears up.
Speaking of the “Two Fat Ladies”, one of my favorites all-time on the Food Network, the one who died of cancer died from lung cancer. You’ll recall she was always lighting up at the end of each show as the two were discussing their accomplishments as chronicled in the show.
KFG, I concede. CS is even farther than I’d go. It probably wouldn’t be bad if it only went through ONE chicken, but you can feed a whole flock of chickens with one kernal of corn–just form them into a circle.
Yep. I loved her and her attitude that she was gonna enjoy life, health be damned. I cant remember her name though. But I loved her cooking. Everything started with “take a pound of bacon”.
And I loved the motor scooter and side car.
Sigh.
the one who died of cancer died from lung cancer
I bet they were clean cigarettes
*ducks*
WD, you have my sympathies. The kids and grandkids are passing a cold/flu around and graciously gave it to me. It’s a sign that my immune system is down. My defense is echinacea, but I was out of it and didn’t start taking it as soon as I felt the tickle in my nose. Still, I give it three days, instead of three weeks, as long as I keep taking it as I should. A little OTC cold meds helps keep the worst at bay until the echinacea kicks in and my body stops the germs.
I noticed Bill Maher was talking about not getting sick a couple of weeks ago. His guests, mostly conservatives, thought he was crazy. He eats well and takes care of himself and very rarely catches anything. Antibiotics are used only in extreme cases. I agree.
Hee hee heeeeee G. I see you know chickens very well. The ultimate recyclers. I love the filthy little stinkers though. They are always so happy to see me, after they give me hell for being tardy with the food and water.
They are “well intentioned” animals as one of my pals says.
Hey RD, I saw that. He really caught hell from his own guests.
Did you see the Eddie Izzard marathon on BBC this weekend?
hehehehehehehehhehhehehhehhehe….
Big eye roll. I think someone has a crush on me…
Heckler,
Solar activity does not explain the warming since the mid-1970’s
http://www.skepticalscience.com/solar-activity-sunspots-global-warming.htm
There is also no trend in GCR since 1951. No trend means that it does not explain the warming.
‘Cosmic rays don’t die so easily’
http://www.realclimate.org/index.php/archives/2007/10/cosmic-rays-don%e2%80%99t-die-so-easily/
Okay, carbon dioxide is life, so is water but people still drown when they have too much of it. Common sense, can someone see if Kmart has some on sale and give it to the pro-pollution Republicans?
cosmos, while I believe you’re sincere in your beliefs, you tend to be as rabidly (is that a word???) myopic as those who adamantly refuse any evidence of global warming.
so is water
Ban dihydrogen monoxide
Yeah American Way, there is a co2 sampling site in Hawaii.
It’s right next to the most active Volcano on the Island that causes hundreds of cases of asthma every year in Hawaii’s children.
But you know, there is no skew in the measurements they are taking there.
ghotiphaze,
What is “myopic” about being honest?
Heckler’s post at top of thread at 6:26 AM — “Between 1940 and 2000, solar activity…” is supposed to be based on Usoskin’s 2003 paper.
But here is what Usoskin’s 2005 paper says (emphasis added)
http://www.mps.mpg.de/dokumente/publikationen/solanki/c153.pdf
“The last 30 years [of data] are not considered however. In this time the climate and solar data diverge strongly from each other.
…
Note that the most recent warming, since around 1975, has not been considered in the above correlations. During these last 30 years the solar total irradiance, solar UV irradiance and cosmic ray flux has not shown any significant secular trend, so that at least this most recent warming trend must have another source“
Hey Cosmos, I downloaded the two chapters you suggested on the planet vote thread below. Thanks dude!
Check out Cosmos’ recommendation at 11:33pm on this thread
http://blogs.kansas.com/weblog/2008/02/pro-plant-vote-still-allows-for-pro-planet-hope/#comments
ksfarmgrrl,
I’m glad that you like those chapters. I bought the ‘Natural Capitalism’ book back in 2000 — has lots of interesting ideas, real world examples, etc.
Heckler,
You left off an important part of Stephen Schneider’s quote,
http://rpuchalsky.home.att.net/sci_env/sch_quote.html#quote
“Each of us has to decide what the right balance is between being effective and being honest. I hope that means being both.”
Randy
The Supreme Court said that the EPA had the authority to classify CO2 as pollution and regulate it as such.
The Supreme Court did not say that CO2 WAS pollution.
Get your facts straight!
“I bought the ‘Natural Capitalism’ book back in 2000 —…”
But, now all the pages are stuck together.
Signed, Cosmo “Fapper” Cosmo
It’s right next to the most active Volcano on the Island that causes hundreds of cases of asthma every year in Hawaii’s children.”
JimmyMac doesn’t seem to know that scientists monitor wind direction, and exclude influences from volcanic vents.
http://cdiac.ornl.gov/trends/co2/sio-mlo.htm
Any volcanoes near these CO2 measuring sites on towers, 1627 feet, and 1299 feet above the ground?
http://www.esrl.noaa.gov/gmd/ccgg/diurnal.html
Being as volcanoes can spew particulates as high as 10 km in the air, 1600 feet isn’t very high.
Mauna Loa the volcano mountain comprises three fourths of the Island’s Mass and area.
There was an active eruption in Feb 2008 of a neighboring Volcano.
Surface winds don’t behave like wind at higher altitudes which is known to carry particulates and other contaminants.
Re: Fleetwood
DNFTT
“Being as volcanoes can spew particulates as high as 10 km in the air, 1600 feet isn’t very high.”
CO2 is not a “particulate”.
JimmyMac, name the nearest active volcanoes to these two CO2 sites in North Carolina and Wisconsin, 1627 feet, and 1299 feet above the ground.
http://www.esrl.noaa.gov/gmd/ccgg/diurnal.html
First of all: Carbon dioxide is indeed emitted from volcanoes, and volcanoes have been implicated in global warming events because of this. Furthermore, releases of carbon dioxide have, by way of global warming, been said to have caused methane hydrate releases. Methane hydrate floats to the surface, melts, releases methane (which is a more potent greenhouse gas than carbon dioxide), and this causes even more global warming. Meanwhile, carbon dioxide mixes with water (and possibly other chemicals) to make acid rain, which leads to acidification of seawater, which kills seafood because acidic water causes it not to be able to form seashells. Furthermore, some people are worried that carbon dioxide-caused warming, by causing the disappearance of polar ice, is causing the north Atlantic to be less salty. This slows down ocean currents trading warm, less salty water with colder, saltier water, and might conceivably stop it, causing the ocean’s lower levels to be deprived of oxygen. This, in turn, would make it easier for hydrogen-sulfide-belching lifeforms to take up those areas. Hydrogen sulfide is highly toxic and would make the ocean toxic and stink up the air, as it supposedly does off the Namibia coast. (Some have also argued that methane hydrate might be released all at once, get hit by lightning, and go kaboom, with the upshot being forest fires).
Furthermore, while carbon dioxide might not be toxic in and of itself, it can still kill by displacing oxygen, which has been known to occur. (Carbon dioxide is heavier than oxygen.)
Google the following authors:
Mark Lynas
Dan Dorritie
you’ll see what I mean.
by the way, would those coal government people also rail against dihydrogen monoxide, or would they support it? and do they care that their coffee (or tea, or whatever) contains a lot of it?
This is the Richard Rabinowitz who is supposed to be studying transportation at Bloustein, Rutgers U. He is now getting back to work. Thank you.
Ahem.
Excuse me, but CO2 is NOT the #1 greenhouse gas.
Water vapor is.
#
cosmos
Posted February 21, 2008 at 3:26 pm | Permalink
“Being as volcanoes can spew particulates as high as 10 km in the air, 1600 feet isn’t very high.”
CO2 is not a “particulate”.
JimmyMac, name the nearest active volcanoes to these two CO2 sites in North Carolina and Wisconsin, 1627 feet, and 1299 feet above the ground.
http://www.esrl.noaa.gov/gmd/ccgg/diurnal.html
—————————-
Ah cosmos shows his ignorance of basic science once again.
There are no recently active or even dormant volcanoes east of Colorado. Those areas you describe, one would be hard pressed to find any volcanic remnants anywhere close to them. So your classification for these two sites as volcanoes is false.
You don’t know how particulates suspend in the atmosphere cosmos? Your ignorance once again is showing. Particulates just don’t float on nothing, they need something. Try using your brain next time cosmos.
But water vapor is a feedback, not a forcing like CO2, methane, etc..
JimmyMac posted February 21, 2008 at 6:59 pm
“There are no recently active or even dormant volcanoes east of Colorado. Those areas you describe, one would be hard pressed to find any volcanic remnants anywhere close to them.”
That’s vague, but it does make my point that the North Carolina and Wisconsin CO2 sites are not influenced by nearby volcanoes.
Thank you.
No cosmos, you use trickery and deception once again - you know you’re patented half-truths.
We were talking about volcanoes, so what do you do?
You introduce two lonely little sites that you knew had know volcanoes around them.
This is part of cosmos’s constant deception folks, cosmos cannot tell the whole truth if his life depended on it.
cosmos has to lie to promote his agenda.
you’re = your
No “trickery or deception” was involved. I asked a simple, direct question to make my point.
“JimmyMac, name the nearest active volcanoes to these two CO2 sites in North Carolina and Wisconsin, 1627 feet, and 1299 feet above the ground.”
http://www.esrl.noaa.gov/gmd/ccgg/diurnal.html
It’s deceptive cosmos and you know it is deceptive.
Also, it had nothing to do with what was being discussed.
Everyone knows you use deception to make your point.
Then you use your classic “prove that blah blah” or submit your paper blah blah.
Your classic deceptive tactics no longer work cosmos.
No one believes you because you are intellectually dishonest - you only deal in half truths which of course means you lie by omission.
JimmyMac posted February 21, 2008 at 7:29 pm
“Also, it had nothing to do with what was being discussed.”
It was precisely what was being discussed… global CO2 measurements being “skewed” by volcanoes.
JimmyMac posted February 21, 2008 at 12:08 pm
“Yeah American Way, there is a co2 sampling site in Hawaii.
It’s right next to the most active Volcano on the Island that causes hundreds of cases of asthma every year in Hawaii’s children.
But you know, there is no skew in the measurements they are taking there.”
And have you finished your paper supporting E. G. Beck’s bogus CO2 claims?
‘Hissink, CO2 and conspiracy theories’
http://timlambert.org/2005/01/hissink3
There goes cosmos again with his ridiculous assertion requiring people to do “papers.” Only a dishonest, ignorant non-scientist such as cosmos would suggest a thing like that.
cosmos admits we were discussing volcanoes, yet brings up two non-volcano sites.
Another skew of the truth by cosmos.
cosmos is intellectually dishonest and can’t be trusted in a discussion.
Thanks Regular. Now I know to steer clear of the
the Cosmos from outer space. A little nutty? Nuttin Honey.
“cosmos has to lie to promote his agenda.”
Huh?
James where has cosmos lied?
Oh and what is wrong with an agenda to reduce the consumption of fossil fuels?
What? It doesn’t square with your cockeyed water vapor theories?
As with your many nics, you in this again reveal megalomania.
You really don’t care at all, as long as YOU are right. To you.
J R,
All that JimmyMac has to defend his invalid opinions are innuendoes, lies, and false personal attacks.
And the random sock puppets, that wander by…
cosmos has to use dishonest tactics, because cosmos is not a scientist.
‘Beck to the future’
http://www.realclimate.org/index.php/archives/2007/05/beck-to-the-future/
“… The list of arguments against such variability in the carbon cycle is too long even for a post on RC but here are a few of the main ones:
* The fluxes necessary to produce such variations are just unbelievably huge. Modern fossil fuel emissions are about 7.5GT (Giga Tons) Carbon per year which would correspond to about 3.5ppm increase per year (except that about half is absorbed by natural sinks in the ocean and the terrestrial biosphere).
Beck’s supposed 150ppm source/sink in a decade corresponds therefore to a CO2 production/absorption about ten times stronger than the entire global industrial production of 2007 (putting aside for the moment additional complications since such CO2 levels had to be equilibrated at least partly with the ocean and the real CO2 source must even be larger).”
More arguments against Beck’s bogus CO2 claims at link.
McCreepy has to use dishonest tactics, because McCreepy is not a scientist.
But he did stay at a Holiday Inn Express one night - with a mammal yet unnamed.
broken record cosmos, it’s all he has because he can’t discuss the science - cosmos is not scientist.
WSClark,
Must not have been a very smart mammal…?
Again, all that JimmyMac has to defend his invalid opinions are innuendoes, lies, and false personal attacks.
“Must not have been a very smart mammal…?”
Well, rumor has it that sheep are not all that smart.
Of course, any mammal that would share a bed with McCreepy can’t be all that intelligent, anyway.
WSClark,
Notice also how after I provide a link to a noted scientist criticizing Beck’s very bogus CO2 claims, JimmyMac again attacks me — instead of the author of that page.
Of course, Cosmos, McCreepy sees EVERYTHING as a plot against him - not against his party or his philosophy - but against him personally.
It’s all about him and his little tiny world of ego and delusions of grandeur.
It’s too bad that no one really gives a good god damn about him and his scrotum fascination.
Losers will be losers, no matter how you slice it.
WSClark,
He may also believe that it’s a plot against his family, since he often brags about his Kansas ancestors.
And/or against the state of Kansas, since he has claimed that he personally represents “Kansas values”.
“personally represents “Kansas values”.”
Yes, and he is the voice of the opposition to slavery.
And he is the voice a science.
And the voice of law.
And the voice of morality.
And the voice of Christianity.
And the voice of reason.
And the voice of integrity.
And the voice of blog decorum.
And the voice of ethnic tolerance.
And the voice of animals in heat.
Whoops! That last one was wrong.
My bad.
WSClark,
Actually, they are all obviously wrong.
And where is Heckler? Is he not going to defend his Thurs AM posts?
Boy, Regular was at his trolling worst yesterday.
Let’s point out the obvious shall we?
Regular attacks one CO2 collection site because it is close to a volcano, and a volcano can be a source of CO2. Cosmos’ response is to point out that the methodology used during the Mauna Loa, and also brings up collection sites where a volcano is not next door (and therefore volcanic CO2 emissions are not a factor). So, Regular tried to use the Mauna Loa collection as an example of flawed data, cosmos not only directly responds to that with information about collection methodology at Mauna Loa, he also points out other collection sites where the “a volcano is next door” is irrelevant.
Regular’s response?
Tyhe usual intentional and trollish hypocricy and flat out bullsh*tting. Cosmos lies, cosmos is not a scientist, and the one of the most outrageously trollish arguments that I have ever seen: A dismissal of cosmos’ bringing up the other two sites because they are off topic (never mind the fact that they invalidate the very “reason” why Regular brought up a volcano in the first place, the topic has morphed from the validity of CO2 measurements to volcanoes).
Oh, and then there is this gem:
“There goes cosmos again with his ridiculous assertion requiring people to do ‘papers’. Only a dishonest, ignorant non-scientist such as cosmos would suggest a thing like that.”
This is so outrageous that it is essentially a self parody.
I know that this qualifies as feeding the troll, but again, let’s be clear. Regular’s clear agenda here is not rational argument, it is to keep the argument going. It is to collect posts.
Which is why the response from here on out really should be:
Re: Regular
DNFTT
Just trying to refocus cosmos in not to fight his “Don Quixote co2 dragons” and focus on more demanding problems that are immediate and haven’t been addressed.
There are problems with pollution, world hunger, water supplies and soil erosion that have yet to be met.
cosmos and his ilk want to divert trillions of dollars into a program of co2 sequestration that probably will not work because the effects of co2 as project by climate models is inaccurate. That fact, cosmos has stated himself (CCM’s are inaccurate.)
BTW ksassnostic, no one needs you to monitor what I write. There is zero need for you to troll your response and pass judgment on me. You do it for ego and you end up taking one side - the Lib side.
Pointing out that cosmos omits facts that inconvenient to him is not trolling, it’s a fact. cosmos uses dishonest tactics to push his agenda.
project=projected
You self absorbed pompous ass —-
JimmyMac,
Thank you for proving ksagnostic’s 7:30 am post is accurate.
“There are problems with pollution, world hunger, water supplies and soil erosion that have yet to be met.”
Increasing energy efficiency and reducing fossil fuel use (to reduce GHG’s) would also reduce “pollution”.
Human-caused climate change will negatively impact food and water supplies, living conditions, etc.
“cosmos and his ilk want to divert trillions of dollars into a program of co2 sequestration…”
I have not advocated “co2 sequestration”. It is not currently feasible, it’s expensive, and storage is limited, and uncertain.
I have advocated higher end-use energy, distributed generation, OilEndGame, and similar strategies.
“.. that probably will not work because the effects of co2 as project by climate models is inaccurate. That fact, cosmos has stated himself (CCM’s are inaccurate.)”
The climate models are relatively accurate re the effects of CO2.
The largest problems with the models are the future unknown changes — how fast will the Arctic ice melt, how fast will the natural carbon sinks slow, how much GHG’s will thawing permafrost release, etc.
“Pointing out that cosmos omits facts that inconvenient to him is not trolling, it’s a fact. cosmos uses dishonest tactics to push his agenda.”
It’s JimmyMac who lies and uses dishonest tactics. See above.
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