Every spring the Legislature has an opportunity to do something about Kansas’ embarrassing lowest-in-the-nation minimum wage of $2.65 an hour. Every spring it does nothing. This spring should be different. “Kansas is better than that,†said state Sen. Roger Reitz, R-Manhattan. “The time has come to make a statement of fairness to all of our work force.â€
Reitz proposes aligning Kansas’ minimum with the federal minimum wage, now $5.85 an hour and to be $7.25 an hour in 2009. True, most lower-wage Kansans fall under federal minimum wage laws, but one state survey suggested there are 17,000 Kansans earning less than the federal minimum.
242 Comments
Gentle people,
I would like to propose a solution for all of the ugliness on the BLOG.
I know a lot of the people here personally and I’ve really had no animus toward anyone until tonight.
If you would like to have a decent place for BLOGing and if you would like to find a solution (I have one to propose) please contact me by email.
Everyone that contacts me by tomorrow (Sunday) evening I will respond with my proposal.
hank@pixius.net
Just for a little update, I have had 10 positive responses to my request as of this morning at this time.
Most from people I know from meet ups or other friends. So far it is a pretty good representation of the BLOGers here.
I’ll email you all my plan and proposal and request input this evening. I’ll be busy to day until this evening.
Thanks for your continued support!
Hank
hank@pixius.net
I think it should be raised but let’s be real now- how many folks in Kansas work for $2.65 an hour? In fact very few people even work for the federal wage!
I’d venture to guess that those “10″ you claim responded to your “plan” are your reichwing cronies.
This battle will NEVER end Price. We (the moderates of the world) will continue to engage you and your allies until YOU stop viewing the world through your warped, religion tainted, hate-filled glasses.
We all know THAT isn’t going to happen………..let the hostilities resume!
Kev – when this issue came up in the legislature last year, I think I remember reading that an increase in the Kansas minimum wage would positively affect something like 17,000 workers. The bad news is that when this subject came up last session, there was a vote immediately before the defeat of an increase. The vote before was to ELIMINATE completely the minimum wage law. It failed by one vote, as I recall. I don’t think this bodes well for passing a higher minimum wage – at least not until we have another election.
Kev, while a low percentage work for that 2 buck and change, you’d be amazed at the number working below the less than 6 bucks. Many jobs you have to work at least a year to get longevity to hit 6 bucks. I have no clue what your current wage/salary is, but a single person, no dependants would have a hard time making ends meet at 6 bucks an hour, unless he was willing to give up one or more of the luxuries of life such as housing, food, climate control, clothing…
And the Reps wonder why people go on the dole? Why bust you keester 40 or more hours a week making a nice payment on 2nd or 3rd house for some unappreciative dolt and end up with nothing yourself? If you go on the dole you get a house and food and climate. Duh, that’s a no brainer!
Most people who earn the minimum $2.65 an hour, are resturant watistaff and servers, with the tips they make, their making more around 9-14 dollars an hour.
Why would you want to pass a “minimum wage increase” and continue to allow illegal aliens to work here with no penalties to businesses?
If illegal immigration continues the minimum wage is a moot point. That is why the employers hire illegal aliens, because they can pay them less, pay them no OT and make them work extended uncompensated hours.
NO, to you on the left wing, you cannot have it both ways. You are talking out your arse.
Geez isn’t Kansas lame enough as it is without this added stigma?
Why not try LEADING the way as to minimum wage? Ya know? To at least give people some reason to come here?
Won’t it just increase the price of everything? The reason it’s higher in other areas is that other states have a higher cost of living. I don’t think it would change people’s lives significantly if we raise the minimum wage and cause the cost of living to go up in Kansas. Perhaps we should make higher education more affordable so more people could learn marketable skills and earn more.
I heard a con talking head one time on some show or other. He was WHINING “But, but, if the minimum wage goes up everybody else will want a raise too!”
And I’m thinking to myself, this is a bad thing?
How much good does it do JR, if it makes the cost of everything else go up? Maybe the solution is that those who want to live above the poverty level get an education and a skill that will afford them the lifestyle they desire.
I want one of those 50 dollar an hour lettuce picking jobs John McCain was talking about.
I was in the House gallery with a group of students on the day this was debated last year. It would have been laughable if it hadn’t been so pitiful to watch as speaker after speaker – republican and democrat alike- stood to explain why they were going to vote for or against the increase in state minimum wage. The significant majority of our legislators clearly didn’t have a clue as to what the guidelines are that establish eligibility for the STATE minimum or who those workers are who are subject to the STATE minimum. Representative after representative stood and sited examples or data as germain that was in fact clearly related to the Federal Minimum wage. It was pitiful. My students were appalled.
It is an educated guess that less than 20,000 Kansans work in business SUBJECT to state minimum wage. More clear is the reality that most of those workers are from one of two groups living with substantially different circumstances. First are those family members, young people, and temporary laborers employed in small family-run manufacturing and agricultural businesses. And although there is apparently no accurate data, it appears that relatively few of those individuals actually earn THE minimum wage. Rather some may earn as much as double the state minimum wage; but they are still earning less than the federal standard.
The second group consists of adults with developmental disabilities employed in “sheltered workshops.” Most of these individuals recieve federal “Supplimental Security Income” and any increased income would be offset by a dollar for dollar decrease in in their (SSI)public assistance. Is that bad? The director of a state organization that advocates for this population see it as a valuable, if small validation, of their place in society.
It would be careless to draw the conclusion that the number of citizens impacted by this law is sufficiently small as to relegate this to a back burner. I suspect each of those citizens would if asked, describe this as a big deal. But no one is asking them. They are amongst those citizens least visible, least powerful, and least likely to speak publiclly on their own behalf.
Understand, there has been no clear request for continuance of the state minimum wage even from those employers who may legally pay such wages.
This is a POLITICAL battle being fought blindly and recklessly by narrow minded politcians defending political rhetoric rather than the best interests -and image- of Kansas and Kansans.
That said, $2.65 an hour? This is shameful. Who are we kidding? Gary Bachman
My daughter is a waitress working for the 2.65 to support her and her daughter. She is an American Citizen, born and raised in Kansas, has an associate’s degree and is working toward her bachelor’s degree. In the meantime, I work two jobs to help her pay child care, etc. so that she doesn’t have to resort to welfare to make ends meet. She is not uneducated and not lazy, just unable to find a decent job. Yes, she makes tips, but those are erratic and she can’t depend on them. In the meantime, the person who owns the restaurant is getting rich off of his slave labor. The patrons of the restaurant shouldn’t have to pay his help for him (via tips). It’s time for ALL Kansas workers to make the federal minimum wage. (PS In one place she worked, she had to OVER REPORT her tips and pay taxes on money she didn’t even make, just to keep her job. Her boss said if they weren’t making a certain amount of tips, they weren’t good help. Reality was she worked night shift and the drunks who came in for breakfast to sober up didn’t have any money in their pockets for tips. This was a NATIONAL RESTAURANT CHAIN which I boycott now because of these unfair practices).
I don’t know how anyone can live on the minimum wage, they can’t. All the more reason why people need to learn marketable skills so they can actually earn a reasonable living. To me, minimum wage is meant for a high school kid wanting to earn some pocket change, not an adult trying to support their family alone. No one can support a family on $2.65 a hour…but they shouldn’t expect to.
I think we need to ask how children attend and graduate from Kansas public schools, but are only qualified to do work that pays so little.
Hey Buck, Regarding restraunt workers & tips.
Actually most resturant workers are employed under FEDERAL minimum wage guidelines. These is a stipulation in the federal law regarding workers who typically earn tips. The employer can establish a core salary that is to be supplemented by tips. But the employee must earn a combined hourly income equal to the federal minimum wage. If the tips are insufficient the employer must make up the differnce.
This variation of the law was established in an effort to assure the collection of taxes on historically unreported “tip income.”
If the resturant, or any business, acceptes payment by “credit card” that business is considered to be in involved in inter-state commerce and thus becomes subject to federal minimum wage.
Well I work independently so this does not effect me EXCEPT to generally elevate the value of labor.
We don’t think enough about the value of labor.
For those who have no problem with this pittance of a minimum wage, stop and think.
A human being is losing an hour of their life. That hour is sold to someone who will have complete and total authority over them. They will be told what to do, when and for how long. If they displease their employer for any reason at all they can have their living denied them.
And that is only worth $2.65 for that hour?
In a place like Kansas?
working granny, no one in their right mind imagines wait staff makes 14 bucks an hour. I know where you’re coming from. Heck, even at $9 an hour the reps would be moonlighting, bumping everyone else out needed income. I mean, ya have to SOMETHING through the course of the day to tire enough to sleep tonight. making $9 an hour beats paying the $150/month to Balley fitness.
Can anyone name a job which pays less than the federal minimum wage, besides being a waiter?
How many of those 17,000 jobs are in the waiting service?
After tips and everything else, they are hardly making below minimum wage anymore.
So when they are talking about those 17,000 people being given a raise, the only thing I am thinking of is how your going out to eat is going to cost considerably more.
In which case, if you think they are not getting paid enough, leave a larger tip.
Problem solved.
Can anyone name a job which pays less than the federal minimum wage, besides being a waiter?
*waves hand*
I began my job 3 years ago at 5.50/hour. True withing 3 month probat period it was bumped to 5.75. 3 months later up to 6. Temp help coming in was making 6.50. I’m up to 9.0 right now after 3 1/2 years and that’s only because I somehow warranted a .25 raise 18 months ahead of schedule. I’m thinking of quitting and waiting tables though, as it’s so lucrative.
In which case, if you think they are not getting paid enough, leave a larger tip
We do! Do YOU????
Ghotiphaze,
So what was that job of yours which paid less than the federal minimum wage?
And yes, if that was all you were making, you could easily make more being a waiter.
I always leave good tips.
Factory work, machine operator. Fast paced wielding knife most times.
You don’t start making money in factories until you begin having a workforce over 50 (the point that turnover becomes a nuisance), you can run CNCs (I’ve cranked Bridgeports for the same 6 an hour), or you happen to be in aircraft.
Oh, forgot, gov’t work. Been there, too.
Nate, your argument falls down in the face of all the ‘help wanted–waitress’ posters at restaurants correllated against all those in those small factories where you have to know a whole lot more than marking which table which item to which seat on the order. I know, few wait staff do that, as they happened to be skilled enough to keep a dozen orders straight, just stressing the minimum skill involved in that job.
Very simply, if an employer can’t or won’t pay a living wage to his employees, he has no business hiring them in the first place, and probably shouldn’t be in business at all. Maybe our current legislature missed it, but Kansas was never supposed to allow slavery!
Jed, since Bush got in the attitude is,” If you don’t like it, there’s the door. I’ll have someone taking your place tomorrow.” One other person than myself are the only ones still on my shift after 3 1/2 years I’ve been there, and I’ve seen about 40 others come and go.
Dang it ghot I knew there was a reason I like you.
Former machinist myself. Brakes, punch, extrusion etc.
And I confirm you on when bush got in. That very day, management started getting froggy.
And that was in a union shop!
It took them a little over 3 years to start breaking people. My own health was destroyed and we had one poor old fella die on the job. In general, out with the old in with the cheap AND inexperienced. What’s left now are people so scared for their own jobs that they are constantly backbiting each other.
Ya know what? Forget raising the minimum wage. Repeal Taft Heartley and let workers negotiate for their rights and compensation.
PLEASE raise the minimum wage.
That’s the ONLY way JR will get a raise. And those like JR, who are totally incapable of finding work that pays more then the minimum wage will get a raise too.
Course, you have to be working, and working below minimum wage to get a raise by Government.
What ever happened to the anti-establishment types who protested government in the 60’s? This same crowd now wants more Big Brother Nanny State Government.
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who are totally incapable of finding work
Spoken like all the corpulent microcephaloids I’ve run into over the years who never got off their fat asses a day in their life, couldn’t tie their own shoes without 3 peons to slap around for doing it wrong, and had daddy get his education (wasted) and job.
Max, I hear Hank calling you.
The point:
Anyone working for $2.65/hour is not capable of working at McDonalds.
Now what does THAT say about Publick Edukation?
And anyone whining and crying about not having health insurance, isn’t even willing to go work at McDonalds.
Nate! Max just listed jobs paying under fed min. wage that aren’t wait jobs. Thanks for making our point, Max.
BTW, Max, you’d never be able to get those jobs. You’d actually have to do something, and the others you’d not last long enough at the peon jobs to aquire the skills for the management (7.75 for a MANAGER????)positions.
Max, it’s obvious you never had to stoop so low that you had to work at McDonalds. Yeah, McDs pays higher than your common wait job. When you calculate that they schedule you to less than 20 hours a week so they DON’T have to give you those benefits they talk about. Plus give you such a convoluted schedule that you can’t even get another job to compensate.
Now what does THAT say about Publick Edukation
Max, your Laurie Bush has castrated public education with her NCLB that teachers can’t even teach anymore. People are SUPPOSED to be just smart enough to work to death in your factories but too stupid to realize it.
BTW, Max, read the paper. Your PRIVATE schools are fareing little better–equal poverty levels accounted for–than the public schools. So what has all your money bought you? Higher class indentured servants?
JR,
Forget repealing Taft-Hartley, just amend the “Kansas Right to Work” law to include a “Right to Actually Get Paid For It, Too!” provision.
$24,000 a year and up for McDonalds managers Ghoti.
That’s $6,000 a year MORE then what you make in that job you have had for 3 years.
Max, you work 10 years for 20 hours a week before they make YOU a manager. The only ones who last that long are kiddies living off their mommies, so don’t even need the money.
Like I tell my boss, “you can tell those who work for booze and broads and those that work for beans and berth”
ghotiphaze
Posted February 24, 2008 at 11:46 am | Permalink
Max, it’s obvious you never had to stoop so low that you had to work at McDonalds. Yeah, McDs pays higher than your common wait job. When you calculate that they schedule you to less than 20 hours a week so they DON’T have to give you those benefits they talk about. Plus give you such a convoluted schedule that you can’t even get another job to compensate.
——————————————–
Ghoti,
I’ve worked my tail off in the farm fields from -20 to 110 degrees above zero. Pushed 500 lb grease barrels outdoors on ice loading semi-trucks.
I didn’t start at the middle. I started at the bottom. And so do most people. It takes WORK to move your way up.
Try it sometime.
That’s where you all have your downfall. You see these numbers, yet you haven’t a clue what they mean.
Nate assumes waitress makes $15 an hour because she makes tips. He doesn’t consider that she has to split that tip with the cook, the buss boy, the person who seated you at the table, and the cute girl who does nothing but smiles and takes your money.
So did you buy your farmland before or after the price went through the roof? Or was it something Daddy gave you? And as a farmer, I’d better not ever hear you disparage the teachers getting 2 months off a year. I come from farm family, too.
No Ghoti.
When I was the buss boy and the diswasher, I got NO tips from the waitresses.
Course I didn’t stay in that dead-end job forever either. Who does?
It isn’t that way these days max. Plus you get taxed on tips–wheter you make them or not.
Oh and Ghoti, speaking of Hank.
Read this CLASSIC from Hank from the other day.
http://blogs.kansas.com/weblog/2008/02/better-gun-screening-for-mentally-ill/#comment-298727
Hank’s rags to riches story is not unique in America. Not that it is easy to achieve, but that there are many people who do work hard to take advantage of the opportunities that are in America.
While many would love to trade places with Hank TODAY, not all would be willing to trade places with Hank 30 YEARS AGO – and then do the work he did in order to be successful in achieving the American dream.
Max, Hank has somewhere between little and no credibility with me. I think Steven King or Dean Coontz would be more worth my time. Anyone who professes so loudly how pius he is and then continually demonstrates how vile and vindictive and petty he really is deserves none of my time.
ghotiphaze
Posted February 24, 2008 at 11:59 am | Permalink
So did you buy your farmland before or after the price went through the roof? Or was it something Daddy gave you? And as a farmer, I’d better not ever hear you disparage the teachers getting 2 months off a year. I come from farm family, too.
———————————————-
No it wasn’t MY farm Ghoti. I wish.
I was the hired hand. That’s how I paid for college.
Max, this isn’t the 50s anymore. You can’t pay for college on farm hand wages. You can barely do it on city government wages and only if you’re willing to hock your soul for 30 years to pay the student loans. I know, I did it TWICE–once for my wife, and the other for me.
I disagree Ghoti.
Hank’s a great role model for anyone chasing the American dream and willing to WORK for it.
Instead, many want the American Dream handed to them. For doing what? Nothing. For being born.
Some people really can’t complain too much about not achieving their American dreams of success, we have immigrants that come here from countries with horrible labor laws, and they achieve their American dream in 5 years and open up a business.
I don’t know Ghoti, college cost much less years ago. But then I was working for $2.65/hour.
Now I see farmworkers being hired from $10/hr to $15/hr. Including 2 of my kids who also are working to pay for college.
Even after college, while working an entry level full-time job, guess what I did for vacation?
Took two weeks off in the summer to go work in the fields again.
Why? To earn extra cash for a down payment on a house.
Great point White Elephant. Those success stories are everywhere. And those immigrants moved thousands of miles to find a better way of life for themselves.
And some in Kansas complain that they can’t find a great cozy job in their hometown, and just sit there and stew. They can’t even bother to move a couple hours away to Kansas City to find a decent job.
OFFICE SPACE
Peter Gibbons: What would you do if you had a million dollars?
Lawrence: I’ll tell you what I’d do, man, two chicks at the same time, man.
Peter Gibbons: That’s it? If you had a million dollars, you’d do two chicks at the same time?
Lawrence: Damn straight. I always wanted to do that, man. And I think if I had a million dollars I could hook that up, cause chicks dig a dude with money.
Peter Gibbons: Well, not all chicks.
Lawrence: Well the kind of chicks that’d double up on a dude like me do.
Peter Gibbons: Good point.
Lawrence: Well what about you now? what would you do?
Peter Gibbons: Besides two chicks at the same time?
Lawrence: Well yeah.
Peter Gibbons: Nothing.
Lawrence: Nothing, huh?
Peter Gibbons: I’d relax, I would sit on my ass all day, I would do nothing.
Lawrence: Well you don’t need a million dollars to do nothing, man. Just take a look at my cousin, he’s broke, don’t do shit.
You said it re Hank there ghot. I had missed his little missive the other day. It changes my opinion of him now one bit.
He seems to have at the very least forgotten where he came from.
And as to credibility? “Max” hasn’t told us yet about changing tires on Christmas eve. But the other stories he relays are vintage “JM” “Regular” etc.
Hey James? Why don’t YOU go work at McDonalds?
Oh, but you’d probably bust their budget for name tags.
The whole management/labor dynamic in America is screwed up. In Europe employees are treated as valuable.
we have immigrants that come here from countries with horrible labor laws, and they achieve their American dream in 5 years and open up a business
And for every one of those, how many thousands spend their lives in poverty. You can’t tell me the 50 oriental cuisine restaurants in Wichita are the sum total of oriental immigrants.
Next you’ll expect me to believe everyone going out for high school football will go pro.
Yeah, I know it happens, but it’s an exception not a rule. And I’ve worked with many oriental immigrants. And I’ve yet to see ONE that wasn’t an ass-busting hard worker.
One of my ex-bosses kept telling me I couldn’t quit because I had a wife and kids to take care of. When my wife got her teaching job, I said I can quit now! I guess they made out, though, they hired 2 people to take my place–3 if you count the guy that I was always having to follow behind cleaning up for that only lasted another 6 months.
Another thing he kept telling me: “I can do anything I want to you. It’s your word against mine and who’re you going to believe”.
I gave 6 weeks notice when I left, if you consider vacation accrued.
Say JR, you should go to Europe then.
Just who are these 17,000 underpaid people?
I’ve seen a lot of guess, but no documented (pun intended) facts.
Is Kansas the only state that has a minimum wage this low? I can’t believe the minimum wage has never been raised in Kansas. No one could expect to live on $2.65 an hour.
I will bet anyone against raising the minimum wage either owns a company who pays people this low or they make alot more than $2.65 an hour!
Actually, JR, Europe is a mess.
A large portion of Eupopean labor is Moslem, these days, and they riot rather frequently.
Also, Europe has much higher unemployment, historically, than the United States.
Socialism ruins countries.
Success, in America, is a ladder.
If you want to move up the ladder, you take the next step UP the ladder.
Liberals want to remove the bottom steps.
Removing the bottom steps does not guarantee that anyone will ever make it to the higher steps.
The Minimum Wage is stupid.
The government can not guarantee the value of your car or your house or your 401(K).
The government sure as hell can not guarantee the value of your labor.
More to the point: some jobs are not worth minumum wage! How does it serve the public good to simply eliminate those jobs?
You are knocking the bottom steps off the ladder.
You are doing nothing to help people climb the ladder.
You may, in fact, keep people from ever getting on that ladder in the first place.
The Minimum Wage reduces the labor pool, it keeps more people from developing a resume or work history, it actually HURTS those at the bottom, while it makes the labor market, for experienced help, smaller.
Nobody is forcing anyone to work at any job.
Forcing employers to pay too much, for a particular job, will only serve to eliminate that job.
Again, this does not help the poor.
Devaluing labor ruins societies.
“More to the point: some jobs are not worth minumum wage! ”
Name one. Then go tell the person doing that job that to their face.
But you won’t. It’s easier to devalue people from a distance.
JR
Your value, as a worker, is determined by YOU and YOU alone.
Hard work and loyalty and attitude will win over envy and sloth, every day.
Government can not dictate the value of anything. Only the marketplace can do that.
By the way, those of you complaining about restaurant pay?
Restaraunts are, historically, one of the riskiest businesses you can get involved with.
Ever notice how often restaurants fail?
The government does not guarantee anything to the owners, the owners took a RISK!
Success, in America, is based on your willingness to invest and take risks.
What education have you taken, to help move up the ladder?
What investments have you made, to make yourself more valuable to your employer or your customers?
How much of YOUR peronsonal finances have you put into “risky” but job-producing ventures?
Those who pay any wage at all have more moral authority, concerning the “poor” than any of the rest of you, who have not taken ANY technical classes or ANY college classes and have NEVER tried to employ another person, either directly or through your investments.
““More to the point: some jobs are not worth minumum wage! ”
You built that box paulie.
Now for all of our readers and posters you are on the spot.
Just exactly which jobs are not worth $2.65 an hour?
JR
There have already been examples posted on this thread.
But I will give another. I worked with a disabled guy for several years. He had a horrible attitude, but the customers at Safeway kind of liked his grumpy moods. He would get the shopping carts out of the lot, and do other such work.
The manager of the store was a man blessed with “enlightened self interest” I think.
Lots of mentally retarded and disabled people in this city. Many of their families went out of there way to come check on this kid.
He made “tips” in the parking lot, though the company frowned on it.
He had full medical benefits, but was never paid more than minimum wage.
It was questionable, to me, if he was “worth it” but I supported the manager’s decision to keep him on.
After Safeway closed this kid had to go on welfare for his insurance, I think.
Most people will never be forced to “stay” at minimum wage.
—-
By the way, JR, how many employees to you have?
NOBODY is worth ANY wage at all, to YOU, huh?
Again, if you have never hired anyone, ZERO is less than minumum wage.
If you have never hired anyone, you have paid less than minimum wage!
Oh and don’t personalize this to me like you always try to paulie.
“““More to the point: some jobs are not worth minumum wage! ”
Tell us who. What do they do that you think is nearly worthless? You a shuffler of paper and counter of other people’s money.
Let’s have it. What jobs do not rate $2.65 an hour?
You gave a rather telling and judgmental example of one there paulie.
Your shot was a lot wider.
Own up or crawl off.
Paul has said that some jobs are not worth minimum wage.
Anybody else wanna second that and give the example he can’t or is afraid to?
JR
YOU can not afford to pay anyone anything can you?
So, do not tell employers how much THEY should pay.
You pay NO wages, at all, do you?
That is not being “personal” that is a statement of fact.
You are a business owner.
You have made a valid decision that nobody is worth what it would cost, for you to hire anyone.
Therefore, YOU have decided that nobody is worth minimum wage, to YOU.
JR
So, you want an example, I tell you that other examples exist, upthread, and then I give my own, personal experience with a mentally retarded co-worker.
Now, you tell me my example does not count, some how?
No, JR.
This is logic, and minimum wage arguments always fail the logic test. Minimum wage laws are counterproductive and hurt the poor and the disabled more than anyone else.
Oh and by the way?
The minimum wage provides a bottom.
For those folks paul thinks are well near worthless?
And of course my opinion of him is well known but bares repeating.
I digress.
Take out that bottom? And EVERYBODY becomes subject to what folks like paul decide they are worth in what they do.
Call is still open paul. Which jobs do you want to START devaluing to zero?
It’s easy to devalue labor when you yourself only deal in other people’s money isn’t it paulie?
A little harder to actually point your finger at a working person working one helluva lot harder than you and call “Worthless!”
JR
You are a “private contracter” no?
And, when you hire out your services, do you need someone else to tell you what those services are worth?
And, when you find someone has bid, say, $1000.00 on a job that you would do for $900.00, would you not resent it if the government told you, and your customer, that the two of you had no right to make such a deal, between yourselves?
JR
I am guessing that I have spent more years working for an hourly wage, or a salary, than you have.
What hour of a human life in labor is worth less than $2.65 an hour paulie?
And when you take out that bottom, who are you going after next?
They’d probably like to know.
That last brings the illegal immigrants you want here into the mix paulie. Exploiting THEM to to further devalue labor.
No distractions.
Which job that you know of is worth LESS than $2.65 an hour?
You get to be “GOD” in this matter paulie.
What job can you think of that is worth less than $2.65 an hour?
JR
Only someone with very very low self esteem, who has perhaps done NOTHING to increase the value of his or her labor, would worry about the minimum wage.
I would guess that YOU might want a higher minimum wage because it would cut down on your competition.
Your competition could not hire people who could do the job cheaper than you.
So, they will have NO job at all, and you can sell your services at a higher price.
JR
You are not worth minimum wage
If YOU were worth minimum wage, someone would hire you.
Prove me wrong JR.
Get a job!
What human being, gainfully (barely) exploited by someone with more money do you tell that there labor is worth less than $2.65 an hour paulie?
It’s a simple question.
I work for me paulie.
This does not mean I forget others. If I devalue their labor, the value of my labor falls as well.
When you trade your car in, or sell it yourself, does the government need to set a “floor” or “bottom” on the price of that car?
NO!
People will not ever be forced to work anywhere that they do not want to work, at least not for long.
Why doesnt EVERY job pay minimum wage, and no more?
Why does ANY job need to pay MORE than minimum wage?
Your logic fails, JR. The “minimum wage” does not set a “floor” of any type.
The “minimum wage” simply knocks the bottom rungs off the ladder of success.
The minimum wage destroys jobs.
You have no right to tell a worker and an employer how to draw up the contract, between them.
It is none of your business.
A corporate CEO’s job or a Congress man is worth less then $2.65 an hour.
Think about it, with all the frills, bonuses and sidekicks, why should they have a wage?
You are afraid to name what human labor you regard as near worthless and so now you want to talk about cars?
Answer the question.
JR
You can not find anyone to employ who is “worth” minimum wage.
In other words, your business can not survive if you had to hire someone at that price.
You have made that decision.
You have every right to make that decision.
However, you, as a business person, have already decided that NOBODY is worth the minimum wage, to you.
I’ll go along with ya on the CEOs there Wise.
But I don’t want to remove the bottom for even what THOSE people make.
I occasionally have partners paulie.
I never could bring myself to pay them less than me to do the same thing I was doing.
And you still have not named the working individuals you consider nearly worthless.
I stated examples clearly JR.
There are many disabled people who are employed partly out of the charitable hearts of their employers.
There are others who have bad employment histories, and the like.
You just got out of jail for embezzlement. Would you like another job in the retail trade? Would you be willing to have an exception made, to the minimum wage laws, as you prove yourself?
You are a recovering drug addict, and you are still in outpatient rehab. If an employer is willing to take a risk on your behalf, should the two of you not have the right to negotiate at any rate that is acceptable to the two of you?
There are plenty of examples, JR.
The bottom line is, you don’t care about anyone but yourself.
You know full well that the minimum wage kills jobs.
You also know that your own relationship, with your employers, pretty much sucks, and that nobody will pay you more than minimum wage these days, if they can help it.
You also know that your competition can not beat your price, if they have to pay their workers minimum wage.
You are a selfish man JR.
It is perfectly OK to look out for your own interests, but quit acting like you are superior, somehow.
You arent.
OK Paul I am interested… I have read upthread, and have seen you asked the same question repeatedly… What JOB do YOU consider to be worth LESS than $2.65 / Hour…. I have also read your many posts where you state almost everything EXCEPT for naming the JOB that YOU consider to be worth LESS than $2.65 / hour… Can you NAME such a job, or not???
In our company which JR calls exploiting the masses we hire gophers off the street with no experience in the trade for $9.50 an hour. After 30 days on the job they qualify for medical and dental insurance paid for by the company. We have fewer than 50 employees and are not required to do this but want to retain good employees so we treat them right.
This minimum wagers aren’t in any profession but wait staff that I can recognize. While the McDonalds and Walmarts are lampooned they are the ideal job for students. With 2 week notice they will work around your sport schedule to let you still participate. My son worked at McDonalds in highschool and lettered in three sports his senior year.
You have to look at the whole picture.
“More to the point: some jobs are not worth minumum wage! ”
You have been very vague in defending this paulie. Attacking me is not a defense of your own post.
BTW, the last I looked in the IRS manual, TIPS are not considered to be part of “hourly wage”
Well I don’t think you are of a mind to help paulie tell us is near to worthless in their labor ksgrm. YOU seem to get it.
There HAS to be a bottom. Otherwise you leave people like paul in charge of determining it.
By the way we have hired many community corrections participants. Some worked out to be valuable some not so. Our oldest employee has been with us over 20 years and was on house arrest when we hired him. He was allowed to come to work and go home. Had no vehicle so a company vehicle picked him and and delivered him back home.
That was for you JR.
Chas
It is a stupid question.
It does not deserve an answer.
Some PEOPLE are not worth $2.65 an hour because they have not proven than they can do a good job, and they might never be able to do so.
Furthermore, some companies would be willing to hire a mentally disabled person, and pay health insurance on that person, as the major expense they would pay.
Obviously, such benefits would increase the figure substantially over $2.65.
And, dont forget FICA taxes, paid by the employer, and unemployment taxes.
Again, dumb question.
Some people are high risk, and they should be able to tell the employer that they are willing to accept a lower starting wage.
—-
Chas
Why, on Earth, does the government need to be in the business of setting wages?
On what other product or commodity or service does the government set the price?
If businesses would NEVER pay more than your “bottom” or floor, we would all be making minimum wage, would we not?
There is no public good in the minimum wage. It is a political tool to reduce the labor pool. It knocks the bottom rungs off of the ladder of success. It does not give anyone a “raise” it just eliminates jobs.
And in paul’s few pitiful attempts at example, he has discussed PEOPLE not labor.
He mentions convicts, or addicts, or disabled people with equal disdain.
But the actual LABOR, the activity that he says is not worth paying someone almost nothing to do?
He doesn’t or can’t go there.
Hey high hat paulie?
I MADE you “God” remember?
You have something you want someone to do to make you money.
But you want to pay them almost nothing to do it.
What is that task you would assign.
You are here to devalue labor so start talking about labor.
JR and Chas
I believe that KSGRM’s post indicates that employers do not need the government to tell them how much to pay their employees.
JR
Those people need jobs too.
YOU treat them with “disdain” not me.
YOU do not want such people to have a chance in life.
Paul, I guess you cant name a job that is worth less than $2.65/hour — A JOB, Paul… NOT a person… FICA is not part of hourly wage… neither is witholding!! Or Health Insurance Benefits… Can you even THINK of a job that pays $2.65 per hour, plus provides Health Insurance Benefits??
The JOB Paul… Not the PERSON… Think JOB Paul… YOU were the one who said it… Now, tell us what JOB you are thinking of??
JR
HIRE someone, hypocrite!
YOU can not afford to pay anyone minimum wage, so you don’t hire anyone.
Do you “devalue labor” when you make a decision that you can not afford to hire any help?
What labor is worth almost nothing to you paulie?
Paul your posts read like the words of the mindless wonder, Neal Bortz… You can do better than that…
I don’t NEED to hire anyone paulie.
But you are the one who is judging the worth of labor not me.
What jobs paulie?
Paul, I think I am correct on this — JR is a self employed “contract” worker… Self Employed ‘contract’ workers dont HIRE people… unless their ‘contract’ is in HR
$2.65 an hour.
That’s about 4 and a half cents a minute.
What labor is there that is worth less than 4 and a half cents for a minute?
What labor do you have someone do for 10 minutes and pay them 40 some cents?
Chas
You have a habit of bring up details that miss the point.
An employer has COSTS, or things that discourage the employer from making any new hires.
The “wage” is a small thing, compared to all the expenses an employer might incur:
wages
FICA taxes
FUTA taxes
Liability for wrongful acts of employee towards other employees or customers
Employee Benefits
Training
The money SPENT by an employer, on behalf of an employee, is much, much more than the hourly wage.
When an employer is asked to hire someone who has a criminal history, or a bad work history, it can be a HUGE liability, or risk for that company to take.
Employer and Employee should be willing to work that out, between the two of them, withour YOUR input.
We all have the right to hire people.
Contract labor can sub-contract.
Still won’t tell us what labor you think is worthless paulie?
JR
And if a business owner is not LOOKING for workers, but someone comes to the door, and BEGS for a job, saying:
“I just got out of jail, I dont have a very good work history, but I will work the night shift at your retail store?”
Should the employer have to say “NO, you are not worth the minimum wage” —
Or, “Well I will start you out at less than the Federal minimum wage, until you are trained and prove that I can trust you.”???
JR
YOUR labor is not worth minimum wage.
I answered your stupid question several times.
Don’t pretend you care about people paulie.
Everybody knows otherwise.
You are either completely dense or willfully evasive.
What LABOR is worth almost nothing to you?
A receptionist at a small business, taking a few incomming calls and a small amount of walk in business.
Great for a student, as you can study your schoolwork, in between phone calls.
Why can’t a business and a college kid work out such a deal?
My opinion is you are not worth a warm bucket of spit paulie.
Now that we have settled that can you try and get back to the subject?
JR and CHAS
YOU BOTH miss the point:
It is not my job to set rates.
It is not YOUR job to set rates.
It is NOT the government’s job to set rates.
The employer and the employee, between them, should be in total control.
You are not telling the employer how much to pay, with your “minimum wage” —
Instead, you are telling employees that they have no right to negotiate, on their own.
You are also saying that they have no right to a job, at all, if they are not worth minimum wage.
Econ101
Posted February 24, 2008 at 2:54 pm | Permalink
We all have the right to hire people.
Contract labor can sub-contract.
====================================
TRUE… if there is a need…. For many of those who are Contract workers, the hiring is not done by the Contract worker, but by the HR Manager where they are Contracted…
Movie theatre workers generally dont make the federal minimum wage.
Most kids dont mind.
They get to see all the movies they want, for free, and the managers usually let them “sneak” a few of their friends in, as well.
Paul, I am getting rather bored watching you side-step the very simple question….
What JOB do you consider to be worth less than $2.65 per hour?? JOB Paul… not PERSON…
You are ranting and you are not going to answer the question as to labor paulie.
In that final pathetic attempt you made, what do we pay our young coed?
10 cents an hour? Maybe a nickel?
There MUST be a bottom and determined floor for the value of labor or ALL labor is devalued. When the value of even the most humble labor is elevated the value of ALL labor rises as well.
You have as long as it takes to tell us what labor you think it is that is virtually worthless paulie.
I don’t think you have the guts.
JR
I think YOU “devalue labor” when you make your “do you want fries with that” wise crack, as you have several times on this Blog, putting down others.
All honest labor is nobel and valuable.
I only reject the idea that government can or should set a price on labor.
“Price is an issue in the absence of value” — In other words, if you have to talk about price, you have not won the value argument, you have not proven your worth.
Once you have proven your worth, your value, you can demand whatever the market will pay.
This is how the world works.
At least, for those who are willing to work.
Chas if I hire a independent contractor to lay carpet for instance, which I have done, he hires his own help and pays them out of the amount we have agreed on. Therefore the contractor and not me are responsible for all of their taxes and benefits.
JR
I devalue noone, at any time.
We do not need the government to tell us what our cars are worth, or our real estate.
We do not need a “floor” placed on any other goods or services.
The “Minimum Wage” is stupid. It “helps” only those who benefit from a restricted labor pool. It punishes minorities, the unskilled, and those who employers might view as a risk to hire.
There is NO public benefit to a “minimum wage” — none at all.
We should concentrate on helping people rise ABOVE the minimum wage.
—-
JR, if the federal government, tomorrow, decided that there would be NO minimum wage, whatsoever, do you really think that very many people would be affected, in any way?
Of course not!
Some people might get hired, that businesses could not afford to hire, previously.
However, those making $20,000.00 and above ($10.00 an hour) would NOT see a pay cut.
Your logic is screwed up.
The minimum wage is a political idea, with stupid results.
It hurts the poor.
The only person devaluing people OR labor here paulie is you.
You never told us what labor it is that is worthless. You’ve given us a few ideas as to some prejudices as to people.
Now? You are going outside reality!
“JR, if the federal government, tomorrow, decided that there would be NO minimum wage, whatsoever, do you really think that very many people would be affected, in any way?”
Oh you bet I do. And unless you are a complete idiot you know it too.
ANYONE in ANY job that was not represented in a negotiated contract would be on the block. It would take awhile to shake out but would lower the WAGES of workers at the expense of the PROFIT of employers.
We see this all the time when companies relocate overseas to exploit slave labor and when SOME contractors and employers exploit illegal immigrants.
Now unless you are ready to tell me what labor is worthless and why, I am done with you.
KsGrm… No Kiddin!! What you have hired is a Carpet Layer… A BUSINESS MAN…. Naturally you wouldnt pay HIS employees!! Geez… The Carpet Layer has his own business… That isnt the kind of independent contractor, obviously, that either I OR JR was talking about
So who are the 17,000 workers getting 2.65/hour?
Not one person has documented (yes a pun) any of these.
This of course doesn’t include tip employees.
For students to go in and demand a wage over what they are worth takes aways the need to show yourself worthy of a raise. This hurts them down the road. When I say we hire off the street we do look at work records whether related to what we are hiring for or not. We look at workers who don’t change jobs all of the time or have poor reasons for leaving one.
Econ101
Posted February 24, 2008 at 3:16 pm | Permalink
JR
I devalue noone, at any time.
We do not need the government to tell us what our cars are worth, or our real estate.
We do not need a “floor” placed on any other goods or services.
===========================================
Ummm Paul — AGAIN — We arent talking about cars, or real estate, or goods or services…
We are talking WAGES here… And not ALL Wages… Just the BOTTOM LINE…. The LEAST amount that can be paid to a person to do a job!!
As you already know, Wages are basically established by the Industry involved… Or Labor Unions, or some such entity… MY “industry” has our Salary Grid… based on many factors… Electricians Unions have their Salary Grid… Aircraft workers have theirs…
Common, Unskilled Labor has one too… it is called the Federal Minimum Wage Laws… And the State Minimum Wage Laws…
You just listed upthread that $20,000 / year is equivalent to $10 / Hour… That is fairly hard to live on (after taxes)…
Have you ANY IDEA how any worker making $2.65 / hour could even BEGIN to make ends meet???
I cant even imagine a JOB worth such a mere pittance —
Now, are you ever going to post here what kind of a JOB is worth LESS than $2.65 per hour??? Please?? Then maybe we can get off of this merry-go-round!!
What KIND of independent contractor were you talking about. By definition an independent is self sufficient, hires his own staff, doesn’t do over a certain percentage of his work for one employer, etc.. What KIND is the one you and JR were thinking about?
Actually, I didnt SAY independent contractor… YOU did… I have been talking about a Contracted Worker… There is a difference… An independent contractor is what you would have hired to lay your carpet…
And, as you rightly aid, you would, of course, not be responsible for paying his employees…
Example:
I am a Contract Worker… I am Self Employed… I do not own a business… I do not hire employees… I do not offer employee benefits…. In fact, I RECEIVE benefits, as part of my Contract… When my contract ends, I move on to another situation… and negotiate a new contract…
IF I understand correctly, JR does something quite similar, as far as Contract Worker is concerned… obviously, in a different industry…
Waitresses are the only workers who make the miserable Kansas minimum-wage of $2.65 an hour. If it wasn’t for tips, they wouldn’t be able to survive. The federal minimum wage should be enforced across the board in EVERY state and should not be discriminantly applied to a particular type of job. It should match whatever the federal minimum wage is. This is a no-brainer!
I agree Barbara… heartily agree…
Charles an independent contractor, a contract worker, any name you want to give them – same person. It simply means they aren’t on your payroll. Please don’t make me lose it with you again today. You are all wet on this one.
Chas
Again you prove that you do not know what you are talking about.
An “independent contractor” must either file a schedule C or incorporate.
Either way, he must OWN the business!
JR is a service worker, not a contract worker. If he does lawn care by contract, then I stand corrected. Most of it is done piece mail by agreement with the yard’s owner. There are business that contract with professional lawn care services when they need large amounts of land taken care of.
Preachers, Ministers are not necessarily contract workers, they are hired in the employ of a particular Parish or other entity. They main sign a contractual agreement on certain things for conditions of employment, but anyone in the U.S. does that that hires on to work.
Contractors are people who do a job for an agency, government or private, to fill a specific function. The DOD hires contractors to cook and prepare meals. The Air Force Hires contractors to do research on weapons systems.
In other words, a very specific task or groups of tasks are contracted out.
We all sign contracts when we become employed, they are usually less formal than contracts like Architects, Engineers or Professionals sign to perform a specific task or tasks.
If you’ve ever seen the paperwork for a Government contract, you will know the true meaning of volume – paper work wise. :)
You are an employee and work for one employer. You have a work contract which covers a specific period. Totally different things.
Econ101,
Don’t Independent Contractors in certain fields (construction, engineering, etc.) have to be licensed by the State of Kansas before they can sign a contract?
…er licensed as Independent Contractors that is…
Chas
Study:
http://www.irs.gov/businesses/small/article/0,,id=99921,00.html
Licensed anything have to be certified by the state in which they reside or by the state in which they work.
If raising the minimum wage will only affect a nebulous group, which Republicans say doesn’t exist, then what harm is done in giving the state a little prestige in not being the State with the lowest min. wage in the country?
They have the weakest of arguemnets.
Phantom
I am an honest man.
I do not like political games.
The minimum wage is nothing but a political game.
Everyone with any common sense knows that if the “minimum wage” is set to high, it will hurt employment, and add to unemployment numbers.
The “minimum wage” is allowed to lag inflation, and not affect very many people, BECAUSE politicians want to have it both ways.
They want to claim they are doing “something” for the poor. However, they keep the “minimum” low enough so that it really does not affect very many people.
What jobs are legal and what jobs are illegal?
That is what the minimum wage says.
If your job can not produce profits, to your employer, of more than enough to cover the wage, plus FICA and benfits and training, then your job is not legal, and you will not have a job.
The MARKET dictates price.
The MARKET dictates value.
Minimum wage laws are artificial and simply make some employment contracts illegal, which simply reduced the number of jobs available.
Those who think they can’t find a decent paying job should go into health care. Even nurse’s aides start out a more than $8 per hour..and it only takes 6 weeks to get certified. There is a huge demand for health care workers.
Nursing is one of the most reccession proof jobs there is because the demand is so high. You can go anywhere and find a job and the pay is good, plus it’s gratifying work once you find the area you like.
Phantom there is much more to this argument than is being said. Many union contracts are geared to the min wage standards. If they go up then the wage rates for some union members go up also. Some businesses unable to sustain a wage expense increase will lay off workers and cut hiring. Sad but true fact of life.
Government will never be the best arbitor for prices or wages. Supply and demand will always regulate these. When the buying potential goes down because business have to lay off workers then the demand goes down resulting in a decrease in the supply of the product. This results in more layoffs, less demand, more lessing of the need for the supply and round and round…
Government does best when it governs.
Who works for min wage in Kansas? WAITRESSES, most of them actually.
Yes, we do need to increase the min wage, I wonder if the Republican who proposed this will lose his office to a broom closet now.
8.50 an hour Mary. Not good pay, especially since I’m driving. I was, however, making 9.75 an hour 7 years ago in the nursing home. Home health needs better pay.
True..my agency pays about $10 an hour to the aides…the nursing homes get by with as little as possible to maximize their profits…but there are better places to work as an aide and make better money. Home health is a big one..flexible hours and better pay. You should finish your nursing degree, otherwise it will always mean living hand to mouth. The health care industry is crying for nurses, and the money is good. The hospital I work for will pay the tuition, if upon graduating, the nurse agrees to work for the hospital for a set number of years…not a bad deal.
I think the home health agencys in Wichita pay better than where you are.
“I am an honest man.
I do not like political games.”
Uh huh.
I’m still waiting. What jobs are worth less than than $2.65 an hour paulie? So much for your honesty.
And games? You’ve been playing one all afternoon.
The very same faux patriots like paulie are so eager to talk about how much they love the country and freedom.
Yet they have so little regard for a fellow American selling his time/freedom to try and make a living. SO little that they regard their honest labor as worthless.
I hope you get a waitress and tell HER what you think paulie. Or the next time you are lost in a store, make sure you tell the employee you ask for help that you think they are overpaid. Wear your damned greed on your sleeve instead of spinning it here.
You’re a paper shuffler paulie. And why I don’t applaud any American jobs outsourced, stuff like what you do is not immune.
Maybe you just figure you’ll start getting your government social security check before it gets to you?
Oh JR, just admit it. The biggest reason you advocate for a higher minimum wage is because you full well realize you don’t come close to being worth the present $2.65/hr. as an employee, and actually should be required to pay the employer just to let you sit around in the way.
James I may think about getting in touch with someone about you.
You’re quick on a keyboard and appear to have ample free time.
Why there must be a job you could do somewhere.
As opposed to living on disablility?
I don’t think you are SO physically disabled that you would not be fit for say data entry or a telephone service job. Your mental disability is more problematic.
Hey paulie?
Click on that pic up top and have a look.
Now, I’m going to ASSUME that Mother and child are legal asian immigrants.
I want you to walk up to them and tell them that her labor is worthless. Then follow that with “Welcome to America”.
Jr’s got himself a sandy vag again, I see.
Some just live to fight and create drama…reminds me of people I know who won’t leave their abusive partner because they’d be too bored with a normal, healthy relationship.
Good night, I’m going to veg out with some TV.
KsGrm — Econ — I will thank you to not attempt to tell me what I am in terms of my employment… I AM self employed… NOT an employee… I do now, and have for 30 years filed my taxes on a Schedule C… I do not reeive a W-2… but a 1099… I do not hire employees… I contract my services… Do you two possibly understand that?? I am NOT an independent contractor… just as I said before… I do hope you can understand that…
And, Econ, I do NOT have a business either!!
Sorry!! Clergy fall into some really strange tax categories… Thats why I dont get “tax preparer’s” to do my taxes…
Rog, I dont think sexual inuendo is appropriate to the subject matter of this thread…
Someone eariler said “Well I work independently so this does not effect me EXCEPT to generally elevate the value of labor.”
One thing an increase in the minimum wage law does, for sure, is to increase the price of labor. It doesn’t change at all its value. That is much harder to do.
By the way, why are there many people earning $15, $20, $25, and more per hour, and are not represented by unions? Do their employers willingly pay them so much more than the minimum wage?
Or is it because labor markets are competitive, and if workers feel they can earn more somewhere else, they make that change?
And that employers, wishing to hire someone with certain skills at $15 per hour, find that no one wants to work for them at that wage, pay decide to pay $20?
Funny how markets work.
JR
As a general rule, Asians are rather conservative and do not expect the government to provide them hand outs or set their wages for them.
Chas
The INTERNAL REVENUE SERVICE calls YOU a “Private Contractor” — take up your gripe with them, not us.
YOU are a “private contractor” under IRS regulations, by what you have told us.
http://www.irs.gov/businesses/small/article/0,,id=99921,00.html
And Chas
Yes, you are correct, Clergy do fall under some interesting rules.
You can do a 403(b) annuity, for instance, also known as a TSA, even if you are a “private contractor” as I believe you are, as long as the source of the income is religious in nature.
Again, I think you are trying hard to come up with exceptions to generally accepted rules.
The general rules of thumb still stand.
Thats What I SAID I am, Paul!!! PRIVATE Contractor… NOT Independent Contractor… NOT a business owner… No Taxpayer ID## NO business junk…. I have a “funded” non-contributory Pension Fund… I pay nothing into, but I will eventually get a BUNCH out of it, if I live long enough!!
If you arent acustomed to working with Clergy Status, please dont try to tell me about what I already know very well…. Ok???
A private contractor and an independant contractor are the SAME thing, the IRS makes no distinction.
Chas
I have had, over the years, I am guessing about 50 members of the Clergy as clients.
I am very well informed on the subject.
The 1099 that you receive as a tax reporting document must come from somewhere.
You are on contract with a religious order to do services for them.
They can not dictate the time and place and manor of all of those services. If they could, that would make you an “employee” not a contractor.
We both say that you are a “contractor”
You claim that there is a difference between an “Independent Contractor” and a
“Private Contractor” — you make a distinction without a difference.
The IRS does not recognize a difference.
And I must apologize for using YOUR term, “private contractor”
To me the terms “private” and “independent” are interchangable.
However, the IRS uses only these terms, if you are paid for services:
Independent Contractors vs. Employees
Before you can determine how to treat payments you make for services, you must first know the business relationship that exists between you and the person performing the services. The person performing the services may be -
An independent contractor
A common-law employee
A statutory employee
A statutory nonemployee
http://www.irs.gov/businesses/small/article/0,,id=99921,00.html
And
That is good that your Church funds your retirement.
My point was only that, as a clergy member receiving 1099 income, you can set up just about any retirement plan you want, in addition to what your Church does for you.
You can establish charitable type or corporate type retirement accounts.
You have the best of both worlds in that regard, that is the only point that I was trying to make.
You gotta love the new format with the names first–makes it so much easier to scroll past Econ’s waste of time.
Loved JR’s comment that if Regular worked at McDonald’s, they’d run out of name tags.
Max comments, “Hank’s rags to riches story is not unique in America.”
Right. Winning the Powerball lottery is not “unique” either, but it’s extremely rare. For starters, I wouldn’t really call Hank “rich,” by any stretch of the imagination, but he did have the wise forsight to marry an M.D.
As for the frequent conjuration of the Horatio Alger BS/fiction, see the reality in this Christian Science Monitor article:
‘Upward mobility’ in real decline, studies charge
By David R. Francis
Many older Americans were raised on Horatio Alger novels, the stories of poor boys using their wits and pluck to rise from rags to riches.
Success stories still happen, of course. Nowadays girls also rise from poverty to prosperity.
But for most of the poor, the United States is no longer the land of opportunity. Economic research in the past decade has found that upward mobility has faded; most of the children of rich parents stay rich and the children of the poor remain poor. “Economists in the past have underestimated the barriers to the children of the poor getting ahead,” says Samuel Bowles, an economist at the Santa Fe Institute.
Actually, it is about two or three times as difficult for children of poor families to rise above their economic circumstances as economists reckoned in the 1970s and 1980s, he adds. “There was a bit of wishful thinking about equality of opportunity.”
Further, the children of rich parents very seldom slide into the bottom half of the income ladder. Most retain at least a major chunk of their inherited wealth.
. . . .
Bhash Mazumder, a Federal Reserve Bank of Chicago economist, calculates that on average fully 60 percent of the income gap between any two people in one generation persists into the next generation.
In the 1980s, studies found that only 20 percent of the income gap persisted. But improvements in econometrics show a gloomier picture – that poverty may well endure over several generations.
“For people to say we are a very mobile society, people will have to confront this evidence,” says Mr. Mazumder
******
So the Horatio Alger myth is alive and well among the reich-wing. There’s just not much evidence for it.
http://www.csmonitor.com/2003/0127/p21s01-coop.html
Maybe it doesn’t bother many others, but isn’t it striking that so many Republicans are PROUD of the fact that Kansas has the lowest minimum wage statute in the nation?
The GOP’ers are damned PROUD that we have the lowest wage levels in the country.
That ought to tell you something…..
And you know what’s really funny?
All these “we don’t need anybody to help US!” tighty-righties probably aren’t going to make as much as Chas because he works for an organization that gives him a decent pension.
Does this object lesson make the reich-wing understand that by working together we can all do better?
Of course not.
“Screw you, hippie. I got mine, and I’m keeping it!”
Never mind that “mine” is a rented single-wide with an American flag for curtains . . .
clarification: “aren’t going to make as much as Chas” in retirement
Note to “It Doesn’t Matter”–
Thanks for the heads-up.
You’re right, you’re post doesn’t.
So, why don’t you liberals get together and pay for JR’s health insurance and provide him a nice retirement?
I bet if you all donated you would have plenty for JR.
By working together, you guys can do better.
“I bet if you all donated you would have plenty for JR.”
We donate all the time – through the Federal government.
I wonder if all the “anti-socialism” right wingers REFUSE their pensions and Social Security checks because 50% of them are paid for by the nasty “LIBERALS.”
Hypocrites.
I see nathan isn’t biding to his daddy’s plan to be nice on the blog.
It looks like you’re scooping dog poop tomorrow marine-boy!
“As a general rule, Asians are rather conservative and do not expect the government to provide them hand outs or set their wages for them.”
They do not have to worry about it. There exists a minimum wage. Arguably it should be higher.
You say here that some labor is worthless. But you never have said which paulie.
I’m guessing like a typical con it reduces to “the labor I aint doing”
Good restaurant story here.
Work for Asian people at your own peril. SOME of them are quite prejudiced and many of them are very greedy.
When I was 16, I worked at a Hawaiian/Chinese restaurant as a bus boy.
The waiters were Asian. The owner felt and TOLD us busboys that he did not want his food touched by whites. We were for cleaning tables only and not to speak to the customers.
Once I ran after a customer who was leaving. He had left his wallet behind on the table. I got bawled out by the owner who said I should have let one of the waiters handle it!
Well anyway, he would work us busboys through the dinner hour from 3:30 til 9. We were not allowed to eat in the meantime. We got minimum wage and whatever the waiters would tip us from their tips. THEN, after he had worked and starved us all evening, we had the opportunity to buy food from him. (The waiters and cooks ate for free). That was on a 30 minute break before closing and dishwashing.
So, he usually made a good bit of what he was paying us back by selling us food!
“I see nathan isn’t biding to his daddy’s plan to be nice on the blog.”
Yeah, Apophis, Nathan would be the FIRST one kicked off the “new and improved no liberals allowed blog.”
Go play on daddy’s blog Nathan.
Sorry, I dropped an “a”………..it should be “abiding”.
I posted early on the threads, right after Hank the taliba-christian, that there will be NO cease-fire.
The reichwing are the true enemies of our great country!
I merely suggested that you liberals chipping in together would give JR health insurance and a good retirement.
I fail to see how my comments were out of line or anywhere close to being rude or vile.
I even quoted CapnAmerica’s line of: By working together you guys can do better.
Someone care to explain to me how suggesting you help JR is not playing nice?
Admit it marine-boy….you are always talking down to JR.
“Does this object lesson make the reich-wing understand that by working together we can all do better?”
————-
Let me guess, Capn, you’re not in sales, are you?
Nathan SECRETLY wants to be J R.
J R has a child, therefore obviously he is a “participant.”
Nathan Price is a cherry boy.
Wow WS Clark!
I guess it would still be too much for me to expect you to see the absolute hypocrisy of how you go right after attacking me when all I did was suggest you liberals help JR?
Bring it on marine-boy………………..you are just ITCHING to go after one of us nasty, atheistic liberals………………….ooooooooooooooh, the urge!
Let go marine-boy, let that KILLER instinct take over!
WS
Kansas does NOT have the lowest wages in the country, only the lowest MINIMUM wage.
Minimum wage laws are stupid and not a real measure of anything.
The government only gets rid of of work, eliminating jobs, by setting a minimum wage.
No government can set a value on labor. It can’t be done. All you can do is eliminate jobs that do not meet your artificial price.
And, all of you liberals, if you have never hired anyone in your life, where do you get off on telling anyone how much to pay, at an hourly rate?
Hasn’t the person who starts a business, and employs even one person, at any wage, done more for society than the person who has never created a single job?
Waiting STILL for you to tell us what jobs are worth almost nothing in compensation paulie?
Ok time!
I call gutless.
Hey Nathan? Your daddy is looking for you.
“Hasn’t the person who starts a business, and employs even one person, at any wage, done more for society than the person who has never created a single job?”
at any wage?
Uh no, they’ve done nothing for society. They HAVE taken the freedom/time of another person to use as their own for profit.
Which jobs are worthless than $2.65 an hour paulie?
Listen to Econ–”Hasn’t the person who starts a business, and employs even one person, at any wage, done more for society than the person who has never created a single job?”
Take for instance, the slave trader. Now THAT was a hellava good job in the early 19th Century.
Or the drug runner. England fought two wars to force China to buy it’s opium–that’s why they call them opium wars.
Thank God for free trade at the barrel of a gun!
Then there’re all the lobbyists and fat-cat government contractors, who work at nothing so much as working government subsidies.
It is not enough to be busy. We must consider what we are busy about.
Henry D. Thoreau
outlander–
Sales?
You mean that parasitic occupation in which you persuade people to buy crap they don’t need at prices they can’t afford?
No.
I’m not into that.
JR
I never said what you claim that I said.
Now, the person who is not hired, at all, is not worth any wage, for the company that declined to hire that person.
Such decisions would not have to be made, as often, by employers, if only we allowed employers and employees to negotiate, on their own, without the government butting in.
Also, you seem to think that you can not improve YOUR business, by hiring anyone.
That is YOUR admission that nobody is worth anything, to you.
By the way, when people go to college, to train for future work, they usually PAY for their own training. Education is generally hard work, and rather than getting paid for that work, you have to pay to DO that work.
When have YOU tried to educate yourself, JR?
You are a bitter man looking for a handout.
You try to play the “sympathy card” or the “Class envy” card all the time.
However, most people in America do not think this is such a bad place, and you just don’t get many takers for your class warfare, “us against them” nonsense.
It would make me very happy to see you succeed in life, JR.
You are a sad case.
Your lot in life will not get better until you correct your outlook, your personality and your attitude.
Even if the Democrats win every election, for the rest of your life, you will still be miserable.
Why?
Because you are NOT trying to build yourself up.
Instead, you are trying to pull everyone you envy down to your level.
I wish you the best, but like the homeless who refuse help, you have the right to refuse the advice of those who understand your plight and want to help.
Your liberal friends want your VOTE JR.
What have THEY done to help you?
NOTHING!
And speaking of sales, has anyone else noticed with the tightening of the economy, how people on commission like floor walkers at Dillard’s or car salesmen at auto-dealers are practically hanging on to your ankles until you buy something.
I feel really sad for them having to do that kind of work in George Bush’s America.
People should work hard, yes. But they shouldn’t be put in situations where they’re desperate and demeaned just for doing their jobs . . .
Every year the legislature has a chance to do what’s right about all the issues. And guess what, they only do what’s gonna benefit them and their buddies by gettin the money ya earn or not lettin ya make enough. Haven’t ya figered it out yet. What, did they educate you too. Wake up, do I have to hold ya hand too?
J R will succeed! And it will be to the standards he sets for himself and on his own terms.
Capn
Get real, for heavens sake.
We are not in an Depression.
IF we are in a recession, it is a very very mild recession, by historical standards.
We had 52 straight months of improving employment figures, prior to jobs growth taking a breather recently.
You are sounding like a partisan hack, spouting nonsense that you can not back up with evidence.
Back to attacking me paulie? It STILL does not explain:
“some jobs are not worth minumum wage!”
I know your opinion of me and anyone that is not you paulie. And you know that I feel the same right back.
But since you want to chip away at the value of labor? TELL us! What jobs are there that are worth less than $2.65 an hour??
Thank you linda. You’re good people.
I must have missed it, but did anyone come up with who was making less than minimum wage besides waiters?
Now, if you include tips, waiters hardley make minimum wage.
That’s funny, Econ.
Because of all the people I know, I’d say JR is the biggest man among them.
He’s the only guy I know personally who gave up a reasonably well-paid job (in aircraft manufacture) and earned his own way in his own way because he refused to be treated like sh!t . . . that is, the way all the other workers are treated routinely.
People like JR scare the hell out of you CONs, doesn’t he.
You want to believe that everybody’s morality can be bought if they’re just put into a bad enough shituation.
JR shows that there are still a few iron-willed Americans who refuse to be beaten into a cog in the machine.
“We had 52 straight months of improving employment figures . . .”
There you go again, Econ.
In the immortal words of Jim Hightower, “Slaves had jobs too.”
Linda
Success would mean a measure of happiness, would it not?
Sorry, he will not be happy until he decides to change.
That is said in all charity.
Any employment counselor would tell JR the same thing: He has to market himself, he has to present someone who will try to improve the company or try to improve a customers lot in life.
Nobody on this Blog gets as mean or as personal as JR.
Nobody could possibly be as ill-tempered, wishing strokes and hardship and bad luck on your POLITICAL “enemies” and be a happy man.
JR has a sick, twisted view of the entire role of politics.
He views the Democrats as a Party that should punish and torment those who have done better than he has done.
He has said so, in so many words, countless times. It is the reason that he favors Hillary over Obama. He sees Hillary as a person who enjoys the “politics of personal destruction” and he is into that.
Truth of it is?
I WISH everybody could work for themself and others as I am trying to.
But the reality IS that most people HAVE to work for someone else.
Don’t we owe them the consideration of at least a MINIMUM of what their labor is worth? Or do we want to leave them at the mercy of bean counters like paulie who will not even SAY what labor it is that is worthless?
And pay no attention to the fact that job growth was five times faster under Clinton than under Bush . . .
Nope paulie my SPECIAL dispensation is reserved for you.
I can find SOMETHING redeeming in any other poster here. ANY of them.
But not you.
You don’t even know what it means to be an American anymore. You’re so busy at bottom lines and hating me that you have forgotten what America USED to be.
WHY would you attack me for wanting to work for myself? Who are you to judge that anyone’s labor is worth nothing?
“People should work hard, yes. But they shouldn’t be put in situations where they’re desperate and demeaned just for doing their jobs . . .” -CapnAmerica
————-
Demeaned like this, Capn?
“You mean that parasitic occupation in which you persuade people to buy crap they don’t need at prices they can’t afford? No.” – CapnAmerica
Playing tennis with yourself again.
iron will?
JR has as much “iron will” as a bumb that wont get out from under the bridge and clean himself up.
Sure, he has done better than the homeless man, but only slightly.
Hey, I fallen flat on my face too, but I got back up again, and I did not blame others for MY mistakes.
JR could have stuck it out, at his job, but he QUIT, by his account.
Now, due to his pride, foolish, selfish pride, he does not have a job, and he wants the rest of us to support him.
Again, anyone can fail.
Failure is an EVENT not a person.
YOU, Capn, are simply an “enabler” — You tell JR that his twisted, hateful false pride is, somehow, to be admired.
How does telling JR that he is just “FINE” improve his lot in life?
He needs to change or he will never be happy.
Politics? That is just the opium of the moment for him.
It will fail him, as he expects far too much from politics, things that no political party can give him.
“Nobody on this Blog gets as mean or as personal as JR.”
I keep it honest paulie? At the risk of bonedigging your past posts? Can you say the same?
Uh, Capn
Take a look at the baby boomers entering their peak earning years.
Take a look at the baby boomers entering their peak spending and investing years.
Presidents have very very little to do with the economy.
However, Bush has done nothing to screw things up.
Clinton did NOTHING at all, to take credit for any economic event.
What policy did Clinton champion, that had anything to do with economics?
Welfare reform? Republicans forced that one on him.
What did Clinton do, exactly?
SO are you now on record against the self employed paulie?
So everyone is supposed to be an employee?
Well that IS pretty much the reality. But this derision for the self employed is new even for you.
Well? What is the bottom of what all those people you insist be employees should expect for compensation their labor paulie?
You still haven’t said.
Oh I’m not the hater here paulie. That would be you. And as usual, I have made you expose yourself and maybe even take a second look at yourself.
Well capn that is more heady praise than maybe I deserve.
I wish I coulda done more for the union. It was in such bad shape when I left. But then like I tried to tell those guys, a union is only as strong as its membership.
I had a pretty significant impact when I left. I understand a long time plant chair was displaced and particularly nasty manager was promoted for my leaving. But I DID leave them. It was down to my health and my kid or the job though.
Now? I try to teach my kid that you can make a living in making and doing for yourself and others without the middle man of management.
Folks like paul don’t like that.
JR
Listen carefully
I AM SELF EMPLOYED.
At least, I have had to file a Schedule C as at least part of my tax return, for well over 20 years.
It is FINE to be self employed, it is something to be proud of.
However, as a business owner, you COULD hire other people, and you have declined to do so.
Again, you pay ZERO in wages and ZERO is less than the minimum wage, is it not?
The government does NOT tell you how much you have to charge, to do a job. You would not like it if they did.
You WANT to come in as “low bid” if you are in a competitive situation.
I support your RIGHT to underbid your competition.
Wage earners deserve the SAME right as you have, in your business, the RIGHT to negotiate on their own.
Divide and conquer eh paulie?
ANY labor that serves an employer should have a right to a minimum compensation at the least.
You STILL have not said what labor is worthless.
More, any labor that is employed for the enrichment of their employer should have the right to bargain collectively.
But not for you paulie. You want an individual all alone and at the mercy of his employer for his minimum compensation.
You’d have been quite happy in feudal Europe or current day China.
“Uh, Capn
Take a look at the baby boomers entering their peak earning years.”
WHAT?
The boomers are just now starting to retire.
If anything, that should be opening up vast new jobs for people to move into.
Bush’s massive wealth transfer to the already rich is tamping down what should be a boom, not a bust business cycle.
and, once again —
I do not hate anyone.
If I decided to hate anyone?
LOL, do not flatter yourelf, JR.
You would be at the bottom of the list.
You frustrate the hell out of me, yes, since you are obviously so self-destructive and stuborn.
However, real people have done real, physical and financial harm to me and to my family —
Sticks and stones, that kind of thing.
Hate is a stupid emotion to carry around with you. Hate only damages the container in which it is held.
I don’t hate anyone.
I have put people in jail, I have put people in the hospital who deserved to go there, I have taken people to court, many times, and won.’
But hate? NO! Hate is doing awful things to people simply out of cruel enjoyment, or — hate is wishing awful things on people, something YOU do frequently.
I admire someone who sticks up for himself or for his family and friends, or even for strangers if he feels an injustice is being done.
I do not see that in you.
I see envy and revenge and hate.
“You do not build up the weak by tearing down the strong” (Presidential quote, look it up)
I want you to get over yourself and try to be happy. Put the Union behind you. The Union left you, from what you have told us. They disagreed with you, and you hated compromise.
“What did Clinton do, exactly?”
Simple. Cut spending and raised taxes, balanced the budget and reduced the national debt.
The markets loved it.
Bush is funnelling so much taxpayer wealth to rich cronies in the form of subisidies and encouraging local economies to outbid each other to pay multinational corps “tribute,” that the middle class and small businesses are totally stressed.
JR
When have I ever said that I do not support “collective bargaining”
You are making an gross assumption, I never, ever said that.
Now, I believe that workers have an absolute right to refuse Union membership. However, if a majority of workers do vote for a union, I have no problem with collective bargaining contract being worked out.
He’s also spending 2 billion a week of taxpayer money to the most inherently inefficient and least productive subsidy imaginable–the war in Iraq.
But, JR
Union labor is a very very small percentage of the work force, these days.
Most people do not want and do not need a labor union.
Times have changed. Yes, organized labor performed a valuable service, in the past. However, many Unions have a hard time justifying their existence, these days.
“I have put people in the hospital who deserved to go there, ”
Would that be gay people in parks put in the hospital (or the river) by your “fighting ability” there paulie? I could go get a post of yours that suggests that.
Sheesh you make this easy. I have the flu and I’m helping you make yourself look bad!
Capn
Demographics drive the economy.
The BOOMERS entered their peak earning and spending and investing years under BILL CLINTON’s term.
People tend to cut back, prior to retirement. They tend to spend a bunch from about age 45 to 50. This is the “pig in the python” and yes, they are about to go on Medicare.
I just signed someone up, a year ago, for a Medicare Supplement who was born on the day Pearl Harbor was bombed. He was not a baby boomer, but they are comming!
So let’s repeal Taft Heartley then paulie!
Let the market and the workers negotiate!
JR
You are showing your hateful side again.
You know full well that I went to the police, when I found out about the gay bashing.
I have protected innocent people all my life.
Your attacks are getting desperate.
—-
No, I put a racist in the hospital, briefly. He deserved it.
And, at least a few shoplifters, after they hit several people first.
I am not bragging.
I am making the point that I did not “hate” people who really tried to do me physical harm.
Why would I “hate” you?
You are no threat to me.
And if you were? Who cares. I have faced much worse.
A few people
JR
I am not the best at spelling, either, but you might want to try and get it right, on TAFT-HARTLY since you bring it up so much:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taft-Hartley_Act
Well put on your cape and fly off then paulie.
Forgive me if I am not sure as to where you actually were in the racism thing. You who posts about “Black areas” and “Black people”
Or you could answer the question I and others have asked you all day.
What labor do you see as virtually worthless?
Hey, Weblog is acting strangely, chopping off some of my comments.
Also, I think it leaves some words out, that I am pretty sure I typed.
Anyone else having trouble?
LOL
JR puts an e were it doesnt belong, I left an e out where it doesnt belong.
Taft Hartley
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taft-Hartley_Act
JR
EVERY political commentator in the country talks about the “Black Vote” and the “Hispanic Vote” it is not racist at all to look at geographic areas and race, where elections are concerned.
Everyone does it.
To me, JR, Obama is your natural candidate. You HATE NAFTA for instance, and Hillary supported NAFTA, at least Obama says so.
Obama pretty much matches YOUR views, except that he doesnt want to put land mines on the Mexican border, like you do.
Anyway, You just attacked Asians, on this thread, and you support Hillary, even though Bill Clinton signed the Defense of Marriage Act and Bill signed NAFTA.
I could say that you don’t support Obama because he is Black.
Only obvious reason out there, huh?
Uh yeah paulie.
I have said that if Obama is the nominee, I would vote Green.
Now I am not sure. But I THINK Cynthia McKinney is the Green candidate? Green party I mean. She is black.
SO how much sense does YOUR charge of racism work?
Work. That is what we were talking about and all day.
What work is it that you say is worthless paulie?
And I oppose Obama because he has said that such as you can be worked with.
I disagree. I think such as you paulie should be blasted from the surface of the Earth.
Will you have and landmines left, to blast the Mexicans after you blast me JR?
You do still want to blast the Mexicans at the border, with land mines, dont you?
Look, I think you are a very hateful person and I am willing to believe that your hate is directed towards Republicans, for irrational and unstable reasons.
Therefore, you do not want to elect Obama, a man who does work with Republicans.
Funny thing, McCain and Hillary BOTH claim to be good friends.
But, that doesnt bother you, huh?
JR, your hatred of Republicans is patholitical, it is dumb and it is sad.
Your hate is so intense that you constantly try to get others to hate me, and the other posters, by making false claims against us.
On this very thread, you said that I did not support collective bargaining. That has never been my view.
On this very thread, you said that I was, somehow, responsible for harming gays. You know full well that I turned such people into the police.
Your hatred justifies everything you say and do, in your mind.
Obama is a better man than you.
I disagree with Obama, but he does not hate his political opponents.
Hate has no place in politics.
Perhaps that is why YOU can not find a “home” politically?
I do not think Barack Obama wants YOUR endorsement paulie!
But I guess I cannot stop your giving it to him.
You are becoming incoherent paulie.
“Will you have and landmines left, to blast the Mexicans after you blast me JR?”
Syntax error? Blame it on the blog?
Yes I did advocate a secure US border and a Mexico held accountable by its citizens instead of letting those poor people be exploited by law evading American employers.
I do this to protect American labor wages and rights.
I have ALSO said that I am ok with total amnesty for the illegals. This will not help Mexico. It will marginalize the immigrants by their language. But it WOULD help protect American workers.
You still have not told us which American workers are worth nothing as to compensation.
I’m gonna bookmark this one paulie. It is not your worst meltdown. Not by far. But you did play this one out longer than any other.
On second thought Hank, this blog may not be worth saving.
Save it for some sequel to Beevis and Butthead perhaps. Save it for some lessons on Special Education in America perhaps. It’s comical for about 2 minutes, then it gets very old.
Maybe it should just whither on the vine and die.
An interesting discussion you have here, folks! I know it is kind of late but I thought I should add my 2 cents worth, especially since there are 2 groups with such a different view on the minimum wage in Kansas.
Is it there to help people, or is it “taking the bottom rungs off the ladder” and keeping people from getting a leg up?
Who are the people who only get Kansas minimum wage, and not the national minimum? Wait people at the local restaurant? Your local newspaper delivery person? The editor of the newspaper in a small town? Outside sales people, not those on the good route jobs but those who try to make a living door to door, or company to company, those people commonly looked down upon and called “solicitors”? Disabled people? Small nonprofit organization employees? Those employees of small agricultural operations? Housekeepers who do not live on the premises? Babysitters? Those people under 18 years of age who work to help support themselves? How about ALL OF THE ABOVE!
The minimum wage, like most other laws, is there to protect people from the unscrupulous business owners who will undercut any competition and rob their own employees in their race to riches. It is the price that our elected officials have set that could be called the absolute minimum compensation for a person who works for their living. The boss defines the job description. The boss defines the working conditions. The boss defines the requirements for a person to work on the job. The boss has the right to replace a worker at any time. The boss defines the benefits. But damnit, the boss has no right to get the labor for free, and the Kansas $2.65 per hour is darn near free!
The thought of those against raising minimum wage seems to be divided into 2 basic ideas. One is that if the minimum wage goes up in Kansas the price of everything will go up. And? The price of everything is going to go up anyway. Your argument does not hold water. After all, are you so cheap that you prefer to shop at a place whose view is so spiteful that they will not even pay a decent wage to those who are depending on them? The second argument is that there are so few people affected by the minimum wage in Kansas that it doesn’t matter. Then what would it matter if the Kansas minimum wage was raised? Why do you argue so vehemently about it if so few are affected. In my view if one person is underpaid and cheated it should be made right. And the figures I have heard range from a low of 17,000 to a high of 22,000.
Ksgrm, I appreciate you. You do more than the “minimum required” for people. You are the sunny side of the human race. Econ101: Is that the class you flunked every time you tried it? How sniveling cheap can you get? You bash unions, say they are not needed, yet uphold people who will barely pay their workers $20.00 for a full day’s work! Haven’t you read 1 Titus 5:18: For the scripture saith, Thou shalt not muzzle the ox that treadeth out the corn. And the labourer is worthy of his reward.? You ARE the reason we need a minimum wage!
The discussion has been about jobs, but lets talk about people and put real faces to this argument. I was in the grocery section of WalMart Saturday, browsing the soup aisle behind an older couple. I would guess they were in their early 60’s. I don’t know where they lived, I don’t know what decisions they had made in life. They had about 10 items in their grocery basket. And they were discussing what they would have to put back so they could buy a LOAF OF BREAD with the money they had! DISCUSSIONS LIKE THIS SHOULD NEVER HAVE TO HAPPEN IN KANSAS! I know we will never eliminate poverty, but we should do everything in our power to minimize it!
“Well before the ownership society had a neat label, its creation was central to the success of the right-wing economic revolution around the world. The idea was simple: if working-class people owned a small piece of the market–a home mortgage, a stock portfolio, a private pension–they would cease to identify as workers and start to see themselves as owners, with the same interests as their bosses. That meant they could vote for politicians promising to improve stock performance rather than job conditions. Class consciousness would be a relic.”
The plan almost worked.
http://www.thenation.com/doc/20080218/klein
So Steven, do you consider yourself a have or a have not?
Thanks for the interesting article, Steven. The devil is always in the details and bushco forgot all about those bothersome details in most everything.
An EXCELLENT read Steven.
From Steven’s link…
“Once again, the shift was psychological. Stock ownership made up a relatively minor part of the average American’s earnings, but in the era of frenetic downsizing and offshoring, this new class of amateur investor had a distinct shift in consciousness. Whenever a new round of layoffs was announced, sending another stock price soaring, many responded not by identifying with those who had lost their jobs, or by protesting the policies that had led to the layoffs, but by calling their brokers with instructions to buy.”
Read the rest of the article.
I’m younger than most posters here. This article shows some of you just what your kids and grandkids are or will be up against. So if you ARE a “have”? Better have enough to make sure your kids are “haves” too. Because we are building a system where hard work is not gonna be enough anymore.
They’ll have to work harder than slaves in China or desperate people fleeing Mexico.
And they’ll have folks like paulthecon over their shoulder ready to declare their labor worthless.
JR,
I saw a study a while back (unfortunately I didn’t save the link) that found that by far the largest factor in being rich was inheritance. If you don’t have a rich daddy, your chances of getting rich are fairly close to nil, no matter how hard you work.
My own experience with rich people is that most of them are damn lucky to be rich- they simply don’t have what it takes to survive being poor!
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