An article in the January issue of GQ magazine reported on the bizarre and illogical world of pathological Hillary Clinton-haters, who despise her for conflicting (and often made-up) reasons. Stanley Fish, a professor of law at Florida International University, recently wrote about the phenomenon in a New York Times blog: “She is vilified for being a feminist and for not being one, for being an extreme leftist and for being a ‘warmongering hawk,’ for being godless and for being ‘frighteningly fundamentalist,’ for being the victim of her husband’s peccadilloes and for enabling them.â€
Fish noted that the mainstream media pundits also have gotten into the act. “If she answers questions aggressively, she is shrill. If she moderates her tone, she’s just play-acting. If she cries, she’s faking. If she doesn’t, she’s too masculine. If she dresses conservatively, she’s dowdy. If she doesn’t, she’s inappropriately provocative.â€
Fish observed: “Compared to this, the Swift Boat campaign against John Kerry was a model of objectivity.â€
292 Comments
This kind of stuff happens when you try and pander to everyone. We get confused and everyone wants what we have been promised. But since she can’t be all things like she acts like (all politicians do it, not just her), she gets this type of article written about her.
Irrationality, the hall mark of Republicans.
There *is* a legitimate criticism of Hillary, though admittedly many criticism are *not* legitimate. That is that she is too computer-like in her speech. Everything sounds like it has been pre-rehearsed and canned, the same problem Dukakis suffered from in 1988.
History shows that, absent extraordinary circumstances like in 1964 and 1976, the country will not vote for a Democrat for President unless the candidate is a real person, with plenty of charisma or personality, whatever you want to call it. Think of FDR, Truman, Kennedy, and Clinton, all were real people with a great ability to connect with the voter.
The people that hate Senator Clinton?
Well, I hate them. Not because they hate her but because of their politics and just who they are.
To me, they are enemies.
The enemy of my enemy is my friend. And no one has had to endure more of their sick evil than Senator Clinton. GO HILLARY!!
Sounds like a “vast right wing conspiracy” to me. Oh..wait..those words have already been used.
Interesting that JR would hate people because of a different political outlook.
Well we see it here, either you like Hillary or you don’t and the reasons vary even among the Democrats.
I think she is a Neo-con from some of what she has said, but then some on both side think she is too liberal too. She is something for all people like Pleeter said.
“Tell a lie often enough, loud enough, and long enough, and people will believe you.” -A. Hitler
Hate? Irrational hate? LOL!!
All you have to do is read half the liberal posts on the WE BLOG for perfect examples of hate!
And who are the current haters of the Hildebeast? Why it’s most of the dems in the country!
Can you feel the love Hank? :D
How about a thread on the lack of love on the right for their OWN candidates?
There was a Romney thread yesterday that was a ghost town. And look at the love the right has for their nominee John McCain!
Their own party and policies such a dismal failure, they’ve nothing to do but lash out.
If they were a better lot of folk, I could almost pity them. Almost.
Have no fear. Hill will keep fewer promises than Bill. Freezing interest rates will not occur but watch them jump in October if she is ahead in the polls.
Yep!
I’m lovin’ it anyway! The democratic primaries are like watching a snake pit!
Now carefully review the recent posts children, which of the enlightened posters here actually consistently admit to their hate here?
The dems are in the process of eating their young!
Right. I hate Hill, Bill and Mccain. Only Bama has not been caught in any serous lies – that I know of!
Many years ago I attended a radio talk show meeting in Los Angeles (I was doing a local educational show at the time). It was interesting to meet some of these guys – especially a couple who were actually paid full-time (by Mellon-Scaife) to dig and distribute dirt on the Clintons. They were proud of how much money they could make doing that.
It is beyond my understanding that a person could “hate” another person because they hold a differing opinion.
We each listen to those who are vying for the position of POTUS and choose the one we wish to support. Ii is a choice we should be happy each person has the freedom to make. I know how happy it makes me to have alternatives!
I really understand how important the choice we make is and that it has an effect on all of us whether our choice won or lost.
But hate? Enemy?
If you really feel someone who holds an opposing position has behaved in an unacceptable way, does it make sense to bring yourself DOWN to their level? Maybe a better choice would be to set yourself apart with better, more exemplary behavior.
Remember when we argued over torture? Some said it’s how other countries do it. The response usually was that doesn’t make it right, America is above that.
So IF one political party does something we abhor, why do we allow ourselves to pattern ourselves after them?
Lindainks…
I gotta agree with you. I am totally dumbfounded by the intensity of the hatred shown by so many people here…based solely on differing opinions. It is not like a poster killed someone else’s dog or had an affair with their spouse. “hatred” for a differing political opinion? Mannnn…what would these people do to someone that actually caused them harm? Scary…
Hank, come on now. I think if you look back, you will find people like regular, econ and a few others who have done nothing but show their hate for Hillary in every post they can. Same for their hatred of anything remotely liberal. Both sides have, are, and will do that. No one is innocent here. But that’s politics, ain’t it.
To claim otherwise is just plain stupid.
Good morning Ben!
Out in LA? Did you happen to run into Pellicano when you were out there?
I just love these little personal anecdotes you bring to the BLOG!
Or maybe Ivan Duda? Or Jerry Parks? Do any of these names sound familiar to the adorers of the Hildebeast?
LOL!!
Goof morning Stumper!
I’ll admit there’s hate on both sides, but I can recall a lot more hate toward Econ 101 than he has demonstrated toward anyone else.
In fact, I don’t really recall anything ‘hateful’ about any of his posts.
Goof = Good!
“she’s inappropriately provocative.”
I’m pretty sure that I haven’t heard that one before!
An Open Letter to Bill and Hillary Clinton:
Worse than you thought & worth remembering – this came from a Democrat.
Dear Mr. Ex-President Clinton:
I recently saw a bumper sticker that said, “Thank me, I voted for
Clinton-Gore.” So, I sat down and reflected on that, and I am
sending my “Thank you” for what you have done, specifically:
1. Thank you for introducing us to Jennifer Flowers,
Paula Jones, Monica Lewinsky, Dolly Kyle Browning, Kathleen
Willey, and Juanita Broderick. Did I leave anyone out?
2. Thank you for teaching my 8 year old about oral sex. I had
really planned to wait until he was a little older to discuss it
with him, but now he knows more about it than I did as a senior in
college.
3. Thank you for showing us that sexual harassment in the work
place (especially the White House) and on the job is OK, and all
you have to know is what the meaning of “is” is. It really is
great to know that certain sexual acts are not sex, and one person
may have sex while the other one does NOT have sex.
4. Thank you for reintroducing the concept of impeachment to a
new generation and demonstrating that the ridiculous plot of the
Movie “Wag the Dog” could be plausible after all.
5. Thanks for making Jimmy Carter look competent, Gerald Ford
look graceful, Richard Nixon look honest, Lyndon Johnson look
truthful, and John Kennedy look moral.
6. Thank you for the 73 House and Senate witnesses who have pled
the 5th Amendment and 17 witnesses who have fled the country to
avoid testifying about Democratic campaign fund raising.
7. Thank you, for the 19 charges, 8 convictions, and 4
imprisonment’s from the Whitewater “mess” and the 55 criminal
charges and 32 criminal convictions (so far) in the other ” Clinton ”
scandals.
8. Thanks also for reducing our military by half, “gutting” much
of our foreign policy, and flying all over the world on
“vacations” carefully disguised as necessary trips.
9. Thank you, also, for “finding” millions of dollars (I really
didn’t need it in the first place, and I can’t think of a more
deserving group of recipients for my hard-earned tax dollars) for
all of your globe-trotting. I understand you, the family, and
your cronies have logged in more time aboard Air Force One than
any other administration.
10. Now that you’ve left the White House, thanks for the 140
Pardons of convicted felons and indicted felons-in-exile. We will
love to have them rejoin society. (Not to mention the scores you
pardoned while Governor of Arkansas).
11. Thanks also for removing the White House silverware. I’m sure
that Laura Bush didn’t like the pattern anyway. Also, enjoy the
housewarming gifts you’ve received from your “friends.”
12. Thanks to you and your staff in the West Wing of the White
House for vandalizing and destroying government property on the
way out. I also appreciate removing all of that excess weight
(China, silverware, linen, towels, ash trays, soap, pens, magnetic
compass, flight manuals, etc.) out of Air Force One. The weight
savings means burning less fuel, thus less tax dollars spent on
jet fuel! Thank you!
13. And finally, please ensure that Hillary enjoys the $8 million
dollar advance for her “tell-all” book and you, Bill, the $10
million advance for your memoirs. Who says crime doesn’t pay!
14. The last and most important point – thank you for forcing
Israel to let Mohammed Atta go free. Terrorist pilot, Mohammed
Atta blew up a bus in Israel in 1986. The Israelis captured, tried
and imprisoned him. As part of the Oslo agreement with the
Palestinians in 1993, Israel had to agree to release so-called
“political prisoners”. However, the Israelis would not release
any with blood on their hands. The American President at the time,
Bill Clinton, and his Secretary of State, Warren Christopher ,
“insisted” that all prisoners be released. Thus, Mohamm ed Atta
was freed and eventually thanked the US by flying an airplane into
Tower One of the World Trade Center. This was reported by many of
the American TV ! networks at the time that the terrorists were
first identified. It was censored in the US from all later
reports. Why shouldn’t Americans know the real truth?
What a guy!!
If you agree that the American public must be made aware of
these facts, pass this on. God bless America and THANK YOU (once
again) for spending my taxes so wisely and frugally.
SINCERELY,
An American Citizen
P.S. Please pass along a special thank you to Al Gore for
“inventing” The Internet without which I’d not be able to send this
wonderful, factual e-mail.
AND THE REST OF THE STORY
Hillary Rodham Clinton, as a New York U.S. Senator, now comes under
the “Congressional Retirement and Staffing Plan,” which means that
even if she never gets re-elected, she STILL receives her
Congressional salary until she dies.
(Would it not be nice if all Americans were pension eligible after
only 4 years?)
If Bill outlives her, he then inherits HER salary until HE dies.
He is already getting his Presidential salary until he dies. If
Hillary outlives Bill, she also gets HIS salary until she
dies. Guess who pays for that?
WE DO!
Its common knowledge that in order for her to establish NY
residency, they purchased a million dollar-plus house in upscale
Chappaqua, New York. Makes sense. They are entitled to Secret
Service protection for life. Still makes sense.
Here is where it becomes interesting. Their mortgage payments
hover at around $10,000 per month. BUT, an extra residence HAD to
be built within the acreage to house the Secret Service agents.
The Clinton’s charge the Federal government $10,000 monthly rent
for the use of that extra residence, which is just about equal to
their mortgage payment. This means that we, the taxpayers, are
paying the Clinton’s salary, mortgage, transportation, safety and
security, as well as the salaries for their 12-man staff — and,
this is all perfectly legal!
When she runs for President, will you vote for her?
I am totally offended by this – by all of it. The persons who ‘hate’ and feel it necessary to justify their hate. By the need we have as a society to keep Hillary down for no better reason than the fact that she’s a woman. By the people who can’t find anything honest to say and therefore spew vitrolic and hate and try to make us believe that it is the truth, as if we aren’t smart enough to figure things out on our own.
Hillary, like all candidates should be judged by what she says and what she says only and yet every nuance is constantly inspected for ‘hidden’ meanings. Fine, it that is how things are done then the rule should apply to everyone, not just Hillary. McCain smiled the other night during the debate when an African American asked a question so that must mean he was secretly being condescending towards them; Obama has white grandpartents so he must really be trying to cash in on that, huh?
It can go on and on; we can analyze everything to the nth degree and see whatever we want. But what makes us adults, Americans who pride ourselves on embracing freedom and the political process has to be our willingness to judge using our own intelligence and decimination of information; not being spoon fed whatever someone else wants us to believe they see in a candidate.
Not sure why Hillary gets the right so riled up, and even some democrats. I caucused for Obama, but if Hillary gets the nomination, I will be happy to vote for her, and I will know that she is going to be a wonderful president.
Hating someone who would take money that I have earned and give it someone who hasn’t and won’t earn their own money is a given.
I do not hate Bill, Hill or McCain for their stupid policies nor for their gender, immorality or unfulfilled promises.
I just hate all liars and they have all been caught many times.
Why doesn’t the Eagle just come out and say they’re endorsing Clinton over Obama?
Todd — Ummm because they havent endorsed anybody yet… That would be a good start!! LOL
Inappropriately provocative — You mean you all dont remember the Rush Flaming tirade because of Hillary’s alleged “cleavage” What a bunch of garbage that was…
And that so-called “letter” upthread?? Snopes debunked that one months ago!!
http://www.snopes.com
And, of course, Hank has no animosity toward Hillary Clinton.
Do any of these names sound familiar to the adorers of the Hildebeast?
LOL back at ya, Hank. :)
Todd, you must be joking.
Several of the WE editorial writers seem to be charter members of the obama cult of personality.
Hmmmmm…. and all of the cultists seem to be white guys. Rhonda remains the most objective on the issue. I could be wrong, but I havent seen her write any pro obama threads.
Unlike randy and phillip. Especially randy.
Dude? Where’s my favorite WE writer gone? :)
Thank you Steven and JR for bucking the trend. And I notice you both have very different reasons for supporting Hillary. As do Pmom and Linda and I. Hardly cult like behavior.
Editorial
Divided They Run
Published: February 6, 2008
…Having run on the idea of broad participation across society’s divisions, Mr. Obama’s campaign often seems to teeter on becoming a cult of personality — a feeling that the candidate and those around him do nothing to dispel. In an interview with ABC’s “Good Morning America,” on Monday, Mr. Obama’s wife, Michelle, was asked if she would work to support Mrs. Clinton if she won. “I’d have to think about that,” she replied.
Mrs. Obama quickly got back on her talking points, stressing party unity. But her unguarded answer was similar to what we heard from Obama supporters in e-mail messages that we received after endorsing Mrs. Clinton. Many of those readers said they would not bother to vote if Mr. Obama lost the nomination. That is not the way democracy is supposed to work….
More: http://www.nytimes.com/2008/02/06/opinion/06wed1.html?b…
I am sick of those who hate Hillary. Really downright sick of it. There IS no good reason, the Clintons are politicians just like anyone else, no better, no worse. Anything that they have been accused of they have come through unscathed, if not better for it. All the investigations and money to dishonor them hasn’t come to fruition like the Right thought it would, and they can’t stand that. I so hope she wins. I really do, if anything just to show them. To show them that all the vile hateful things they throw at her won’t stick.
Yes, we fight in the democratic party, but at the end of the day, WE are going to be united. And we won’t be united under the impression that we ALL have to agree. The republican party is imploding, and you hear the pundits talk about it- well they’re right.
- toots single note on harmonica –
There’s nowhere in the world that I would rather be
Than with you my love
And there’s nothing in the world that I would rather see
Than your smile my love
For united we stand
Divided we fall
And if our backs should ever be against the wall
We’ll be together, together, you and I
For united we stand
Divided we fall
And if our backs should ever be against the wall
We’ll be together, together, you and I
And if the world about you falls apart my love
Then I’ll still be here
And if the going gets too hard along the way
Just you call, I’ll hear
Not a cult. Nuh-uh. Definitely not:
Obama basic training
Volunteers told to share personal conversion stories with voters – not policy views.
By John Hill
In a storefront on Q Street in Sacramento, Kim Mack told a crowd that spilled out onto the sidewalk how she came to back Barack Obama. With a son serving in the Iraq war, which she opposed, Mack was looking for a like-minded presidential candidate. She was impressed by the Illinois senator’s books. But the clincher came on March 17, when she met the Democratic contender face to face. She describes how he lit up the room with his wide smile, shook her hand and thanked her for volunteering.
“He looked at me, and the look in his eyes was worth 1,000 words,” said Mack, now a regional field organizer. Obama hugged her and whispered something in her ear – she was so thrilled she doesn’t remember what it was.
Then Mack brought home the point of her story for the crowd of 100 or so eager volunteers, sipping coffee and watching a PowerPoint presentation in the Obama campaign office on a recent Saturday.
“Did that make more impact on you than if I had talked about his health care plan or his stance on the environment?” she asked.
On the verge of a hectic few weeks leading to Super Tuesday, the crucial Feb. 5 multistate primary including California’s, Mack wanted to drill home one of the campaign’s key strategies: telling potential voters personal stories of political conversion. She urged volunteers to hone their own stories of how they came to Obama – something they could compress into 30 seconds on the phone.
“Work on that, refine that, say it in the mirror,” she said. “Get it down.”…
More: http://www.sacbee.com/111/story/649427.html
“Pellicano”? Who is that?
I did stop by and visit UCLA and CalTech while I was there.
Thursday, Feb. 07, 2008
Inspiration vs. Substance
By Joe Klein
“We are the ones we’ve been waiting for,” Barack Obama said in yet another memorable election-night speech on Super-Confusing Tuesday. “We are the change that we seek.” Waiting to hear what Obama has to say — win, lose or tie — has become the most anticipated event of any given primary night. The man’s use of pronouns (never I), of inspirational language and of poetic meter — “WE are the CHANGE that we SEEK” — is unprecedented in recent memory. Yes, Ronald Reagan could give great set-piece speeches on grand occasions, and so could John F. Kennedy, but Obama’s ability to toss one off, different each week, is simply breathtaking. His New Hampshire concession speech, with the refrain “Yes, We Can,” was turned into a brilliant music video featuring an array of young, hip, talented and beautiful celebrities. The video, stark in black-and-white, raised an existential question for Democrats: How can you not be moved by this? How can you vote against the future?
And yet there was something just a wee bit creepy about the mass messianism — “We are the ones we’ve been waiting for” — of the Super Tuesday speech and the recent turn of the Obama campaign. “This time can be different because this campaign for the presidency of the United States of America is different. It’s different not because of me. It’s different because of you.” That is not just maddeningly vague but also disingenuous: the campaign is entirely about Obama and his ability to inspire. Rather than focusing on any specific issue or cause — other than an amorphous desire for change — the message is becoming dangerously self-referential. The Obama campaign all too often is about how wonderful the Obama campaign is.
That is not unprecedented. It has echoes of Howard Dean’s 2004 primary effort, although in Dean’s case the propellant was neither substance nor the candidate’s early, courageous voice against the war. But Dean soon found that wasn’t enough. In June 2003 he told me he needed to broaden his movement, reach out past the young and the academic and find a greater array of issues that could inspire working people. He never quite found that second act, and his campaign became about process, not substance: the hundreds of thousands of supporters signing up on the Internet, the millions of dollars raised. He lost track of the rest of the world; his campaign was about … his campaign. Obama would never be so tone-deaf, but he is facing a similar ceiling, a similar inability to speak to the working people of the Democratic Party (at least, those who are not African American) or find an issue, a specific issue, that distinguishes him from his opponent. And his opponent, Hillary Clinton, has proved herself tough, specific and reliable — qualities that become increasingly important as the economy teeters and as worries about the future gather in the land….
Obama’s strength is inspiration, and it’s also his weakness. In the recent past, Democrats have favored candidates who offer meaty, detailed policy prescriptions — usually to the party’s detriment — and that is not Obama’s game. After his Iowa victory, his stump speech had become a soufflé untroubled by much substance of any sort. He has rectified that, to some extent. He now spends some time talking about the laments of average Americans he has met along the way; then he dives into a litany of solutions he has proposed to address the laments. But those are not nearly so convincing as Clinton’s versions of the same…
More: http://www.time.com/time/printout/0,8816,1710721,00.htm…
Hey Chas, thanks for the snopes reminder – totally forgotten about it.
Interesting. What is obama afraid of?
“CNN had hoped to hold two presidential debates in Ohio at the end of February. But Obama may have thwarted those plans Wednesday when he said, “I don’t think anybody is clamoring for more debates.” He said he would prefer “to spend time with voters.”
http://blog.cleveland.com/openers/2008/02/ohio_gets_a_v…
kfg, from my limited perspective, Sen. Obama does not do particularly well in debates. I’m told he’s improving, but Sen. Clinton appears to do better with the debate format.
Sen. Obama’s strength, at this point, is his appeal on a personal basis. Thus, why debate in a sterile environment, rather than making speeches that make the audience feel good, and want to support him?
FWIW, that’s my take.
It gives me great satisfaction to know that all negatives of Hillary are known. They will be repeated, defended, repeated, defended… But there is nothing new to find, and everything they’ve got is defensible.
After she is elected she will have the opportunity to make new negatives.
Not until bushco did I have any understanding of Hillary haters. bushco have taught me to feel that emotion.
Yep!
I’m lovin’ it anyway! The democratic primaries are like watching a snake pit!
You avoided the rattler for one more Sunday, Hank?
Funny way to defend Senator Clinton.
Call all who oppose her “haters”.
Now, do you have a list of reasons why anyone should vote for her? Specifically, please tell me where she stands on the issues. Please answer yes or no.
1. Will Clinton promise to balance the Federal budget?
2. Will Clinton push through the largest tax increase in the history of the USA?
3. Will Clinton pull US troops out of Iraq on or before 12/31/2009?
4. Will Clinton provide any details on her HillaryCare plan before the election, to include a)Details of what is Covered and what is Excluded, b)Details on Premium Costs, c)Details on the annual cost to the Federal Government?
5. Will Clinton sign legislation that will effectively ban handguns and all semi-automatic shotguns and rifles?
6. Will Clinton solve the Social Security/Medicare fiscal crisis?
Answers:
1. Will Clinton promise to balance the Federal budget?
No.
2. Will Clinton push through the largest tax increase in the history of the USA?
Yes.
3. Will Clinton pull US troops out of Iraq on or before 12/31/2009?
No.
4. Will Clinton provide any details on her HillaryCare plan before the election, to include a)Details of what is Covered and what is Excluded, b)Details on Premium Costs, c)Details on the annual cost to the Federal Government?
No.
5. Will Clinton sign legislation that will effectively ban handguns and all semi-automatic shotguns and rifles?
Yes.
6. Will Clinton solve the Social Security/Medicare fiscal crisis?
No.
Agreed VT. And additionally, in debates, obama has to talk about issues, not just spread a little personality around.
In personal appearances, he can gloss over his inexperience with the issues with his blazing personality.
Sounds like GW, no?
heheheheheh!
Pmom I don’t hate Hillary. I do however have serious problems with the outlandish promises she makes.
She promised us the price of oil will drop the day she becomes prez. She promised us to freeze interest rates for 5 years. She tried to promise to give each baby several thousand dollars the day they are born for their college fund. Public opinion made her back off this one. She tried to promise to give us all $1000 per year to put in our retirement funds. Same public opinion torpedoed this one. She is promising us universal healthcare with no plan on how to pay for it.
This is why I don’t want to elect Hillary prez. It has nothing to do with hate. An informed electorate will keep her out.
Max, you hater.
Obama has no further need to debate Hillary. She’s out of money.
She now wants a weekly debate. . .free exposure. Obama has a lot of money, if he stays off the stage with her he can fire and she can’t fire back.
If you Hillary supporters love her, really love her, send money!
The Chinese kitchen workers have maxed out!
I wonder how many five star Hotels , her “Royal Thighness” stayed at to chew up all those campaign funds?
I know Regular. Full of hate.
Only Obama can give us Hope.
Thanks, Max, for making the point it takes a Democrat to get us out of the mess a Republican put us in????
Geez, hank and max dont like Hillary?
I’m shocked. SHOCKED I say!
The fact that these wingnuts WANT Obama as the nominee ought to tell democrats something.
They fear her.
And apparantly they fear her thighs as well?
BOO!
Typical sexists. Her appearance is the easy cheap shot.
It screams volumes to me. ;-) Sounds good too!
“If you Hillary supporters love her, really love her, send money!”
I am. Today.
On his quickly cancelled TV show,Rush Limbaugh did a story on the Clinton family dog and ran a picture of 12 year old Chelsea Clinton.
The hate and fear of Senator Clinton among people of despicable character goes WAY back.
I say there must be a reason for that.
:) at Linda!
And AGAIN it is telling that all the cons are bagging on Senator Clinton instead of happily shilling their own slate of loser candidates.
It seems the only person the cons are FOR is Barack Obama. I say there’s a reason for that too.
Good for you JR! Even if the big money is going to Obama, Clinton still raised three million in three days.
Wonder how much the Kennedys gave Obama?
Send her money farmlady. BLOGing for Hillary ain’t going to cut it!
And let us review, shall we? I have said that I fear Obama as a candidate. I’m sure we can beat Hillary.
A lot of Obama’s attraction is that he’s not Hillary. Those votes can easily go the the republican candidate if Hillary beats Obama. If Obama beats Hillary, they’ll stay with pretty boy.
Interesting priorities you have in your life J R. Can’t afford to insure your kid but you can send money to Hillary!
Let’s all say a little prayer for Hillary’s success, J R’s ability to insure his kid depends on it.
Yes making fun of people who have less than you is very demonstrative of your lack of character Mr. Price.
I am sure Barack Obama appreciates your endorsement here.
I am hardly alone in my inability to afford health insurance. And you and your party are on record as opposing even rudimentary health care for anyone.
“Suffer the little children!”
Sell it Hank. While you’re selling Obama.
Also, J R, in the spirit of accuracy (I know you don’t want to be known as a liar!) Rush’s TV show wasn’t canceled. It was a syndicated show, like his radio show is now. He tired of it and he quit.
I’m not making fun of you J R. Just observing a fact.
Your priorities in life have politics over family.
I think it’s actually more than a little sad.
The 10 dollars I will send Senator Clinton would not do much toward buying insurance Hank.
What is it you told us of your wife’s money you blow on hobbies every year? Something like a hundred thousand dollars?
Hey John McCain or Mike Huckabee could use your help!
Willard Romney might hire you as help.
They HATE her!
They FEAR her!
They are Neo-cons!
They are Ugly!
They are Mean!
Defend your candidate by calling her opposition a (Insert Name Here).
Whatsa matter, can’t answer 6 questions about Clinton’s positions on the issues facing America?
Goa ask your OWN candidates “Max”.
I’m curious Max where you got your answers?
As Barack says: “We will remember that there is something happening in America. That we are not as divided as our politics suggests. That we are one people, that we are one nation. That together, we will begin the next great chapter in the American story.”
http://my.barackobama.com/page/community/blog/cksopher
Sorta sounds like: “ together, we will build a bridge to the 21st Century!”
No, it might not J R, what else could your son do with $10? I guess not anything more important than Hillary’s election run.
So, if Obama beats her, are you going to vote for McCain?
“Nothing in this country worthwhile has ever happened except somebody, somewhere decided to hope,” Mr. Obama said.
http://www.nationalpost.com/story.html?id=253261
Sorta sounds like:
“Nothing in this country worthwhile has ever happened except somebody, somewhere decided to PRAY,”
“Nothing in this country worthwhile has ever happened except somebody, somewhere decided to THINK,”
“Nothing in this country worthwhile has ever happened except somebody, somewhere decided to WORK,”
Hopesprings, I know Hillary Clinton.
Study her at: http://www.ontheissues.org
Lest you forget Max, if Hillary doesn’t come get your guns, McCain will. That would be why a vote for either works for me. :)
This is I think the first election in my life time, where a loss for me would not be a terrible thing. I could live with it.
I don’t hate her. I just think she’d make a lousey president so she’ll never get my vote. She’s absolutely corrct, she’s got a million ideas and I can’t afford them.
I don’t take all of McCain’s “war talk” seriously. He has to find some way to pander to the fleetwood section of the Republic’s base.
Hank, the cons don’t slam Hillary? Read Max, Econ and regulars posts.
I am so glad I don’t have to think anymore now that Max can read minds. Gee, live is so good now. Hey Max, ya think the bottoms going to drop out of the stock market, and what stocks should I stock up on? And while you’re at it, could you please post this Saturdays winning lotto numbers so I can retire?
O, ya, Max, did bush really drink himself stupid in his youth? Hey, just asking. It sure seems like he did, as the after effects are still going strong.
Now, Hank, that’s the way to show hate, ain’t it?
Well Stumper, since you know it all, how do you think Clinton would answer those 6 questions?
And Davis, McCain was only rated “C” by the NRA. Clinton earned an “F-”.
From Merriam-Webster online:
HATE:
a: intense hostility and aversion usually deriving from fear, anger, or sense of injury
b: extreme dislike or antipathy
You want to get to know Hillary Clinton? Here’s a starting point:
Madame Hillary: The Dark Road to the White House (2004)
http://www.amazon.com/Madame-Hillary-Dark-White-House/dp/0895260670/re
Well you cons will have even MORE blog time now to thrash on Senator Clinton and shill for Obama.
As opposed to supporting your own candidates?
Breaking CNN WIllard Romney is suspending his campaign.
You want to get to know Hillary Clinton? Here’s a starting point:
Hillary Clinton’s Thesis:
http://www.hillaryclintonquarterly.com/hillaryclintonsthesis.htm
With Hillary Clinton poised to win the Democratic nomination for president, questions about her intellectual and moral education abound. One of the major intellectual influences – perhaps an emotional one was well – was radical social philosopher and activist Saul Alinsky. As this story shows, Alinsky was both the ladder Hillary climbed to gain new perspectives on society – specifically the poor – and then, once there, a ladder she tossed aside when she no longer needed it.
Clinton’s Hero Saul Alinsky:
In his Rules for Radicals, Alinsky outlines his strategy in organizing, writing,
“There’s another reason for working inside the system. Dostoevsky said that taking a new step is what people fear most. Any revolutionary change must be preceded by a passive, affirmative, non-challenging attitude toward change among the mass of our people. They must feel so frustrated, so defeated, so lost, so futureless in the prevailing system that they are willing to let go of the past and change the future. This acceptance is the reformation essential to any revolution. To bring on this reformation requires that the organizer work inside the system, among not only the middle class but the 40 per cent of American families – more than seventy million people – whose income range from $5,000 to $10,000 a year [in 1971]. They cannot be dismissed by labeling them blue collar or hard hat. They will not continue to be relatively passive and slightly challenging. If we fail to communicate with them, if we don’t encourage them to form alliances with us, they will move to the right. Maybe they will anyway, but let’s not let it happen by default..”
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saul_Alinsky
Democrats, please tell me, do you feel so frustrated, so defeated, so lost, so futureless in the prevailing system that you are willing to let go of the past and change the future?
Have you noticed you are being manipulated yet?
Do the words “HOPE” and “CHANGE” make you want to dance on your toes?
a·muse·ment /??myuzm?nt/ [uh-myooz-muhnt]
–noun
1. anything that amuses; pastime; entertainment.
2. the act of amusing.
3. the state of being amused; enjoyment.
Max, this one is for you, since you think LGBT support for Clinton is “hillarious”.
And Clark, with all due respect and affection, as always, you need to read it too.
PS–It’s not all postitive about Clinton.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132×4452810
Max,
Since I personally don’t read minds (especially republicans, as I find them to be empty spaces), I have no idea what Hillary’s proposals will be, should she be elected President. And as for your six questions, I don’t do red herrings.
…and just in case you think there is NO media bias against Hillary…
How many of you know that Hillary won New Mexico?
How many of you know that the recount in NH actually resulted in MORE votes for Clinton than Obama?
A couple of little underreported facts.
I guess with Romney apparently dropping out the right-wing extremists no longer have anyone to like – so they just have to figure out who they hate the most.
Spent a few minutes on Rush’s site last night reading his vitriol about John McCain. It was sort of fun.
And max? PLEASE keep posting about Hillary. You too Hank.
Everytime you do, a little progressive angel gets its wings.
“Do the words “HOPE” and “CHANGE” make you want to dance on your toes?”
After eight years of Bush stomping on the Constitution, you bet. Anything would be better. Hell, just getting rid of Bush and his cronies is enough to make me want to dance.
Here’s some HOPE for you:
Hillary’s Healthcare Plan
(It’s FREE, unless your wages are garnished or your assets are seized)
http://www.hillaryclinton.com/files/pdf/healthcarecosts.pdf
Or how about a free 401k?
How about $5,000 for each new kid?
Steven, I hadn’t thought about it until you posted it so clearly. I could live with any of the potential replacements for bushco.
I will live easier and more peaceful when either Clinton or Obama is POTUS.
It’s been said McCain is more a Goldwater Republican. I can live with that too.
Many Democrats I know are much more fiscally responsible and more determined that government should have a smaller say in our lives than today’s Republican leaders. That would actually describe most people I know, no matter their political leanings.
Today the word “social” seems to have been given an undue amount of emphasis.
I know many people who can maintain high morals without the government demanding and legislating such behavior.
OMG, I am ROLLING on the floor that the mittster is ending his campaign. Heeeeeeeee.
I wonder if the huckster will soon follow?
THEN let’s see those crossover republicans cross over.
And we’ll see if all this mccain trashing ends, or continues.
hee hee heeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee.
Wonder what paulie will do? Vote for mac? Vote for a democrat? Or stay home?
Sucks to be you, no?
“I have a million ideas. The country can’t afford them all.” Hillary Clinton
http://www.boston.com/news/nation/articles/2007/10/11/clinton_vows_to_check_executive_power/
boogy boogy boogy max. The best you can hope for is a C candidate from the nra. heheheheheheheheheheheh
I’m pretty sure the country cant afford a NO IDEAS president anymore.
And I KNOW our children wont be able to afford a deficit president again…
The guy who could TRY and buy the Presidency for his party has decided it’s a bad investment.
THAT’s telling.
C’mon, kfg, Gov. Romney is only “suspending” his campaign. He’s holding onto slim hopes, IMO, that the GOP convention is brokered.
Yep, I know that “suspension” is a nice way to say “I quit, but not right away”.
And, kfg? You and I share the thought that “the country cannot afford a NO IDEAS president anymore”. (Implicit ‘new’ before ideas in my case.)
stumper
Posted February 7, 2008 at 11:32 am | Permalink
Max,
Since I personally don’t read minds (especially republicans, as I find them to be empty spaces), I have no idea what Hillary’s proposals will be, should she be elected President. And as for your six questions, I don’t do red herrings.
—————————————-
Red Herrings?
Those 6 issues are not important to you?
It’s not necessary to know where the next President of the United States stands on those issues?
What are your top issues then?
Huckabee will stay in at least for a while. He has the money and he will want to solidify his lead over Romney. Then he can join forces with McCain.
I have said for some time now that the ticket will be McCain-Huckabee.
Looks like the Republican nominee is decided a whole lot earlier than the Dems. Good. McCain can save his money for the general election, while the Dems burn theirs with broadsides at each other.
McCain’s not the best candidate that we Republicans could put out there, but it is important to keep our eye on the ball and not to be swayed with Obama fever or Hillary um… whatever. There are 6 Supreme Court Justices over 68 years old.
…and now for something completely different…
HEE HEE HEE HEE.
What does Ted Haggerty share with Britany, Lindsay, and Amy Winehouse?
Ted leaves “rehab” early. The comments on this thread are just ROLL on the floor funny. I guess they couldnt cure him of the gay? Maybe he just needs a little “laying on of hands” from Obama’s man Donnie McCloset?
hehehehehehehehheheehheehehhehehehehehehehehehehe.
The real shame? That there even IS a rehab to “cure the gay”.
Wonder if Mcclurkin thinks teddy will be “killing our children” too?
Sad. Sad. Sad.
I guess teddy left rehab because, as Amy says “he aint got the time… and his daddy says he’s fine”
“They’re tryin’ to make me go to rehab but I say no, no, no…
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102×3171213
Ben, you and I agree it will be mac-huck.
And.. god help me… I agree with outlander. I thought about this the other day.
“Good. McCain can save his money for the general election, while the Dems burn theirs with broadsides at each other.”
I guess we know the repubs are not in love with mac. Now we’ll see if they really do fall in line…
HEH. The mittster, in his loser speech, is saying we are in danger of becoming the next France.
Heheheh. Would one of you cons PLEASE update his meme book?
Rush will have to do a 180 and become McCain’s cheerleader, and he’ll never miss a beat. And, the Ditto Heads will continue to spin.
Anyone who would write: “Well, I hate them. Not because they hate her but because of their politics and just who they are.” demonstrates a lack of maturity as well as a serious instability.
Hopefully this person is not armed. That type of mentality leads to mall shootouts and other insanity.
Hating someone because of their political views? This is beyond rational thought.
I don’t think Rush will need to become a cheerleader as long as he has hate and hate-filled listeners, can’t he just continue to, uh, hate?
I wonder what price got Romney to bail on his campaign
The Supremes, as pointed out by Outlander, are where the importance really lies! Those Justices last waaaay longer than any president.
And please remember that the Republican Party seems to be the one who thinks morality needs to be legislated. Their morality. Their intolerance. Their hate.
Let’s all say a little prayer for Hillary’s success, J R’s ability to insure his kid depends on it.
Y’know, Hank, I’m glad you’re such a christian you have such an interest in JR’s kid’s insurance. JR will be waiting for the check (you can beg Nate to pitch in, too) for the kid’s insurance.
In other words, put up or shut up.
concerned taxpayer
you need to get a life… outside of your obvious need to rant about bill clinton endlessly.
What’s interesting to me about Romney quitting, er, suspending his campaign is just last night I saw a Ron Paul advertisement. With all Romney’s money he could not get support, and yet Ron Paul is still going. Sol I’m sure would be proud.
TP, uh, maybe his magic prayer underwear was on the fritz?
“while the Dems burn theirs with broadsides at each other.”
My message to BOTH Obama and Clinton would be the same one we all shared Tuesday night: “Whichever of us wins we got some serious butt to kick come November!”
My take on Ron Paul is that he has always known he can’t win, but brings attention to much that is wrong with the money he has been given. He may be the only true Patriot in this race.
Mitt thought he could win and recognizes he needs to cut his losses now.
Which one could we call good for America? The one who spends the money given him to point out what America should be! Certainly isn’t the one most interested in cutting his losses.
Tim Russert, ol punkin’ head, the god of all things republican, says the mittster is quitting, er, suspending, because he is young enough and wealthy enough to run again and he doesnt want to burn his bridges with the party of saint ronnie ray gun.
Oh, and now tweety says that the speech essentially says about conservatism “I’m the real thing, and mccain aint”.
one two punch from the wingnuts at msnbc
Ya know Linda, your comments about RP also could apply to John Edwards. He’s making sure his issues get some attention, no matter who’s the party nominee. No wonder he isnt endorsing anyone. He could be kingmaker at the convention.
I went back upthread, “Max,” to your magic six questions.
Allow me to address them:
“1. Will Clinton promise to balance the Federal budget?”
Will anyone? After all, George WMD Bush’s policies have tripled the deficit and the National Debt. The ship of state takes a while to turn around. But the last Democrat in the Oval Office balanced the federal budget. Sounds like a good opportunity to me, especially with the Republic Party’s demonstrated willingness to saddle future generations with today’s debt.
“2. Will Clinton push through the largest tax increase in the history of the USA?”
To balance the budget? (See answer to #1.) And will the expiration of George WMD Bush’s tax-cuts for the wealthiest Americans affect the taxes of anyone who earns less that $300,000 a year? Using right-wingnut rhetoric such as “the largest tax increase in history” is simply parroting Rush Limbaugh who, one might note, makes more than $300,000 a year. Do you, Max?
“3. Will Clinton pull US troops out of Iraq on or before 12/31/2009?”
Maybe. Maybe not. And if there’s one Marine standing guard at the front door of the American Embassy in Bagdhad on New Year’s Day 2010, you’ll be the first to attack the sitting Democratic president. On the other hand, John McPain promises another hundred years of war in Iraq.
“4. Will Clinton provide any details on her HillaryCare plan before the election, to include a)Details of what is Covered and what is Excluded, b)Details on Premium Costs, c)Details on the annual cost to the Federal Government?”
What do you want? A personalized itemized statement? The term “HillaryCare” is yet another boilerplate talking point for the Limbaughtomized Masses. But even they don’t know what they’re talking about. Universal healthcare coverage in America is inevitable. How we get there is gonna be a process that evolves. Your question is absurd.
“5. Will Clinton sign legislation that will effectively ban handguns and all semi-automatic shotguns and rifles?”
So you’re asserting that the Congress of the United States of America will pass legislation that will “effectively ban handguns and all semi-automatic shotguns and rifles?” Share with the class just exactly how such legislation would be worded. Do it now, “Max.” Show your work.
If Congress were to come up with that kind of legislation the president would be a damned fool not to sign it. Then Congress could come up with legislation that “effectively bans” mosquitoes and sunburn. Don’t let your paranoid fantasies get in the way of reality, “Max,” unless, of course, that’s all you’ve got.
“6. Will Clinton solve the Social Security/Medicare fiscal crisis?”
The so-called “crisis” is over-hyped and overblown. Social Security is the single most successful public policy in the history of Western Civilization. (You Republic Party synchophants just hate that, don’t you?)
Solving the so-called “Social Security/Medicare fiscal ‘crisis’” would be child’s play were it not for right-wing zealots who hate the fact that Social Security and Medicare (for all ages) are fiscally responsible programs; but not *Republican* or “conservative” programs.
A rational, progressive Congress and President will solve the so-called “crisis,” yes.
It might be called a no-brainer, except we’ve had seven years of a no-brain in the Oval Office.
So maybe it’s a “brainer.” Put someone with a brain in the White House and a lot of the crises created by George WMD Bush will be dealt with.
I agree farmgrrl. And, Edwards knows for sure none of his important issues get any attention unless a Democratic candidate wins.
Glad to see Mitt wasted 40 mil. of his ill gotten gains on his failed bid. Bet he would have loved to of loaded the campaign up with debt from huge loans, and then declared bandruptcy!
Gosh, I wonder, with the mittster out, who JIM DOBSON will vote for?
hee hee hee heeeeeeeeeeee.
Scarbourough is saying that republicans are going to see a storm in November like they’ve never seen before. Then Romney will pick up the pieces like st. ronnie did in 1980.
hehehehehheheehehehheeheheh.
This is just TOO much fun to be legal.
Phantom, too bad most of that ill gotten gain that he wasted went to the freakin’ MSM!
Oh, wow. Now joe is talking about Dobson too. Damn, I hate agreeing with Mr. Dead Intern.
It isnt’ just political beliefs but what they have done to this country! Yes, I loathe them. I loathe that they are wrecking the ecomony, affecting MY home life. I hate that they have sent so many of our citizens to die for a LIE. And you can sugar coat it all you want, that is what happened.
and they still have the AUDACITY to stand here and profess to be right. After all that has happened.
Blows my mind.
?
This is an honest question, absolutely no sarcasm intended, just would like to know — Are the secret ballots for the Kansas Republican Caucus to be held in only two days already printed? If so, they have Romney as a choice. So, if he were to win and his candidacy is only “suspended,” does he add those delegates to his total?
well said moneyhawk.
our country will be stronger when the politicans decide to…
help the poor become educated and wage earners
help the sick be healthy
help the homeless with mental problems
help abused children become safe
help the hungry learn to earn their way
spend to help our country become strong
we give iraq trillions of taxpayer dollars but deny our citizens basics. they teach those with money to feel good about hating those without.
“republicans block rebate checks for seniors and disabled veterans”
is this a great country or what.
I have to apologize, moneyhawk. Just now read your name right. I kept picturing the enforcement arm of the wicked witch of the west’s army. Dang, I wish I could wear my glasses at the ‘puter.
Ok, I DID read it right. I just assumed pizza was smarter than me.
Has it occurred to anyone here that the reason that Bill Clinton was able to balance the Federal budget was because he WAS getting a little head in the Oval Office?
Think about, the only president known to have received oral sex in the office of the president was the only one able to balance the budget in the last 40 years.
There has to be a cause and effect relationship.
If Hillary wins the Presidency in November, the Democrats may have to hire Gene Simmons as a White House intern.
If McCain wins, they’ll have to truck in tanker loads of (We Blog banned word for LD medicine.)
There has to be a cause and effect relationship
LOL, I like your reasoning. I’ve noticed everyone who has ever died drank water. Ban dihydrogen monoxied.
(I still get a giggle outta that site)
the Democrats may have to hire Gene Simmons as a White House intern
Maybe they can kick out the cat and get a dog?
WSClark – you made my whole lunch hour, you really did!
Just doin’ my job, Hope, just doin’ my job.
Ah, c’mon, folks. We all know that Hillary killed Vince Foster with a poisoned FBI file, then dumped his body on an unauthorized flight to Whitewater. :eyeroll:
Very nice post Monkeyhawk.
Are you all reeling? Because I am.
CF, that’s rather like telling us that Frank “The Enforcer” Nitti thinks Al Capone’s activities are perfectly legal, and shouldn’t be investigated.
Appalling? Yes, extremely! But hardly unexpected.
Sigh . . .
Editors: Can we have a lawless criminal fascist administration thread?
Thanks to Democrats like Dianne Feinstein and Chuck Schumer for caving on the Mukasey nomination
.. . .and to Clinton and Obama for missing the vote.
kfg–
The SacBee article is just the gist of the disrespect I got from Obama’s people after Edwards withdrew. At least Melissa Gregory–an adult–had the decency to apologize for their behavior at the caucus, and she is trying to get the answers I seek from Obama…even though she admitted it’s too late–I’m now a delegate for Hillary.
For everyone else, isn’t it interesting that every time I mention that Hillary is one of the smartest people I’ve ever met, the only people who dispute that ALWAYS tend to be high school dropouts?
Let me see if I understand the problem. Agency Doe requests a legal opinion from justice. Justice opines to Agency Doe that A is legal. In reliance on that opinion, Agency Doe proceeds with A.
So do you think that Justice should say “sorry sucker, we weren’t competent when we offered the opinion that you relied on? We are therefore going to investigate you for criminal behavior, even though we told you that A wasn’t illegal?
Just heard a pundit commenting on Hill’s statement that “….. Sen. McCain is a good friend..” the reporter went to say “…she’s also a friend of Tom Delay…” ….. gasp …..
She can’t win —
#
mrcontroversy
Posted February 7, 2008 at 3:56 pm | Permalink
kfg–
The SacBee article is just the gist of the disrespect I got from Obama’s people after Edwards withdrew. At least Melissa Gregory–an adult–had the decency to apologize for their behavior at the caucus, and she is trying to get the answers I seek from Obama…even though she admitted it’s too late–I’m now a delegate for Hillary.
For everyone else, isn’t it interesting that every time I mention that Hillary is one of the smartest people I’ve ever met, the only people who dispute that ALWAYS tend to be high school dropouts?
—————————-
Depends where you hang around to meet “smart people.”
:D
Outlander,
Hell yes they should; it’s called “the rule of law.” And of course, they, too, should be investigated–preferably by Congress.
By your reasoning, outlander, all any governing body would ever have to do is plead ignorance, and they’d escape culpability for having approved policies that were, in fact, contrary to existing statutes.
And of course, outlander, your example–perhaps deliberately?–obscures the larger issue: that the Executive, in the form of the Justice Department, denies that he can be prosecuted for breaking the lw if the Justice Department has told him he isn’t breaking the law.
If President Hillary Clinton asserts this doctrine, outlander, I suspect you will, at such time, protest loudly and forcefully against giving the Executive the power to decide what’s law and what isn’t. Precisely, in fact, in the way you aren’t arguing now, because a Republican sits in the White House.
Rage,
Fair enough, but they haven’t been this naked and honest about it. I think this is a far bigger deal than Super Tuesday. It’s High Noon in the Constitutional Showdown between the Executive and the Rule of Law
Seriously, Outlander. Ever heard of Adolph Eichmann and the Nuremburg Defense? “I was only following orders” is NOT a valid defense.
************************************************
“The Nuremberg Defense is a legal defense that essentially states that the defendant was “only following orders” (”Befehl ist Befehl”) and is therefore not responsible for his crimes. The defense was most famously employed during the Nuremberg Trials, after which it is named.
Before the end of World War II, the Allies suspected such a defense might be employed, and issued the London Charter of the International Military Tribunal, which specifically stated that this was not a valid defense against charges of war crimes.
Thus, under the Nuremberg Principles, “defense of superior orders” is not a defense for war crimes, although it might influence a sentencing authority to lessen the penalty.
“The fact that a person acted pursuant to order of his Government or of a superior does not relieve him from responsibility under international law, provided a moral choice was in fact possible to him.”
The United States military adjusted the Uniform Code of Military Justice after World War II. They included a rule nullifying this defense, essentially stating that American military personnel are allowed to refuse unlawful orders. This defense is still used often, however, reasoning that an unlawful order presents a dilemma from which there is no legal escape. One who refuses an unlawful order will still probably be jailed (and in some countries probably killed and then his superior officer will simply carry out the order for him), and one who accepts one will probably be jailed.[vague]
All US military personnel receive annual training in the Law of Armed Conflict, which delineates lawful and unlawful behaviors during armed conflicts, and is derived from the Geneva Conventions, a subset of international law. This training is designed to ensure that US military personnel are familiar with their military, ethical and legal obligations during wartime.”
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuremberg_Defense
************************************************
Is there anything else this Administration won’t vandalize in order to keep torturing, keep murderer, keep stonewalling, and keep protecting itself?
As for you, outlander, do you still feel comfortable defending this assertion by Bush? If there were ever any doubts about Bush’s fascist tendencies, his assertion through Mukasey of the Nuremburg Defense ought to put them to rest.
outlander, as I understand the context of the Attorney General’s statements today, your hypothetical is an accurate description of the factual situation. Yes, the agency which requested the opinion is and should be entitled to rely thereon in good faith until said opinion is changed, revoked, modified, or until there are changes in the statutes in question which make the prior opinion suspect or court decisions which hold differently from the administrative opinion given.
What is relevant, if the same exist, are any occasions where that opinion was relied upon after any of the changes in circumstances given above occurred. If all acts in reliance upon the opinion given by DOJ occurred prior to any such change of circumstances, then the agency thereon relying should be protected from administrative investigation. You will note that I didn’t say should be immune from court action or Congressional investigation; in a court action, reliance upon such an opinion would be, IMO, a defense.
The underlying issue here for many of us is that the initial opinion was wrong ab initio as a matter of law. It may have been; but, the agency relying thereon or its employees should not be subjected to a DOJ investigation for acts taken in such reliance. While not a true ex post facto law, prohibited by the Constitution, an investigation and prosecution by the agency giving the opinion at the request of another agency seems to violate the spirit of such prohibition.
KsGrrl–
Joe Klein? Oh, PuLEEZ!
Here’s what Rolling Stones’ Matt Taibbi writes–
I was initially confused because my original impression of Joe Klein, from afar, had been that of a gossipy, bourgeois suck-up to the Clinton administration. When I came home in 2002, however, the columns I saw under his name seemed to have been penned by a gossipy, bourgeois suck-up to the Bush administration. I was particularly struck by a piece he wrote in November 2003 ( “It’s time for extreme peacekeeping”, 11/16/03) in which he argued that the Iraq war was not inspiring idealistic, well-educated young people to military service because no snazzy-sounding special “extreme peacekeeper” corps had been created to attract them. Klein noted that young people had been drawn into the military during the Kennedy administration because, in part, of the “panache” of the then-new special forces uniforms:
At a similar moment, in the early 1960s, when the front lines of the cold war had spread from Germany to the Congo and Vietnam, John F. Kennedy announced his support for an augmented counterinsurgency force — and gave those soldiers real panache by allowing them to wear headgear frowned upon by the traditional military: green berets.
Klein went on to say that the “excellent nation-building efforts” of the U.S. in Iraq (at that time, in November of ‘03, Klein was still calling war reports “good news”) could similarly attract a new generation of special soldiers if only Bush would make the same kind of appeal to that class of youth. The new fighting class Klein envisioned was a kind of turbo-charged warrior-yuppie who went to kick ass in Iraq as a professional career move:
Call them Extreme Peacekeepers or the Freedom Corps or whatever, but seek out the sort of people who aren’t normally inclined to join the military — idealistic college students who hope to become doctors, lawyers, politicians or engineers and are eager to do something noble (and burnish their resumes) by serving their country.
******
Klein is one of those seeming-left-of-center pundits who never met a military action they didn’t like.
Maybe that’s why he’s still shilling for a Democrat who also can’t admit she was wrong about the war.
OK CF, that’s what I thought. I don’t agree with you. It’s folly to expect the Justice Dept to investigate the legality of something they had already approved. Can you imagine them trying to prosecute someone in that circumstance?
So that reduced you to claiming that the Justice Dept shouldn’t be able to offer these opinions. If not the Justice Dept, who do you ask about gray area issues?
It would seem to me that if there is a problem, it is not with the Justice Dept.
Taibbi concludes:
I think they’re all full of $h*t — Klein, McCain, Kerry, all of them. But especially Klein. He is the living, breathing incarnation of American “conventional wisdom” — and what American “conventional wisdom” is is a spineless, slavish, power-worshipping watcher of polls who has no problem whatsoever denying today what he said yesterday, and is mostly interested in making sure he still has invitations to the right Beltway parties.
The war, you might have noticed, has not budged very many of these people from their places. Many of them now claim to be against the war. But they’re the same people they were three or four years ago, and they’re still quite openly sneering at the people who really were right all along. They seem to hate us even more, now that we’ve so obviously been proven right.
Which tells us: if they’re going to end this Iraq thing, they’re going to try to do it without admitting either that they were wrong or we were right. And we’ll take that, I guess — but Jesus, it is infuriating.
http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/story/13390771/the_low_post_101_ways_to_lie_about_iraq/4
CF2K,
I don’t think the testimony of the AG asserted the Nuremberg Defense. Rather, the principle involved in such testimony and position is not outside normally accepted legal precepts. The AG did not invoke the “just following orders” defense; rather, he stated he would not investigate acts that were, in the opinion of the Office of Legal Counsel, not unlawful at the time in an opinion apparently requested by the CIA, which opinion was in full force and effect at the time the alleged incidents occurred.
I agree with the DCIA’s testimony that the current statute changed the legal framework of the issue, such that his attorneys and attorneys in DOJ with whom consultation has been had have concluded that there is not certainty of the lawfulness of waterboarding. Thus, it is no longer approved, per his testimony.
Thank you Vaughn for weighing in with your interpretation. I should always put a disclaimer on anything in the legal realm that I comment on.
outlander,
The issue is not the question of whether the Justice Department has investigative jurisdiction over itself; nor is it the question of whether or not the DOJ should or should not be offering advice.
The issue, rather, is whether, if DOJ offers bad legal advice, whether out of malice or out of ignorance, that contravenese existing law, that those who follow that advice receive a legal pass. De facto, this means that those acting on the basis of bad DOJ advice, can plead ignorance and thereby receive a pass.
VT, I respectfully disagree: I think this is precisely the Nuremburg Defense.
Here’s the relevant exchange which
“Rep. Bill Delahunt (D-MA) wanted some clarity during his questioning. Was the attorney general really saying that anyone who acted pursuant to a Justice Department legal opinion was “insulated from criminal liability?”
Mukasey wanted to say it more carefully. “I think what I said was that we could not investigate or prosecute somebody for acting in reliance on a Justice Department opinion.”
But even if that opinion was “inaccurate,” Delahunt wondered, and that behavior really did violate the U.S. criminal code, you’re saying that someone who relied on it would effectively have “immunity from any culpability?”
“Justified reliance,” Mukasey answered, “could not be the subject of a prosecution.” Simple as that. “Immunity connotes culpability,” he added, so it wasn’t immunity, exactly, but the effect was the same.
Delahunt (much like Sen. Joe Biden (D-DE) in the last hearing) proclaimed himself baffled. This was a “new legal doctrine” for him. He’d thought “the law is the law.” What if there was a mistake? he wanted to know. What happened then?
That made no difference, Mukasey said. If a later legal opinion came to a different conclusion about whether something was lawful, the person who relied on the earlier, erroneous interpretation was still protected.
Delahunt, still baffled, wanted to know if there was a “legal precedent” for this view of the Office of Legal Counsel’s power.
Mukasey replied that it was a “practical consideration.”
When Delahunt asked again, Mukasey admitted, “I can’t sit here and cite a case.”
http://tpmmuckraker.talkingpointsmemo.com/2008/02/mukasey_the_law_is_what_the_ju.php
*************************************************
I’m not a lawyer–obviously–so I’m going to put this into terms someone like me can understand.
If the Justice Department approves a policy, say, that demands the neutering of outlander’s stud Dachshund “Adolph,” and Adolph is neutered by the EPA and outlander brings the matter to court, then the neuterer from the EPA can claim to have acted on the basis of an erroneous opinion of an existing law and to be immune from prosecution because he was ignorant of the law.
And in turn, DOJ, when pressed will say, why, there WAS a law on the books forbidding Federal neutering of Dachshunds willy-nilly, but hey, we just interpreted it wrong! Sorry dude!
Substitute “waterboarded” or “illegally wiretapped” for “neutering outlander’s dachshund” and you begin to get a sense of the “get out of jail free” card the “Administration” is issuing itself. If impeachment isn’t on the table now, it never will be.
So if an undercover cop says that its ok to sell him drugs then that absolves the seller from culpability?
Gee the Republicans have really ducked down the rabbit hole haven’t they?
CF2K, I know this is not squarely on point, but justified reliance on an erroneous opinion issued by an IRS employee can and does shield a taxpayer from penalties, etc., including, IIRC, criminal prosecution, even if the IRS employee was just, plain wrong. For all the political posturing by both the AG and Rep. Delahunt, and notwithstanding the statement of Sen. Biden, there is precedent for asserting “justified reliance” in certain legal areas.
Now, I believe the original DOJ opinion upon which reliance was made was wrong. It relied upon strained interpretations of the language of statutes and treaties, IIRC. But, no court has interpreted the same; and while the interpretations were strained in the extreme, I, for one, cannot say with certainty that the same was wrong on its face.
VT – then how about a variant of the Nuremburg defense: “I vas only doing vhat the Furher’s lawyers said I could do!”
“The issue, rather, is whether, if DOJ offers bad legal advice, whether out of malice or out of ignorance, that contravenese existing law, that those who follow that advice receive a legal pass”
——–
Of course. I can’t believe you think that they shouldn’t.
At any rate, the AG is still ducking the issue just like he did in his testimony before the vetting committee.
Ruling whether it was torture in the past by saying that it wasn’t ruled torture in the past . . . how about ruling one way or the other whether it is torture now?
Kinda like the Supreme Court ruling that the Florida votes in 2000 should be recounted but since it took so long for the court system to determine whether they should be recounted, there’s not enough time to recount them.
We can file that in the circular reasoning file. And how do we know that it belongs in the circular reasoning file?
Why . . . because it’s been filed in the circular reasoning file, of course.
Uh, and back to Hillary…
Maybe THIS is why her campaign resonates with women “of a certain age”? A rant from someone else.
“You know the trigger point with me and I suspect boatloads of women like me? Experience. As in, we have it, but it’s all slashed up and mixed in with having kids and supporting a husband’s career and being shoved into crap jobs and discounted for not being real. There’s an tremendous number of us who have been passed over for promotions and forced to pass up opportunities because we were women, because we came to the game too late, because we couldn’t pick up stakes and follow our star because our kids and parents needed us where we were.
But many of us are SMART, dammit, we are EXPERIENCED and we are QUALIFIED — but then as soon as some great opportunity is right in front of us, that we have finally earned the chops to take on — uh oh, we’re too old, it’s time for energy and change, we need some fresh ideas now, sorry.
And if you want to see a middle aged woman jump like a pithed frog, tell her experience, especially a middle aged woman’s set of unconventional experiences that she fought like a dog to pull together don’t count and don’t matter as much as youth and energy…
I’ve lost count of the number of times I’ve been hurt and insulted by the rhetoric coming out of the Obama campaign, aimed at Hillary that ricochets and hits me. Experience doesn’t matter. Unconventional experience is not real experience. If your husband is a dumbass so are you. You’ve f$cked things up so bad only young people can fix them. Your stupid because you watch the Hallmark Channel. You don’t understand the real issues. Your marraige says more about you than your own accomplishments. If you cry you must be weak. If you cry you must be unstable. If you cry you must be putting it on to get attention. If you show emotion you can’t be trusted. Your ambition is unattractive. Your ambition is suspect. you’ve worked hard and accomplished things, but those accomplishments are now irrelevant. All tough women are ball-busters.”
hehehehe. When the HELL hounds of Trego county were after me, an eighty year old woman published a poem in the local paper called:
When they are successful, a man’s a real go getter but a woman is a BITCH!
Go HILLARY
Mr Controvery, it seems you are not the ONLY person getting the run around from the Obama campaign regarding issues. Ya know, they’d rather talk about personal conversion stories than the issues.
Or debate. When Hillary was leading massively, she showed up for every debate. And Obama, now that they are running in a dead heat, likes debates, eh, not so much.
The comments are great.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132×4466717
Well Captain, glad I could raise your blood pressure a little by quoting Joe Klein. If you cant attack the substance, you can always go after the writer.
hee hee hee hee heeeeeee…..
Ken?
When Obama wants to “reach across the aisle” and make friends, he’s the second coming of Christ, but when Hillary says she considers republicans, some of the most HEINOUS ones to be friends…
SHE cant win?
Give me an f’n break!
Ever heard the saying, “you cant have it both ways”?
“Editors: Can we have a lawless criminal fascist administration thread?”
Good one Rage! And CF, I’m outraged too, but I think bush scandal fatigue has set in.
And the MSM would rather worship obama than report more bushco lawlessness.
outlander,
OK. The DOJ tells me that it’s legally permissible to lynch jews and black folks. It isn’t, but I go on to do so anyway. I can’t believe, outlander, that you think they should get a legal pass.
When one “follows orders,” outlander, you seem to think that’s enough due diligence to abrogate one’s moral responsibility.
Dear lefty libs, and you know who you are, why can’t you start your own country, say on an island 250 miles south of Hawaii, you can use a boat called the Minnow, there you can do what you want, have no military, no weapons of mass destruction, then explain how you got wiped out when an enemy island takes over., if you survive.
But… but… but… Kelly, that wouldnt be any FUN that way!! Nobody knew where the Minnow was!! And besides, there were Libs and Cons on Gilligan’s Island too… Or dont you remember Thurston Howell, III (no relation to Herb West, III LOL)
And… and… that Professor was SO stupid, that he could make a radio out of a coconut, but couldnt patch a hole in the boat???
Couple of my questions for hillary.
HOW does she intend to bring back manufacturing jobs to the US? Will it strictly be building wind farms and massive solar panel farms?
If Iran gets nuclear weapons and uses them on Israel, what will be her reaction IF France, Germany, Russia, the (UN) do NOT think she has the authority or right to attack Iran because they attacked an ally? Or by that time will she have already dropped Israel as an ally?
I do hope all of you nut case, hate monger clinton haters, and liars about clintons, have some nice seasonings for the Crow you will be needing to eat in about 9 more months…
When we have a (get this wonderful symbolism) Re-Birth of our great nation, WITHOUT all of the Reich Wing hate filled propaganda!!
“Dear lefty libs, and you know who you are”
And how are them righty cons doing, Kelly?
Not so good, eh?
Attacked the wrong country and spent $2 trillion – bankrupted the freakin’ country?
Yeah, I thought so.
Go back to bed, Kelly, you lost already.
Oh, and when Hillary is duly elected President of the U. S., and you Reich Wing Radicals disagree with her on policy, domestic or foreign, and you make your statements of disagreement… How will you feel if somebody on the Left points a bony finger at YOU and calls you a Traitor, or UnAmerican, or UnPatriotic???
Dont worry, it wont happen I hope) because the Liberals know and understand that dissent IS a patriotic act… NOT treason…
And just maybe we will get back to a point where we can all be able to disagree with a WAR, and still LOVE our troops!!!
“If Iran gets nuclear weapons and uses them on Israel”
The Iranians aren’t all that bright, but they DO know that Israel already has nuc-lee-ar weapons and they would flat blow Iran back into the Stone Age if they should so much as fart in the general direction of Jerusalem.
Sheeeeeeeeeeeeeeesh……………………
What a dumbshit strawman argument.
Gene, Gene…. get off the imaginary Kool aide man… You are doing just what Mark Twain once said: “The greatest problems I worry about, havent happened to me yet.”
Chill Gene… Chill!!
Clark, I agree… BUT, they are gonna keep on comin at us with all of the stupidest WHAT IF’S you have ever seen… Because they have nothing… NOTHING else left!!
Sort of reminds me of Mike Nifong going after the Duke LaCrosse players!! LOL
Nifong had nothing, but he kept saying, we know we had something, even if it was nothing, so we are gonna prosecute them for doing nothing with the something we know we had…
Ya just gotta read the book to get that previous post….
Until Proven Innocent
by Stuart Taylor, Jr. & K.C. Johnson
Thomas Dunne Books, NY, 2007
Catch it on http://www.hppr.org Radio Reader
OR — http://www.radioreader.net
I noticed that no one responded to the jobs question…interesting.
As to the other question, I apologize. You see I have read several books about 1938-1940 and read about the appeasement shown by england. It sounded relevant. Sorry didn’t mean to ask a question that put anyone on the spot. Seemed like a possible scenario, seeing as how Iran has already made the statement that they wanted Israel off the map.
Alright lets leave that for a moment.
Will hillary okay the use of american troops to stop the genocide in the several african nations?
I hope this question isn’t offending anyone, again, seems like a genuine possibility that since hillary is so caring about all of the peoples problems and will make a change and president bush has obviously not done anything so I can only assume that this maybe some of the change that has been so touted.
“seeing as how Iran has already made the statement that they wanted Israel off the map.”
Yeah, that has worked out real well for the Muslim countries – any day now, any day.
“HOW does she intend to bring back manufacturing jobs to the US?”
The same way that Mittens was going to bring all the automotive jobs back to Michigan – he wasn’t going to sleep until they all came back.
That is why he quit the GOP race, he was just too damned tired and worn out.
Oh come on CF. The law is the law. When you have a gray area, you ask the appropriate authority. (BTW, to “lynch jews and black folks” is not a gray area.) I’ll bet that government agencies asking the Justice Dept for a legal opinion is a frequent occurrence in this and past administration, including the Mr. Bill administration. And then they rely on that opinion to formulate action plans.
So then if some handpicked judge somewhere disagrees with a Justice Dept opinion. You think that folks that have done everything in good faith should be subject to prosecution?!!! That’s fair in your mind? Absurd.
“in this and past administration, including the Mr. Bill administration.”
Come on, Outlander, you can’t blame EVERYTHING on Bill Clinton.
wow clark, NO answer at all and yet you would vote for her… again, iteresting
“wow clark, NO answer at all and yet you would vote for her… again”
One, I never voted for her in the first place.
Two, I did answer, you just neoconed your way out of reading it.
Well what do ya think Obama fanatics?
STILL think the cons can be worked with? The party of the most corrupt power grabbing administration in history?
The party where the majority STILL support SOBw?
Obama either gets on message or gets on the ticket second tier or he gets outta the way. We don’t HAVE to negotiate with those people.
J R, even though the Democrats will pick up seats in the House and Senate in November, it certainly is not within the realm of possibility that they can reach a super-majority of sixty in the Senate.
Without such a super-majority, required to cut off debate and put a measure to a vote, the Democrats will HAVE to work with Republicans if ANYTHING is to get done.
I was a Democratic/liberal activist before you were born, J R. I learned long ago that everything is not so black and white that you can just draw a line in the sand and dare the other guy to cross it.
Nothing will get done in Washington – including ending this pathetic War on Iraq – without SOME Republican buy in.
McCain is trying to appeal to the conservative America to the exclusion on the rest of us. He totally and completely dismisses anyone that is not a conservative, in his view. That type of attitude will cost him the election in November.
Democrats need to realize that they cannot just represent HALF of America and hope to govern with any element of effectiveness.
We have just lived through seven of eight years with a president that thought he could govern with just HALF (now down to a third) of the American public. He deliberately and arrogantly dismissed the concerns of the other half of the populous.
See what that has got us?
The country cannot survive another eight years of divisiveness and partisanship.
“I was a Democratic/liberal activist before you were born, J R. ”
And I began my political journey thinking it would be better for the whole Earth to be consumed by nuclear fire rather than allow Soviet Russia to advance an inch.
SO as you see, I have walked far.
I haven’t forgotten where I came from.
You cannot negotiate with the right. THEY do deal in black and white and win and lose.
Upthread, one of them called me crazy or dangerous because I now hate Repbulicans. Well? Right around the same time they were posting that?
Rush Limbaugh was on the radio saying Republicans did not need motivation to fear and loathe liberals. It is in their basic nature.
And how many hear his words and act on them as unquestionable orders?
Let Obama cut his teeth as VP. Our side will take the House and the Senate. President Clinton can set about dealing with the right as tough cop to Baracks nice cop.
“The country cannot survive another eight years of divisiveness and partisanship.”
So losing all we have, we negotiate away some more?
NO.
And just THINK who you are letting Obama lead you to try and work with. You see them posting here everyday.
Oh and in case you missed it WS, there is very little of this country left.
“Let Obama cut his teeth as VP.”
After the Clinton race baiting and accusations of drug dealing, Barack would sooner be dead than a VP for Hillary.
“Our side will take the House and the Senate.”
Our side ALREADY has the House and Senate – see how much we have been able to get done without Republican buy in? Zip, nada, nothing, zilch.
We will NEVER get a buy in from the likes of Paul the Con, Hank, Nathan, McCharmin, Raston, Max and the like, but there are actually a FEW Republicans that think clearly and are concerned for the welfare of the country and not just the welfare of their party.
“there is very little of this country left.”
This is my country, sir, and I will fight with every ounce of my being to protect and defend our future, even if that means gritting my teeth and cutting a deal with a Republican for the good of the country.
I believe in the dream of Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr. – if I didn’t, life would not be worth living.
Your optimism and hopefullness is why I came to your side of politics WS.
I’m glad for it. But now is NOT the time.
As I have said, I KNOW their side of things.
There ARE good folks who vote Republican. But they are not what moves the party. The party moves THEM with this issue or that. For some it is guns, others “pro life”.
They are simple folk and I WISH I knew how to tell them how so wrong they are. I do try.
But the core of the party that moves them? There is nothing redeeming in them. There is no working with them. Try and you end up working for them and being expected to thank them the priviledge.
Our party is about respect for seniority.
Senator Clinton has endured the very WORST the cons could throw at her. Obama’s optimism needs vetting in the real world of politics.
I’d put it to you this way.
Is there even ONE con blogger here you would let sit at the table in the stead of kfg or Steven or me?
You are letting your good nature get in the way of your good judgment.
Yes WS lets think about this for a minute. The Republicans lost control (majority) of the House and the Senate. They’re about to lose the White House. And yet they STILL WILL NOT work with the Democrats. And you think that Obama is gonna change that and make HIM the exhalted one?
You are out of your damn mind.
I think you’re looking for excuses.
Just like Romney said today, he’d rather lose the presidency than to let Hillary or Obama have it and “LET THE TERRORISTS WIN”
“This is my country, sir, ”
Yeah well it is mine too. And my son’s.
You are older than me. And most of Obama’s supporters are younger than me.
Forgive, but my take is you don’t have a full grip on just how far this country is already gone.
And YOU and Obama want to give MORE ground.
“You are letting your good nature get in the way of your good judgment.”
Wrong, I am very well known for my bad nature, inclination to fight often and dirty and my lack of tolerance for right wing yahoos. I am simultaneously profane, profound, self-righteous, self-depreciating, opinionated, outspoken, kind, loving, nasty, quick to anger, generous, reluctant to forgive, and just generally a first class son of a bitch with an attitude.
But I am also a realist and I know that this country needs unity and an end to the divisiveness of the last 27 years.
The right wing yahoos could care less if they destroy the country and bring us all down with them, as long as they stay true to the Republican Party. That is ALL they care about.
Let them die on the vine like so many rotten tomatoes.
The rest of us need to rebuild this country with the vision of a RFK, MLK and JFK.
To Hell with the rest of them.
“I think you’re looking for excuses.”
I answered that one last night – no – you are wrong.
But let me ask this – who can Hillary INSPIRE?
Barack can inspire.
Martin could inspire.
John could inspire.
Bobby could inspire.
Hillary couldn’t inspire a dog to piss on a fire hydrant.
Farmgrrl, It’s late. I went out and am just back and read your 6:01 post. There can’t be any woman of any age who hasn’t experienced much of what you stated — and for no better reason than she is female. None of the other labels which indicate age, sexual orientation or race matter — we don’t have the same rights. How sad. And there is NO CANDIDATE who understands that better than Hillary Clinton.
Yes well WS,
You are demanding compromise from the wrong people.
Please show me the con candidate who is on the unity kick. You can’t. There’s a reason for that.
They don’t CARE about the country. They don’t care about their fellow American or human being. They don’t care about anything bigger than their own little selves.
You Obama supporters will have to measure who you might gain against who you WILL lose.
WSC, I hadn’t read your post before making mine. Who can Hillary inspire? ME!
WS?
Do you imagine I was inspired when Obama extolled Reagan and called the Republicans the “party of ideas”?
Maybe it was when he said we should reach out to the religious right that should have inspired me?
Inspired aint the word for what Obama raises in me. More like suspicion.
Ronald Reagan was a union leader and Democrat.
Convince me Obama has not been reprogrammed.
Hillary inspires ME. And I’m not just saying that. I’ve forever hoped she would run. I can’t believe you don’t think she inspires you too.
“You are demanding compromise from the wrong people.”
Nope, just asking for a good faith involvement from all parties – the Democrats control and will control the agenda – but we have to ASK the more reasonable and clear thinking Republicans to join us and to present their ideas.
We obviously can forget about the ideologues like Paul the Con, Nathan and McCharmin, but there are truly responsible folks on the other side of the aisle.
We just rarely see them on this blog.
JR — I gotta tell ya, you have really misinterpreted Obama’s statement on Reagan…
I wish I HAD THE TEXT of his actual comments… I can see what has you a little bit spooked… but I honestly think you either didnt hear it the right way when he said it or else you are mis-reading something… Cause, in all honesty, I didnt hear him say anything REAL supportive of Reagan… And believe me, until Bush, I thought Reagan was Worst President Ever… except for Nixon, and Andrew Johnson… LOL
I dont know what to tell you… except for to beg you to go back and listen to what he said One More Time… without any distractions… Please???
“Do you imagine I was inspired when Obama extolled Reagan and called the Republicans the “party of ideas”?”
Wrong again, J R, he stated that Reagan changed the trajectory of American politics.
There was no “extolling” about it.
And what does Hillary inspire the most – extreme partisanship on both sides.
The polls tell us that there is only ONE Democrat that could lose in November and that is Hillary Clinton.
I do NOT want to take that chance.
And, no, she does not inspire me in the least.
JR — try to think Tip O’Neal, and Reagan… fighting tooth and nail on issues… then going to have a cold beer at close of business… TIP never caved in to Reagan, BUT, he did deal with him… man to man… issue on issue…`
“Convince me Obama has not been reprogrammed.”
Horseshit. If you need to be convinced on that point, then there ain’t no convincing in this world that will change your mind.
Oh on the contrary WS.
The con posters here are VERY representative of the Republican party.
Which of them do you ask political mama to give up her seat at the table for?
And who is it you want me to give a seat so they can work with you?
And kfg, does she give up her chair for one of the Price’s?
It is what it is WS. And your side didn’t make it that way.
That is why I joined you. If you sell out to them, I DO have other places to go. Yes they are less relevant or powerful politically.
But at least I’d know who my friends are.
This is something you and Obama will have to come to terms with WS.
In the past thirty years, we have had a dearth of public figures that truly inspired a sense of hope and commitment. John began that in 1960, and we believed.
Our world came crashing down on November 22, 1963.
Above all, before or after him, Martin inspired us to believe in a world for ALL people.
Our world came crashing down on April 4, 1968.
And Bobby, walking in his brother’s footsteps and with the passion of Martin inspired us to reach beyond the politics of the day.
Our world came crashing down on June 6, 1968.
Since then, there has not been an American leader, public or private that has inspired a generation.
Barack Obama has that possibility. History is at our fingertips. Hope could be in our future. Change could become a reality.
There is NO OTHER candidate, public or private, that holds that possibility.
JR — let me tell you what I HEARD Obama say about Reagan… He said, as I heard it, that Ronald Reagan had come along and changed the DIRECTION of American Politics…
Meaning what?? That Reagan came along and made American Politics, something that did NOT work across party lines… as it had before… that did NOT seek to work for the good of the nation, but rather to further the ideals of ONE PARTY RULE….
THAT is the CHANGE that Reagan brought with him… And we have been severely divided ever since!! Some, like Tip O’neal, tried to reach across the aisle… And what did it get them?? A kick in the teeth!!
Now, I never heard for one minute Obama praising Ronald Reagan… I heard him saying that thanks to Reagan, we got most of the mess we got right now… even down to you misunderstanding Obama’s statement!!
I dont know if that helps you or not, or if you have your mind made up… But thats what I heard in Obama’s Reagan statement!!
Sounds like MCCaskey is giving an Admin. an end run play around any statute that it takes exception with, as long as they can fabricate some strained rationale in disregarding the law.
“The con posters here are VERY representative of the Republican party.”
Nonsense. Do you truly believe that Paul the Con, Nathan and Hank Price, McCharmin and the rest REALLY represent the Republican Party?
It is a big table – the Democrats control the seating arrangements and the after dinner drinks – but every NORMAL person can speak his mind.
Paul, Hank, Nathan, James and the rest are not normal.
No dinner for them – no drinks either.
We wouldn’t want any drunk Neocons walking the streets after dark.
Remember, J R, it is the Party of the Neocons that is the enemy – not the Republicans in general.
“And kfg, does she give up her chair for one of the Price’s?”
Only if I was bulimic.
You didn’t find “It takes a village” inspiring WS?
I did.
Like I say, you and Obama will have to reconcile who it is you will cut loose to embrace your new friends. Maybe it’s the better of my old conservatism. I don’t compromise and I don’t leave my friends behind to work with my enemies.
Exactly right, WSC.
A majority of Republicans know that their party has gone totally ape-sh*t, and they don’t want to continue to get taken for a ride.
That’s why they need to be courted and not damned.
“Do unto others as you wish them to do unto you” is not just good morals. It’s good politics.
I know my opinion doesn’t matter to anybody. I want to vote for Hillary. I will vote for Obama HAPPILY! No lookin’ back or wondering, just happily!
When I attended the caucus last Tuesday evening I was on a high like I can’t remember since the 60s! And the high lasted until I saw my fellow clear-thinking, well-informed, excellent people arguing.
I think (I HOPE!!) this is what will happen until our nominee is named!? Because the best part of last Tuesday evening was that we have some serious butt to kick next November! This current bunch — bushco — have set us back really badly! We need the adults to take over!! And, after we argue among ourselves and we have a candidate we know that candidate will be much better than anyone else!
Please remember the party that wants to legislate morals are the Republicans. And while you’re thinking about that remember how many Supremes are really OLD! Six of them OVER 68!
We’re gonna kick butt come November!
I don’t see Obama holding hands with Karl Rove and Dick Vader Cheney.
But the moderates he attracts, he can build a majority with.
Name any con blogger on this forum you care to and tell me they can be worked with WS.
Name any Republican candidate for President that Obama can work with.
I DO admire your optimism and hope. But as I say, now is not the time.
JR — As far as Obama saying that we need to reach out to the Evangelicals… Let me just say this… and I know the idealogues will jump all over me, and I DONT CARE…
For the past 43-45 years now the “evangelicals” have been staking their entire message on apocalyptic prophecies of the “end of the world” and some kind of great theological “escape” from the big bad harsh realities of the real world… they call it the “rapture” —
NONE of their prophecies have happened… They just keep on revising their previous messages …. they just say, well, we didnt read it right, or they say the calendar is off, or some other excuses…
The long and short of it is that their nice little idyllic ideological world is crumbling around them… unfulfilled prophecies… corruption in their pulpits and their leaders… financial boondoggles like Heritage Village USA, and Lynchburg, and the so-called Bishop in Atlanta, and his “closeted” fatherhood of secret children… and the guy on dope, and gay sex in Colorado…. And Mark Foley, etc, etc. and the wacko from Idaho….
Their Evangelical world is crumbling… They NEED somebody to reach out a hand that says, no matter who you are, or where you are on life’s journey, you are welcome here… (sort of like the Democrat caucus the other nite) BTW, that little line about who you are or where you are, that line is one of the current mottos of Obama’s Church Denomination… you can check it out at http://www.ucc.org
So, for all of those reasons and more, we really DO need to reach out our hand to the evangelicals, and let them know that even though their idyllic ideological rose colored world of apocalyptic prophecy has not happened, they can still be a faithful, and producted, and real part of the greater Christian Community…
Now, that also means, ultimately, that churches like Obama’s reach out across religious boundaries… even to those who have NO church affiliation…
It goes like this:
Find a need and meet it. See a hurt and heal it.
Dont know if you have ever heard anything like that before JR… If not, then maybe you can see that there IS a different side to the religious attitudes of the American People… At least I hope…
You can play too Capn.
It is the Neocons that is the enemy……..
Paul the Con thinks that the solution for everything is to cut tax on the wealthy.
Nathan thinks that a vegetarian Dino traveled on the Ark with Noah, five thousand years ago.
Hank thinks that Saddam was behind 9/11 and was good buddies with Osama.
McCharmin……. God knows if he has ever had a rational thought.
Max……………….. see above.
Those folks are the enemy, not folks like Hagel, Snowe, Collins, et al.
“Name any Republican candidate for President that Obama can work with.”
Ron Paul.
“Find a need and meet it. See a hurt and heal it.”
Really cool! I didn’t know some church had taken up what I have always thought was the way humans should behave!
I’m down on organized religion for very personal reasons, but I REALLY approve of this philosophy!
“Name any con blogger on this forum you care to and tell me they can be worked with WS”
GMC, SolDevVB,
Like I say, I voted Reagan in 1984. And that is not all.
I had a button made. I can show it to you.
“Darth Vader for President”
I KNOW how those people think. And I tell you that weakness is something you dare not show. Especially when you don’t need to.
It is up to Obama and his supporters to convince that he is not the candidate of compromise or worse.
Ronald Reagan said, “Trust, but verify.”
I don’t admire Ws anymore. I see him just as the other star crossed zombies. I have nothing against Obama, but when you say Hillary doesn’t inspire you in the least, you are no longer the person you have ever portrayed yourself to be on here.
I’m just dumbfounded. Obama inspires me too, but I let my brain keep it in check. I’m seriously disappointed in you.
“And I tell you that weakness is something you dare not show.”
Ah, but you are wrong, Grasshopper! You show what is perceived to be a weakness while drawing the enemy into your strength.
A weakness is only a weakness when the enemy can actually exploit it.
“I’m seriously disappointed in you.”
Sorry. I still greatly respect and admire you, P Mom.
Really.
There is a segment of conservatives who are sending money to Clinton in hopes that she is the candidate on the ballot in November. They believe Billary will be an easier target due to the great hate which exists in our nation for the dastardly duo.
I am not part of this campaign. My dislike for Bill and Hillary is so great – that I would rather have Obama in the White House, and the hope for compromise and unity, than endure more antics by Bill and the two faced Hillary who lies about her 35 years experience, and has lot’s of campaign money from big business.
Keep promoting Hillary. It further unites those of us on the fence in supporting the puke McCain as our only alternative.
With the nation nearly 50-50, it is going to be the luck of the draw on the democratic candidate winning. You will ultimately need some of us.
Risk it all with Billary?
American Way cements my support of Hillary Clinton!
Whatever WS. That’s another thing I get and see from you Obama supporters.
Patronizing those who question you and your idol.
As things stand now, I cannot vote for Obama. To answer a question from an enemy upthread, does this mean if Obama were the nominee I would vote McCain?
Absolutely not.
I’d take my vote and efforts where I could still find them respectable. I’d vote Green.
You Obama supporters have a lot to think about. From Baracks personal ego to questions as to where his allegiance really lies. He has to do what he has to do and so do you and I.
American Way
Billary?
maybe it’s time to finally grow up.
And I suspected I would draw democrats with blinders like you and JR to that post. In other words you are saying, regardless of qualifications or the ultimate nomination – I’ll take Hillary just to piss them all off.
Remember, we are all, “all” as Americans.
Conservatives are not “all” evil stereotypes. You may win your nomination, only to fail in in the final vote.
reagan was not a conserative.
you wanted him to be a conserative so bad you overlooked his true leanings.
another republican myth.
“Patronizing those who question you and your idol.”
Piss off, J R, I have ONE idol and he died April 4, 1968.
JR, Think real hard! Sometimes a vote against a candidate is like cutting your nose off to spite your face. Do you remember what the votes for Perot or Nader accomplished? If not, study up on that, please. Do you want your protest vote to abet the election of bush lite?? Support your cnadidate! I will never advice anyone to do less. But IF your candidate isn’t on the ballot, think really hard about the choice you make!
And part of that thinking MUST include the knowledge that 6 of the Supreme Court Justices are OLD! After president’s are gone, their choice(s) for the court live on, mold (on the bench I might add!) and then die. These appointments last waaay longer than the term of a president!
Killer Pizza LOL! I’m about as grown up as I’m every going to get. I’m on the downhill tread.
But there are many Americans – from both parties who are wondering and concerned about Bill’s role in the Hillary Whitehouse. Just as many were confused by Hillary’s roll in the Bill Whitehouse.
Billary is going to be a dictionary word, no matter how much you dislike it.
You do not know for certain that Bill is not using Hillary to get around the constitutional limits on power.
You would be quick to judge our current first lady, Mrs Bush, if she campaigned on “35 years experience”.
Even your own party members are scratching their heads trying to figure that one out.
Billary… Get used to it.
Just wait until they get in power. The name Clinton and negatives are going to inundate our nation. Another generation will grow up learning about the Blow Job in the White House, Monica’s blue dress, and that it is NOT sex.
It is going to be brutal.
It’s ok linda.
In Kansas, my vote in the general election for President means almost nothing. That is unless I cast it for a third party should the Dems fail me.
We need a third party.
WS?
“Piss off, J R,”
From what I have seen WS, that is yours and Obama’s attitude toward the Democratic base. So’s he and you can work with the enemy?
Well maybe the numbers work out for you maybe not. Me I don’t do that sort of math.
Good night.
WSC, If you are still around I loved and laughed heartily at your wonderful input about Clinton being BOTH the only president to get head in the Oval Office (that we know for sure!) AND also the only president in way too long to balance the budget! I too think there must be a correlation!
“That is unless I cast it for a third party should the Dems fail me.”
It is you that has failed the Democratic Party, J R.
The Party is about America first and party second, unlike the Republicans. True Democrats will not sink to the level of the lowest of the Republicans, just as we will not sink to the level of the al Qaeda terrorists.
We are better than that.
We are better Americans than that.
We are better citizens than that.
We can and will work with Republicans that are clear minded and reasonable.
We will not work with Neocons.
We will not continue the partisan warfare of the last 27 years.
We will put America first.
J R posted February 7, 2008 at 11:33 pm
“As things stand now, I cannot vote for Obama. To answer a question from an enemy upthread, does this mean if Obama were the nominee I would vote McCain?
Absolutely not.
I’d take my vote and efforts where I could still find them respectable. I’d vote Green.”
You need to do a reality check. You would have the same impact, if you did not even vote.
And I was saying goodnight.
WS?
Sell it to the other side. I aint buying.
I like being able to look myself in the mirror.
“We can and will work with Republicans that are clear minded and reasonable.”
You get yourself a working group with the tooth fairy, Mary Poppins, and paulthecon.
I don’t like who it is you and yours are leaving out to reach out to the enemy.
I won’t wish you good luck.
I do feel it is appropriate to tell you good bye.
Kelly Cannan
Posted February 7, 2008 at 7:38 pm | Permalink
Dear lefty libs, and you know who you are, why can’t you start your own country, say on an island 250 miles south of Hawaii, you can use a boat called the Minnow, there you can do what you want, have no military, no weapons of mass destruction, then explain how you got wiped out when an enemy island takes over., if you survive.
so, you want to go forth and kill everyone.
well, except france…
they make really good french fries.
it’s funny how y’all neo-cons’ answer to everyone else is to say…
why don’t you move somewhere else.
i think it’s our country, not your country.
turn rush off, try to have a positive thought, and, oh yeah…
move away… !!!
J/K… well kinda.
“You would be quick to judge our current first lady, Mrs Bush, if she campaigned on “35 years experience”.”
————————
You have never posted more true words!
It has only seemed like at least 35 years she and her hubby have occupied OUR white house. And, I suspect she has paid little attention during the seven years they’ve actually been there. If she had paid attention it would only have hurt her more. I’m guessing she learned long ago to live her own life and ignore his.
Why do I get the strange feeling that JR isnt “sounding” quite like JR normally sounds like?? Sounds almost like a Repub, covering up just a bit… Anybody else get that feeling??
Nope, he is our our loved J R. He is understandably angry at what bushco has done to our world. And he is young and has much passion. I’m not finding fault but I hope to sway his opinion. Sorry, J R. You know RIGHT NOW I support Hillary! If Obama is the candidate I will support him. I hope you will too! Our future is just too important to allow Republicans to have very much input in the future. They’ve proven to elect screw ups!
American Way
Posted February 7, 2008 at 11:45 pm | Permalink
Killer Pizza LOL! I’m about as grown up as I’m every going to get. I’m on the downhill tread.
ME TOO.
But there are many Americans – from both parties who are wondering and concerned about Bill’s role in the Hillary Whitehouse. Just as many were confused by Hillary’s roll in the Bill Whitehouse.
SO YOUR FRIENDS ARE CONCERNED ABOUT YOUR SPOUSES ROLE IN YOUR HOUSE? REALLY, IT’S JUST A WAY TO CLAIM CONCERN ABOUT A DEMOCRATIC. WHO THE HECK IS BILL WHITEHOUSE? ANY RELATION TO AMY WINEHOUSE?
Billary is going to be a dictionary word, no matter how much you dislike it.
LOL
You do not know for certain that Bill is not using Hillary to get around the constitutional limits on power.
LOL2 YOUR KIDDING, RIGHT? I DON’T GIVE THAT A LOT OF THOUGHT.
You would be quick to judge our current first lady, Mrs Bush, if she campaigned on “35 years experience”.
AS… A LIBRARIAN?
LAURA IS AS MUCH OF A RICH IDIOT AS GEORGE AND HIS MOM.
Even your own party members are scratching their heads trying to figure that one out.
Billary… Get used to it.
NO.
Just wait until they get in power. The name Clinton and negatives are going to inundate our nation. Another generation will grow up learning about the Blow Job in the White House, Monica’s blue dress, and that it is NOT sex.
I’M SURE YOU AND RUSH THE ADDICT WILL HAPPILY CONTINUE TO BRING THAT UP AS OFTEN AS POSSIBLE. THAT BJ DIDN’T KILL 4,000 AMERICAN KIDS, AND WASTE 3 KAJILLION TAXPAYER DOLLARS. ONLY BILL CONSIDERED IT A WMD.
It is going to be brutal.
IT’S ALWAYS BRUTAL TO BE A DEM IN AMERICA.
i certainly hope so, Linda… but ya know, he hasnt answered ONE thing I have said to him so far… That just doesnt seem normal to me… oh well….
Good night; Good luck; and
God bless; Whatever you conceive
God to be!
Blessings All!!
And also to Econ’s granddaughter!!
“You do not know for certain that Bill is not using Hillary to get around the constitutional limits on power.
You would be quick to judge our current first lady, Mrs Bush, if she campaigned on “35 years experience”.
Even your own party members are scratching their heads trying to figure that one out.”
On that first one, you have GALL to think HE would use those powers after all your president has done. WTFE.
Hillary HAS 35 years of experience…she did work for children right after law school, she DID help Bill all through the years sitting on committees and campaigns and PR. She also had her own practice where she juggled her family life, her public life and her personal life. It’s not like she was a librarian. She has quite the long history of work doing REAL things.
If you mention their sex life one more time, I guess I”ll have to break out good ole John McCain’s infidelity record too. Why aren’t we talking about that??? because it’s STUPID.
Let me make one thing PERFECTLY clear – come November I will be casting my vote for the Democratic candidate for President, whether that is Barack or Hillary. Furthermore, after the Convention, I will be campaigning for WHOMEVER is the Democratic choice.
I will not waste my vote – I will not vote blue, purple or chartreuse.
I will vote for the Democrat.
Any Democrat is better than the best of the Republicans.
We have seen today that the Republicans care only for their party and their ideals.
As Democrats, we are better than that; we put AMERICA first, not party.
The Republicans are running on a platform of Half-America………………. as witnessed by McCain’s victory speech today and Romney’s see ya’ later speech.
We are better than that and we will not sink to their level. They put party ahead of country.
We don’t.
I will actively support our candidate – heart and soul.
I believe that our best possible candidate is Barack Obama, but I WILL support Hillary Clinton and will actively campaign for her with the same passion and intensity that I would for Barack.
I will not sell out because I didn’t get my first choice as a candidate.
I am a Democrat and have been all my life.
But first, I am an American.
“I won’t wish you good luck.”
Spoken like a true Republican.
Sigh…………………………………..
bush has f’ed up
the economy
eldery americans health care
veterans
american kids in the military
iraq
new orleans
the enviroment
miners
american workers
middle class americans
the english language
public schools
homeless families
the lower class
minorities
our privacy
the constitution
republicans
the budget
religion
the cost of gas
being a real texan
he tried to f up our love of french fries.
and he makes “recovered” drug addicts look bad.
he has helped the rich, which makes me feel much better.
maybe if laura would do that oral sexual thang at least once he would feel better too.
now that’s a visual i apologize for bringing up.
P Mom, be disappointed in me, too. I am not inspired by Hillary Clinton. I admire her and I’ll support her if she’s the chosen candidate. I’ll do it with a smile. A real one. But inspiring? What is she supposed to be inspiring in me?
Okay, I feel compelled to say at the outset that I’m not defending or endorsing Obama–or bashing him, for that matter.
Now that I got that out of the way. . ..
JR, dude: If you want a long-lasting Dem and/or liberal majority. . . where are those people going to come from?
I’d like a see an America that cherished and promoted the things I find important. But, even if I got my way, that would involve changing many minds. We ain’t gonna do that with a flamethrower. . .ya know?
At this time, huge chunks of the old Republican coalition are dissatisfied–albeit for wildly different reasons. And more and more evangelicals are sick of politics, and the hatemongers ruling in their stead (PBS had a good special on that, much of it featuring Wichita).
Without a sustained shift in electoral politics, this brief “Prague spring” will be soon crushed under the tanks (metaphorical if not actually even literal) of the 3-piece-and-fangs crowd.
The implications are terrifying.
Perhaps we’re asking the wrong question. I submit that it should be: Who is smart, diplomatic and wary enough to reach to the Republicans . . .without selling out, or drawing back a stump? Clinton or Obama?
(chortles)
Chortles?? At this hour?? Surely there is a pill for that affliction!! :roll:
“Any Democrat is better than the best of the Republicans.
We have seen today that the Republicans care only for their party and their ideals.” WSCLARK
Does anyone else see the hypocrisy in Clark’s statement?
Why is no one mentioning or noticing that McCain is a MODERATE?
If MODERATE Republicans have one of their own they can vote for, WHY would they vote for a Democrat?
If a wingnut were heading up the Republican ticket, I’d agreed that Obama could draw crossovers in the general election.
But Republicans are not going to wholesale abandon their party (except in Ks). If they can stomach voting for one of their own, they will.
And it seems to me, I brought up the failures of the republicans to work with the Democrats NOW.
Pelosi and Reid are two of their own. You think all of a suddent the moderate Republicans in congress are going to NOW want to work with Democrats?
Because they are inspired?
I’m not advocating we pick a fight with them. I AM advocating a progressive agenda. And that alone will bring out their fighting tactics. And when that happens?
I want a tough old broad like Hillary at the helm to knock their heads together. I read someone where today that the ONLY enemy to SUCCESSFULLY fight the right wing machine has been the “Clinton Machine”.
You want to take your chances on a kumbaya rookie?
Remember in November..
The race does not always go to the swift and the strong… but that is DAMN sure how you bet your money.
It would be interesting to see the results of how many of those “crossovers” who came over to vote in the D primary will “crossback” to re-register as Rs even if they cant vote in this R primary. I wonder how long their “conversion” will last.
And anyone who wants to reach out a hand to “hurting” evanagelicals better not be throwing me and mine under the bus. You think they will EVER accept equal rights for gays?
Obama has already shown a willingness to throw me and mine away to PANDER (reach out?) to the evangelicals in SC. If that is your idea of “reaching out” and “working with” the evangelicals… no thanks.
I’ve already got tire marks on my ass. I suspect all you “work with the republicans and evangelicals” will GLADLY sacrifice us in the interest of “coalition building”.
Obama already has.
Yes Amway.
“We have seen today that the Republicans care only for their party and their ideals.” WSCLARK”
This is the same guy that thinks Obama can INSPIRE them to change their minds. And that “Republicans” can be worked with.
Cant have it both ways, now can we?
McCain a moderate?
You’re joking—right?
Question is, Hillary is a known quantity. You know what she is going to try to get passed.
Obama? Not so much. Has he taken a stand on any issues? Has he backed anything up with proposed policy?
Bunch of lip service if you ask me. Where does he stand other than wanting to ‘reach across the aisle’?
KSFrmGrrl–
I think Clark was talking about the public Republicants like Romney, not the rank and file.
*****
I think I understand why you support Hillary and oppose Obama.
You see her as a tough, middle aged woman who has paid her dues and deserves respect and support. Also, you appreciate the (more than) symbolic victory this represents for women. People without a Y chromosome finally get to be President too.
I think those are very good reasons to support Hillary.
I hope that you — and JR and P-Mom — can respect our decision to back Obama as based on reasons equally important to us.
She is also a known quantity on all that the smear machine will bring up. Anything they could find to use against her has been found. They’ve searched high and low, then higher and lower for years. They got nothing and everything they make up is defensible. Must suck for them!
Also, a good point, Linda.
Well now, THAT’s pretty condescending, isnt it captain?
Yea, I do think all those things, but they are not the MOST important things.
I think she would be a competant, courageous, and MAGNIFICENT President. In a REAL, not symbolic way. I want a POLICY WONK! I want someone who understands government from the inside out. I want someone who is mature enough to master the DETAILS of policy and the effects policy changes will have.
Hell, I think as a gay woman, I’ve had about all the symbolism I can stand. I want a REAL and TOUGH President who can stand up to all threats to liberty.
Both internal and external. I want someone who doesnt need OJT. I want someone who’s BEEN through the partisan wars… and won.
Obama would be a great VP. AND I could support him in eight years.
Do you support Obama just for the symbolism and charisma he generates? Because I think we’ve seen with the shrubter what happens when you put someone inexperienced and symbolic and charismatic in the office of the President.
How’s THAT work for us all?
“McCain a moderate?
You’re joking—right?”
Well Rage, that is what his fellow republicans call him. That is what the MSM calls him. NO, I think he is a right winger too.
But it doesnt matter what I think. What matters is what those potential “crossover” republican voters think.
“Nearly one in five “HillRaisers,” the elite big-money fundraisers for Sen. Hillary Rodham Clinton’s presidential campaign, have ties to the 1990s fundraising scandal that tarnished her husband’s presidency by offering Democratic donors sleepovers in the Lincoln Bedroom and other perks inside the White House.”
She does make the hate come easy.
“Democrat Barack Obama suggested Thursday that Hillary Rodham Clinton follow his lead and release her and her husband’s income tax returns so the public can see where the $5 million she loaned her presidential campaign came from.”
Damned right wing nut!
Rage, this is BRILLIANT. And it does ask the essential question.
“Without a sustained shift in electoral politics, this brief “Prague spring” will be soon crushed under the tanks (metaphorical if not actually even literal) of the 3-piece-and-fangs crowd.
The implications are terrifying.
Perhaps we’re asking the wrong question. I submit that it should be: Who is smart, diplomatic and wary enough to reach to the Republicans . . .without selling out, or drawing back a stump? Clinton or Obama?”
I know who I chose. I chose Hillary. She, unlike Obama, did NOT sell out the gays in SC.
And really, with all due respect, who will obama sell out next to “reach out” to the other side?
JR and Pmom – You call Obama supporters Zombies and condescending. There is something wrong about being excited about a candidate? Like Linda, I was on a high after the caucus, and then the attacks on Obama supporters started. Why, because he did well?
Fleetwood – He has already released his.
tdt– No, duh?
It’s only reason # 1,203,546 for why people hate her.
Fleetwood – I don’t know who is more annoying, you or Max. However, my point was that you left out the part where Obama released his income tax records as he does every year, and the media is spinning it.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080208/ap_on_el_pr/obama_taxes
“Asked whether he would call on the Clintons to release their tax returns, Obama stopped short of saying they should.”
“I’ll just say that I’ve released my tax returns. That’s been a policy I’ve maintained consistently. I think the American people deserve to know where you get your income from. But I’ll leave it up to you guys to chase it down,” he told reporters on the flight to Omaha, Neb., for a rally.
tdt–
Do you think she should release her returns?
P.S. I am more annoying.
“Does anyone else see the hypocrisy in Clark’s statement?”
“This is the same guy that thinks Obama can INSPIRE them to change their minds. And that “Republicans” can be worked with.”
Whatever.
America first. Party second.
Fleetwood – At this point, I think she must. It’s about transparency, which is what we are craving in our next leader, after the machiavellian administration we have endured the last seven years.
“If that is your idea of “reaching out” and “working with” the evangelicals… no thanks.”
I agree kfg. And if a balance of the party follows Obama down that road, they will do it without me.
I don’t bail on my friends to pander to the enemy.
“they will do it without me.”
Gladly.
Happily and able to look myself in the mirror.
TDT, I’ve been hammering on obama since October. And you know why I started in that month.
Sorry, but I hear voters in some states ARE having buyers remorse after Tuesday.
And yeah, the primary in Kansas is over. But the nomination hasnt been won by ANYONE.
Rolling over and giving up isnt my long suit, if ya know what I mean…
And I think obama has time to apologize for mccloset and caldwell, and to gavin newsome, and to grow and learn.
In fact, I think the VP slot would be a GREAT place for him to grow and learn. I’d LOVE to support him for prez.
In 2016.
ksfarmgrrl
Posted February 8, 2008 at 9:54 am | Permalink
“It would be interesting to see the results of how many of those “crossovers” who came over to vote in the D primary will “crossback” to re-register as Rs even if they cant vote in this R primary. I wonder how long their “conversion” will last.”
Farm girl, I am one of those. I didn’t walk into the devils den of democrats :-) alone. Went with a few other evil republicans. Once we got to the Obama corner – saw a bunch more smiling back at us.
It was more important to us to get rid of Hillary, than voting w/republicans Saturday.
As it turns out, there isn’t anyone worth a hill of beans on the ballot on Saturday, and the Kansas vote will have zero effect anyway. Someone has already annoitted that old, old man, McCain.
Not worth the gas to drive down there.
And I’ve already taken steps to reregister.
It wasn’t so much a movement from one side of the fan section to the other. It was more a statement against the Clintons.
If Obama wins, heck, I’ll bet some stay blue people. But for me, I would like to be voting FOR a republican candidate I like, instead of voting for what I consider the lesser of two evils.
If I could have voted both Tuesday and Saturday – Ron Paul would have been my guy.
ours is SUPPOSED to be the party of respect for seniority.
But I fear the Obama crowd will not wait.
They SHOULD be mindful. The first time Obama says something an independent or a new hope Republican convert does not like?
They’ll turn on a dime and be all over him.
If we were to vote based on seniority and experience alone, we would all being voting for………. John McCain.
That ain’t gonna happen.
As I used to say in the business world, do you have 35 years of experience or one year of experience 35 times?
My thought is that McCain has the latter.
There is a BIG difference between seniority and experience. Seniority measures how long ya been there. Experience measures what you’ve done and LEARNED while you were there.
“Rochester physician Terry Bennett said he rented a city building to people who worked for Sen. Hillary Clinton’s presidential campaign — and skipped town without paying the bill.
Making matters worse, Bennett said, the 3,000-square-foot building at 236 Union St. was left trashed. Campaign signs were left lying all over the place, he said.”
We should not hate Hillary. She runs a class act!
My dad always used the “seniority” thing when he was reading the Sunday paper in the bathroom.
Hey TDT,
Well, my little feelings are hurt. TDT is wondering who is mre annoying and my name didn’t come up. fleetwood is pretty annoying but Max is more consistant.
However, if it’s a contest you want, I’m your man. YOu seldom post anything I care to comment on, but I’ll look you up from time to time.
Congrats on your caucus by the way! If you thought about it, are you for Obama more than you are against Hillary?