Two new studies cast doubt on whether ethanol and other biofuels are an environmentally friendly alternative to fossil fuels in addressing climate change. The studies, published in the prestigious journal Science, for the first time take into account the environmental costs of worldwide pressure to convert natural areas to cropland to grow corn and other plants for biofuels.
Clearing the land by burning or plowing releases greenhouse gases, as do refinement and transportation of the fuel. Moreover, the loss of natural areas, whether rain forest or scrubland, makes the land less able to absorb carbon.
“When you take this into account, most of the biofuel that people are using or planning to use would probably increase greenhouse gases substantially,†said Timothy Searchinger of Princeton University, lead author of one of the studies.
Time to take a hard look at all those ethanol subsidies in the farm bill.
89 Comments
Enter cosmos in three … two …
Many people have been saying that ethanol, especially derived from corn, would not help our environment at all. Cosmos is just one of them. Ksfg has informed us how it will deplete our underground water supply, and I can’t remember who it was that discussed the much more environment friendly option as hemp for biofuel. It’s turning into another money maker for the elite, just like oil, rather than helping the environment.
Biofuels could be very helpful, IF — IF farmers planted the corners of their center pivots with the HEMP PLANT… Hemp would NOT take awake from Food/Grain crops… uses much less water… AND, yields a much higher harvest, from much less land use…
LEGALIZE HEMP!!
HEMP can also be grown, and harvested in land that is not generally crop-friendly for Corn…
And on another thread, somebody said biofuel was having a bad influence on wheat prices… BUT… last I heard, WHEAT isnt being used in the Ethanol plants… more propaganda, I think…
Solution….hydrogen fuel cells.
Except then instead of being so dependent on OPEC and Venezuela for oil we would be at least equally dependent on Russia and South Africa for platinum and palladium. Oh never mind, maybe we should just drill in Alaska and the ocean for more oil independence after all.
This ethanol scam is only useable if they find a way to use Cellulosetic ethanol made from grasses etc. Corn based only returns on a factor of 1.3 energy per unit put in.
Cellulose based returns up to 8 to 1 put in. But its not perfected yet.
And burning your own food stuffs should be criminal offense. I would round up and put in jail these fools that are pulling this scam now days.
Then close down and sell for scrap every ethanol plant in the US.
And on another thread, somebody said biofuel was having a bad influence on wheat prices… BUT… last I heard, WHEAT isnt being used in the Ethanol plants… more propaganda, I think…
Posted by Chas.
Doubtful. One of the things you will find is that as one commodity goes up (corn) others rise with it. Traders, livestock feeders changing their mix, etc. Also, given the drought last year, the old wheat supply is very short, driving up prices.
cellulosic ethanol is the way to go – especially using trash of various kinds. Then biodiesel from other ‘garbage’ like turkey guts. NOT from ‘dedicated production’
Chas posted;
“And on another thread, somebody said biofuel was having a bad influence on wheat prices… BUT… last I heard, WHEAT isnt being used in the Ethanol plants… more propaganda, I think…”
Wheat ground is being converted to grow corn for ethanol. Wheat prices are up because of bad freeze damage last harvest, and low production around the world as well, and there are less acres of wheat being planted because of higher profits from ‘corn as fuel’ than can be realized by growing wheat.
It’s also causing a spike in food prices and availability, especially where they can afford it the least. Which is more important IMO than worries about greenhouse gas emissions.
http://www.ens-newswire.com/ens/jan2008/2008-01-25-insbro.asp
Where are you going to get “Hydrogen” ??
Drill a hydrogen well?
nope. Hydrogen is NOT a PRIMARY fuel source, it is solely a storage medium.
You can only get it from reforming natural gas…?? or breaking down water via electrolysis with either Nuke electrical plant or photovoltaic cells to break it down.
All drive the price up astronomically high.
Plus you CAN NOT put it in the existing steel pipes used to transport our current gas and oil.
Hydrogen gas molecules are so small it permeates through the steel walls of the pipe and embrittles it till it breaks up like peanut brittle.
The oil industry has issues with hydrogen on a daily basis with Hydrogen Sulfide contained in the oils.
Ben
Posted February 12, 2008 at 2:38 pm | Permalink
cellulosic ethanol is the way to go – especially using trash of various kinds. Then biodiesel from other ‘garbage’ like turkey guts. NOT from ‘dedicated production’
I just flashed to “Back to the Future”.
Boxlock posted February 12, 2008 at 2:32 pm
“Solution….hydrogen fuel cells.
The solution = higher energy efficiency.
That reduces the need for oil, natural gas, biofuels, electricity, and hydrogen.
mrbill – correct. H2 has to come from somewhere – I have favored it as a aprt of the ‘transmission’ medium for nuclear power.
Corn has never been a good source of bio-fuel, the government only pushes it because big agribusiness want them too, gov $$$$ in subsidies. Switch-grass, Sugar, Hemp, vegetable waste oil, are all better sources for bio-fuel than corn. Hemp is also good source for biomass fuel, and pulp for paper saving old growth forests from paper mills
cosmos posted;
“The solution = higher energy efficiency.”
cosmos, no matter how high the efficiency you still need to have a source of fuel and convert it, yielding byproducts and problems.
And ‘mrbill’, most of my point with the fuel cells comment is that no matter what energy source we turn to there are problems greater that burning oil.
Pond Scum.
“Pond Scum.”
Hey, I resemble that remark!
Once superconductors are perfected, hydrogen, produced by the energy plants, can be transported via the superconductor cables, to hydrogen distribution stations (gas stations), to homes to be used for heating and cooling, and industry, what little of it left that hasn’t been gobbled up by NAFTA.
One important point, is that they are taking into consideration, virgin land which has to be cleared, thus increasing the cost to the environment, and fuel consumed in the process.
But corn ethanol doesn’t sound like the way to go in any event. Algae processing, sounds promising.
Oil is algae 10 million years later. The most promising research on “plants to fuel” use algae. One of the colleges my son got a letter from has a line of ongoing research with oil producing algae.
http://www.unh.edu/p2/biodiesel/article_alge.html
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=18800996
Thats why hemp, which grows extremley tall and densly and in any climate in the world except the poles, is the best choice. Its cellous fiber content makes it the best plant for the job. Plus you can grow them in green houses stacked on top of each other like a tower using grow lights powered by solar panels. Does anybody not know this, jesus.
Hemp can be harvested 4 times a year.
Hemp can also be used as paper, it actually makes better paper, we can stop the deforestation of trees.
Yes, Tom Paine, I’m glad I see someone on here who knows the power of hemp.
If dupont, and all the chemical and oil companies, and all the paper companies are so threatned by the hemp indusrty why don’t they just join in and profit from it. Thats the whole reason why Marijuana is illegal in the first place, so they could outlaw hemp.
http://www.hort.purdue.edu/newcrop/ncnu02/v5-284.html
Everything you need to know from a paper published from Purdue, on how Hemp can save the world.
Wheat is to finicky to grow as a bio-fuel, wheat is not a weed. Hemp is a weed, that grows like a weed, that grows anywhere in the world like a weed. A crop of hemp will not die from freeze damadge, or water damadge, its one of the hardiest weeds in the world.
Boxlock posted February 12, 2008 at 3:02 pm | Permalink
“cosmos, no matter how high the efficiency you still need to have a source of fuel and convert it, yielding byproducts and problems.”
Well duhhh…
My point was it’s stupid to burn biofuels in 15 mpg vehicles, when we could easily build vehicles that get 30 mpg — and state of art vehicles would get 60 mpg, or higher.
http://www.jackherer.com/chapter02.html
All those alternatives need water for processing. Locate the plants where water is plentiful, NOT in western Kansas.
Could it happen here? Hays and Russell know they are draining Cedar Bluff and must turn now to Lake Wilson for their water. I guess they want to drain ALL the lakes in Kansas?
I think California thought THIS would never happen either.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/livescience/20080212/sc_livescience/lakemeadcoulddryupby2021
The water requirments to grow hemp is on average 40% less than any other crop. Pestecides are virtually uncessary to grow hemp, you don’t have to worry about run-off contaminating ground water.
Elephant, did you know in the 1920’s Henry Ford was making prototype cars using plastics made from Hemp,and Flax, and not from petro-chemicals
Grow hemp. Grow a few marijuana plants next to it. Harvest both. Convert the hemp into paper products and biofuel. Send the marijuana to me.
Everyone (especially me) is happy.
Hemp grows in the deserts in Mexico, no need to worry about water.
Wheat doesnt have enough sugar or starch in it to use as a biofuel. Whether biofuels are good for the price of wheat depends on if you are buying wheat or selling wheat. Acres of wheat converted to corn make the wheat crop smaller and drive up prices.
And corn needs LOTs of water, ie, irrigation. If it is dryland corn out here, rest assured, they are farming subsidies, not corn.
Tom, yup, and the oil companies crushed his dreams.
Hemp is also a healthy food, its chock full of fiber, and omega-3 essential fatty acids that are mostly found in nuts and fish.
And Randy, it isnt just the direct subsidies for ethanol. It is the HUGE subsidies the corn growers and the irrigation districts get as well.
Perhaps you should call your buddy jill docking and have her let governor leadership know that ethanol may not be the best thing for kansas?
Not mentioned here is the idea of car makers producing cars that get a minimum 35 mpg — SUVs down to coopers — it’s doable and shouldn’t take til 2020 — 2-3 years max
Hemp is also a healthy food, its chock full of fiber, and omega-3 essential fatty acids that are mostly found in nuts and fish.
WS I like the way u think — (loud sucking sound over the sound of bubbling water)
“Hemp is also a healthy food, its chock full of fiber, and omega-3 essential fatty acids that are mostly found in nuts and fish.
”
You must be joking, right? How in the heck would you consume hemp?
I think you can grind it up and put it on pizza or in brownies…
hmmm. Brownies. I remember brownies. sorta
cosmos posted;
“Well duhhh…
My point was it’s stupid to burn biofuels in 15 mpg vehicles, when we could easily build vehicles that get 30 mpg — and state of art vehicles would get 60 mpg, or higher.”
Well duhhh…you can’t haul anything in those vehicles, and if you ride in them they can get you killed. Grow up and try and live in a world of reasonable practicality instead of your pseudo-scientific dream world.
http://www.hempcar.org/hempban.shtml
Actually Marijuana shouldn’t even be illegal, you don’t see people getting into fights at bars or shooting people after using pot, like you see with alcohol. You don’t hear of people very often getting into car crashes after using pot, like you do with alcohol, you don’t hear of people having a wild night and ending up pregnant from using pot, like you do with alcohol. You don’t hear of people becoming physcially addicted to pot then having the chance of dying from going through severe withdrawls from pot, like you do with alcohol. The only problems it causes is lung damadge which people don’t smoke packs of pot a day like cigarettes. It might cause motivational problems if people abuse it, but those people have a substance abuse problem, just like people with alcohol have a substance abuse problem or any other psychotropic drug people use recreationly. I’m sure alcoholics are more debilitated than pot heads, alcohol is basically posion. You wonder why people went nuts when alcohol was banned during the prohibition and not pot, why because alcoholics go nuts without alcohol, you don’t see people flipping out when they stop using marijuana.
Well, like I always say…
I’ve never seen anyone lying in a gutter with a joint in their hand…
Didn’t George Washington grow hemp? I thought I heard that one time, but that was a few years ago.
people have been eating hempseed for thousands of years
You don’t see anti-alcohol propaganda ads on t.v. showing the very real dangers of alcohol, instead you see advertisments selling alcohol. All you see on t.v. are these anti-marijuana ads showing kids with motivational problems, thats it, gee golly wow, look how dangerous pot is, it makes some people with addictive personality traits, and substance abusers lack motivation. Wow, where are the anti-meth ads, where are the anti crack, and cocaine ads, I guess those are uppers, you can stay up 36 hours while driver your Semi from state to state, good for profits I guess. Wheres the anti-painkiller, opiate, and heroin ads. Anybody think this is a little F’n crazy besides me.
George Washington did grow hemp, and it was made illegal in some colonies to not grow it. The revolutionary war depended on hemp production.
Used to have a hemp rope until it finally rotted.
The Drugs that killed Elvis, Judy Garland, Marilyn Monroe and Heath Leger, was all shit you get from your doctor
Actually Box, with existing technology (hybrid engines and composite materials) a 30mpg large vehicle is achievable. Even the old Mazda MPV with old technology gets 25mpg.
But who is willing to pay the cost? Or are you suggesting more tax credits? ANd what atbout the millions who do not purchase new vehicles, or new vehicles very often. All that technology must be economically feasible, or it is destined for failure.
Ninety cent limits tomorrow on wheat trading? It was down the limit of sixty cents today. Looks like the speculators are bailing and farmers will hold the bag.
http://dtnag.com/dtnag/common/link.do?symbolicName=/ag/blogs/template1&blogHandle=grainmarkets&blogEntryId=8a82c0bc179eb30701180fa38e9e0541
And right on cue, an article about how ethanol is affecting food prices and world hunger.
Calling governor leadership and her little dogs parkinson and harkins…
http://dtnag.com/dtnag/common/link.do?symbolicName=/ag/blogs/template1&blogHandle=grainmarkets&blogEntryId=8a82c0bc179eb30701180fa38e9e0541
littlejohn
Posted February 12, 2008 at 4:37 pm | Permalink
“Hemp is also a healthy food, its chock full of fiber, and omega-3 essential fatty acids that are mostly found in nuts and fish.
”
You must be joking, right? How in the heck would you consume hemp?
__________________________________________________
http://www.globalhempstore.com/hemp-food/
WhiteElephant-
Thanks for the link. I had no idea. But, at the moment, I think I will pass. Just didn;t look that tasty to me. Or maybe it is the image of hemp rope. I don;t know. ANyway, I have learned something new today. TOday is a good day. Thanks
Whats funny is after the government made hemp illegal they had to make this
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=thXlMmiUMPE
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hmCveHulR3U
Cellulose content of differnt plants, two parts of hemp yeild cellouse content, way more than other crops.
HEMP
Bast
64.8 %
Core
34.5 %
Soft Pine
44%
Spruce
42%
Wheat Straw
34%
Rice Straw
32.1%
Corn Stover
28%
Switchgrass
32.5%
Meanwhile – say goodbye to Lake Mead. :)
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/23130256/wid=18298287
Dry Lake Mead? 50-50 chance by 2021 seen
Study cites warming, water use and growing Colorado River deficit
Ben
Posted February 12, 2008 at 5:04 pm | Permalink
“Actually Box, with existing technology (hybrid engines and composite materials) a 30mpg large vehicle is achievable. Even the old Mazda MPV with old technology gets 25mpg.”
Thanks Ben for you reasonable response, as contrasted with the rather juvenile postings typical of cosmos.
I agree with you that with good design much can be done, and maybe even made safe too. You can’t get around the laws of physics though and perpetual motion, as much as cosmos would like and almost calls for, is not achievable.
I don’t believe in destroying the economy in a hysterical attempt to save it.
White Elephant, I believe in the power of Hemp too.
Do you know any of what the current and future marketing investments of Hemp are here in the United States?
Boxlock posted February 12, 2008 at 4:43 pm
“Well duhhh…you can’t haul anything in those vehicles, and if you ride in them they can get you killed. Grow up and try and live in a world of reasonable practicality instead of your pseudo-scientific dream world.
You seem clueless about the many ways to increase mpg, without reducing size, safety, and “reasonable practicality”.
http://www.ucsusa.org/clean_vehicles/cars_pickups_suvs/building-a-better-suv.html
http://www.hypercars.com/
Safety comes from proper design, with the correct materials, not from size and/or weight. Bicycle helmets are not made from steel.
This environmental panic is what causes these types of problems that while well intentioned, end up causing more damage than if left alone. Farmgirl is right using our water and food source for food is a bad idea. In fact we get hit twice- grain prices and livestock prices go up because of demand. Mean while an inadequate aquifer is being depleted. Ethanol seemed like a horrible idea to me from the beginning. Also, the rush to build these plants has caused big problems in construction quality control, I have seen this first hand. Problems are found during construction, recommendations are made, and overlooked. I would say within five years many of these plants will have tragic accident.
Ben,
A good read (PDF) re vehicles, chapter “2. Reinventing the Wheels: Hypercars and Neighborhoods” at,
http://www.natcap.org/sitepages/pid20.php
The OilEndgame report has a lot of info on cars, trucks, and planes, but they’re offline today.
cosmos posted; “Safety comes from proper design, with the correct materials, not from size and/or weight. Bicycle helmets are not made from steel.”
And bicycle helmets will only protect you minimally in a bicycle fall, not in a crash against steel.
But…use what you like.
ANTI – it’s too bad nobody listens to the scientists instead of the deniers. Just like when the tobacco industry continued to push the lies that nicotine is not addictive and that cigarettes are good for you.
just to clear things up, I am not buying Man Made Global Warming. But at the same time I do think we need to address our energy problems and address them rationally and not in a panic knee jerk way.
“Thanks Ben for you reasonable response, as contrasted with the rather juvenile postings typical of cosmos.”
You haven’t been paying attention (there is another possibility, but I am frankly tired of the endless stupid speculation about who is who-like I say, respond to the message, not who you think the person is). Cosmos is usually quite reasonable, but he is one of the most attacked posters on this blog. Why? Because he is uncompromising but knows what he is talking about. This combination is lethal, and when opponents find themselves losing, they turn to ad hominem and straw man creations.
Regarding the subject, biofuels are a complex subject. For example, here we talk about corn a lot. In Indonesia, the biggest threat to rainforests is the palm oil industry, and what has created a spike in palm oil activity lately? Palm oil. Biofuels that result in deforestation, water loss, and for that matter the release of more carbon are not helping.
And by the way, I can haul as much in my Prius Hybrid as I could in my last SUV.
Unfortunatly I have yet to see a good substitute for oil that is effecient, cost effective, and ecologically sound. Hopefully that day will come, but it is irrational to do more damage to the environment and us trying to protect it.
Boxlock,
Carbon fiber and other composites can make a stronger, more energy absorbing (safer) vehicle than steel. It’s done by proper design and choice of materials.
Some C-FRP thermoplastics have very high energy absorbtion.
Although not cost effective
Any ideas on a strong fuel source to replace oil Cosmos? In developemental stages of course.
cosmos,
You are absolutely correct, carbon fiber and properly done composites can in fact be considerable lighter weight and stronger than conventional steel construction. Many times in limited planes or vectors of force though. Now if it can just be done within a reasonable cost relationship to steel bodies and frames we’ll be in business with them. And there was never any argument about the energy absorption capabilities of properly designed thermoplastics, they’re everywhere.
Interesting how all of us who know what this Ethanol fiasco was all about, are turning out to be correct. Guess we ain’t as dumb as some think.
Kfrmgrl, being as California is about 90% desert, I’m not surprised. Lake Mead is HUGE, but there’s only so much to go around. Watch the exodus when water starts costing as much as gas. During one drought I went through out there, the water district started rationing. Then raised the price of water because they couldn’t pay the dividends. Damned if you do/damned if you don’t state. I don’t envy Arnie one bit.
ANTI
Posted February 12, 2008 at 7:46 pm | Permalink
Any ideas on a strong fuel source to replace oil Cosmos? In developemental stages of course.
Pond scum not only treats water, the fat content out produces any other current attempt at a bio-fuel.
We would need “Ocean Scum”. Pond Scum just won’t meet the needs of the world.
Could effluent lagoons be used for the scum instead of using ground water. Maybe that is what you meant..
I have worked in the Ag waste water business and have seen lagoon gas used for power in dairies and swine facilities. It works rather well, just not practical in most situations, but as cost lower and producers become more independent the use will spread
1/10th the land mass of New Mexico of pond scum will fuel the US for a year. Wiffed on that one scooter.
And it treats water closer to potable… Win win brother. Reap the whirl wind…
Google it.
oh, wait, you were confused. Not the gas produced, but the actual scum. Very high fat content that can be converted to bio-fuel.
Gas or fat produced from this is a better long term sollution because we will have waste water to treat forever. And adaptations to the existing lagoons would be cheaper than building grain-cellulose based plants. I can see this as a more viable sollution in conjuntion with waste oil bio-diesel.
I am in favor of resolving the problems we already have instead of creating new ones. Treating our waste problems while receiving a benefit is a common sense approach.
Pond scum is an interim solution and possibly a long term solution to the trucking industry. I am quite sure that Honda or Toyota will deliver a Hydrogen solution in the very near future.
GM has full size trucks that will deliver 37-42 MPG highway at the present moment. Unfortunately, big oil isn’t ready for that. So the few trucks on the road that have produced said mileage, have their ‘chips’ removed and replaced with ‘current’ chips that get 14-16 mpg hwy.
Great economy we have…
Boxlock posted February 12, 2008 at 7:53 pm
“And there was never any argument about the energy absorption capabilities of properly designed thermoplastics, they’re everywhere.”
Actually, there was an “argument”…
Boxlock posted at 4:43 pm that state of art cars, using carbon fiber and thermoplastics, and getting 4+ times normal mpg, were unsafe.
“Well duhhh…you can’t haul anything in those vehicles, and if you ride in them they can get you killed. Grow up and try and live in a world of reasonable practicality instead of your pseudo-scientific dream world.”
Or did Boxlock mean the vehicles that get twice the normal mpg, by lowering aero drag, and use off-the-shelf components — without reducing safety?
Carbon fiber will become cheaper, with new techniques, and economies of scale.
cosmos,
Read what I wrote again please before spouting off in your typical juvenile, knee jerk, falsely placed self confident manor. I said in respect to the comment of “if you ride in them they can get you killed” that composites can be strong, BUT “Many times in limited planes or vectors of force”. They can be very strong in the plane they are designed to be strong and energy absorbing in but not in other planes or vectors. Designing them to be strong in multiple planes is difficult and very costly, and heavier too.
Plus the laws of physics dictate, and even you can’t change this cosmos in spite of what you may think of yourself, that an impact of a heavy vehicle with a light one results in a bad outcome for those in the light vehicle.
For now, I’ll stick with my heavier, steel bodied vehicle. As I said, you do as you like, see ya on the street.
Boxlock,
Steel is also strong in “limited planes or vectors of force”. That’s why they put beams inside doors.
Again, car safety depends on design, not weight. Enclose the passengers in a strong compartment, and use energy absorbing sections to protect it.
Steel and weight do not guarantee safety.
There are heavy SUV’s with weak roofs that collapse in a roll-over… and a high CG, plus poor suspension design that increase the chance of roll-overs.
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