The divide on the debate about access to abortion records was on display on Thursday’s Opinion pages.
On one side, Cheryl Sullenger of Operation Rescue, noting that all patient-identifying information is redacted from the records, argued: “The stall tactic of filing with the Supreme Court on privacy issues that is being employed by Tiller’s lawyers, and now by the attorney general, is only meant to manipulate and scare the public with falsehoods, while attempting to block important evidence from a legally convened grand jury that could prove Tiller has been doing illegal abortions for years.â€
On the other side, Vickie Sandell Stangl said that the court must decide whether patients “deserve to have their personal medical information rifled through by strangers, always with the threat that anti-abortion extremists could also get their hands on this information.†And as to whether these concerns are phony, she said: “Last time a grand jury investigated Tiller, details of the evidence were leaked to Operation Rescue, one of the groups behind this latest grand jury investigation. Furthermore, during former Attorney General Phill Kline’s investigation, details of women’s abortions ended up being discussed on the Fox News program ‘The O’Reilly Factor.’â€
125 Comments
The clinics need to adopt a “Jane Doe” system where, from the time a woman calls for an appointment for her abortion, she is assigned a number and that number is used as her ID from there on and no real name is ever given. Then the religious nutcases would have nothing to get their hands on.
Evidently, the Kansas Supreme Court is concerned enough about medical privacy and the safeguards against privacy being abused by the anti-choice zealots that they are reviewing all of this information before letting any more discovery go forward. That is their job. To make sure EVERYONE is following the law, and NO innocent patient is going to thrown to the wolves. If the protections offered by Judge Buchanan who presides over the Sedg Cty grand jury are inadequate, then the Supreme Court will tell him so, and he will respond by imposing greater protections, and by following the Supreme Ct’s mandate. The rule of law will prevail.
If you don’t want an abortion, don’t have one. Outside that? mind your own business.
Unfortunately, the Right to Life people are stalkers, plain and simple.
They photograph women entering and leaving, they get license plate #’s and they follow the women to where they live/are staying.
Isn’t stalking a crime nowadays?
A woman, her doctor, and her God.
In the bigger picture, it is quite disturbing how investigation by Governmental agencies are using the tactic of “going on fishing expeditions“. Gathering information using a all encompassing method, in the past this was never an acceptable practice in the U.S. Its the same as if the Police were to go house to house kicking in every door and searching each and every residence. The argument that “well if you have nothing to hide than why should you mind”. Is hardly a justification for suspending over two hundred years of the rule of law.
The rules of Privacy have there very foundations from the beginning of this nation and were important enough to be addressed in the Constitution. If there is grounds for suspension of these rights it is established that the State shall have a vested interest warranting those suspensions. But there has to be grounds and not a mere suspicions or wishful thinking.
History Lesson:
“We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life…”
-Thomas Jefferson,
The Unaminous Declaration of the United States of America
As intended by the document authenticating American independence, we claim the right to life solely from the Creator.
Tiller knows he has performed illegal abortions. Otherwise, he wouldn’t be fighting so hard and put up so many legal obstacles to prevent being investigated.
Any Physician that is resistant to oversight has some explaining to do.
It’s almost as if FISA is a distraction; the real aim of the George WMD Bush administration is to quash the basic right of privacy.
Because it is the issue of privacy on which the Roe v. Wade decision is based.
The Republic Party resembles a bunch of small town gossips, intent on knowing everybody else’s business and judging people.
Reproductive rights should be an issue of a woman, her doctor, and her god. Not her neighbors.
As intended by the document authenticating American independence, we claim the right to life solely from the Creator.
And, of course, there were no abortions during Thomas Jefferson’s time. (Is the sarcasm in that clear enough for you?) Get real. You’re grasping at straws. There’s nothing in the Declaration of Independence about abortion or anything remotely akin to it. It was a list of grievances about England’s treatment of its people and the newly formed United States.
It used to be that men left women alone to make their own decisions on these matters. In fact, they didn’t want to know about them. What’s wrong? Losing your grip on your dominance? Try keeping your pants zipped, and you won’t have to worry about the outcome.
Privacy stops where crime begins.
Privacy is not a wall of secrecy for physicians to hide behind.
Let the Grand Jury do its job and be done with the investigation.
Medical reviews of records are done all the time with information with records redacted of privacy information.
All one has to do is visit a medical journal, attend a medical seminar or attend a medical conference and they will find patient cases are discussed in great detail because privacy information has been redacted.
There are precedents, the reasons for resistance is an obvious attempt to avoid prosecution.
All names and identifying information has or would be redacted, so the medical identities are completely unknown. Those women’s identities are safe.
This is nothing more than a blatant attempt by our court, successful so far, to protect a man that is taking viable life and breaking the law. Eventually this will be recognized, and when that day arrives those protecting this killer will pay a price also.
In my opinion, every grand jury is an abomination and unconstitutional.
Rights of the accused are ignored, the prosecutor can minipulate evidence. It’s not just a cliche: any grand jury can indict a ham sandwich.
But the current case is an abuse of even traditional and accepted grand jury procedure.
At least in a traditional grand jury the prosecutor provides evidence of a crime and the connection between that crime and an accused person.
This grand jury flips the equation: It’s got an alleged criminal and seeks to find a crime in there somewhere.
Suppose I were to target you, “Regular,” and deny you any rights to defend yourself while I have all access to any and every aspect of your life as I search for a crime. Maybe you claimed more than you really gave to your church in 1975. Or you drove 67 mph back in ‘81 when the speed limit was 55. With the power of a grand jury, I can break into your house and determine if you ripped the label off you mattress.
Bingo! You’re a “repeat offender,” “three strikes and you’re out” and it’s life in prison!
Kafka was an optimist.
Poor analogy MonkeyHawk,
Any traffic violations are a matter of public record and easily accessed.
But please continue with your arm flailing.
“In my opinion, every grand jury is an abomination and unconstitutional.”
—–
I bet Scooter and Martha agree with you.
You’re too short, “Regular” –
Everything I say goes over your head.
“And, of course, there were no abortions during Thomas Jefferson’s time”
-RD
And was society worse off or better as a consequence?
I understand that you are highly aggravated by such a belief that we do not point to any person or government for our right to life. But such a belief is paramount to the founding of America and to a society that ensures that all life is perpetually protected.
This governing philosophy as clearly stated in the Declaration of Independence DOES have a clear ramification on what the legality of abortion should be based upon American principles.
If we permit our government and popular opinion to determine who has the right to life and who does not, no right to life for any person is guaranteed.
“rfl” posits –
“…a belief paramount to the founding of America and to a society that ensures that all life is perpetually protected.
“This governing philosophy as clearly stated in the Declaration of Independence DOES have a clear ramification on what the legality of abortion should be based upon American principles.
The Declaration of Independence, while important in America’s history, is not a document for governance. In fact, it was produced by a non-governing body some thirteen years before the Constitution of the United States of America created this government.
It’s an important document in American heritage, but has no more basis in constitutional law than Martin Luther King’s “Letter from the Birmingham Jail,” or Woody Guthrie’s “This Land is Your Land.”
Tiller is blowing smoke, trying to hide the fact that he’s broken the law and shielded rapists. If your 13 year old daughter was being raped by an adult, would you want Tiller to perform an abortion without your knowledge and shield the rapist by not reporting the crime?
The woman has the right to her own decisions and to her own body. This is settled. There should be no question about it.
These records are NOT safe, we’ve already found how Phill KKKline obtained the names of the women in the redacted records.
Monkey is right, this witchhunt is bogus and unfair. It’s not that Tiller is against regulation and oversight, but how he’s been a target from extremists who think a fetus is more important than the woman carrying it.
Mom of 5 do you NOT read what has happened in the past? He was investigated for not reporting, and he DID report crimes EVERY TIME.
That’s no longer an issue, please keep up. OR folks were fit to be tied that the man was truly following the law. Aww.
Political_mama,
By all means be in control of your own body and life, that’s exactly what you and all should be doing, no one whats anything to do with a women’s control of their own live and body. But do not take (kill) the viable life of another living person for your own convenience. And the vast majority of these abortions are for exactly that reason. No one has a right or privilege to do that either given from God or from the law if that life is viable. Tiller is killing these babies don’t you understand that.
This governing philosophy as clearly stated in the Declaration of Independence DOES have a clear ramification on what the legality of abortion should be based upon American principles.
Only in your dreams, rfl.
Did not God give man (and woman) free will? Do you believe our laws should trump God?
Boxlock,
When you become pregnant, you can make those decisions you deny women.
This isn’t about abortion rights, it’s about authorites having oversight of the medical profession…I don’t see any outrage over the Hayville doctor currently in jail for mismanaging his patients…where’s the outcry from all of you defending Tiller? Tiller’s patient’s records should subject to review like any other’s whose doctor is being investigated for alleged illegal activity.
If Tiller has nothing to hide, then there is nothing to be upset about. Tiller’s patients will not be revealed, just like ANY doctor who is being investigated. He’s not the first doctor being held to established standards of practice and hopefully he won’t be the last.
Why should he be above the law? He has to be held accountable like any other doctor.
The way you guys talk about Tiller, it’s as though his practice should be back alley instead of out in the light of day. I don’t agree with those who take pictures of women entering the clinic..that’s invasion of privacy and harrassment, and those who stoop to that sort of activity are wrong. But an abortion clinics should be treated the same way as ANY clinic and should be held to the same standards. Just because it is an abortion clinic, it should not be subject to special privileges.
The home health agency I work for is subject to the same scrutiny every year, so are all the hospitals and clinics…and if there is even a hint of wrong doing, the government and overseeing boards will swoop down like crows on junebugs…and the public shouldn’t want it any other way.
“This governing philosophy as clearly stated in the Declaration of Independence DOES have a clear ramification on what the legality of abortion should be based upon American principles.”
-rfl
“The Declaration of Independence, while important in America’s history, is not a document for governance. In fact, it was produced by a non-governing body some thirteen years before the Constitution of the United States of America created this government.”
-Monkeyhawk
So Monkeyhawk concedes that the first document ever to proclaim America’s right to govern themselves as nation, though a mere artifact of American heritage, does clearly state that all people receive their rights to life from the Creator and not from governments and other people.
He tacitly concedes that this non governing document implies a philosophy that underminds the legality of abortion.
Any logical human being would then conclude, that the resulting governing documents of America would include laws consistent with the philosophy ingrained in the document that originally articulated its intent to exist.
Therefore, it was the intent of the founding fathers, who all signed the Declaration of Independence, to protect the right to life of all people based on the assumption that the Creator is the originator of those rights.
Such protection is embodied in the law enacted against murder. Since unborn children would be deemed alive using common medical parameters during most abortions, abortion should be classified as murder in the United States no matter what popular opinion, your doctor or your mother believes.
What this is about, as usual, is folks with nose trouble.
Did not God give man (and woman) free will?
-RD
Free will to murder?
No, he did not.
When “God” weighs in orally on the matter rtl?
I’ll give him a hearing.
He’s also invited…strike that….challenged to prove his existence to me.
This isn’t about abortion rights, it’s about medical professionals following the law….why are you guys getting so off track with the same old debate that no one is going to change their mind about anyway?
Off to work…
RDPosted February 29, 2008 at 9:11 am |
“Boxlock,
When you become pregnant, you can make those decisions you deny women.”
RD, take your emphasis off of self for once and consider the life of the viable baby that is being killed. Who is looking out for that life?
Abortion is one of the most self-centered acts imaginable, (forgivable by the way), taken at the expense of another’s very life. It’s the ending of that person’s very existence at the hand of the mother. It is imposing one’s will on another to the extent of ending their life. That women does not just become no longer a mother, she becomes the mother of a dead baby who’s life she elected to end, and that will never change throughout her life, even if she does not recognize that at the time.
As Mary Caruso wisely points out, and who may or may not have similar views on abortion, said above, this topic really is not about abortion but about prudent, legal medical oversight and the very likely violation of the law.
Free will to murder?
No, he did not.
Check your Bible on that. If no free will, then God makes you murder or lie or blaspheme or any other thing listed in the Ten Commandments. If no free will, then there is no sin.
Question:
Who brought up the charges against the Haysville doctor (Schneider?)? Was it patients or the families of patients? Or was it an “oversight group”, similar to OR? I’m asking because I don’t know and haven’t followed it that closely.
…and that will never change throughout her life, even if she does not recognize that at the time.
That’s right, Boxlock. And if the decision was made by the mother to not abort, are you going to be there with a helping hand if and when she might need it?
Didn’t think so. Yet you feel you can make that decision for her.
As mentioned more than once above, a woman, her doctor, and her God. And just to really make it interesting, add to the end of that “whatever you conceive Him (or Her) to be.” ;)
RD,
With all due respect, this is not about a mother’s right to choose.
This is about whether a Physician has followed the law in the State of Kansas.
Or is it you want to exempt Tiller from being reviewed of any State law?
Nose trouble….
RD,
Based on your desire to justify abortion,
You are confusing free will with the moral right to do whatever your will wants to do.
We have free will to take life from another human being if we choose to. That does not make it right in God’s eyes or our government’s. Either way, your logic is flawed.
Abortion is not a legal or moral matter, it is a medical procedure that should be confined twix a woman and her doctor. Full stop, period, end of discussion……
Medical Licenses are granted by the State Sursum and the practice or utilization of skills from said licenses are under the purview of the State that issued them.
End of story.
I’m not justifying anything, rfl. The Supreme Court ruled in the case of abortion, determining it on the basis of a woman’s privacy. And since that’s what this thread is about, let’s get back to it.
Who brought up or filed the charges in the case of the Haysville doctor? Anyone know?
The question asked was, Are abortion privacy concerns phony or real?
Considering information was shared with O’Reilly and adding to it the photos taken by OR and posted on their website, concerns are real. Do I believe my medical records should be covered under privacy? You bet I do.
In this case,
O’Reilly is irrelevant.
Phill Kline is irrelevant.
The Grand Jury has requested Medical Records to review whether or not Dr. Tiller has adhered to Kansas Law as defined.
It’s simple, it really is.
Tiller’s attorneys should be charged with obstruction of justice and censured if they continue further.
RD, IIRC, the criminal charges against Dr. Schneider and his wife were brought by the federal government resulting from an investigation into the prescription practices of the clinic in Haysville.
Regular, one issue which involves the current Grand Jury investigation, and which is under review by the Kansas Supreme Court, is whether a Grand Jury has the legal power to issue a subpoena duces tecum, the type of subpoena issued by the Grand Jury to try to obtain the records in question. While Grand Juries have subpoena power to compel attendance of witnesses, this does not include in and of itself the power to issue a duces tecum subpoena.
Vaughn Tolle,
Isn’t it convenient that the authority to issue subpoenas has only come up with this particular case?
Can you tell me in past cases where records were requested by subpoena by Grand Juries and no objections were raised?
I think the term witness may fall into a broad category where supporting documents that corroborate one way or the other, the testimony of the witness.
Unless you are stating that no documents of any kind are allowed into a Grand Jury inquiry?
The objection appears to me, to be a tactic of trying to separate wheat from chaff, stating that that neither is a component of the other.
Subpoenaing a witness without documentation or records to entertain the evaluation by a Grand Jury appears to me to be a hollow fruit that will bear no seeds of justice.
Tip of the iceberg, VT. Someone had to raise the concern. I obviously worded my question wrong. I plead too many sneezes in a five minute period. :)
IIRC, this isn’t the first time the good doctor (and I use the term loosely) has been shut down for investigation. This has actually been going on for some time.
I’m just curious as to what or who brought this doctor’s prescription practices to the attention of the government. I admit to not knowing the ins and outs of government oversight when it comes to prescriptions.
Since its illegal to look up womens skirts in stores dresing rooms why is it OK for some other group of strangers to see whats in their medical records. These are just as personal. Bull S**t is just raw fertilizer and smells just as bad! This is a question of individual, personal rights to privacy. Or maybe we should bring back the “dunking stool” or waterboarding for this witch hunt and really get some action!
RD,
I imagine whoever it is that monitors morbidity and mortality reports for Kansas had alarms go up when they found that deaths of patients from one doctor was exceedingly high.
This is one case where oversight is absolutely necessary in discovering evidence of malpractice and medicolegal misconduct when practicing medicine under the State laws.
RD, Posted February 29, 2008 at 9:53 am
“That’s right, Boxlock. And if the decision was made by the mother to not abort, are you going to be there with a helping hand if and when she might need it?
Didn’t think so. Yet you feel you can make that decision for her.”
RD, you are now making assumptions on your own about me for the sake of your argument, that’s a cheap argument.
Are you saying that if someone doesn’t want to take responsibility in their own life they can simply decide to end another’s life?
We still remain off topic….the topic is; does the medical profession remain above the law and above scrutiny.
Regular, I cannot, as Grand Jury proceedings in Kansas are rare, and are to be secret. The issue was raised in this case, and as the proceedings before the Supreme Court are, in part at least, public record.
Compelling attendance of a witness to testify before a Grand Jury or in any court proceeding does not include the right to compel the witness to bring documents with him/her. Thus, a subpoena to compel attendance of a witness is different from a subpoena duces tecum, which commands the witness to bring records and documents with him/her.
Is this investigation the “Titanic”? When is it finally going to sink?
Regular
Posted February 29, 2008 at 7:50 am | Permalink
Tiller knows he has performed illegal abortions. Otherwise, he wouldn’t be fighting so hard and put up so many legal obstacles to prevent being investigated.
Any Physician that is resistant to oversight has some explaining to do.
I must respectfully disagree. As a doctor, it is his position to be an advocate for his patients when necessary, and to protect their privacy. What person would go to ANY doctor that would turn over their files easily. And just because he does not want a bunch of pro-life zealots going through his records doesn’t mean that he is resistant to oversight. And I am surprised Regular, you have consistently been pro-choice on these threads. That was the one point that surprised me about you, but I appreciated as a woman.
Vaughn Tolle, Posted February 29, 2008 at 10:50 am
“Compelling attendance of a witness to testify before a Grand Jury or in any court proceeding does not include the right to compel the witness to bring documents with him/her. Thus, a subpoena to compel attendance of a witness is different from a subpoena duces tecum, which commands the witness to bring records and documents with him/her.”
Would you prefer that the patients who’s medical records are being requested by the grand jury, with names redacted, be personally served with a subpoena to compel attendance?
Requesting records is the least intrusive way of finding if the law has been broken.
Seriously, what is he being accused of and what is the evidence they have. From what I understand the prosecutor believes that Tiller had a conflict of interest with the second doctor doing referrals. If that is the charge, why do they need the medical records? What evidence do they have of this in the first place? And Mary, having worked with clients that went to Dr. Schneider for pain management, I was always concerned about his practice, and wondered how he was getting away with prescribing methodone to someone with a documented drug history.
Boxlock, no, I would not. There is, however, a legitimate question that exists as to the legal, statutory power of a Grand Jury empaneled due to petition to issue a subpoena duces tecum as a part of its proceedings. When the issue of the privacy of the records sought by the Grand Jury arose some time ago, I posted that using the medical records was the better way.
BTW Kansas, if Jodi’s law passes, those people could be arrested for taking pictures of the women outside the clinic. What they’re trying to do is change the stalking law so that if there is just 2 reports of stalking, whether from the same person or 2 people, about the same person, they can be arrested. So it would only take 2 women filing charges against the person taking pictures of them, and poof, they could be arrested.
I’m still pro-choice TDT.
What I don’t like is a justice system perverted to the point it becomes ineffective.
One of the duties of a lawyer is to put forth motions on behalf of a client.
One of the duties of a Judge/Court/Supreme Court is to determine whether motions filed have become an affront in preventing the State to perform its duty to the people.
If a woman wants to get an abortion as described under the laws of the State of Kansas, I shall not impede such and never have.
However, if a physician providing said abortions is unwilling to provide expeditious oversight for his medical practices, then I have strong objections.
I would expect the same oversight be exercised on a Psychiatric Physician, if there were suspicions of malpractice or abuse.
Oversight legislation must have teeth to be effective. Perhaps the next set of standards incorporated into law will not be so lenient in the discovery stage of legal oversight.
I dunno, but it appears to be headed in that direction.
The status of the motion for appeal has been heard, yet undetermined.
However it comes out, I must accept the ruling.
It is how our system works.
“rfl” contributes –
“So Monkeyhawk concedes that the first document ever to proclaim America’s right to govern themselves as nation, though a mere artifact of American heritage, does clearly state that all people receive their rights to life from the Creator and not from governments and other people.”
It was a document of rebellion, not of governance.
It may be inspiring. It may have roused the rabble to rise up against the British. But as a document of law it’s the equal of last Thursday’s letter to the editor.
When the writing of the Constitution came down to brass tacks, the Founding Fathers specifically and obviously refused to put any theology or God-ness into the document.
“He tacitly [which means, literally, "he dod not say it at all] concedes that this non governing document implies a philosophy that underminds the legality of abortion.
I can only assume you meant to use the word “undermine” here. Not that it makes any more sense that way than the way you posted it.
Somehow I missed all reports of the anti-abortion debate that took place during the Continental Congress’ deliberations in 1776.
Give me a reference and I’ll get back to you on this one.
“Any logical human being would then conclude, that the resulting governing documents of America would include laws consistent with the philosophy ingrained in the document that originally articulated its intent to exist.
Hmmm. “…that all men are created equal,” from the Declaration of Independence turned into black men being 3/5ths of a white man in the Constitution. I guess the Founding Fathers gave themselves a little wiggle room, huh?
That’s the difference between a document of rebellion and a document of governance.
Any citation you make of the Declaration of Independence does not relate unless it subsequently was codified in the Constitutuion, as ammended.
“Therefore, it was the intent of the founding fathers, who all signed the Declaration of Independence, to protect the right to life of all people based on the assumption that the Creator is the originator of those rights.
Different people wrote the Declaration and the Constitution. “The Founding Fathers” wasn’t some kind of star chamber. And “the Founding Fathers” didn’t ratify the Constitution, that was an act of the individual states.
[snip]
“…abortion should be classified as murder in the United States no matter what popular opinion, your doctor or your mother believes.
Okay, it’s clear. You want Tiller to go to the chair. But if “abortion should be classified as murder,” the woman who seeks (aids and abets?) that “murder” is guilty of a capital crime. So you’re gonna execute women who seek an abortion?
Go for it, “rfl!”
Get honest and advocate what you really believe!
The Legislature is in session and you’ve probably got the votes to make abortion a capital crime and put thousands of desperate women to death because they want control over their bodies.
Go for it.
#
TDT
Posted February 29, 2008 at 11:07 am | Permalink
BTW Kansas, if Jodi’s law passes, those people could be arrested for taking pictures of the women outside the clinic. What they’re trying to do is change the stalking law so that if there is just 2 reports of stalking, whether from the same person or 2 people, about the same person, they can be arrested. So it would only take 2 women filing charges against the person taking pictures of them, and poof, they could be arrested.
=================================
I don’t disagree with the premise of Jodi’s law.
I think harassing pregnant women is beyond the pale.
There is nothing to be gained from photographing pregnant women seeking medical procedure other than harassment.
If it were me, I would suggest confiscating the cameras or video equipment as well.
Regular
Posted February 29, 2008 at 9:55 am | Permalink
RD,
With all due respect, this is not about a mother’s right to choose.
This is about whether a Physician has followed the law in the State of Kansas.
Or is it you want to exempt Tiller from being reviewed of any State law?
Regular, this is about whether OR and the prosecutor are stepping over the line in their zeal to shut down Tiller. It would be different if it was an organization other the the crazy OR people trying to get these charges to stick.
#
Vaughn Tolle
Posted February 29, 2008 at 10:50 am | Permalink
Regular, I cannot, as Grand Jury proceedings in Kansas are rare, and are to be secret. The issue was raised in this case, and as the proceedings before the Supreme Court are, in part at least, public record.
Compelling attendance of a witness to testify before a Grand Jury or in any court proceeding does not include the right to compel the witness to bring documents with him/her. Thus, a subpoena to compel attendance of a witness is different from a subpoena duces tecum, which commands the witness to bring records and documents with him/her.
——————-
Understood Vaughn.
However, my analogy that Grand Juries be akin to hollow fruit still stands if records accompanying witness via subpoenas is denied.
We still remain off topic….the topic is; does the medical profession remain above the law and above scrutiny.
Gee, I could’ve sworn the title of this thread was Are abortion privacy concerns phony or real? Whatever. I believe you were the one who posted “to protect a man that is taking viable life and breaking the law.” So let’s get down to the law, now that you’ve judged, determined, and are ready to hang for breaking what law? Maybe you should read the thread title again?
#
TDT
Posted February 29, 2008 at 11:15 am | Permalink
Regular
Posted February 29, 2008 at 9:55 am | Permalink
RD,
With all due respect, this is not about a mother’s right to choose.
This is about whether a Physician has followed the law in the State of Kansas.
Or is it you want to exempt Tiller from being reviewed of any State law?
Regular, this is about whether OR and the prosecutor are stepping over the line in their zeal to shut down Tiller. It would be different if it was an organization other the the crazy OR people trying to get these charges to stick.
———————-
I disagree.
O R or prosecutors are not the ones subpoenaed before the Grand Jury to bring forth relevant testimony on their behalf.
With all due respect, this is not about a mother’s right to choose.
Then why is it what everyone seems to be making it? Tell ya what. I’ll stop if everyone else does. Fair enough?
Here RD, look at this:
http://www.kake.com/news/headlines/12663871.html
“The indictment includes the names of 56 patients who died as the result of accidental prescription drug overdoses.”
Regular – But they are the ones that constantly harrass Tiller by bringing up charges.
Regular
Posted February 29, 2008 at 7:50 am | Permalink
Tiller knows he has performed illegal abortions. Otherwise, he wouldn’t be fighting so hard and put up so many legal obstacles to prevent being investigated.
Any Physician that is resistant to oversight has some explaining to do.
Is that true of Cheney’s behind close door meetings with oil and energy executives also?
Can you say the same about the the holders of Concealed carry permits.
Shouldn’t the public be privy to that information too?
#
WonderingOutLoud
Posted February 29, 2008 at 11:23 am | Permalink
Regular
Posted February 29, 2008 at 7:50 am | Permalink
Tiller knows he has performed illegal abortions. Otherwise, he wouldn’t be fighting so hard and put up so many legal obstacles to prevent being investigated.
Any Physician that is resistant to oversight has some explaining to do.
Is that true of Cheney’s behind close door meetings with oil and energy executives also?
Can you say the same about the the holders of Concealed carry permits.
Shouldn’t the public be privy to that information too?
———————————
I don’t know what the law says about permitting public knowledge of “conceal and carry” documents being opened for public scrutiny.
I don’t know of any documents that outline what went on behind Cheney’s closed door meetings. It appears to me, that any guesses to what went on is speculation and encourages fluffy conspiracy theories.
Not sure what your extremely broad examples have to do with this thread, but your tinfoil is getting some corrosion on it. May I suggest some appropriate lubricant, either philosophical or motor oil grade quality.
#
TDT
Posted February 29, 2008 at 11:22 am | Permalink
Regular – But they are the ones that constantly harrass Tiller by bringing up charges.
————————-
So, Tiller can counter sue if he wishes, but that’s another case now isn’t it?
Really TDT, the arm flailing is becoming a bit too much. Stick to the case at hand.
What I don’t like is a justice system perverted to the point it becomes ineffective.
One of the duties of a lawyer is to put forth motions on behalf of a client.
Okay. I don’t disagree. But what OR is doing is basically harrassment that has been going on for years. If Tiller wasn’t in Wichita, they’d go somewhere else and harrass someone else. That’s what they do.
What bothers me, and I may have this wrong, is that they suspect misdoing, yet they have no proof, so they petition the court to find if there is or is not proof. Isn’t that a bit backwards?
It appears to me, that any guesses to what went on is speculation and encourages fluffy conspiracy theories.
Or fishing expeditions when it comes to Tiller?
Regular – Nice try at condescension but I believe it is the point. How many times does he have to defend himself? He is legally allowed to perform abortions, even late-term abortions. OR doesn’t like it, so they harrass constantly. See, the thing is that OR has realized that they don’t have to get Roe v. Wade overturned. All they have to do is harrass the few remaining doctors willing to do abortions enough so that they will stop. Eventually, even with abortions being legal, women will not be able to find a doctor willing to perform them. That is the concern for me.
TDT and RD,
Each time a physician establishes contact with a patient, creates a medical record, performs a procedure; he/she is subject to the State laws defining acceptable medical practices.
This has become reasonably standardized under the guise of both University practices in teaching medicolegal to Physicians and of course the various States regarding the licensing of said physicians.
Operation Rescue, can be and if in the eyes of the current Judicial system, be assessed as inhibiting the proper medical care of patients be tested in a court of law.
However, the conduct of Operation Rescue, is not currently before the Grand Jury being discussed.
Throwing water on smoke does not address the issue whether or not there is an ignition source. It merely confounds the problem.
It’s arm flailing that’s irrelevant to the matter at hand.
Try that in a court of law and you will get the gavel for irrelevant discourse.
Stick to the assignment.
Pardon me, while I bow out of the discussion. I have to go test the medicolegal practices of my own physican in 2 hours and need to remove certain oils and scents from my body through judicious use of soap and water. :)
I just want to add to this discussion that’s not going much of anywhere IMHO that this is the second time a Grand Jury has been empaneled by petition to investigate Dr. Tiller. The first, IIRC, found some violations of the reporting statutes that were eventually dismissed. That did not satisfy those who are most sure that there are unlawful abortions being performed, thus the second petition and Grand Jury.
RD, that which you ask is perhaps a flaw in the ability under Kansas statutes of a Grand Jury to be empaneled upon petition. It should be recalled that a purpose of any Grand Jury is to determine if there exists enough evidence to hand up an indictment, which, in and of itself has an investigative function inherent therein; however, in states that normally use the Grand Jury process for the bringing of criminal charges, the evidence gathered by law enforcement, etc., is presented to the Grand Jury. In this case, where the Grand Jury is empaneled by citizen petition, there is no existing body of information, data, evidence resulting from such preliminary investigation by law enforcement or prosecutors, thus the need for the Grand Jury to do its own gathering of such. This results in the potential for a Grand Jury to be empaneled if enough qualified persons sign a petition therefor, even if based upon suspicion.
rfl,
There weren’t abortions in Jefferson’s day? Of course there were! Abortion techniques have been around at least since the time of the ancient Egyptians. In colonial America, and for nearly a century after the Revolution, abortion (at least until quickening) was a matter for a woman to decide, and not the business of the state. Abortions weren’t prohibited in the U.S. until the Comstock blue laws of the 1870’s that also prohibited doing business on Sunday, nude paintings, blasphemy, profanity, the testimony of Jews and atheists in court and a host of other church-mandated morality laws. It took us nearly a century, but we got out from under “Comstockery,” and I gather it still grates on many preachers that the state won’t force people to comply with church teachings anymore.
“Hmmm. “…that all men are created equal,” from the Declaration of Independence turned into black men being 3/5ths of a white man in the Constitution.”
-Monkeyhawk
I am glad you brought up the slavery analogy with abortion. The same argument refuting the legalization of slavery can be applied equally to abortion. The philosophy outlined in the Declaration of Independence that all man were created equal resulted in the 13th Amendment some 4 score years later.
The more people realize that unborn children can be classified medically as alive, the more likely this nation will be compelled to correct the moral hazard of abortion just like we did slavery.
As to your last point:
1. Where did I say that I wanted to charge women and doctors who perform abortions with murder?
2. Do you know of a legal precedent for charging someone with a crime that does not exist?
3. So how do you read that I want to charge women with murder who commit abortion when abortion is currently legal?
4. How many times are you going to throw out this lame strawman argument?
Is Cheryl Sullenger willing to release the information surrounding her involvement in a terrorist attack and her time in prison? Isn’t it cute that a terrorist organization gets so much print in the pages of the Eagle.
Regular – I understand he is subject to the State laws defining acceptable medical practices. So if he has done something wrong, you would think the U.S. Atty would be filing charges as was done in the Schneider case. However, although they are going after Schneider, I have never heard of them going after Tiller, only OR. So as I pointed out above, this is just a round about way to end abortions from being safe and available by harrassing doctor’s out of practice!! If he is doing something wrong, then the U.S. Atty can raid his office like they did Schneider. But they don’t, and won’t, because this is a witchhunt!
“I don’t know of any documents that outline what went on behind Cheney’s closed door meetings. It appears to me, that any guesses to what went on is speculation and encourages fluffy conspiracy theories”.
Not sure what your extremely broad examples have to do with this thread, but your tinfoil is getting some corrosion on it. May I suggest some appropriate lubricant, either philosophical or motor oil grade quality.
Typical dance — name calling in lieu of answering the question — not the first time a topic here has been changed a bit .. you do it all the time — it goes to consistency in your application of laws and thinking.
Shouldn’t meetings between our elected officials and industry leaders be as transparent as you think the Drs records should be?
+…speculation and encourages fluffy conspiracy theories.” you seem to be doing the same with the Drs records —–
fluffy conspiracy theories —- in your dreams those discussions are not protected by any laws and shouild fall under the Open Meetings laws and Freedom of information Act — as you have said here many tomes before — if they have nothing to hide then they should reveal what was discussed —– but no you and your ilk continue to protect this administration to the detriment of the country —- not very American or patriotic it seems ………
If the government can use abortion as an excuse to secure the private medical records of Americans – then there is no stopping them from reviewing all our medical records for ANY reason.
Again I ask, if Tiller is doing something wrong that needs to be prosecuted, why did the Feds raid Schneider’s clinic instead of Tiller’s clinic? Let’s ponder that a moment.
#
TDT
Posted February 29, 2008 at 1:13 pm | Permalink
Regular – I understand he is subject to the State laws defining acceptable medical practices. So if he has done something wrong, you would think the U.S. Atty would be filing charges as was done in the Schneider case. However, although they are going after Schneider, I have never heard of them going after Tiller, only OR. So as I pointed out above, this is just a round about way to end abortions from being safe and available by harrassing doctor’s out of practice!! If he is doing something wrong, then the U.S. Atty can raid his office like they did Schneider. But they don’t, and won’t, because this is a witchhunt!
============================
TDT,
Your slippery slope “If tnens” leave much to be desired.
First, these are allegations and they are chargeable under Kansas law, not Federal law that I am aware.
Let’s be clear, the Schneider case has nothing to do with the Tiller case. Legally, medically, ethically, technically or logically. End of discussion on comparing blue dot and red dots, other than they are both dots.
This is an investigation, not a trial. No judgment will be made as to the legal disposition of Dr. Tiller without a trial occurring first.
With that said, since it is a Grand Jury investigation, no one will be denied medial access to the Tiller Clinic. There are no prohibitions made by any court than I’m aware and no modality paths have been established nor have they been restricted other than what the law has already inferred.
You were doing so well, for awhile.
#
TDT
Posted February 29, 2008 at 1:49 pm | Permalink
Again I ask, if Tiller is doing something wrong that needs to be prosecuted, why did the Feds raid Schneider’s clinic instead of Tiller’s clinic? Let’s ponder that a moment.
————————–
Explained before and understood by most.
What do you not understand about morbidity of patients due to specific Scheduled drugs prescribed by a physician that needs to be investigated?
deaths, you know – that end of life thing
Finally Regular, you said it!! This is a Grand Jury, not a trial. This is a group of people getting together to decide if there is enough evidence to take Tiller to trial. If there is not enough evidence presented to the Grand Jury, then it will not go to trial. If it goes to trial, then the records can be subpoenaed, but NOT BEFORE!!
Perhaps TDT, that’s what everyone is waiting on. :)
‘kay, truce.
Question?
How does a grand jury determine if there is evidence enough to indite, if they can’t view the evidence (redacted records)?
So, Reggie, how’d it go at the MD’s?
Did he up your meds?
outlander, that indeed is the question. As posted earlier (not just today, but much earlier on another thread), it would seem the Grand Jury would need access to the redacted records to make such a determination. However, subsequent to the above, the Kansas Supreme Court agreed to hear an appeal from Dr. Tiller’s attorneys which raised three points, one of which was the ability of a Grand Jury to issue a subpoena duces tecum(question later joined by the current Kansas AG).
If the Kansas Supreme Court determines that a Grand Jury has no such authority, then the records may not be subpoenaed by it. There may be other ways for the Grand Jury to do its job without the records, such as subpoenaing the patients to appear personally and testify, difficult to do if the identities of the patients are not otherwise known to the best of my knowledge but to Dr. Tiller and perhaps the consulting psychiatrist/other doctor. They (the doctors) could, I believe, be required to supply this information. Then, the circus would really begin, IMHO.
I am cognizant that Dr. Tiller’s attorneys raised the issue of patient privacy and one other, which I don’t recall right now; to me, the key issue is the duces tecum one.
Vaughn Tolle,
I’ve just read the statute on Grand Juries.
Not being an attorney, I can’t see anything obvious entries that prevents Grand Juries from getting documents by subpoena.
In fact, the implication for records in any form when demanded by subpoena appears to be the same as per procedures outlined in criminal court system.
Hearing set on this question by Kansas Supreme Court:
http://www.kansas.com/news/updates/story/327160.html
Four judges reviewing the evidence, abortion records and testimony presented in public before a joint Kansas legislative committee, and various other submitted evidence show that Tiller is guilty of illegal, post-viable abortions, coerced abortions, falsifying medical records, pharmaceutical misuses, and numerous other flagrant violations of safety standards and medical regulations and state laws. We will not have this obstruction of justice in the withholding of criminal evidence from the grand jury.
We will have criminal abortionists quacks and their killer staff indicted, prosecuted, convicted, and in prison. We will have justice.
Regular, the only statute which refers to a Grand Jury requesting the Clerk of the District Court to issue a subpoena I’ve found is K.S.A. 22-3008(1), which provides that the subpoena be issued to compel attendance of a witness for the purpose of providing testimony. There is nothing within said statute, or any of the other statutes concerning Grand Juries, which discusses a duces tecum subpoena.
KSA 22-3214 governs subpoenas to be issued in connection with a criminal trial. The difference that exists in this statute as contrasted to 22-3008 is the language that refers to such subpoenas shall be issued and served…in the same manner as civil cases. This language does not appear in 22-3008.
K.S.A. 60-245 governs the issuance of subpoenas in civil cases, and clearly contemplates duces tecum subpoenas.
The issue, therefore, is whether the provisions of K.S.A. 22-3008 authorize the Grand Jury to request a subpoena duces tecum be issued by the Clerk of the District Court in the absence of the language contained in 22-3214 which specifically refers to the issuance and service of subpoenas as in a civil case (K.S.A. 60-245). You have three hours.
It just floors me the arguments that the anti-women fetus fanatics. Even the bible argues for a lesser standing for fetuses. I don’t necessarily agree with a bible interpretation of anything, but if you’re going to use the bible as your argument, then there ya go.
This is not about oversight. We’ve had Tiller looked at with more of a fine toothed comb for everything. He’s been investigated over and over and over again, and it is harassment and it’s wrong. This is all done in an attempt to shut him down, and even parkay admits it.
Shutting him down will lead to back alley abortions, I promise you. So I find him to be a champion of women’s rights. For god’s sakes, the man has been shot even and keeps going.
As far as comparing him to the drug doctor, yeah I think the investigation of him is wrong too, I think the evidence is trumped, and this discourages real good doctors from addressing people’s real pain issues. The fed govt needs to back the hell off.
I thought Monkey’s post about God giving us free will was fabulous, nice call Monkey. way to use their arguments against them.
And it drives me crazy when someone says that they’re SAVING women from themselves. Screw you. Women have had abortions and NOT regretted them unless someone is shaming them into it.
It’s a heartwrenching decision no matter what. Stop demonizing them for what they felt was the best decision.
Well Vaughn Tolle,
If that is correct, then the Grand Jury will have no alternative than to subpoena the actual patients as witnesses.
That appears to be messier in many respects than examination of redacted records.
Tiller’s covering up something…that’s the only reason why he’s protesting so much. The privacy of his clients will be protected, just like they are in other cases where doctors are investigated. It’s the law and those who are in charge of the investigation have to respect that. And BTW, it’s not the OR people who are doing the investigation.
If he has nothing to hide, he has nothing to worry about…I believe he’s using his “concern” for the privacy of his clients as a facade to hide behind.
I always thought it was weird that someone climbed up on the roof of his clinic in the middle of the night and knew exactly where to place a hose to flood his clinic right after the allegations started. I personally know someone from the bomb squad who told me they believe he bombed his own clinic for the publicity and the insurance money (notice how they never found the perpetrator?)…funny how he bought the houses next door to his clinic and did the big expansion and remodel right after that incident. Afterall, he wanted to give his patients “a first class experience” (his words). What a sicko.
“Women have had abortions and NOT regretted them unless someone is shaming them into it.”
PM…maybe some women don’t regret their abortion, but I know plenty of women who do, and no one shamed them into feeling that way. Sometimes the fast and easy solution is the hardest one to live with.
“Fetus fanatics”? Just because I value ALL human life, that doesn’t make me a fanatic. When given the opportunity, I will always try to help a woman with an unwanted pregnancy find an alternative to abortion, because I never knew a woman who regretted NOT having an abortion.
Mary, you already said you hate Tiller for no good reason than you used to live near his office.
Now you say he’s covering up something. He tried protecting those records from those who said they were looking for kids who weren’t reported…and all of them were reported. so what was he hiding then? You are terribly bias against him. And yeah, I’m sure women regret that they had abortions, but ask them if they had it to do over again, if they would.
I suppose you think he arranged himself to be shot too huh? Afterall, how convenient it only hit his arms huh?
They had another abandoned baby today in the news. I’ll bet whoever birthed her regretted not having an abortion.
I can think of people who regretted not having an abortion.
Mary, there is nothing wrong with helping a woman who wants to keep her baby, who may not see any other way. It’s WRONG to force a woman to keep a pregnancy they emphatically do not want.
“I always thought it was weird that someone climbed up on the roof of his clinic in the middle of the night and knew exactly where to place a hose to flood his clinic right after the allegations started. I personally know someone from the bomb squad who told me they believe he bombed his own clinic for the publicity”
Ok now this is a stretch.
Tiller has more light on him than anyone. I am sure he is within the law.
There are too many people who would love to find ANYTHING to shut him down.
Abortion is legal. This is not going to change. What can change is the number of women making the choice.
And only economic and social welfare can help with that.
So the solution to abandoned and unwanted babies is to kill them?…makes sense….if you’re a Nazi.
I have lots of reasons why I don’t like Tiller, the biggest reason is that I think he’s a serial killer who has found a legal way to practice his art.
Anyone who can kill an almost full term, viable baby for frivilous reasons is immoral, and if that’s what the investigation reveals, then he should be punished to the full extent of the law.
And don’t worry, PM…if his clinic gets shut down, they’ll be another doctor to take over his practice…women will still be able to have abortion on demand, because it will remain a legal and lucritive business that someone else will take advantage of to get rich.
All I know JR is what I’ve been told by those who have been up close and personal and what was reported in the paper and on the news.
Do you really know women who regretted NOT having an abortion, PM? Care to give some examples? I’d really like to know because I’ve never met one yet. Just mostly the ones who regretted getting one.
I’m not in favor of forcing a woman to have a baby she doesn’t want…but I think we could do a lot more to give women viable options so they won’t feel forced to have an abortion.
Ideally, we would put much more effort into preventing unwanted pregnancies in the first place.
You are feeling and not thinking Mary.
And I respect your feelings.
But honestly, Dr. Tiller has been the object of an awful lot of scrutiny for a very long time.
Right wing ranter Bill O’Reilly sent goons to ambush the guy at a Quick for pete’s sake.
And any satisfaction he takes in his work is probably based in knowing that he helps maintain a womans right to choose. And he does it against an awful lot of pressure and even in the face of attacks on his life.
You know as I do Mary, not everyone who is “pro life” really cares about infants at all.
A great many have an anti woman or anti sex agenda. You must think what things would be like if such folks were to get THEIR way.
And besides, this CONTINUES to be the wrong way to reduce abortion.
I mean we live in a country where an entire political party would deny even basic care to its children.
THAT is where things must change.
I think Medicaid should pay women to get sterilized if they’re already raising children on the system. It would save everyone a lot of money and heartache. Children shouldn’t have to be raised in poverty.
In California there is a privately funded program that gives cash incentives to female drug addicts to get sterilized…I think it’s a wonderful idea and wish that more programs like that existed…but the ACLU had a screaming fit about the whole thing.
Mary Caruso
Posted February 29, 2008 at 9:10 pm | Permalink
I’m not in favor of forcing a woman to have a baby she doesn’t want…
Then why are you Pro Life? Your stated position is Pro Choice.
The Pro Lifers want to force women to have babies they don’t want, even at risk to their own lives.
Mary Caruso
Posted February 29, 2008 at 9:14 pm | Permalink
In California there is a privately funded program that gives cash incentives to female drug addicts to get sterilized…I think it’s a wonderful idea and wish that more programs like that existed
Now who is the Nazi?
Go to bed Mary, you’re off ypur rocker/kookoo!
I heard the other day that the state has developed a new assessment tool to screen kids for health wave that will knock about 50% of them out of the health care system. At the same time, they are not reducing, but adding full time positions. Their beurocracy is getting bigger while they’re cutting back services for children.
Kansas, you know not of what you speak…and you’re the one who needs to go to bed. To encourage women who can’t afford to have children not to get pregnant in the first place is a RESPONSIBLE thing…a Nazi would force someone to be sterilized and that’s not what I’m advocating. Nazis believed the way to deal with the unwanted ones is to exterminate them. What’s the difference between them and someone like Tiller (or you?)?
having said that…it’s been a long day and I have to get up early tomorrow..g’night.
Take a pill Mary your hormones are showing.
The difference between the NAZIS is that the women WANTED their babies. You cannot even compare a woman that wants her baby and be forced into abortion to providing an abortion to a woman who is desperate to have one.
You know this, and yet, you know what it would do to women, and you still want to close him down. You’re hypocritical Mary. You know full well no doctor is going to provide abortions outside of an abortion clinic. Hospitals were shut down from those services by the loons. It’s hard enough to get MORNING AFTER PILLS because of these loons. I agree, prevention is BEST, but when that fails, then what? There are TOO MANY WOMEN who are guilted and bringing kids into the world now who are abused and neglected…and yet you seem to think all we have to do is bring them and they’ll be loved. Don’t you watch the news?
And yeah, I do know women who regret not having an abortion.
You hate Tiller for a job you know has to be done. A lot of people say ‘I don’t know how you can take care of dying people’…you do it because you love making a difference in someone’s life. Can you not see how Tiller and staff can separate themselves? How many people do you think he’s had in his clinic who said “I never thought i’d have to have an abortion..I always was against it”. There is a reason why his patients aren’t suing him left and right. He’s HELPING them. And doing his job.
Political_mama
Posted February 29, 2008 at 11:20 pm
“There is a reason why his patients aren’t suing him left and right. He’s HELPING them.”
And because they don’t want the recognition a public lawsuit would bring. And also because Tiller has most ironclad liability release millions paid to attorney’s can buy.
Box,
“And also because Tiller has most ironclad liability release millions paid to attorney’s can buy.”
Gee, if that would work, you’d think OBGYN’s would buy them rather than go out of business. They can earn lots more than Tiller!
Strange how poor old Tiller didn’t have any problem releasing the NAMES, AGES, and ADDRESSES of his clients for fund-raising purposes and advertising the fact on his website.
I guess that’s better than having all those “strangers”(criminal investigators, court personnel) “rifling”(investigating, court filing) through legal documents of a medical nature. You know, what happens every day in almost every court in the world.
It’s too bad the big money abortionists have help from corrupt public officials in covering up their crimes from the public. Hopefully more facts will leak out.
As we’ve seen already, so few news outlets care to investigate or report their abortionist friends.
The big difference between you and me PM, is that you think of a developing baby as a pregnancy, not a human being with a beating heart. The Nazis killed those who weren’t wanted…Tiller kills human beings for the same reason. It’s wrong, wrong, wrong, even if there ARE some things worse than abortion..the fact that there is such a need for it is so wrong.
Right on, Dan…if he’s SO innocent, why is he trying so hard to hide his records…it has nothing to do with privacy.
Jed..Tiller makes plenty of money, probably more than most GYNs or OBs…he’s not into it out of the goodness of his heart.
Mary,
Check your facts! OBGYN’s are getting rarer by the minute due to lawsuits. It won’t be long before women have to abort because they’re priced out of having a baby delivered.
When my wife died, my father-in-law found the reciept for her delivery- $12.75, including the doctor’s fee ($3) and 5 days in the Huchinson Hospital. Today a smooth standard delivery costs about $2500; complications can increase that to upwards of 200 times. An abortion costs about $400, roughly the same as a years birth control.
Yeah, I know money shouldn’t be an issue, but when you don’t have enough, it always is!
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