Former Attorney General Phill Kline subpoenaed the La Quinta Inn on East Kellogg in 2005 for the names, address and telephone numbers of guests “who received a medical discount.†The subpoena also demanded information on guests who stayed in rooms reserved by George Tiller’s abortion clinic, and records of telephone calls placed to and from those rooms.
Kline’s office then matched this guest information with dates and details in abortion records, according to a document presented in Sedgwick County District Court last week by one of Tiller’s attorney.
Anti-abortion activists say not to worry about the privacy of abortion records because the patient names are blacked out. And not to worry that they have taken photos of women who visit the clinic, because they fuzz up the faces before posting the pictures online.
But given the lengths that Kline and some activists have gone to in pursuing their agenda, there are plenty of reasons for concern.
UPDATE: Brian Burgess, spokesman for Kline, said in an e-mail that the La Quinta records were part of Kline’s effort to identify possible victims of child rape and that Kline “never sought the identities of adult women during his investigation.†He said that “Tiller’s attorneys have attempted to twist the facts and portray the La Quinta investigation as though it happened side by side with the clinic records in hand.”
98 Comments
Lets see now … combine the hotel data … time/date stamped photographs … medical records … I wonder if the med records have dates … height and weight to match to pictures … town of referring doctors …
The thing that drives Cons nuts is that Roe v. Wade was a *CONSERVATIVE* decision.
Does the government have a right to interefere with a woman and her doctor? Let’s make every appendectormy dependent on a show of hands from the legislature! Talk about your nanny state.
If a woman wants to terminate a pregnancy, she’s pretty much established herself as being a bad Mother candidate.
For whatever reason.
Forcing her to somehow adhere to somebody else’s religious bias seems precisely un-American.
I want every male who’s received a V!agra prescription to have his medical records exposed to the general public. Hell, why shouldn’t we know if “Regular” or “Hank” or “Nathan” or “Econ101″ or “GMC70″ happened to show up with limp-dick syndrome?
Further proof that these tactics are nothing but witch hunts in an attempt to indimidate and harrass patients seeking a legal procedure.
she’s pretty much established herself as being a bad Mother candidate.
I think that’s a pretty blanket statement with little credence. I may not be for abortion, but DO know there are sometimes extenuating circumstances. Besides, being a guy, it just ain’t my place to say one way or the other.
Bastard. I knew it. And we told you so. Kline has known all along, and of course now that his representation has been busted with lies that he didn’t know, what else should we assume from Kline? That he will lie for anything and stop at nothing to harm women.
I’m also going to assume both KFL and OR have the names of those women. Probably Bill O’Lielly too.
I agree, lets get all the neocon’s medical records. I want to know.
The biggest question is if Tiller has nothing to hide, why is he fighting this so much?
If Kline et.al. are not interested in going after the women why are they getting the hotel records?
The biggest question is if Tiller has nothing to hide, why is he fighting this so much?
Y’know, when I had to sign a paper agreeing to ‘random’ UA, my boss told me it wouldn’t bother me if I had nothing to hide. So I asked if he’d be willing to have a video camera on him the whole time he worked. He didn’t like that idea. Are you willing to allow yourself to come under 24/7 scrutiny, or is that only for other people?
Ben, the same question occurs to me. Maybe some one who has prosecutorial experience can explain why subpoenaing the motel records was necessary when investigating Dr. Tiller. Perhaps there was the feeling in his office that these women would be needed as witnesses? If so, I’m sure that once the charges were filed, it would be possible to learn their identities at that time under orders from the Court, with some attempt to guard their personal information. I’m without any rational reason for the motel records’ use, if indeed what has been alleged is true, other than to make the identities of the patients public.
I have a new sign to carry around at the abortion protests…
“Your mother didnt have an abortion…
… Maybe she should have…”
VT - isn’t GMC over on ‘that side’ (prosecutor)? Maybe he can give us some guidence.
After having seen information provided to Bill O’Reilly for his program it just makes it hard for me to trust these guys.
I believe around that time was when Kline was also investigating the age of those getting the abortions. Was he not?
Perhaps he was investigating those Hotel records for evidence that Tiller was providing abortions to teens without parental consent or whatnot illegally.
Either way, this appears to be the Editors typical protect abortion at all costs threads, regardless of the law.
Amazing. Don’t the Editors care at all if Tiller is breaking the law?
I am designated as pro-life, though perhaps not as rabid about it as some. I can see no reason to obtain these records and this only confirms my suspicion in two area
1) Kline was an idiot
2) the pro-life movement, but acting stupidly, often hurts it’s movement more than it can ever help it.
stupid is as stupid does. Being pro life is not stupid, nor hatemongering, nor rascist, nor against women—although you can;t always tell by those who profess to be pro life
“The biggest question is if Tiller has nothing to hide, why is he fighting this so much?”
The answer is doctor/patient relationship. If Kline was looking for evidence of illegal abortions, and using hotel records and patient medical records to find something he has no idea happened, then where is the crime?
This is NOT about illegal abortions; it is about attempts to find anything that will shut down Tiller, by any means necessary. Even if finding something to prosecute Tiller is done so using illegal means. The whole thing is about religious conservatives using anything they can find to shut down Tiller. And I find it shows what the religious right will stoop to to get their way.
lj - well said.
Stumper,
What illegal means were used?
What did the alleged “religious right” have to stoop to?
My question is this:
Has anyone, as a result of Klines investigations, been wronged or outed?
Have any patients lost their privacy?
I must have missed it if they had. I keep seeing all these posts talking about concern for their privacy and going after ANY and ALL attempts to seek information going after Tiller, yet I have yet to see any victims so far.
Am I wrong? Anyone have any information on someone who lost their privacy and was outed because of these investigations?
Hey littlejohn.
What do you think of the roving death truck that the pro-lifers have running around town?
“Have any patients lost their privacy? ”
Uh yea! If their hotel records are being crossed to the clinics records, than their names and personal info will become public along with their information in regards to their medical records. If thats not a loss of privacy, than I dont know what is.
Tony-
i think it is gross, it is almost obscene, and it is way past being uncalled for. I think it hurts the prolife movement. I think in the end, it probably costs more lives through abortion that it saves. I think it is protected speech. i think it is gross, it is almost obscene, and it is way past being uncalled for. I think it hurts the prolife movement. I think in the end, it probably costs more lives through abortion that it saves.
Nathan,
I think you are defending someone who is indefensible. Kline was and continues to be an idiot
Have any patients lost their privacy?
And you’d know how? Believe me, if I had something on you, do you think I’d let you know? I’d squirrel it away and spring it on you when you’d least suspect it and it would do me the most good. Besides, too many Pro-Lifers are just plain insane. Burn ‘em at the stake to save their souls.
Tony,
Well….
Who lost their privacy?
Nathan, saying this as simply as I can, there is no reason of which I’m aware that required, as a part of former AG Kline’s investigation, subpoenaing the records of the motel. Now, if you can present an applicable Kansas statute to me which required this information be obtained to bring a complaint for an alleged violation thereof, I’ll reconsider my position.
The underage allegation you make could be supported by a limited court order allowing the ages of the patients to be made available to the AG’s office, with no need for names, addresses, etc. Should this limited disclosure revealed evidence of potential wrongdoing on the part of the physician, then a further inquiry might be made through the court, not by working at linking motel records with the records obtained from the clinic.
nathan–
That is just the point. Investigating Tiller properly I have no problem with. I think his hands ar dirty, but my thinking it doesn’t make it so, or allow for fishing expeditions. Investigating Tiller in the methodology that Kline has pursured, including the one referenced in this thread, proves him to be an idiot, and harmful to the cause.
I would imagine that the purpose of the motel records subpoena, was as a partial cross check to see if all of the medical records had been submitted in accordance with medical records subpoena.
For some reason, Kline didn’t trust Tiller. I’m sure that there was/is a concern also about falsifying medical records. If you are doing illegal late term abortions, you probably aren’t going to write it and implicate yourself.
trust - you are correct outlander, that is an important issue. Given the release of information to Bill O’Reilly just how much can these women trust Kline to keep their information confidential?
AG Kline was duty-bound to investigate the La Quinta motel as the scene of the crime, since abortionist quack Tiller was using it as an illegal outpatient medical facility for late-term abortions. (After injecting the baby with poison and inducing labor, it takes 3-5 days for the mother to deliver a dead baby, at that time waiting in the motel and being monitored occasionally. This illegal activity has now been stopped.)
In the 2005 botched post-viable abortion death of Christin Gilbert, the 19-year-old mother gave birth to her dead baby in a van going from the motel to the abortion mill. Later, Tiller’s abortion mill called 911 to ask for a slow, quiet ambulance with no lights or siren to take the dying girl to Wesley Medical Center, without attracting too much attention. There, see died a horrible, agonizing death. In this case, the autopsy was delayed for months after the girl’s body was cremated, and the grand jury was denied key evidence like the medical record, and the testimony of notorious abortionist quack Leroy Carhart, who stayed in Nebraska while the DA refused to subpoena him for killing the girl in Tiller’s abortion mill. BOHA told the grand jury that the multiple violations of state laws and medical regulations were “acceptable standards of care”.
Now we will have the evidence of the criminal abortions. We will have the indictments and convictions. We will have criminal abortionist quacks and their killer staff in prison. We will have justice.
Being new to Wichita, I am not familiar with either Kline or Tiller and their respective faults.
However, I am quite familiar with which side WE Blog editors stand on this issue. They are opposed to any attempt to protect the life of the unborn. So given that they cannot deny the unequivocal fact that the unborn has a heartbeat, brainwave activity, and can feel pain, and therefore deserve the right to life, they resort to throwing up softball threads to bash those who advocate the protecting of life.
I have missed any threads that have exemplified Tiller’s misdeeds. However, if Kline is using less than scrupulous legal maneuvers to stop this guy, we can expect to hear from the WE Blog about them.
They both may be slimeballs, but equal treatment would be a real refresher. However, the goal here is indoctrination, not equal time.
You all need to just GET OVER IT! Roe v Wade is the established LAW of the land and abortion will remain a LEGAL and SAFE procedure in this country! You religious nutcase freaks need to go protest something else- maybe gambling or beer or something else not worthwhile. Women in this country are not going to be forced back to the 18th century by you people no matter how much you might want to do it! I repeat IT AIN’T GONNA HAPPEN! If you want to oppress women then become a friggin MUSLIM and move to Saudi Arabia or some other camel shithole! You will NOT do that in the United States of Friggin America!!! Got it?
Sigh…
If you don’t want women to have abortions then create a society that welcomes and cares for all life.
A woman’s right to choose is not going to go away. You cannot force a woman to gestate against her will.
A lot of you “pro lifers” don’t really give a damn about the baby or the mother at all.
You just have your own particular strain of good old fashioned nose trouble.
If it is ok to release these records to follow your crusade? What other records should it be ok to release?
I can’t think of anything the religious nutcases could do to encourage the resurgence of back-alley abortions more than this. When the physician can’t promise confidentiality, women who don’t want to be harassed will turn to the people who don’t keep records. Some of them will die, just like they did before Roe v. Wade.
Por que?,
Something about bearing false witness…..?
I posted this on an earlier thread, but it’s more applicable here:
Por que?,
If medical records are private, you would have no idea whether they contained any evidence or not. In order to find out, you have to violate the privacy of many people who’s records have no evidence whatsoever. Given that OR has been photographing patients and cars going into Tiller’s for years, the redacting of names would present no real problem for any competent investigator. And given that the last time records were turned over, it took less than a week before they were being quoted in depth on national TV by O’Reilly, how can you begin to claim that privacy is being respected?
The truth is that you don’t give a rat’s ass about anyone’s life if there’s a chance you can use it to find something- anything- you can spin into a way to screw with Tiller!
“”"I can’t think of anything the religious nutcases could do to encourage the resurgence of back-alley abortions more than this. When the physician can’t promise confidentiality, women who don’t want to be harassed will turn to the people who don’t keep records. Some of them will die, just like they did before Roe v. Wade.”"”
Doctors and motels they use need to let these women use “Jane Doe” instead of their real names. Then facist like Kline won’t have anything to get their hands on.
It is positively wrong that Kline got these records in the first place. Our rights to privacy are not superceded by his witchhunt into “possible” crimes.
No evidence to begin with. No looky.
And now the records are jeopardized by the republicans INSANE fight on abortion. I say INSANE because nothing else seems to matter to these nuts. Not even performing the AG job. One track politics with one goal in mind. Wrong for Kansas, wrong for Johnson County, wrong for America.
I’m glad I voted against him and broke my long string of one party voting.
But it ain’t over till it’s over: Kline will be gone soon.
WHO GET’S THOSE RECORDS THEN?????
“If they have nothing to hide, what are they worrying about?”
“They are unpatriotic”
Why is it these “straw man” arguments keep popping up whenever there is a question of whether it is a violation of a Constitution right? What purpose do they serve except to excuse an excess of governmental power? Whenever these argument are used they are actually arguing AGAINST the Constitution, the rule of law that made this the greatest country and unique in the world. Kline did a disserves to the office he held, the country he called home and the cause that drove him to abuse the trust that the public put upon him.
He put above the law of the land and in fact the very law he USED to violate these laws, his personal agenda.
It seems to me that patient privacy concerns, while real, are used as an all encompassing excuse that abortionists, WHO MAY BE BREAKING THE LAW, hide behind. If patient’s files cannot be seen by law enforcement, and/or corroborating sources accessed, there can be no investigation of abortion providers. There has to be a balance.
Why should abortion providers be above the law?
“He put above the law of the land and in fact the very law he USED to violate these laws, his personal agenda.”
Exactly.
Parkay YOU LOST your grand jury over Gilbert (another PRIVACY issue you used to your advantage). The parents did not want you sticking your nose into their business. Don’t you think that if they felt something wrong happened, they would have wanted justice? No. You inject your own little one view belief onto everyone else. And when all those pp disagree with you, you think everyone else is corrupt. YOU ARE CORRUPT.
Phill had no business with the names of those women, and you probably have them too. My god, if I’d had an abortion, I’d be scared spitless right now over what you all plan to do with that information.
STOP terrorizing women and their decisions. You act as if they’re such victims and you’re trying to save them, but that isn’t at all what you are doing. You worthless POS.
and Nathan and Outlander, you are just as bad. Everytime we bring something up, you say “no it wont’ do that” then when the exact thing happens that we said would happen…you say “well it’s because of xyz”. You are ALWAYS wrong, and then justify it. So why don’t you admit it for once. Jesus Christ you people are aholes.
UPDATE: Brian Burgess, spokesman for Kline, said in an e-mail that the La Quinta records were part of Kline’s effort to identify possible victims of child r*pe and that Kline “never sought the identities of adult women during his investigation.” He said that “Tiller’s attorneys have attempted to twist the facts and portray the La Quinta investigation as though it happened side by side with the clinic records in hand.”
———–
Imagine that, Tillers attorneys twisting the facts.
I just shake my head when I see the Eagle doing whatever they can to protect Wichita’s own George Tiller, world renown late term abortionist, as if he were a source of local pride. Yet, they will attack school board members who may not believe in Darwinian evolution theory because they are embarrassed. Left wing priorities…
Isn’t Nathan the kid who was posting pornography links on the WEB?
He really is a work!
Brillant, chech the motel records for people registered as child epar (I had to spell it backwards because the system wouldn’t accept the post with correct spelling!)victim.
Outlander, if that were true, how in the world did those sidenotes get written in there from the other list?
Stop being so damn gullible. You know exactly what they did with that information.
That’s quite different from his PREVIOUS statement which said :”"No patient has ever been identified,” said Brian Burgess, spokesman for Kline, who now serves as Johnson County district attorney. Burgess declined to elaborate, saying details of Kline’s three-year investigation into Tiller’s clinic and a Planned Parenthood clinic in Overland Park were still under seal.
lies lies lies lies lies. I consider myself cool-headed on the abortion issue, but nothing made me more angry than that piece of S— Kline using “child r a p e” as an excuse to fish through medical records to find something to pin on Tiller.
It’s DISGUSTING. So disgusting that I devoted an entire paper on it. And I wrote a very angry letter to the Eagle that resulted in my car being keyed with very nasty words.
You can’t do this crap unless you have evidence of a crime. Kline is trying to get these women’s private records to search for evidence of a crime. It doesn’t work that way, you don’t get to sift though private medical records on the off chance you might find something not quite right.
Kline doesn’t give two hoots about “child r—”. It’s just a tactic to make anyone who opposes him look like they’re pro-child r—. What he’s doing is an infuriating assault on privacy rights. Even lawyer-patient privilege is protected, why wouldn’t something as sensitive as medical history be protected as well?
Scum. He spit on all the actual child-r— victims out there by using this pathetic excuse to vilify Tiller.
“Kline’s subpoena asked for the names, addresses and telephone numbers for guests “who received a medical discount.”
Names, addresses and telephone numbers.
Think about that for a minute.
Chilling. What a creepy, teen-sex obsessed bag of steaming garbage. This is the man who said a guy receiving head is not indicative of sexual abuse, but a girl getting oral is. I did all of the research even though it was outside of my major. What a sick piece of crap.
(I can’t post the R-word on these forums. What the hell, Eagle? It’s the subject of this post! That makes me even more steamed! I rarely lose my temper, but Kline just makes me boil over in rage!)
In the State of the Union Address, WorstPresidentEver said this:
“To build a future of quality health care, we must trust patients and doctors to make medical decisions . . . The best way to achieve that goal [of better health care] is by expanding consumer choice, not government control.”
Oh, yes, by all means get big government out of the health care system . . . unless of course we’re talking about abortion, in which case we need much MORE government interference.
Actually we men abort millions of lives every time we blow a load. Sperm are life too, how come the pro life bunch don’t have their panties in a bunch about that. How come they don’t support anti-orgasm policy for men unless it for procreating.
Hey White Pachyderm — hold on to your hat… I have it on good firm evidence that is exactly what is being planned by the private sex police!! The new Inquisition even…
AND they want to ban marriage for all except those who can “bear children”. It isnt just Same Gender marriage they are after… that is just the tip of the iceberg… They want to extend it to ANY couple unable to bear children…
It is pretty darn scary if you ever talk to one of THOSE wacko nuts!!
It wouldnt surprise me if parkay, and a few others on this Blog are a part of that wacko nut group…
where did you hear about this chas, thats some creepy stuff.
Who’s afraid of babies? Apparently the Wichita Eagle and most of the wimpy men who have posted on this site. Real men protect women and children from those who tear the innocent from limb to limb. They quit excusing abortion for because it suits them.
Tara, have you ever considered Women’s Studies? I’m sorry those creeps Keyed your car. Pathetic.
W. E. — I ran into some of those very scary people in the Dakotas a few years ago… They literally will tell you that same sex marriage is just the tip of the iceberg… They have a total agenda, to wipe out ALL marriage, except for marriages that can result in pro-creation…. They are even worse than OR, or KFL, or any of the pro life activists!! And they are SERIOUS!!
They believe that if they hit the HOT BUTTON issues first, they get their foot in the door, and that will lead to their next steps… So, first attack same sex marriage, because they can get a lot of bigoted response… Then when they get people de-sensitized to that one, they will go after the others on their list… They will go after co-habitating heterosexuals after they “win” on gay marriage… Co-habitating heterosexuals will be declared illegal… THEN, they will go after older couples who get married after the age of child birth… Finally, Sr. Citizens will not be allowed to marry… since they are far beyond the age of producing offspring!!
W. E. they are very scary people, because they are SO deadly serious about their beliefs… They are starting at the local levels… school boards, county commissions, local small town/city governments… Then they will work their way into State legislatures… and finally U. S. Congress seats…
We really need to be VERY careful of these people… They talk a “populist” sort of political line… Only when they have your attention, do they come on with their full agenda…
Women would rather protect their rights to abort than protect the FEMALE children who are raped and become pregnant. These children are doubly abused. By the pedophile and by the infamous tiller when he does not report the abuse!!
I am a woman who wants to protect the abused children - I was one! Can’t anyone see that these are TWO DIFFERENT ISSUES?
If tiller were honest and obeyed the law, maybe he would prevent further child abuse on at least the living children. I hope Kline succeeds.
Mimi,
Do you really want to see a nine-year-old girl with terror in her eyes when Kline (with a small boner) presses her to describe her assault by her Sunday school teacher in all it’s vivid details for the world (and her rapist) to hear?
The issue is privacy. Without patient privacy, people tend to tell their doctors fewer symptoms and treatments fail and patients sue. That holds true for every branch of medicine, not just abortion. Nobody halfway rational wants their embarassing details posted online or opined about at length on an imitation news show on Fox. If you aren’t prepared to reveal everything in your medical files, mabe you oughtn’t be so eager to break into other people’s confidential records.
“It seems to me that patient privacy concerns, while real, are used as an all encompassing excuse that abortionists, WHO MAY BE BREAKING THE LAW, hide behind. If patient’s files cannot be seen by law enforcement, and/or corroborating sources accessed, there can be no investigation of abortion providers. There has to be a balance.
“Why should abortion providers be above the law?”
Let’s put the shoe on the other foot. Let’s say there is a way to identify pro-life people and because they may be plotting to blow up an abortion clinic or kill an abortion doctor, it is okay for the police to pull them over and do a thorough search of them whenever police want to do that.
Pro-life people, like abortion doctors, have 4th amendment rights of being protected against unreasonable search and seizure. Part of the Bill of Rights, ya know? No probable cause, no search - it is that simple.
Doctors are sued all the time and medical records examined.
What gives Tiller a pass on procedures already established when it comes to cases seen in court that involves Physicians and their patients record?
Regular - when a DR is being sued the records are being obtained by the PATIENT. That is a lot different from the case here.
Really Ben? I guess all those patients must have sued the Haysville “Pain” Doctor then.
Or was it a combination of State and Federal investigations that found out information through medical records?
“No probable cause, no search - it is that simple”
There must have been Steven. You can’t get a subpoena without a court approving it.
All hospitals, healthcare agencys, and heathcare providers are subject to review by having medical records in their poccession examined on a regular basis…that’s how the system of checks and balances works and the quality of healthcare provided assured. No provider gets a free pass. Just last year, a local home health company was locked and shut down while it’s patient records were reviewed with a fine tooth comb by authorities, and as a result of the investigation, that agency received heavy penalties because things weren’t up to par. I’ve seen home health agencys that were shut down completely for abiding by the law. This is as it should be, just like the clinic in Haysville…all medical treatment facilities have to be subject to strict standards and they have to abide by the law in order to protect the public. Tiller is no different than anyone else being investigated when illegal activity is suspected. If he’s abiding by the law as he should, then he has nothing to worry about. I think his insistance of his “concern” for the privacy of his patients and his declaration that he’s the object of a “witch hunt” is just a smoke screen for what he’s trying to hide. If he’s on the up and up, then he shouldn’t object to the investigation.
That should be home health agencies NOT abiding by the law were shut down. Not enough caffeine yet!
Regular - yes, a number of patients andfamilies have sued him. Beyond that, as you know I have expressed concern for privacy issues there as well.
I still question the desire of Kline and OR to have the identities of the patients as made clear by the La Quinta subpoena and the posted pictures. Another scoop for the O’Reilly Show? The problem here is the lack of trust; Kline didn’t help with that with his TV stunt.
That’s OK Mary — Most of us can empathize with you on the caffeine thing… Mine is still perking, I think!!
I do believe the La Quinta subpoena’s were issued to look into the investigation of underage females. I thought outlander answered this yesterday.
Hmmm.. And Outlander is a reporter for what news agency???
caffeine … the most important of the food groups.
One has to wonder what kind of wording Kline would have had to use in a subpoena of hotel records, that could relate to “possible crimes” — I have a gut level hunch, that we are only seeing the tip of Kline’s iceberg!!
Ahhh yesss Ben… how true!! Hey, maybe thats what bothers me about Romney… How can we possibly have a President who doesnt start the day with a good pot of fresh coffee??
Like I said before, if Tiller hasn’t broken the law, he should have nothing to worry about.
Every medical record in this state is open to review and investigation by the proper authorities.
Speculation here; I would think the AG’s office utilized a business records subpoena to obtain the La Quinta records. KSA 22-3214 details the use of subpoenas in a criminal action. However, I would imagine that the Attorney General’s office has subpoena power as a part of its investigative powers.
I further speculate, without referring to the various statutes, that the statutory provisions concerning issuing a subpoena are congruent with the provisions of the Code of Civil Procedure. I don’t litigate any more; but when I did, and assisted other members of the firm in litigating, the procedure for obtaining and issuing a subpoena were fairly simple (in a civil case): the attorney seeking the subpoena prepared one, and served it upon the party whose attendance at trial was desired, or served a subpoena duces tecum which commanded the person served to bring with him or her the records set forth in the subpoena. No court permission is required to issue the subpoena. The court became involved if: 1) the subpoenaed person failed to appear; 2) the subpoenaed person, entity, failed to produce the records sought; 3) the person or entity subpoenaed moved to quash the subpoena.
This should be contrasted with the process to obtain a search warrant, where the prosecutor must apply to a court and show probable cause as to why the warrant should issue. The judge then causes the warrant to issue upon a finding that probable cause exists.
Back to the La Quinta matter; I’m not aware of whether any action was taken by the motel to move a court to quash the subpoena issued, or whether it voluntarily complied.
I’m relying on (perhaps faulty) memory concerning the process for issuing a subpoena. However, I feel very certain that the fundamental procedure hasn’t changed in that no prior permission of any court is needed to issue a subpoena. This would be especially true of an agency of the government to which the legislature has granted subpoena power to enhance its investigative functions, as at that point, there would be no court action pending where application for issuance of a subpoena could be made to a judge. At the time the subpoena was issued and served upon the motel, there was no case on file, IIRC; and, as mentioned earlier, I speculate with some certainty that the AG issued the subpoena to obtain records it felt relevant to its investigation.
While I have nothing to substantiate the following, I wonder whether the lawfulness of the subpoena being issued entered into the decision to dismiss the charges pending against Dr. Tiller. That has crossed my mind on several occasions, and I’ve no satisfactory answer to the same.
Interesting observations VT. Having received a number of subpoenas over the years I do know that they are easily prepared and served. And, if they are appropriate then there is no problem with compliance. My problem with the La Quinta subpoenas are two-fold: fishing expedition and invasion of privacy. I don’t really care about the investigations of Tiller; I don’t have a dog in that fight. However, the privacy of patients IS of concern. Esepcially with the history of those involved in releasing information to the media and posting pictures on the net.
Ben, “One person’s fishing expedition is another person’s discovery of potentially relevant and material evidence”.
As I have posted earlier, it seems to me that the subpoena was not warranted as a part of the investigation. The medical records, albeit redacted, would be sufficient in and of themselves, to determine the existence of possible unlawful acts. If there was a question concerning age, to the extent that is material or relevant under the appropriate Kansas statutes, it would be my opinion that relief from a court might have been sought to obtain that information. To me, with what little I know from reading/listening to media reports, the issuance of the subpoena was more of a “fishing expedition”.
Again, if Tiller has nothing to hide, why is he fighting so hard to avoid any cooperation with what the Grand Jury desires?
Tiller’s attorneys appear to have mastered cloaking “any” activity conducted in his clinic, including those that must conform to State law.
Regular, as I posted earlier, given the current situation, I feel the grand jury is entitled to view the medical records, redacted as necessary. My position here is tempered a bit by the realization that this is not the first investigation, grand jury or otherwise, to which Dr. Tiller has been subjected.
Hypothetically, if this Grand Jury doesn’t find any evidence supporting an indictment, or returns an indictment for, say, technical violations of reporting regulations, e.g., not contained in the earlier charges filed and dismissed, even after having access to the medical records, will this be satisfactory? Or will there be yet another petition, another Grand Jury empaneled?
I am not involved in any way in this matter. I think and believe the members of the Grand Jury are doing their best to conduct a thorough and fair investigation. At some point, however, it is my opinion that continued investigations become counter-productive, and need to cease where prior investigations do not result in any indictments or complaints being filed.
Vaughn,
Let the Grand Jury do what it has requested. If nothing is found, then the precedent is set and nothing further should be done. It would be easier for Tiller’s attorneys to point out legal harassment, by various agencies.
However, I don’t recall that any case against Tiller has ever been brought to a conclusion in a full trial or Grand Jury examination. It has usually been thwarted by legal tacticians.
There has been nothing to see because nothing has been allowed to be done.
I say, let the process go forward if Tiller wants to clear his name.
If the process is stifled once gain, then I along with others will always have doubts about legitimate medical care being provided in his clinic in accordances to Kansas law.
I will add another comment to VT’s observations: it is rather expensive to do all of this paperwork. Conservatives complain mightily about the cost of compliance with various government regulations. How about the costs involved here? Especially when it is done more than once.
I wonder what would happen if a group got some signatures and got a Grand Jury to go after Spirit One or some other Church. Then start subpoenaing everything they have - including information about contributors. I can hear the screaming “harrassment” now.
Ben,
If Spirit One was suspected of doing illegal practices or activities, then I would encourage prosecution go forward - that would include any Church, including the one I attend.
Your proposed hypothetical argument is fallaciously imbalanced by pre-assigning values of what “Conservatives” might think.
’suspected’ - I am sure there is SOMEONE out there who ’suspects’ them of something. In fact, when the IRS inquired of them they DID scream harassment.
This had better be the last time they harass him after he is proven innocent once again. I mean it, they need to pass a law against this.
I think everytime that he comes up clean, Operation Rescue and KFL should get fined a million each to recoup costs.
Now, how many of you would be willing to sign a petition demanding an in-depth grand jury investigation of possible terrorist acts, threats, harassment, misuse of funds and anything else they may find out about by Operation Rescue and KFL? They would subpoena their financial records and those of their leaders, search for stockpiles of explosives, lists of donors and amounts, printing orders, hear witnesses testify to possible threats, check e-mails. phone records and personal ties for links to other anti-abortion terrorist groups etc. We have considerably more probable cause for an investigation than they had, and for much more serious crimes.
Let’s get this started! What’s good for the goose….!
I would ask anyone who is interested to read the Order; the link is on the homepage of kansas.com in the update article. There have been raised at least three questions, one of which is the power of a Grand Jury to issue a subpoena duces tecum.
Why don’t you start the petition, Jed? If Tiller is so innocent, then why is he spending big bucks trying to stop any investigation? Why wouldn’t he just cooperate and let the investigators see the records? All healhcare providers have their records reviewed all the time.
I remember when this whole business first started, someone mysteriously flooded his clinic from the roof top….I wonder if by chance the chart room was flooded? That wouldn’t surprise me in the least.
Mary,
“If Tiller is so innocent, then why is he spending big bucks trying to stop any investigation? Why wouldn’t he just cooperate and let the investigators see the records?”
Maybe you forgot the last time he turned over records, with solemn promises made that they would be absolutely sealed, only to have them all turn up on Bill O’Reilly a week later? He wouldn’t have much regard for his patients if he didn’t fight this intrusion.
Also, a couple years ago, OR managed to identify a patient going into a Wichita clinic, and flooded her neighborhood with anonymous postcards with their usual pictures of dead babies and accusing her by name of killing her baby. She hadn’t gone in for an abortion, she was picking up samples of birth control. We don’t need 2,000 repeat performances!
Oh please!! Jed you can’t be THAT naive! Tiller is only concerned about saving his own ass. Think about it..the authorities who are investigating his practice are not members of OR or any other pro-life group.
I’ll bet when the truth comes out, your Dr Tiller won’t appear to be the saint you seem to think he is. Why is he so afraid of the truth being told if his practice is totally on the up and up?
There is no way any of his patients are going to be identified, no way. The investigators won’t allow that. They will do things by the book, because the liability will be to great if they don’t.
Oh please, Mary! You anti’s have demonized Tiller for so long and so hatefully that you wouldn’t recognize the truth if it had it’s teeth buried in your gluteus maximus! I’ve at least met the man and talked with him. All you do is ignorantly pass judgement.
Tell us Jed, why is Tiller so resistant in letting the State examine Medical Records to insure he is in compliance with the law?
Do you think Tiller is above the law and should not be monitored?
Should Tiller do what he wishes behind closed doors, never to have any oversight at all?
I hate to say it Mary.
But I fell you have been dishonest with me and the forum.
You have advocated truly pro life practices. But you are also on this witch hunt to shut Dr. Tiller down.
Which if course means you want to take a woman’s right to choose. You just want to do it by denying a facility existence.
In all respect, it would be more honest for you to simply admit you want a woman’s right to choose taken away.
I have to tell you this disappoints me.
Abortion exists because our society values life only provisionally. Some are deemed fit to live. Some to die. Economics being the arbiter.
“Abortion exists because our society values life only provisionally. Some are deemed fit to live. Some to die. Economics being the arbiter.”
————-
Probably unwittingly, you nailed it JR. It is a sad state of affairs that economics is used as justification to snuff out human life.
Operation Screw You should be required to repay Dr. Tiller for every cent he has to spend for clerical efforts provide records and for his legal defense when he is proven to be innocent of any wrong doing.
If Tiller has nothing to hide, yada, yada……..
In the United States, you are INNOCENT until proven guilty - not the other way around.
A man, even a doctor that performs abortions, should not have to prove his innocence.
OR’s case seems to be based on photographs taken from across a parking lot - that “evidence” is meaningless - there is no proof even that those women have had abortions.
This is nothing more than a witch hunt a la Salem 1620.
If there is admissible evidence of a crime, then it should be brought forward in a criminal case - if not - let the man be.
Abortion is legal in Kansas - if you disagree with that - take it up with your representatives - don’t harass a doctor for practicing his profession.
It is a fact most women conserve the limited resources they have for their children already born outlander.
I wonder, how many women chose to terminate a pregnancy due to welfare “reform”.
I will expect to see you weigh in support on SCHIP and health care for all and other social aid outlander. Now that you recognize the problem.
We “suspect” that Troy Newman has had unprotected intercourse with farm animals - we have photographs of him walking away from a petting zoo with a smile on his face - we want a Grand Jury to investigate this and we want him to “prove” that he is innocent.
We want all of his personal records, his copies of National Geographic and his history of visiting CatFancy.com and we want those records TOMORROW.
Further, we want to KNOW why he was visiting the Kansas Humane Society facility, why there is possibly straw on the floorboards of his car and why he is denying the State that information.
If he has nothing to hide, then he should be glad to PROVE himself innocent.
We don’t care how much it costs him, he needs to PROVE that he is innocent.
Reggie,
The country is now so polarized on the issue of abortion that it would be impossible to find anyone who is honestly unbiased one way or the other and not brain-dead, so no regulatory body can exist that can fairly render a judgement on the actions of a doctor that performs abortions. You anti’s created this state of affairs with your willingness to use any means no matter how despicable, say anything, no matter how untrue, bring legal actions no matter how fraudulent, kill doctors, bomb clinics, threaten patients, harass children, threaten contractors, vandalize homes etcetera, etcetera, to achieve your absolutist ends, so I guess now you’re stuck with it. Dr. Tiller can’t be fairly regulated. Unfortunately, neither can you!
It is only the anti-choice folks that approve of the murder of doctors that perform abortions.
So much for pro-LIFE………………..
Outie,
“Probably unwittingly, you nailed it JR. It is a sad state of affairs that economics is used as justification to snuff out human life.”
That sad state of affairs has existed unbroken throughout recorded history. At it’s root, economic wealth has always represented survival; that’s why getting rich is so effing popular!
Funny you should bring it up, since you violently oppose anything that effectively alleviates that sad state of affairs as “socialism.”
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