Many observers don’t think the proposed economic stimulus plan will do much to avert a recession. New York Times columnist Paul Krugman calls the plan “a lemon,†arguing that the bulk of the tax cuts go to well-off people and that “sending checks to people in good financial shape does little or nothing to increase overall spending.†Why? Because more affluent people won’t spend the extra money, he argues. “They’ll just put it in the bank.â€
He blames Democrats for caving on more effective provisions targeted at the poor — such as a boost in unemployment benefits and food stamps — that would have put money into the hands of needy people ready to spend it.
At any rate, if the checks come in mid-May, as expected, they won’t do much to slow a recession that many economists believe already has started.
95 Comments
It will be perfectly effective at increasing the national debt every man, woman, and child will have to be taxed for to pay down.
Interest payments alone would fund a small army.
But it will be a perfect redistribution of wealth from those who are paying money in taxes, to those who are not contributing at all.
The wise will save or invest the money, or pay down some of their accumulated average $7,000 credit card debt.
The unwise will blow it, as the politicians hope.
What a country!
Car Tag money and perhaps some good eats some where for me. I’ll put the rest into savings.
As much as I dislike the huckster and his passion for a theocracy, I think he made a good point last night in that our national debt is owed to China and it is likely Chinese made goods will be purchased with this rebate, in addition to middle eastern oil, etc. His question was, just whose economy would be stimulated? Good question.
I also dislike that he was so obviously pandering to Florida voters with his I-95 talk, but he did have a good point. Public works projects that used American labor and goods would be a better idea, given the state of our infrastructure.
But then…
That would mean FDR had it right, and desperate wingnuts like max and paulie couldnt STAND that.
heheheheheh.
Farmgirl, I don’t think OSHA, the labor unions, or
half a dozen other regulations will allow another CCC, public works program in America.
Great idea though.
Maybe this Give a Gift program will splutter out when the Senate adds on over and above what the House agreed to. Money for all is not good. It has too be paid back by those who are paying taxes. It will be hard for Congress to back off on this largees now. You would think the News Media would write more about the effects of free money. Nah, won’t happen especially by the Eagle.
What idiot continues to read Krugman for economic advice anymore? He’s worried that you shouldn’t give money to ‘affluent people’ because they might just put it in the bank. Maybe if he learned what banks did based on the money they have on deposit and such he wouldn’t be so worried.
Apparently in NYT World it’s best to spend the stimulus at Best Buy on toys. Only idiots would invest the money and expect it to return more money in the future.
If a smart financial person were to review the stimulus package they might have started by considering where the government is going to get the money in the first place. They are taking money from the taxpayer and writing checks back to the taxpayer. There is a middle-man in that transaction who is not needed.
$70 billion for businesses and a few hundred dollars for everyone else to look the other way so they don’t get upset that it’s just another excuse to give his campaign contributers another tax cut.
Sigh… Paul Krugman. His opinion is just that. And as a bonus, he is wrong.
Mr. Krugman obviously doesn’t have any idea what is “well off”, nor does he have any idea as to what people will do with the money. Plus, those in the higher tier of the rebate will likely be buying different things than those in the lower tier, thus broadening the effect of the stimulus.
The New York Pessimist.
Yeah, what does Krugman know. After all, he’s only been correct about Bush for the past 7 years and Bush has been right on the economy, um, never.
It won’t make a bit of difference.
Shame on the Dems for letting go of the parts of the plan that WOULD have made a difference.
20 years ago, when stuff was still made here? This would have been a shot in the arm.
Now? It’ll go straight to Wal mart.
Then China.
May our children forgive us the country we are leaving them.
But I doubt it.
AmWay, that’s a good point.
FDR’s CCC didn’t employ union workers. Government paid scabs!
“I do not understand, and cannot accept, the resistance of President Bush and Republican leaders to including an extension of unemployment benefits for those who are without work through no fault of their own,” Rangel said.” KC Star Report.
An extension of unemployment benefits would come AFTER the recession takes place, and unemployment increases. We have LOW unemployment today, so no Rangel, we don’t NEED to provide more benefits.
This is supposedly a “stimulous package”. Idea is (right or wrong) to get cash to the people who will spend it on MADE IN XXXXX stuff NOW.
Further, if anyone is without work – it IS through their OWN fault now. Who the heck ELSE would you hold responsible for each individual person? (This question is not directed at true democrats and liberals because we know you believe the nanny state is responsible for all aspects of life.) There are still plenty of HELP WANTED signs out there. So they might have to work two or three jobs at the new minimum wage. Maybe they might have MOVE to a new location. But there ARE jobs. And yes, people CAN get educated and trained but only if the INDIVIDUAL makes the effort.
I am already paying everyone else’s bills. Now I have to hold someone’s hand and get them a job? Scratch that: Now I have to simply give up the money so they can spend it and MAYBE go look for a job?
May our children forgive us the country we are leaving them. J R
Our kids will be too busy working to pay all the bills coming due and won’t have time to forgive us.
AmWay, that’s a good point.
FDR’s CCC didn’t employ union workers. Government paid scabs!
Looked for
the Union label
only to find
Made in China
AmWay, that’s a good point.
FDR’s CCC didn’t employ union workers. Government paid scabs!
Looked for
the Union label
only to find
Made in China!
“Our kids will be too busy working to pay all the bills coming due and won’t have time to forgive us.”
It aint government that has and will ruin it for our kids.
It’s the greed of the investor class who watched all the manufacturing jobs go to China so they could fatten their quarterlies.
Yes, money “invested” by putting it into the bank will, when lent by the bank, encourage growth. One of the things the “pundits” are saying is that banks aren’t lending, even with the spread now available resulting from the recent Fed action, as they are “afraid to loan”. Thus, if the banks continue to have the fear, putting the money in the bank won’t do much for anyone, well, at least much good.
I think my prior posts on the topic in other days, on other threads need not be repeated here, other than to say this plan, while politically popular, isn’t going to do what the politicians hope it will do for the economy of the United States.
It’s a pointless “loan” on money they shouldn’t have anyway. What a scam we’ve let happen.
I’m buying gold, silver and more ammunition.
See, and all this time I’ve been hearing from the Bushevics that his economic policies were *working!*
And now he’s giving away more money?! To save the country from Bushonomics?
The moment Shrub included poor people in the mix of his latest bribe attempt, I knew he knows just what a mess he’s put this nation into. But he just couldn’t resist another $70 Billion in additional corporate welfare, could he?
I’m sure Steve Jobs and Bill Gates and Warren Buffet are camped around their mailboxes wishing and hoping their $600 check from Shrub arrives! Glory-oski! Now they can go out and spend some money for a change!
I remember from the first days of the Clinton Administration a quote from an insider who said something along the lines of, “We ran on ‘It’s the Economy, Stupid,’ but only when we got the real numbers did we realize the economy was far worse than we’d ever imagined!”
Whomever inherits the Oval Office is due for a slap in the face when they discover the legacy of George WMD Bush. He’s tripled that National Debt, he’s shamed us in the international community, he’s turned his back on the 1-in-5 Iraqi War veterans who’ve returned from the war with brain damage, he’s made us a debtor nation to the Chinese…
Thanks to the stewardship of Shrub, the United States of America is in (as his Daddy called it) Deep Doo-Doo.
In Fiscal Year 2006, the U. S. Government spent $406 Billion of your money on interest payments* to the holders of the National Debt. Compare that to NASA at $15 Billion, Education at $61 Billion, and Department of Transportation at $56 Billion. The interest expense paid on the National Debt is the third largest expense in the federal budget.
Watch how fast the numbers are spinning on the national debt clock. I’ll bet we won’t even be able to see the numbers when the house and senate gavel the stimulus bill and Bushy signs it into law:
http://zfacts.com/p/318.html
“…this plan, while politically popular, isn’t going to do what the politicians hope it will do for the economy of the United States.”
Vaughn, you are too kind to say it like I think it really is – this plan, while politically popular, isn’t going to do what the politicians hope they can fool us into believing will help the economy of the United States. All they want is the PERCEPTION they are doing something helpful.
Surely they aren’t stupid enough to actually think this will help!? Maybe so. We’ve seen lots of evidence of such stupidity…
Linda, for many, perception is reality. :-)
Personally, I’m going to use mine to buy hamburger instead of living on oatmeal so I can get E. coli and steal money from Econ’s pocket.
Bush wouldn’t get this stimulous bill if the Democrat Majority Congress didn’t vote FOR it!
You slimeballs want to blame just Bush for this!
Your Democrat wimps in Congress are such pu**ies, doing what George tells them to do all the time.
Socialist Pu**y Democrat Party of America
Vaughn Tolle
Posted January 25, 2008 at 1:41 pm | Permalink
“while politically popular, isn’t going to do what the politicians hope it will do for the economy of the United States.”
How do you explain this to people? I’ve posted on it the last few days also, but it seems to me that everyone (myself included) see the $$$ we will get, but don’t like to think about where the money is coming from.
What “if”, they change the laws and added a new payroll deduction – just for the national debt?
Maybe those people excited by the prospects of FREE MONEY, would wake up and realize, “Hey, we are giving you this money now, but sooner or later you, your kids, and grandkids, will have to pay it back.”
So divide 150 billion by say ten years, and then enact a law which creates another program automatically withhold a portion of the payback from ALL wage workers?
To capture those rich, greedy, villians (happy JR), somehow come up with a way of milking their investments and earnings too. (although this later idea might hit all of our investments, since over 200 million Americans are invested.)
You must include low wage earners. Maybe then, they wouldn’t be so eager for more FREE MONEY!
But let’s try to stop the FREE MONEY idea.
Yes, J R, I am a tightwad. But if EVERYONE was paying toward the national debt, I would not have so much resistence to new social/entitlement programs.
Maybe this would encourage the “pay as you go approach” this congress promised (but didn’t deliver) or the “balanced budget” or “line item veto” (which were also discarded).
Call it the nation debt tax.
lindainks55
Posted January 25, 2008 at 1:49 pm | Permalink
“…this plan, while politically popular, isn’t going to do what the politicians hope it will do for the economy of the United States.”
Vaughn, you are too kind to say it like I think it really is – this plan, while politically popular, isn’t going to do what the politicians hope they can fool us into believing will help the economy of the United States. All they want is the PERCEPTION they are doing something helpful.
Surely they aren’t stupid enough to actually think this will help!? Maybe so. We’ve seen lots of evidence of such stupidity…
Vaughn Tolle
Posted January 25, 2008 at 1:50 pm | Permalink
Linda, for many, perception is reality.
This is the face of American politics today. Smoke over substance. perception over reality. AMerican politicians only want you to think they are actually accomplishing something–Wether it is the war of terror, the war of poverty, the war on fat, the war on war, whatever. To actually do something would require more than pandering to every greasy wheel on the wagon. In trying to accomodate everybody, they damage everybody. Chickenshit cowards is what I call them. All of them. From either party
Oh for god’s sake… And the winner in the catagory of “you cant have it both ways” is MAX!
So max is anti-FDR, on the grounds of Socialism! Socialism!
And now we are supposed to think she’s pro-union and FDR was wrong for not being pro-union enough?
Nice try at putting on both faces. Big eye roll.
To quote my favorite president…
GIVE ME A BREAK
Actually, I havent heard too many “man on the street” types say they think this rebate is a good thing. I actually think most folks see it for what it is. Smoke and mirrors to cover for MORE tax breaks for the wealthy. Crumbs for the average folks with prime rib for the top one percent.
To quote the preznit, “fool me once, uh..heheh.”
Farmgrrl, from what I’ve read on every thread, day after day all she posts are negatives, accusations; there seem to be no positive words in her repertoire.
ksfarmgrrl
Posted January 25, 2008 at 2:02 pm | Permalink
Actually, I havent heard too many “man on the street” types say they think this rebate is a good thing.
The Kansas City Star asked readers what they would do with the money. I was surprised to read the majority said they would save it in some fashion or the other. Few said they would spend it, and some said they would pay off debt.
So much for stimulus.
Agreed Amway. Everyone I’ve talked to about it says they will do with it some variation of “stick it under the mattress”.
I think we all know there are going to be some bad economic times ahead, and we all know we dont have enough of a cushion to wait it out.
I’m spending mine or garden seed and canning equipment…
I am not affluent, but every last penny of my stimulus is going to savings. I’ll need it there when the real chickens come home to roost.
24% is the proportion of our debt that is owed to foreign countries – China being the largest holder of U.S. debt.
Heck of a job…
“Smoke and mirrors to cover for MORE tax breaks for the wealthy”
You mean, like giving a tax rebate to those who pay know taxes?
How about
“Smoke and mirrors to cover for MORE giveaways to people who pay no tax?
I’ll spend my refund on something slinky from the cat o log….
gifthorse
mouth
a concept…
Going to spend mine on beer, cigarettes, and condoms. Might as well enjoy life, as the economy is going in the toilet.
Oh, crap. I forgot. Don;t drink much beer, quick smoking, and don;t need condoms since I am married
with the possibility of having any more children gone. Maybe i can buy lottery tickets, and thus give the state of kansas a boost.
Hmmm… maybe I should convert my $1.5K to gold. Won’t buy much gold, but it will do better than our depreciating currency.
LJ, you think Laffer lives?
hehehehheheheheheheheheheh…..
Amway,
The National Debt Tax (NDT)is a great idea!
You need to make sure though that you make it “age” progressive.
Not progressive based on “income”, but progressive based on age of the taxpayer.
Why?
Because those old farts who have been around longer, who voted many more times for these folks up in Congress, are more responsible for the National Debt then some 20-year-old entering the workforce today.
Retired 62+ pays $400/month NDT
Retired 62+ with AARP discount pay $450/month NDT
Age 50+ pays $300/month NDT
Age 40+ pays $200/month NDT
Age 30+ pays $100/month NDT
Age 20+ pays $50/month NDT
That should make Capn happy. He wanted the Debt paid-off faster then the 45 year plan I suggested.
Probably. But everyone lies about how to use his work. bass turds
To state the obvious here, we’re in a world of hurt. There is no way to fix it until POLICY is changed. The income tax is the biggest fraud pulled on us and until we get the FED out of the equation, get back to hard money and cut insane war spending, things will never change, regardless of which party’s puppet is in office. This goes waaay beyond Bush, Clinton, whomever. Until that is understood, we’ll just keep fighting for scraps of what’s left of “The American Dream”. And that will just be a dream until We The People wake up and make our lives better. As much as you don’t want to admit it, maybe it’s because he ain’t “pretty”, but in any case, Ron Paul is dead on right.
We people don’t like to admit when we are wrong, but we have to. Otherwise it is insanity and we’ll live out the rest of our lives regretting not doing something about it. Our educational system has left all of us in the dark and ignorant about what it is that has made America great.
It’s not about owning up to cutting down a fu**ing cherry tree, that’s for sure, hell these people have proved that lying pays. It’s about us realizing our inherent right to ourselves and taking care of our own and keeping the fruits of our labor. That sounds like frilly, idealistic gobbletygook I know, but it’s true.
I’m done now.
Well, we’ll be using ours to fund (at least in part) our travels to Maine in late May to attend the younger’s college graduation.
Steven, silver follows gold for those of us without the funds to buy gold.
hehehheheh. Or right now, you could buy wheat!
Max Posted January 25, 2008 at 2:16 pm | Permalink
“You need to make sure though that you make it “age” progressive.”
I was thinking the National Debt belongs to all of us, so we are equally responsible to pay it off. I “could” be progressive my proposal, albeit bass ackward from your suggestion – just as long as EVERY wage earner contributes something.
Can you see it?
If the NDT was enacted, EVERY TIME OUR CONGRESS AND PRESIDENT PASS BILLS INCREASING THE DEBT (borrowing) IT WOULD BE IMMEDIATELY VISIBLE TO ALL AMERICANS.
The benefit would be a better appreciation of what
deficit spending truly is.
Additionally, if it is possible, I would have this payment go to principle, while we continue to pay the annual national debt interest payment through the general fund.
Like a mortgage payment, where you have P&I. If you contribue to the principle, you can see the interest payment/amount decreasing.
MonkeyHawk: I found the assertion that 1 in 5 Iraq vets come home with brain damage hard to believe. So I did some checking and found some good news. They were referring to mild TBI, (a concussion). If you’ve ever played football, basketball or other rough activities, you’ve probably had one. You usually recover from those in relatively short order.
Congress can not act quickly enough to avert any recession, if one is comming.
Furhtermore, while I would agree that what Congress has planned, so far, might not do a whole lot of good, it won’t do much harm, either. This is for political show.
Now to the demogogue leftists, on this Blog: I do not think anyone making over $150,000.00 a year will get anything, directly, from this plan, other than any benefit from an improved economy, if it helps.
I think the foreign market slide, on MLK day, and the US slide, followed by the Fed .75% rate cut, should be taken into context.
A very large contributor, to this weeks volatility, was a French computer hacker, who worked for one of the largest banks in France:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/worldnews.html?in_article_id=510089&in_page_id=1811
http://www.iht.com/articles/2008/01/24/business/socgen.php
Cause and effect. The Fed did not move, specifically, due to this French guy, but the markets over reacted, greatly, when the French bank reversed Billions of dollars of trades, all at once.
The market volitility did have something to do with the Fed action, and the Congressional action.
littlejohn
Posted January 25, 2008 at 1:57 pm | Permalink
lindainks55
“while politically popular, isn’t going to do what the politicians hope they can fool us into believing will help the economy of the United States. All they want is the PERCEPTION they are doing something helpful.”
I can’t help asking myself, “Aren’t our politicians just giving us what we want?”
“We” demand rebates. They have been tried before sometimes with limited success (but I think temporary). But regardless of the economic success, they were POLITICALLY successful. Why? Because no one complains about getting FREE MONEY.
There are no consequences for our actions. Deep down, we KNOW there are consequences, but we don’t FEEL them. “Aw, let the rich people pay for them.” “Aw, let the corporations pay for them.” “Aw let the wall street types pay for them.”.
Immediate gratification. That’s what our country lives on. Average credit card debt over $7,000 for each American. Some have much higher! At interest rates in double digits – it will take 30 years to pay it off.
I’m wondering if tightwad me, is one of few who lives my life (and family) within my means and have no recurring debt – except a house payment?
econ, my concern is the combined effects of the stimulus together with the rate cut leading to increased inflationary pressure without much, if any, “real” growth.
You are right, from what I read, a married couple filing a joint return with >$150,000 income doesn’t receive any direct benefit; for a “single” person, I believe the ceiling is $75,000. However, does this affect the eligibility for the $300 per child “extra” rebate amount? I can’t clear this up in my mind.
VT
It is time for a law that forces every Congressional Bill, in Congress, to be posted on the internet within 24 hours of introduction, same with any amendment.
Actually, econ, we’re both somewhat incorrect. It appears from the story linked in the header that there is a phase out of the rebate for families, such that there is some rebate received up to $186,000 AGI on a joint return. Yeah, note the AGI (”Adjusted Gross Income”) thing; as anyone with familiarity with the Code knows, there are “above the line deductions” that might lower the Gross Income (a/k/a Adjustments) to a lower AGI number. Thus, when econ and I were posting about $150,000, this is the AGI, not the gross income figure for determining eligibility. Thus, with both parties maximizing their IRA deductions, and if certain other adjustments apply, the couple’s gross income might well be higher than $150,000 but the AGI would be lower, thus entitling them to the full rebate. I’m not saying that this is anything wrong, but wanted to make it clear the income figures are AGI, not gross, income.
By the way, It looks like you might be able to qualify, under the new SCHIP program (if it ever passes) but not qualify, under this rebate —-
Is the SCHIP bill, that Bush vetoed, a “hand out to the rich”??
Vaughn you are not completely correct. Those making over 150K (combined) get the satisfaction of knowing their money went to fund trickle up economics AND helped a “poor” person.
KC Star today had quite a bit of info on the proposal as agreed upon by Demo leaders and the president. KCStar.com
Read something about a phase out range up to 174K (combined). Also, it looks like it’s AGI, and does not include pretax retirement plans deductions.
The way the article reads, I didn’t see a “cap” on total rebate. So if I read it correctly, six kids x $300 would be added to the income rebate amount.
There is a calculator at KCSTAR.com where you can compute your own estimate.
Of course, the details have not been worked out by the house/senate yet and changes may occur. (See comments from Rangle above).
So don’t go spending that money yet!
Yeah, econ, I agree; except the language of the bill would contain language such as “under paragraph (i) of subsection (a) of paragraph (3) of Section A of paragraph B of 26 USC section 1001, the words “(insert whatever language you want here)” shall be amended to read “(insert whatever other language you want here)” for the fiscal year ending September 31, 2008, or some such. No one without a lot of time and a current set of U.S. Code volumes would have the faintest idea what the devil is being said.
Thanks for the additional information, American Way. I knew it couldn’t be as “simple” as my first read of the story seemed to indicate. What you post makes sense vis a vis the not taking the IRA deduction, e.g., into account in arriving at what I’m sure is labeled “modified AGI” for purposes of the rebate eligibility. Again, thanks.
Vaughn you actually had more accurate figures than I on your later post. I had the high end phase out AGI incorrect. That wasn’t at my link.
Anyone with a link to more details that the Star?
“You mean, like giving a tax rebate to those who pay know taxes?
Know taxes are applied to those who know something; in which case few here would have to pay.
Also heard an unconfirmed rumor that the rebate amount will not add to 2007 income for next years taxes.
Would be nice if true. Then NONE of it gets put back in the federal kitty, and my AGI does not go up!
Time to leave. The insult posts have began.
This economic stimulus plan is a sham and Democrats and Republicans alike should be walking away from it. By the time the “rebate” checks come around, we will already be in recession and folks will just park the dough in the bank.
The only way this could be effective is if people actually spend the money to stimulate the economy before the recession sets in.
My son is 21 and he is planning to deposit his check in his account as soon as it hits the mailbox.
This plan is going to do nothing but add another $150 billion to the deficit.
Of course, what’s another $150 billion when you’re already in hock to the tune of $9.2 trillion?
After all it is just money.
“It’s Your Money”, as long as you don’t take into account your share of the National Debt! But the, “Debt doesn’t Matter”.
American Way, if you haven’t left yet, “Also heard an unconfirmed rumor that the rebate amount will not add to 2007 income for next years taxes.” was that to which I was referring the other day. Unconfirmed here, too, but there was something in President Bush’s remarks that alluded to the elimination (on a temporary basis) of the ten percent bracket for the year, the result of which as I thought it through was to make the rebate nontaxable.
The rebate before was not taxable. There is no reason to believe this one would be.
Tax refunds are not taxable, tax rebates would, generally, follow the same rule.
Exception would be, State taxes, deducted on a Federal return, that were later refunded by the State. Then the Feds would tax that State refund.
I’m pretty sure that this being tax return time will also double the effect of the stimulous plan, people receiving their refund for overpayments. will spend more of their return knowing that it will be replaced with the stimulous package check. In theory anyway.
BG, Econ – agreed both.
Krugman attacks the plan as follows:
The goal of a stimulus plan should be to support overall spending, so as to avert or limit the depth of a recession. If the money the government lays out doesn’t get spent — if it just gets added to people’s bank accounts or used to pay off debts — the plan will have failed.
And sending checks to people in good financial shape does little or nothing to increase overall spending. People who have good incomes, good credit and secure employment make spending decisions based on their long-term earning power rather than the size of their latest paycheck. Give such people a few hundred extra dollars, and they’ll just put it in the bank.
In fact, that appears to be what mainly happened to the tax rebates affluent Americans received during the last recession in 2001.
On the other hand, money delivered to people who aren’t in good financial shape — who are short on cash and living check to check — does double duty: it alleviates hardship and also pumps up consumer spending.
That’s why many of the stimulus proposals we were hearing just a few days ago focused in the first place on expanding programs that specifically help people who have fallen on hard times, especially unemployment insurance and food stamps. And these were the stimulus ideas that received the highest grades in a recent analysis by the nonpartisan Congressional Budget Office.
*****
But of course those plans were scrapped by Bush ideologues. It doesn’t support what he called his “base, the haves and the have-mores.”
Just heard the next Senator of the State of Kansas at a luncheon this pm, Greg Ormand.
He called this plan the “re-elect the incumbants” stimulus package.
Had oversight been doing its job–the job that Worst. President. Ever. vowed to not let gov’t do–the mortgage melt-down couldn’t have happened.
Mr. Ormand is correct IMO, Capn; the type and kind of “relief” offered in the stimulus package is precisely politically driven, to aid in reelection. From all my previous posts, I’m sure you know I don’t think it will work, and be counterproductive as increasing inflationary pressures.
Interesting, VT.
This Greg Ormand fellow looks like the real deal, self-made millionaire, grew up on gov’t cheese in a family of ten.
If people get the chance to hear him, they’re going to like him.
It’s really time to let Old Pat retire to his home state of Virginia.
I think I’ll just piss it all away and buy that camera (Japanese, so the money won’t go to China – as if it mattered) I’ve been wanting. I know full well the whole thing is a sham to make Washington look good, hoping we will forget that they screwed up in the first place. But what the hey, now I can get the camera. Maybe I can sell some of the photos and put money back into the economy.
“outlander” offers –
“If you’ve ever played football, basketball or other rough activities, you’ve probably had [a TBI, i.e., a "Traumatic Brain Injury."]
So you’re now equating a battlefield brain injury with playing basketball?
Why do you so hate the troops?
I have no idea if, say, “Nathan” is among the one-in-five Iraq War veterans who suffered brain damage. I can only look at the evidence.
But for you, “outlander” to belittle and demean the brain damage suffered by 20% of of our brave fighting men and women is contemptable.
The condition is called TRAUMATIC *BRAIN* *INJURY!!! f’r chrissakes!
Perhaps your brain is so inadequate that Traumatic Brain Injury wouldn’t affect you all that much, “outlander.” It’s hard to lose what you never had, after all.
It depends on how much the checks are and who gets them. If they are $1200 or so and they go to mostly people under $120,000 a year, they will be spent in ways that really will give the economy a shot in the arm. $1200 is a good vacation or a down payment on a home or car. But this little $300 crap they are talking about won’t really do anything.
Let’s just file bankruptsy and tell china we are starting all over. Oh but wait, china makes about everything in the whold world and even if they forgave everything we owe them now they would soon have all our money anyway.
Kev, the $300 amount is to go to those with AGIs of at least $3000 who otherwise don’t pay income tax. Also, if that person is in a family (I presume head of household status, too) with qualifying children (unknown as to definition), I believe there would be $300 multiplied by the number of said children as well in addition, as I read the stories on the plan.
If the NDT was enacted, EVERY TIME OUR CONGRESS AND PRESIDENT PASS BILLS INCREASING THE DEBT (borrowing) IT WOULD BE IMMEDIATELY VISIBLE TO ALL AMERICANS. American Way
————————————————
You want to make Federal Spending very visible?
Then eliminate tax withholding.
And make the Federal Government send a Monthly Bill.
When taxpayers have to write a check every month to the Federal Government, they may pay a little more attention to it.
Put some detail on that bill to. Say:
National Debt Portion: $175
Current Federal Spending: $350
Total amount due by February 1, 2008: $425
The same should be true for what some here call Payroll taxes:
Fica and Medicare
“Payroll taxes” sounds so nice doesn’t it? Like a lilly white lamb on your paystub.
As if your PAYROLL department calculates some benevolent “Payroll Tax” for everyone who EARNS money.
A tax on Payroll.
A tax on Payday.
Well, instead of withholding all this, send everyone a Bill every month, and make everyone write a check for that amount.
Oh, and the Federal Government should have to provide a “Disclosure” statement in “plain language” to xplain what the bill is for.
Funny, the Federal Government requires Truth In Lending Disclosures for Banks to disclose all fees and costs for a loan, and this must be detailed to the penny!
The Federal Government doesn’t require anything, of itself.
If the NDT was enacted, EVERY TIME OUR CONGRESS AND PRESIDENT PASS BILLS INCREASING THE DEBT (borrowing) IT WOULD BE IMMEDIATELY VISIBLE TO ALL AMERICANS. American Way
You want to make the Federal Taxes truly visible?
Get rid of withholding.
The Federal Government should send a bill every month. They should have to itemize what the bill is for.
There should be a Disclosure Requirement where the Feds provide detail to the penny for what you are paying and why.
If you get a loan from a bank, the Federal Government requires the bank to produce a Truth In Lending Disclosure. This must detail the costs and fees of the loan to the penny.
If not disclosed properly, you don’t owe it!
Why should the Federal Government NOT live up to the same disclosure requirements IT mandates on business?
Why?
Because the Federal Government is NOT accountable to The People.
IF they were, they would have to disclose:
Current Budget taxes: $375
National Debt taxes: $150
Social Security: $225
Medicare: $ 75
Total due to the Federal Government by Feb 1, 2008: $825
If the NDT was enacted, EVERY TIME OUR CONGRESS AND PRESIDENT PASS BILLS INCREASING THE DEBT (borrowing) IT WOULD BE IMMEDIATELY VISIBLE TO ALL AMERICANS. American Way
If you want to make Federal Taxes truly visible, then get rid of Payroll Withholding.
Make the Government send a bill every month detailing what you owe.
And require a Disclosure Statement detailing to the penny what you owe.
The Federal Government requires Banks to provide a Truth in Lending Disclosure statement when you get a loan. This must detail all interest and fees and costs that you will pay.
Guess what? If that disclosure doesn’t list the fees correctly, the bank CANNOT charge you beyond what they show on the disclosure!
Why should the Government not require the same Disclosure for itself, that it requires for Business?
Why?
Because the Government is NOT accountable to The People.
And Payroll tax, sounds so nice doesn’t it? Like a lilly white lamb.
As if there was a tax levied by your Payroll Department at the Company you work for.
It’s Social Security and Medicare you idiots! Call a spade a spade!
Make the Government send a Monthly Bill detailing what you owe and providing Full Disclosure!
Here’s your next bill from the Federal Government:
Current Budget Year Tax: $350
National Debt Tax: $150
Social InSecurity Tax: $200
Medicare Tax: $ 50
Total Due by Feb 1, 2008: $750
If taxpayers have to write a check every month, and we are provided with a full Disclosure, then the taxes we pay will be VERY VISIBLE!
Course the Government wants to discretely take your money for Payroll Taxes, to make you FEEL better about it.
Oh, and about this “stimulous” Federal Handout,
If I recall correctly when this was done previously in 2003, this Federal Refund will be TAXED by the State you live in!
That’s right!
Don’t cash that check and spend it all!
You’ll have to pay some of that money to your state for state taxes.
In 2003, this was quite the windfall for state governments.
Capn
Please stop making wild statements and study the issues for a moment.
What Federal or State Government authority could have “prevented the mortgage meltdown”?
The market it working.
The Mortgage business has made some bad loans.
The investment and investment banking business is in the process of “correcting” that error, by renegotiating and “marking to the market” the value of that paper.
Many subprime mortgages, most of them, in fact, are doing just fine.
Any restrictions, by the government, on such lending, in the future, will only reduce the number of people who can ever hope to own their own homes.
Again, Capn, NAME a government agency that could possibly have prevented the realestate bubble from happening?
Do we want a government that “prevents” such bubbles in the future?
Yes, there were some very irresponsible and abusive lenders. What is your point? There have always been unscrupulous people in the realestate business. Look at Castel Grande and Whitewater. Heck, look at Rezko and the Clintons!
Yes, there have also been some irresponsible borrowers. There always have been. Do we want “nanny state” government to determine who can, and can not, qualify for a loan?
Capitalism, as its heart, means the “freedom to fail”.
Let the private sector work this out, and our economy, and our country, will be stronger for the experience.
Keep the government out of it, other than enforcing existing laws.
Any further regulation will only reduce the opportunity of many Americans to own their own home.
VT
If we are truly in a recession, inflationary pressure is a moot point.
Recessions are a very blunt object to combat inflation, but recessions do pretty much kill the inflation boogey man.
However, if we are NOT in a recession, you are correct, monetary and fiscal stimulous, at the tail end of a historic economic boom, might bite us all in the ass, in the form of inflation.
Econ is right.
The Mortgage Bailout has already happened.
What our Government is saying with this bailout:
“You have NO personal responsibility for the financial decisions that you make.”
The next step will be for Government to take over the home purchase decision for all.
1. Tell you where to live.
2. Tell you what mortgage to sign.
3. Remind you to make your payments.
4. If you can’t, that’s ok, the Government will bail you out.
Max
It is called “moral hazard” — it is the reason that people still make bad building decisions in flood zones and hurricane zones.
They know that the government might “bail them out”.
That is what CAUSES speculative bubbles, in the first place: people get disconnected from “risk” — we would simply plant the seeds for more problems, down the road.
I know some very good people who lost their homes, over the years, due to health issues, layoffs, honest business failures, etc.
I guess it was just their bad luck to face forclosure on their own, without all the public sympathy and political tripe we hear, today.
If you screw up, make sure you screw up BIG, and make sure that you have plenty of company.
That way, the government will bail you out!
I am not being cold hearted here, not at all.
I am simply making the point that, if we seperate risk from ownership, people will make dumb decisions, in every market.
“I am not being cold hearted here, not at all.”
Naw, Paul the Con would NEVER be cold hearted.
And if you believe that, you will also believe that Milli Vanilli was a very talented vocal group.
MAX — The last time they did this refund check thing was in 2002… I was still in New Mexico then…
Max — Can you even begin to imagine how much it would COST the Government (tax dollars) to send out a monthly bill to every tax payer every month?? It would cost a FORTUNE!!
And YOU Max, would want some of your hard earned TAX Dollars to be spent on some ridiculous fiasco of monthly billings???
MAX, why are you so obcessed with MONEY???
All the time, MONEY, MONEY, MONEY!!!
The Mortgage Bailout has already happened
What our Government is saying with this bailout
Republicans can be socialists?
Of course then can, Ken, IF it puts money in their pockets!! LOL
Econ, it is difficult for them to Mark to Market, when said market doesn’t exist. If they then write them down to 0, the world is in a World of Hurt! There’s talk about bailing out the underwriters now, also. This thing is going to end up costing us more than the Reagan S&L debacle before it’s over.
If there had been more oversight, these loans would never have been made.
Why concerned about money Chas?
Because everytime I turn around, some Liberal is sticking their hand in my back pocket.
When you stop being so concerned about sticking your hand in my back pocket, I’ll stop being so concerned about money too.
Such a little person you are Max.
I don’t blame you in a way. I know you come about “yours” hard. You sell out your own dignity and self respect for a buck.
Forgive if some of us hope for better for you.
THIS JUST IN!!!!
I’ve changed my mind, John McCain does know economics. This is Earth-shattering!
In McCain’s defense, he defended not voting for all of bush’s tax cuts (like Romney did), saying if they hadn’t all passed this would could have been more neaningful.
“Oh, and about this “stimulous” Federal Handout”
Wasnt Max saying last week that this rebate was NOT a handout? And wasnt Max all for the rebate last week?
Heheheh. Which is it Max? A handout? Or not? Are you really for it? Or against it?
Whew. All that spinning makes it hard to keep track of the flip flops.
Econ asks–
“Again, Capn, NAME a government agency that could possibly have prevented the realestate bubble from happening?”
*****
The simple fact of the matter is that whatever is permitted to happen, will happen.
We didn’t have this crisis in the 70’s, in the 80’s, in the 90’s.
Why did we have it now?
Because some regulatory agency changed its policy or its enforcement.
The “realestate bubble” was not in anyway a cause, btw.
It was entirely an effect of deregulating mortgage markets which increased demand.
Doug
Posted January 25, 2008 at 1:20 pm | Permalink
$70 billion for businesses and a few hundred dollars for everyone else to look the other way so they don’t get upset that it’s just another excuse to give his campaign contributers another tax cut.
That’s my feeling too, Doug. Just some more corporate welfare. I’m sure the republicans are salivating over the fact they can do this and be applauded for it. And what really chaps my ass is corporations didn’t even realize that we were headed for a recession because they weren’t hurting yet, it was just us regular folk on main street, not wall street, that were suffering, and have been suffering for quite some time.
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