WE Blog

It seems we have yet to determine exactly who Mr. Tiahrt represents.

” Tiahrt has contended that such needle exchanges promote drug abuse and threaten children.”

Hey, Tiahrt’s logic was sound. Promote AIDS among junkies, and they die. They probably weren’t voting Republican anyway.

I have a problem with enabling illegal drug users…would those who engage in risky behaviors even take precautions by untilizing the program? I don’t know. When you think of the cost to this country due to peope’s drug addictions, why SHOULD we spend even more trying to protect people from the consequences of their choices?
Maybe it would make more sense to put the money towards drug prevention and rehab, not making it less painful for drug addicts to continue their self destructive behaviors.
BTW, what are the laws concerning pharmacies selling needles to people without prescriptions?
I’m just curious, does anyone know?

I do not agree that the government should be using tax money to hand out needles to use in what is essentially an illegal activity. That amounts to double speak. It is like the government that says “drugs are highly illegal” and “say not to drugs” and even in fact will give you 10 years in prison for selling a bong to smoke marijuana in can turn around and say “oh and by the way here is a needle to shoot Heroin with”. What the hell kind of logic is THAT? I will however say that I do support the clean needle program and think it is well worthwhile. I just think it should be privately funded.

I don’t know about pharmacies but you can buy syringes all day long at TSC. I buy a lot there. Routine and emergency care for my goats, sheep and horses.

You can also buy several medicines OTC for livestock that you would need a prescription for human use.

I had a goat that got tore up pretty bad buy the neighbor’s dog. I was cleaning, bandaging and giving antibiotics twice a day. I always seemed to have syringes in my possession.

I was at the city court house getting diversion for a speeding ticket and waiting in line to get through security I was pulling stuff out of my jacket pocket when two syringes fell out on the floor.

The kid behind me yelled, “They’re not mine man!” and left. Never saw him again. I picked up the syringes, put them in the envelope and picked them up when I left.

Security didn’t even seem curious as to why I had syringes. They asked no questions and I volunteered no information.

If addicts weren’t addicts this program wouldn’t even be on the radar. Addicts don’t exist because of enabling. They exist because of a dependence on substances that substitute for the addicts’ own ability to overcome a sense of pain, powerlessness, dispair, etc. and achieve a sense of well-being and accomplishment. Many of the drugs addicts use are 100% addictive, meaning the user is addicted the very first time he uses. No one is sticking a needle in his arm over weeks and months forcing him to become addicted. And, I’ve never seen an addict who stopped being addicted to something: alcoholics become shopaholics, drug addicts become Jesus addicts, food addicts become chain smokers….

Addicts don’t stop being addicts. But, needle exchange programs that provide clean needles to addicts keep addicts from being HIV/AIDS infected addicts. Anyone with a conscience and any degree of human kindness will get that that is a benefit to us all.

How is enabling addicts to maintain their habit a benefit to society?
Do you realize what it costs taxpayers to support non productive people? I have little sympathy for those who are non productive by choice. As I said before, they only take away valuble resources from those who truly need to be taken care of, like the disabled or the elderly.
No one forces an addict to put a needle in his/her arm..it IS their choice.
Drunk drivers are a menace on the road.. so should society pay for free cab rides for them to and from the bars?
When are we going to get back to the idea in our country that peple need to be responsible for their own lives and their own mistakes? If an addict has to sleep under a bridge or go hungry due to his addiction, maybe that’s just the incentive he needs to get straight and sober. Keeping people comfortable in their dysfunctional behaviors does nothing to help them get well.

Caruso and Tiahrt ‘Have seen the needle and the damage done’ so Let them pay the price to have theri fun!

Maybe with a needle exchange program, fewer would be left on playgrounds and other public areas.

Public restrooms encourage deviant sexual behavior! Ban them all.

“Maybe with a needle exchange program, fewer would be left on playgrounds and other public areas.”

I was thinking the same thing, that it could be about destroying used needles, as much as it is the sharing of them.

BTW, I’ve switched back to my original nic. Those who know me will know, and those who don’t won’t care. :)

I would be conflicted on this one, except for the obvious point that needle exchange programs can not possibly be very effective, to begin with.
Let me say that many of the pro and con on this thread, have made some good points.
These are the types of arguments I like to see on this thread.
(Ignoring Doug and Rage and those posts that say that those who are against needle exchange programs are “heartless” of course.)

What type of personalities are we talking about here?
Do you envision people who brush their teeth every night and every morning, take a bath or shower every day, pay their bills on time, recycle their own aluminum cans, volunteer at the soup kitchen, support other family members and friends when they need help of some kind, and belong to “neighborhood watch”?

Some of you seem to think we are talking about the character “Flanders” on the Simpsons cartoons.

There is every reason to believe that the needles that the government gives away will be used over and over again, by multiple users.

For Heaven’s sake, junkies are injecting an illegal substance, of unknown origin and unknown purity, into their bodies! — However, they will, by your liberal logic, be responsible enough to drop by the “needle exchange” office in between trips to the recycling center and their volunteer shift at the local soup kitchen?

Come on! We are dealing with very irresponsible people. Needle exchange programs will replace existing needles will replace needles that get broken or lost. They will ONLY be clean the first time they are used. After that — they will be used again and again.

I do have some rather Libertarian views about marijuana, but Heroin is another matter, entirely.

We can do NOTHING to prevent AIDS among junkies. All we can do is work towards reducing the appeal of being a junkie, through education and enforcement. Most of the addictive personalities, out there, can not be saved.

Not from drugs.

Not from AIDS.

The exchange program can not possibly do any positive good. It can certainly cause harm. Therefore, it should not continue.

Tiahrt was right.

Your problem Paul is that the exchange programs are effective and work. But you are a conservative so your policy is to not think about things and pretend there really isn’t a problem. Like Tiahrt you should get out of the way so the responsible adults can take care of the problems while you rant about flag burnings and gay marriages.

Problem is Paul numerous studies point to the effectiveness of the program. I can present the facts but you’ll just ignore them. Your policy of doing nothing has caused D.C. to hive the highest rates of infection in the country. I’m sure you are proud of that.

Chas
You have provided at least a small, possible benefit of an exchange program: counseling and possible rehab.
However, if the attempt to get the junkie into rehap is the least bit “pushy” you will only discourage participation.

Doug
The incubation time for HIV/AIDS is a very long time.
There is no possible way to determine if this program, or some other program, is responsible for any increase or decrease in AIDS.

There IS common sense: we can not STOP these needles from being used on more than one person!

Therefore, the stated goal of this program is obviously not accomplished by this program.

It appears to me from the studies done in D.C. that by far, the problem is with unprotected sex by hetereo and homosexuals. Plus sixty percent stated the article.

How are “free needles” going to help prevent the spread of AIDS when there is a rampant problem with unprotected sex?

The answer: It won’t – it’s a feel good eyewash program.

“No study CAN be made on this issue.”

Nope, numerous studies have been done of the effectiveness of needle exchange programs. Clearly you have never looked at one so you are speaking based on your uninformed opinion. How typically conservative. I’m thinking you don’t even know what goes on in these programs.

Let me break it down for you since you are incapable of informing yourself on the subject. Studies show that those who are educated about how AIDS in spread through the sharing of needles are less likely to share needles. Those areas which provide free needle exchange not only provide this education but provide a supply of clean needles. Areas without exchange programs don’t offer clean needles (causing people to resort to dirty ones) and don’t offer education (resulting in higher chances of sharing needles).

Studies looked at those areas with programs and with education and those without and compared the rates of infection through drug use. Guess what? Those places with exchange programs had lower rates of infection.

Goodness, that would imply that the program works but you insist there are no studies and the programs don’t work. In other words, as usual, you don’t know what you are talking about. There’s a program called Google, try looking up information on the subject.

Doug
We have opinions of people who can not back up their political preferences.
The “studies” are worthless.
You know, very well, that is what I meant.

Hell, we can not trust political opinion polls from adults who are responsible enough to vote.

How in the Hell can we trust survey questions, about private matters, asked of irresponsible people?

Again, your studies are not worth a dime.

Much less, a “dime bag”.

I looked on the Internet and can’t find any studies that aren’t at least a decade old or older.

The one study I found that San Fransisco has, said the introduction of clean needles “MAY” have reduced drug use (not AIDS reduction.)

It stated nothing about reducing the incidence of AIDS from IV Drug use and a correlation with clean needles.

Since syringes can hold AIDS infected fluids, why not syringes as well?

From what I read, it appears that needle sharing is drug culture habit and technique.

I well imagine that IV Drug users will use prostitution so they can get funds for their drugs. Since in D.C. anyway, the higher percentage is from sexual contact, the spread of AIDS is not being thwarted by the use of condoms.

I think it is a feel good program for those who want to feel good about doing something. There is nothing on the Internet that I can find, that definitively states clean needles reduces AIDS from IV Drug users.

Show me, I’m unconvinced. Not generic statements, show the statistics if there are any current ones.

Couldn’t open that address The Phantom, says it’s not associated with http or something.

rs Posted January 6, 2008 at 1:51 am

It seems we have yet to determine exactly who Mr. Tiahrt represents.

Well rs,

It would seem that Congressman Tiahrt represents the good people of the 4th Congressional District of Kansas. Evidently, quite well since we send him back every two years!

The good people of Kansas, by and large, are good Christian, hard working, law abiding citizens. Generally they would be aghast at the prospect of facilitating illegal drug use.

This thread does little more than demonstrate the extent that the editors of the Eagle are left of their readers.

Do you know what it costs to treat AIDS patients? Compare that to the cost of clean needles. No brainer, duh.

That’s nice Mod, now where are the statistics.

Show me a study where IV Drug users will not share a clean needle with a buddy. That action defeats the purpose of a clean needle program.

Why haven’t Bill and Melinda Gates donated to the clean needle program? Do they know something we don’t or do they want to concentrate funds in areas where addressing the causes have been determined by accurate studies?

Let’s see some statistics and proof that the clean needle program works. I finally got The Phantom’s link to work, it was an opinion piece, not one from scientific study.

Hank Price writes This thread does little more than demonstrate the extent that the editors of the Eagle are left of their readers.

Then how do you explain The Eagle’s ringing endorsement of Tiahrt every time he stands for election?

I think The Eagle editors are somewhat left of YOU, Hank.

That’s because they think.

Google is your friend:

Here’s the first half of the first page of responses after I Googled “needle exchange” and “success.”

Rice University | Study confirms success of needle exchange programs in combating spread of AIDS.
http://www.explore.rice.edu/explore/NewsBot.asp?

Drug abuse treatment success among needle exchange participants.Drug abuse treatment success among needle exchange participants. R Brooner, M Kidorf, V King, P Beilenson, D Svikis, and D Vlahov …
http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?artid=1307735

Off the Wires – October 1999
Baltimore officials report that their 5-year-old needle exchange program is a success.
http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/416775

F’ton needle exchange a success.www.cbc.ca/news/story/2000/06/07/nb_kbneedle_000607.html

Do a little homework next time, “Econ101″

Monkey
Bull
No study is worth its salt.
They can’t be.
You are dealing with too many variables, with a very unstable population.
The needles we give away will be used, again and again.
We have only the word of the junkies about what they do, once they get a clean needle.

Econ, thats just a bunch of Horse Hockey!! You just dont want to HELP these people, as if they are worse than you, or you are better than they are… Whatever it is, it SUCKS!!!

These people are using ILLEGAL DRUGS… And YOU and REGULAR sit here wanting to see STATISTICS??

Sometimes, in this world, it is just RIGHT to do something to reach out to those less fortunate…

How much like “KANSAS” REGULAR writes!! LOL

Say, Regular,

How did posting at DemUnderground go for you?

It’s “voila!” you dipswitch.

What a maroon.

AgHawk — Nice try at defending your spelling mishap… IF you actually intended to use Wallah, you used it incorrectly >>>

Noun 1. wallah – usually in combination: person in charge of or employed at a particular thing; “a kitchen wallah”; “the book wallah”

You might want to look up ALL of the usages???

ONE MORE — for the Intent that AgHawk was going for >>>>

http://www.m-w.com/dictionary

You are correct, Chas.

The Indian word “wallah” (which the British under the Raj borrowed freely as in “box wallah”–a salesman who carries boxes) isn’t pronounced the same as “voila.”

The Indian word is accented on the first syllable while the French phrase is accented on the second–also the French “v” isn’t exactly the same sound as our “w”. More like “vhw.”

But thanks for a ridiculous attempt to cover your egregious error, AgHawk/Regular.

You’re funnier than Jackass and cheaper than cable . . .

Thanks Phantom… I knew there were some studies out there, I just didnt think they would likely be found at CDC, or other – ahem – “politically correct” sources…

And lest we forget… It isnt JUST HIV/AIDS that can be helped by NEP’s… Other diseases as well can benefit from an NEP… Hepatitis, Other STD’s, and even TB!! Probably more, too! It is an opportunity to Make A Difference, without asking for somebody’s doctoral study, to back it up… JUST DO IT to help people!! We are lacking a lot in that department lately!!

BTWE, AgHaswk, who died and left you in charge of such things?? Or did you just move in and take it over?? LOL And you STILL arent using the #1 definition!!

NOTE >>>

“Noun 1. wallah – usually in combination: person in charge of or employed at a particular thing; “a kitchen wallah”; “the book wallah””

I don’t post at Democratic Union, I’ve ever visited the site. Is it any good?

Guess the discussion is over here.

Something about wallah or whatever.

As “regular” wisely stated;
“Guess the discussion is over here.”

I suspect the lack of very many (if any) studies on the subject have been undertaken because of those who have until recently controlled the government.
The RW likes to make a determination (usually based on philosophical/religious bent)using 10% of their mental capacity, then use the other 90% trying to justify their position.
Fortunately, the dawn of the re-awakening is at hand, and sanity once again will triumph. The ogres will be forced back into their caves, and like Al-Quida in Pakistan, re-group.

Why does every discussion have to desolve into a name calling, chest thumping, power struggle? This is why there is so much war, because men get adrenaline rushes from fighting. It’s stupid…everyone has different ideas and opinions, if you want others to respect what you have to say, I’d suggest you not get personal and rude because someone disagrees with you.

Anyway, back to the subject. Chas…by giving people needles to shoot up with, you’re not “helping” them…there is no such thing as a responsible addict, and you can’t make them responsible by giving them clean needles.
We as a society have to start allowing people the consequences of their poor choices, that’s the only way to save our culture. It used to be that stupid and risky behavior was a tool for weeding the gene pool…by trying to take care of everyone who is stupid and risk taking, we’ve just enlarged the pool of stupid people so much that it has become an ever increasing burden to the rest of us who are responsible. We should take care of ourselves and those who can’t take care of themselves. Let those who CHOOSE not to take care of themselves have the consequences of their choices. I really don’t care if they get AIDS and die…I’ll save my time and energy for the ones who would love to have a chance to live a healthy life, but can’t through no fault of their own.

Chas
CARE all you want.

The “do something, even if it is wrong” argument still does not hold up.

Good intentions do not solve problems.

Oh, I see.. Emotion only works if we are talking baout gay marriage?? Doesnt extend to dope users, eh?? How predictable you guys are!! Besides, Phantom already cited two studies done upthread… Did you miss those??

Phantom provided some statements with no sources. I saw them and statements without sources is not worth a second glance.

What does gay marriage have to do with the needle exchange program Chas?

Numerous people who have worked on the streets with these addicted people… ANY of us can tell you that the NEP does work… AND, in some cases… not nearly enough… People DO seek out cure and Rehab… The NEP is just ONE way to get these addicts into a clinic setting, where they actually have the resources for cure and rehab… For some, it works… Sadly, for many others, it doesnt!! I have worked many hours on the streets reaching out to these people… And I for one can tell you, NEP DOES WORK!!

Can you show studies that show it doesnt??

Ummm Mary?? I have not said ONE WORD about religious reasons… I dont NEED a religious reason to get somebody off of DOPE… And of course, you dont DO IT for them… Nobody can do that!! BUT — We can at LEAST make the resources available!!

Again, please dont try to mix religion into this… It isnt about religion… I have known a few addicts over the years who were/are very devout believers… Christians as well as others… Addiction knows no “boundaries” of Holy Books…

Mary caruso,
Simply excellent!

What those that disagree with you have failed to understand is even if they got their way with all this enabling help they want to give, out of other people’s pockets by the way, nature and the ongoing consequences of the addicts behavior will take them out.
Your’s was a very sensible suggestion, I fear it is wasted on those you are trying to enlighten though.

Read my previous post, Monkey..that will explain to you why I feel the way I do.
I have spent my whole career in service helping people. I won’t waste my time trying to help people who don’t want to be helped, because it takes time and energy away from those who DO want help.
Sorry if I seem “callous”. Maybe if you walked in my shoes for the last 20 yrs, you could feel the same way I do. When I see an addict dying from AIDS, or any other self induced illness (and I’ve seen more than a few), I feel sad that they wasted their precious gift of life, and I almost feel relieved when they’re gone..because they’re finally at peace and usually so is everyone else around them.

Regular
Posted January 6, 2008 at 7:49 pm | Permalink
What city did you work in for the needle exchange program Chas?

Surely you can guide us to some statistics from that city on its success.
================================

You know what?? You dont just get some addict to walk into a clinic, and get their name, address, and SSN, and then follow them around and watch to see what they do… THEY USE ILLEGAL DRUGS… It is a milestone enough just to get them to stop sharing needles!!

And I have worked in several different cities… and I am telling you… the NEP PROGRAMS DO WORK!! If you insist on seeing “statistics” then you are nothing more than a part of the problem, and have no intention of being a part of the solution!! You are just flaming and baiting… So, you will just have to accept the plain simple fact, that NEP’s DO in fact, WORK… Not in great numbers… but better have a few not sharing needles… than none…

Again, if you are so hell bent on statistics, why dont YOU come up with some statistics that show that the NEP’s dont work?? Hmmm???

Mary, I have read many and varied books on co-dependency.. It is a genuine problem, especially with family members of addicts and alcoholics…

I am not in the “rescue” business, nor do I want to be… I know full well that nothing I can do on the streets is going to CURE anybody… BUT, it is just plain factual that SOME of what is being done, can save the lives of others… by encouraging using “clean” needles… instead of sharing dirty needles!! THAT is the extent of what is being discussed here…

What happens with “rescue” or “intervention” is in the hands of other professionals… People who have the time, and energy, and will to do that kind of thing… I applaud their efforts… But, I am always aware that they could end up on MY doorstep, as co-dependents…

And hey, you all… this isnt just an URBAN problem anymore… There is plenty of abuse going on in small town/rural America… I can guarantee you that any number of those little small towns that the Dem and Rep candidates were barnstorming in Iowa have a surprisingly high number of addicts behind those lace curtains of Small Town America…. And, yea, those people need to stop sharing needles too!!

Yup. Typical JM tactics–look for a technical weakness of the opposition and just bully-rag it for all it’s worth.

Here ya go–dumbass:

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9F0CE1D81538F93BA25751C0A965958260

February 18, 1993
New York Needle Exchanges Called Surprisingly Effective
By MIREYA NAVARRO
New York City’s ambitious research effort to measure whether needle exchange programs can slow the spread of AIDS among intravenous drug users has attracted significant numbers of addicts and convinced many of them to share their needles less often, experts evaluating the program say.

Six months after the efforts began, the experts say that the city’s four demonstration programs — including a storefront to dispense hypodermic needles on the Lower East Side and outreach work on the streets in Harlem and the Bronx — have succeeded in enrolling 5,000 addicts, far more than in previous needle exchange programs in the city, both legal and illegal.

In addition, they say the new programs have not resulted in increased drug use. An Important Test Case

New York City’s efforts are an important test case because of the city’s large number of intravenous drug-users: an estimated 200,000, half of them believed to be infected with H.I.V., the virus that causes AIDS. Some critics have questioned whether needle exchange programs that have shown benefits in smaller cities would also work here.

But the program’s evaluators, led by Dr. Don C. Des Jarlais, director of research for Beth Israel Medical Center’s Chemical Dependency Institute, say that preliminary findings are consistent with results in other cities in Europe, Canada and the United States, including Tacoma, Wash., and Portland, Ore

. . .

“The preliminary data is very encouraging in terms of the interest in participating in the programs and the positive changes in behavior,” said the New York City Health Commissioner, Margaret A. Hamburg. “We can already look at these programs and say they have been beneficial, clearly to the people involved.”

So far, based on interviews with a randomly selected sample of 132 men and 62 women over the last four months, Dr. Des Jarlais said, “The early behavioral data shows no change in drug use since people started to use the exchanges and shows a decrease in sharing equipment.”

Participants reported injecting heroin or cocaine an average of 88 times a month, compared with 87 times before using the exchanges. The difference, Dr. Des Jarlais said, is not statistically significant. No Sign Plan Breeds Addicts

He said there was also no evidence so far that the programs had attracted or encouraged new addicts. Those interviewed said they had used drugs more than 16 years on average.

They also said they were sharing less: 20 percent said they still borrowed syringe needles from others, compared with 30 percent before using the programs; and 10 percent said they rented or bought used needles, compared with more than 25 percent earlier.

In the United States around 1/5 of all new HIV infections and the vast majority of Hepatitis C infections are the result of injection drug use [2]. Dozens of studies have shown needle exchanges to be effective at preventing the spread of HIV and Hepatitis C [3][4][5][6][7][8]. Needle exchange programs are supported by the Center for Disease Control and the National Institute of Health[9][10]. The National Institute of Health estimates that in the United States, between fifteen and twenty percent of injection drug users have HIV and at least seventy percent have hepatitis C[11].The presence of needle exchange programs has been attributed to a reduction of high-risk injection behavior by up to 74%[12].

Here are the studies it cites–

^ Bastos, FI. and Strathdee, SA. (2000) Evaluating effectiveness of syringe exchange programs: current issues and future prospects. Social Science & Medicine 51:1771-1782

^ Rich, Joseph D., Michelle McKenzie, Grace E. Macalino, Lynn E.Taylor, Stephanie Sanford-Colby, Francis Wolf, Susan McNamara, Meenakshi Mehrotra and Michael D. Stein (2004) A Syringe prescription program to prevent infectious disease and improve health of injection drug users. Journal of Urban Health: Bulletin of the New York Academy of Medicine 81:122-134
^ Des Jarlais, Don C., Courtney McKnight, and Judith Milliken. 2004. “Public Funding of US Syringe Exchange Programs. Journal of Urban Health: Bulletin of the New York Academy of Medicine 81:118-121,

^ Lurie, P., and Drucker, E. (1997). An opportunity lost: HIV infections associated with lack of a national needle exchange program in the USA. The Lancet349:604-608.

^ Drucker, E., Lurie, P., Wodak, A., and Alcabes, P. (1998). Measuring harm reduction: the effects of needle and syringe exchange programs and methadone maintenance on the ecology of HIV. AIDS 12:S217-230

^ Des Jarlais, D., Marmor M., Paone, D., Titus, S., Shi, Q., Perlis, T., Jose, B., and Friedman, S. (1996). HIV incidence among injection drug users in New York City syringe exchange programs. The Lancet 348:987-991.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Needle_exchange

*****

I’m sure that JM-Republican-Kansas-Regular, the scholar that he is, will thoroughly investigate all these technical studies.

:roll:

AgHawk writes

Fella, I’m hear to make your life miserable.

Heh, too bad for you then, Fella, far from making me miserable you’ve succeeded only in making yourself an object of ridicule for the merriment of the general readership.

Wallah! Maroon . . .

Fund the programs if you like yourself, just don’t lean on those that don’t support it.

AMEN to that, brother!

I could save thousands of dollars a year if I could withhold paying taxes that go to the Halliburton-Blackwater war machine.

I’m not looking for a technical weakness. What I’m looking for is conclusive studies that make the conclusions of the Presidential ordered studies of the 1990s suddenly change their conclusions.

The ruling on current funding of needle exchange programs was made in the decade prior to this one.

What current studies have been done to reverse the decisions of the studies of the 1990s?

The more I think about your idea, JM, the more I like it.

You and the CONs can spend TRILLONS on the military programs you love, and we libs can continue to have bake sales to fund the social programs we like.

Since more than 50 percent of all income taxes go to war and war contractors, you CONs will have one hell of a bill to pay . . .

Rich, Joseph D., Michelle McKenzie, Grace E. Macalino, Lynn E.Taylor, Stephanie Sanford-Colby, Francis Wolf, Susan McNamara, Meenakshi Mehrotra and Michael D. Stein (2004) A Syringe prescription program to prevent infectious disease and improve health of injection drug users. Journal of Urban Health: Bulletin of the New York Academy of Medicine 81:122-134

Start with that one, JM.

Let us know what they think . . .

:roll:

Regular — Open your little eyes, please?? CapN just gave you what you asked for, and even predicted you wouldnt read it… I for one am not going to give you anything more about this matter… Statistics wont solve a 20 cent out of pocket problem… Takes more than 20 cents to run a statistical study!! And guess what?? You are helping to pay for the services of the CDC, and the NIH!! Do you want to gripe about that too??

Mary, I know of a number of addicts who make incomes of more than $100,000 per year, and they pay a LOT more taxes than I do… But, I have encountered even a few of THOSE who share needles, or buy used needles… ANYthing to get that next FIX…. BTW, I dont know of any hard evidence that exists between the correlation of addicts and their children becoming addicts… If you have something on that, I would be happy to read it…

Addiction cuts across all racial/political/ economic/social/and religious strata… It is NOT just a “druggie on the street” problem… It might be easier dealt with if it was… But it’s not!!

And if we expand the addiction problem just ever so slightly, to include alcohol addiction, oh myyyy we have a really major problem!!

Again, Mary, I have not said ONE WORD about taking care of these people… Just get them into a NEP, where at least they cant unleash their diseases on others also less fortunate!!

Please dont turn this into an anti-welfare subject… Because I think you know very well, it isnt!! It is much more inclusive than welfare recipients!!

Regular, I tell ya what… you want studies, YOU find them… You havent rovided ANY links at all that show NEP’s do NOT work… So, just stop your friggin flaming… Cause, I am not playing your game… YOU go find the studies… YOU show some evidence for once… I have already offered first hand experiences, which obviously arent good enough for you… because that would mean you were wrong… So, YOU go find some studies, and post some links!! Good Luck!!!

Chas,

I didn’t realize I was flaming? Was I? Who did I flame? When did I flame?

I already provided an in depth analysis of some links here:

http://blogs.kansas.com/weblog/2008/01/tiahrt-out-of-the-way-of-dc-needle-exchanges/#comment-204497

Good evening Captain!

You queried:

“Then how do you explain The Eagle’s ringing endorsement of Tiahrt every time he stands for election?”

Easy my friend, even left leaning, socialist editors know the best candidate! The editors interview each of the major candidates and faced with the sorry choices the dems give us every two years Tiahrt is the standout best for the 4th district!

Oh for God’s sake, Hank..Tiahrt is an ass!!

That’s it. I’m going to go drink a beer and then go to bed!!
G’nite all!

From a fast perusal, I would conclude that because of the nature of the “beast” of addiction does not provide for many statistical studies – as has been pointed out.

However, there is also a lack of statistical studies from those opposed to NEP program, to show that such programs do not work!

Looks like pretty much of a stalemate, when it comes to statistical data… However, as NN points out, there is NOT enough data to conclude that the programs are NOT working, to abandon them!

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16809167?ordinalpos=11&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsPanel.Pubmed_RVDocSum

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9722812?ordinalpos=58&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsPanel.Pubmed_RVDocSum

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8557411?ordinalpos=4&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsPanel.Pubmed_RVDocSum

Yep. Ol’ Hank and all his money. Hank works for all his money. Tiahrt represents ALL the people in the 4th district. Even Mary Caruso! (Who, by the way has more money than Hank because she works harder than Hank)

All J R needs to know is that Tiahrt is a republican. When you’re part of the democratic constituency that falls for the ‘class envy’ politics of the left that’s all you need to know. No thought, no intelligence just ‘us and them’.

J R probably doesn’t even remember who ran against Tiahrt in 2006 or who’s running against him now.

An objective newspaper would have had a headline more like this:

Tiahrt Can’t Stop Democrat Majority Congress’ Funding of $650,000 For Washington DC Drug Addicts

It will be interesting to see if the free needles will increase or decrease HIV and drug use in the nations’s capital.

Congress is not calling for enforcement of existing laws.

It will be interesting to see if free illegal drugs will be made available next.

I don’t really have any interest in this thread as seen by my lack of posts here. The only reason I posted here is…

““Tiahrt is the standout best for the 4th district!”

That simply is not true.

Now Hank has bragged that he has the eager ear of Toad Tiahrt. And I will not go into how business interests took the white collar manager Tiahrt and will keep him as long as they can working for them and then maintain him in a lifestyle VERY distant and probably geographically distant from the people of Kansas.

I will say that Hanks own posts here confirm my take. He has money. I do not. Toad responds to him. Toad tells me to move if I want representation.

Hank made his post and I made mine “adhoc”

Hank feels well represented by Toad Tiahrt, he has said he has the congressman’s ear.

I do not feel so well represented. I have the back of the congressman’s hand.

What is your part in it?

Actually, saving the taxpayers $650,000.00 on a wastefull, stupid program, like needle exchanges, DOES represent all taxpayers.

“Rage..I know I sound heartless, but I really don’t care that junkies die, because while they are alive, they suck valuble resources away from those who are truly disabled through no fault of their own. Some people just can’t be saved no matter how much others want to help them.
I’m sick of seeing such abuse in our system.”

With my current back problems, I probably should be wasting my precious PC time on this crap. Oh well.

Never mind morality, Mary. Since you’re arguing for social darwinism, let me think it.

Hmmm. . . okay.

Surely we should clear-cut those trees in California that keep starting horrific wildfires. They suck valuble resources away from those tress that occasionally catch fire through no fault of their own. Some trees just can’t be saved no matter how much others want to help them.

Some might say that cutting down massive numbers of trees would haVe a dramatic and dangerous effect on the health of ecosystem. Heh. That’s as dumb as thinking the rampant spread of AIDS among junkies could affect the health of anyone else.

“Never mind morality, Mary. Since you’re arguing for social darwinism,”

I don’t necessarily think Mary is arguing for social Darwinism as much as Mary may full well understand there are limited resources and unlimited perceived wants and needs. Allocation of those resources to where they accomplish the most, helping the most, is simply good stewardship of those resources.
Just because there are wants and needs does not mandate funding them.
Mary does not appear to need my defense, those are simply my thoughts.

That is what Republicans do Steven.

They decry government, then they get into government and do their very best to prove that government does not work.

Well that and they service business people and facilitate their exploitation of people.

Actually, AH, Mary is arguing for social darwinism–the essence of her appeal is that these people are not fit to save, and thus should be allowed to die. That’s pure social darwinism.

One might presume that, minus ideology, something like say, highway funds might be a more appropriate (and, indeed, far more cost-saving) antagonist when it comes to “limited resources.” But a well-paved highway doesn’t really piss people off.

Regarding Mary, my objection to her snap judgments goes back a ways (and I see she still doesn’t really understand it). One might consider the vacuity of presuming such people “choose” to live that way, particularly from someone who has some knowledge of behavior disorders. And one would also think a former cancer patient would have some understanding of both the draw and the unpleasant dreariress of opiate addication. As Steven Tyler once aptly put it, “Telling an addict to just say no is like telling a manic-depressive to just cheer up.”

Oh well.

But considering the relative cost of ignoring a potent AIDS vector, it’s a bit hard to argue that ignoring the problem is an intelligent allocation of resources.

Indeed, leaving aside criminal law, human morality, and the hidden costs of “whacking” people, swallow’s “kill ‘em all” plan would seem to be quite a bit more cost effective–at least at first blush (one wonders, e.g, what would be done with the bodies).

I suppose a lot of how one feels about this does hinge on whether one feels the ‘addict’ has a choice in the matter. If you consider chemical dependence a disease, like say cancer, that someone develops totally against their will, and outside their control to large extent, then ‘help’ is certainly justified. If one considers it to be a condition of choice then I feel somewhat less charitable.
If we consider it outside our control of choice, that removes any responsibility from the effected though, and I know that is a falsehood.
People choose to stop drinking for example and do so, they choose to quit smoking and do so, they choose to stop drugging and do so.
At best it is a combination of factors and allocation of limited resources is appropriate.

The residents of DC already hate Tiaheartless because of his idiotic bill to rename the national airfield “Ronald Reagan Airport.”

This cost the city precious funds into the millions to change signs–a perfect example of the “unfunded mandate” RepubliCONs rail against until they do it themselves . . .

The conservative position seems to be let them and their spawn die of HIV, if they choose to inject.

Listen to Parkay: Sin deserves punishment.

If God won’t punish the sinner, we will.

No wonder he’s so gung-ho against safe and legal abortion.

If only he could figure out a way to kill the mother for having sex while at the same time pretending to care about the unborn “child” . . .

What a conundrum.

BTW, the only thing I really feel when someone like that dies is anger at how they CHOSE to waste their life. Drug addiction and alcoholism is a disease, but it’s a disease that a person has control over. It doesn’t have to kill them if they choose not to die from it.
No, I think NEPs are a waste of time and money, because they do nothing to keep that person from self destructing. Most addicts don’t die from AIDS, but from the effects of their drug/alcohol abuse. The sooner they are gone, the better for society.