One of the biggest problems facing the U.S. health care system is that it provides too much care — at great cost but with little or no health benefit. The book “Overtreated,†chosen by David Leonhardt of the New York Times as the economic book of the year, reports that “we spend between one-fifth and one-third of our health care dollars on care that does nothing to improve our health.†Worse, this overtreatment sometimes harms health, because some of the procedures have risks.
There are several causes for this overtreatment, from doctors and hospitals that are paid based on the volume of their work to concerns about malpractice to patients who demand treatments. Reforms prescribed by author Shannon Brownlee (no relation) include giving doctors incentives to explain more clearly the risks and benefits of procedures, changing malpractice laws and changing the fee-for-service payment model.
Posted by Phillip Brownlee
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257 Comments
Gee I wish I had that problem. I have seen so much ‘conservative’ care MISS important things, I just don’t believe this article. Yeah it pays to be a little careful. I wish more docs would LISTEN to their patients enough to overtest.
If all Insurance Companies are paid in reflextion too the Medicare/Medicaid Assignment and usage rates, why do we charge private citizens so much for healthcare?? If Medicare/Medicaid only pays or allows 80% billing and they are extremely picky about what they will and wont allow, why do others have to pay so much?? Protocal is Protocal. An ER bill is a Er bill. Companies only have to pay what Medicare and Medicaid pay in reflextion to equality. 80cents of each dollar billed. The average rate for Medicare/Medicaid rates are about $70.oo a month in Premiums. This abuse of healthcare has to stop. This elective abuse of experimental drugs and healthcare has to stop. Old School Medicine works. Look at all these new meds and procedures going into Law Suits here lately. We need to demand that the Med Companies dont take over the Healthcare we recieve or the lack of proper care we recieve. Traditional old school approaches to healthcare works. Demand that we get proper healthcare. As a reminder, the State House, Senate and the U.S. House and Senate get free healthcare for life at our tax expence. They could care less about cost. They dont pay a premium, nor a co-pay. They pay “”ZERO”"!!! If we are footing the bill, we have the right to dispute its use and billing rates. Demand equality, and demand accountability!!!! Herbert West III, Disability Retired Paramedic, Publisher/Journalist, west.herb@yahoo.com
The cost of health care is driven by those who have not intention of paying anything. Providers are forced to charge those with insurance and abiliy to pay enough to offset the writeoffs.
I (knock wood) don’t have many medical issues to worry about (so far), but I’ve heard my primary care physician consult with his business office before deciding what prescription to write and what course of care he’s gonna take for me.
He couches it as saving me money, given my relatively lame health insurance coverage, but it’s obvious that if I had the insurance to pay for more. For example, I fell on the ice a few weeks ago and slightly broke my wrist. If my insurance would have covered it, he would have applied the brace in his office and charged the insurance something like $150. Once they checked my insurance, a nurse instructed me to go to a drug store and get the same brace for $30.
Part of the pricing structure of American health care is based on carefully-accounted per-day cost for a hospital room. That cost includes a box of Kleenex at bedside. Even if you don’t use a single tissue, the hospital charges the full cost of a new box of Kleenex every day you’re in the hospital. If you spend 26 hours in a hospital room, the hospital charges your insurance company for three days! One hour on Day 1, 24 hours on Day 2, and 1 hour on Day 3.
And even if you never sneeze, you’re charged $6 a day for three boxes of Kleenex. And a dollar-a-pill for aspirin, etc. and etc.
The insurance companies negotiate lower prices *they* have to pay for your $6-a-day Kleenex, but the uninsured patient is charged full price.
Several years ago I experienced an excrutiating migrane-like headache. I had better insurance then. The doc gave me prescriptions (then covered) to treat the problem then turned to his pitch. There was a 99% chance I wasn’t suffering from a brain tumor, but it would take an MRI scan to catch it; and my insurance would cover the $1,500 charge for an MRI. Oh, by the way, he was required by law to tell me he had a personal financial interest in the MRI business… but my insurance would cover the whole cost.
What the hell? If there were a 1% chance they could catch a brain tumor and the insurance was paying for it, why not go for it?
So I got the MRI, I didn’t have a tumor, the drugs worked, I haven’t had another migrain, and the doc got $1,500 and I don’t have that level of health insurance anymore. Today, I’d probably take the 99% chance it’s not a brain tumor and go home.
After I had my MRI — General Electric was running ads on “Meet the Press” at the time about how wonderful this technology was — I did some research about that remarkable diagnostic tool.
I learned that Canada, with its Universal Care coverage for all citizens, had 14 MRI machines in the entire nation. At the same time, Wichita had 9 MRI machines (mostly owned by doctors’ investor groups). Now, there’s an argument to be made that Canada probably needed more than 14 MRI machines, but there is no justification — other than America’s screwed-up healthcare delivery system — that justifies 9 such machines in Wichita alone.
One of my relatives just found a mass in her breast, her husband lost his job of 15 yrs 4 months ago along with their healthcare benefits when the major company he worked for downsized…so now what? If it’s malignant, we’re talking at least $70,000 for cancer treatment. They have average assets and own their home, so they certainly won’t qualify for any kind of aid. He got frustrated looking for another job (at age 55 it’s not as easy to find employment that will pay what he was making before he lost his job) so he’s trying to start his own business. If she has cancer, they won’t be able to get any private insurance company to pick her up, meanwhile Cobra is expensive and only last for a short time.
So now what? Any of you who oppose Nationalized Health Care have any workable solutions? What would you do in this situation?
“Mary Caruso” –
Your relatives are experiencing an all-too-common situation. And it’s a national disgrace.
If you haven’t seen Michael Moore’s “Sicko,” do so. It’s his most moderate film — less snarking — to date and it shows how single-payer non-profit healthcare works in civilized nations around the world.
He talks to people who’ve had healthcare crises and asks them how much it cost them. They look at him as if they’d gone to a public restroom and you asked them how much it cost to flush the toilet.
A market-based healtcare system is simply absurd. Do you think “econ101″ would stop to shop around for a cheap surgeon if his kid had a hot appendix? If “Kansas” were in a car wreck, would he get on the phone and direct the EMTs to take him to a less expensive trauma center?
(Well, “Kansas” was strage emough, he might. But for rational people, my point stands.)
Your relatives spent 20 or 30 years contributing to a risk pool that covered medical care for all who were in that risk pool. Now,
due to corporate greed, they’ve been tossed out of the pool and are threatened with drowning in debt. That’s simply not what America’s supposed to be like.
All I can do is extend my best wishes and hopes for your relatives… and work for non-profit healthcare in America.
Good luck to them.
Thank you..I’m praying like heck that she doesn’t have a malignancy..being a cancer suvivor myself, I know the tremendous cost financially, emotionally, and physically. I was one of the lucky ones, we still had our benefits when I was diagnosed..now my husband may lose his job due to the sale of the TV station where he has worked for 20 yrs. Since I’m a cancer survivor, I won’t be able to afford private insurance unless it has a wavier saying it won’t pay for further cancer treatment, and the health insurance offered where I work is not very good.
There are many out there like us. Everything we’ve worked hard for all our lives can be wiped out in no time if I should get sick again.
Well, Kansas, econ101, Max, etc..if my niece has cancer, what would you suggest? What would YOU do if you were in her and her husband’s shoes?
Trail lawyers are a big part of our expense. Medical lawsuits made John Edwards rich. There must be a dollar limit on how much is paidout for malpractice.Go figure.
I see the blog is dominated again today by the “Gimme Gimme free stuff from Government” crowd.
You want costly unnecessary medical procedures eliminated, yet you complain when medical treatment is denied even when there is 0% chance for the patient to survive.
Not even Senator Clinton’s marvelous (not) free (not) healthcare plan does NOT include limiting attorney fees or malpractice claims at all. (My God, Clinton can’t stop giving money to attorneys!)
So those unnecessary medical procedures will still have to be done under HillaryCare! to keep the lawyers off the backs of the doctors and hospitals.
Unless of course HillaryCare! doesn’t cover every procedure that you might possibly want. (Gasp!)
Has anyone seen any details on what HillaryCare! will cover? Or what the premium cost will be? (It will NOT be free.)
Well Mary, your relative lost his job and insurance 15 years ago?
When he was age 40?
Good age to retire I guess. Unless you want to take personal responsibility for yourself.
Mary, I’d suggest everyone work for a living. Whether they want to or like it, or not.
Even McDonalds has health coverage for their employees. (And today the Federal minimum wage is now $5.85!)
Get a job that has an insurance plan and stop living off the sweat and labor of everyone else.
They own their own home and have assets, but do not want to pay for their own health insurance.
Sounds to me like they have made a choice to keep certain big assets and hoping someone else takes care of their health insurance.
Sorry Mary, I’m tired of working my a** off to pay for those who don’t feel like working.
“Those looking for a helping hand need only look at the end of their own arm.” Mildred Armstrong Kalish in “Little Heathens”.
One of my relatives just found a mass in her breast, her husband lost his job of 15 yrs 4 months ago along with their healthcare benefits when the major company he worked for downsized…so now what? If it’s malignant, we’re talking at least $70,000 for cancer treatment.
Hey Max?
You’ll need to be apologizing to Mary. If you a more careful reader instead of a too eager ranter you will see what I mean.
Let’s see if you are smart enough to figure it out. I am embarrassed for you if ya can’t.
Max get the years first nomination for “Whoops I showed my ass!”
Ok I misread Mary’s post. So what?
Whether it’s 15 years ago or 1 day ago, my answer is the same.
The guy has Cobra benefits but doesn’t want to pay the premium.
And he can still get a job somewhere else. Even if it’s McDonalds or they may have to move to where there is work. And why was the wife not working? Isn’t she a feminist?
Heck, I don’t want to pay my bills either. If I choose not to pay my bills, I’ll be darned if I’ll go asking someone else to pay my bills.
“Those looking for a helping hand need only look at the end of their own arm.” Mildred Armstrong Kalish in “Little Heathens”.
Apparently, the new republican motto is: “I got mine; go die.”
Hey Max?
In the country you and I call home, a Dr. can devote himself entirely to lucrative but otherwise useless things like faecelifts and liposuction.
Meanwhile millions of people can’t even SEE a Dr. AT ALL.
Tell me there aint something wrong with that picture.
“They have average assets and own their home, so they certainly won’t qualify for any kind of aid. He got frustrated looking for another job (at age 55 it’s not as easy to find employment that will pay what he was making before he lost his job) so he’s trying to start his own business.”
——————————————————————–
Mary’s relatives have assets so they don’t qualify for welfare. So, spend your assets on your healthcare. Duh.
He got frustrated looking for a job.
So? Life is guaranteed to be easy?
Can’t find a job that paid the same? How about a job that pays 70% or 80% or 90% of his old job?
Oh, it would be beneath his dignity to take such a big pay cut. It’s not beneath his dignity to want someone else to pay for his free healthcare though.
You Socialist Libs are pathetic.
It has ever been thus stumper.
Apparently, the new republican motto is: “I got mine; go die.”
Posted by: stumper | January 01, 2008 at 12:21 PM
Stumper, Mary’s relatives own a home and have their own assets.
These are not poor starving people who have no means of support.
They CHOOSE not to spend their own money.
The Socialist Libs are saying:
“I got mine, now give me more of yours!”
Hey Max?
If a country owes its people nothing? Are the people free to feel the same as to the country?
george – care to prove your claim? From what I have read malpractice is only a minor part of the cost. And, before you condemn those who make quacks accountable, how about the question of policing the quacks who malpractice and leave a trail of victims?
I think one big part of the overall cost is what we spend in the last days of life. Are we simply prolonging dying in some of these instances rather than really prolonging life?
Mary
COBRA is expensive, but a lot less than the $70K that you estimated, out of pocket.
http://www.dol.gov/ebsa/regs/fedreg/final/2004011796.pdf
By the way, the actual “cost” of COBRA is the employee plus the employer premium. In other words, the self employed “small business” person is ALREADY paying COBRA rates!
Also, after 18 to 36 months, depending on the situation, we have a guaranteed issue insurance pool in Kansas. It, too, is very expensive, but far cheaper than paying out of pocket. It is called the KHIA:
http://www.khiastatepool.com/
I don’t have a link Ben. But you just nailed it.
That and we devote considerably more energy to caring for the sick than keeping people well.
I meant 18 to 36 months of COBRA, depending on the situation.
You can qualify for KHIA as soon as you are “uninsurable” or have no other option for insurance.
Oversimplified question JR.
I never said there is no role for government.
Your role for government is to provide 100% of what the people want.
No country can survive with that approach.
Please do not speak for me until you speak better Max.
I would like to see the government compete with the private sector in any number of endeavors Max. Health care would be an excellent start.
Isn’t American money going to provide health care for the citizens of Iraq since bushco’s war of choice broke their country?
It is inexcusable that any American who is less than extremely wealthy is also one major illness away from losing all they worked their entire lives for. Is it possible to prepare for every eventuality? Even the most responsible face unknowns and unexpected events. We prepare to the best of our abilities and hope it’s enough.
Mary’s relatives sound like hard-working responsible contributing to society types. I welcome the day when all Americans will have affordable health care. I sincerely hope that day is coming soon! That’s how I prefer my tax monies be spent.
Actually, the “wellness” issues rest clearly on the backs of the patients.
We eat too much. We eat the wrong things. We don’t get enough sleep. We don’t get enough exercise. We smoke. We drink. We engage in risky behavior.
Also, the public does not see the health provider as a source of information. We see the provider as a “gatekeeper” to the “RX FIX”.
I had a doctor tell me, “I will write you a script, if you take these 3 times a day for 5 days you will be cured. However, if you gargle with hot salt water, frequently, get more sleep, drink a little more orange juice, and toss the script in the trash, you might get well also get well in 5 days.”
He felt frustrated. Americans want a drug for everything. We want responsibility for nothing.
Posts by Max (does he even read what he writes?)
I see the blog is dominated again today by the “Gimme Gimme free stuff from Government” crowd.
I’d suggest everyone work for a living…Even McDonalds has health coverage for their employees. (And today the Federal minimum wage is now $5.85!)
Get a job that has an insurance plan and stop living off the sweat and labor of everyone else.
They own their own home and have assets, but do not want to pay for their own health insurance.
Now let’s see if we can put this in perspectve:
We’re supposed to kvetch about people complaining about deficiency in a system without truly offering any solution; people are supposed to work for less than $6 an hour so real people can have real jobs just to have substandard insurance that drains 30% of your income to cover nothing, not even your death; I’ve noticed those living off the sweat and labor of other people are the ones WITH the good insurance plans, and those are in addition to the bloated pay, perks, and bonuses; we’re supposed to live in appliance boxes and walk 15 miles to work in all weather to pay for the insurance that won’t even cover me when I die in 2 years from exposure?
New Year wishes for our liberal friends. (Continued from above)
To Cosmos: Another cause to champion and a warm place in the coming global cooling phase.
To Apophis: The ability to read an MPS post while maintaining normal blood pressure.
It’s biz free market types like you and Max did that to America there paulie.
I have a Dr. story of my own. Recovering from ulcers, I asked the doc, “Hey I don’t wanna eat cottage cheese and jello for the rest of my life. But tell me what I should and should not eat so I can not have problems.”
The doc writes me a prescription. “Take these and eat what you want.”
“If I had my way they would put this in the water.”
That worked…until I would miss a pill. Then I would be terrible sick for days at a time. SO they threw more pills at me. Finally, I told them enough with the damn pills. If I eat something disagrees with me I just won’t eat it again.
The “free market” has turned doctors into peddlers of pills.
Oh and watch TV for an hour. “Ask you Dr about….”
How many times an hour do we hear that?
If I was more conspiracy minded, I night even speculate that there is a vested interest in KEEPING people sick as opposed to helping them be healthy.
Moving above to the Open thread, where it is supposed to be.
We eat too much. We eat the wrong things. We don’t get enough sleep. We don’t get enough exercise. We smoke. We drink. We engage in risky behavior.
econ, that describes me to a T. And I’m healthier and look 10 to 15 years younger than anyone in my graduting class, including the health/fitness freaks.
Ever notice how fitness freaks prematurely age?
Herb
Members of the Kansas legislature do NOT get “free health coverage for life”.
Not unless they leave at age 65. That would, then, be Federal Medicare coverage.
Also, you are really mixing apples and oranges when you complain about the benefits that any government employee EARNS, and then, somehow, claim that the taxpayers should pay for those who refuse to buy their own insurance.
Oh and watch TV for an hour. “Ask you Dr about….”
When drug companies began pulling out the stops and started hitting the media advertising big around 15 years or so ago, I noticed an ad for an alergy relief with “possible side effects of watery eyes, headache, runny nose, and shortness of breath”. I couldn’t help thinking, “but, that’s exactly what I’m trying to get rid of by taking this pill!”
The latest Demunderarock.com mantra is to blame the big nasty corporations and the rich people for all the problems in America today.
Can you Libs not come up with a political agenda without bashing someone?
Can you Libs never take personal responsibility for anything?
Nope.
You will always have an “enemy” to blame for your failed Social programs of the past.
And your “fix”, is to create more Social programs.
I heard Obama in an Ad say that, “I am gonna do something to stand up to the big corporations and special interest groups.”
What exactly he was gonna do wasn’t in his message. He did need to establish there was an evil enemy out there to blame though.
And Obama wants to bring America together by pitting one group against the other?
Wow! I was impressed. (cough cough)
If the number of people receiving health care increased, the dr.s could make the same amount of money by treating more people, and eliminate the unnecessary procedures.
Canada outlawed RX advertising.
I am a free market and free speech kind of guy, but — wow, what I can say in the insurance adverstising area is regulated, and it is almost impossible, these days, to legally advertise many types of investments. (The disclaimers are longer than the advertising and it just isn’t worth it.)
Also, in the investment area, I am not allowed to take much of anything, other than a notebook or “planner” or ink pens, from an investment “Wholesaler” or sales rep. Conflict of interest issues seem important, when I am advising mutual funds, but NOT when my doc prescribes a drug?
We do have hypochondriacs out there. The drug ads feed their fears.
Yes, I am very much a free market guy. But — it bugs me.
Phantom, how often do you do more work for the same amount of money?
Libs
Health insurance will change, but NOT in the ways you expect.
Let me use an analogy:
I like the Kansas “Right to Work” law. That law, basically, states that you can not be forced to join a labor union in order to work at a “union shop”.
The die-hard big-labor types tell us that this is “free-loading” and that the non union member benefits from the dues paying union member.
(I see the other side of the argument: The Union must be forced to compete for members. The Union will become lazy and corrupt, if it no longer has to please the membership.)
However, put that issue aside, if you can, for a moment. This is my point:
The “freeloaders” today, in our health care system, contribute NOTHING by their freeloading. They simply do not wish to pay anything in the way of premiums for health insurance.
Most likely, THAT will end. Any form of additional coverage will come with a price.
There is no such thing as a free lunch.
Your ability to “opt out” of paying YOUR fair share is about to expire.
Blank is the new “Kansas”? (cough, cough)
Max, do you fly much? If you do, I am wondering about your opinion of that free-market solution. Free-markets do not, in my opinion, solve all problems: air travel being one of the more noticable ones.
Steven
Air travel, actually, is much better now, than it was before deregulation.
Ticket prices, especially, are much better.
If you wait 3 hours on a runway for reasons that are preventable by an airline in Europe, you get your money back from the airline plus the company pays a fine. Surprisingly (not!) airline service is much better in Europe than in the States. Regulation is not always bad.
Ticket prices are better, but the service sucks really badly. To the point that I won’t use it unless I have no choice. Anybody who says that service is better, is delusional, in my humble opinion.
econ101 & max…ya’ll amaze me. I can’t believe econ101 recommends Cobra (a federally mandated handout) and KHIA ( a State mandated handout). And I can’t believe max didn’t call you out for such ‘lib’ ideals!!
A few years back I lost my job. Yes I started Cobra, but that is only effective as long as the employer continues carrying health coverage. If the employer bellies up and no coverage exists (my case) Cobra vanishes. As for KHIA, I was forced to go that route. Understand I was not facing the same expense as Mary’s family, but I have a heart history that necessitated having coverage. My cost for a single person with no dental or prescriptions was $323 per month. The deductible was $7500! Then it begins the copay. Now how does one who is unemployed pay for this? With my heart history I had to have continuous coverage or else my new health coverage (at McDonalds) would consider my condition as pre-existing.
Bottom line is if I had become ill I would have lost the house and all else. Then I would have lived in a box down by the river. Of course the ‘libs’ would want me out to live in a shelter (gov’t handout) and the ‘cons’ would want me out because I’d be an eyesore. I would have ended up in jail (gov’t handout) with a legal-aid lawyer (gov’t handout) defending me for polluting the waterway by peeing in it.
Air travel, actually, is much better now, than it was before deregulation.
Ticket prices, especially, are much better.
Posted by: econ101 | January 01, 2008 at 01:34 PM
LOL
I think what you meant is, “deregulation has improved air travel no matter what the facts are.”
The neocons here won’t be happy until there are no more uninsured children in this country because all the uninsured children are dead. There is no mercy in their hearts; there is no love for those unable to take care of themselves. There is only an empty space where a heart should be.
Nothing we say will change that: they are full of hate. They holler for no abortions, but don’t want insurance for the child when born. They yell, “we are a peaceful nation” while at the same time sending our soldiers to Iraq to die for bush and his cronies. You guys are red alright; red with the blood of the innocent.
raykelly
COBRA is not a “hand out” — you end up paying the combined cost of the employer and emloyee portion of the premium.
KHIA is paid for, primarily, by a “premium tax” on health insurance companies that operate in Kansas.
My point, in listing them, is to show that we already HAVE solutions for some of the problems that people, on this Blog, are complaining about.
stumper
There are more than adequate services for the poor, in this country.
There are even more services for children.
You liberals have overplayed your hand on the “health care” issue.
You are trying to shame the country into following you.
The problem with your strategy?
We have absolutely NOTHING to be ashamed of!
Of all the 30 OECD countries, that is those who claim to embrace representative democracy and the free market, only 3 don’t have universal insurance. The US, Mexico and Turkey…….whatever that is worth.
I have a tip for some –
Try researching “health care plans”, not “health care insurances” on Google, there is a difference in terms usage.
Shamefully at 51 yrs old and not taking good enough care of my teeth in the last ten years, I have reach that age of where all the neglect is fast catching up.
Now I am looking at $6,000. of dental work that needs to be done.
I do have Delta insurance but it does not cover enough of the more extensive work that needs to be done.
So in my search in reducing my out of pocket cost, I found http://www.dentalplans.com/ and at $129.95 per a year, I can get a discounted price for dental procedures done, that includes discounted vision care and prescription medicine cost.
I must tell you that the DENTALPLANS.COM website is administered by DENTALPLANS.COM, INC., a licensed Florida Discount Medical Plan Organization.
Plans and Programs offered by DentalPlans.com are not health insurance policies.
Plans and Programs offered by DentalPlans.com provide discounts at certain health care providers for medical services.
Plans and Programs offered by DentalPlans.com do not make payments directly to the providers of medical services.
The Plan or Program member is obligated to pay for all health care services but will receive a discount from those health care providers who have contracted with the Plan, Program or discount plan organization.
A note to add is that it helps to have some kind of coverage in addition to your insurance to reduce out of pocket expense, it is not bad planning to have more then enough.
I really agree. This is especially true of perscription drugs. The doctor-druggist peograms need to be done away with. Doctors should not be allowed to be paid kickbacks by drug companies and drug companies should be banned from advertising prescription drugs of any kind.
econ101
Cobra and KHIA, while not gov’t handouts in the sense of getting a check in the mail, they are the direct product of gov’t legislation; a topic of disdain among many of the ‘con’ bloggers on this site.
With respect to KHIA the pool you refer to is similar to assigned risk auto ins except instead of delegating a particular company a new company is created. The premium is huge and paid by the individual. In my case it was $323 pmo with a $7500 deductible. That translates to nearly $3900 pyr with virtually no benefits; that is about 18.67% of the before tax income @ $10 phr
“”"I see the blog is dominated again today by the “Gimme Gimme free stuff from Government” crowd.
You want costly unnecessary medical procedures eliminated, yet you complain when medical treatment is denied even when there is 0% chance for the patient to survive.
Not even Senator Clinton’s marvelous (not) free (not) healthcare plan does NOT include limiting attorney fees or malpractice claims at all. (My God, Clinton can’t stop giving money to attorneys!) “”"
The tort system will have to be reformed to handle any switch to national health services. How do they handle it in Canada and the UK?
“”"One of my relatives just found a mass in her breast, her husband lost his job of 15 yrs 4 months ago along with their healthcare benefits when the major company he worked for downsized…so now what? If it’s malignant, we’re talking at least $70,000 for cancer treatment. They have average assets and own their home, so they certainly won’t qualify for any kind of aid. He got frustrated looking for another job (at age 55 it’s not as easy to find employment that will pay what he was making before he lost his job) so he’s trying to start his own business. If she has cancer, they won’t be able to get any private insurance company to pick her up, meanwhile Cobra is expensive and only last for a short time.”"”
They are up a creek without a paddle in the USA. Too bad they are Canadian, Austrailian, French or English. No problem there.
Sometimes when I read posts such as those from “econ101″ or “Hank” or “Max,” I wonder if WE Blog has succeeded in connectin us with life forms from another planet. (Not necessarily *intelligent* life, mind you.)
There was a time when you could book regularly-scheduled flights from Wichita to Topeka, Joplin, Parsons even. That was an era of regulated airlines. Regulated rates between high-profit routes such as New York to Los Angeles subsidized admittedly less-profitiable routes, but companies such as Braniff, TWA, Pan American, Eastern Airlines (I could continue the list for a while here)… survived and thrived.
Ah, but under the cons’ religion of deregulation, I recently booked a round-trip between Kansas City and Los Angeles. The trip to LA cost $72! Yea, dereulation! I’d've paid that to fly from Parsons to Topeka in 1972! But the lowest-price flight from LA to Kansas City was $390. Huh?
I can’t begin to understand the accounting principles involved, but the total round-trip price was about the same as it used to be under regulation… only service to Topeka, Joplin, Dodge City, Scottsbluff is no longer available.
Deregulating energy resulted in Enron. Dereugulating banking resulted in the savings-and-loan crash. Dereregulating the mortgage industry resulted in the housing collapse. Anybody see a pattern here?
Had “econ101″ stuck with his course of study and, ya know, actually taken Econ 102, he might have learned that the basics of Econ 101 do not apply anymore.
“econ101″ proclaims that “lower taxes *always* result in higher revenue for the government,” but steadfastly refuses to answer my question, “Why wouldn’t a 0% marginal tax rate then result in government swimming in money?”
The reason is, of course, “econ101″ never took Econ 102.
Capitalism works within limits. And only within limits.
And there are some things more important than the corporate bottom line.
We tried laizzes-faire economics in the United States a hundred and fifty years ago. It resulted in fifty years of boom and bust and trusts and monopolies and child labor and over-the-counter heroin and it took Teddy Roosevelt — a *REPUBLICAN, mind you!!!* — to realize unmitigated greed was no financial system on which to build a healthy society.
There are probably some capitalists who’d be all too willing to fly airliners without the *socialist* air traffic control system in place… as long as it were profitable right up to the point of thousands of people dying in mid-air collisions. Air traffic control (with deregulation of airlines) is the classic example of *socializing* the risks and privatizing the profits.
The more your economic philosphy enourages and creates more have-nots than haves, the sooner your economic philosophy will be overwhelmed by the have-not majority. It’s simple math; something you should have learned even in Econ 101.
Teddy Roosevelt — a *REPUBLICAN, mind you!!!*
How times have changed. A hundred years ago republicans charged on San Juan Hill; today they charge on American Express!!
Max has my vote as well!
We seem to be living in a time of excess. Excess profits especially in the medical profession.
I have always been a Republican, but now consider myself independent, leaning toward hope. Everyone deserves health care, and companies no longer provide that for their team members at an affordable price and adequate coverage. Looks like some type of mandated coverage may have to come to pass for this stupid cycle to end.
Monkey
You are FAR to the left of Clinton, Obama or even Edwards.
You are socialist, to the core.
I like having you around, like an animal at the zoo, just so I can point out what the extreme, on the Left, looks like.
Anything that the government does will, most likely, create even more problems.
I am only trying to warn people to be realistic.
We HAVE programs for the poor.
Anyone else, that we cover, will have to PAY for that coverage, or a least a portion of it.
Also, it is politically impossible to strip the health insurance plans from the vast majority, that have plans, currently.
It is also impossible, politically, to come up with a new plan, unless those benefits, in that plan, are no better than Medicare.
Any government program, for the uninsured, will have to focus on the fact that many, or most, who have no coverage now, have no coverage by CHOICE.
Any new plan will cost a premium, a premium many uninsured won’t want to play.
By the way, another policial problem:
If you go on Medicaid, there is an “Estate Recovery” program, to go after your assets, at death.
Tell me, please, why the “poor” on Medicaid will are not allowed to pass their home or auto to their kids, but the “working poor” on your NEW plan, will not have to pay back the taxpayers, at death?
Medicaid Estate Recovery:
http://www.srskansas.org/ISD/ees/estate_recovery.htm
my attack on drug companies got deleted, I wonder who bought eagle ads this week? I think what people fail to realize is that insurance is what makes health care expensive, 10 grand to have a baby, 100,000 for a bypass or cancer 5,000 for a broken arm. you look at medical produrces not covered by insurance, cosmetic, Lasik eye, or even abortions you will find that they are reasonably affordable and that insurance lead to higher prices and more waste, from what I’ve seen Hillarys plan is the same as Mitt Rommneys force people to buy health insurance.
Kev:I don’t Canadians sue as readily as Americans so tort reform isn’t a big topic hereabouts, but from the “lawyer” adds I see on Buffalo TV must be a major cause of worry and costs to US healthcare practioners and employers. By the way we only have insurance for health care costs, not a health plan, with the services delivered by private enterprise. The insurance plan has intangibles though that can’t be measured by statistics ie, a full year of maternity leave, with pay.
NN
Your standard of living is roughly 20% to 30% LESS than the American average, last time that I checked.
Canadian socialism is a big reason why Canada is a poorer country.
Canada does outlaw RX advertising, at least on TV.
Canada also severely restricts lawsuits and will not allow “class action” suits against drug companies.
Remember this when you purchase drugs from Canada.
Well I see the libs want free healthcare but are bitching they will have to pay for it.
Just like you want renewable energy but don’t want to pay for that either.
Good lord, is it always SOMEbody else who is supposed to pay? Does the word democrat include zero responsibility in definition?
“Does the word democrat include zero responsibility in definition?”
No that would be George Bush
Your [Canadian] standard of living is roughly 20% to 30% LESS than the American average, last time that I checked.
Posted by: econ101 | January 01, 2008 at 03:52 PM
Are you making this up, or do you have something to back it up?
By the way, in overnight ForEx trading (last night) it costs US$.998 to buy CA$1.00. It’s not like it was waaaay back in the good old days, before Augustus Stupidus came to power and it only took US.080, or less, to buy CA$1.00.
Your “20-30% lower ’standard of living’” takes the newly appreciated CAD into account, right?
BTW, the bot spy tells me it’s caught and held a link I tried to post to back up the ForEx ratio.
Well, that didn’t work out as I’d hoped.
Used to be it cost US$0.80, or less, to buy CN$1.00.
And add your own www to forexdirectory.net/cad.html, you’ll see my source.
Good lord, is it always SOMEbody else who is supposed to pay? Does the word democrat include zero responsibility in definition?
Posted by: American Way | January 01, 2008 at 04:31 PM
Yes.
It’s now the Socialist Democrat Party. They would have the Government take 100% responsibility (and control) of all of us.
And the sheep will follow this plan, because they won’t have to graze for themselves anymore.
They couldn’t give a rip about freedom.
http://realtytimes.com/rtpages/20000808_caliving.htm
http://www.cbc.ca/canada/story/1998/12/03/oecd981203.html
http://www.csls.ca/reports/tdpaper.pdf
We can debate the percentages, and, yes, exchange rates have changed a bit.
However, I certainly did NOT make anything up.
Canada’s socialist system has hurt Canadian living standards and Canadian economic growth!
Pedant
Exchange rates, alone are meaningless.
How many Canadian dollars does the average Canadian have to spend, vs the American with American dollars?
Again folks:
You people who dont want to pay for your own insurance are about to have a very rude awakening!
We are going to CHARGE you, for your “health care insurance” even if you don’t want any.
There is NO chance, that you will get “free” health care.
None at all.
Politicians will NOT give you benefits that are any better than Medicare, which has high deductables and co-pays.
Politicians will not give you “free” care, when “poor” people have to PAY BACK the government, out of their estate, through Medicaid Estate Recovery!
Econ101: We’re 20-30% poorer than the US? I can’t figure where, or from whose convoluted stats your glean the impression. Lower costs or relative currency values do not mean lower standards it’s what you get for your buck that counts. Hell none of our governments run fiscal deficits. I personally think that France and Germany, with lower per capita GNP, have better standards and ways of life than either of us. I don’t need to challenge a false assumption and reading your posts makes me wonder how much you believe what you say vs, playing devils advocate. No doubt your points generally are well written, well presented and submitted with conviction, no matter how a far off the mark your conclusions. As to the matter of torts, as a direct descendant of British common law, one must not have contributed to their own demise/injury in any way if seeking damages, and lawyers must charge, with none of the compensation based on the judgements awarded. I understand in the US lawyers can interview a client, figure if he can win and take a cut of the award. UK/Canadian justice suggests the lawyer offer counsel and charge for his time. So if you win you pay his fee and if you loose you pay his fee as well. Kinda holds off frivilous actions that way I guess, and we do have legal aid etc., just like you.
However, I certainly did NOT make anything up.
Posted by: econ101 | January 01, 2008 at 05:33 PM
The most current date in the 2 of the 3 links you gave are already 6 years old. The other link was to a right wing Canadian “think tank” page that’s about as reliable as the AIE is here.
Yawn.
I believe the Canadian standard of living has closed the gap the US’s dramatically since 2004, partly due to ForEx and of course largely due to its national healthcare system, and you certainly didn’t show me anything to change my mind.
AEI, sorry. aka, the Bush think tank.
Don’t take it personally, NN. econ101 is one of those guys who never lets facts stand in the way of the conclusion he’s already reached.
Like “US air travel has been deregulated, therefore it’s improved” or “Canada has national health care, it’s standard of living is therefore lower than the US.”
econ101 likes to do whatever it takes to fit new facts to his conservative ideology.
NN
And, you do not have “class action” suits against drug companies.
Also, I linked several GDP and standard-of-living comparisons.
I think Canadian standards of living are, roughly, 20% behind the United States.
Pedant
I beat you on this one.
Canada’s standard of living was going DOWN under all three links I posted.
That they were all a few years old means that Canada is LOWER now, in comparison to the United States, not higher.
Also, libs, you all seemed pretty sure of yourselves, that there was NO standard of living difference, prior to my links, didn’t you?
I proved you wrong.
Econ101: Why would we have class actions against drug companies? We handle the drug thing like the Europeans do which eliminates a lot of nonsense requiring redress in the courts. With your handle you should know that if you take out the to 10% at the top and bottom of your income scales you will get a better idea of real average incomes. Do that with all G8 countries there is a surprise in store. In the US the rich are very, very rich as compared to the rest of the G8 which drags up the per capita stats, leaving an inflated picture overall. How do you compute say 12 months of maternity leave benfits/wages or $5 per day professional child care centres(including lunch!) in your conclusions?
NN
Your “12 months of maternity leave” is PART of your productivity problem.
Max, I never asked any of you to judge my family, I just simply asked you what YOU would do in the same situation. My relatives are good, very hard working people who have built a good future for themselves and never asked anyone for anything in their life, but now they could lose a sustantial portion of what they worked so hard for because health care is so expensive and they aren’t rich or poor. It’s those of us in the middle that stand to lose everything if we get sick.
Max, would you honestly go to work at McDonald’s so you could get benefits? What would you do if you couldn’t find a job that pays enough to live on plus benefits?
Have you ever tried to get a job when you’re fighting cancer? And would you be able to work if you were going through cancer treatment?
“There but for the grace of God go I”
The one thing I do know is that people who judge and condem others for their misfortune, usually get bit in the ass with the same attitude when their time comes.
Why should anyone have to sell their home and go through their life savings just so they can get medical care?
Why can’t we have system that guarantees equal access to affordable healthcare for everyone in this country? Why should only the poor, the old, or the vets get help with their healthcare? Why can’t it be equal for everyone?
Health care should be a right, not a privilege.
It will be Mary.
Why do you think paulthecon is being so shrill and trying to convince HIMSELF that he is right?
He knows the will in America is as yours. And it scares the hell out of him. It’s gonna bite him in the wallet.
And see Max? Max is in a snit too. He can’t be made to wait an extra 20 minutes to see a Dr. He has rants to write in how Hillary is gonna steal his guns.
There are the resources to do a government branch of health care easily. It can compete effectively with private care and insurance which will be forced by the new competition to lower prices.
See folks on the right? Not all of us, maybe not even most of us are about how much we have when we die.
BTW Max, I have never received a handout in my life from the government or anyone else…so you can quit sterotyping me that way.
All I can say, JR is what goes around comes around. Those who judge, condemn, and who would deny help to others will end up being the losers when it’s all said and done.
Kharma Mary?
Yeah I hope for some of that too.
I do believe in Kharma.
Please say a prayer for my niece..she gets the results of her biopsy next Monday.
Mary
You do have my prayers, honestly.
Also, I gave you the links so that you could study COBRA and the KHIA, upthread.
—-
Me, affraid?
Get real. Almost nothing will happen, to change Medicare, and most of my clients are Medicare clients.
I do worry that the quality of care will suffer, under any nationalized health care plan.
I simply do not believe it is politically possible to eliminate the plans people already have.
I also know that any “new” plan can not offer better benefits than Medicare, or the seniors will come unglued.
I also know that Medicaid has “Estate Recovery” rules. These rules will make future “free” entitlements, for those who are not “poor” extremely hard to explain.
Why must the poor give up their property, to qualify, while the middle class can keep their property?
It won’t happen folks, not in the pipe dream style that you imagine.
Those of you clamoring for FREE healthcare, need to realize this issue is complex. Even within one nations healthcare system, there are many different standards. Please carefully read between the lines in reviewing the United Kingdoms experience:
There are now four different NHS systems operating in the UK since devolution, according to health chiefs.
As the NHS enters its 60th year, NHS Confederation boss Gill Morgan has told the BBC the health service is now in a unique position in its history.
Ms Morgan said while the underlying principles of free health care still stand, patients in the UK’s four nations are getting different services.
Patient groups said the situation was breeding envy.
Ms Morgan, whose organisation represents NHS trusts and health boards, said there was no longer a universal system across the UK, as there had been when it was set up by the Atlee government in the summer of 1948.
She told the BBC News website: “We basically have four different systems albeit with the same set of values.
“This period [since devolution] has been unique in the history of the NHS as it was essentially the same across the UK before devolution.
“We have had a complete split in philosophy.
“The model in England is about contestability and choice driving service improvements. Outside organisation have been brought in and patients can shop around.
“That model has been rejected by the other three.”
In Scotland, where people have been given free personal care – unlike the means-tested systems elsewhere – Ms Morgan said there has been much more consensus.
She described the approach as the “collectivist model”.
“They have very little contestability.
“They have been slower to improve waiting than England, but much less tension between doctors and managers.
“In Northern Ireland there has been very big structural change and more integration between health and social care.”
Impact
And in Wales, which has received praise in England for introducing free prescriptions, she said the close working relationship between local government and the NHS had had an impact on public health.
She said it was too early to say which was more successful and in the coming years the differences would become even “greater”.
“All we can say is that patients are experiencing different systems, each one has its advantages and we will have to wait to see what happens.”
But Joyce Robins of Patient Concern said the differences were “breeding envy”.
“Patients are increasingly looking across national borders and wondering why they are not getting the care others are getting.
“I am not sure that is good for the NHS.”
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/7149423.stm
Would this work in the US? Differences between state versions?
England – NHS market created whereby hospitals and community services have to compete with the private sector for patients, resulting in big falls in waiting times
Scotland – Doctors have much more of a say in services, with limited involvement from the private sector. Meanwhile, patients enjoy free personal care, unlike the means-tested systems elsewhere
Wales – Close working relationship between the NHS and local government, which has meant more innovation on public health, but less emphasis on waiting times
Northern Ireland – Somewhat hamstrung by political situation, but re-organisation of trusts pushed through and good integration between social care and NHS
AW
The only thing that will keep national health care from happening is if the dems kick it down the road to keep using it as an issue. Like the right does with their issues.
Since the will for national health care crosses party lines, if the Dems do not bring America into the same standards as the rest of the Western world, the opportunistic Repbulicans will have to.
I had health care insurance by my family and on my own for 36 years. Like many, I had no knowledge of what the situation was for those with NO health care. THEY pay for those who do have insurance. Because of the greed of American business, that pool is increasing.
Be very careful what you wish for.
Remember: There are 251,000,000 Americans with healthcare. There are 49,000,000 without (but this number is inflated by at least 12 million illegals).
In other words, 12 percent of Americans have no healthcare plans. These Americans ARE covered by federal as well as various state plans.
The vast majority, 88 percent of Americans have some form of healthcare.
The vast majority have coverage. Do they have to pay? YES!
Will they have to pay under socialized healthcare? YES!
The overriding theme from Canadian, UK, and other EU nations with socialized medicine is: THE WAIT.
Americans like fast food, quick decisions, and even faster wars.
You willing to wait in line with that tooth ache?
Be very, very careful what you ask for.
Once adopted – there is not going back.
Actually
EVERYONE has “health care”.
Some people just do not want to pay for it.
Health insurance and health care are two entirely different things.
There are the resources to do a government branch of health care easily. It can compete effectively with private care and insurance which will be forced by the new competition to lower prices.
Posted by: J R
JR you are so full of shit I am surprised you don’t float away!
Well I see the libs want free healthcare but are bitching they will have to pay for it.
Posted by somebody too ignorant or lazy to actually read the posts and to see something besides a chance to bash “them damn libs!!!” (wasn’t even worth looking at the nick)
1st, not everyone ‘bitching’ is a ‘lib’ here–if you must pigeonhole me, you’d have to call me an anarchist (not the wrongly named bomb-throwers of the ’20s, but the truest sense of the word).
2nd, we don’t expect, or even WANT free health care–I’ve never taken a handout yet, working (yeah, truly working) for what I have. But when your companies insurance agent comes in and explains that they’re doubling your rates, halving your benefits, and increasing your deductable because the insurance company isn’t makind enough money, while wearing shoes costing as much as you make in a week, a suit at least a month’s, gold nugget ring the size of a hubcap, gold/diamond tie clip the size of a red-necks belt buckle, and a gold/diamond watch that undoubtedly cost more than any two cars I’ve owned combined, I tend to have trouble believing him. If you’re going to lie to people, act the part. Had he worn patched overalls and had cowflop on his scuffed shoes, I may have believed him.
Health care is priced out of range for anyone without insurance.
This is in part due to those who ARE covered.
And fewer and fewer are covered. Those that are are increasingly denied benefits or procedures.
We won’t get national health care because of the poverty of the poor. We will get it because of the “free” market where money = care or lack thereof.
Call it a correction. And long overdue.
You will be forced to pay premiums that you do not pay now, if you have no insurance.
The coverage will be primarily catastrophic.
You will still be required to pay, out of pocket, for a large portion of your medical expenses.
The plan will NOT be as good as private plans, because the government will not want to encourage “moral hazard” or the failure of people to provide for themselves.
The plan will NOT be better than Medicare, and will not be “free”, like Medicaid, because politicians like to get re-elected.
Hey American way?
I didn’t expand on my idea you just reposted.
And your retort didn’t earn it.
Some people just do not want to pay for it.
Posted by: econ101
Intelligent people know that nothing is free. SOMEone has to pay for it.
The great debate in the media is, “People don’t have healthcare (or insurance)”. This opens the door for the bleeding hearts to moan and cry foul.
But the real great debate will be over who is paying. But the quality of care changes, with new federal regulation, red tape, monitoring, and approval processes – is not going to go up with socialized medicine.
Do libs buy lot’s of swamp land?
call me an anarchist (not the wrongly named bomb-throwers of the ’20s, but the truest sense of the word).ghotiphaze | January 01, 2008 at 09:06 PM
What exactly is an “anarchist” in the truest sense of the word?
If it doesn’t include bombs, gasoline, or guns – how do you aim to do that?
Health care is priced out of range for anyone without insurance. This is in part due to those who ARE covered.
No, your first sentence is INCORRECT. The vast majority of Americans have insurance and are making payments. This is factual and truth. Your whining and crybaby shrilling is all a lie.
Further, part of the reason health insurance costs so much is BECAUSE of federal regulations.
The feds MANDATE how much doctors will be reimbursed for their fees (by state). This reimbursement is LESS than the cost of doing business in many cases for the individual doctors.
Now how do you suppose the Doc’s make ends meet? For one – they INCREASE their price tags on services rendered.
It’s sorta like that senior citizen discount you get at the pancake house. The business owner is charging the senior LESS for the same meal younger citizens pay. To make up costs, and keep the profit margin up – the price for a plate of pancakes goes UP for everyone getting the menu.
Senior citizen discounts do not come out of the kindness of the CEO’s hearts.
SOMEbody is paying.
Ditto your family doctor and the healthcare system.
Thank your government for the high prices.
Oh, yeah, I became so indignant about that rabble-rouser, I completley lost my thought. (Dang ADDled mind!)
The insurance isn’t a problem for me. The wife’s covers me as well as the rest of the family. It’s a reasonable percentage of her income, and while coverage isn’t great it’s enough if we ever actually need it, it’ll help. We seldom use it, and not nearly as much as we pay annually. But I don’t mind easing the costs of health care for the guy driving his Winnebego the two miles down his driveway to get the morning paper, because, by god, he can afford it.
Y’see, somewhere down the line I developed this nasty personality trait–empathy. It usually strikes down most people somewhere between Kindergarten and 2nd grade, but from most of the posts in this (and other threads), luckily many of you have overcome it. Was it covered by your insurance, or did you have to cough up outta pocket?
Good luck to your kinfolk, Mary.
Americanway: Dental is not covered in our universal insurance, one buys private coverage for this and other things like optical, paramedical services etc., and drugs. Some elective surgery may take time to get especially, but not NEEDED care or surgery. Also no 2 National insurances plans are alike and here each Province has it’s own plan. Econ101: Productivity means cheaper, not faster or better, easily achieved by low wages and benefits. I could care less about productivity when it comes to my daughters mothering full time at home with their babies in the critical 1st year of life with pay. Good night all, Bon Anee!
If you need bombs, gasoline (assume you mean molotovs), and guns, you’ve already lost.
didn’t expand on my idea you just reposted.
Posted by: J R
And you couldn’t if you wanted to! You are no expert nor professional on healthcare. You are just the poor joe who someone gave a hand-me-down computer to so you could continue to post and have meaning in your life. (Not trying to be mean, just the facts).
So don’t try to tell the bloggers herein YOU have evaluated healthcare and KNOW the yet to be disclosed (unknown) healthcare system change – will be effective.
Sorry, JR, I call em as I see em.
Your post didn’t pass the smell test – by a long shot.
NN
Forcing a company to keep a position open for an entire year, for someone that isn’t there — is pretty much an admission that such person was not worth very much, to begin with.
Given your LACK of productivity, in Canada, I would say that is EXACTLY what you are saying, about your work force.
Make a decision.
Live with your decisions.
Do not expect the rest of us to suffer from your decisions.
Well northern neighbor, this makes a whole lot of sense to me:
“National insurances plans are alike and here each Province has it’s own plan.”
I happen to have a British friend living in Kansas. They are going to MY dentist. Funny thing is WHY they are going to MY dentist. They are in a hurry to get all their dental work done BEFORE returning to England after their tour in Kansas is up. She told me direct to my face it was because of the care and wait in England. Is she lying? I doubt it, why else spend money and time in a dentist office?
But this being the USA and all, I’d sorta expect OUR government to provide all our citizens the same services. Otherwise, we would do something called “revolt”.
Or maybe join ghotiphaze in his disappearing ink postings as a member of the “non-violent” anarchist. (They use secret signals I cannot post or I would disappear too).
When “empathy” confronts “reality” — reality ALWAYS wins!
I don’t want a President, or a government that “feels my pain” — I want a system that allows me to work towards the reduction of that “pain”.
Government plans can not do that.
You liberals are buying pure snake oil.
Any “new” plan will look much different than what you think.
And, under that plan,
People will still get sick.
People will still die.
Some claims will still be denied.
Some claims will still be denied.
Posted by: econ101 | January 01, 2008 at 09:32 PM
And people will DIE when their claims are denied.
Same quality as our Dept of Education, Dept of Agri, Dept of Homeland Security……….
You will NOT see a quality improvement for the majority.
You will see longer lines, less quality, and impersonalized care.
I’m from the government,
I’m here to help…………
We really should lobby congress that if you smoke, you are creating a higher risk for all of us with your second hand smoke. Further you will cost our healthcare system MORE. Therefore, your premium, should be HIGHER, your co-pay HIGHER, and you should pay a penalty for taking healthcare away from someone more deserving.
So you should be seen on a space available basis, under the new socialized medical system.
Afterall, you are going to be costing all of us more money and place a greater demand upon our system. (So what if you paid higher tax on your smokes).
The Big Healthcare Lie will get Hillary Clinton elected.
Though she will be impeached like her hubby was.
And if you eat fast food,,,,,,,,,,, and are over the recommended weight/body fat for your size – then you should pay MORE. You are in fact a higher risk.
Hey Max! Speaking of Clinton, did you hear something about housing starts being the slowest they have been since 1997? Isn’t that when Bill Clinton was president?
Worst president ever.
Ya Amway.
Some Lib posted that story the other day, about housing starts being the lowest since the Clinton administration.
Voting for Clinton II would bring back more bad housing (and other) news.
Let’s give American way a chance to redeem himself.
At least I don’t KNOW what his motives are.
Well first off? I bought my computer. A more knowledgeable friend helped me with it.
That’s what we libs do. Help each other.
Where was I?
Ok, let’s expand on the idea of government competing with private insurance and medical facilities. Even though your rather nasty shots and lack of any suggestions of your own didn’t earn it.
Well,
How many military bases do we have in this country? And on each of them a dispensary yes? A doctor too? I’m gueesing here. That is what you do when you try and solve problems instead of telling people suffering from them that it is their fault.
Well surely those base medicos and facilities could have greater use? The investment for our active and veteran military and the cumulative benefit to the uninsured population is certainly worth looking into?
Do we want to talk about ideas to help people or merely blame them for their situation? Because deal is? The pool of the “guilty” your take is only getting beigger.
Oh and you MIGHT want to read more carefully there American way.
“Your whining and crybaby shrilling is all a lie.”
And you applied that to me?
Well, I’m proposing solutions. You and some less savory folks are dishing out blame.
“Forcing a company to keep a position open for an entire year, for someone that isn’t there — is pretty much an admission that such person was not worth very much, to begin with.”
Well THAT’s an interesting take there paulthecon.
Um…does it extend to National guard personell deployed to Iraq? Or is it just for young mothers?
You cons really need to do a better job of defining the limits of your compassion.
You want to lower healthcare cost? Here are the problems: 1) reign in tort law and lawyers. We overtest so we don’t miss anything and get sued by some 300 lb, lard eating, chain smoking, only exercise they get is lifting food or cigarette to their mouth while changing the TV channel American. Fact is healthcare doesn’t cost a dime if you don’t need it. 2) Americans feel they have a sense of entitlement, but complain when there is no such thing. Cash speaks volume. If you have it, you get it. If you don’t, sorry, but take what you can get. 3) Insurance companies don’t want to pay for “preventative/maintenance” procedures, yet these early screens save money, and live, in the end. How many times have you heard a cancer patient say, “They caught it early?” No, what you hear are words like metastasis and spreading. 4) This will be very unpopular. Stop spending so much money on end-of-life. The majority of health care expenditures go to take care of patients in the last 6 months of their life. If this does not sit well with you, see #2.
Preview of HillaryCare! Whether you want it or not, you will be fined if you don’t buy HillaryCare!:
http://www.businessweek.com/ap/financialnews/D8TSLG1O0.htm
No health care? Higher fines in Mass.
By STEVE LeBLANC
The cost of not having health insurance in Massachusetts is going up.
When the new year begins Tuesday, most residents who remain uninsured will face monthly fines that could total as much as $912 for individuals and $1,824 for couples by the end of 2008, according to penalty guidelines unveiled by the Department of Revenue on Monday.
Individuals who failed to sign up for health insurance by the end of 2007 faced only a one-time loss of their $219 personal income tax exemption.
“Get in the pool”
That is the new sell line for one of the health insurance companies.
300 million Americans is a pretty big pool.
Huh, do you think maybe the private insurers and HMOs might be getting a little nervous?
That can only be good.
And those who are happy with their private insurance, will now have to settle for HillaryCare coverage which is:
?
Whatever Clinton says it should be.
(She hasn’t told us what our health coverage will be yet)
What is important to know about you Max is your attitude here.
Is the health of your fellow American important to you?
Health Insurance will remain, pretty much, the way it is now, in 5 years.
Those who claim otherwise are simply suffering from delusions of grandeur, grandiosity and “magical thinking”.
The symptoms of several personality disorders and mental disorders.
It won’t happen.
There are millions of “good Democrats” that don’t want to change the plan they are in now.
Many of those “Good Democrats” actually contribute to political campaigns, unlike some of the deadbeat Democrats on this Blog.
You don’t count, not even to your own Democrat Party, if they have to give up what they already have.
Very, very little will change.
If there is a plan for citizens (not illegals) it will not be as good as Medicare or private insurance.
It will also cost you a premium of some type.
Don’t forget, the “poor” have to refund Medicaid, out of their estates, when they die.
How is it “fair” to give the middle class “free” health insurance, when the poor have to give up their homes and cars, at death, to pay back the government?
Damn I’m glad I waited for it.
I can’t stay for the reaction.
I scare you econ don’t I?
I post, you react. Now having tried to defame me you have not even the courage to use my nic in addressing me.
That speaks volumes as to you Paul.
And your posts? Like I have said, who are you trying to “reassure”? Seems my read it is yourself.
The night is yours. And the dark is where you belong.
Pall,
Isn’t it interesting that the people who oppose decent health care for everyone the most are the same people who want everyone to pay them big bucks for “insurance” that may or may not be there when needed. I’d say your vested interest in the insurance scam colors any opinion you have of universal health care since it would mean you’d have to go find another ripoff scheme.
Jed
You need to do your homework, pal.
The fact is, Hillary is now proposing to force people to buy PRIVATE insurance.
You libs need to keep up.
—-
As far as Military Reserve and National Guard are concerned, the companies and employers, involved, benefit from National Defense.
Saying we should protect the jobs of those called to duty is a far cry from saying that we will hold a job, for one year, for every woman that has a baby.
That is absurd.
And, genious liberals, please show me a single person, anywhere, who is saying we should change Medicare, in any way, would you please?
That is where I do 90% of my health insurance work.
Long Term Care insurance takes another few percentage points.
You do not know what you are talking about.
—-
Lets put it this way:
Hillary has taken more money from Insurance companies, in a single month, than what I make in a year.
Do you really want to talk about “motives”??
She won’t to much, neither will the rest of them.
Because THEY DONT WANT TO MESS UP THE SYSTEM WE HAVE NOW — and, well, because they are funded by insurance companies and drug companies, too!
Hillary has received over $1Million from Health Insurance Companies:
http://www.associatedcontent.com/article/383412/hillary_clintons_mandatory_health_insurance.html
There was a piece in Tuesday’s Kansas City Star about Mike Huckabee. When asked why Republic Party candidates call every one of the Democrats’ health care proposals “socialized medicine,” Huck’s answer was: “Because we want to win.”
Actually, it’s kind of refreshing honesty from Huckabee. It explains why Mitt Romney’s health care reform position in Massachusetts — a carbon copy of Senators Clinton and Obamas — is now something he denies he ever held (just like his pro-choice and pro-gay marriage claims he claimed to have held… just “to get elected.” Why did Rudy Giuliani promise the gay community he’d preside at their marragies when he was mayor of NYC? “Just to get elected.”
Why has John McCain changed his attitude toward the religious right? “Just to get elected.”
Why did Huckabee contradict himself four times in the span of a minute and a half on last Sunday’s “Meet the Press” when he was asked about his immigration policy? “Just to get elected.”
Why are the two most articulate (and, in some ways, convincing) voices of traditional conservatism — Alan Keyes and Ron Paul — marginalized by the Faux Noise Channel and the Republic Party masters? “They just can’t get elected.”
If the GOP front runners were as honest as some sincere contributors to WE Blong — people such as “econ101″ and “Max” and “Hank” and “GMC70″ and “ksgrm,” et al — they just couldn’t get elected. That’s why the cons in this forum refuse to stand up and express their support for any of the Republic Party candidates; they’re gonna go with whomever’s lies to the Republic Party caucuses and primaries eke out some kind of victory, “just to get elected.”
My candidate in the Democratic primaries, John Edwards, may not get elected precisely because he hasn’t changed his platform “just to get elected.”
If somebody could hack into the Gallup Poll and the results turned out the most important issue to get elected was, say, shaved pussies, every Republic Party candidate would show up at every campaign appearance with a can of Foamy, an Atra razor, and a tabby… “just to get elected.”
And, genious liberals, please show me a single person, anywhere, who is saying we should change Medicare, in any way, would you please?
Posted by: econ101
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medicare_%28United_States%29#Criticism
Criticism
Medicare faces continuing financial issues. In its 2006 annual report to Congress, the Medicare Board of Trustees reported that the program’s hospital insurance trust fund could run out of money by 2018. The trustees have made such projections in the past, but this one was bleaker than the outlook reported in 2005.[11]
The fundamental problem is that the ratio of workers paying Medicare taxes to retirees drawing benefits is shrinking at the same time that the price of health care services per person is increasing.[12][13] Currently there are 3.9 workers paying taxes into Medicare for every older American receiving services. By 2030, as the baby boom generation retires, that is projected to drop to 2.4 workers for each beneficiary. Medicare spending is expected to grow by about 7 percent per year for the next 10 years.[14] As a result, the financing of the program is out of actuarial balance, presenting serious challenges in both the short-term and long-term.[15]
Part of the cost of Medicare is fraud, which government auditors estimate costs Medicare billions of dollars a year.[16][17] The Government Accountability Office lists Medicare as a “high-risk” government program in need of reform, in part because of its vulnerability to fraud and partly because of its long-term financial problems.[18]
Popular opinion surveys show that the public views Medicare’s problems as serious, but not as urgent as other concerns. In January 2006, the Pew Research Center found 62 percent of the public said addressing Medicare’s financial problems should be a high priority for the government, but that still put it behind other priorities.[19] Surveys suggest that there’s no public consensus behind any specific strategy to keep the program solvent.[20]
A study by the Government Accountability Office evaluated the quality of responses given by Medicare contractor customer service representatives to provider (physician) questions. The evaluators assembled a list of questions, which they asked during a random sampling of calls to Medicare contractors. The rate of complete, accurate information provided by Medicare customer service representatives was 15%.[21]
Currently, in almost all states a hospital’s ability to participate in the Medicare and Medicaid programs is decided by a private company with a monopoly, the Joint Commission. Rebecca Wise, CEO of TÜVHS, has said “Choice and competition are the hallmarks of a free market…. Can you think of an industry with a more profound impact on our lives than healthcare? Yet there is a much higher chance of you getting the wrong dosage of medicine in a hospital than there is of a manufacturer putting the wrong chip on a circuit board. It’s a failure of the system not the people.” [3] This situation may not be in the public’s interest.
“”"Your standard of living is roughly 20% to 30% LESS than the American average, last time that I checked.
Canadian socialism is a big reason why Canada is a poorer country.”"”
I didn’t see any evidence of that when I was there. Before I went there I thought they all lived in little igloos with no electricity but they seem to live pretty good= at least in Toronto. I didn’t ask them if they were hungry or had food though.
“”"BTW Max, I have never received a handout in my life from the government or anyone else…so you can quit sterotyping me that way.”"”
Yes you do. You got a handout when you pulled out of your driveway onto the socialist road in front of your house. I think we need to switch to where you build the road in front of your own house and your neighbour does likewise. You can pour your own concrete from Home Depot and build your section and your neighbour can hire a concrete layer to build his section. And then each of you can stop all vehicles to pay a toll as they drive over your section of the street. And then we will pay 8 tolls to get down the block and then….. never mind
Oh ok I get it Paul.
You mean what you say. Until you change your mind to keep your argument going.
No person is worth their company keeping a job open a year. Your words. Oh but Paul grants special dispensation for military service….when I reminded him of it.
But new mothers? Nah not for them.
Sometimes it is so easy…
“You got a handout when you pulled out of your driveway onto the socialist road in front of your house. I think we need to switch to where you build the road in front of your own house and your neighbor[sic] does likewise.”
Posted by: Kev | January 02, 2008 at 06:03 AM
Why are the roadways the business of the Federal Government? Do you think a bean counter in DC gives a rat’s ass how your road is maintained? Wouldn’t it be far more reasonable for your city, county, or state to maintain the roadways within its borders?
Hmmmm, big government misappropriating funds or local government (and assumingly more transparent) handling local issues…
econ101: First, change your handle, you know litte of basic ecomonics. As well as maternity leave we also keep jobs open for the reservists serving with the Armed Force on active duty, more proof of our lack productivity no doubt. We are reasonably happy to live with our decisions,don’t want to and cannot possibly impose them on anyone, but I reall years ago my old man told me that when someone belittles what you enjoy and attacks it without provocation it may be they are unhappy or feel inadequate about their own situation. I am not trying to sell or convince you of anything, nor have I denegrated your system anywhere in these posts, just trying to qualify what universal insurance means for there is a lot of misrepresentation as to its’ aims and objects out there. If private coverage works for you good, for Americans ain’t stupid folks, at least not the ones I’ve met, some of whom are members of my family.
Max, I’m not “begging” for handouts for my family, asshole. I’m just making the point that people shouldn’t have to lose their shirts to get the health care they need.
I suppose when you’re 65 (maybe you already are) you won’t take advantage of Medicare, because to you, that would be taking a government handout?
And I’m not advocating for “free” health care, Max, I’m advocating for “affordable” health care. Even today people with Medicaid have co-pays. No one really gets a free ride.
When I had cancer, I paid out about $4,000 out of pocket, even with good health insurance. I think that was fair.
I’m very thankful I HAD insurance, because I would have hated to sell my house or use our retirement money in order to pay for my treatment, no one should have to do that.
“You got a handout when you pulled out of your driveway onto the socialist road in front of your house. I think we need to switch to where you build the road in front of your own house and your neighbor does likewise.”
No, I pay taxes and I also paid specials for the road in front of my house. Granted, someone else did the work, but it wasn’t free. LOL
There are the resources to do a government branch of health care easily. It can compete effectively with private care and insurance which will be forced by the new competition to lower prices.
Posted by: J R | January 01, 2008 at 07:46 PM
Well surely those base medicos and facilities could have greater use? The investment for our active and veteran military and the cumulative benefit to the uninsured population is certainly worth looking into?Posted by: J R | January 01, 2008 at 10:17 PM
So your “easily” solution to the so-called healthcare problem is to open the gates of the Veterans Administration – to American’s poor?
What a huge, huge burden you would place on an already stretched thin veterans healthcare program. A program already under fire for failing to take care of our Iraq/Afghan vets!
An administration already packed with bureacracy, paperwork (lost SSAN’s), and doctors with full patient lists?
Not to mention the fact that you would completely delude the very foundation on which the Dept of Veteran Affairs hospital network was created. They exist soley to take care of our Veterans’. Men and women who gave of their lives for our country.
No problem for J R… Just take the unemployed, nonworking, and put them in the same waiting line.
I stand by my initial post. You don’t know squat.
Kev
My 20% standard of living differential figure is correct, Canada has a lower cost of living, and a lower standard of living, than the United States.
Yes, I think members of the military deserve special protection.
No, I do not think that those special job and legal protections should apply to anyone else.
I don’t hear too many vets complaining about the care they receive…and the system is already in place to take care of the poor…what we need is affordable health care for the average working American who can’t afford private insurance but doesn’t qualify for Medicaid or Medicare. If we took the profit out of health care we could easily afford it. Sure the drug and insurance companies won’t make billions in profits, but oh well.
NN
You claim you don’t want to force your system on anyone else. — You sure seem to want to defend it!
Why, on Earth, are you on THIS Blog, otherwise?
Further, it is not my intention to “belittle” you. It is my intention to point out the pros and cons of the decisions that we must make.
You seem to advocate a socialist approach.
I have proven that Canada has an economic problem: Slow economic growth. I believe your slow growth problems are tied, directly, to your socialist policies.
Those are your choices, to be made in Canada, for sure.
However, if I start posting on Canadian Blogs, I don’t think I will whine when attacked for my views. It seems rather hypocritical, for you to claim that your system is better, and then cry when I expose the sacrifices and negatives that Canadians have accepted, in return for the Canadian system.
“If we took the profit out of health care we could easily afford it. Sure the drug and insurance companies won’t make billions in profits, but oh well.”
Posted by: Mary Caruso | January 02, 2008 at 10:28 AM
Yeah, and nursing staff should only make minimum wage, forever. Regardless of experience or education. A nurse is a nurse is a nurse. Minimum wage.
How about instead of some gigantically enormous pathetically underperforming Fed Gov’t monolith, the states provide health care for its citizens. What is the last federal program you’ve seen work?
You take the profits away from pharmaceutical companies and you take away their R&D funding. Do we have all the medications we need now? Or do you think we should develop just a few more?
Mary
If we take the profit out of our transporation system, will we have:
Cheaper automobiles?
Cheaper air transportation?
If we take the profit out of food production, will we have:
Cheaper grocery bills?
Cheaper restaurant bills?
Nope!
The profit motive actually keeps costs down, when competition is in the mix.
You can stand on your original words there econ. That being that no one was a valuable enough worker that their job should be kept open a year. Your words, not mine. Crabwalking from them only further exposes you.
Amway? I didn’t hint a thing about the veterans administration. I DID speculate that military dispensaries and medical units could serve a function in addressing the health care crisis. If I was not specific enough in my wording, I implied greater funding for same.
Um does the other side even HAVE any ideas? Or is it just more blame the victim? See cause as the number of uninsured and poorly covered increases along WITH costs? Well all you get is more people to look down your nose at.
And I kinda hope some of you all get to join that group. It might teach you something.
Is it true that American pharmaceutical companies sell their wares cheaper to buyers outside the USA? Which is one reason why Americans have turned to Canada to purchase their drugs?
Or Canada buys in a volume which allows a lower per unit cost?
Either way: If the drugs are made in the USA, we should pay the same price as consumers outside the USA. If that means our government buys the drugs and distributes them wholesale, to garner a lower unit cost – so be it.
“Um does the other side even HAVE any ideas? Or is it just more blame the victim?”
YES I BLAME THE VICTIM, WHEN THE VICTIM HAS A HORRIBLE ATTITUDE AND IS THE VICTIM OF HIS OWN STUPIDITY!
“What is the last federal program you’ve seen work?”
Let me see…Medicare and Medicaid work pretty well. The system the VA has in place isn’t perfect, but it’s adequate. They at least pay for medical treatment for those who need it. I can’t say the same for private insurance carriers…they make a mission out of NOT paying for treatment in order to increase their profits. As far as drug companies, they spend literally billions on advertising, which has a negative impact on Americans but has really increased their bottom line..and don’t believe all the BS that they have to charge what they do for drugs because of the research involved, most of their profits go for advertising, not research, so they can sell more drugs.
There is no reason to decrease what healthcare workers make, that’s not the reason why health care is so expensive in this country, in fact most healthcare workers are over worked and underpaid in order to increase the bottom line of the “non profit” hospitals who buy up real estate so they can expand their facilities in order to make even more money.
We need to overhaul the whole system so that every citizen can get health care and medical treatment without going bankrupt.
Little early for the all caps aint it paulie?
Oh and thanks for admitting you have no ideas other than blaming ALL the people who are uninsured and poorly covered as ya just did.
Kittrel
Americans do indeed pay more for pharmaceuticals. I don’t have the answer as to why. Probably some one does.
“You can stand on your original words there econ. That being that no one was a valuable enough worker that their job should be kept open a year. Your words, not mine. Crabwalking from them only further exposes you.”
I walk away from nothing. Keeping a job open, for one entire year, for “maternity leave” — pretty much says that the person, involved, CAN be replaced. The job must NOT be worth much, if a company can, reasonbly, go without that person for a year and not hire a replacement! How on Earth could any professional person be gone for one year, come back, and pick up where they left off? I can see where assembly line workers might handle this, or hospital workers, but it would be a huge strain.
Yes, it is a strain on businesses to provide a similar benefit, to reservists and national guard troops. However, this is a shared sacrifice for national defense. These laws actually INCREASE the number of people willing to serve in our Reserve units.
The problem with maternity leave is that the company is FORCED to keep jobs available for people who OFTEN abuse the system, and do not come back.
This contributes to higher unemployment. Companies that keep the position “open” might not hire anyone else, and then that pregnant mom, often, “changes her mind”.
It is a stupid policy, a government mandate that destroys productivity.
My Medicare and Medicaid patients get much better care than my patients who have private insurance. We have to fight for every little thing we do for those who have private insurance, and we often can not give them the care they need because the private companies refuse to pay for it, even when it’s necessary for their recovery.
When I had cancer, I had to fight tooth and nail just to get the treatment I needed, that wasn’t right. It was stressful enough to fight cancer, but it was more stressful fighting with my insurance company for every little thing, including my reconstruction surgery. Now the law has changed and they can’t deny reconstruction anymore to breast cancer victims, but 8 yrs ago they tried every trick in the book to deny mine.
Or is it just more blame the victim?
There is no “victim” here. Some people are poor and will live a life less or marginally less prosperous than others. There will always be poor.
Provide for the 10 percent of Americans who meet this category.
But do not throw the baby out with the bath water. Most of the 300 million Americans HAVE healthcare/insurance available to them.
Do not change an entire private system to take care of the needs of a very small minority.
With federal involvement, the odds are they will mess it up worse than you imagine it is today.
I’m reading herein that there are programs available to those in the small minority without care.
Leave the rest of us alone. Your problem is you see this as something I am responsible for. I am not. I am only responsible for my families healthcare.
Admit you are a socialist and want others to pay for your insurance/healthcare.
I have no obligation under our form of government to pay for your healthcare. At least not yet.
I doubt you will like it when I do. Because I will ensure anyone who contributes to their own ill health (smoking,alcohol,fat food, overweight, etc…), pays a higher price for insurance (risk factors which I have to pay for my own).
Socialism must take care of the baby from cradle to grave. You cannot start after they develope unhealthy lifestyles.
But until you succeed in bluing all America, and forcing me to play and pay, I will support the healthcare plan which works for the vast majority of Americans today.
I have a great idea:
Get a job that provides health insurance — or
Buy your own health insurance!
(Hillary is going to force you to, anyway, why not do it now?)
Ever TRYING to give you credit American way…
I said there was a role for government in seeing to it that all Americans have health care. HOW we do that I don’t care.
How about a few ideas instead of the usual fear and the me and mine bit?
“What is the last federal program you’ve seen work?”
“Let me see…Medicare and Medicaid work pretty well.”
Then I guess the health care problem is solved.
Econ101…how do I buy my own health insurance when my husband loses his job? I’ve had cancer and the only insurance I can buy is a policy with a rider stating it won’t cover my treatment if my cancer comes back.
And with his history of high blood pressure (genetic..he tries to eats right, takes his medicine, works out, and he’s never been overweight), even if we could get private insurance, I’m not sure we could afford the premiums.
What would you suggest for those like us?
Medicare and Medicaid are both facing massive deficits, in the future, Mary.
In fact, private pay and private insurance help pay the “cost shifting” of the government programs, which frequently pay less than the full cost, for those patients.
When government no longer has anyone to “shift” the cost onto — well, then costs will go up even faster.
“Then I guess the health care problem is solved.”
Sol, what would YOU suggest for those who can’t afford private insurance but don’t qualify for Medicare, Medicaid, or VA?
Mary
You are a smart, professional person.
I am sure YOU can get a job that provides health insurance.
Also, if YOU already had coverage, at work, your husbands loss of coverage would be a “life event” that would guarantee your husband coverage, under YOUR plan.
If all else fails, you should look into the KHIA plan:
http://www.khiastatepool.com/
Mary,
The STATE to step up.
An interesting idea that sol. State provided health care would be a way for states to draw people. Certainly there are states that could use the added attraction of free or more affordable health care.
It may be just too big for the states just alone though.
Yes, there are people who have no insurance through no fault of their own.
There are, already, programs for most of those people.
States “competing” for the uninsured?
Why?
Why not?
JR,
If you eliminated the federal income tax, the State could increase (or create) taxes to fund the project. The state may have a blanket program or delegate to the counties, cities, townships… whatever granularity works best for each state.
At this point, each state has the ability to negotiate its own deals based on the needs of the residents. Makes more sense to me than some globalized policy.
Well I can’t stay.
I don’t think you can eliminate the federal income tax. Too messy.
And while your idea does have legs sol…
More competition between states, counties, even cities COULD help.
But we don’t want to become TOO fragmented a society and culture even for a great cause.
Why not?
Because NOBODY wants you!
I really don’t want to leave a job I love to find one with better benefits..and if a major corporation knew I had a history of cancer, I doubt I’d get hired anyway.
I really think nationalized health care is a good thing for a lot of reasons. One, it would guarantee everyone access to medical care they could afford. Two, people wouldn’t have to stay in dead end jobs they hate just for the benefits. Three, the “haves” would have to stop looking down their noses at the “have nots”..because everyone would qualify for the same benefits. Four, Drug and insurance companies wouldn’t make obscene profits at the expense of consumers.
Those are just a few positives, and there would be more..which I think outweigh the negatives of having a universal health system.
Paulie as much fun as it is exposing you for the soulless shill you are, I have, as I said, other things to do.
How I am talking about millions of people uninsured or poorly covered and you have reduced all of them to just me I don’t get the stretch.
I guess your whole line of posting here may be rooted in the fact that you sold or still sell insurance. Anyways, aside from making yourself look foolish, I don’t know what you are doing to propose solutions to a problem MOST Americans think needs addressing.
Why not?
Because NOBODY wants you!
Posted by: econ101 | January 02, 2008 at 11:37 AM
What an amazing argument. How philanthropic of you.
JR,
The US is a federalist nation. We are supposed to act like 50 united countries. There would have to be some kind of mechanism set up that if one were to be visiting another state and became ill or injured that the ‘sponsor’ or ‘home’ state would pick up the tab. Really shouldn’t be that hard to accommodate.
The program should NOT be set up for all citizens. Citizens that can provide their own, SHOULD provide their own.
As for the IRS, not too messy at all. There would still have to be some kind of ‘tax branch’ of the federal government, but income tax would be a breeze to eliminate. If we brought all of our troops currently on foreign soil home, we would save a trillion (apr) a year. That would make up for the ‘lost revenue’ of income tax.
No person is worth their company keeping a job open a year. Your words. Oh but Paul grants special dispensation for military service….when I reminded him of it.
But new mothers? Nah not for them.
Sometimes it is so easy…
Posted by: J R
They do not keep the military person’s job open for a year. S/he is to be reemployed upon return, as mentioned earlier. This was mentioned before your second comment. If their jobs were kept open for a year, you would have a valid argument.
Returning service-members are to be reemployed in the job that they would have attained had they not been absent for military service, this is known as the “escalator principle” (See FISHGOLD v. SULLIVAN DRYDOCK & REPAIR CORP., 328 U.S. 275 (1946) ), with the same seniority, status and pay, as well as other rights and benefits determined by seniority.
I don’t have a problem with Hilary’s plan as long as it’s affordable for the average person. Most people can’t afford $1,000 plus per month premiums.
As for the IRS, not too messy at all. There would still have to be some kind of ‘tax branch’ of the federal government, but income tax would be a breeze to eliminate. If we brought all of our troops currently on foreign soil home, we would save a trillion (apr) a year. That would make up for the ‘lost revenue’ of income tax.
Posted by: SolDevVB | January 02, 2008 at 11:44 AM
Not a bad idea, but better check those numbers again.
Hey Mary
I need help for a project this weekend and I don’t have your email.
Are ya free? Let me know or get my email from someone who has it or get yours to someone.
Not a bad idea, but better check those numbers again.
Posted by: littlejohn | January 02, 2008 at 11:50 AM
What would be more accurate?
What would be more accurate?
Posted by: SolDevVB | January 02, 2008 at 11:52 AM
Less than half that amount is the entire DOD budget
Sol Dev
HUH?
And how do we pay for everything else? Your math is WAY off!
===
Yes, I meant what I said, liberals, NOBODY wants to increase the number of uninsured or sick people in any particular state, unlesss you are in the state next door, shipping your sick across the border!
Health care problem? Health care
has always been a problem!!! Because people are always getting sick! If only we were not so spoiled so that we can imagine a world before the arrival of CT scans and MRI’s and other live saving technology that costs buku $$$.
What if you lived 100 years ago before the advent of health insurance? Do you know what would happen if you got cancer? You would die very soon. Even the rich were doomed to die from cancer and even the most routine ailments.
One example that brings to mind is that of G. W. Vanderbilt who died of appendicitus in his mid 30s. That guy spend millions to build the Biltmore house but died of something relatively easy to overcome today.
Be thankful for the health insurance and the medical knowledge that is available even if it does come at a “high” cost.
Technology costs money, and that includes the kind that saves lives. It may be darn expensive but at least you have a choice to buy it if you feel it is a good financial decision to do so.
The best protection is always to CYA by taking top notch care of your own health and be prepared to go when it fails.
I’m working this weekend, but I’ll help if I can..I’m in the phone book, just call!
I don’t hear too many vets complaining about the care they receive…and the system is already in place to take care of the poor…what we need is affordable health care for the average working American who can’t afford private insurance but doesn’t qualify for Medicaid or Medicare. If we took the profit out of health care we could easily afford it. Sure the drug and insurance companies won’t make billions in profits, but oh well.
Posted by: Mary Caruso
Vets have been complaining about the lousy VA system for more than 30 years. The problem with the VA and the military medical system is the same. Drs, etc get more pay in private practice and it is hard to get or keep quality drs. Many of the VA docs are horrible at best. Many of the military docs stay in long enough for experience or to benefit in other ways, then they go private.
rfl, Yes, it’s expensive, so expensive, most people can’t afford it…it’s not just a simple decision to buy treatment or not.
So are you just saying if a person doesn’t have the money, they should just expect to die?
Got to go to work…it’s a joke that those on Medicaid have to pay back the government for their care when they die. All of my patients will go out of this world like they came into it…helpless and broke. Not one has any assets and not only will the government NOT get anything back, it will also have to pick up the tab for their cremation.
See ya all later!
REP. PAUL: We have to cut spending. You can’t get rid of the income tax if you don’t get rid of some spending. But, you know, if you got rid of the income tax today you’d have about as much revenue as, as we had 10 years ago, and the size of government wasn’t all that bad 10 years ago. So there’re sources of revenues other than the income tax. You know, you have, you have tariff, excise taxes, user fees, highway fees. So, so there’s still a lot of money. But the real problem is spending. But, you know, we lived a long time in this country without an income tax. Up until 1913 we didn’t have it.
REP. PAUL: To operate our total foreign policy, when you add up everything, there’s been a good study on this, it’s nearly a trillion dollars a year. So I would think if you brought our troops home, you could save hundreds of billions of dollars. It’s, you know, it’s six months or one year or two year, but you can start saving immediately by changing the foreign policy and not be the policeman over the world. We should have the foreign policy that George Bush ran on. You know, no nation building, no policing of the world, a humble foreign policy. We don’t need to be starting wars. That’s my argument.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/22342301/
I think if one wants Gov run health care one needs to look where they do run it VA, Indian reservations, and look at the quality of care and I doubt anyone who choose it. Who wants Walter Reed quality of care? And the fact that a 1/3 of the homeless are veterans shows the gaping holes in the coverage of the VA system, with that kind of success rate I cant wait to have to get some sort of procedure done.
Mary
The state of Kansas claims it gets back quite a bit, through Medicaid Estate Recovery:
http://www.srskansas.org/ISD/ees/estate_recovery.htm
That $42 Million, in Kansas alone, came from somewhere!
For US budget informaiton:
http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0873746.html
Mary,
We all should expect to die since that is what we all do no matter how good our coverage is.
But what I am saying is, the level of care available is actually very good and it will improve as more technology becomes available due to the profit motive.
Living in modern, developed America, even a poor person has better chances then the rich millionaire 100 years ago in any country. That does not mean that a poor person today receives the same care as a rich person today. The rich can afford to pay for top notch treatment, and the poor can not. Is that fair? I say yes.
The rich, by paying top dollar for their care, are bringing more and more health care technology into existence. It trickles down so to speak as all technology does. So today’s high end care that is accesible only to the rich, will in tomorrow’s world be available for the poor. It’s that simple.
You feel that reconstructive surgery is a must have for all breast cancer patients. Maybe so but is that so important? You are alive today! That is good news! My Mom died of ovarian cancer this year at the age of 61 and all I can say is, I would be happy if I were you to be able to demand comestic surgery.
Whether or not my Mom could have received better care and lived a few more years if she had millions in the bank is beyond me. I do know that she did the best she could and followed the doctors orders and she still died. It’s just life, and we all die someday.
Enjoy the breaks that you have and be happy. Life will someday seem cruel, but fortuntately for me and my Mom we believe in a much better world beyond this one, so its not so bad after all.
I really don’t want to leave a job I love to find one with better benefits..
Posted by: Mary Caruso | January 02, 2008 at 11:42 AM
And therein lies the crux of the entire healthcare problem.
Change a healthcare system that the vast majority of Americans enjoy coverage under – so you don’t have to change your job.
Selfish or what? Screw the entire nation because you don’t want to take personal responsibility.
Selfish, you got that right AW.
If I don’t want to pay for my own health care, why should I?
Kansas has got to be one or more of these nics!
I’m emailing the editors now!
Just wait.
Econ101: You gotta change your handle! May I suggest you stay away from Polisci 101, Geo 101 or Logic 101 a well? Get on to worldwide blogs “noname”, it’s amazing the diverse opinion out there, heck it’s a learning curve! So are you telling me to stay off “your” blog? OK by me.
NN
You may post where ever you wish.
However, I sincerely doubt that you are really in Canada. I think you are hiding behind a nic to push socialized health care, by claiming, somehow, that Canada is “better” — and it just isn’t.
If I was arrogant enough to go on Canadian Blogs and badmouth YOUR system, however, I am sure that other Canadians would think that to be a bit odd.
I, likewise, think it is a bit odd for you to be so interested in a Wichita, Kansas Blog thread on healthcare.
Maybe you are in Canada, maybe not.
You absolutely don’t know what you are talking about.
And no one who knows you believes a single word you say paulthecon.
It aint a stretch that NN could be Canadian. Sol aint local. Neither is Max. Tara posts from Hawaii and we used to have a poster from the Netherlands.
You keep on keepin’ on NN. Don’t sweat paul. No one else does.
JR, I have NEVER stated my location.
Why do you assume I am not right there next door to you even?
Max,
You can’t be “right next door” to JR. From your postings, I gather you are a working class management type.
You are not in any ghetto part of town! LOL
Amway, you don’t know where JR’s mommy lives though.
JR goes to mom’s house to blog, in a slightly better neighborhood, that has electricity.
Who ever got the idea that under universal healthcare coverage people would all of a sudden get sicker?
It’s like thinking once you hire a fire department, people will go willy-nilly and burn down houses.
The healthcare crisis is based on payment for healthcare. For-profit insurers deny (i.e., ration) coverage every day to protect executive perks and stockholders’ dividends.
Americans pay way too much for the healthcare we get because primary care — the most economically efficient healthcare — is priced out of the market for many, many people. So when they get really sick — and need a transplant or drastic measures — it costs much more.
Do you have health insurance? You’re paying for the people who don’t and end up in the hospital with pneumonia when a routine vaccination could have prevented the influenza that caused it. Do you pay taxes? You’re paying for the Kansas School for the deaf for kids whose parents couldn’t afford a pediatrician’s visit to treat a neonatal ear infection.
On December 31st I happened to be standing behind a woman who was transferring funds between assorted accounts associated with the Galichia Medical Group; corporate funds, personal funds, this way, that way. A couple of the checks involved in the transactions (I always pick the slow line at Dillon’s, too) and I could see $750,000 going one way and $500,000 going the other. All part of some last-minute-of-the-year tax strategy, I’m sure.
And part of me has no gripe with that. Galichia is a good surgeon and deserves to be paid well for what he was. But it seemed a bit odd to follow a lengthy multi-million-dollar transaction with an out-of-state birthday check from my maiden aunt. (BTW, thanks for the $5, Aunt Helen!)
It sounds pretty dramatic, and it’s *very* dramatic if it happens to *you,* but the fact is: heart by-pass surgery has a lower mortality rate than an appendomectomy. Galichia’s a heart surgeon and he can afford hot-and-cold running Ferraris.
Again. No gripes and no jealousy toward Dr. Galichia intended or implied. But the guy who squeezed me in to his full office schedule the day I fell on the ice and broke my wrist perhaps deserves a bit larger piece of the healthcare pie. He’s stuck driving a Buick. No doctor should be stuck driving a Buick.
Ah, but the guy who’s CEO of my health insurance company has hot-and-cold running Learjets at his disposal, a vacation house in Aspen, a boat to take him to his villa in the Virgin Islands and a $85 million golden parachute if he happens to fall short of the company’s projected dividends next quarter. That’s why he pays very smart people $60-to-80 grand a year for no other reason than to deny payment for healthcare to his company’s subscribers.
(Ooooh, and if we got rid of for-profit insurance companies, all those bean-counters would be put out of work! Well, and when we won World War II, all those Auschwitz guards found themselves unemployed.)
So be it.
Universal healthcare coverage is gonna put “econ101″ out of work, too. No wonder he’s concerned.
Your *tax* bill might be higher with univeral coverage? Maybe. (But just “maybe.”) But then, if you now have insurance, you won’t be paying for that ski lodge in Aspen, or the boat or, perhaps, Dr. Galichia’s second or third Ferrari. But my primary care physician might afford a Beemer.
And the kid on the other side of town who happened to pick the wrong parents might get that flu shot that doesn’t result in you paying for 12 years of tuition at the Kansas School for the Deaf.
And — which is most important to me, anyway — I would have been able to to cash Aunt Helen’s birthday check a bit quicker.
Thanks, Aunt Helen! And my love to Uncle Bryan, too!
noname: (formerly Econ101) Where did I say Canadians have it better or for that matter defend/condemn anything? Explaining the concept is all I did old chappie, you absord things that aren’t there.
Well I see Amway continues to have nothing to add.
And MAX? I thought we had lost you.
Did you come back to answer the question I asked you at 11:04 yesterday?
Or merely to reaffirm your continuing lack of class with not so clever little shots?
noname:(formerly econ101) you’re gonna hate this, but the UN Human Development Council Index ratings for life expectancy, literacy, education and standard of living list the top 4 countries as Iceland, Norway, Australia and Canada. The US came in 12th.
Universal healthcare coverage is gonna put “econ101″ out of work, too. No wonder he’s concerned.Posted by: MonkeyHawk
Keep dreaming MonkeyH. It ain’t a gonna happen. Big business rules.
They have money going to all your candidates too.
And the little old lady with all that money to swap out? What gets me are the little old ladies with oxygen tanks and wheelers – sitting at the dollar slot machines. For hours.
My thought was: All that social security and medicare money I’m paying going into machines!
Your thought would be:
All that money coulda gone to fund you suckers healthcare!!!
AW = One of the 263,000,000 Americans with healthcare and insurance.
Monkeyhawk, isn’t there a distinction between destroying something (the burning of houses) and using healthcare services?
dunt make no differenz to a Lib dimocrud.
burning of houses, nuclear bombs, flag burning, screaming with wet panties all belong to the whining rights of dimocruds.
throw in sum pot smokin n sum whinin bout peeps that makes mor than $10/hour and u hav a compleet dimocrud.
“anonymous” –
Not to opponents of universal healthcare coverage.
Please try to keep up.
The primary reason that Democrats can’t get anything done, on the “health care” front, is that most Democrat activists are too ignorant of the current system, and the problems with coordinating existing programs, to be much help in any real “solution”.
And, as has been pointed out by others, the “uninsured” population is not that big.
Of that number, many are illegal aliens.
Many others can afford insurance, they simply refuse to buy insurance.
Pall,
“You need to do your homework, pal.
The fact is, Hillary is now proposing to force people to buy PRIVATE insurance.”
After the number the insurance and drug companies did on her last time, and their subsequent failure to convince the public that universal health care would destroy the economy and bring about a communist revolution, it doesn’t surprise me a bit that now they’re trying to buy her off. For such fair and honest and caring people, the insurance industry sure seems to have a lot of spare cash to sling around! Just like Al Capone did.
Pall,
“Many others can afford insurance, they simply refuse to buy insurance.”
Maybe they’re the ones that once tried to file a claim.
Come and listen to a story about a man named Jed
A poor mountaineer, barely kept his family fed,
Then one day he was shootin at some food,
And up through the ground came a bubblin’ crude.
Oil that is, black gold, Texas tea.
Well the first thing you know ol’ Jed’s a millionaire,
Kinfolk said Jed move away from there
Said Californy is the place you ought to be
So they loaded up the truck and moved to Beverly.
Hills, that is.
Swimmin pools, movie stars.
The Beverly Hillbillies!
Well now its time to say good-bye to Jed and all his kin.
And they would like to thank you folks fer kindly droppin in.
You’re all invited back again to this locality
To have a heapin helpin of their hospitality
Hillbilly that is. Set a spell. Take your shoes off. Y’all come back now, y’hear?
Canada sucks, where economic growth and opportunity are concerned:
“Most people attribute Canada’s cheaper drugs to the fact that the government imposes price controls on patented medicines. In fact, they’re not the primary cause.
Canada doesn’t control the retail price of drugs – only what drug manufacturers can charge wholesalers. Wholesale and retail mark-ups are left to the market. Anyway, many drug makers don’t even charge the full price permitted under federal rules.
In fact, research shows that most of the price differential on patented pharmaceuticals can be explained by two factors other than price controls: 1) differences between each country’s standard of living and 2) legal liability issues.
While our respective standards of living used to be quite comparable, Canada’s has been steadily falling; the average Canadian’s standard of living is 20 percent to 30 percent lower than the average American’s.”
http://www.nypost.com/seven/10032006/postopinion/opedcolumnists/the_cost_of_cheaper_drugs_opedcolumnists_brian_lee_crowley.htm
Canada does have great beer and fishing though.
If you can get used to hearing “eh” at the end of every sentence, eh!
What’s with all the sock-puppets all of a sudden? Does it have anything to do with the troll having supposedly “left” the blog? Or is it just coincidence?
IT must be Kansas.
Pall,
It would take a lot more that an old theme song to make me go away.
I must admit that your vociferous advocacy of global warming and the prospect of palm trees in Toronto does, along with their healthcare, make Canada look awfully inviting.
I have not posted under more than one nic.
noname: (formerly econ101) I think I’ll stick with the verifiable iternational stats., the New York Post (I read the article, which is nonsense and void of truth) is hardly a credible source, maybe the National Review has something even more offbase. Another stat.that’s just gonna kill you. When it comes to math and science results for teens internationally the results were Finland, Korea, Canada and Japan in 2007. Damn bunch of socialists all no doubt, including the educators an scorers. Between you any I noname, I’d consider it a true boost of esteem, value, national worth and international acceptance if the Jays could just win the World Series one more time. Now, that’s important.
Upon seeing this blog entry I wanted to relate my recent experience at HCA Wesley.
I was scheduled to have surgury, that the surreclear buckle in my eye from my retina detatchent in 94 had “disolved” and was poking out the lower part of my eye that I had to have it removed.
The day before the surgury, I was contacted by someone at Wesley asking for a co-pay. They told me that they had estimated the one day vist would amout to $17,000 dollars and wanted to know how much I was going to put down.
I argued the fact that I didn’t have the money for a co-pay, certainly not what they wanted me to co-pay and that I felt threatened.
I asked the woman are you threatening me, because I feel threatened. As if you are not going to let my Dr. use your facility if I don’t come up with a co-pay, and I did feel threatened especially the way she was almost demanding a co-pay.
I called my Dr. he said show up for the surgury and not to worry about of which I did exactly what my Dr. told me to do.
Barely a week after the sugury I got the bill in the mail. It was for $4000, although it had been “discounted 2 grand because I didn’t have insurrance. Which all in all was $10,000 less than what the woman had told me when they called me about a co-pay.
I payed what I could on the bill and have since recieved another bill afte they did cash my check. This time since I still couldn’t pay the bill in full I was instructed to call an 800 number and talk to their finatial services.
After jewing with me over monthly payments they finally asked me if they discounted the bill down to 3 grand if I could pay that in full, of which I cannot. Now they are sending me papers to see if I am eligible for finatial assistance.
I find it intriguing, that what was orginally quited as a 17 thousand dollar bill had made its way down to a 3 thousand dollar bill.
But that if I had had insurrance, they would have had no problem billing my inssureance company at least the 7 grand.
The medical system creates alot of its own problems much like our social system.
That they would accept less but would gounge an insurance company for more and blame the high cost of health care on the fact I cannot pay the bill in full if I am uninsurred.
And yet I cannot afford a 500 a month premium because the insurance company gouges me, because the hospital gounges them.
If I could afford the premiums I wouldn’t need the inssurance.
Whoever is to blame, its obviously one vicious circle and its not going to get any better soon.
I will say this, my Dr. didn’t bill me at all, except for the office visits.
At least there some compassion left in the world.
Yikes Charles.
Are you still able to see?
Thank you for sharing that very relevant experience here in a place where such stories need to be heard.
Pedant
I beat you on this one.
Canada’s standard of living was going DOWN under all three links I posted.
That they were all a few years old means that Canada is LOWER now, in comparison to the United States, not higher.
Posted by: econ101 | January 01, 2008 at 06:21 PM
Read it and weep, Mr. Humility:
Country Median household income national currency units Year PPP rate (OECD) Median household income (PPP)
Switzerland[19] 95,772 CHF 2003 1.76 $54,000
California, US[20] US State $54,000
United States $48,000 USD 2006 1.00 $48,000
Canada [21] $53,528 CAD 2005 1.25 $43,000
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Standard_of_living_in_the_United_States
————————————–
So Canada’s standard of living is, by the figures given by the Human Development Index, $43,000 compared to the US’s (with California) of $48,000.
The top 5 countries (plus California), from #1 to #5: Switzerland, California, USA, Canada, New Zealand, UK.
That’s 10.42%, econ101, not 20%. You were HALF right, I’ll give you credit for that.
But I’m sure NN will give you FULL credit for being an arrogant, self-aggrandizing dickhead for pompously lecturing him on the evils of Canadian health care.
And #1 Switzerland? LOL, they have national healthcare.
In fact, there’s only one country on that list without national healthcare…yet.
LOL
noname(formerly econ101) My granddaughter says I have to stop yanking your chain even though there ain’t much to yank. My excuse of it being so easy to do was met with a cross stare and the admonition being plain uncharitable and that I might have to mention it in confession. Properly scolded I must now leave the thread.
Charles, you have my sympathies…I went through the same thing when I had my cancer treatment.
Those who think we have the best healthcare system in the world have obviously never had to cope with a major illness.
The whole sytem needs to be overhauled..and soon.
Charles, you have my sympathies…I went through the same thing when I had my cancer treatment.
Those who think we have the best healthcare system in the world have obviously never had to cope with a major illness.
The whole sytem needs to be overhauled..and soon.
sorry for the double post.
And #1 Switzerland? LOL, they have national healthcare.
In fact, there’s only one country on that list without national healthcare…yet.
LOL
Posted by: Pedant | January 02, 2008 at 06:58 PM
Switzerland is half the size of Kansas with seven million people.
Big whupping deal!
Whuppie,
“Switzerland is half the size of Kansas with seven million people.”
That’s easily enough solved; just have Kansas Universal Healthcare Plan.
Pedant
The UN “Human Development Index” is a fraud.
It is designed to support the argument of socialists like you.
And we know it’s a fraud because Pall says so?
Of course Jed. Remember, paul is the guy who said the truth is what he believes it to be. He is also the guy who said “I have never lied here, not once.”
Pendant: I read that item just now (helluva article) however the Canadian dollar is expressed as around 75 cents American. Therefore would the figure based on both dollars, at a par now, exceed the US standing and just behind California? Our standard of living has certainly not appreciated 25% in 2 years, well not that I’ve noticed, just the value of the currency, so there must be other factors other than income for inclusion to arrive at standards of living. All those energy bucks (oil,natural gas)in Western Canada has driven the surge in the value of the Canadian dollar and I think if the price of oil declines so will the Canadian dollar.
Yes, when discussing what I believe, the truth IS what I say it is.
Some of the liberals, on this Blog, are left wing biggots that like to stereotype people and TELL them what they believe.
In fighting back, once, I said, clearly, “the truth, on that issue, is what I say it is”
— even if you are a mindreader!
And folks, standard of living and exchange rates are two different things.
Uh huh
What color is the sky in your world your holiness paul the 1st?
Whoever is to blame,
Posted by: Charles Simpson | January 02, 2008 at 06:21 PM
That be YOU.
YOU BE the one to blame.
Get a job. Even a minimum wage job with health coverage (at any fast-food chain) will give you a little more dignity then you have now.
Get a job where your communication skills only require you to read the numbers 1 through 15, make small change, and speak as little as possible.
A bigot Jew hater like you who can’t spell, might be able to keep such a job as long as you STFUP.
Whoever is to blame, its obviously one vicious circle and its not going to get any better soon.
I will say this, my Dr. didn’t bill me at all, except for the office visits.
At least there some compassion left in the world.
Posted by: Charles Simpson | January 02, 2008 at 06:21 PM
JR, you are a condescending toad.
Switching nics again Paul?
If he is still reading here, I apologize to Charles for the attacks you are getting here for no more than sharing a relevant story of the failures of our health care system.
Just when I thought paulthecon could not sink lower…
Bart, JR is not the Blog Editor. I am.
And on behalf of the Blog we say:
Go get a job and buy your own health insurance.
Damn and I thought Paul did my side good!
THIS is what fights national health care for the only western nation that does not have it.
Ya got your trolls, assorted nuts, and Paul.
Spitballs against the tide of the American people.
Nuff said, also blog monitor.
JR, are you a runner?
You remind me of someone I met running once.
Yeah?
What were you running from there Frank?
Not running from anything or anyone. You just sounded like a nice guy who helped me once when I was running my first 1/2 marathon years ago.
I liked the way you defended Charles above. Nasty people on this blog.
So JR, you run the Gobbler Grind Half Marathon before?
JR, you still there?
I’ve also run the KC Half Marathon, the Waddell & Reed Marathon, and a few others. They blur together after a few years.
Gobbler Grind Half Marathon
That ones funny, no matter who you are. Get er done.
Good luck in your next race.
They have such funny names for some of these races.
I want to run Grandma’s Marathon up in Minnesota/North Dakota/Canada some year.
Maybe I’ll stay out of last place for a change.
Best wishes in your races. I know they are not easy, our priests husband does triathlons and much as I would like to, health prevents me from the longer races.
16 miles was my limit, and I am not sure I can do half that now.
I did meet Billy Mills when he was in town last year, and he wasnt expected to win the 10,000 m race, but he did. He said he thought about giving up several times during the race and his daughter’s image kept coming to him encouraging him, and at the last, he put on a burst of speed and won.
ecpm101:You are right! Standard of living is described as the quantity and quality of goods and services delivered to a popualtion and how they are distributed usually meaning political freedom, education, health services, income and poverty rates. I just looked it up.
For the record, I believe that some liberal posters, on this Blog, like to troll on both sides of every issue. They do so to “discredit” the conservative side by being rude, on purpose.
However, I have not used any other nic but this one. All I do is alternate the cap and the small E. I do that for my own reasons.
I used to use my real name, but one of the nastier, liberal trolls liked to post outrageous comments, over my name, so I quit using my real name.
Anyway.
Those who fight dirty, on this Blog, generally don’t know how to win an argument based on brain power.
Those who think we have the best healthcare system in the world have obviously never had to cope with a major illness.
-Mary
No amount of health care is going to make the pain (financial and physical) of a major illness go away. Coping with a major illness is going to difficult no matter where you live!
Instead of being thankful that Mary survived her breast cancer experience (Due to the health care that she received), she is upset that she had to fight to get her reconstruction surgery paid for.
rfl..you really need to read my posts…I had to fight most of my treatment..not just the reconstruction. My husband and I paid our insurance premiums for over 15 yrs…when it came to getting the medical care I needed, you wouldn’t believe the games our insurance company played to deny my claims.
We may have the best health care, but one of the worst health care delivery systems….because it is based on greed and profits, NOT providing the medical treatment people need when they get sick.
P.S. You are a f**king moron.