There is no shortage of finger-pointing in education, as many worry that some students are still being left behind. Texas teacher Susan Creighton wrote in a Dallas Morning News commentary that adding competition to the educational job track would improve teaching performances. School districts should reward excellent performance with promotion or bonuses, just as the corporate world does, she said.
Creighton wrote: “In order for teaching to become a profession of prestige and respect in our society, we teachers need to be held accountable for the effectiveness of our teaching, in return for which we need to be rewarded with a respectable living wage commensurate with our performance.â€
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Teacher pay based on merit? Are you kidding me? How do you propose get the NEA to go along with this heresy?
“…we need to be rewarded with a respectable living wage commensurate with our performance.””
Living wage? They are, on average, being paid over $1,000 per week now. Sounds like they already have what they want.
over $1,000 per week now. Sounds like they already have what they want.
In Wichita, that’d be for a Ph.D, or 30 years service.
How much per week does your physician make with his doctorate?
No. That would be the average pay.
took a bit to find a stub…I guess you weren’t too far off. Master’s in SpEd and 8 years in district is $3747 gross. Around $2900 TH. Not considering the out of pocket for continuing education to stay current in field.
Average teacher salary is just over $41,000 in Kansas.
Susan Creighton doesn’t sound like she has much experience. The article doesn’t directly say how long she’s been teaching, but she makes reference to 6 years. That’s not very long in the field.
Hank Price
Posted January 14, 2008 at 6:40 am | Permalink
Teacher pay based on merit? Are you kidding me? How do you propose get the NEA to go along with this heresy?
I agree with Hank, the NEA union members will squash any deals to reward excellence in teaching.
The teachers today, although start out at a fairly low wage, get a health care package and other benefits. This is not a bad deal for someone with just a bachelor’s degree and no job experience. And, it’s 95 percent indoor work.
What about higher pay for different disciplines?
Every district in the state is squealing about not being able to find enough math and science teachers. Will the NEA allow districts to offer higher salaries for math and science teachers to encourage college students to move into those fields? Of course not.
The NEA ensures the same salary for the recent graduate who focused on higher level math as one who slid by with a concentration on art history. Way to look out for the kids, NEA.
We can’t pay teachers enough. They have the most important job in the world.
I’d give a lot more for a mediocre teacher than I would for a world class mid management bean counter.
It will be a good day when teachers have all the supplies and pay they need and your average CEO has to panhandle in the street for memo paper.
Oy vey, here we go again with the argument over teacher pay… How many times do we have to say it?? $1,000 per week is NOT the average pay for teachers in Wichita!! Fleetwood, where do you get that silly notion??
Teacher pay based on merit sounds like a wonderful idea on the face of it. But in reality, merit pay usually winds up being a matter of who has the brownest nose.
“$1,000 per week is NOT the average pay for teachers in Wichita!!”
Let’s say I am a shrimp boat captain. I work 10 months a year. I am off the other 2 months because there are no shrimp to catch.
I am paid $4000 per month. What is my weekly wage?
Fleetwood — Let’s see — You go from talking about how much you get per month… $4,000… Then you ask how much you get per week… Your ANNUAL salary is $40,000… So, your WEEKLY would be $40,000 divided by 52…
Right??
$769.23
Thank you Wiseman
“Snuffy Smith” posted –
“Teacher pay based on merit sounds like a wonderful idea on the face of it. But in reality, merit pay usually winds up being a matter of who has the brownest nose.”
Exactly.
My ex- was a high school teacher (and we subsidized her teaching with all sorts of expenditures) and, because she was teaching Spanish, her classroom often caught the ire of an Assistant Principal who complained about the “chatter.” The kids were speaking Spanish, for cryin’ out loud! That was the purpose of the class!
She called the Assistant Principal “straight rows people,” who was more impressed by silent classrooms than whether the kids were actually, ya know, learning!
How do you measure “good teachers.” Is a teacher who produces National Merit Scholars from a group of wealthy kids with professional parents better than the teacher who discovers a way to reach a marinal student and lift them up to Cs after years of Ds & Fs?
When I was in college, the best professor I had was castigated by his peers because he got his students really interested in Geography. “People are supposed to hate Geography 101,” was the consensus of his colleagues; Geography 101 was supposed to weed-out people who weren’t destined to major in the discipline.
I can only smirk when people rant about the “all-powerful” NEA. If the NEA were “all-powerful” every Kindergarten teacher would be paid as much as a cardiologist. The attacks against the NEA are mere Republic Party boilerplate memes spurred because the Republic Party doesn’t like it that educated people and educators tend to vote Democratic.
ALL teachers are excellent!
Just ask the NEA!
Give em all big fat raises!
Dontcha know that by paying the Same teachers More money, we’ll improve education for:
T H E C H I L D R E N ! ! !
Some so foolishly believe in teacher testing or academic achievement evaluations to ensure we identify and reward our best teachers, but they be wrong!
ALL teachers are excellent!
Just ask the NEA!
Give em all big fat raises!
Dontcha know that by paying the Same teachers More money, we’ll improve education for:
T H E C H I L D R E N ! ! !
Some so foolishly believe in teacher testing or academic achievement evaluations to ensure we identify and reward our best teachers, but they be wrong!
Creighton wrote: “In order for teaching to become a profession of prestige and respect in our society, we teachers need to be held accountable for the effectiveness of our teaching, in return for which we need to be rewarded with a respectable living wage commensurate with our performance.”
So now, we are being extorted?
If you look at it with an opposite point of view, Creighton is also saying that if you do not give us the pay that we want, we will teach badly.
Teaching is or was already that profession of prestige and respect in our society.
It used to be that people used to love the arts, now they want to grind it down to a corporate product with a number stamped on it.
Merit pay for teachers is a great idea, in a free market educational system. Open up the entire system to competition if you want real results.
Also, in a non-monopolized system the teachers could refuse to deal with troublesome students. It’s a needed component if you are going to start basing their pay on merit. You don’t want to punish a teacher solely because their given students don’t want to learn.
Let those who want to learn go to school. Let those who want to teach go to school. Let those in need to daycare for their teenager stay home and be the parents problem.
Merit pay DOES have problems, and conservatives need to admit as much.
Government agencies will ALWAYS have trouble rewarding effort and excellence.
One method that would work is a 100% tax credit for out of pocket teaching expenses.
The best teachers do spend lots of money, out of their own pockets, for their class rooms.
Tax credits would NOT be controlled by the teachers unions, the PTA, the local school board or the legislature.
Tax credits would also NOT be controlled by the school principal, who often has an agenda contrary to rewarding the “best and brightest”.
Nationwide average teacher pay: $46,752
Kansas $38,623
http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2005-06-25-teacher-salary-raise_x.htm
2006: Kansas
Starting: $28,530 Yearly: $39,175
http://dcjobsource.com/teachersalaries.html
This is salary alone. Not total compensation. Would like to find a source for total compensation.
I don’t think these numbers are adjusted for only working 9 months of the year either. Should add 1/4 back in?
AmWay why would you want to add back in??? Those are ANNUAL salary figures… paid over a 12 month period… Thats the way Teacher contracts are written…
And all of those figures you list are a LOT less than Fleetwood’s $1,000 per week upthread… Where Fleetwood gets that number is beyond me!!
“Where Fleetwood gets that number is beyond me!!”
Easy. 9 months X 4 weeks = 36 weeks
36 weeks X $1,000 per week = $36,000
Just some clarification. I followed up on a USD 259 salary scale link posted by Apophis a few months back. A 28-29 year old teacher with a bachelor’s and 7 years experience earns $43,139. That’s for 36 weeks teaching, which works out to $1200 per week. It is up to teachers to decide whether they want to find summer employment to earn more than $43,139 at age 28-29, including teaching summer school, or take an extended summer vacation.
But the larger reality is more noteworth: the great majority of Wichita families have two working parents. So, if a couple is comprised of husband-and-wife teachers, of age 28-29, they’re making $83,139, with a total of 15 weeks of annual vacation.
At age 32-33 with 10 years teaching experience, and master’s degrees, earned with easy-pace night-and summer study, they earn over $104,000 with 15 weeks annual vacation. That’s an UPPER middle class household income in this community, and it is earned for working only 70% of the year.
So…..freaking…..tired…. of the teachers only work 9 months out of the year crap. This is the argument of the uninformed. I just spent all weekend at school activities, and will spend three out of five nights this week doing the same. Over the summer I will have curriculum meetings, work in my class room, writing stuff for my ensembles. Inservices started early august last year, I had june and july “off”, although I spent most days at school. Sure not three months off.
I’m paid pretty well for a young professional, given the fact that the cost of living is low in Kansas. I’m not complaining about the pay, I just wish Fleetwood would stop is idiotic, uninformed statements.
“I just wish Fleetwood would stop is idiotic, uninformed statements.”
Uninformed? Methinks you exaggerate your extra time spent doing skool work.
WRONG Fleetie…. You got it figured WRONG!!!
The $36,000 per YEAR is paid MONTHLY… per YEAR!! Why do you have some idiotic mental block on something SO simple?? Teachers are paid for 12 months…. That is called a Contract… THEREFORE… Their paycheck at $36,000 per year is $3,000 per month… And THAT good sir, is $750 per week….
In other words, Divide the $36,000 by 52 weeks, instead of 36…. And, the School Year hasnt been 9 months in Kansas for YEARS!!! So even that argument is BOGUS!!
Usually in international tests the US looks not too good in scores. That last one I saw for math, science and literacy had Norway tops, followed by S.Korea, Canada and Japan. One reason for these results might be the respect still afforded teachers overseas prompting higher standards by the teacher unions themselves. I don’t think their kids got any more smarts.
“In order for teaching to become a profession of prestige and respect in our society, we teachers need to be held accountable for the effectiveness of our teaching, in return for which we need to be rewarded with a respectable living wage commensurate with our performance.”
Right.
Just like we do with medical doctors, national politicians, and CEO’s of large companies.
Hey, wait a minute, we don’t do that for those professions.
Snuffy Smith, slow down when you read, to understand what is being said.
Ms. Creighton wrote:
“In the six years I’ve prepared students for the AP English Language and Composition exam, I’ve brought in thousands of dollars in these happy kickbacks to my high school.”[ $30 per student passing score]
Creighton has been teaching AP English Language and Composition for 6 years, not Language Arts for 6 years. It’s almost invariably true that when districts have AP and IB programs they select experienced veterans to lead the classes. Check out how many East High IB or Northwest High AP English classes are taught by twentysomething year olds.
JB: I am the grandson, nephew, husband, father and brother of teachers so I know your frustrations very well. In addition to your post, the ability to mediate, repair, encourage, direct and relate to childerens problems goes unnoticed by critics. Not to mention the money to improve the classroom that comes out your own pocket. I’ve seem my family members go through the same critiques at social gatherings with folks who ought to know better.
fleetwood: I won’t act like I know how much you work if you don’t act like you know how much I work. Because you truly have no idea.
What a life. I devote my all to other people’s children then get called a liar on a blog. Wonderful.
jb — Just consider the source, and let it go… Fleetwood has been posting the same nonsense about teacher pay for months… same old stuff… every time teacher pay has a thread on the Blog… hang in there JB!!
So, Kansas teacher salaries rank 38th in the USA.
Guess what the Cost of Living in Kansas rank is in the USA?
42nd.
Teachers in Kansas then, should get their salaries DECREASED to the point of being ranked 42nd in the US.
http://ded.mo.gov/researchandplanning/indicators/cost_of_living/index.stm
http://blogs.kansas.com/weblog/2007/10/legislators-sho/
So, Kansas teacher salaries rank 38th in the USA.
Guess what the Cost of Living in Kansas rank is in the USA?
42nd.
Teachers in Kansas then, should get their salaries DECREASED to the point of being ranked 42nd in the US.
http://ded.mo.gov/researchandplanning/indicators/cost_of_living/index.stm
KS teacher pay ranks 38th.
http://blogs.kansas.com/weblog/2007/10/legislators-sho/
Do you live in Kansas or not “Max”?
You “Max” are a pretender at least and a mid management toady at best. Just what do you add to society? ANY teacher is more important than you.
JR,
CRY.
Now, doesn’t that feel better?
Max
Sit. Good boy.
Now stay. Staay..
Stay.
JR wants KS teachers to be the highest paid in the country.
Even though KS ranks 42nd in the country for Cost of Living.
Yeah, that makes Liberal sense.
A29 year old teacher who has worked for USD 259 since earning her bachelor’s at age 22, and who has no graduate credits, earns $43,129 (data kindly provided by Apophis). If we sum 36 weeks at school, plus 2 late summer weeks preparing for the upcoming year, and 25 hours of FTE professional development coursework, this generates 38.6 FTE weeks of work and $1117 per week of work (plus healthcare benefits). This is the appropriate accounting method for comparing a teacher’s salary to most full-time employees’ (in their late twenties) having 50 weeks-of-work salaries.
Teachers’ salary payouts are made over 52 weeks. So this teacher would get $829 per week. This doesn’t look like much. But it is paid during an 11-week period in which no work is done. Zero, zip, nada. What jobs other than teaching have a pre-planned annual 11-week “layoff”?
It’s a double-edged sword. You make decent money for the weeks you work. You have the best time of the year off, with no boss telling you what to do. But if you want to make decent money during this period, rather than kick back, there aren’t great options. You can make some money teaching summer day and evening classes. Maybe help review and edit some textbooks and other published education materials. Otherwise, most opportunities are in the sub-$10/hr range, not because teachers are dumb, but because well-paying employers want people to work longer than 11 weeks.
Perhaps we should have schools teaching classes 48 weeks a year. Then teachers’ salaries could be set and understood in the context of regular-job salaries.
By age 33, with a master’s degree having been completed through evening and summer coursework, the USD 259 teacher is paid $52,121. Most teachers of this age are married, and are women, whose college-educated husbands earn decent incomes. (If they earn less than this, then we need to shift the topic to the underpayment of non-teaching college graduates.) So, we’re looking at circa $100,000 two-parents-working family incomes. That’s within the top 10% of Wichita household incomes, and for most dual-income families that money is earned by two people each working 49-50 weeks per year. Actually, for 33 year old couples, it’s probably in the top 5% bracket for Wichita.
There’s another double edged sword here: the salary scale tops out at 11 years, being raised only intermittently, i.e. at collective-bargaining time, for cost-of-living increases. Younger teachers get $900 automatic yearly increases, plus sur-payments for earning higher degrees, and are paid well for their ages, but older teachers “top out”. Which encourages talented mid-career teachers to switch to administration, to break through the glass income ceiling. Maybe this needs to be changed.
Ms. Creighton mentioned teaching AP English Language and Composition and her school’s receiving $30 per student payments for their passing AP exam scores, for 6 years. AP classes are almost invariably assigned to outstanding veteran teachers. It’s unlikely she has less than 15 years experience. If I had a choice to pay an AP teacher more than a regular teacher, or else see her move to administration, I’d pay to keep her in the classroom. AP classes aren’t easy to teach. The kids are smart and hard-working for sure. But you have to challenge them, at their level of ability, which is hard work. You have to read a lot more than the students to deeply understand the material, and guide the students. You have to carefully scrutinize and digest students’ multi-page papers. You’re not looking for trivial grammar errors to red-pen, but students’ demonstrating an understanding of difficult literature, and coherent chains of idea presentations from starting propositions to final conclusions 4-5 pages later. You often have students do re-writes, which you have to read and grade. Anyone who thinks teaching this is easy is wrong.
I’ve seen some students’ AP English papers. It’s really impressive work. Teachers who can get students to do this high-level writing deserve bonus merit pay. It’s a special talent that’s worth paying extra to land.
This thread isn’t it worth my effort.
I’ll leave it at that.
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Eric…
Great post. I have added you to my digg bookmark…