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Global Selloff Spreads to Wall Street, Futures Plunge
New York — Wall Street is facing what could be one of the ugliest trading days since Sept.11 after global markets went into a selling panic this week.
Stock markets from Bombay to London to Sao Paulo plummeted Monday and Tuesday on concerns that a U.S.-led recession is all but inevitable and would curtail any global economy growth.
The Dow Jones Industrial Average Futures dropped 453 points, or 3.74%, to 11653 as of 6:45 a.m. EST in New York. The broader Standard & Poor’s 500 Index futures fell 54.4 points, or 4.1%, to 1270.50 and the Nasdaq 100 Futures lost 69.25 points, or 3.74%, to 1780.25. Futures are well above their session lows.
Fox Business News
Good thing you’ve been doing this since 1980 and know how to do it. Me, I’m not buying into the gambling crap anymore.
Did you read it?
Sort of a dawn-of-civilization “happy face,” it was all the rage 6,000 years ago. Ancient Turks loved it. Tibetans wove it into their baskets and blankets. Navajos painted it in the sand and on their pottery. Norsemen engraved on those funny helmets they wore, the ones with the Hagar the Horrible horns. It’s seen on the walls of prehistoric caves as a stylized representation of the bountiful sun. Sanskrit gave it a name, a combination of “su,” or good, and “asti,” to be; in other words, it means “well-being.”
Then Adolph Hitler came along, adopted the hooked cross (Hakencreuz) as a symbol of Arian purity or a cog in the machine that was to be a thousand year Reich, whatever, the point is: Hitler came along and ruined the swastika for all of us. Wear it now, or tattoo it on your forehead as Charlie Manson did, and most people will figure out you’re pretty much of a kook. No “bountiful sun.” No “well-being.” Kook, pure and simple. Not to mention: loser.
Which brings me to the Confederate flag.
A lot of people served with honorable intentions under that flag, including some of my ancestors. There was a story rolling around family reunions when I was a kid about a couple of great-great-uncles who discovered they fought against, and under, Old Glory and the Confederate battle flag against each other. There’s more evidence of a great-great-something who spent the years between 1861 and 1865 signing up with the Rebels at various encampments, then deserting when the battles got close. I suppose he had great war stories to tell, albeit second-hand.
There’s no indication at all in my genealogy that anyone in my family tree benefited directly from the “peculiar institution” of slavery. Nevertheless, when the time came to fight for farm and family, some of them took up arms, some of them bravely. Some of them under the stars and bars of the Confederate battle flag.
Then along came people like Edgar Ray Killen and ruined it for all. He ruined it for Robert E. Lee, who turned his back against the United States of America to fight for the Old Dominion of his native Virginia. Killen and his Ku Klux Klan adopted and distorted the stars and bars into a symbol of racist hatred.
The Confederate flag, if it ever did, no longer represents anything noble or quaint or honorable. Fly it, display it, wear it, salute it, worship it all you want — it’s your 1st Amendment right — but it brands you as a bigot. Justify, rationalize, cite history or tradition if you can, but hard as you try, the racists have co-opted that symbol for you and ruined it. And its representation brands you as a kook, simple, and a loser.
Yeah I read it. Personally, I think there is going to be some rough going for the next year. Best to keep those long term investments close to your vest and ride out the storm.
Whoever gets the nomination is in my opinion, going to have economy issues whipping around their head like a swarm of bees.
Europe is going to do more than blink their eyes on this one as well.
“In the 1990s, I moved my investments out of the U.S. into Canada because ears close to the ground warned about the dot.com bust. They were right and I saved a bundled.” {Posted by Regular}
==========================
All of the arm-flailing about the evils of a Socialist Economy, and what do we find?? REGULAR moved his investments out of the Good Ol’ USA Capitalist Economy, into the Socialist economy of Canada??? Wow, what hypocrisy!!
Guess you can keep your investments safe, eh, Regular??? Wouldnt want them to get hurt in the USA meltdown, eh??
Dont you realize the Government “Eves Drops” and “Insder Trades” with stolen tax money for “Personal Agendas”? They steal and pay back at their convienience and profit. Insider Sheriff sales, foreclosers, Investments, etc:.. This is why they become Politicians. Too “Rape, Steal and feel all Powerful and Mighty”. How much power can a looser posses? If it is stolen money and stolen lives, they have alot of power. If it is human dignity and compassion, they are the weakest every born!!!! Herbert West III, Publisher/Journalist west.herb@yahoo.com
Gee, I wonder what good ol’ Max might think about moving investments into that evil socialist Canadian system?? Hmmmmm???
Welcome to the great depression version 2.008. Dow futures off 506 points.
Will be interesting listening to the spin going forward.
Chas.
Posted January 22, 2008 at 7:10 am | Permalink
“In the 1990s, I moved my investments out of the U.S. into Canada because ears close to the ground warned about the dot.com bust. They were right and I saved a bundled.” {Posted by Regular}
==========================
All of the arm-flailing about the evils of a Socialist Economy, and what do we find?? REGULAR moved his investments out of the Good Ol’ USA Capitalist Economy, into the Socialist economy of Canada??? Wow, what hypocrisy!!
Guess you can keep your investments safe, eh, Regular??? Wouldnt want them to get hurt in the USA meltdown, eh??
#
Regular
Posted January 22, 2008 at 7:08 am | Permalink
#
sugar
Posted January 22, 2008 at 7:04 am | Permalink
“In the 1990s, I moved my investments out of the U.S. into Canada because ears close to the ground warned about the dot.com bust. They were right and I saved a bundled.” {Posted by Regular}
==========================
All of the arm-flailing about the evils of a Socialist Economy, and what do we find?? REGULAR moved his investments out of the Good Ol’ USA Capitalist Economy, into the Socialist economy of Canada??? Wow, what hypocrisy!!
———————————
my answer to sugar and Chas (both the same ya know)
No, Canada would be a Socialist Government, not a Socialist Economy. They are very much Capitalists. :)
BUSTED!!!
Herb — Please take this in the “good intention” that it is meant to be: I do hope your grammar, and punctuation, and spelling is a LOT better in your “publications” than it is in your Blog posts.
Please take that as a simple, honest critique??
Busted?? You mean I cant take something from another thread, and post it here?? To show where your investment loyalties REALLY are Regular?? Hey, sugar found a good one!! I just thought it belonged on this thread this morning!! Sorry bout that… But you all keep saying how Canada is a Socialist Economy, and how their Socialized medicine is so horrible… NOW you say they are a socialist government?? Sorry, dude, they are about as much of a representative republic as WE are here!!
Try again to spin your “foreign investment” program!!
Chas…
DNFTT
:D
Hey, in light of all the market crashes yesterday, I hope your foreign investments work out for you!! You probably did the right thing back in the 90’s… Amazing, eh??
Ain’t it the truth, “Chas.”?!
Part of understanding the corporate economy is to realize outfits such as General Motors aren’t really American, per se. GM closed factories in Michigan and kept their Canadian plants open, largely because the corporation does better building products in nations with univeral healthcare.
Halliburton sucks at the US government teat but becomes a Dubai corporation to avoid paying its due taxes in America. The largest “corporate park” in the world (dollar-wise, anyway) is a mail drop in the Grand Cayman Islands.
Thanks to the Republic Party, every American owes huge amounts of money to the dreaded “Red” Chinese.
Funny thing about the Chinese. We’ve been a country for two-hundred years and change. The Chinese have been in business for ten thousand years. They’ve played on Republic Party greed (think Nixon and George Herbert Walker Bush and Shrub…) and are laughing all the way to the bank.
You Bet, Monkey… and when Regular has nothing to offer in response, he keeps up his stupid spin about trying to make me into some other poster!! LOL What a joke!! And I am not even criticizing his foreign investment… just poking some holes in the hypocrisy of his anti-socialist rhetoric!! LOL :roll:
The Year of the Rat Celebration Starts Today
The Rat(?)was welcomed in ancient times as a protector and bringer of material prosperity. It is an animal associated with aggression, wealth, charm, and order, yet also associated with death, war, the occult, pestilence, and atrocities. In the Chinese Zodiac, the Year of the Rat is associated with the earthly branch symbol ?(wikpedia)
It’s the Earth Rat year – whatever that means. :)
I believe I read something the other day about how the Republican candidates were attacking each other, and according to the poster, the dems were “cooperating and on message” or something like that–another attempt to portray the Democrats as somehow the superior group.
Anyone catch the debates last night? The Democratic sniping, attacking and low blows? so much for the “cooperation and on message” brotherly love line…
There are some young people in my parish, who are going to be involved in a livestock show this weekend. It is always hard on them, after they spend 9 – 12 months raising an animal, and being very involved with that animal, even bonding with that animal, when it comes down to show time, they are faced with the reality that when its all over, that critter they have spent all that time and energy on, will ultimately be sold, slaughtered, and eaten!!
They always seem to experience a significant amount of grief after a stock show. Dealing with that kind of grieving is something they dont teach in the Seminaries. But, it’s something that must be dealt with. This is going to be a long week.
See you all later!!
Unnamed farm animals tend to taste better and go down easier Chas. :cool:
Are we ready to see if poverty causes crime? We are about to test that notion here in the next 6 months or so.
That’s just plain crass and rude, James!! Grow up!!
:-=):
:+:-):
Why, among other reasons, there won’t be an Obama/Hillary ticket.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/opinions/cartoonsandvideos/telnaes/telnaes01162008.html
Caption this photo:
Oooh, he’s smells like beer.
He’s one of those guys your never supposed to take candy from
Are you the guy who didn’t fight but sent my daddy to war?
As the US economy goes, so goes Canadas. You sneeze, we get pneumonia. The stock/futures exhanges are bruised just as badly as Wall St., with the exception of minerals and enery sectors which continue to prop up the Canadian economy. Canada does have more pronounced social/European attitude when it comes to health, welfare and education granted, but that is a side issue as to why the province of Ontario is now the largest producer of vehicles in North Amernica, including Michigan. The cause for auto production growth was the very low Canadian dollar which as it rises, we find the big 3 pulling back on projected expansions. We’re all in the same boat, and I’d love to know what stocks permalink bought……..please?
My man Obama could so kick your ass.
Do you even know who Martin Luther King was, White Boy?
FROM THE LIGHTER SIDE
While walking down the street one day a US senator is tragically hit by a truck and dies. His soul arrives in heaven and is met by St. Peter at the entrance.
‘Welcome to heaven,’ says St. Peter. ‘Before you settle in, it seems there is a problem. We seldom see a high official around these parts, you see, so we’re not sure what to do with you.’
‘No problem, just let me in,’ says the man.
‘Well, I’d like to, but I have orders from higher up. What we’ll do is have you spend one day in hell and one in heaven. Then you can choose where to spend eternity.’
‘Really, I’ve made up my mind. I want to be in heaven,’ says the senator.
‘I’m sorry, but we have our rules.’
And with that, St. Peter escorts him to the elevator and he goes down, down, down to hell. The doors open and he finds himself in the middle of a green golf course. In the distance is a clubhouse and standing in front of it are all his friends and other politicians who had worked with him.
Everyone is very happy and in evening dress. They run to greet him, shake his hand, and reminisce about the good times they had while getting rich at the expense of the people.
They play a friendly game of golf and then dine on lobster, caviar and champagne.
Also present is the devil, who really is a very friendly guy who has a good time dancing and telling jokes. They are having such a good time that before he realizes it, it is time to go.
Everyone gives him a hearty farewell and waves while the elevator rises…
The elevator goes up, up, up and the door reopens on heaven where St Peter is waiting for him.
‘Now it’s time to visit heaven.’
So, 24 hours pass with the senator joining a group of contented souls moving from cloud to cloud, playing the harp and singing. They have a good time and, before he realizes it, the 24 hours have gone by and St. Peter returns.
‘Well, then, you’ve spent a day in hell and another in heaven. Now choose your eternity.’
The senator reflects for a minute, then he answers, ‘Well, I would never have said it before. I mean heaven has been delightful, but I think I would be better off in hell.’
So St. Peter escorts him to the elevator and he goes down, down, down to hell.
Now the doors of the elevator open and he’s in the middle of a barren land covered with waste and garbage.
He sees all his friends, dressed in rags, picking up the trash and putting it in black bags as more trash falls from above.
The devil comes over to him and puts his arm around his shoulder. ‘I don’t understand,’ stammers the senator. ‘Yesterday I was here and there was a golf course and clubhouse, and we ate lobster and caviar, drank champagne, and danced and had a great time. Now there’s just a waste land full of garbage and my friends look miserable. What happened?’
The devil looks at him, smiles and says ‘Yesterday we were campaigning… Today you voted.
:-)
What happened to the Democrat unity-fest? Man, Hillary and Obama had the claws sharpened for the debate last night! And Obama is taking on Bill on the side.
It lasted about as long as I thought it would.
Dow is already down 341 pts. Doesnt look good so far!!
Stocks down?
Two words: Buying opportunity!
Stocks down??
Remember Ross Perot: “That great sucking sound”
Stocks down?
Remember an old Hymn: “Yield Not to Temptation!”
Absolutely GMC. Time to put that cash to work.
GMC–
Heh, good one. That’s what brokers always say to try to mitigate the pain.
The fact is that under Worst. President. Ever. the Dow is lower today seven years after he took office than it was on January 20, 2001.
Mein Gott in Himmel, this man truly is
But thank heavens, HALLIBURTON is doing so well!
Hilarious!!
Much more than the Dow is lower than it was seven years ago before bushco. This idiot in charge has gone to new depths in running our country into the ground.
Buy up, you JP Morgan’s, you. Then you’ll have even more useless stock to sit on! How many Stocksters jumped from their high-rise, plush offices in 1929?
Halliburton sucks at the US government teat but becomes a Dubai corporation to avoid paying its due taxes in America. The largest “corporate park” in the world (dollar-wise, anyway) is a mail drop in the Grand Cayman Islands.
You ever stop to think they are tired of carrying 90% of the tax burden? But yeah, keep taxing them and they’ll keep leaving.
My Grandfather kept a herd of Black Angus, he gave me one as a calf and I named her Cindy after a girl I had a crush on. Than one day Grandpa called to tell me that Cindy had gotten spooked by something and had ran into the Barbed wire fence and was so badly hurt. That he had no choice but to put her down.
OMG that was the best tasting ground beef and steaks I have ever tasted! Yes she was a wonderful cow and she will always be a part of me!
Dog,
Did you still have your crush?
Sol–
Because of course gov’t should place no conditions who get rich off of the American taxpayer, right?
Corporations exist because of laws and regulations passed by government. Obviously, government can require whatever it wants from the companies that do business with it and even companies that do business in the US.
Those Benedict Arnold companies that sell out like Halliburton does should be repaid with zero contracts and new regulations.
They want to operate in the richest economy in the world, then let them pay the price to do so.
My family raised ANGUS AND ONLY ANGUS! Tasty beef.
On another note, I’d buy some silver and gold with your little rebate checks.
Have you seen the way it’s climbing? But then again, I’m no money-man.
Dog,
Did you still have your crush?
LOL as you might guess I do have fond memories of Cindy, I just can not recall what the girl looked like.
AS for the cow, I remember her as Black, kind of cute in a calf way and tasting very good with steak sauce or on a bun. I really don’t know what the girl might have tasted like? I hear Chicken!
Because of course gov’t should place no conditions who get rich off of the American taxpayer, right?
Just how the hell do you think we got that way. Huh, could it be maaaaybe ffom BUSINESS? But by God we better tax them into the ground. Better make sure they don’t earn a buck. Man you need to live in a communist country. That is EXACTLY how you think.
Is this like seriously annoying anyone? Let me know and I’ll drop the background thing.
rd7.gif alt='smilie shoot' />
Capn, we have the highest corporate taxes in the world by far, companies that do business in this country pay half you SS and Medicare, they also pay for your unemployment benefits. Some companies pay 1/2 your insurance, some pay for Pensions some pay for Pensions and some 401K accounts, some companys give 4 to 6 weeks of vacation time. and I won’t go into all the money my company gives away in scholarships. so I don’t what the hell your talking about.
The background is okay, Mr. Dev VB, but the little tiny print has to go – some of us are old and the eyesight ain’t what it used to be.
Canada to rewrite ‘torture’ manual
The document singled out Guantanamo Bay as a place where inmates could face torture [AP]
Amnesty International has criticised a decision by Canada to rewrite a training manual that put the US and Israel on a list of nations where prisoners risk being tortured.
The document, released on Friday, named the US, Israel, Afghanistan, China, Egypt, Iran, Saudi Arabia, Mexico and Syria as places where torture was used.
It had classified some interrogation methods used by the US as torture, including isolation, sleep deprivation and blindfolding, according to an official document obtained by Reuters news agency.
The decision to redraft the manual used by Canadian diplomats came after the US objected.
Alex Neve, secretary general of Amnesty International, said: “It was commendable to see that manual, which seemed to include an important section that was an objective assessment of human rights concerns around the world.
“To see that now be undermined by concerns about embarrassing allies is very disappointing.”
US objection
In a statement issued on Saturday, Maxime Bernier, Canada’s Foreign Affairs Minister, said that he was embarrassed by the public disclosure of the manual that “wrongly” includes some of Canada’s closest allies.
“I regret the embarrassment caused by the public disclosure of the manual used in the department’s torture awareness training,” Bernier said.
“It contains a list that wrongly includes some of our closest allies. I have directed that the manual be reviewed and rewritten. The manual is neither a policy document nor a statement of policy. As such, it does not convey the government’s views or positions,” the statement added.
Foreign Affairs spokeswoman Marina Wilson said on Saturday that she could not say yet how long it would take to review the manual or what the process might involve.
Sharp response
The document had prompted a sharp response from the US, a key NATO ally and trading partner, which asked to be removed from the manual.
“We find it to be offensive for us to be on the same list with countries like Iran and China. Quite frankly it’s absurd,” David Wilkins, the US Ambassador told The Associated Press on Friday.
“For us to be on a list like that is just ridiculous.”
He said the US does not authorise or condone torture. “We think it should be removed and we’ve made that request. We have voiced our opinion very forcefully,” Wilkins said.
A Canadian citizen, 21-year-old Omar Khadr, is in custody at Guantanamo on charges that include killing a US medic with a grenade during a July 2002 firefight in Afghanistan.
He has claimed in the past that he has been abused, but Canadian foreign affairs officials have said they accept US assurances Khadr has been treated humanely.
Human rights groups believe Canada has not done enough to ensure Khadr, who has been in custody since he was 15, is being fairly treated.
Alleged abuse
The workshop manual, which was used in the foreign affairs department’s torture awareness training, was produced about two years ago while Canada’s justice Dennis O’Connor was investigating the case of Maher Arar.
Arar, a Syrian-born Canadian engineer, was imprisoned and tortured in Syria for almost a year after he was detained and sent there by US authorities in 2002, wrongfully accused of having terrorist ties.
A Canadian judicial inquiry, led by O’Connor, later cleared him.
The government inadvertently released the manual to lawyers for Amnesty International who are working on a lawsuit involving alleged abuse of Afghan detainees by local Afghan authorities, after the detainees were handed over by Canadian troops.
The document offers a section on laws prohibiting torture and what diplomats should do when cases are suspected.
Hold Ctrl key and + on number pad to make text larger (minus) – to make it smaller.
or
use the scroll wheel.
BTW has anyone else heard that Paul Wolfowitz is back in the Bush administration? He is an advisor to Condi Rice now, you would think after the outcome from his last “advise” they would want to keep him far away!
Regular
Posted January 22, 2008 at 7:41 am | Permalink
Unnamed farm animals tend to taste better and go down easier Chas.
—————————————————-
I disagree Regular.
Naming them makes it so much easier at the supper table.
Please pass the Wilbur!
Hey, Bessie tastes great!
Seriously Chas, why isn’t this a great opportunity to teach the kids the biblical lessons of sacrifice and how saying “grace” is honoring the gift of the sacrifice and thanking God for feeding us?
Farm kids grow up with this lesson. Too many city folk nowadays.
Heard a nasty rumor that Bush is attaching verbiage to make his tax cuts permanent to the current legislation for the tax rebate to stimulate the economy. Pretty slick rouse. If the dems block it, they look like they don’t care about the lower income folks. Has anyone seen a model for this package? How much is it going to cost, what is the expected ROI, what is the plan to recover the cost of this program, and how much impact will this have on the economy?
One view of the situation world wide by a writer for the Economist, which was written and posted prior to the Fed announcement this morning. From what I gather, the opinion of the author is that the market problem is worldwide in potential, and this may be a “bear market” for some time.
http://www.economist.com/daily/news/displaystory.cfm?story_id=10555699&top_story=1
Max, that’s the general idea, but still, many kids go through some serious grieving processes when it comes time to show/sell their critters!!
VT, what worries me is that our market impacts so many other markets. With –no one at the helm- trying to get the economy back on track long term, I fear that other countries will separate themselves from the dollar. What happens to our economy if oil is no longer anchored to the dollar but rather to the Euro?
It’s amazing how many people by those pretty-colored sanitary plastic wrapped packages of meat in the stores and have no clue how they got there.
There’s no sense of reality anymore for kids who grow up playing with electronic toys all day and get indoctrinated in public schools with ideals of fantasy.
Fat, dumb, and happy we be, the end-stage in the life cycle of civilizations.
Never thought I’d be glad to see the dow down only 150! Bush the master of diminished expectations! The govt. is now in the position of keeping the floodgates of liquidity wide open, and leave their mess to the next admin.
Sort of like when the Repub. congress left all their budget work for the past yr. to the new congress. Same pattern is played out in corporate america every day, guy’s leaving, leaves his work in shambles to the new guy coming in.
WWIII, when China decides to call our rediculous war loans since we stop buying Wal-Mart’s Chinese-slave labored goods because the dollar doesn’t buy too much any longer. Or maybe the rest of the world decides they don’t want the dollar and switch to the Euro to buy oil. That’s why we HATE!!! Venezuela, Iran and North Korea. Saddam threatened to go to the Euro, see where that got him? hmm.
Ne’ermind, that’ll never happen, it’s the crazy in me again. And anyway, the market is going back up.
After all the tax cut ’stimulus’ applied to corporations under bush, there still wasn’t a slowing down on the globalization of american jobs. No great boon in capital expenditures when their money could be “re-patriated” for pennies on the dollar.
All of bush corporate tax give aways should die on the vine, if it means congress can’t pass a true stimulus tax cut, the public will know who the obstructionist are.
Hate to rain on your parade, Capn, especially knowing how much you jump in glee at others’ misery, but the DOW is NOT lower than when GW took office. It was 11,400 in December 1999, (currently 11,949)the month before he took office. It went up briefly, then fluctuated for several months, until Sept 17, the first day open after the WTC attacks, and it fell
684.81 to close at 8,920.70, largest dollar loss in history, down 7.13%.
I can imagine your jumping for joy over that one, as well…more “proof” to claim how horrible the President as well as our entire system of capitalism is. You delight in showing all the frailities and problems of our country. You dance with joy over the misery of others, with your ‘logic’ that every ill in the world is proof that this country is trash. We might as well just nuke the whole US…would THAT make you happy???
Come to think of it, Capn, I would think you would be THRILLED to see the stock market going down. Makes all those “evil corporations” suffer. Ignoring, of course, the stockholders and average people who’s 401k’s and life savings are affected. As long as the evil corporations and capitalism is being hurt, I would think you would be doing one of your dances for joy.
“but the DOW is NOT lower than when GW took office. It was 11,400 in December 1999, (currently 11,949)the month before he took office. It went up briefly, then fluctuated for several months,”
Taz,
adjusted for inflation it is lower.
Uh, Taz, by your math, Bush took office in January of 2000, when in the real world, it was January 2001.
“Taz” –
Some required reading for you, at:
http://www.alternet.org/workplace/74262?page=entire
All you Cons should read it. But it’s kinda long. Hope your lips don’t get tired.
My error in dates. My larger point is that the president does not have a magic button to push to “improve economy” or “destroy economy”. Does anyone blame Jimmy Carter personally for the 18 percent (and higher) home mortgages in the 1980’s? Anyone remember Reagan’s reelection campaign question, are you better off now than you were 4 years ago?
Fact is, there are thousands of components of an economy, and trying to blame or credit one person for an economic development is overly simplistic–regardless of how many extreme left wing links are posted–along with the personal insults about moving lips while reading. That is a pretty childish insult, by the way. Surely you can be more clever than that.
Monkeyhawk,
the guy is a politiical novelist.
As a matter of fact:
“From now on, depressions will be scientifically created.” — Congressman Charles A.
Lindbergh Sr. , 1913
He said this after the signing of the “Federal Reserve Act”.
So there is a “magic button” of sorts.
“Sort of like when the Repub. congress left all their budget work for the past yr. to the new congress.”
Hey Monkey, you may want to rephrase the above: “Sorta like the NEW Democrat congress which did NOT pass all the appropriation bills in 2008.”
Truth be known your democrats did NOT pass the appropriation bills by Sept (new fiscal year began Oct), and in fact, were so lazy that they rolled up a bunch of the REMAINING bills and finally passed them UNread 28 December in one huge Omnibus Bill. Which included over 11,000 earmarks (pork anyone?) of 20 billion dollars.
“Has anyone seen a model for this package? How much is it going to cost, what is the expected ROI, what is the plan to recover the cost?”
SolDevB, of course you know the cost of the program proposed (it’s on a dozen websites). I have to laugh when you post ROI. There is no return on investment when government gives money away. What is the gain, interest, or profit – and for whom? Not the traditional use of the phrase.
The FREE MONEY cost $150 billion (or whatever 1% of the GDP.
So inorder to shore up faith and confidence lost because the US is living in debt and now banks and mortgage companies are broke and borrowing money from rich arab nations – we print up some more money and hand it out.
When you print up FREE MONEY and hand it out, you drive up inflationary pressures and beyond a doubt instantly increase the national debt (watch the debt clock spin!).
So do you give that FREE MONEY out to people who make between $75-110K, and hope they don’t invest it, or use it to pay off their average 7,000 credit card debt? Or do you give that FREE MONEY to the 50 million Americans who do not pay taxes, because these “poor” people will certainly spend every bit of FREE MONEY they get, which will hopefully increase consumer spending, which “might” restore consumer confidence (regardless of the national debt increase or inflation)? Nevermind this is a straight redistribution of wealth – taking from the tax payers and giving it to those who do not.
Sounds like a nice lose/lose situation to me, in the long run.
FREE MONEY??? You mean money the government wants to give out, and then make you claim as Income on your tax return NEXT year?? REAL free money, huh??? No thanks!!
American Way, I think the action by the Fed this morning and the proposed stimulus plan will prove, in the long run, to be not good things. As posted in earlier days, it seems to me that the net effect of all this will be increased inflation, with little to no “growth”. Regardless of how the $150 Billion stimulus is done, whether invested and not spent or spent on ever more expensive “necessities”, I fear inflation at a higher level or worse, a period of “stagflation”, either of which is not good.
Looking at the latest reading of the DJIA, I’m guessing there is some holdback in the market, based upon the Fed making a further cut in the rate cut today at its January meeting next week. This will, IMHO, pour additional accelerant on the inflationary fire.
“BG” posted –
“Monkeyhawk, the guy is a politiical novelist.”
Thank you, “BG” for your thoughtful, in-depth analysis.
Fred Thompson has quit the race.
Talk about your fizzle. HE was supposed to be their great hope!
Turned out he was a big flop.
AmWay, a tax rebate is not free money. As you stated this is coming from tax revenues collected by the government. They are not printing extra money. At least that has not been discussed as of yet. The return on investment. The government is about to spend ~$150 billion. They are investing it in an attempt to spur the economy. What return is projected from this investment? i.e. ROI. Is there a model predicting how much this will cost the government long term – not just the ~$150 million but the cost in lost revenue and replacing it with..??.. How does the government plan to replace the ~$150 billion? They are pretty fair questions. As a Ron Paul supporter, I am pretty up to speed on the travesty of the fed. Thanx for the cliff’s notes version though. Google Ron Paul, he can explain it a lot better.
You know, I’m wondering the same thing Obama is wondering. It reminded me of went Bill Clinton was in office, and his UN-elected wife tried to introduce health care reform. The spouse of a president should hold zero power and is not a constitutional office holder?
You talked about Ronald Reagan being a transformative political leader.
I did not mention his name,” Clinton said in one exchange over whether
Obama had complimented the former Republican president.
“Your husband did,” Obama said, to which Clinton responded, “Well, I’m
here. He’s not.”
“OK. Well, I can’t tell who I’m running against sometimes,” Obama
replied. CNN
No thanx Sol. I’ve been to your link to Paul back one of the thousand other times you’ve posted it.
Thank-you.
Look up ROI. You may mean in a general term, what is the return (meaning benefit). But there is no economic ROI. The printing press just rolls out more. This is not “investing”.
The cost is forever. There is admittedly by both parties – no revenue source. The 150B is added immediately to the national debt. The interest payments on the national debt are huge, and the rate is available if you’d like to research it.
In other words: It is sunk money.
No one is claiming otherwise.
Sol, I forgot:
There is no plan. To replace it.
It’s everything your questions are intended to lead to.
Sorry, you didn’t really want an answer. Just wanted to make bloggers think.
MH,
sorry man, but when someone posts a link to a left wing novalist about economics, I tend to be a little shocked, but hey I don’t read newspaper columnist articles about economics either unless there is an economist stating fact.
In finance, rate of return (ROR) or return on investment (ROI), or sometimes just return, is the ratio of money gained or lost on an investment relative to the amount of money invested. The amount of money gained or lost may be referred to as interest, profit/loss, gain/loss, or net income/loss. The money invested may be referred to as the asset, capital, principal, or the cost basis of the investment.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Return_on_investment
Investment : The government invests (gives to citizens) ~$150 billion. Return: The government recoups (hopefully) the investment plus (hopefully) a gain by the economy picking up. The more people spend, the more tax is collected. Return on investment.
My real question is has anyone done any math on this to predict if it is worth the effort. The ~$150 billion goes into the deficit and begins taking on interest. We have to pay for that at some point and it isn’t cheap. At this great expense, has anyone looked at what it will do for the economy? Will it help? If so, will it help in time and will it be enough to even make a change? This is so short termed and short sighted, is it even worth it?
“BG” (in real Lincoln/Douglas form) debates –
“…when someone posts a link to a left wing novalist (sic) about economics, I tend to be a little shocked….”
“Hooked on Phonics” is not your friend.
Face it, “BG,” if you read the link, you’d have nothing to refut. Far better to attack the source than approach the facts that belie your prejudiced partisanship.
Sol, going out on a small limb here. It appears that there have been a number of economists and others employed by brokerage firms who have given the math a whirl, and find the answer wanting.
Then why the hell are we doing it.
By the way, why te hell are we selling weapons to freakin Saudi Arabia? WTF let’s get real. These are the a-holes that flew into the towers. We still remember that right? Why the hell ar we arming them?
Sorry SOL. I do ROI’s for a living. You can go to Wikipedia all day and not get it.
There is no ROI. There is no investor and there is no one to take a profit. Unless you mean the business portion of this which Bush proposes to help small businessmen. Our government does not
“invest”. Government takes.
And it is FREE MONEY!!!
Just like the libs FREE MONEY for Hillary’s
Retirement Savings Plan = 25 Billion (which Bush proposed and was just awful to libs)
$5000 Baby bonds for every baby = 20 Billion a year
Free healthcare! = 110 Billion dollars
Obama’s 90 billion dollars for Social Security supplements and rebates.
It’s all FREE MONEY. Libs just go back to where the money tree grows and take down and handful and off to the show we go!
And Bush is playing the game too!
There is no responsibility.
There is affect on our grandchildren.
There is no impact on the economy.
Conservatives LOVE earmarks for their districts just as much as libs.
It’a allllll a fairy tale.
Former Sen. Fred Thompson on Tuesday ended his run for the presidency. CNN
Great! I missed him on the television show. Law and Order just isn’t the same without him swirling his scotch and being the boss.
Sol,
There was quite a bit of discussion on this yesterday. I offered to refuse my $1600 check.
I don’t need it. I don’t want it. And it will show
up on NEXT years 1040.
Budget buster personally and nationally.
Who put the sand and the salt down on the road last night so I could get home from work at 8 p.m., AmWay?
To me, that was an essential service.
It’s not “free money.”
By using a little bit of money from all local taxpayers, the government made the local economy work during an ice storm that otherwise would have shut us down or caused horrendous accidents costing society far more to remediate.
We need government. Not for everything and not all the time. But for many essential services like protecting food and water, disaster relief and management, protecting from invasion, no alternative to gov’t is practical.
American Way, it will only show up on next year’s 1040 (as a reduction in refund/increase in income taxes) if the prior model is followed. If, however, the elimination of the 10% bracket is done as was proposed, thereby elevating the income floor upon which income tax is imposed, even temporarily, there would not be such a recapture event.
Regardless of how it is done, I still think it’s a bad idea.
Sweet, NATO want to nuke first.
Let’s get on with it then.
Whatchu talkin Pleefer?
Far better to attack the source than approach the facts that belie (believe) your prejudiced partisanship.
Hey MH, Diddo,
read the article, read like a conspiracy theory.
Of course it’s FREE MONEY Capn! You want everything as “essential”. So you must believe in FREE MONEY.
Because even if you took every dollar of earnings from the top 5% of wage earners – you would not possibly have enough money to fund all the campaign promises being made.
And you certainly refuse to consider anyone else paying the bills.
The expectation on government to be ALL THINGS to ALL PEOPLE. From each according to his ability, to each according to his need –
has busted America.
And conservatives are responsible too!
If you don’t believe it, note how the nations with the highest standard of living also have high rates of taxation and big government.
Norway, Japan, Sweden, Germany, Switzerland . . . yup.
Somalia, Yemen, and Uzbekistan, low taxes, low standard of living.
AmWay–
You are nucking futs.
CapnAmerica,
I am curious to see where you are getting your tax information on those countries from and what your evaluation is of big government.
Or are you just pulling things out of thin air?
Exactly VT. Yesterday, I posted the formula first proposed – which included the 10K exemption limit change.
I don’t WANT or NEED it to show up in my AGI, and I have other tax considerations. For instance, Savings Bond interest is non-taxable if used for educational expenses (bonds purchased after 1990 in owners name), but this deduction phases out with income over 90K. (Not my case, but it’s an example of phases out of breaks (Like Roth IRA income over 150K/join).Additionally, I have not seen the details/applicability of the AMT change this year, as I was close last year.
I plan ahead, and do not normally get refunds. I like owing just enough to avoid qtrly payments/penalty for under withholding. I like MY MONEY when I earn it, so I can invest it, and not let the government have it all year.
So I know it will show up, depending upon the final product signed off on by Pelosi and crew.
I agree completely – it is all for show.
Capn America,
Can you refrain from name calling one day on people you disagree with?
Hey Sol, granted, it is Faux News.
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,324648,00.html
• Top net goods importer from developing countries at $557 billion in 2006 ($916 billion in imports minus $359 billion in exports).
• World’s largest donor of bilateral and multilateral foreign aid. U.S. official development assistance (ODA) of $23.5 billion (net disbursed) in 2006 is the second highest annual level ever provided by any donor country. (The U.S. provided $27.9 billion in 2005.)
• Over $5.5 billion in Compact funding approved for 16 top performing countries in the last three years by the Millennium Challenge Corporation, which expects to complete additional Compacts in 2008.
• $6 billion in HIV/AIDS funding through the President’s Emergency Plan for AIDS Relief in 2008, with a Presidential proposal to add $30 billion over the next 5 years (2009-2013) to the initial 5 year, $15 billion commitment.
• A record $5.6 billion in U.S. bilateral aid to Sub-Saharan Africa in 2006, a $1.5 billion (38%) increase from 2005.
• $3.0 billion in U.S. humanitarian assistance granted in 2006.
http://search.state.gov/search?entqr=1&access=p&sort=date%3AD%3AS%3Ad1&output=xml_no_dtd&entsp=0&ie=UTF-8&lr=lang_en&btnG=Search&client=stategov_frontend&q=%22foreign+aid%22&ud=1&site=stategov%7Coig%7Cfpc%7Cbmena%7Cusawc%7Cmepi%7Ctravel%7Cexchanges%7Ccareers%7Cfoia%7Caiep%7Cpepfar%7Ccspo&oe=UTF-8&proxystylesheet=stategov_frontend&ip=151.163.2.8&start=20
So THAT’S where our money goes…
“American Way” notes —
“Former Sen. Fred Thompson on Tuesday ended his run for the presidency….”
What’s significant about Fredrick of Hollywood’s campaign going tits-up is that Dead Fred has not and will not be endorsing any of the other candidates. Apparently he thinks, with no strong clearly conservative person in the race, he saw no point in endorsing.
Compare with my earlier post about how Democrats are all enthusiastic about any of their top three candidates.
Pleefer, I thought the New World Order was just for conspiracy kooks. Looks like the kooks are in the UN where our money goes…
The value of an MBA from Yale has greatly been diminished by bush the second.
Sol,
Don’t forget the billions in US military bases and support worldwide.
With the Euro valued much higher than the dollar,
Europe should be sending troops to America – to protect us!!! Bring em all home.
WestPac: Empty Okinawa and Honsu Japan of bases. South Korea too. Consider Guam gone as well.
If you could bring ALL the troops home, stop foreign aid, get out of NATO, NAFTA, WTO etc etc, deflate the government, then you could do away with income tax. Couldn’t happen overnight, but it could be done.
Did you just mention…ack! The New World Order????
It’s just a myth…heh.
Ummmmm for what it’s worth, I just heard some nut named Michael Medved ssay that Thompson is going to endorse McCain… something about Thompson co-sponsoring McCain/Feingold?? Guess I will have to catch it later on CNN or MSNBC…
Isnt “New World Order” the phrase that Bush I used in his administration??
Phantom, that type of “logic” is incomprehensible. Yale has no bearing on today’s events in any way, shape or form. It is an extremely prestigious institution of higher learning, and the antics of its almuns will never diminish that.
That would be like saying that Harvard is a lesser institution because Ted Kaczynsk went to school there.
Your hatred of GW Bush is well known..but this kind of statement is bizarre.
WASHINGTON – This week, coinciding with President George W Bush’s two-day trip to Saudi Arabia, the Bush administration is expected to notify Congress about an arms package for Saudi Arabia.
The sale is part of an overall package that was announced at the end of July 2007; a series of arms deals worth at least US$20 billion to Saudi Arabia and five other Persian Gulf states, as well as new 10-year military and economic aid packages to Israel and Egypt.
http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Middle_East/JA16Ak01.html
Does anyone understand why we are arming the middle east?
“alums”…can’t spell (obviously, not an English major from Yale…or anywhere else!)
Nathan: Google “standard of living comparisons” and then go to “A comparison of standard of living betweenthe US and other rich nations” The stats are somewhat old (1991), but the indicators probably haven’t changed much. Then Google “Highest standard of living” and click on “countries with highest standard of living” (2003-04). They are Norway, Sweden, Canada, Belgium, Australia, The United States, Iceland, The Netherlands, Japan and Finland. To back up this somewhat, on international teenage test results reported in the Washington Post Dec. 5/07 covering math and science the top 4 were Norway, S.Korea ,Canada, and Japan with the US coming in 16th-24th depending on the subject. CapnAmerican looks right to me.
“As posted in earlier days, it seems to me that the net effect of all this will be increased inflation, with little to no “growth”.”
Agreed VT. And as you can see, the resident republics here are gleeful. They know they are leaving the White House and likely will not be in control of EITHER the House or the Senate.
They are leaving a nice mess for the next Congress and President to clean up. Sort of like high school seniors trashing the place on the way out.
Kinda makes the lies about the Clinton folks removing the W’s from the keyboards look like small potatoes.
The democrats, on the way out, didnt trash the economy, the rule of law, the election process, our standing in the world, etc.
I think the bushites are TRYING to F things up as much as possible in the next year. They’re gonna hafta work hard to outdo their record for the past seven years…
Sursum,
Try again.
My contesting was not with the fact that those countries may or may not have a higher standard of living than the US.
The points I contested were saying that they all have the highest levels of taxation and government which caused them to have the higher standard of living.
Which is exactly why I asked CapnAmerica where he was getting his information on level of government and taxation in those governments from.
It looks like the author of the linked piece may agree with me, too.
http://www.forbes.com/home/businessinthebeltway/2008/01/22/fed-bernanke-economy-biz-beltway-cx_bw_0122fed.html
Taz, I think after the markets are done goofing up, an MBA from ANYwhere might not look terribly good… Not sure if Yale has anything to do with it! LOL
Let’s see — High Standard of Living, High Taxes, High student test scores, Hmmmm High levels of government… It takes High taxes to support high levels of government… It takes a high standard of living to afford high taxes… Looks like it all pretty much fits by reason of common sense!! Oh well….
Sol — beats me why we would be arming the Saudi’s, since they are the ones who knocked down the towers… But, they ARE longtime, and good friends of the Bush Klan…
Nathan–
Every time you read something you disagree with, you start the “give me sources” chanting.
I always give you sources.
This is well-known general knowledge.
The highest standard of living corresponds very closely with high taxation.
Do your own homework for once.
I’m frankly tired of arguing with someone who conveniently “forgets” when his argument was previously trounced.
Here’s a place to start–
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_Development_Index
For once, I gotta agree with ya, Chas! MBA/markets not the place to be lately!
LOL Taz, that would seem pretty obvious, especially today!! We can only hope it gets better, instead of worse… but I am not sure at this point what to think…
This be why we be arming the Middle East…pay attention kids.
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=4340349985118918525
Nathan said: “My contesting was not with the fact that those countries may or may not have a higher standard of living than the US.”
I am confused… I didnt see anybody make an assertion that any of those countries listed HAS a higher standard of living than the US… Did I miss something??
OK Pleefer…. I sort of get what you mean… I can also see why MAYbe some Republicans are backing McCain… If you put glasses on McCain, and put him in the right style of suit, McCain can bear a resemblance to Ike!! Yikes!! The Republicans are basing their choices on “images”???
No, Chas, Ike warned us that these people were coming…and here we are. He was trying to tell us something and we didn’t listen.
Nathan:From one of the stats I just quoted. Highest personal income taxation rates, as a percent of income. Findland-51%, Sweden-45%, Denmark-40%, United States-34%, Canada-29% and Norway 23%. Dunno what that implies though.
I got that part Pleefer… I was a kid when Ike made the speech… I still remember Dad saying we really needed to listen to Ike!!
It’s pretty obvious that someone, maybe a Bush, ie The Carlysle Group, maybe Halliburton is getting rich making war. And if we have no enemy, then these devils can’t have much of a war.
Oops, sorry girl.
Back in those days, when the President went on TV, used to get several families in a neighborhood all in one living room… Not that many had TV’s yet in every home… I DO remember that time period…
I still remember the neighbor lady next door… She was REAL religious… She was afraid that when Dad put up an outdoor antenna, that it might prevent God from hearing her prayers!!
Dad told her he didnt think it would make any difference. The neighbor lady wasnt sure. She called her Pastor out, and she and some of her Bible Class members had a prayer meeting in their driveway next to our house, to pray the demons away from the Antenna — I dont think I will ever forget that day!!
Good lord, “Nathan” –
Sometimes you should give up while you’re behind.
You posted:
“My contesting was not with the fact that those countries may or may not have a higher standard of living than the US.
“The points I contested were saying that they all have the highest levels of taxation and government which caused them to have the higher standard of living.”
For starters, “Nathan,” (even recognizing that correlation is not always evidence of causation), your standard Republic Party boilerplate that higher taxes will somehow ruin the quality of life in America pretty much rings hollow when you’re faced with the realities of civilized nations that have provided universal healthcare, a real safety net for the weak, the young, the poor.
The dreaded Europeans enjoy a much stronger currency than the United States, in spite of their dreaded tax rate. The unholy Europeans have a far lower abortion rate than Americans, despite being born only once. The wimpy-ass Japanese have a far lower crime rate even without packing heat on the Ginza Strip.
Americans are great people, with a great country and probably the best system of government ever devised, thanks to the Constitution of the United States… if we pay attention to it.
You Marines are kick-ass fighters, and part of that is because you’re Americans. But you’ve got no reason to be sent into battle for no better reason than a piss ant sui disant MBA from Connecticut with a fake Texas accent wants you to. Loyalty has its place. But they don’t issue you a blindfold before they send you into battle. Or shouldn’t.
I respect your service to your nation and what you say you believe in. I’m not sure those two issues are always in concert. I ache at the thought that 1 in 5 of our troops who’ve served in Iraq have come back with brain damage. I’m glad you’re not one of them.
You’re not, are you?
“Chas.” remembers –
“…she and some of her Bible Class members had a prayer meeting in their driveway next to our house, to pray the demons away from the Antenna….”
No wonder you entered the clergy.
Sometimes one never knows for sure what influences career decisions… Poor neighbor lady had her share of problems… I dont think I got any of my influence from her… Maybe a type of “reverse” influence to avoid that type of religious expression… That wasnt the only “strange” thing she did… But it was one of the stranger things…
M H — Another time, the neighbor lady asked if she could come over and watch Dr. Graham on our TV… she wouldnt let her husband buy a TV for their house… But before she would let mother turn on the TV set(and warm it up), she had to annoint it with Oil, to protect Dr. Graham from the harmful effects of TV… Uh huh I know — People had some strange ideas about TV in those days… :roll:
WASHINGTON – This week, coinciding with President George W Bush’s two-day trip to Saudi Arabia, the Bush administration is expected to notify Congress about an arms package for Saudi Arabia.
The sale is part of an overall package that was announced at the end of July 2007; a series of arms deals worth at least US$20 billion to Saudi Arabia and five other Persian Gulf states, as well as new 10-year military and economic aid packages to Israel and Egypt.
Now where is the front for TERRORISM located?
It’s the Bush White House stupid!!!
Taz, (shorthand for Tazamanian Devil?)
The Uni-bomber was extremely intelligent and it is small wonder he earned his degrees from the Universities.
Bush is obviously of limited intelligence so it does diminish the standing of the institution that awarded him his Masters.
Chas, it’s simple bush logic, if the Saudies use their weapons on us, Iran will have hell to pay!
oh come on! Money talks and supports the graduation march of dumb (and drunk) turds like Bush
“Chas.” –
Well, a lot of people didn’t realize, back in the 50s, that you needed to lubricate the television set.
As I’ve often shared, I’m a lapsed agnostic; I’m not sure what it is I don’t believe in. But I’m pretty confident of some of the stuff I don’t believe in. And protecting Billy Graham from the “antenna demons” probably wasn’t all that effective in this life or the next.
I was the quintessntial 50s television baby. I used to wake up early and watch the test pattern (with the Indian in the middle) for an hour, just to get my eyes focused. I’d drive my folks mad by watching Oral Roberts’ tent shows… almost as good as the Bugs Bunny cartoons.
It was a 16-inch Admiral console, with a record player (78-45-33-16 rpm and AM-FM radio… top of the line because the guy we got it from owed my Dad a bunch of money), and the damned thing NEVER WORE OUT!!! It was only thanks to the Kansas City Chiefs getting to the Super Bowl that persuaded my Dad to upgrade to a Color TV.
(Let me tell you, as an aside, that also made the opening to “Bonanza” a quasi-religious experience.)
(And, as another aside as a lapsed agnostic, I haven’t entirely ruled out the Church of Little Joe. But I digress…)
Everyone has their personal spiritual journey, I guess. I was brought up within the Presbyterian Church… and I still have an affinity for the Scotch.
MonkeyHawk, single malt or blended? :-)
I can’t speak for MH, VT, but as for me?
I like the kind of whiskey that comes in a bottle.
Bought some Seven Crown the other day to use just as a mixer. Ya know, that stuff’s not too bad even straight up.
Speaking of which . . . I see by the clock on the wall that it’s “Miller Time.”
Catch you on the flip-flop (as we used to say in the CB radio days . . . )
“Vaughn Tolle” –
My spiritual search has no limits.
I was in Scotland many years ago, thanks to the Presbyterian Church, and the pastor took me out to the local distilary.
The guy there gave us a tour and proudly said all the tubing and apparatus had not been changed since it was built in 1689… “Not even to remove a spider.”
His product was a bit smokey for my taste, but I didn’t have to drink a spider.”
Mezcal con Gusano… well, that’s a different story.
For those who insiston smearing Obama and his Chicago Church — I offer this link >>>
http://www.ucc.org/news/thomas-denounces-smear-1.html
Thank you for reading.
For those who have tried to smear obama and his church, I offer this link >>>
http://www.ucc.org/news/thomas-denounces-smear-1.html
Thank you for reading…
Personally, I lean toward Single Malt… Glenn Levitt, or Glenn Fiddich are preferred… Next to that, I still have a taste for J. W. Red…
I mean, I graduated from a Presbyterian Seminary, after all!!
After Scotch, its good German Dark Beer!!
Back later — Dinner time!!
Chas, Nathan and Sursum: The average piece of an economy taken by governments in the top 30 OECD countries is 36%. Specificallay Mexico takes 18%, Korea 24% Japan 25% the US 26%, Australia 32%,Canada 33%, New Zealand 35% etc. etc. What strikes me is that countries with a low population density (ie., Australia and Canada both less that 3 persons per sq KM) must spend more as a percentage of GDP just to deliver the infrastructe of basic services, whereas the US with better than ten times the sizes in population and economy would spend less per person to deliver the similar goods and services. Economies of scale do come into play here. Taxation does not necessarily suggest more or less socalists tenedencies, but the cost of delivery based on size, population coupled with a total GDP, what the citizens want and expect from their governments. Look at rates for Mexico and New Zealand. I agree that the social conscience is more fully developed in countries with seemingly higher tax rates listed here (New Zealand, Australia and Canada) but I do not believe there is a definitive comment that can be made from all the posted findings that higher taxes do or do not produce a higher standard of living. Going back to shovelling the driveway….again!.
good luck with the shovel!!
If you haven’t lived in those highly praised countries that have a higher standard of living, you probably don’t know what you are talking about.
Everything is higher in price – food, cars, clothes – everything. Europeans melt away when they see the prices we pay on computers and software here. Same with most everything else.
Plus they have charges for stuff we haven’t even thought about. Want some extra napkins for that meal? It will be included on the bill of course.
Perhaps the “I always give you sources” will post another copyrighted photo and make another claim about things he doesn’t know about.
And the last time you were there was when, Regular??
Irrelevant Chas, besides it is well known you Left Libs can’t be trusted with information that is private or linked to a person.
You’ll just use it later to harass the person on a blog to try to suppress their opinion.
The fact is I experienced it and know the much higher prices they have there.
My my — Rampant paranoia… I was just looking for a year… I have eaten in several different restaurants in the States that have those little “extra” prices… I dont think it is a strictly European thing…
I stayed in a Hotel in San Bernardino where one cup of coffee and an English muffin was $11.95… I asked for cream… another $2.95
I definitely think Europe isnt alone in the extra price thing…
You gave an example of a higher end price in the U.S. Chas.
I’m talking about every day living costs and normally purchased products.
Chas……………… give it up, he is just looking to get you started…………… he is a troll and he is proud of it………….. don’t feed………………
I quite agree Clark… not going to argue over something that is highly questionable…
Chas don’t listen to WSClark, he’s not supposed to be here. He said he would never be back.
Chas, Irregular said that he was leaving the blog world on December 31, 2007.
There is no need for you to address the troll, since this is January 2008.
Hey Reg….
With extensive travel experience, I can attest that you wouldn’t find anything in the San Bernardino area to be “higher end”. Course, many things in CA are going to be more expensive (according to the IRS per diem rates) than the midwest, but Berdoo? Nawwww…..
The flaming is absolutely incredible!!
“Regular” offers –
“If you haven’t lived in those highly praised countries that have a higher standard of living, you probably don’t know what you are talking about.
And, considering (according to your previous posts) you were last living in Europe in the 1980s, just what relevance do you have in this discussion?
Then,
“Everything is higher in price – food, cars, clothes – everything.”
Yup. Thanks to the VAT. The Value-Added Tax. A universal sales tax which is the model for The Huckster’s so-called “Fair Tax.”
If you really believe in capitalism, you should accept that everything costs what it costs. A television costs what it costs. A car costs what it costs. A sales tax here or an income tax there… it all means the corporation will get its share. Insurance premiums as insurance premiums plus commissions for salesmen and perks for executives or *TAXES!!!* that go simply to healthcare and administration.
Ah, but let’s insert subsidies and preventions to to bargain and the same medications that cost $10 US in Canada cost $90 US in… America! The country that subsidizes Big Pharma’s R&D!!! What idiot came up with that?! Oh yeah. Shrub.
Let’s lower taxes on people who have nothing better to do than invest and lets make life more expensive for people who have no choice but work. That’s the Republic Party policy.
Oh, this is mild, Chas. In one of his earlier incarnation, JM/Eier/TT/Republikhan/Republican etc tried to say that I was homosexual because I support gay rights.
Damn, troll-boy has had so many nics I can’t even begin to remember them all.
Oh, well – many nics, still just one idiot.
Never been there Taz.
I only know when I payed $1500.00 year just for liability on an older Volkswagen beetle, I saw the start of wallet drain in Germany.
Perhaps the Department of Defense is ignorant as well and why they give service members cost of living allowances (COLA) and Housing Allowance (HOLA) to make up for the differences in the prices there and the U.S.
Or maybe it was the price of gasoline. They sell it by the liter there (3.78 liters per gallon.) As of 14 January 08, the price in Germany was 7.79 for one gallon of gas.
Amazing. Just for the fun of it, I scrolled thru the posts on Dec. 31, and didn’t see a single one from Regular.
I am continually amazed at the paranoid fixation of WS on nics…accusing people (falsely in many cases)of switching nics when he has absolutely no proof whatsoever. His attempts to be “clever” come out sounding paranoid and very, very petty. Standard response to anything he disagrees with is to claim someone is a “troll” and dismisses them.
BTW….WS did say he was leaving and never coming back. So much for honesty from WS.
Ahh yess, I do remember that one Clark!! Of course, he has some silly notion that I am one of the female posters here too!! LOL
MonkeyHawk
Posted January 22, 2008 at 7:22 pm
“And, considering (according to your previous posts) you were last living in Europe in the 1980s, just what relevance do you have in this discussion?”
———————–
Yeah Monkeyhawk – what economic miracle are you aware of that the price of things have gone down in Europe? Things for Europeans must be cheaper now days right? Prices in Europe always go down and never increased?
How about a little less spin and show me some facts that places like Germany isn’t more expensive to live in than the U.S.
“I am continually amazed at the paranoid fixation of WS on nics…accusing people (falsely in many cases)of switching nics when he has absolutely no proof whatsoever”
Well, Taz or whomever the Hell you are – Irregular has admitted to every nic I mentioned and has used many, many more that I have mercifully forgotten.
He has also admitted to nic stealing, etc.
But don’t let me confuse you with facts – I know that is tough for you CONservatives to handle.
Just keep on thinking that the world is out to get you Taz – because it is.
Taz — excuse me — it wouldnt have been posted under “regular” on Dec. 31!! LOL Nice try… No yardage there!!
I am not the paranoid one here. I don’t waste my time analyzing every word trying to determine if someone has “changed” nic as if it is something really important.
Naw…it really isn’t that important to me to worry about. Your fixation with it is unbelievable. Like you have “discovered” when someone uses a different nic. Like…SO WHAT????
“#
Regular
Posted January 22, 2008 at 7:14 pm | Permalink
Chas don’t listen to WSClark, he’s not supposed to be here. He said he would never be back.
So did YOU and several times!
Ya know? I WISH stuff was more expensive in the US.
There, I said it.
We are inundated with so much cheap food and stuff that there’s no thought as to waste. The excess in this country is sometimes frankly sickening.
But in the really important things like health care, there’s not enough to go around.
I havent seen anything yet that claims that Germany is cheaper to live in than the USA… Not sure where that “bait” is coming from…
Taz — Hypothetically — if ONE individual uses 5 or 6 different nics on the Blog, then other posters who may not be aware of such a thing, are in reality talking to ONE person, and not the 5 or 6 that they THINK they are talking to…
And when the creative/inventive Nic Switcher then involves some of his/her Nics in dialogue with each other(talking to him/herself) then that is just plain meanness and stupidity.
Okay, here is a scenario for all you Libs out there.
Let’s say you move to Germany and want to rent a house or an apartment.
You walk in to inspect the place and you find no furniture – pretty standard eh? But wait, you also find no sink in the kitchen – standard in Germany. You also find no light fixtures anywhere – standard in Germany.
Your prospective Landlord comes up to you and states that you will need to pay in advance for four months of heating oil. That’s of course after you by the stove that heats the oil because the apartment didn’t come with one.
The lease for the apartment is one year and unbreakable. You will be charged for the lease whether you live there or not.
Now you press on to the bathroom. You see a shower, but there is only cold water. You have to buy those “liter” heaters so you can have hot water when you bathe. There is also no sink in there, so you will need to buy one of those. Of course, the sink has no hot water, so you will need to buy a “liter” heater for the bathroom sink.
You price the cost of an oil heating stove and then you stop and think. Wait…I have a bedroom, a living room as well and there is no heat source in there – so that means I have to buy two oil heating stoves!
You will need to hook up to utilities, but you didn’t know the law requires you to have a Germany Bank account in order for you to put deposits for water and electricity. So you go to the bank and open up an account. Because you don’t have $5000 to put in, you will be charged a fee for accounting that services the fees you will have to pay on your utilities. That doesn’t include the monthly fee for the bank account.
That’s just the start of it, because there are no refrigerators left in houses or apartments, you must buy your own. And, because of the small size of German living quarters, the refrigerators are about the size of the small refrigerators that people keep beverages in here in the U.S.
You soon find out that long term food storage is not the way things are done in Germany. You must make daily trips to the food store, but first you have to stop by and get some cabinets for your apartment because that is standard in Germany – no cabinets.
Your house hold goods come and you want to hang your clothes up. Oops! There are no clothes closets built in in apartments or houses in Germany. So off to the furniture mart once again and you purchase a Kleider Shrank.
You are tired of the dark, so you buy your light fixtures for each room.
Winter is approaching and the heating oil tanker trucks pulls up. You’ve paid for the fuel oil, but the landlord advises you that the truck drive will want a delivery fee and an environmental fee for disposing/recycling of any old fuel oil left in the tank.
Everything is cool right? Not just yet, there is that little thing about the State Inspection fee on your fuel oil storage and heaters. If none have an official tag, which of course is another fee, you will be quite cold this winter.
Finally a relief, the charges are over until you get a bill in the mail for the pollution tax on the burning of your fuel oil. You must pay or be subject to penalties under the law.
You’ve had about enough and want some relaxation, so you go out to find some entertainment and buy some things. It’s Sunday and you find everything is closed – I mean everything but churches, bars and a few restaurants. There are no food stores opened and of course no Walmarts or any other kind of store opened.
So you stop by a GastHouse to buy a beer and a wurst. The bill is presented and it costs you five dollars for the beer and another 4.50 for the wurst.
Feeling low, you go back to your apartment and want to watch some TV or listen to a radio. The TV is out of the question because you ain’t getting any reception because you have an NTSC television. You will need to buy a German TV that uses PAL standard. Besides, if you don’t have cable in Germany, you won’t get sound and you certainly won’t get reception – more expenses.
You turn on the radio and find out from a kind neighbor that unless you have a tall external antennae or subscribe to a radio service, you won’t be listening at home to any radio shows.
You turn on your stereo and crank up the volume. A German neighbor comes over that on Sunday, quiet time is observed and one may not make any loud noises of any kind to include – lawn mowing, loud music, loud talking or yelling or anything else that would pollute the noise environment.
It’s snowing outside and it accumulates rapidly. You get a knock on the door about 5 a.m. Your landlord advices you that German law requires you to keep the area in front of your apartment and the public sidewalk free from snow. The Landlord also scolds you that any trash on the sidewalk or on the curb next to your apartment is your responsibility and you can be fined if it is not kept clean. Doesn’t matter who threw the trash or if there dirt flowed down from somewhere else, you have to clean it.
Monday comes, it’s time to go to work. There is snow on the ground and ice on the roads. You get up extra early to remove the snow and set off to work. It’s a good thing you left early as the traffic is bumper to bumper in the little town you live in that is 18 miles away from where you work.
The speed on the road due to traffic is about maximum of 10mph, stop and go every few feet. You become concerned if half a tank of gas will get you to work.
You are wishing you would have purchased the automatic transmission on your VW beetle as your left “clutch” leg is now about twice the size of your right leg from holding it in for so long due to the stop and go traffic.
There’s more to the story, but don’t want to bore anyone.
Oh, the reason you lease an apartment that is 18 miles away is that the Germany market for housing is quite competitive and there was nothing you could afford that was closer to where you work.
Looks like William is not practicing what he was preaching to me about just posting for discussion on the WE Blog and leaving the ad hominem out of the discussion.
But you know, William was always a “do as I say” and not as “I do: type of person.
Libs crawl out of the woodwork when they have a chance to dog pile a “con” with totally empty rhetoric, insult and personal attack. It happens every day on this blog without fail.
It’s their way of life, they can’t help being self loathing victims of their own hate filled, sanctimonious world of secular worship.
Chas..
Interesting analysis..but the only meanness I have seen here are the gratuitous and juvenile insults.
Taz,
I’m James, that’s my real name. CapnAmerica and his gang of blogladytes found it necessary to post email and address on my relatives here on the blog so they would have “something” over on me.
I have used the name Kansas, Republikhan and Republican on this blog because they were my registered TypePad names.
Notice how the Libs are using Kansas now. They like nic stealing and trolling. Hypocrites? Naw, not to the Leftist libs.
Anyway, this thread is degenerating and you can bet the leftist libs will come back and say more, because it their way of life – hate, bigotry and double standard hypocrisy.
Jeez, now I feel bad.
Not.
Reg–thanks for the info. I don’t know why I am accused of being a “puppet”…I don’t espouse one line of political theory over another–but I do enjoy pointing out the foibles of some of the “arguments” posted!
I do tire of the inane insults and outright mean aspects here. I understand once it was described as “rough and tumble”. Another way to look at that would be “rude and juvenile”. But..it is amusing at times. Especially following some of the ego contests of people who take this waaaay too seriously!
Thanks again..
Wow so much spin… never fails!!
Does this mean you’re leaving now, Taz? Well, I would say that it has been fun, but that’s not true, but you have a good life anyway.
Bye! Don’t bother to write!
See ya’ Taz!
Now wait just a cotton pickin’ minute thar regular!
You said EYE could use da ole Kansas NIC. Now I see some other whipper snapper, nic-switching, troll impersonatin’ SOB has stolen it!
Taz,
JimmyMac posted lies about what caused the New Orleans levees to fail.
He then copy/pasted some paragraphs from a web page, and added a fabricated, false paragraph to it to support his lies about the levees — using another poster’s nic.
There are many other examples, but long story short, JimmyMac has zero credibility.
Just a minute Regular.
Now wait just a cotton pickin’ minute thar regular!
You said EYE could use da ole Kansas NIC. Now I see some other whipper snapper, nic-switching, troll impersonatin’ SOB has stolen it!
Leaving? Did I write something in code that said I was going somewhere? Or are you, once again, reading things that were not written?
Actually cosmos, I was absolutely correct about the levee situation in New Orleans. I have shown you about 20 times the source, who said, the Web Address, the Corp of Engineer Reports, the legal decisions and etc.
Yes, I did have some fun with JM Walker, one time and apologized for it.
How many hundreds of times have you leftist lib trolls used my nic on the previous blog and this blog and never fessed up to it.
What a hypocrite cosmos is, the non-scientist who readily admits that global climate models are inaccurate and only guesses can be made because the climate is too complex to predict as there are too many unknowns. (I Have his quote where he says that.)
Yes I know Pat Herron, I said you could use it – not anyone else.
I knew it would get stolen though – Leftist Libs can’t be trusted.
Perhaps if Hillary Clinton gets elected, she won’t be able to keep secrets either and sell technology to the Chinese like Bill Clinton did. Or worse yet, sell technology to some Muslim nation so that “diplomatic” relations can occur. (cough)
“Leaving? Did I write something in code that said I was going somewhere?”
Oh, I guess it was just wishfully thinking on my part.
My bad.
Yes Regular some lower than whale shi@ low life liberal thought it would be funny to NIC SWITCH and use the Kansas nic.
Interesting, how they fall all over themselves calling you out on NIC-switching, yet enjoy a few switch hitters themselves.
I believe they are hypocrites. And they haven’t washed last months smegma from their stinkin’ arseholes.
By the way Taz, if you haven’t registered you might want to do so before 31 January or you might not be able to post here or anywhere on the Wichita Eagle.
Click on my name to go to the registration process.
Won’t say it will do away with the huge amount of Lib Trolls, but with a real email address required, it will limit them.
The Libs will also have to sign an electronic terms of service (TOS.) Any violation of the TOS will most likely get them kicked from the blog.
Oh, you mean like selling military technology to a Nation like Saudi Arabia??? And then they can use it any way they want?? And all because our Preznit is long time family friends with the Saudi’s?? That kind of selling technology??? Hmmmm I think thats already happened, and Hillary isnt even the Nominee yet!!
Study: False statements preceded war
43 minutes ago
WASHINGTON – A study by two nonprofit journalism organizations found that President Bush and top administration officials issued hundreds of false statements about the national security threat from Iraq in the two years following the 2001 terrorist attacks.
The study concluded that the statements “were part of an orchestrated campaign that effectively galvanized public opinion and, in the process, led the nation to war under decidedly false pretenses.”
The study was posted Tuesday on the Web site of the Center for Public Integrity, which worked with the Fund for Independence in Journalism. White House spokesman Scott Stanzel said he could not comment on the study because he had not seen it.
The study counted 935 false statements in the two-year period. It found that in speeches, briefings, interviews and other venues, Bush and administration officials stated unequivocally on at least 532 occasions that Iraq had weapons of mass destruction or was trying to produce or obtain them or had links to al-Qaida or both.
“It is now beyond dispute that Iraq did not possess any weapons of mass destruction or have meaningful ties to al-Qaida,” according to Charles Lewis and Mark Reading-Smith of the Fund for Independence in Journalism staff members, writing an overview of the study. “In short, the Bush administration led the nation to war on the basis of erroneous information that it methodically propagated and that culminated in military action against Iraq on March 19, 2003.”
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080123/ap_on_go_pr_wh/misinformation_study;_ylt=AkrOteOYS83oQ8GCg8fw4des0NUE
My goodness, who is it that doesnt have a real email address now?? I thought that was required??
Good grief… here comes the sexual grunt crew, complete with obnoxious language!! Geez!!
#
Chas.
Posted January 22, 2008 at 9:03 pm | Permalink
Oh, you mean like selling military technology to a Nation like Saudi Arabia??? And then they can use it any way they want?? And all because our Preznit is long time family friends with the Saudi’s?? That kind of selling technology??? Hmmmm I think thats already happened, and Hillary isnt even the Nominee yet!!
——————-
I know what you are thinking Chas, but you are wrong. The 911 hijackers used zero military technology from the U.S. in their attacks on the WTC, Pentagon and etc.
Agreements to support the Saudis goes back decades. As I recall, the Saudis bought some of the AWAC’s aircraft back in the 1980s, plus some tankers.
The military technology sold to Saudi Arabia has never been used in any terrorist attack.
It’s another false accusation brought forth by the less than average Left Lib groups.
Regular: About day-to-day costs in those countries for basics, you are of course, right. I’ve been in western Europe a few times myself, but taxation may only be a part of it. Back to my economies of scale again. Even when the US and Canadian dollar is about par, consusmer goods and services are still way cheaper in the US because you buy, make, trade, produce, create and invest 10 times as much us. Bound to be more efficient and therefore less costly to the consumer…eh?
Chas……….. trolls…………. no feed, they starve……………… easy………………
Regular — I dont care if they used tinker toys to bring down the towers… It was still nearly ALL Saudi citizens who were involved!!
So, now, in the middle of what Bush calls his beloved “war on terror” we sell/give them weapons of war… Doesnt make a nickel’s worth of sense…. Why doesnt Bush do something helpful, and go Napalm all of the poppy fields in Afghanistan??? THAT might help the war on terror, AND the war on drugs!! JMOHO
NN,
Efficiency is modeled in capitalism because by its nature it is competitive and offers best market prices.
One of the problems I have with European Socialism is that it gets into every single aspect of your life. Heck, even the churches in Germany get government funds and of course England has a State Sponsored church.
There isn’t a thing in Germany that the German government didn’t have their fingers into or wrapped around.
“Heck, even the churches in Germany get government funds and of course England has a State Sponsored church.” {Posted by NN}
And if certain politicians get elected in USA, they could ease USA ever closer to a State Sponsored Church here as well… Ohhh I do hope NOT!!
Chas.
Posted January 22, 2008 at 9:12 pm | Permalink
“Regular — I dont care if they used tinker toys to bring down the towers… It was still nearly ALL Saudi citizens who were involved!!”
Yes Chas they were from Saudi Arabia, but all were part of radical Islamic cults.
The majority of Saudis are nice people. Albeit, they live in a much different and in some ways a stricter culture than ours, they are decent people.
Want to meet a nice Saudi? Go up on Broadway and say hello to Wally (Auto Sales) for me (Walleed.) One of the nicest people you will meet, a Saudi and a solid citizen. Not sure if he has his citizenship yet, but he is very active in the community.
Just by the Saudi’s treatment of their women, seems to show they are a couple of hundred years behind the times… They might be nice, but extremely weird!!
#
Chas.
Posted January 22, 2008 at 9:20 pm | Permalink
Just by the Saudi’s treatment of their women, seems to show they are a couple of hundred years behind the times… They might be nice, but extremely weird!!
————-
I don’t like the Saudi Islamic attitude toward women either Chas.
However, it’s their culture, their religious beliefs and their country.
And so the USA shows tacit approval of the Saudi way of life, by selling military weapons to a fairly radical Islamic nation… And we all know from BushCo, that Radical Islam wants to over throw our government, and take over the world…
Oh well…. it doesnt matter… IF the weapons sold to Saudi Arabia would somehow be used against USA, many right wing spinmeisters would try to “blame it on Clinton”. Oy Vey!!
But heaven forbid, we should be allowed to buy fine Cuban Havana Cigars…
Chas.
Posted January 22, 2008 at 9:26 pm | Permalink
And so the USA shows tacit approval of the Saudi way of life, by selling military weapons to a fairly radical Islamic nation… And we all know from BushCo, that Radical Islam wants to over throw our government, and take over the world…
——————–
Chas,
The Saudis are probably the most conservative of the Arab nations, they are not radical. There are radical sects of course.
However, in the U.S., we have gangs, mass murderers, serial rapists, military operated camps by far right wing goofballs and of course people like Timonthy McVeigh. The U.S. doesn’t have clean hands in the morality department.
===========================
#
Chas.
Posted January 22, 2008 at 9:27 pm | Permalink
But heaven forbid, we should be allowed to buy fine Cuban Havana Cigars…
———————–
Buy them from another country in the Gulf Waters or in Central America. The climate is basically the same, the type of tobacco plant is the same and the production technique is the same.
Besides, smoking is bad for you.
However, in the U.S., we have gangs, mass murderers, serial rapists, military operated camps by far right wing goofballs and of course people like Timonthy McVeigh. The U.S. doesn’t have clean hands in the morality department. {Regular}
So, when is the last time one of our goon groups from here bombed a Saudi building, or an Islam holy place??
#
Chas.
Posted January 22, 2008 at 9:35 pm | Permalink
However, in the U.S., we have gangs, mass murderers, serial rapists, military operated camps by far right wing goofballs and of course people like Timonthy McVeigh. The U.S. doesn’t have clean hands in the morality department. {Regular}
So, when is the last time one of our goon groups from here bombed a Saudi building, or an Islam holy place??
—————
Church bombings in the South, the Federal building in OK City with a child care center and abortion clinic bombs are not enough for you Chas?
There were incidents against Muslims in the U.S. after 911. It has pretty much calmed own.
Why do you want parity for violence amongst difference ideological groups Chas?
(Sorry, this may have been posted earlier, but I haven’t made it through this thread yet.)
Well, DUH!
**WASHINGTON – A study by two nonprofit journalism organizations found that President Bush and top administration officials issued hundreds of false statements about the national security threat from Iraq in the two years following the 2001 terrorist attacks.
The study concluded that the statements “were part of an orchestrated campaign that effectively galvanized public opinion and, in the process, led the nation to war under decidedly false pretenses.”
The study was posted Tuesday on the Web site of the Center for Public Integrity, which worked with the Fund for Independence in Journalism.**
AP http://tinyurl.com/2lu6qu
Talk among yourselves…
I didnt SAY I wanted parity… Dont spin what I said into what YOU want it to say!!
What I SAID was that none of OUR radical groups have gone to an Islamic country, and blown up their stuff like their radicals have done to US!! Geez, read it right, James!!
Nice post, RD… Thanks!!
#
Chas.
Posted January 22, 2008 at 9:56 pm | Permalink
What I SAID was that none of OUR radical groups have gone to an Islamic country, and blown up their stuff like their radicals have done to US!! Geez, read it right, James!!
—————–
It only requires a little bit of thinking Chas to realize that the ideologies of radical groups are quite different. Their goals and objectives are much different.
Why would a far right wing militant group in the U.S. who opposes U.S. Government control of their lives want to go to Saudi Arabia and blow up a Mosque?
Perhaps one could rationalize it out to themselves, but they would have a hard time adjusting to, blending in and adapting to a much different society such as Saudi Arabia has.
Maybe you just need someone to think it through for you? :)
YOU brought up the right wing militant groups HERE at home… My POINT is that none of OUR people of ANY kind… have attacked Saudi Arabia like they did here… And yet, WE now sell them weapons of WAR…
It just doesnt make any kind of rational sense…
There is no guarantee that the Saudi’s wont turn those weapons they are buying from us, against US!!
Once again, Regular, you try to twist what is said, to try to have it your way… I am not going to let you do that… not tonite… not ever, as long as I can help it… So, just stop your diversionary tactics… I know what my point was, and whether YOU like it or not, it is a valid point!! Bush just flat out screwed the pooch!!
Very Interesting >>>
http://inexplicata.blogspot.com/2008/01/puerto-rico-giant-ufo-over-guanica.html
#
Chas.
Posted January 22, 2008 at 10:06 pm | Permalink
Once again, Regular, you try to twist what is said, to try to have it your way… I am not going to let you do that… not tonite… not ever, as long as I can help it… So, just stop your diversionary tactics… I know what my point was, and whether YOU like it or not, it is a valid point!! Bush just flat out screwed the pooch!!
———————
Then give me some facts to respond to, instead of far Left Wing talking points.
What you have written is rhetoric with out a factual basis.
#
Chas.
Posted January 22, 2008 at 10:16 pm | Permalink
Very Interesting >>>
http://inexplicata.blogspot.com/2008/01/puerto-rico-giant-ufo-over-guanica.html
—————-
UFO’s Chas?
Sorry, not going there. I’ll leave that to the tinfoil hats and Shirley MacLaine/Kucinich Worship followers.
So Pedant oops I mean RD
Were the Democrats in this video complicit about Iraq with their false statements as well?
http://youtube.com/watch?v=FNgaVtVaiJE
Regular,
I won’t excuse the Dem part in this. They shouldn’t have accepted things at face value. They should have looked into things to see what was true, what might be true, and what absolutely was not true. For that I blame them.
Who knew the information coming out of the White House and other reliable institutions couldn’t be trusted? Millions of people believed the garbage. And yet there were those who didn’t blithely go along, accepting everything fed to us. Some of us questioned. None of us got real answers, truthful answers.
Does that answer your question?
Regular — Its a BLOG, not a poli/sci class.. You have the same facts I have… WELL known facts… Pretending they do not exist doesnt look good for you… Sorry… Bush sells weapons of war to the nation where the attackers of our twin towers originated.. That is the discussion here… UNLESS you want to argue about where the attackers came from, or that Bush is NOT selling weapons of war to Saudi Arabia… But youre not dumb enough to argue those points… SO, the facts are already laid out, at least twice now…
So, now spin out some right wing junk about why we should be selling weapons of war to an Enemy Nation!! Geez!!
Democrats’ Hypocrisy Over The Iraq War
http://youtube.com/watch?v=FCVZlLBchVE&feature=related
Regular,
Are you under the impression that Pendant and I are one and the same? Uh, no. I think I was posting here a while before Pendant appeared, although I can’t swear to that. I also think we’re both female. I was posting under another nic, before deciding to return to my original. Is that a problem for you?
Pendant,
If you’re not a ’she’, my apologies. :)
#
RD
Posted January 22, 2008 at 10:30 pm | Permalink
Regular,
I won’t excuse the Dem part in this. They shouldn’t have accepted things at face value. They should have looked into things to see what was true, what might be true, and what absolutely was not true. For that I blame them.
Who knew the information coming out of the White House and other reliable institutions couldn’t be trusted? Millions of people believed the garbage. And yet there were those who didn’t blithely go along, accepting everything fed to us. Some of us questioned. None of us got real answers, truthful answers.
Does that answer your question?
——————–
RD,
View the two videos I posted and then come back with your opinion. Some of those statements about Iraq were made before Bush was even President. It was the Clinton Presidency that signed into the law that had the objective of the Democratization of Iraq. If you read the declaration of war on Iraq during the Bush administration, you will find the law signed by President Clinton as one of the justifications for invading Iraq.
RD writes:
“Some of us questioned. None of us got real answers, truthful answers.”
And when we questioned, RD, the BushCo folks called us traitors, and Anti-American, and cowards. And then when Congress DID vote on what they had been given, erroneously, those who later found out they had been duped, were once again made fun of — He voted FOR the war before he voted AGAINST the war!! Like doing so was somehow a flawed action??
Horse hockey!!
It’s all a game to them, RD…
They loved it when Bush said, “Bring it on!” They treated it like a Football game!! To me, THAT attitude was UnAmerican!! Not to mention overly egotistical!!
Oh yea, RD, I forgot one thing… When they cant justify it any other way, “Blame it on Clinton!!”
Regular,
I’m in the middle of something right now and can’t view your video links. However, I’m sure I’ve seen them or been told ad nauseum about their content. Yes, it had been stated in the past that Saddam was a threat. Did I deny that? The point is, was he really such a threat that we needed to take the action we did? I think not, considering the facts.
Chad,
I already posted on another thread to that argument. Facts are facts. They can spin and deny all they want. Doing so only makes them look like fools. Similar to someone who lives in a large “house” in D.C. that’s painted white? ;)
Yep… I gotcha!!
#
Chas.
Posted January 22, 2008 at 10:31 pm | Permalink
Regular — Its a BLOG, not a poli/sci class.. You have the same facts I have… WELL known facts… Pretending they do not exist doesnt look good for you… Sorry… Bush sells weapons of war to the nation where the attackers of our twin towers originated.. That is the discussion here… UNLESS you want to argue about where the attackers came from, or that Bush is NOT selling weapons of war to Saudi Arabia… But youre not dumb enough to argue those points… SO, the facts are already laid out, at least twice now…
So, now spin out some right wing junk about why we should be selling weapons of war to an Enemy Nation!! Geez!!
——————————-
Take a look at the next post I put up Chas. This blogger explains the history of sales and relationships to the Saudis and the United Arab Emirates very well.
Playing the Muslim Card: The U.A.E., the Taliban and the Democrats (Part 1)
Do any of the bloggers running the larger web sites in the political blogosphere ever do pre-spouting research?
From Markos Moulitsas (Daily KOS) on February 21, 2006:
United Arab Emirates
We see Orrin Hatch and countless of Republican apologists continue to pretend that Iraq had something to do with Al Qaida [sic] in order to justify the clusterfrack in Iraq.
Then there’s the United Arab Emirates. And what’s the UAE record on terrorism?
• The UAE was one of three countries in the world to recognize the Taliban as the legitimate government of Afghanistan.
• The UAE has been a key transfer point for illegal shipments of nuclear components to Iran, North Korea and Lybia [sic.].
• According to the FBI, money was transferred to the 9/11 hijackers through the UAE banking system.
• After 9/11, the Treasury Department reported that the UAE was not cooperating in efforts to track down Osama Bin Laden’s bank accounts.
We bomb Iraq which had nothing to do with 9/11, yet we hand UAE the keys to our ports.
That’s the Bush Administration in action.
From Duncan Black on February 19:
Jolly Old Pals
From March, 2004:
The Central Intelligence Agency did not target Al Qaeda chief Osama bin laden once as he had the royal family of the United Arab Emirates with him in Afghanistan, the agency’s director, George Tenet, told the National Commission on Terrorist Attacks on the United States on Thursday.
Had the CIA targeted bin Laden, half the royal family would have been wiped out as well, he said.
I don’t see how it’s a good idea to hand over ports to Bin Laden’s pals.
Again, this is not about an “Arab company,” this is a company owned and controlled by the hereditary oligarchy of the UAE, many of whom, apparently, were Bin Laden’s jolly old pals.
You know boys, you may just want to let this issue drop altogether…
Here is why (for starters):
The text of a White House press release by then Vice President Al Gore.
Note the date.
THE WHITE HOUSE Office of the Vice President
March 05, 2000
VICE PRESIDENT GORE LAUDS LOCKHEED MARTIN SALE OF F-16s TO THE UNITED ARAB EMIRATES
Washington, DC — Vice President Al Gore today congratulated Lockheed Martin and the United Arab Emirates on Sunday’s announcement from Abu Dhabi that they have completed terms on the sale of 80 F-16 fighter jets to the UAE — finalizing a purchase announced at the White House in May of 1998 by UAE Crown Prince Khalifa and Vice President Gore.
The sale of the 80 F-16s at an estimated cost of more than $6 billion will generate — according to company data — 100,000 man-years of direct employment at Lockheed Martin; at Northrop Grumman, which supplies some of the F-16’s most sophisticated technology; and at the hundreds of companies in 40 states who supply parts for the advanced fighter jet. At the same time, the sale will enhance the UAE’s defense capability and the U.S.-UAE security partnership.
“This sale is just the latest in a long line of acknowledgments of the skill, ingenuity, and excellence of Lockheed Martin employees and their suppliers,” Vice President Gore said. “It shows us again how American mastery of high technology is essential to both advancing our economic growth and protecting our national security.”
Vice President Gore was part of a White House team that encouraged the UAE to purchase the F-16 as the Gulf country was considering bids from international competitors. In May of 1998, the Vice President and Crown Prince Khalifa announced at the White House the UAE’s intention to purchase 80 F-16s. That same week, the Vice President joined UAE officials at the Lockheed Martin plant in Fort Worth to celebrate the announcement. Early this year, the Vice President was in contact with the Crown Prince during the final push for an agreement.
The sale is part of U.S. efforts to help Gulf allies defend their interests in the region. Just before Iraq invaded Kuwait in August of 1990, Saddam had threatened the UAE along with Kuwait for overproduction of petroleum. The UAE then played an integral role in the Allied coalition against Iraq.
“The UAE will reap immense national security benefits from the F-16, and from the close relationships it will bring them with the finest Air Force and finest defense contractors in the world,” Vice President Gore said. “The sale also advances U.S. interests by equipping an important Gulf ally with an advanced fighter jet that can help deter aggression in the region.”
What is important to remember is that as of the date of that particular announcement, March 5, 2000, the United Arab Emirates was one of only three countries on Earth that had recognized the Taliban as the legitimate government of Afghanistan. Also note that as of the date of the announcement, that diplomatic recognition had been in place for three years.
The. Taliban.
Osama.bin.Laden.
I’m not sure Markos or Duncan are going to get much mileage out of claiming the U.A.E. were Osama bin Laden’s “jolly old pals” when it appears President Bill Clinton and Vice President Al Gore were the U.A.E.’s “jolly old pals”…
But that’s just me.
Note: This doesn’t even touch on the fact that the Financial Times reported on Saturday that Bill Clinton collected $450,000 in speaking fees in Dubai in 2002, or that the U.A.E. donated between $500,000 and $1,000,000 to help fund Clinton’s presidential library.
Playing the Muslim Card: The U.A.E, the Taliban and the Democrats (Part 2)
As many of you know, during the Taliban’s five years of rule in Afghanistan there were exactly three countries on the face of the Earth that extended diplomatic recognition to that regime. For the record, Pakistan and Saudi Arabia did so in May, 1997, and the United Arab Emirates followed shortly thereafter. On the face of it, this fact seems to suggest to certain elements of the Democratic/Progressive/Leftist axis that the Bush Administration’s embrace of each of these nations in the War on Terror can only be explained by something… sinister
The reasoning behind this amongst these DLP-ers is that if Bush (and his “cronies”) were really serious about National Security and the War on Terror, etc., etc., etc., the United States would punishing, rather than allying with, these nations. This is particularly true when discussing the prospect of Dubai Ports World taking over the U.S. operations of Peninsular and Oriental. This, so the argument goes, is the real reason for objecting to the presence of DPW in the U.S.; that DPW is the state-owned creature of a nation that backed the Taliban and has proved “demonstrably unreliable” in the War on Terror.
Of course, for those of us who have been watching closely, we would note that the “Taliban” argument only came forth after it was pointed out that state-owned companies from Singapore and the People’s Republic of China have a far greater presence at U.S. ports (and terminals) that DPW would be granted. But that hasn’t mattered much to this particular DLP faction… What matters is advancing the storyline that this is all about Bush enriching his Arab friends by whatever means possible and demonstrating, once again, that he isn’t serious about National Security.
Unfortunately, I don’t think this storyline is going to wash. It certainly doesn’t stand up to the facts as related by the Grimmett Report. Here are a sampling of facts from that report:
From 1996-1999, Saudi Arabia signed purchase agreements for $4.6 billion in U.S. defense equipment and services. Saudi Arabia trailed only Egypt ($5.8 billion) in total purchases during that time frame.
Note that between 1996 and 2000, the United States had a Democratic President. Also note that Saudi Arabia and the U.A.E. had diplomatic relations with the Taliban regime in Afghanistan from mid-1997 through Sept. 2001.
In the first full year after both Saudi Arabia and the United Arab Emirates had recognized the Taliban – 1998 – the Clinton Administration notified Congress of proposed U.S. arms export agreements totaling $2 billion to the United Arab Emirates and $946 million to Saudi Arabia.
It is worth noting that under the 1976 Arms Export Control Act, Congress must be notified of the following:
1. the proposed sale of what is defined as “major defense equipment” that equals or exceeds $14 million, or
2. the proposed sale of what is not defined as “major defense equipment” that total $50 million or more, or
3. the proposed sale of design and/or construction services equal to or greater than $200 million.
It is also worth noting that under the 1976 act, Congress had 30 days after notification of any proposed sales to Saudi Arabia or the United Arab Emirates to block those sales via a joint resolution of disapproval. Congress put forth no such resolution. In fact, Congress has never once issued a joint resolution of disapproval to a proposed arms sale to either the Saudis or the U.A.E. in the 30 years since the act became law.
The fact of the matter is that the Carter and Clinton Administrations sold weapons to the U.A.E. and Saudi Arabia just as fast as did the Reagan, Bush Senior or Bush Junior Administrations. The F-16 C/Ds sold by the Clinton Administration to the United Arab Emirates, with the full approval of the Republican Congress, are more advanced than the F-16 C/Ds in our own nation’s service. This was done during the years that the United Arab Emirates openly recognized the Taliban regime in Afghanistan, and whatever moral and ethical qualms the Administration and Congress had – if any – about handing over 80 advanced fighters (with complimentary weapons systems, radar and munitions) to such a nation seem to have been easily overcome by geopolitical (and economic) interests.
Certainly no-one of prominence with the Democratic Party – from President Clinton to Vice President Gore to Senators Schumer, Kerry and Feinstein – felt it necessary to voice any doubts about the wisdom of handing the United Arab Emirates or Saudi Arabia all the weapons they could buy while those two nations gave diplomatic recognition and (in the case of Saudi Arabia at the least) material support to the Taliban.
So we come back to my first series of questions: Why now? Why Dubai Ports World?
Any Democrats want to take a stab at explaining away the Clinton Years when it comes to relations with the United Arab Emirates?
http://dennisthepeasant.typepad.com/dennis_the_peasant/2006/03/playing_the_mus_7.html
Office of the Vice President — Vice President Gore lauds Lockheed Martin sale of F-16s to the United Arab Emirates.
M2 Presswire, March, 2000
M2 PRESSWIRE-7 March 2000-THE WHITE HOUSE: Office of the Vice President — Vice President Gore lauds Lockheed Martin sale of F-16s to the United Arab Emirates (C)1994-2000 M2 COMMUNICATIONS LTD RDATE:05032000 Washington, DC — Vice President Al Gore today congratulated Lockheed Martin and the United Arab Emirates on Sunday’s announcement from Abu Dhabi that they have completed terms on the sale of 80 F-16 fighter jets to the UAE — finalizing a purchase announced at the White House in May of 1998 by UAE Crown Prince Khalifa and Vice President Gore.
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This is all so very nauseating. It reminds me of the scene in Animal House where Flounder is distraught about the wreckage of his brother’s car and is told that he “screwed up, you trusted us!”
That is the tack that the Republicans are taking now – the Democrats screwed up because they were gullible enough to believe the President of the United States.
Most of the Democrats (not this one, however) never believed that the boy-moron President would deceive them into going along with him. Only the president and select cabinet members received NIE’s. Only the president and his advisers knew that most of the intelligence was based on one man’s (Curveball)discredited information. Only the president and his advisers knew that the whole justification for the invasion was a sham.
And, even though some of the Democrats unknowingly went along with the charade, the Republicans still tried to paint Democrats as un-American, traitors, weak and aiding and abetting.
Now, the Republican liars and spin artists want the Democrats to SHARE responsibility for the War on Iraq. Some, like Karl Rove, have even suggested that the vote on the authorization was the Democrats idea.
What an unbelievable load of shit.
The Democrats were gullible enough to believe Bush. They failed to see that the boy wannabe War President had a terminal hard on for Saddam Hussein and badly wanted to show his father up by taking out the “bad man.”
In other words, the Democrats screwed up. They trusted Bush.
And folks wonder why our country is so divided?
Three words…………..
George Walker Bush.
Yep I was right… When they dont hve anything else, blame it on Clinton… Ummmm Regular, during the Clinton Administration, 19 Saudi hijackers had not flown planes into the WTC, Pentagon, and crashed one in PA!!! And during the Clinton Administration, we had not invaded Iraq, and executed Iraq’s Elected President!!
The world wont ever be the same as it was before 9/11 no matter how much you want to blame on Clinton… The facts dont support your shallow arguments!! Try again another day…
I have a series of early appointments… Sooo
Good night; Good luck;
And God bless; whatever you conceive
God to be!
Blessings all!! Even GWB and Co.
Just sad Chas,
I give you undeniable proof that Democrats were complicit in arm sales, making pro Iraqi War speeches and generally complicit with the only three countries that recognized the Taliban which harbored Osama Bin Laden.
What do you do Chas? You run away with your arms flailing.
Typical.
“Any Democrats want to take a stab at explaining away the Clinton Years when it comes to relations with the United Arab Emirates?”
No stabbing tonight, Regular, but are you aware that we currently have troops in UAE? That we have an air base there? Or many? (I can get the particulars, if you need them. But you’ll have to wait until May, when my s-i-l returns from there.)
I think it’s been proven over and over, that the U.S. will do whatever it (the government) feels necessary to get what they want. They want a place to refuel and repair? UAE and others fit the bill. We arm one side, arm the other, then pretend we’re surprised when the shooting starts. We “sell” them things. Or, put an even better way, we buy those countries.
This is what comes from being the #1 World Power. We get away with it. Most administrations do. Take Reagan, for instance, and the Ollie North mess, and… Well, you get the idea. History only repeats itself, no matter what party is in power. Doesn’t mean it’s right, just means it IS.
Taz, are you crying because you looked in the mirror?
RD,
From your earlier post.
“**WASHINGTON – A study by two nonprofit journalism organizations found that President Bush and top administration officials issued hundreds of false statements about the national security threat from Iraq in the two years following the 2001 terrorist attacks.’
—————————-
This is more of the same. As you said, both sides were complicit in outlining reasons to invade Iraq. The videos I provided show undeniable truth that the same people on the Democratic side of the house made similar states before Bush took office and after he took office.
To put up a scam study of revisionist history serves no purpose other than to encourage rancor.
RD,
You basically spent several paragraphs describing what the left is always crying for…
DIPLOMACY
Yep, the US will use DIPLOMACY, to help protect our interests worldwide.
Imagine that.
Nathan,
I don’t consider “dipomacy” and “buying off” (bribery?) as synonymous. Maybe in your world, but not mine. It creates a terrible mess. Always has, always will. Unfortunately, I don’t see that changing.
As always, you and I will disagree. :) But that’s what makes life interesting, isn’t it?
RD,
So let me see here, when we want something from another country and pay them for what we want, that is not diplomacy, rather bribery?
Bribery is the act of giving money to gain an ILLICIT advantage.
Illicit basically means that something is illegal or wrong.
We might not see eye to eye on the issue, but that doesn’t mean you are correct in characterizing the action as something which is wrong or illegal by saying it is bribary.
bribery ( spelling error )
Nathan,
Perhaps you missed the (?)? But go ahead, pick at every single word (and I wouldn’t have pointed out your misspelling, honest) and we do nothing more than spin our wheels and yammer at each other. Not my cup of tea tonight.
Y’all have a good night! (All y’all, of course.)
Good night or Good Morning… LOL
Regular posted January 22, 2008 at 9:02 pm
“By the way Taz, if you haven’t registered you might want to do so before 31 January or you might not be able to post here or anywhere on the Wichita Eagle.”
Why would I want to register to a blog that also allows someone like JimmyMac to register?
Cosmos,
I would assume you would regester so you could continue to cut and paste on Global Warming.
That is what Al Gore is paying you to do isn’t it?
Nathan posted January 23, 2008 at 1:11 am
“Cosmos,
I would assume you would regester so you could continue to cut and paste on Global Warming.
That is what Al Gore is paying you to do isn’t it?
Dear Nathan,
Your father seems to have stopped doing his daily copy/pastes from the “400″ list compiled by Rush Limbaugh’s ex-producer and ex-reporter?
Why?
Hank Price posted January 20, 2008 at 1:53 pm
“I highly respect Ben and I take every thing he posts relating to science very seriously.”
I replied:
Good! Ernst-Georg Beck is on Hank Price’s “400″ list.
When Hank copy/pastes Beck, I’ll just repost Ben’s post.
Ben posted April 16, 2007 at 1:13 pm
http://blogs.kansas.com/weblog/2007/04/is_there_a_carb/#comment-253684
“Beck – that explains a lot. I have read his stuff – very bogus. Taking samples downwind from power plants etc.”
(Note my post, 2 posts earlier.)
Nathan posted January 23, 2008 at 1:11 am
“I would assume you would regester(spelling error)…”
For Hank, and Nathan. Who are two more reasons why I would not register at this blog.
http://blogs.kansas.com/weblog/2008/01/open-thread-118/#comment-277112
Cosmos,
If you don’t want to register, don’t.
Dear Nathan,
Why would I want to register at this blog, where people like your father have zero respect for me?
Hank Price posted January 17, 2008 at 10:00 am
http://blogs.kansas.com/weblog/2008/01/open-thread-117/#comment-276056
“Sometimes I’m a little embarrassed about picking on cosmos like I do. What if it turns out that he is a prepubescent sixth grader crouched in his mommy’s basement as he cut and pastes his responses from the political left-wing web sites that he uses as his responses?”
Nathan… my posts, your posts, Hank’s posts, JimmyMac’s posts, etc are all in the archives. The future can easily judge me, and all of you.
BTW: I got the impression that Ben considers RealClimate.org a credible climate science website.
You, and your father should try to prove me wrong.
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