WE Blog

I see Sunflower has come out against a possible state law against illegals. They have disrupted capitol business, shown zero respect for our lawmakers, and have no credibility in Topeka. So, this announcement of theirs will probably help the bill pass. Thanks, rabble.

Welcome to the start of the Great Depression version 2.008. Not too late to start planning your victory garden you may need it.

LONDON (MarketWatch) — After the heavy losses nursed by Asian and European stock markets, U.S. stock futures are pointing to huge losses when markets re-open on Tuesday. Futures on the Dow Jones Industrial Average dropped 476 points, the S&P 500 futures contract fell 62 points and the Nasdaq 100 futures contract declined 81 points. End of Story

Forgot the link :)

http://img139.imageshack.us/img139/297/mlkxg7.jpg

Test

thanks Sol,

Great photo isn’t it?

Not sure when that was taken. Looks like it might have been before the Voting Rights act bill was signed where MLK was in attendance. Don’t know…

Looks like those vets are calling themselves murderers… not CapN

Yuck. The stink of CapnAmerica’s anti-U.S. military propaganda makes me wanna throw up. Shame.

Chas–

I’m doing my level best not to respond to Regular of the many nics.

LOL Max, that video on Congress was great! :D

Outlander, you would seem to be one of those that MLK was preaching about >>

Now, of course, one of the difficulties in speaking out today grows the fact that there are those who are seeking to equate dissent with disloyalty.

Speaking out is one thing, Chas. Promotion of lies, another.

Here we go again…

All those who think Obama is NOT a homophobe please explain his facination with the ex gay fanatics. Bad enough with McCloset McClurkin, but Obama’s doing it AGAIN.

And this time, he’s hooking up with Bush’s “spiritual advisor” (that oughta send chills up yer spine) who HEAD UP one of these hateful groups.

The comments here are long, but should give you some idea how comfortable Obama feels with letting other folks pander to the gay haters…

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132×4133344

Explaining it away the FIRST time was bad enough, but doing it twice? No mistake there.

Outlander — Who is promoting lies? I saw statements made by Veterans of the Iraq war. Are you saying they are lying? If not, who is promoting lies?

Max

Isn’t amazing that people keep re-electing those folks — and therein lies the problem, seems everyone thinks it’s the other guys fault, not the guy I elected ….. incumbents are re-elected what 80% of the time?

Right to organize; but no special benefits for unions
Q: Are unions good for America?
A: The right to unionize should be a basic right of any group. You should be able to organize. You should have no privileges, no special benefits legislated to benefit the unions, but you should never deny any working group to organize and negotiate for the best set of standards of working conditions.

Source: 2007 Republican debate in Dearborn, Michigan Oct 9, 2007

And I’ve never once seen a lib pounce on a GOP candidate. Strange, that.

THE CHICKEN BUSINESS

John the farmer was in the fertilized egg
business. He had several hundred young layers (hens), called “pullets,” and ten roosters, whose job it was to fertilize the eggs.

The farmer kept records and any rooster that didn’t perform went into the soup pot and was replaced. That took an awful lot of his time, so he bought a set of tiny bells and attached them to his roosters.

Each bell had a different tone so John
could tell from a distance, which rooster was
performing. Now he could sit on the porch and fill out an efficiency report simply by listening to the bells.

The farmer’s favorite rooster was old Butch, a
very fine specimen he was, too. But on this
particular morning John noticed old Butch’s bell hadn’t rung at all! John went to investigate.

The other roosters were chasing pullets,
bells-a-ringing. The pullets, hearing the roosters coming, would run for cover.

But to Farmer John’s amazement, old Butch had his bell in his beak, so it couldn’t ring. He’d sneak up on a pullet, do his job and walk on to the next one.

John was so proud of old Butch, he entered
him in the Renfrew County Fair and he became an overnight sensation among the judges.

The result…The judges not only awarded old
Butch the “No Bell Piece Prize,” but they also
awarded him the “Pulletsurprise” as well.

Clearly old Butch was a politician in the
making: who else but a politician could figure out how to win two of the most highly coveted awards on our planet by being the best at sneaking up on the populace and screwing them when they weren’t paying
attention.

Vote carefully…the bells are not always
audible!

Dow Jones Industrial Average futures down nearly 500 points
By Steve Goldstein
Last update: 7:14 a.m. EST Jan. 21, 2008
LONDON (MarketWatch) — After the heavy losses nursed by Asian and European stock markets, U.S. stock futures are pointing to huge losses when markets re-open on Tuesday. Futures on the Dow Jones Industrial Average dropped 476 points, the S&P 500 futures contract fell 62 points and the Nasdaq 100 futures contract declined 81 points.
Related MarketWatch news
Shares in London near 18-month lows as bank shares slide
Financials in freefall; Societe Generale, BNP hammered
How a French banker’s comments helped derail global stocks

(What’s an investor to do? Might as well have a cup of coffee and enjoy some jokes today. It’s that or cry.)

AmWAy, check your stuff out before you post.

http://www.snopes.com/politics/humor/roswell.asp

Your story about Roswell is FALSE.

Nathan — Maybe you should talk to those Veterans that were named in that above article… If they are lying, then they need to stop. But, if they arent lying… Then there is a huge problem with some of our troops. It wouldnt be the first time that some of our troops got their heads screwed up in time of battle.

The banking industry is trying to eliminate the tax exempt status of Credit Unions, contact your state legislature and oppose the change. Banks have too much clout the way it is!

“What if The People quit taking sides.”

Max, I’ve posted this before but you reinforce my prior comments.

The politicians are successful by keeping America divided. By keeping us as the RED and BLUE, and constantly accusing the other side of wrong-doing and evil, they keep us all too occupied rallying for our “team” that we no longer look at the individual politician and their records.

It is not a party which make American great. It is the individual.

But as long as we are like opposing football fans, we don’t focus on the stats of the individual players. Heck, our guys can be guilty of pass interference, unsportsman like conduct, off sides, etc… but we do not care – as long as our team is winning…..

Yet we are quick to claim fouls by the otherside, and get mad at the Ref, if he doesn’t call em our way.

So much so, we will sink the nation before realizing we are all one team.

AmWay — They wont jump out of buildings today… Stock Market is closed… Maybe tomorrow!!

Nathan,

You seem to be saying that they are “liars”, if they did not “report [the war crimes] and refuse to follow orders”.

Logic says that they were honest, but failed to “report [the war crimes] and refuse to follow orders.

Well, Nathan, if you weren’t there then you can’t actually say what happened on any given patrol.

Hope that is true, but have the polls been right anywhere yet?

AmWay — I’m home too, in honor of MLK… Also gonna watch some good NBA basketball later!!

Have a good honorable holiday!!

There’s Rules of War, and then there is the Reality of War.

Good way to celebrate MLK day, watch the NBA!

Any white boys playing today?

Wow — We’ve had the race card; the gender card; the “God” card; and now, Chuck Norris plays the “Elder” Card in the Pres. Race… It just keeps getting curiouser and curiouser…

Now Chas, if I was watching the NBA and there were all white men playing, and I asked if there were any black players, would that be racist too?

Yep

Poor persecuted white folks.

Poor persecuted christians.

Poor persecuted MAJORITIES.

hehehehehehhe.

Want a little cheese to go with that whine?

Watching GOP fascist bigots like Max trying to necrophilize Dr. King’s earthly remains is as predictable as it is pathetic.

Dr. King spent his life calling out pro-war cretins like you, Max. Here’s a taste.

**************************************************

http://www.aavw.org/special_features/speeches_speech_king03.html

“Now what are some of the domestic consequences of the war in Vietnam? It has made the Great Society a myth and replaced it with a troubled and confused society. The war has strengthened domestic reaction. It has given the extreme right, the anti-labor, anti-Negro, and anti-humanistic forces a weapon of spurious patriotism to galvanize its supporters into reaching for power, right up to the White House. It hopes to use national frustration to take control and restore the America of social insecurity and power for the privileged. When a Hollywood performer, lacking distinction even as an actor can become a leading war hawk candidate for the Presidency, only the irrationalities induced by a war psychosis can explain such a melancholy turn of events. [Applause]

The war in Vietnam has produced a shameful order of priorities in which the decay, squalor and pollution of the cities are neglected. And even though 70% of our population now live in them the war has smothered, and nearly extinguished the beginnings of progress toward racial justice. The war has created the bizarre spectacle of armed forces of the United States fighting in ghetto streets in America while they are fighting in jungles in Asia. The war has so increased Negro frustration and despair that urban outbreaks are now an ugly feature of the American scene. How can the Administration, with quivering anger, denounce the violence of ghetto Negroes when it has given an example of violence in Asia that shocks the world. [Applause]”

**************************************************

The Iraq war economy or a just society: can’t have both. MLK said it, and that’s why he was killed.

By militarists like you, Max.

We just keep sending the same boys over there again and again. They go over for 2 years, come back for 6 months maybe a year then right back over. At least we only made Viet Nam vets stay over a year. Two of my friends’ brothers are/were in Special Forces over there, now one is completely certifiable (he calls everyone in his family, “soldier”) and the other one must be nuts because he went to work for those truly un-American pieces of crap, Blackwater.

Hey CF2K. Happy MLK day to you and yours!

OK CFUK,

You agree with some of what MLK said but not all.

Ok.

I agree with his statements against Abortion and for the Children, but you Lib Baby Killers want to ignore those statements by MLK.

Just embellish whichever quotes you like then, and forget the rest of what MLK stood for.

Then keep posting garbage.

I’m sure there’s nothing else in your head.

Dear Hank Price,

Your favorite website, run by Rush Limbaugh’s ex-reporter and ex-producer, got a golden mouse award.

‘In Praise of High Class Climate Deception’
http://www.desmogblog.com/in-praise-of-high-class-climate-deception
“It is chilling to think that our high regard for style and substance, for tactic and technique, now completely overwhelms our desire to hear the truth. It’s an outrage that the National Science Foundation would be hiring a “non-partisan” group that is, itself, indifferent to science.

But it sure makes it clear why confusion still reigns on the climate file. We just don’t care about the truth; we just want to admire and reward the best storytellers, regardless of whether their stories will lead us further into the greatest environmental calamity in history.”

Rabbett (link at above page) has some other good points about Inhofe’s site.

.. or if the republican congress had not passed it?

It appears Bush’s diplomatic efforts are about to pay off:

“A draft UN Security Council resolution seeking fresh sanctions against Iran over its nuclear programme is imminent, a French diplomat has said.
Foreign ministers of the five permanent Security Council members – the US, UK, France, China and Russia – plus Germany, meet in Berlin on Tuesday.”
BBC

Maybe Clinton II will bring back Welfare too.

You know, Clinton I reformed Welfare to the point where there was no longer any poverty in America.

In the 1990’s dontcha know, the Poverty Rate was Zero.

And EVERYONE had Healthcare too, and for free!

Vaughn Tolle
“NAFTA likely accelerated the trend, but didn’t start it.”

No arguement from me on that Vaughn. NAFTA helped American manufacturers move the high labor cost jobs overseas. The steel industry is a great example. It’s all made overseas now. Why? We have plenty of coal and iron ore. What changed?

Logic says that they were honest, but failed to “report [the war crimes] and refuse to follow orders.”

Military members are only required to follow lawful orders. Shooting unarmed civilians is not a lawful order.

Once the soldiers got back to their base camp, they should have reported the incident or sent in a request to see the Inspector General.

They could have course have written their Congressman as well.

To wait and “sell” their story to media and become media cupie dolls says more about their questionable character for being “glory hogs” than it does anything else.

This is what Kerry did in Winter soldiers. Kerry lied about what he saw and what other saw. Funny thing he was never called back on it and asked why he lied before Congress.

“Clinton had not championed NAFTA?”

NAFTA was championed by George Herbert Walker Bush, it was ratified under Clinton.

If you are going to blame Clinton, you must also blame Papa Bush.

And if you do, the Republicans will kick you out of the parade.

Seems I recall, WS, that Pres. Clinton was at best lukewarm towards NAFTA, but as the treaty had been negotiated during President George H.W. Bush’s term, felt he had an obligation to submit it to the Congress for a ratification vote. It was ratified, and we are where we are.

Clark, all parties know we are in trouble with our borrowing. Don’t make this republican versus democrat. There were still over 11,000 earmarks by the democrat congress worth over 20 billion (count them) dollars.

Vaughn I’m surprised at you. For you to attempt to lessen the fact that Clinton SIGNED the NAFTA into law, against his will – changes no facts. Not like you.

The state of the US economy is very important to many of Europe’s and Asia’s biggest companies as it is one of their biggest export markets.

Any slowdown in demand is likely to hurt corporate profit growth, and push share prices even lower, analysts warned.

“It’s becoming more and more difficult as the market is now in panic mode,” said Hugues Rialan of Robeco France.

“We’re falling back into the crisis of confidence in the financial sector.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/7199552.stm

(We could see the DOW drop below 10,000 tomorrow.
Should Bush and Pelosi print up some more FREE MONEY?)

Vaughn — I agree ith your assessment.

Ross Perot – “Urging voters to listen for the “giant sucking sound” of American jobs heading south to Mexico should NAFTA be ratified.”

Boy do I miss those charts Ross Perot used to put up and discuss. :D

American Way
Posted January 21, 2008 at 12:06 pm | Permalink
“I wonder if we would still have good manufacturing jobs, less unemployment, products going overseas instead of jobs if Clinton had not championed NAFTA?”

AmWay — Did you post this, or were you trolled?

AmericanWay, missed that originally. Looks like you and I share concerns over that issue, as well as the “stimulus” plan as well.

Now, is a reduction in the per share price of the stock in any number of publicly traded corporations a bad thing? Yes, if one holds the same (or if one’s insurance company, pension plan, 401(k) plan holds such shares); no, if one thinks as do I that most stock is overvalued, given the fundamentals and the pressures of increasing energy costs, the increasing costs of providing medical insurance to employees, etc.

But… Amway… You DID say that Clinton “championed” NAFTA… which just didnt happen!! Thats why I asked if you were trolled, in light of your further comments…

” per share price of the stock”

Vaughn that is the question I am evaluating today!
See my buy low sell high above?

There are many negative factors in todays situation which I am not sure were entirely present in previous recessions. We can debate them, and probably should (like Citibank borrowing billions from overseas).

The question for all investors who are in for the long term (10 years, IMHO) is, “Do you believe this a normal part of the market cycle and therefore believe we will recover normally cyclically (sp)?”

Or, “Do you believe there are signs that this is not just a normal event, and is triggered by Americans being over-extended, over indebt?”

If your retirement horizon is less than ten years, then you should be worried. If you are fully invested in aggressive* equities/funds and you have less than five years – you should be taking immediate action to protect your nest egg.

* and I am not at all confident that any investment vehicle is safe. For instance, CD’s with locked in rates/time may be drawing 5%. But what does that mean when the dollar is worthless?

Vaughn, I think the description of dollar cost averaging would better describe what we are talking about?

I forgot to mention for JR that the souplines of the 40’s will be back so we won’t starve but don’t look for the free healthcare. When no one is working the tax receipts go down. You know when you really hack off those worker bees.

“Well Clark, why didn’t Clinton “do something” during his time in office? He should not have had to leave it for the next president.”

He did, it is only a Republican talking point that he did not.

Remember, you Republicans accused him of “wagging the dog” when he did do something.

Of course, you Republicans also spent $70 million to find out that he had gotten a little head in the White House.

“To bad the dems can’t follow this cronology.”

Democrats do understand that we have not had a balanced budget under a Republican administration since Ike, we have $9 trillion in debt, there is no forecast for a balanced budget until at least 2012 and there is no money is the coffers for SS and Medicare.

Of course the economy improves when you cut taxes and spend money you don’t have – if I had unlimited borrowing power I could live like a King.

I don’t and the US shouldn’t act as if it does.

Sooner or later, the bills have to be paid.

Vaughn, I remember getting a free “boom box” with the purchase of our first CD. :-)

I am trying to stay out of the panic mode, but the more negatives we get from our leaders (both sides)and some of the inflationary proposals are not giving me that warm fuzzy. It is tough watching the value of our retirment portfolio bleed away, and not have some concern.

I want to believe the glass is half full. But the more I learn and my own personal beliefs on spending, the trade-deficit, and world economy do not provide reassurance. Looking at P/E’s over the last few years – I don’t believe most stock is overvalued. I think the market correction/recession which began under Clinton and accelerated under Bush in 2001, brought prices in line with value. On paper, stocks are a good buy. But the overall economy is in deep trouble and I am trying to review the stats/numbers myself to evaluate if this is a normal “slump” or not.

You are correct, for many, it is better to just ride it out. Not saying to not keep up on evaluating different sectors of the portfolio. But if your retirement horizon is less than five years. Well, I feel sorry for them, and hope I’m wrong.

ksfarmgrrl, perhaps not a part of the innovation economy. Maybe there is a realization that tourism isn’t ever going to be a major part of this state’s economy, and that the money which has been spent on this issue is basically “good money after bad”.

I’ve thought Ben has, in the past, made sense with a shift in the tourism expenditures; rather than “Kansas; as big as you think”, the $$ might better be spent on agritourism, if that’s the right term, complete with owners of appropriate real estate establishing weekend hunting expeditions on their land to attract the out of state folks who want to have this kind of experience.

Sol, Dr. Paul has to translate the “average Joe’s” contributions into votes. To my eyes, that is yet to happen. Maybe it will happen, but color me dubious.

VT,

If you really think about it, with him getting so much grass roots support in cash, his are the larger and most active supporters, does it not seem odd that he is not getting more votes?

There is already admitted voter fraud in New Hampshire against Dr. Paul.

Why is it that in New Hampshire, 20% of the population can turn out, vote, have the votes counted and posted all in one day. But to re-count them, they need 2 weeks? Pass the logic test?

And whom is going to recount the votes? The same folks that have already admitted being fraudulent.

Things that make you say hmmmmmmmmmmmm.

” but Vaughan said he doubted that it could be affecting other glaciers in western Antarctica, which have also thinned in recent years”

So, even if the old volcano is part of the melting on ONE glacier it is irrelevant to the others.

VT, I actually agree with you.

In a desperate attempt to boost rural communities without addressing the core problems, tourism has become a convenient way to give false hope. Better that REAL issues with REAL solutions be addressed, but as long as the folks in rural areas think tourism will save them, it is hard to get them to focus on issues with real possibility.

I dont think the hunting industry out here or in any rural area needs any artificial stimulus. It is booming all over, with no signs of abatement as wild areas and hunting ground become harder and harder to find. I dont really have a problem with that either, other than the fact that hunting is part of an “extraction” economy, which has led to lots of the problems out here, such as water mining, soil depletion, etc. HARDLY an “innovation economy” by anyone’s standards. It is part of a resource based economy, and a dwindling one at that.

What I really wanted to point out is that governor leadership is at odds with her own task force, and her own words about economic development. And cutting tourism is a drop in the bucket in the overall budget fight.

But lots of rural communities are highly invested in potential tourism, as silly as that may seem. Many of those communities are out west, where neufeld and company are WHINING about economic development. Hence my curiosity about where he will fall.

Will he bow to the will of the little towns out here betting on the false promise of tourism? Will he admit the truth about tourism out here? Will his budget cutting jones outweigh his economic development jones?

And still, no one can tell me what sebelius meant by an “innovation economy”.

Or how that will help western Kansas. Truth be told, while I applaud the decision about coal in western Kansas, NO ONE is offering any real solutions for the west. Just more “extraction” and water mining. I guess the raid is on to rob the corpse. Even before the heart stops beating.

So many questions. So few reasonable answers…

ksfarmgrrl, got it. I agree; what is the “innovation economy”? Isn’t the tourism thing another example of an “extraction economy”, with the extraction occurring from the tourists’ wallets, of course?

Looking at Western Kansas, I’ve not seen any real, rational suggestions at any solutions. Neufeld doesn’t have anything to offer, as nearly as I can ascertain, other than continuation and expansion of the “same old thing” which isn’t working, and is, IMHO, actually hurting.

If I had the answer, I’d let the powers that be know (privately, of course), and like the private practitioner I am, go with the highest bidder. :-)

“Under the plan the two sides are discussing privately, according to officials speaking on the condition of anonymity, the 10 percent income tax bracket would be reduced to zero for one year, meaning single workers would not pay tax on the first $8,025 of taxable income, nor would a married couple pay anything on the first $16,050. That would save them $800 and $1,600, respectively. The money would be sent to taxpayers right away in the form of rebate checks.

A sticking point is what would happen to workers who file but make too little to pay income taxes. Treasury Secretary Henry M. Paulson said Bush wants “broad-based tax relief for those who are paying taxes,” implying that those who do not would receive no benefits. About 50 million workers make too little to pay income taxes, although they do pay Social Security and Medicare taxes. The Center on Budget and Policy Priorities estimated that a family of four making less than $24,900 would get nothing under such a formula.”
Washington Post

I don’t need a tax rebate. If I get $1,600 dollars, I will not plow them into the economy with purchaes. Instead, I will invest the dollars for my future. This may help make cash available to companies, but it won’t sell their products.

And I wonder if this approach is going to the individuals more likely to spend the money: Those making the least? The poor are more likely to spend the money for immediate consumption. Maybe Americans should use it pay down their average credit card debt (6,000+ dollars on average).

Democrats will argue to redistribute the money to those not paying any taxes, and make it a direct redistribution of wealth. And maybe as I said these poor people, who don’t save, who do not invest, and who qualify for sub-prime loans are the ones who will give an immediate boast to the economy. But as I’ve said, this quick fix will only add to long term debt which is what is getting us in trouble in the first place.

Republicans will argue to give the money back to those who paid it (the middle class and rich). But again, not sure this will provide the boast the economy needs. I will gladly accept the check, but will realize that like in 2001, that check is added to the AGI on my NEXT year tax form.

Lot’s of information and yet details are still to be worked out.

If you can’t stop spending, and you cannot increase revenue any measure taken will not help long term.

Amway,

America doesn’t need to manufacture anything.

We have Casinos!

WSClark
Posted January 21, 2008 at 1:01 pm | Permalink
“Well Clark, why didn’t Clinton “do something” during his time in office? He should not have had to leave it for the next president.”

He did, it is only a Republican talking point that he did not.

Remember, you Republicans accused him of “wagging the dog” when he did do something.
————————————————-

Something? What exactly?

Max,

Don’t you remember? Clinton bombed an aspirin factory in Sudan, killing many poor people.

He also blew up an outhouse in the mountains of Afghanistan with expensive cruise missles.

Clinton – $1 trillion.

Bush $4 trillion and counting.

We all lose.

Exactly my point Sol.
And you get Ron Paul on the ballot, and I’ll vote for him.

AmWay

http://www.ronpaul2008.com/states/kansas/

A change of pace.

As I’ve bored you before, the youngest attends Colby College, located in Waterville, ME, a prestigious private liberal arts school.

On Saturday, the Trustees of Colby voted to replace all student loans in financial aid packages for admitted students with grants, beginning in Fall, 2008. The stated reason for this was to improve accessibility to higher education, and to make the same more affordable.

It seems to me that this is an opening shot in the attempt by institutions of higher education to attract the students that are desired by all such institutions. While this action comes too late to help our family, I wanted to alert those with younger students that things are beginning to change, and that the options available to students for higher education might be widening.

http://www.colby.edu/news_events/press_release/grantinitiative.cfm

VT,
Where is te grant money coming from?

Sol, the grant money is coming from the endowment, as I understand it. Colby has a big fundraising drive on right now to increase its endowment from its present (as of June 30, 2007) value of slightly over $500 million to around $800 million. The Trustees estimate the cost to the school for this change at $1 million/year.

1. Cover up
2. Blame faulty intelligence
3. Incite the islamic world against the USA

Sound familiar?

The Clinton administration will not challenge a lawsuit filed by a Saudi businessman who said the bombing last year of his pharmaceutical plant in Sudan was a “mistake” based on faulty intelligence data.
The administration also agreed to release $24 million in assets that the businessman, Saleh Idris, had deposited in U.S. banks
The fact that both of the countries targeted by Mr. Clinton are run by radical Islamic regimes meant that there was already a special fallout danger that could be expected among Islamic co-religionists worldwide. That danger was greatly exacerbated by the obvious failure of Team Clinton to justify its target selection, especially in Sudan, where the destruction of the Al-Shifa plant took out a major source of medical supplies badly needed by the civilian population. This provided glorious grist for the anti-U.S. propaganda mills.
Even worse, from an Islamic perspective, are the charges by survivors of the Afghan camps that the U.S. missiles destroyed two mosques. Photos purporting to show the two pulverized buildings littered with singed fragments of the Koran have been circulating in the Muslim world press, inciting ever greater anti-American fervor.
That President Clinton’s administration fabricated lies to cover up the fiasco, the August 20th “strike against terrorism” has turned out to be a series of lies built upon lies.
http://www.mega.nu:8080/ampp/khartoumbomb.html

VT,
Outstanding. The community is providing for their own. No government handouts, just – Joes – (can’t call them regular in this case ;-) )

Chas,

Do a google search on Clinton administration statements about the bombing of Sudan.

Ditto, the islamic outrage at the Afghan attack.

Look up equipment denied by Clinton in Somolia.

Many links. Not just one source. Newspapers only need two sources to confirm.

White house statements are not good enough for you?

“For years, the Rangers and Delta Force soldiers who fought the Battle of Mogadishu on Oct. 3, 1993, had a serious beef. Until the publication of Mark Bowden’s 1999 book, Black Hawk Down , their daylight raid was widely perceived as a failure even in strict military terms. But the Rangers in fact succeeded in snatching and imprisoning the two Somali clan officials they were after. Had you known that? I hadn’t. Like everyone else, I mainly remembered seeing the body of a dead American being dragged through the streets.”

http://www.slate.com/?id=2060941

Despite the Republican spin machine and the hordes of Clinton Haters, the Rangers accomplished their goals.

Unlike you, AmWay, I actually post factual links.

This stuff is basic History Chas.

Bush sent in over 20,000 troops to restore order and peace.

Clinton reduced the numbers to 4,000 and declared it a “successful mission.”

Some forces were left to try to maintain order in Mogadishu and hunt for warlords.

When they requested heavier tanks, armored carriers, and AC 130 gunships, Aspin under Clinton denied those things.

Of course Clinton denied having any part in that decision and shortly after Aspin resigned for “personal reasons.”

WS Clark,

You don’t have to agree with my conlusion, it was your facts I was talking about:

“And just why the Hell did GHWB send them to Somalia in the first place without equipment.”

“This is just a damn slam on Bill Clinton while giving GHWB as freakin’ pass.”

Does that refresh your memory?

VT
It is really awesome and hopefully a trend amongst universities. Our kids are falling behind the rest of the world. The grass roots approach is particularly uplifting.

Sol, that is true, on both accounts. From what I read, there are sufficient Colby alumni of “means” to make this work. Now, Harvard, with its endowment of over $35 billion, could likely give “free rides” to all its students just using a part of the income, but it rightfully has chosen to not do so. I say this because I truly believe that a student who is a stakeholder in his/her education (directly or indirectly) values the same more than one who gets it “free”.

As I earlier posted, I believe these actions are just some of the opening salvos in this area. It will be interesting to follow this as the years progress.

Sol, They have to first meet the college’s entrance requirements. Neither Colby nor Harvard are going to lower those. But for our brightest, they should receive a top-notch education without the crushing debt after graduation. We all benefit!

“Clark, take Clinton off the high and mighty pedestal you have him on. Nobody is perfect.”

I do not put Bill Clinton on a pedestal, period. He is far from my favorite president. As many have said, he was the best Republican president ever.

My argument is with the Republicans = good, Democrats = evil mentality.

Most Republicans don’t even know that it was GHWB that sent the troops to Somalia in the first place.

Clinton has admitted his error in reducing forces in Somalia, his thinking at the time was that the mission was complete.

We obviously cannot afford to maintain a sizable force in every country that we consider to be an issue.

It is ironic that the Right screams about the lose of eighteen men in degrading fashion in Somalia under Clinton’s watch, but they are just fine with the lose of 243 Marines in Lebanon under Reagan.

It is that type of hypocrisy that causes me to make statements like……………..

“Never trust a Republican further than you can throw him.”

And when did I call you a liar, AmWay?

Copy and paste, please.

Lose = loss…………………

Bad typing day.

“A little while ago, you posted that Clinton was not responsible for 911 because he TOLD Bush about it. Therefore we should blame Bush entirely.”

I never posted that, either, AmWay. Period.

I posted that Clinton had warned Bush about al Qaeda and that Bush had done nothing about it.

Remember the NIE from August 2001 that said bin Laden was determined to attack inside the US?

What did George do about it?

Clark you are so blinded by your loyalty to your team you have not read and understood what I have tried posting throughout the day.

My argument is with the Republicans = good, Democrats = evil mentality.

Don’t you see some of us see eactly the opposite posted here all day and every day?

The Republicans = evil, Democrats = good

So you post, “RA-RA Blue!” I post “RA-RA Red!”.
You post, “Bush is evil and did it, Clinton didn’t.” I post, “But Clinton did it first.”
and we all go downhill from there.

My lost point was both partieswant us to think this way. It will not end unless I take off my red jersey and you your blue.

Tough to do.

“Clark you are so blinded by your loyalty to your team”

Wrong – because I can’t stand Bush doesn’t mean that I am blindly loyal to the Democrats.

Just an example – I think the McCain – Kennedy Amnesty for Illegals Bill is one giant crock of shit.

And Nathan……….

“What did Clinton do about it when Bin Laden did attack the US in the 1993 bombing of the World Trade Center?”

I already posted the answer before you asked the question – try to pay attention – to quote you.

What did George do about the NIE?

Oh, that’s right, Bush doesn’t believe the NIE’s – he only believes his gut.

Ron Paul is at $2.5 million for this quarter. $1.14 million raised today alone.

WS Clark,

Since you claim that homosexuals were born that way, shouldn’t the military simply be able to test their brainwaves and genetic history to determine if the person is really gay or not?

“test their brainwaves and genetic history to determine if the person is really gay or not?”

Genetic history and brainwaves has nothing to do with it.

For rather obvious reasons – obvious to most at least – homosexuality is not inherited.

Since you think that being homosexual is a choice, Nathan, how could the military reject someones claim that they were gay?

What if 90% of those drafted claimed that they were gay?

WS Clark,

What if 90% of the people drafted claimed they were Conscientious objectors?

Seems like that would be easier than claiming to be gay and less embarassing too.

“This is like arguing science with a 10 year old who still thinks that the earth is flat and the sun revolves around the earth”

Nathan–

It is possible, but difficult to claim CO status.

To do that, you have show that you are against all war, all the time. Even the Mennonites and Amish, who really are against all war, all the time, have a hard time convincing judges.

If you just object to a war like Iraq or Vietnam, but not war in general, you can’t be a CO.

American Way writes–
Don’t you remember? Clinton bombed an aspirin factory in Sudan, killing many poor people.

Proving once again that nothing is as immortal as a right-wing lie.

That “asprin factory” had traces of VX gas chemicals in the soil surrounding it.

That’s a helluva lot more hard evidence than Bush had for his invasion of Iraq to stop us from getting attacked with “tons and tons” of weapons of mass destruction, enough to create a mushroom cloud over an American city–all of which proved completely fictional.

Capn’ – everybody KNOWS that Saddam moved those tons and tons of WMD to Syria, right under our noses.

Of course, Saddam couldn’t even defeat Iran in ten years WITH WMD, but who’s counting?

Ben posted January 21, 2008 at 4:19 pm

“This is like arguing science with a 10 year old who still thinks that the earth is flat and the sun revolves around the earth”

I wonder how many “adults” are completely fooled by bogus climate non-science, like E.G. Beck’s ridiculous CO2 claims?

“What if 90% of the people drafted claimed they were Conscientious objectors?” {Nathan}

Nice try at side-stepping… The question was — What would they do if 90% claimed to be gay?

But Nathan doesnt want to answer that question, so he turns the entire thing around to Conscientious Objectors… Amazing how some folks just cant stay on point!! LOL

My my, if it wasn’t for Bush, the haters would have anything to talk about.

Must be sad to be hating and aggressively skeptical about everything in life.

Ahh yes, but of couse

* one of the first things that Richard Clarke noted about Al-Qaeda was it was a totally different mind set from other terrorist organization that we have faced in the past.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/22690103/

The following is an excerpt from “New portrait of Iraq’s foreign fighters emerges”

Al-Qaeda’s holidays, salary grades
Al-Qaeda has a track record of good documentation, he said, adding that “Osama bin Laden was a businessman before he was a terrorist.”
Fishman offered an example from among the many captured al-Qaeda documents in the center’s database — an employment contract between the group and terrorist recruits in Afghanistan in the late 1990s. In addition to a definition of the organization, religious duties and a loyalty pledge, it includes a list of official “company” holidays and salary grades.
Married fighters were to be allotted time off every three weeks and round-trip tickets to their country of origin every two years, although al-Qaeda retained the right to deny vacation dates “in certain cases.” Vacation requests were to be submitted 2 1/2 months in advance. Married fighters received higher salaries than bachelors — including a bonus for every newborn — but unmarried fighters were entitled to more vacation time.
The extent of al-Qaeda in Iraq’s ties to the wider al-Qaeda network has long been a subject of debate within the U.S. intelligence community and military. Although its membership is overwhelmingly Iraqi, it has been led by foreigners with direct ties to al-Qaeda central, which has been based in Pakistan since being driven from Afghanistan in 2001

Okay, one more time…

Clinton Admin’s Record on Terrorism

Clinton Administration developed the nation’s first anti-terrorism policy, and appointed first national coordinator of anti-terrorist efforts.

Clinton Administration stopped the Al Qaeda millennium hijacking and bombing plots.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2000_millennium_attack_plots

Clinton Administration stopped the planned attack to kill the Pope
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oplan_Bojinka

Clinton Administration stopped the planned attack to blow up 12 U.S. jetliners simultaneously
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oplan_Bojinka

Clinton Administration stopped the planned attack to blow up UN Headquarters

Clinton Administration stopped the planned attack to blow up FBI Headquarters

Clinton Administration stopped the planned attack to blow up the Israeli Embassy in Washington

Clinton Administration stopped the planned attack to blow up Boston airport

Clinton Administration stopped the planned attack to blow up Lincoln and Holland Tunnels in NY

Clinton Administration stopped the planned attack to blow up the George Washington Bridge

Clinton Administration stopped the planned attack to blow up the US Embassy in Albania

– Tried to kill Osama bin Laden and disrupt Al Qaeda through preemptive strikes (efforts denounced by the G.O.P.).
http://www.snopes.com/rumors/clinton.htm

– Brought perpetrators of first World Trade Center bombing and CIA killings to justice.
http://www.snopes.com/rumors/clinton.htm

– Did not blame Bush I administration for first World Trade Center bombing even though it occurred 38 days after Bush left office. Instead, worked hard, even obsessively — and successfully — to stop future terrorist attacks.
http://www.snopes.com/rumors/clinton.htm

–Named the Hart-Rudman commission to report on nature of terrorist threats and major steps to be taken to combat terrorism.

-Clinton Administration sent legislation to Congress to TIGHTEN AIRPORT SECURITY. (Remember, this is before 911) The legislation was defeated by the Republicans because of opposition from the airlines.

-Clinton Administration sent legislation to Congress to allow for BETTER TRACKING OF TERRORIST FUNDING. It was defeated by Republicans in the Senate because of opposition from banking interests.

-Clinton Administration sent legislation to Congress to add tagents to explosives, to allow for BETTER TRACKING OF EXPLOSIVES USED BY TERRORISTS. It was defeated by the Republicans because of opposition from the NRA.

-Clinton Administration increased the military budget by an average of 14 per cent, reversing the trend under Bush I.

-Clinton Administration tripled the budget of the FBI for counterterrorism and doubled overall funding for counterterrorism

-Clinton Administration detected and destroyed cells of Al Qaeda in over 20 countries

-Clinton Administration created national stockpile of drugs and vaccines including 40 million doses of smallpox vaccine.

-Of Clinton Administration’s efforts says Robert Oakley, Reagan Ambassador for Counterterrorism: “Overall, I give them very high marks” and “The only major criticism I have is the obsession with Osama”

-Paul Bremer, then Civilian Administrator of Iraq disagrees slightly with Robert Oakley as he believed the Clinton Administration had “correctly focused on bin Laden.

-Barton Gellman in the Washington Post put it best, “By any measure available, Clinton Administration left office having given greater priority to terrorism than any president before him” and was the “first administration to undertake a systematic anti-terrorist effort”

So I guess Clinton and his administration really didn’t do anything.

WS,

Before you call me a troll, I am really more of a hobbit by nature.

“Record revenues mean nothing if you are not paying your bills.” {WSClark}

That was my point earlier… It all means nothing if the deficit keeps building higher and higher!

Shoot, American whatever, I’m older than Clark!

Chas………………. troll rule…………

And yes, Clark, I know — DNFTT’s

#
Chas.
Posted January 21, 2008 at 8:39 pm | Permalink

Regular, why dont you try participating in the Blog, instead of just taking pot shots at other posters, for a change… We might not dislike you as much if you did that…
———————

Why don’t you show me some respect and I’ll return the favor.

Constantly calling me troll and using other names I’ve posted with does nothing to further harmony.

You do know that CapnAmerica has a list of alternative names much longer than mine.

Of course Chas, you would have to give up some of your “hater” status and I don’t think you are willing to do that are you? :)

Chas………………………………………

Definition of a Leftist Lib:

“So narrow minded, they can look through a keyhole with both eyes.”

I’m outta this thread….

A good debate for the Dems.

But at times, both Obama and Edwards came off as a bit whiny.

Senator Clinton is one tough lady! She didn’t flinch once.

See, the Libs tend to call out facism, and bigotry, and religious fanaticism when we see it… Much the way Dr. King did in his too short lifetime…

Dr. King had more wisdom in his pinky finger, than YOU Regular, or I have in our broken down, disabled bodies!!

Of course, that among other things, is also what got him killed!! I sure did used to like that old song, “Abraham, Martin, and John” I wish somebody would bring that one back!!

Chas,

HOW DID THE REAGAN TAX CUTS AFFECT THE U.S. TREASURY?
Many critics of reducing taxes claim that the Reagan tax cuts drained the U.S. Treasury. The reality is that federal revenues increased significantly between 1980 and 1990:

Total federal revenues doubled from just over $517 billion in 1980 to more than $1 trillion in 1990. In constant inflation-adjusted dollars, this was a 28 percent increase in revenue.3

As a percentage of the gross domestic product (GDP), federal revenues declined only slightly from 18.9 percent in 1980 to 18 percent in 1990.4

Revenues from individual income taxes climbed from just over $244 billion in 1980 to nearly $467 billion in 1990.5 In inflation-adjusted dollars, this amounts to a 25 percent increase.

Chas,

HOW DID REAGAN’S POLICIES AFFECT FEDERAL SPENDING?
Although critics continue to focus on President Reagan’s budget “cuts,” federal spending rose significantly during the 1980s:

Federal spending more than doubled, growing from almost $591 billion in 1980 to $1.25 trillion in 1990. In constant inflation-adjusted dollars, this was an increase of 35.8 percent.6

As a percentage of GDP, federal expenditures grew slightly from 21.6 percent in 1980 to 21.8 percent in 1990.7

Contrary to popular myth, while inflation-adjusted defense spending increased by 50 percent between 1980 and 1989, it was curtailed when the Cold War ended and fell by 15 percent between 1989 and 1993. However, means-tested entitlements, which do not include Social Security or Medicare, rose by over 102 percent between 1980 and 1993, and they have continued climbing ever since.8

Total spending on all national security programs never equaled domestic spending, even when Social Security, Medicare, and net interest are excluded from domestic totals. In addition, national security spending fell during the Administration of the senior President Bush, while domestic spending increased in both mandatory and discretionary accounts.9

“Many critics of reducing taxes claim that the Reagan tax cuts drained the U.S. Treasury. The reality is that federal revenues increased significantly between 1980 and 1990:”

Revenue may have went up, but so did deficits and debt.

In 1975, we had a little less than $550 billion in National Debt.

Today we have $9.2 trillion in National Debt.

So, just how well are those “Piss On You” economics working?

Chas and WS,

Who pays the most income taxes right now?

Top 10% pay 65% of income taxes.

Bottom 50% pay 3% of income taxes.

Oh Geez, now it sounds just like Max!! LOL Here it goes again!! The more money you make, the more taxes you pay… Thats the way the IRS system is designed!! Good grief!!

#
Chas.
Posted January 21, 2008 at 9:24 pm | Permalink

Well, many of my ancestors were being run off their lands, and shoved on to reservations — And maybe a few of them might have been on the underground railroads as well!!
—————
Weak Chas, I have N.A. in my ancestry as well, but certainly won’t claim any diluted victimhood to something that happened 200 years ago.

As far as the Underground Railroad goes, if you know your ancestry, you can go to any of the URR websites and try to locate your ancestors to see if they participated. Mine did and are found on those Websites. In fact, there was a house that was still standing in Ohio until the 1940s that was a URR station that one of my ancestors owned.

Ok I get it It’s Weak if my ancestors are herded like animals on to reservations, but we are supposed to Cheer your ancestors who helped slaves escape… Got ya…. What I SAID was that some of my ancestors were most likely being helped escape by some of yours!!

AmWay, if you were the banker for a couple that made $100,000 a year between them, and they came to you year after year after year after year to borrow $20,000 to $45,000 to cover their expenses, would you loan them the money or would you tell them that they needed to learn to live within their means or raise their income level?

Well, Reagan and the Bushes did neither. They didn’t raise their income level nor did they learn to live within their means.

If the Republican presidents were a normal American Family, you would call them deadbeats and irresponsible for their borrowing and spending habits.

But you celebrate Reagan and the Bushes economic plans.

Chas.
Posted January 21, 2008 at 9:33 pm | Permalink

Ok I get it It’s Weak if my ancestors are herded like animals on to reservations, but we are supposed to Cheer your ancestors who helped slaves escape… Got ya…. What I SAID was that some of my ancestors were most likely being helped escape by some of yours!
—————-
Okay Chas, when you can show me some facts we’ll deal with that issue.

My N.A. ancestors were (wait for it) chased out of the Eastern area of the United States by others Native Americans, not immigrants.

Maybe that’s why we have a hard time communicating Chas, because you respond with rhetoric rather than facts.

Alot of people are losing multiples in their investments compared to what their tax burden is. Vote Republican and you get what you deserve.

CNN readers respond angrily to ‘race or gender’ story

CNN) — Within minutes of posting a story on CNN’s homepage called “Gender or race: Black women voters face tough choices in South Carolina,” readers reacted quickly and angrily.

Readers want media to focus more on the candidates and how they feel about the issues not their gender or race.

Many took umbrage at the story’s suggestion that black women voters face “a unique, and most unexpected dilemma” about voting their race or their gender.

CNN received dozens of e-mails shortly after posting the story, which focuses largely on conversations about Hillary Clinton and Barack Obama that a CNN reporter observed at a hair salon in South Carolina whose customers are predominantly African-American.

The story states: “For these women, a unique, and most unexpected dilemma, presents itself: Should they vote their race, or should they vote their gender?” Read the story

An e-mailer named Tiffany responded sarcastically: “Duh, I’m a black woman and here I am at the voting booth. Duh, since I’m illiterate I’ll pull down the lever for someone. Hm… Well, he black so I may vote for him… oh wait she a woman I may vote for her… What Ise gon’ do? Oh lordy!”

more at:

http://www.cnn.com/2008/POLITICS/01/21/emails.race.gender/index.html?eref=rss_topstories

Chas, don’t play with the big fat troll – just ignore him – ignore his taunts and insults.

He wants you to respond – that gives him his kick.

Just let it go – it’s easy and it really pisses him off.

Try it.

American, Re-distribution of wealth has more than one side to it… As I see it, if we raise the tax burden of the lower income brackets, it is the same re-distribution, as if you take from the wealthier tax brackets… Same difference… The solution is to reform the entire tax system!! There are many models of reform floating around… So far I am not convinced of any of the reform models being better than what we have now… But, I am sure there will be more models yet to come!!

Why would you assume that I get benefits??? I work for a living, thank you very much… nobody is paying MY bills for me!!

Well, long day tomorrow…

Good night; Good luck;
God bless; whatever you conceive God to be!

Blessings to all!!

Brother Martin, we barely knew ye!

Here’s the guy that got canned for making the blasphemous estimate of 100-200 bil. war costs:
“National Economic Adviser Lawrence Lindsey told an Iraqi newspaper that it might cost as much as 1 percent to 2 percent of the national gross domestic product, or $100 billion to $200 billion. He was much criticized inside the administration for broaching such a large number, and dismissed from his job on the eve of the war.

Nathan, answer one question – why would ANYONE choose to be homosexual and live a life subject to bigotry, hatred and prejudice, denied the rights of ordinary people and threatened with physical harm?

Why would anyone CHOOSE that for a lifestyle?

No, Nathan, I have said that…………

A. Don’t ask, don’t tell was a stupid policy.

B. Gays and lesbians were born that way.

YOU are the one that said that gays and lesbians CHOOSE to be as such.

“You won’t answer the question, because you know there is no way to prove someone who claims to be a homosexual a liar with some scientific test.”

For the last freakin’ time, Nathan, medical science has shown that in cases tested, there is a significant difference is the brain of a straight person and a gay person.

Whether the difference is present in all homosexuals or whether it shows in some heterosexuals or how it shows in the brains of bisexuals is not known.

They have not test all gays yet.

As with many medical discoveries, not everything is immediately black and white.

As with many medical discoveries, it will take some time to reach an absolute level of certainty.

But that does not mean that gays and lesbians CHOOSE to be as such.

Christ.

WS Clark,

Do you know what a complex question fallacy is?

Let me give you an example of one:

WSClark
Posted January 21, 2008 at 11:33 pm | Permalink

“Nathan, why are you so afraid of homosexuals?”

“Plurium Interrogationum

The complex question fallacy occurs when the writer joins two issues together and asks the reader to treat them as one. The problem is that the reader is forced to accept or reject both together although he or she may find one acceptable and the other unacceptable. This technique is used for constructing loaded questions–those carefully designed so that regardless of how answered, the questioner’s purpose is served. This fallacy is also known as the fallacy of interrogation or the fallacy of presuppositon*. The complex question fallacy is the illegitimate use of the logical and operator.”

http://www.sinclair.edu/centers/wc/LogicalFallacy/TheComplexQuestion/index.cfm

Cosmos,

Where did I claim to be the blog’s science expert?

Cosmos,

You made the claim that:

“Nathan, as usual, continues to falsely claim to be the blog’s “science” expert.”

Once again:

Where did I make any such claim?

As allways, see me at http://www.wen2k.com Herbert West III Publisher/Journalist. You will find about 126 artilces under the top25 section. HLWIII west.herb@yahoo.com

American writes–

Who pays the most income taxes right now?

Top 10% pay 65% of income taxes.

Bottom 50% pay 3% of income taxes

******

We’ve dealt with this canard many times, but since you’re apparently new, I’ll demolish it once again for you.

1. There’re a lot of taxes besides income taxes. Social security–which is capped to payments on the first 90,000 of income–for example means that most non-rich people pay a HIGHER percentage of their income in taxes than rich people.

Warren Buffet has pointed this out repeatedly–that he as the second richest man in America actually pays less in taxes as a percentage of his income than his secretary who makes only 60,000 a year.

2. High income earners will always pay a large percentage of income tax collected for the simple reason that they make a lot of money.

It’s a tax on income, remember?

The only way they could pay less taxes is if they made less income and other people made more income.

If they don’t like paying so much in income taxes, I’ll gladly let them give ME money so I can pay some of their taxes for them.

How many rich folks will take me up on that?

“That “asprin factory” had traces of VX gas chemicals in the soil surrounding it.”

Capn, the US Government withdrew the above LIE by the Clinton Administration. There was ZERO evidence of VX gas chemicals.

It was a lie.