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Happy Sunday all. If you are undecided about whether to go to church this morning, go! The Lord has something to share with you and He will meet you more than halfway.
A Max style post:
Bush wants to take away our GUNS!!!!
“The Bush administration’s position in the case before the Supreme Court on the constitutionality of the District of Columbia’s ban on handguns has created an unexpected and serious backlash in conservative circles, disappointing gun enthusiasts and creating implications for the presidential campaign.”
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/01/19/AR2008011902231.html?hpid=moreheadlines
Most diversity training efforts at American companies are ineffective and even counterproductive in increasing the number of women and minorities in managerial positions, according to an analysis that turns decades of conventional wisdom, government policy and court rulings on their head.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/01/19/AR2008011901899.html?hpid=sec-nation
Now that’s an understatement. At my company, diversity training comes out of HR. That makes it a joke right out of the gate. To top it off, I work for a California company, so you can only imagine what diversity training entails. Of course it’s mandatory and you have to sign a document.
America is for sale…cheap
“Last May, a Saudi Arabian conglomerate bought a Massachusetts plastics maker. In November, a French company established a new factory in Adrian, Mich., adding 189 automotive jobs to an area accustomed to layoffs. In December, a British company bought a New Jersey maker of cough syrup.
For much of the world, the United States is now on sale at discount prices.
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/01/20/business/20invest.html?_r=1&hp&oref=slogin
Award-winning quaternary geologist Dr. Olafur Ingolfsson, a professor from the University of Iceland who has conducted extensive expeditions and field research in the both the Arctic and Antarctic, chilled fears that the iconic polar bear is threatened by global warming. Ingolfsson was awarded the prestigious “Antarctic Service Medal of the United States” by the National Science Foundation. “We have this specimen that confirms the polar bear was a morphologically distinct species at least 100,000 years ago, and this basically means that the polar bear has already survived one interglacial period,” Ingolfsson said according to a December 10, 2007 article in the BBC. The article explained, “And what’s interesting about that is that the Eeemian – the last interglacial – was much warmer than the Holocene (the present).” Ingolfsson continued, “This is telling us that despite the on-going warming in the Arctic today, maybe we don’t have to be quite so worried about the polar bear. That would be very encouraging.” Ingolfsson is optimistic about the polar bears future because of his research about the Earth’s history. “The polar bear is basically a brown bear that decided some time ago that it would be easier to feed on seals on the ice. So long as there are seals, there are going to be polar bears. I think the threat to the polar bears is much more to do with pollution, the build up of heavy metals in the Arctic. This is just how I interpret it. But this is science – when you have little data, you have lots of freedom,” he concluded.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/7132220.stm
Jan 20.
That means barring any nefarious interference with the electoral process and the Constitution,
one year from today george bush goes into exile!
LOL and a bright and sunny good morning to you too JR!
thanks for the words of wisdom outlander, but the Lord does make house calls too!
Absolutely right, Writerdog!
Yesterday, the Goracle disciple posting under the nic ‘ksagnostic’ rambled on for quite a while defending cosmos and AGW.
I was going to answer but then I realized that his main point was that I was guilty of “rhetorical misdirection”. His rambling response to my daily posts was a perfect example of “rhetorical misdirection”! Furthermore, it contained several examples of Writerdog’s indicators of propaganda!
Poor ol’ ksagnostic did little more than demonstrate that he, cosmos and other left-wing disciples of the Goracle are unable to engage in meaningful debate in a civil manner.
I’m always somewhat amused when someone claims t be an agnostic or an atheist. An atheist is someone to lazy to admit they are an agnostic and an agnostic is someone to dishonest to admit they are an atheist.
What you mean Hank, is that you got your clock cleaned, AGAIN.
Good morning J R!
One’s clock can never be too clean!
Hey Hank well the boy is now in Ga, at AT school till May. He is still jazzed as am I, but he found out he is not going to be doing any HALO jumps at Air Borne school after his AT. That disappointed him but LOL I am not! It one of those things you only get one chance to get right and there is no do-overs.
But the bright side is maybe a trip to the sand box is not going to be as bad as it was a year ago. Fingers crossed!
Dear Hank Price,
Please use your huge intellect developed from running a nuclear submarine to answer the following:
1) How does the evolution of polar bears from brown bears a very long time ago refute the very solid scientific consensus re AGW?
(Hint: It does not.)
2) How will the polar bears evolve back to brown bears in less than one generation, when their habit is gone, i.e. loss of Arctic sea ice?
(Hint: they cannot)
3) List all the effects the loss of Arctic sea ice will have on all life in that region — seals, polar bears, walrus, etc.
4) List all the effects the loss of Arctic sea ice will have on global climate, such as rainfall in the U.S..
http://nsidc.org/news/press/2007_seaiceminimum/20070810_faq.html
“Why is Arctic sea ice so important?
Arctic sea ice keeps the polar regions cool and helps moderate global climate. Sea ice has a bright surface, so 80 percent of the sunlight that strikes it is reflected back into space.
As sea ice melts in the summer, it exposes the dark ocean surface. Instead of reflecting 80 percent of the sunlight, the ocean absorbs 90 percent of the sunlight. The oceans heat up, and Arctic temperatures rise further.
A small temperature increase at the poles leads to still greater warming over time, making the poles the most sensitive regions to climate change on Earth.
According to scientific measurements, both the thickness and summer sea ice extent in the Arctic have shown a dramatic decline over the past thirty years. This is consisistent with observations of a warming Arctic.
The loss of sea ice also has the potential to accelerate global warming trends and to change climate patterns.
All About Sea Ice
http://nsidc.org/seaice/environment/index.html
“This section explores the role of sea ice in our global climate, human activities, and in the life cycles of wildlife.
Global Climate
Trends
Indigenous People
• Impacts
• Knowledge
Operations
• Military
Wildlife
• Phytoplankton
• Mammals
• Seals
• Polar Bears”
Re Hank Price’s polar bear claims,
‘I do not think that jawbone means what you think it means’
http://switchboard.nrdc.org/blogs/awetzler/i_do_not_think_that_jawbone_me.html
“The problem with Dr. Ingólfsson’s analysis is that — even granting for the sake or argument that polar bears can survive a climate as warm as the Eemian interglacial — most global warming models predict that we’re headed for a climate far warmer than that.”
More at link.
Cosmos it only seems fair that if you can continually attack Hank’s credentials that you share with us all what exactly you do that makes you a worthy foe on the scientific front.
Not being adversarial but really would like to know this.
There are certainly differences between the two stories and the future of the polar bear. Since both are geologists and have basically the same background why would one be more honest that the other?
Watched the Kansas Week program this AM, Publisher of the Mulvane News was there. Randy Brown, a Dion ? from WSU.
Kind of overlooked in the casino debate is the number of lawsuits that can / will be filed to prevent it in Mulvanr. Suits questioning the serpentine annexation, a public vote, county selection process to name a few are quite possible …. can significantly delay the start of construction
Two comments.
After all the outings (of Regular/Kansas/Rebublikhan/etc.) and threats of outings (by Regular/Kansas/Rebublikhan/etc.) on this website, I think anybody who releases any personal info here is insane. That means any personal info, including a curriculum vitæ or resume. There is at least one borderline personality among us here, one who’s threatened others or expressed a willlingness to harm others.
And who knows what other borderlines read this website yet never post?
Secondly, my hat’s off to those like Mary Caruso, Hank Price, Steven Davis, and Vaughn Tolle who by publication of their names are forced to stand by all their comments (I’m sure there are others who do this, too, others who are unfortunately subject to my faulty memory at this time).
ksgrm,
I’m asking Hank Price to explain and/or defend the copy/paste he made at 8:02 am.
His post does not refute the solid, scientific consensus re AGW.
As Pedant posted, let’s see Hank Price “stand by” his comments.
It seems that all Hank Price can do is make copy/pastes, and then make false ad hominem attacks at me, ksagnostic, and others.
Such as Hank Price implying that I’m “a prepubescent sixth grader crouched in his mommy’s basement”.
On polar bears, I trust the science done by biologists, such as,
http://www.usgs.gov/newsroom/special/polar%5Fbears/
http://www.usgs.gov/newsroom/special/polar_bears/docs/executive_summary.pdf
“The overall conclusion of the USGS research effort is:
Projected changes in future sea ice conditions, if realized, will result in loss of approximately 2/3 of the world’s current polar bear population by the mid 21st century. Because the observed trajectory of Arctic sea ice decline appears to be underestimated by currently available models, this assessment of future polar bear status may be conservative.”
‘Walrus Latest To Be Threatened By Warming
Sea Ice Melting Leaving Many Stranded On Land, Causing Stampedes, Woes For Other Species’
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2007/12/24/tech/main3644646.shtml
Hey Writerdog!
Your boy remains in our prayers! In the early ’70s I was stationed in Pascagoula, MS.
I had the opportunity to take up sky diving. Our ground school was given by a crusty old retired 101st Airborne E-9.
Our first jumps were made in Gov. issue canopy chutes. If they failed they had to be cut away and the emergency backup chute had to be opened and played out by hand. A rather cumbersome procedure that kept you focused to complete in a timely manner.
While explaining and demonstrating the procedure a young lady in the front of the class raised her hand with a worried look on her face.
“How long do we have to get the emergency chute out?” She asked.
“The rest of your life.” The crusty old Master Sergeant replied, “The rest of your life!”
ksgrm,
Is Hank Price’s historian, David Noble, a “credible source” re climate science?
http://blogs.kansas.com/weblog/2008/01/open-thread-119/#comment-277493
Right, Hank.
I’ve jumped with those old WW2 vintage chutes too.
The emergancy chute only has to be played out until it fills up with air, and hopefully your fouled main chute is at least slowing you down, but any way you figure it, you’re in for a wild ride.
Some other good sayings about skydiving: “if your chute doesn’t open, your next jump is free.”
And “the two things that don’t help you are runway behind you and airspace above you.”
Dear Hank Price,
Have you been in a nuclear sub under the Arctic sea ice, and surfaced through the ice at the North Pole?
Al Gore has.
Read ‘From Pole to Shining Pole’, starting on page 138 of his AIT book. Photos of USS Pargo surfacing through the ice on page 142.
Dear cosmos,
Many of the opinions that I post from the list provided by the Senate Environment and Public Works Committee that I post daily I do not agree with myself.
Yesterdays is a perfect example. Professor Noble is a left-wing nut and the body of his work is pretty much anti-establishment, anti-technology drivel in my opinion. That being said you should go to his link and actually read the information on how the Goracle has sold out to big business. Hell, The Goracle is big business and any one that watches his documentary and believes any of it is a fool.
Which brings us to todays daily post. Are you disingenuous or stupid? The point made by Dr. Olafur Ingolfsson is very simple and documented so that even a “a prepubescent sixth grader crouched in his mommy’s basement” can understand.
The point is simply that, POLAR BEARS ARE NOT THREATENED BY GLOBAL WARMING.
Really cosmos, please try to focus. This ain’t rocket science (or nuclear power!)
MonkeyHawk’s reprint of Dowd’s article was very informative–
“what if instead of invading Iraq, Bush had put 1 trillion dollars into developing alternative energy?”
We’d be less dependent on foreign oil, we’d be creating more jobs, and we’d be world leaders in green energy.
Our economy would be booming instead of stagnating, our dollar would be firming instead of weakening, and we’d be exporting something that benefits us and the entire world.
Nope. Bush opted for money for Halliburton and Big Oil.
“the Goracle has sold out to big business.”
WHAT?!
What apostasy is this?
Since when do you CONs not like “big business,” Hank?
Without socialism for the rich and crony capitalism, the Bush family would be nothing.
http://www.junkscience.com
Dear cosmos,
I’m not sure exactly what your question has to do with anything but yes, I have operated submerged under the Arctic ice. On numerous occasions.
The missions I was on were mostly classified and I probably shouldn’t get into details until I see them on the ‘History Channel’ but I have surfaced at the North pole.
Again, I see no relevance, being a passenger on a moon launch doesn’t make you a rocket scientist. Surfacing at the North Pole doesn’t make you an Arctic explorer either.
Hank posted January 20, 2008 at 11:21 am
“The point is simply that, POLAR BEARS ARE NOT THREATENED BY GLOBAL WARMING.”
The biologists who actually study polar bears today (instead of 100,000+ year old jawbones) strongly disagree!
But I guess that is too complicated for Hank Price to understand.
http://www.usgs.gov/newsroom/special/polar%5Fbears/
http://www.usgs.gov/newsroom/special/polar_bears/docs/executive_summary.pdf
“The overall conclusion of the USGS research effort is:
Projected changes in future sea ice conditions, if realized, will result in loss of approximately 2/3 of the world’s current polar bear population by the mid 21st century. Because the observed trajectory of Arctic sea ice decline appears to be underestimated by currently available models, this assessment of future polar bear status may be conservative.”
And Hank Price is also unable to understand that the polar bear issue does NOT refute the solid science of the AGW consensus.
Good morning Captain!
Hey, I like big business! I don’t care if the Goracle dies a billionaire! I just don’t like him trying to blow smoke up my skirts!
Hell, the Goracle is pissing on cosmos’ leg and the fool believes him when he’s told it’s raining!
Solution for all of the environmental wackos out there:
Exhale less. Your carbon dioxide output is causing global warming.
http://www.junkscience.com
Hey cosmos,
I haven’t read all the post the last few days, did I miss the one where you posted your credentials?
Do you know anything other than how cut and paste and list links?
Hey Capt.,
I have 55 jumps (I think ‘71 was my last) Just as scared on the last one as the first one.
I posted this over on the “Central Front” thread. Perhaps it belongs here –
The “central front” in the “war on terror” is down the street on the corner: the gas pump.
The only-est reason anyone in the United States gives a rat’s patoot about the Middle East is all that black gooey stuff beneath their sand.
We Americans are so money-centric we cannot understand how anyone might object to all the bucks we’ve given oil sheiks. We paid them! Money! And they still don’t love us?!
No, they don’t. It’s their country, their culture, their religion and (not altogether different from people in this country who resent the influx of Hispanics), they’re motivated to return to some idealized version of the past, as sweet-talked by demagogic power-seekers.
In our lust for oil, Americans have given so much money to the Middle East that money is no longer an issue to them. The people of Islam are to money what a fish is to water. It sustain them and surround them to the point they’re not even aware of it; it’s just there, thanks to the West’s addiction to oil.
Given the freedom of unlimited petro-dollars, the people of the Middle East are free to explore other threats to their culture and traditions.
It’s a pretty superficial reason to want to blow us up; all those crazy Islamic rites and medieval attitudes toward prayer and women and cutting-off-thieves’-hands and banning women drivers… not substantive, *important* stuff like pretending you’re eating Jesus’ body and drinking his blood every Sunday.
Remember that old story about the guy who’s cabin in the woods is getting inundated by rising flood waters? People drive to his cabin and offer to evacuate him and he refuses, saying, “The Lord will protect me!” The waters rise and a boat comes and offers to take him to dry land and the old guy refuses; “The Lord will protect me!” He’s forced by the flood waters to the top of his roof and a rescue helicopter offers to save him and he refuses because, “The Lord will protect me!” Then the flood takes him and he drowns and shows up in Heaven and asks God, “Lord, why didn’t you protect me?” and the Lord says, “I sent a car, a boat, and a helicopter. Why didn’t you get the hint?”
So today, the price of oil – in blood and money – is becoming a serious threat to the prosperity of Western Civilization. And today, the burning of oil is threatening the very ecosystem that sustains this tiny little planet on the edge of the Universe. And today, the prospect of developing energy from sources other than other peoples’ oil is daunting.
I’m a lapsed agnostic; I’m not sure what it is I don’t believe in. But if we end up facing the Lord, I have a suspicion He’ll say, “I sent you $3 gasoline, I sent you warnings of Global Warming, and I sent you an unwinnable war to try to convince you there’s something in the Universe better than killing others over oil. Why didn’t you get the hint?”
And then we’ll all be sent to Hell.
Dear Hank Price,
I’m glad that you were able to be in a sub under the Arctic sea ice.
That’s a common experience that you and Al Gore have.
Gore also convinced the Navy to (carefully) release parts of their sea ice thickness database to the climate scientists.
The four-star Admiral Bruce DeMars went with Gore on one his sub trips. DeMars listened to Gore re global warming during the trip, and became an ally of Gore re the sea ice data.
As ever eloquent Monkeyhawk.
“Projected changes in future sea ice conditions, if realized,”
Cosmos surely you see the inherent failure in this consensus. Changes are real yet but projected. Ice conditions aren’t real yet but projected. This is the same garbage Gore has been throwing at us for the last seventeen years. When the world failed to implode after the first ten years then he extended the deadline another 10 years. He is a snakeoil salesman. You say he isn’t the movement but throw him out as an example to try to disprove Hanks experience.
You seem reasonable just mislead. What are your credientials? That would at least give you some credibility if you are an enviornmental scientis for example.
Monkey I heard someone say yesterday that by tapping the oil in ANWAR we would have enough oil to match our exported oil for the next 30 years. If true this would give us many years to perfect alternative energy sources. If the dems are serious about getting us out of the mideast and think oil is really the draw then I suspect that by tomorrow we will have drillers on the road to Alaska.
“I heard someone say yesterday that by tapping the oil in ANWAR we would have enough oil to match our exported oil for the next 30 years”
Geologists think that there is only about six months worth of oil in ANWAR, nowhere near 30 years worth.
And I assume that you meant “match our IMPORTED oil.”
ksgrm posted January 20, 2008 at 11:54 am
“Changes are real yet but projected. Ice conditions aren’t real yet but projected.”
ksgrm, are you claiming that the observed, actual melting of Arctic sea ice is just a fanasty?
‘Arctic Ice Retreating More Quickly Than Computer Models Project’
April 30, 2007
http://www.ucar.edu/news/releases/2007/seaice.shtml
“Thirty years ahead of schedule
The study indicates that, because of the disparity between the computer models and actual observations, the shrinking of summertime ice is about 30 years ahead of the climate model projections.
As a result, the Arctic could be seasonally free of sea ice earlier than the IPCC- projected timeframe of any time from 2050 to well beyond 2100.”
And ksgrm should check the credentials of the scientists at NSIDC, UCAR, etc.
“But even at peak production, the EIA analysis said, the United States would still have to import two-thirds of its oil, as opposed to an expected 70 percent if the refuge’s oil remained off the market.”
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/4542853/
“ksgrm”?
We HAVE a resident scientist on the blog. His name is Ben and if he could find fault with anything cosmos posts, his intellectual integrity and scientific obligation would have him all over it.
I aint seeing that. Are you?
The (oil-friendly) EIA says that “technically” (ignores cost) recoverable Refuge oil would only help replace other declining Alaskan sources.
Except for the very unlikely, lucky 5% chance, domestic oil supply drops. See graph.
http://www.eia.doe.gov/oiaf/servicerpt/ogp/results.html
So it might help maintain today’s roughly 740,000 barrels/day from Alaska — assuming the old pipeline survives the wear, problems from thawing permafrost, etc.
But higher vehicle mpg is guaranteed to “produce” many times more than the Arctic Refuge, at a much lower cost, sooner, more reliably, and it wont run dry.
Just a slight increase in mileage of American cars and trucks would cover whatever benefit that would be gained by drilling for oil in ANWAR.
It would not even require a change in the cars we drive – just changing our driving habits could achieve a three percent reduction.
ksgrm posted January 20, 2008 at 11:54 am
“You say [Gore] isn’t the movement but throw him out as an example to try to disprove Hanks experience.”
No, I thought it was interesting that Gore had been in a sub under the Arctic ice, and had convinced four-star Admiral Bruce DeMars to (carefully) release the Navy’s sea ice data.
That data was important to climate scientists.
And I was just curious if Hank Price had also been under the sea ice… where you can’t surface, if the ice is too thick.
My original post went into the Cyber Blog Lost and Found……
Just a slight increase in our fuel mileage would compensate for any perceived benefit of drilling for oil in ANWAR.
We wouldn’t even have to change the cars and trucks that we drive. Even with our existing modes of transportation, we could reduce our oil consumption by three percent.
I don’t have hard numbers, but I would be willing wager that, just by observing the speed limits, we could decrease our consumption by three percent or more.
Check this weblink out:
http://www.junkscience.com/Greenhouse/al_poster600×889.jpg
PDF file, with graphs,
‘Efficiency Saves More Oil than the Refuge Would Yield’
http://www.nrdc.org/land/wilderness/arcticrefuge/facts3.pdf
An analysis,
‘Drilling in Detroit’
http://www.ucsusa.org/clean_vehicles/cars_and_suvs/page.cfm?pageID=228
Well, somebody is posting under the Nic, “Kansas” but it sure isnt the former Kansas!
Most interesting!!
Read this page,
http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php?title=Steven_Milloy
“Steven J. Milloy is a columnist for Fox News and a paid advocate for Phillip Morris, ExxonMobil and other corporations. From the 1990s until the end of 2005, he was an adjunct scholar at the libertarian think tank the Cato Institute.
…
Milloy runs the website Junkscience.com,…”
‘FACTSHEET: Steven Milloy’
http://www.exxonsecrets.org/html/personfactsheet.php?id=881
So what are the greenhouse gases?
American, of the USA posted January 20, 2008 at 11:41 am
“Solution for all of the environmental wackos out there:
Exhale less. Your carbon dioxide output is causing global warming.”
‘How much carbon dioxide do humans contribute through breathing?’
http://epa.gov/climatechange/fq/emissions.html#7
“… However, this carbon dioxide is part of a natural closed-loop cycle and does not contribute to the greenhouse gas concentrations in the atmosphere. Natural processes of photosynthesis (in plants) and respiration (in plants and animals) maintain a balance of oxygen and carbon dioxide in the atmosphere. Thus, the carbon dioxide from natural process is not included in greenhouse gas inventories.
In contrast, the burning of fossil fuels upsets this natural equilibrium by adding a surplus of carbon dioxide into the system. The carbon in fossil fuels has been stored underground for millions of years and thus is not part of the current natural carbon cycle.”
More at link.
From Wikipedia:
The Center for Media and Democracy (CMD) is a nonprofit American-based media research group founded in 1993 by environmentalist writer and political activist John Stauber. It publishes PR Watch, a quarterly newsletter edited by Laura A. Miller. Stauber and CMD research director Sheldon Rampton have written five books describing what they call the murky world of public relations.
Another CMD project is the SourceWatch website (formerly called Disinfopedia), a Wiki, which CMD describes as “a collaborative project to produce a directory of public relations firms, think tanks, industry-funded organizations and industry-friendly experts that work to influence public opinion and public policy on behalf of corporations, governments and special interests.”
CMD has stated that it is not affiliated with a political party, but that it does not pretend to lack opinions or a point of view. It states its opposition to “the barriers and distortions of the modern information environment that stem from government- or corporate-dominated, hierarchical media.” In contrast, it favors “grassroots citizen activism that promotes public health, economic justice, ecological sustainability and human rights.”
—–
Info on Sourcewatch the admittedly left leaning source for checking sources. Everybody sing; A source is a source, of course, of course….
OK — Who is going to win the AFC playoff?? Can New England remain unbeaten?? Can the Chargers put their team back together long enough to win?
We shall soon see!!
And will Green Bay warm up enough, to not freeze the ball, and make it break in half?? LOL
Tune in to find out these, and other questions as the NFL continues!!
American, of the USA posted January 20, 2008 at 1:08 pm
“So what are the greenhouse gases?”
Go to,
http://www.ipcc.ch/ipccreports/ar4-wg1.htm
Download the Summary and Chapter 2 PDF’s, and read them.
cosmos,
Why do you refer me to a Greenpeace website? Obviously, because they are of the enviromental wack ilk, they will disagree with reason and facts.
outlander,
Is there anything inaccurate at Sourcewatch and Exxonsecrets, re Steven Milloy?
Would you expect a right-wing source to report on Milloy?
Chuckle… SourceWatch used to be call Disinfopedia! Wonder why they changed the name?
American, you could probably go to DiscoveryChannel.com, and do a search for greenhouse gases… It’s not like they change from one web site to another!! Geez!!
cosmos,
What about the below from junkscience.com:
“So, greenhouse is all about carbon dioxide, right?
Wrong. The most important players on the greenhouse stage are water vapor and clouds. Carbon dioxide has been increased to about 0.038% of the atmosphere (possibly from about 0.028% pre-Industrial Revolution) while water in its various forms ranges from 0% to 4% of the atmosphere and its properties vary by what form it is in and even at what altitude it is found in the atmosphere.
In simple terms the bulk of Earth’s greenhouse effect is due to water vapor by virtue of its abundance. Water accounts for about 90% of the Earth’s greenhouse effect — perhaps 70% is due to water vapor and about 20% due to clouds (mostly water droplets), some estimates put water as high as 95% of Earth’s total tropospheric greenhouse effect (e.g., Freidenreich and Ramaswamy, “Solar Radiation Absorption by Carbon Dioxide, Overlap with Water, and a Parameterization for General Circulation Models,” Journal of Geophysical Research 98 (1993):7255-7264).
The remaining portion comes from carbon dioxide, nitrous oxide, methane, ozone and miscellaneous other “minor greenhouse gases.” As an example of the relative importance of water it should be noted that changes in the relative humidity on the order of 1.3-4% are equivalent to the effect of doubling CO2.”
Why no mention of water vapor on the IPCC website?
No Cosmos, I just get a kick out of people tossing out URLs like like a gambler throws down a full house. And then you look at the cards, and they come from two different decks.
American, of the USA,
Then use this site. You paid for it, with your taxes.
‘Greenhouse Gas Emissions’
http://epa.gov/climatechange/emissions/index.html
Please read KSA 60-259 and KSa’s 22-3101, 22-3103, 22-2515 and again ask the AG Six too reconsider thru this KSA 60-259 at the http://www.kansas.gov site under Disritict Court info and under Legislature under statutes. Herb West III west.herb@yahoo.com
“ksgrm” posted –
“Monkey I heard someone say yesterday that by tapping the oil in ANWAR we would have enough oil to match our exported oil for the next 30 years. If true this would give us many years to perfect alternative energy sources….”
Execpt, “ksgrm,” every drop of oil pumped out of Alaska goes to Asia and the international market… not to the USA.
There’s only one way to make sure all the oil suspected to be in ANWAR to contribute to Americans is making that oil go exclusively to Americans.
That sounds a lot like nationalizing the oil industry to me. I suspect that’s not a policy you’d advocate.
Another bucket of oil from ANWAR thrown into the ocean of oil won’t mean much as long as Asia, Europe, the Americas, and Africa insist on using fossile fuels.
Oil and coal were great transitional fuels during the 19th and 20th Centuries. Horses were great modes of transportation during the 17th and 18th Cenruries. Camels and ox-carts were the most efficiet vehicles to carry on commerce in the 14th and 15th Centuries.
Oats-for-farm-animals once was the most important commodity to civilization. Then came the internal compustion engine and oil became the commodity. If I were in the buggywhip industry in 1908, you can be sure I’d argue against the automobile.
In 2008, the oil industry will do anything in their power to promote an energy source that doesn’t come from their drilling operations.
American, of the USA posted January 20, 2008 at 1:24 pm
“Why no mention of water vapor on the IPCC website?”
Why do you lie about the IPCC?
Chapter 2,
“Water vapour is the most abundant and important greenhouse gas in the atmosphere. However, human activities have only a small direct influence on the amount of atmospheric water vapour. Indirectly, humans have the potential to affect water vapour substantially by changing climate. For example, a warmer atmosphere contains more water vapour.”
More there, and chapter 8.
What’s important about GHG’s is their Global Warming Potential, not their “percentage”.
A tiny bit of Ebola virus is an insignificant percent of a human body, but the effect is not.
Hey cosmos,
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,323645,00.html
It won’t surprise anyone.
“American for the USA”
That’s “kansas” aka JM
He always breaks to the water vapor thing.
What outlander’s game here is I DON’T know.
MOST Christians are beginning to take the stewardship of the Earth thing to heart. Guess he missed the bus? Or maybe it ran over him.
Damn, J R, it is hard to keep up with all the nic switchers.
Well, just another one on IGNORE.
Uh J R,
I highly respect Ben and I take every thing he posts relating to science very seriously.
The fact that he doesn’t respond to the idiocy of cosmos has more to do with Ben’s restraint and maturity rather than the credibility of cosmos.
Hey cosmos,
If indeed the IPCC (See: UN) believes that wator vapor “is the most abundant and important greenhouse gas in the atmosphere”, why don’t they place it at the top of their websites’ list?:
Carbon Dioxide (CO2)
Methane (CH4)
Nitrous Oxide (N2O)
Fluorinated Gases
Please do not address credibility Hank.
Not while you are waving around Senator Imhofe’s silly list.
I will be interested to see Ben checkin on this matter… perhaps later…
J R,
You are right we should be good stewards of God’s creation. It has always been that way.
But can man or should man save the earth?
Ben used to argue global warming quite a bit.
Now not so much. I think he got weary of dealing with the willful ignorance of the deniers and spinners. Too? The voices of reason are winning.
There is no denier of global warming among the viable candidates for President. Not on either side. McCain, the new GOP front runner is big on addressing global warming. It’s like Al Gore says…
“The debate is over.”
Soldier on cosmos! I’ve seen no one discredit you yet.
U.S. Geological Survey ? 1998. The most recent petroleum assessment prepared by the USGS in 1998 (OFR 98-34), increased the estimate for technically recoverable mean crude oil resources. (See Oil in the ANWR? It?s Time to Find Out!)
Only drilling will tell. The geologic indicators are very favorable for the presence of significant oil and gas resources in ANWR, but the limited data means that there is a high level of uncertainty about how much oil and gas may be present. Consequently, current estimates represent the best scientific guesses. However, most geologists agree that the potential is on the order of billions of barrels of recoverable oil and trillions of cubic feet of recoverable gas and that these resources may rival or exceed the initial reserves at Prudhoe Bay. The validity of these estimates can be proved only by drilling exploratory wells. Authorization for exploration must be given by Congress and the President.
http://www.anwr.org/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=46&Itemid=58
Like many controversies in science this one seems to not have an answer yet. It would appear that core samples and drilling to see the scope of the natural gas and petroleum need to happen post haste. This will be one of the many tools available to reduce our dependence on foreign oil.
Untill we know what we are dealing with no one can give an informed answer on ANWR. It looks like even scientist in the same field have ocassion to disagree.
I read that the paranoid brothers are assigning other nics to me.
J R,
So the debate is over?
Al Gore, the Nobel Peace prize winner (???????????)and inventor of the internet has the final word then.
What about free thinking and ideas?
What about the real truth?
JR only someone with a blind eyewould say the debate is over. That would be Algore. It never ceases to amuse me when Gore is attacked that the GWers will say he isn’t our spokesperson and then come along and elevate him to that position. You all can’t even reach a concensus in your own camp.
Dear J R,
I would assume that from past discussions that I have had with Ben on several topics that he holds my credibility on some subjects with a modicum of respect.
He is mature enough and confident enough with his positions that he can discuss and defend them without ad hominem attacks and juvenile logical falicies.
A refreshing change of pace from trying to debate with you and cosmos.
PS Who is Senator Imhoff?
Nitwit
cosmos fails to analyze the situation incorrectly because the climate scientists have a huge amount of unknowns how water vapor and clouds interact with the climate.
But hey, don’t let lack of facts stop the alarmists, they can just plug in some convenient math into their climate models and come up with a scientific wild ass guess.
And that’s all it is – a guess.
Never has so many done so many things wrong over a thirty year period and jumped to the wrong conclusions.
Later gaters, FOOTBALL!!
Yes well
I’ll let it stand whether it was you or I more civil Hank.
Your list of scientists? Ksag said it all yesterday.
James in whichever nic.
I told you before that I don’t differ with your take that SCIENCE should be ongoing.
But it is difficult to take you seriously when you are in at least a half dozen nics in any given stretch.
Junior is ranting paranoia once again.
MOST Christians are beginning to take the stewardship of the Earth thing to heart. Guess he missed the bus? Or maybe it ran over him.
————
Wrong again JR! I’m all for common sense steps to protect our planet. GW is a matter of degree. If someone wants to make electric cars, fine. Hope they make a lot of money. Reduce allowable pollutants? Sure, as long as everyone else plays by the same rules. Because what makes America great? No, it’s not Al Gore, JR. It’s the economy, stupid.
And don’t feed me this bull about the planet being in peril. (Help, we’re at the tipping point!) It’s just plain dishonest and designed to create a sense of urgency. This results in knee jerk reactions which inhibits considered study of the problem and possible solutions.
Oh, and JR, I’m sure I am as concerned as much about the environment as you are. I’m just not as gullible.
Hank Price posted January 20, 2008 at 1:53 pm
“I highly respect Ben and I take every thing he posts relating to science very seriously.”
Good! Ernst-Georg Beck is on Hank Price’s “400″ list.
When Hank copy/pastes Beck, I’ll just repost Ben’s post.
Ben posted April 16, 2007 at 1:13 pm
http://blogs.kansas.com/weblog/2007/04/is_there_a_carb/#comment-253684
“Beck – that explains a lot. I have read his stuff – very bogus. Taking samples downwind from power plants etc.”
(Note my post re Beck, 2 posts above Ben’s)
Zbigniew Jaworowski relies on Beck, and is also on Hank Price’s “400″ list.
Re the “consensus” on AGW, see Ben’s post,
http://blogs.kansas.com/weblog/2007/08/why-do-people-s/#comment-197780
Sometimes good alternatives need a little help along outlander. Against intrenched interest in the economy you speak of? 100 years gets some pretty comfortable in their revenue stream. And money of course buys power. That’ll balance HEAVY against anything drastic you might fear.
And I seem to have made you angry. I didn’t mean to.
But I did.
A little reassurance and back up for cosmos.
You are winning. See how I made outlander mad?
See how James creates more and more nics?
Even all their Presidential candidates are on board.
Their noise level and the names they call and insults they throw? It’s telling you that they are losing and they KNOW it.
You are winning.
J R,
You didn’t answer my staement and question below:
“You are right we should be good stewards of God’s creation. It has always been that way.
But can man or should man save the earth?”
Wiccan predators Sean and Rachelle Pelino, of Santa Maria, Californicatia, face merely 4 years 4 months in prison in a disgusting plea bargain involving 3 felony sexual molestation charges, for luring a 14-year-old girl with dangerous drugs and even more dangerous false religion into sexual abuse. The violent drug-dealing perverted witches wrote a letter of apology.
(Micah 5:10-15; Nahum 3:1-6; Galations 5:19-21)
. . .
Previously, new KS AG nominee Stephen Six, when a Douglas County district judge in January, 2006, ordered Stephen Scott, 22, to up to six months at the Labette County boot camp, followed by two years of supervised probation, for 8 counts of statutory rape of a 13-year-old girl. Minimum sentence should have been 12 years, but a detestable plea bargain let him plead to 3 counts of attempted aggravated indecent liberties, and will let young American girls be subjected to a continued threat from this, yet another predator turned loose on them by Douglas County.
Mr. Scott’s shyster, friends, former teachers and family members attested to his “character” for the “court” – and Six fell for it.
It remains to be seen how far AG nominee Six will fall for the wide-spread attempted cover-up of Kansas abortion mill crime, now a recognized national crisis in law enforcement.
ksgrm posted January 20, 2008 at 2:04 pm
“Only drilling will tell. The geologic indicators are very favorable for the presence of significant oil and gas resources in ANWR,…”
You mean like nearby Badami’s lousy production? LOL!
parkay
Posted January 20, 2008 at 2:45 pm | Permalink
It remains to be seen how far AG nominee Six will fall for the wide-spread attempted cover-up of Kansas abortion mill crime, now a recognized national crisis in law enforcement.
—
:lol:
Right up there with UFO’s, no doubt.
cosmos or anyonre still out there,
Please tell me this:
How long have accurate climatological records been kept as a reference to the age of the earth and cycles that have occured during that time?
I think that the main reason posters engage in nic switching is that is more difficult to place someone on the ignore list when you can’t tell who you are responding to.
My two cents, but shouldn’t the Eagle use a one person, one nic policy?
Cosmos why can you never answer a question with a well thought out, accurate answer? You constantly throw out others opinions as your own and then ask further stupid questions.
In your corner you have JR who hasn’t contributed one constructive comment today. He just declared you the winner. Winner of what? I thought we were having a discussion of GW.
Halftime and I need to get up and move.
I assume that since I have not received an answer on climatological records keeping, that we have not had accurate records being kept for more than about a couple of hundred years.
With that said, how does someone make the assertion about millions and millions of years evidence to proove their theories?
How do we know that the cycle of the earth’s temperature wasn’t up and down long before we even remotely began to be industrialized?
ksgrm,
You’re the one pushing risky, high-cost Arctic Refuge oil as a better solution than higher energy efficiency.
The Refuge has younger, and different geology than Prudhoe Bay.
Don’t you know about the problems at Badami, halfway between Prudhoe and the Refuge?
“Cosmos why can you never answer a question with a well thought out, accurate answer? You constantly throw out others opinions as your own and then ask further stupid questions.”
I’ve been thinking about cosmos recently. Cosmos has managed a feat in his time here that I’ve seen from no other poster. And I’ve seen a LOT of posters.
By and large, cosmos posts data and facts with just a little commentary. Though endlessly goaded, cosmos never devolves into long winded diatribes or gives his detractors the mud fight they come here looking for. No one else has managed to do that. I say it’s a strength. And I KNOW it frustrates the hell outta his detractors as ksgrm just showed.
“The fewer the facts, the stronger the opinion.”
Arnold H Glasgow
Cosmos may have managed to achieve the opposite of this. Namely that since his posts are mainly facts and light on opinion or rhetoric, they stand quite well and credible.
Yeah, Reg, I noticed that. Some people let their paranoia show a lot–when they go overboard worrying about who is posting, especially when they have nothing intelligent to say. The tactic seems to be, if they can claim someone uses more than one nic (with no proof, evidence or any suggestion of fact) then they (specifically WS) don’t have to respond with reason.
WS, especially, retreats to personal insults, claims of “trolls” and the like instead of trying to respond to reason. A difference of opinion does not automatically make one “wrong” and one “right”..it is a simple difference of opinion. One that WS obviously cannot handle. Maybe that is why he wrote a few months ago how he was leaving this blog and never coming back. So much for his honesty.
From The Sunday Times
January 20, 2008
FBI denies file exposing nuclear secrets theft
The FBI has been accused of covering up a file detailing government dealings with a network stealing nuclear secrets
THE FBI has been accused of covering up a key case file detailing evidence against corrupt government officials and their dealings with a network stealing nuclear secrets.
The assertion follows allegations made in The Sunday Times two weeks ago by Sibel Edmonds, an FBI whistleblower, who worked on the agency’s investigation of the network.
Edmonds, a 37-year-old former Turkish language translator, listened into hundreds of sensitive intercepted conversations while based at the agency’s Washington field office.
She says the FBI was investigating a Turkish and Israeli-run network that paid high-ranking American officials to steal nuclear weapons secrets. These were then sold on the international black market to countries such as Pakistan and Saudi Arabia.
One of the documents relating to the case was marked 203A-WF-210023. Last week, however, the FBI responded to a freedom of information request for a file of exactly the same number by claiming that it did not exist. But The Sunday Times has obtained a document signed by an FBI official showing the existence of the file.
Edmonds believes the crucial file is being deliberately covered up by the FBI because its contents are explosive. She accuses the agency of an “outright lie”.
“I can tell you that that file and the operations it refers to did exist from 1996 to February 2002. The file refers to the counterintelligence programme that the Department of Justice has declared to be a state secret to protect sensitive diplomatic relations,” she said.
The freedom of information request had not been initiated by Edmonds. It was made quite separately by an American human rights group called the Liberty Coalition, acting on a tip-off it received from an anonymous correspondent.
The letter says: “You may wish to request pertinent audio tapes and documents under FOIA from the Department of Justice, FBI-HQ and the FBI Washington field office.”
It then makes a series of allegations about the contents of the file – many of which corroborate the information that Edmonds later made public.
Edmonds had told this newspaper that members of the Turkish political and diplomatic community in the US had been actively acquiring nuclear secrets. They often acted as a conduit, she said, for Inter-Services Intelligence (ISI), Pakistan’s spy agency, because they attracted less suspicion.
She claimed corrupt government officials helped the network, and venues such as the American-Turkish Council (ATC) in Washington were used as drop-off points.
The anonymous letter names a high-level government official who was allegedly secretly recorded speaking to an official at the Turkish embassy between August and December 2001.
It claims the government official warned a Turkish member of the network that they should not deal with a company called Brewster Jennings because it was a CIA front company investigating the nuclear black market. The official’s warning came two years before Brewster Jennings was publicly outed when one of its staff, Valerie Plame, was revealed to be a CIA agent in a case that became a cause célèbre in the US.
The letter also makes reference to wiretaps of Turkish “targets” talking to ISI intelligence agents at the Pakistani embassy in Washington and recordings of “operatives” at the ATC.
Edmonds is the subject of a number of state secret gags preventing her from talking further about the investigation she witnessed.
“I cannot discuss the details considering the gag orders,” she said, “but I reported all these activities to the US Congress, the inspector general of the justice department and the 9/11 commission. I told them all about what was contained in this case file number, which the FBI is now denying exists.
“This gag was invoked not to protect sensitive diplomatic relations but criminal activities involving US officials who were endangering US national security.”
From The Sunday Times
January 20, 2008
FBI denies file exposing nuclear secrets theft
The FBI has been accused of covering up a file detailing government dealings with a network stealing nuclear secrets
INSIGHT
THE FBI has been accused of covering up a key case file detailing evidence against corrupt government officials and their dealings with a network stealing nuclear secrets.
The assertion follows allegations made in The Sunday Times two weeks ago by Sibel Edmonds, an FBI whistleblower, who worked on the agency’s investigation of the network.
Edmonds, a 37-year-old former Turkish language translator, listened into hundreds of sensitive intercepted conversations while based at the agency’s Washington field office.
She says the FBI was investigating a Turkish and Israeli-run network that paid high-ranking American officials to steal nuclear weapons secrets. These were then sold on the international black market to countries such as Pakistan and Saudi Arabia.
Related Links
For sale: West’s deadly nuclear secrets
One of the documents relating to the case was marked 203A-WF-210023. Last week, however, the FBI responded to a freedom of information request for a file of exactly the same number by claiming that it did not exist. But The Sunday Times has obtained a document signed by an FBI official showing the existence of the file.
Edmonds believes the crucial file is being deliberately covered up by the FBI because its contents are explosive. She accuses the agency of an “outright lie”.
“I can tell you that that file and the operations it refers to did exist from 1996 to February 2002. The file refers to the counterintelligence programme that the Department of Justice has declared to be a state secret to protect sensitive diplomatic relations,” she said.
The freedom of information request had not been initiated by Edmonds. It was made quite separately by an American human rights group called the Liberty Coalition, acting on a tip-off it received from an anonymous correspondent.
The letter says: “You may wish to request pertinent audio tapes and documents under FOIA from the Department of Justice, FBI-HQ and the FBI Washington field office.”
It then makes a series of allegations about the contents of the file – many of which corroborate the information that Edmonds later made public.
Edmonds had told this newspaper that members of the Turkish political and diplomatic community in the US had been actively acquiring nuclear secrets. They often acted as a conduit, she said, for Inter-Services Intelligence (ISI), Pakistan’s spy agency, because they attracted less suspicion.
She claimed corrupt government officials helped the network, and venues such as the American-Turkish Council (ATC) in Washington were used as drop-off points.
The anonymous letter names a high-level government official who was allegedly secretly recorded speaking to an official at the Turkish embassy between August and December 2001.
It claims the government official warned a Turkish member of the network that they should not deal with a company called Brewster Jennings because it was a CIA front company investigating the nuclear black market. The official’s warning came two years before Brewster Jennings was publicly outed when one of its staff, Valerie Plame, was revealed to be a CIA agent in a case that became a cause célèbre in the US.
The letter also makes reference to wiretaps of Turkish “targets” talking to ISI intelligence agents at the Pakistani embassy in Washington and recordings of “operatives” at the ATC.
Edmonds is the subject of a number of state secret gags preventing her from talking further about the investigation she witnessed.
“I cannot discuss the details considering the gag orders,” she said, “but I reported all these activities to the US Congress, the inspector general of the justice department and the 9/11 commission. I told them all about what was contained in this case file number, which the FBI is now denying exists.
“This gag was invoked not to protect sensitive diplomatic relations but criminal activities involving US officials who were endangering US national security.”
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/us_and_americas/article3216737.ece
Sorry, did not mean for the article about the FBI to be duplicated. To bad this new site doesn’t allow you to “preview” before posting. Again, I am very sorry.
Dear Hank Price,
An update to my earlier post,
http://blogs.kansas.com/weblog/2008/01/open-thread-120-2/#comment-278188
Joel M. Kauffman, in your “400″ list, also relies on Ernst-George Beck. Beck also signed “The Climate Manifest of Heiligenroth” and the December 13, 2007 open letter.
Please feel free to also call Ben a “nitwit” and “a prepubescent sixth grader crouched in his mommy’s basement” if/when I post criticism re Beck.
The problem in the global warming debate is that no one is willing to acknowledge the severe harm it will do to our economy to implement the reductions in carbon emissions that are recommended.
Poster — Your FBI post is indeed very enlightening, especially concerning the Valerie Plame incident that followed. I do hope you can find out more about that story. I fear if it isnt further developed, it might go unreported on TV News stations. Please find more information?
Poster,
Perhaps Edmond didn’t take into consideration that the CIA had planted a mole inside that group. If they did, Edmond just blew it and jeopardize the safety of an active investigation and perhaps lives.
Regular, you are going to get dizzy with all of that spinning LOL :roll:
Troll-boy…………..The White Zone is for loading and unloading only……………
The quick brown fox jumped over the lazy dog and left the hen house minus the eggs of green, but left the red eggs.
Underline
Regular, I stand corrected. You spin that much, you just lose your freakin’ mind! :roll:
Testing WordPress Blog Features.
First an image post, if it works, hey hey hey.
Some people know how to kill a thread :-(
What? No hamster dance?
Test. One, two, three test. This is a test to see if normal people can still post regular ole text on the weblog.
Do not adjust your screens. This is only a test.
Naw, just experimenting, I don’t want to trash the blog with graphics and won’t. :)
What do these words all have in common??
Banana
Dresser
Grammar
Potato
Revive
Uneven
Assess
JR — It’s already loose!! LOL
They are those palidrome things Chas.
Right you are!! Pick your prize from the lovely balloon board in the rear!! LOL
Good Night; Good Luck; and
God bless, whatever you conceive
God to be!
Blessings All!!
God bless, whatever you conceive
Hey Chas.
And as a part-time minister, shouldn’t you KNOW what you have a notion on what God is, and what
we should believe him to be?
If I believe God is a goat, is that O.K. with you?
Don’t waste your time American Way.
Nathan,
What do you think about Ben’s climate science beliefs?
http://blogs.kansas.com/weblog/2008/01/open-thread-120-2/#comment-278227
Cosmos,
When I talk to Ben about them, I will let you know.
Dear Nathan…
Ben already made some comments, at the links here,
http://blogs.kansas.com/weblog/2008/01/open-thread-120-2/#comment-278188
Dear Nathan,
Ben already explained some of his thoughts, at links I posted upthread,
http://blogs.kansas.com/weblog/2008/01/open-thread-120-2/#comment-278188
Is Nathan scared to read Ben’s posts, and make comments?
Cosmos,
I have read them. I will comment on Ben’s comments with Ben if he wants to.
Unless you have something specific in mind?
By the way, what are your credentials again?
Dear Nathan,
And what are your “credentials”?
IIRC, you were getting a EE degree. Did you get it?
Do you not understand the differences between “engineering”, and “science”?
Cosmos,
An Engineering degree is full of science.
Do you not understand what science is or what an Engineering degree consists of?
So what are your credentials again?
Dear Nathan,
So… did you get that EE degree? Yes? No?
And maybe you should ask Ben to explain to you the very obvious differences between “engineering”, and “science” degrees.
What are YOUR credentials Nathan?
I mean beyond being a reactionary, serial liar?
Now I have to go to bed now and you have the forum to say what you like.
We’ve seen what you do with that haven’t we?
Oh and engineering is NOT science. It is application of science and math.
Dang I hope you have a better grip on math than you do science.
cosmos
Posted January 21, 2008 at 1:27 am | Permalink
Dear Nathan,
So… did you get that EE degree? Yes? No?
And maybe you should ask Ben to explain to you the very obvious differences between “engineering”, and “science” degrees.
———————-
That’s very naive cosmos.
Engineering is the application of scientific principles.
Satanists often depict their God as a Goat Head — Is your God Satan, Amway??? That would certainly explain many things on this Blog if that is the case… Still may your God bless you, in what ever ways you conceive of your pet goat to be… And dont forget to feed, water, and milk that goat… That should give you enough to do to occupy your time! Nite now!!
2 points, J R…
First, since Cosmos continually claims that no one’s opinion is valid unless that person is a climatologist, that would also invalidate Ben’s opinion (unless he is going to claim he is a climatologist too).
Second, climatology is also an applied science, and not a direct science.
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