Registered?
Commenting on WE Blog now requires you to be a Kansas.com member. Use the links above to register, if you haven't already, or to log in.Contact us
Follow us
Daily Archives
-
Recent Comments
- Regular on Open thread 11/23
- Regular on Open thread 11/23
- BlueJay on Open thread 11/23
- BlueJay on Open thread 11/23
- Freebird1971 on Open thread 11/23
- Freebird1971 on Open thread 11/23
- BlueJay on Open thread 11/23
- BlueJay on Open thread 11/23
- Freebird1971 on Open thread 11/23
- BlueJay on Open thread 11/23
383 Comments
Anton Uriarte, a professor of Physical Geography at the University of the Basque Country in Spain and author of a book on the paleoclimate, rejected man-made climate fears. “It’s just a political thing, and the lies about global warming are contributing to the proliferation of nuclear energy,” Uriarte said according to a September 2007 article in the Spanish newspaper El Correo. “There’s no need to be worried. It’s very interesting to study [climate change], but there’s no need to be worried,” Uriarte wrote. “Far from provoking the so-called greenhouse effect, [CO2] stabilizes the climate.” Uriarte noted that “the Earth is not becoming desertified, it’s greener all the time.” Uriarte says natural factors dominate the climate system. “The Earth being spherical, the tropics always receive more heat than the poles and the imbalance has to be continually rectified. They change places because of the tilt of the earth’s axis. And, moreover, the planet isn’t smooth, but rough, which produces perturbations in the interchange of air masses. We know the history of the climate very well and it has changed continuously,” he wrote. “It’s evident that the Earth is a human planet, and that being so, it’s quite normal that we influence the atmosphere. It’s something else altogether to say that things will get worse. I believe that a little more heat will be very good for us. The epochs of vegetational exuberance coincided with those of more heat,” he explained. “In warm periods, when there are more greenhouse gases in the atmosphere – more CO2 and water vapour – climate variability is less. In these periods greenhouse gases, which act as a blanket, cushion the differences between the tropics and the poles. There is less interchange of air masses, less storms. We’re talking about a climate which is much less variable,” he added. (Translation) (LINK)
There sure are some boring topics today. And I get it Hank, you don’t buy into the whole global warming thing. I think we have an impact as people, but not that much of one. We are definitely messing stuff up but I think the Earth can fend for itself. Even if that means that the Earth will shut down long enough to get rid of its disease (people). Intelligent folks ought to know that like time and the seasons, the Earth goes through cooling and warming in cycles. These cycles are huge in scope and scale (30,000 yrs for those that believe the Earth might be older than 6000). I’m no geologist or any kind of scientist, I’m just a lowly design engineer but this pattern of hot/cold makes sense to me. But it don’t help to take all of the Earth’s “blood” and burn it up. Let’s demand to grow hemp for our oil and textile needs, oh yeah, ass clowns only think hemp is for them liberal, hippy, commie bastards.
Morning Hank.
Bobby Fisher died in exile.
(Iceland)
Good morning Tracy,
Just heard that on Fox News.
What ever happened to that chess school in Lindsburg?
That was a pretty big deal around here for a while.
The aim of the workshop: to teach diplomats who visit Canadians in foreign jails how to tell if they’ve been tortured. It also listed countries and places with greater risks of torture. The list includes Syria, Iran, Afghanistan, and China. But surprisingly, it also included the United States, Guantanamo Bay, and Israel.
It notes specific “U.S. interrogation techniquies,” which include “forced nudity, isolation, and sleep deprivation.” The U.S. has repeatedly denied allegations by international groups that it tortures prisoners captured in places like Afghanistan and Iraq. However, U.S. officials have refused to comment on the Canadian list.
http://www.propeller.com/viewstory/2008/01/16/canada-puts-us-on-torture-watch-list-ctv/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ctv.ca%2Fservlet%2FArticleNews%2Fstory%2FCTVNews%2F20080116%2Fkhadr_torture_080116%2F20080116%3Fhub%3DTopStories&frame=true
http://www.boston.com/news/world/canada/articles/2008/01/17/canada_puts_us_israel_on_torture_watchlist_report/
· “http://www.boston.com/” /
· “http://www.boston.com/news” /
· “http://www.boston.com/news/world” /
· “http://www.boston.com/news/world/canada”
?
Canada places U.S., Israel on torture watch list
“javascript:wXYc();openWindow(’http://tools.boston.com/pass-it-on?story_url=http://www.boston.com/news/world/canada/articles/2008/01/17/canada_puts_us_israel_on_torture_watchlist_report’,'mailit’,’scrollbars,resizable,width=770,height=450′);”|”http://www.boston.com/news/world/canada/articles/2008/01/17/canada_puts_us_israel_on_torture_watchlist_report?mode=PF”| Text size – + By David Ljunggren
January 17, 2008
OTTAWA (Reuters) – Canada’s foreign ministry has put the United States and Israel on a watch list of countries where prisoners risk being tortured and also classifies some U.S. interrogation techniques as torture, according to a document obtained by Reuters on Thursday.
more stories like this
The revelation is likely to embarrass the minority Conservative government, which is a staunch ally of both the United States and Israel. Both nations denied they allowed torture in their jails.
The document — part of a training course on torture awareness given to diplomats — mentions the U.S. jail at Guantanamo Bay in Cuba where a Canadian man is being held.
The man, Omar Khadr, is the only Canadian in Guantanamo. His defenders said the document made a mockery of Ottawa’s claims that Khadr was not being mistreated.
Under “definition of torture” the document lists U.S. interrogation techniques such as forced nudity, isolation, sleep deprivation and blindfolding prisoners.
“The United States does not permit, tolerate, or condone torture under any circumstances,” said a spokeswoman for the U.S. embassy in Ottawa.
A spokesman for Foreign Minister Maxime Bernier tried to distance Ottawa from the document.
“The training manual is not a policy document and does not reflect the views or policies of this government,” he said.
The government mistakenly provided the document to Amnesty International Canada as part of a court case the rights organization has launched against Ottawa over the treatment of detainees in Afghanistan.
Amnesty Secretary-General Alex Neve told Reuters his group had very clear evidence of abuse in U.S. and Israeli jails.
“It’s therefore reassuring and refreshing to see that … both of those countries have been listed and that foreign policy considerations didn’t trump the human rights concern and keep them off the list,” he said.
Khadr has been in Guantanamo Bay for five years. He is accused of killing a U.S. soldier during a clash in Afghanistan in 2002, when he was 15.
Rights groups say Khadr should be repatriated to Canada, an idea that Prime Minister Stephen Harper rejects on the grounds that the man faces serious charges.
“At some point in the course of Omar Khadr’s detention the Canadian government developed the suspicion he was being tortured,” said William Kuebler, Khadr’s U.S. lawyer.
“Yet it has not acted to obtain his release from Guantanamo Bay and protect his rights, unlike every other Western country that has had its nationals detained in Guantanamo Bay,” he told CTV television.
Other countries on the watch list include Syria, China, Iran, Afghanistan, Mexico and Saudi Arabia.
“If Israel is included in the list in question, the ambassador of Israel would expect its removal,” said Israeli embassy spokesman Michael Mendel.
The awareness course started after Ottawa was criticized for the way it handled the case of Canadian Maher Arar, who was deported from the United States to Syria in 2002.
Arar says he was tortured repeatedly during the year he spent in Damascus prisons. An inquiry into the case revealed that Canadian diplomats had not received any formal training into detecting whether detainees had been abused.
(Reporting by David Ljunggren; editing by Rob Wilson)?
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/01/18/world/americas/18canada.html?ref=world
http://www.canada.com/vancouversun/news/story.html?id=1378bc1a-8523-471e-b43a-9ccd2a9511cf&k=5099
http://news.google.ca/index.html?ncl=1126451947&hl=en&topic=n
So, locally the Share the Season campaign broke all records for donations and being able to help those in need. What happened to the libs crowing about donations being down as proof this country has tanked?
Just as an aside, cosmos will wake up in three or four hours and he will notice that my ’skeptic of the day’ is not a climatologist.
I checked #4 on his list of authors for the IPCC report and it would appear now that the first four authors of the UN IPCC report are not climatologists either.
Still going with what isn’t working, eh Hank?
The IPCC report is a meta-analysis of relevant literature, it is not a list of people gathered by a political operative.
And you still don’t really respond to Cosmos’ direct response to your arguments (the list). He is successful in discrediting it simply because it is easy to discredit.
By the way, your son’s conduct on the last open thread, with his pathetic reiterations of the cosmos is doing ad homs non-argument, was disgraceful.
For those who forgot it, an overview of the Price’s “strategy” for dealing with cosmos.
http://blogs.kansas.com/weblog/2008/01/open-thread-18-2/#comments
Actually, this will be clearer.
http://blogs.kansas.com/weblog/2008/01/open-thread-18-2/#comment-269992
well, I never did see an answer from cosmos about what special qualifications there are for a climatologist has that no other scientist has…
There’re no special qualifications for a dentist to be an orthodontist either.
They just specialize.
There’s one big problem with Senor Professors’ analysis: we don’t have as much CO2 in our atmosphere as we did in times past . . . we have FAR MORE, and it’s steadily increasing.
Interesting how far down in the barrel Hank has to dig to get a counter-view: University of Basque Country. Wow! Those MIT and Stanford guys just have to hang their heads in shame.
Wanna see what Earth will look like if the global warming deniers get their way?
See our sister planet Venus, which has such a thick atmosphere that the surface temperature is hot enough to melt lead.
Wanna see what Earth will look like if the global warming deniers get their way?
See our sister planet Venus, which has such a thick atmosphere that the surface temperature is hot enough to melt lead.
————
I heard that in ancient times, the Venusians actually resembled little coal powered plants and breathed out methane, and farted out CO2.
I think it’s cherry how we just recently (1913) discovered the ozone layer and it was just 20 years ago that we “discovered its hole. Do we know for certain that the hole wasn’t there in 1913?
No we don’t.
Outlander–
Peace be upon you.
And upon you and your household, CapnAmerica.
Throughout history, there have been countless theories that were adopted by the majority of the scientific community that were later proved definitively false. Why do some currently feel that just because there are claims that there is a scientific consensus about a theory (Global Warming), that that theory is unquestionably true?
I find it amazing the hole in the ozone layer was discovered just about the time we had the technology to notice a hole in the ozone layer. Gotta love those NASA guys and their satellites!
Yesterday, Nathan cited the following verse:
Nathan
Posted January 18, 2008 at 1:11 am | Permalink
WS Clark,
Lets look at the verses then…
1 Corinthians 6:9-10 NASB
9 Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals,
10 nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God.
******
Interesting how the fundamentalists–who claim they don’t pick and choose what parts of the Bible to believe as true, they don’t “interprete” Scripture, they just believe it–pick and choose and interprete this verse.
They can’t accept homosexual marriage or homosexual pastors because it is condemned by Paul.
Strange, they had no trouble accepting a fornicating pastor in Jimmy Swaggart. The didn’t reject Bill O’Reilly because he too fornicated with his female producer, they didn’t reject Harry Hyde and Newt Gingerich and Rudy Giuliani for being both fornicators and adulterers, they don’t reject Bush for being a drunkard (arrested for DUI), and Cheney for being a drunkard (arrested twice for DUI).
They don’t reject half the Republican party for being theives (see no bid secret contracts for Halliburton) and the other half for being revilers (Swiftboat Vets and their supporters like Hank Price).
Isn’t it great to see the fundamentalists living up to their self-proclaimed code of “not picking and choosing” which sins they will condemn?
Wanna see what Earth will look like if the global warming deniers get their way?
See our sister planet Venus, which has such a thick atmosphere that the surface temperature is hot enough to melt lead.
-Capn
So did all the deniers live on Venus before they invaded Earth? Venus must have been a wonderful paradise before the deniers destroyed it with cars and coal derived electricity.
rfl:
I don’t feel it’s unquestionably true, but I feel it prudent to treat it like Pascal’s wager.
rfl and outlander–
Obviously, I wasn’t saying that Venus’s tremendously thick layer of atmosphere is caused by humans or even life.
There’s most likely no life on Venus, although it’s possible that some of the sulfur-based life that survives in deep oceans around volcanic vents might survive somewhere on Venus . . . if it’s even there.
So, no, Venus doesn’t show the effect of man-made global warming.
But it does show the direct relationship of thickening the atmosphere with greenhouse trapping gas and global warming.
Mars, on the other hand, shows what conditions are like on a planet with a too-thin (too thin for life) atmosphere.
Intense cold, high winds, punishing solar radiation.
For all the global warming worshipers and priests.
Look what it’s doing now:
Russia warns of emergency as Siberian temperatures dip to -67F…
http://www.allheadlinenews.com/articles/7009739004
Colder winters at the poles are part of the global warming models.
This is perfectly consistent.
And this summer, you’ll see the record heat and the melting of the ground formerly known as “perma-frost,” also consistent with the models.
But CapnHalftruth, since it is true that we all commit sins, are we not instructed to forgive, and to not judge another? Have you not screwed up? Some of the great figures of your professed religion did horrendous things according, to your Bible. Yet after they repented, God was able to use them in a great way. Redemption.
Today many of those great figures would have been locked up and the key thrown away for what they did. No shot at redemption. In this context, perhaps it is good to give second chances to those who demonstrate that they deserve it.
And isn’t it convenient, ye Christian name-caller, that the only thing that is impossible to “repent of” is homosexuality, because it is innate.
Besides . . . even your “repent and be saved” rhetoric rings hollow. If Rudy G. can get divorced and remarried (”but I say to you, any man who divorces his wife and marries another, commits adultry”) as often as he wishes, that’s not true repentance, is it.
Okay, for the benefit of my gay friends, the Obama-McClurkin incident explained:
In Columbia last night, a crowd of more than 3,000 in a packed auditorium cheered and clapped during speeches from Obama aides and taped videos of the Senator and his wife, neither of whom attended, but leaped up for applause and cell phone pictures when McClurkin was introduced. A gay South Carolina pastor, Andy Sidden, gave the prayer that opened the event, a compromise the Obama campaign put together after McClurkin’s appearance was attacked by gay rights activists. Sidden’s prayer noted the importance of people of all races, backgrounds and sexual orientations coming together.
http://blog.washingtonpost.com/the-trail/2007/10/29/post_159.html
Obama’s support of gay rights in Illinois is solid and undeniable. So what is this crap? Leaving aside his general “reaching across” theme, one finds a more obvious, cynical move by a canny, calculating politician.
South Carolina is a state with a large African-American population–folks who tended to really support the Mrs.(i.e. Bill). But unfortunately (and bafflingly), there’s also a tendency for super-religious African-Americans to embrace anti-gay bigotry.
I remember leaving a store in the Wichita Mall, when I saw a bumper sticker on a large car, with the typical “one man-one woman” sentiment. I just happened to be there when the driver stepped into it.
He was a bearded, grey-haired black man in a nice, immaculate suit. It broke my heart. Surely he was old enough to remember the attack dogs and the firehoses, yet could not grasp the hypocrisy?
I gave him a dirty look.
But wait: there’s more! S.C. started out as Edwards’ state to lose, and it still is. No question about it. And it’s full of “socially conservative” ultra-Christian white folks as well, who, despite regressive attitudes toward gays, nonetheless might latch onto birthstate-boy Edwards’s populist message–particularly in light of his waffling on the subject. These folks, too, might like Obama’s not-so-subtle message, i.e., the entirely muddled “big tent.”
So, this, then is the explanation. . Obama has a solid record of supporting gay rights in Illinois, but has made of mess of it while running for president. Wish I could say I was surprised. I think much of his appeal is justified, but let’s face it folks: he’s a politician . And—apparently–is not beyond opportunistic, cold-blooded, calculated, political manipulation. This is a wake-up call for anyone who thinks the man walks on water.
But Obama’s actions is only outrageous in its symbolic implications, nor is he unique in doing this kind of thing. Where is Hillary Clinton on this? She has an 89% rating by the Human Rights Campaign, but where is her tongue? Behind the scences, it appears–politics as usual.
Last week, Clinton aides sent journalists a Huffington Post column criticizing her major Democratic rival, Barack Obama, for a planned appearance with a gospel singer who is hostile to gays. Time blogger Ana Marie Cox posted the item — but added that Clinton had been endorsed by a minister who preaches against homosexuality. The Clinton camp quickly obtained a correction saying that the minister had praised Clinton but not endorsed her.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/10/25/AR2007102502421_2.html?wpisrc=newsletter
The gay community turned out large for Mr. Bill in 1992, and got “don’t ask, don’t tell.”
Al Gore supported domestic parterships in 2000 (not the ‘M’ word), but also selected a religious bigot (albeit a jewish one) for his running mate.
John Kerry ignored the entire Massachusetts delegation to come out against gay marriage, when he was running for president.
John Edwards has waffled on the subject, but finally came out and said the gays deserve the same legal protections as straight people.
As painful as may be to admit, folks, we are living in 1964. The analogy is far from perfect of course (I won’t go into it). But the fact is, it’s still politically acceptable for liberal politicians–and even deemed necessary by some consultants–to throw their gay constituents under the bus.
And I’m not sure what to do about it.
Great–only two links, and “SpamBam” won’t post it. And it’s gone, too, can’t even go back and resubmit.
Is this the default?? Then a million monkeys with a million keyboards could write better software in a week.
Are you a Democrat, a Republican, or a Southerner?
Here is a little test that will help you decide.
The answer can be found by posing the following question: You are walking down a deserted street with your wife and two small children. Suddenly, an Islamic Terrorist with a huge knife comes around the corner, locks eyes with you, screams obscenities, praises Allah, raises the knife, and charges at you. You are carrying a Kimber 1911 cal. 45 ACP, and you are an expert shot. You have mere seconds before he reaches you and your family. What do you do?
THINK CAREFULLY AND THEN SCROLL DOWN:
Democrat’s Answer : Does the man look poor or oppressed? Have I ever done anything to him that would inspire him to attack? Could we run away? Does he have a retarded kid that needs to sign up for free medicaid and a monthly social security check? What does my wife think? What about the kids? Could I possibly swing the gun like a club and knock the knife out of his hand? Did he get enough food stamps this month? What does the law say about this situation? Does the Kimber have appropriate safety built into it? Should we pass another law? Why am I carrying a loaded gun anyway, and what kind of message does this send to society and to my children? Is he unhappy with his government housing? Is it possible he’d be happy with just killing me? Did he not get this month’s Aid To Dependent Children check? Should it be increased? Does he definitely want to kill me, or would he be content just to wound me? If I were to grab his knees and hold on, could my family get away while he was stabbing me? Should I call 9-1-1? Or should we call Hillary? Or should we offer him a free lunch? Why is this street so deserted? We need to raise taxes, have paint and weed day and make this happier, healthier street that would discourage such behavior. This is all so confusing! I need to debate this with some friends for few days and try to come to a consensus.
***********************************************************************
Republican’s Answer: BANG!
************************************************************************
Southerner’s Answer: BANG! BANG! BANG! BANG! BANG! BANG! Click….. (Sounds of reloading) BANG! BANG! BANG! BANG! BANG! BANG! Click
Daughter: “Nice grouping, Daddy! Were those the Winchester Silver Tips or Hollow Points?”
Son: “Can I shoot the next one!”
Wife: “You ain’t taking that to the Taxidermist! I don’t want that on my wall!”
Not that it’s any of your business, but I’m not voting for Rudy. But what he does is between him and God. If I say Rudy, I reject you, you serial groom, what have I done?
Oh, and Capn, I only use the “half truth” moniker when you post an intentional lie, or a half truth.
Colder winters at the poles are part of the global warming models.
This is perfectly consistent.
-Capn
Last I checked the polar ice caps are shrinking because of global warming. It seems like the AGW climate model may be a little off if it predicts cooler temperatures at the poles but in reality the caps are melting.
The article, sums up why Obams allowed the equivalent of David Duke on stage for his campaign:
http://blog.washingtonpost.com/the-trail/2007/10/29/post_159.html
Leaving aside 90% of what I had to say, the bottom line: Obams’s using a cynical tactic to win S.C. White bigots with a populist streak–taken from Edwards. Black bigots–taken from Clinton. Drawing wi with a broad brush, as I just blew 20 minutes on <1> nothing .
In terms of political convenience/necessity, we’re living in 1964. Don’t ask, don’t tell.
CapnAmerica, if you want to calculate the return on the Dow Jones index over a period of years, you need to compound the returns. That would make the rate be even lower than the simple interest type of calculation that you performed.
On the other hand, you’d need to account for the fact that investors have received dividends on those stocks.
It’s not quite the same time period as you cite, but for the ten years ending December 31, 2007, the Vanguard SP 500 index fund (not quite the same as the Dow, but a broader index) returned 5.83%.
Rft–
Global warming models are very complex–it’s not simply that the entire world is going to get hotter all the time.
Global warming models predict that winters may be somewhat colder in some areas than previously, but that will be more than compensated by much hotter summers.
That’s why the polar ice pack is melting overall.
Obviously, it’s not melting NOW because it’s winter.
It seems to make no difference what’s happening, whether it’s warmer, colder, windier, calm, rainy, dry, it’s all due to global warming and the sky is falling, falling, falling.
There is reason to question and study the subject, none for the nearly hysterical reaction.
However, it’s melting in the South Pole much more rapidly than even the modellers had predicted (because it’s summer there).
That’s the problem, AgHawk.
You people don’t question. You learn just enough to find niggling contradictions and split hairs.
“To question” implies seeking to know the truth.
You already have the answer you want, so you deny any evidence to the contrary.
We who are worried about GW on the hand, WISH WE WERE WRONG.
Nothing would make me happier than to discover that the earth is not facing a catastrophic climate change. I’d like to believe that.
The evidence does not support it however.
CapnAmerica posted January 18, 2008 at 10:03 am
““To question” implies seeking to know the truth.
You already have the answer you want, so you deny any evidence to the contrary.”
Exactly! Scientists are the most skeptical people in the the world.
The AGW deniers are like those talking dolls — they just keep repeating their (false) claims over and over and over…
They can’t think logically, and they can’t learn anything new.
This is a great idea, it would also work for hospitals.
some might find this interesting
PRIVATE HEALTHCARE … SAY IT AIN’T SO!
Somewhere across the country, a Hillary staffer is having a breakdown … private healthcare offered directly from doctors? This is going backwards for the universal healthcare nuts. We need more government, not less! But now we have this program in Rhode Island called HealthAccessRI. You pay $30 for a “membership” in a primary care doctor’s practice and you get 24-hour telephone access, sick visits, well child care, check-ups, school and sports physicals, family planning and yearly physicals. Each office visit is just $10. Thirty dollars! That’s less than a cell phone bill or one tank of gas. Now this is not an insurance program – and politicians are already quick to point that out – but it offers an affordable solution for primary care. And it didn’t take government to do it! All it took was a group of doctors. The private sector! There are now 21 participating doctors, brought together by Michael D. Fine who is taking the program statewide.
The government’s reaction? Christopher F. Koller is the state’s health insurance commissioner. He referred to the program as “an interesting experiment.” Then he warns about the horrible fact that this is not insurance. No. It is not. And it never claims to be. But for all of the 120,000 uninsured Rhode Island residents … let’s just take a minute to imagine if every single one of these 120,000 uninsured residents suddenly applied for government healthcare. Imagine the taxpayer money it would take to service those people in an inefficient government system. Now imagine if those people paid $30 to have a primary care doctor. That’s almost $4 million floating around the Rhode Island economy. More demand. More people get jobs. Isn’t that just amazing?
The health commissioner is upset because he thinks people are going to drop their insurance and choose this alternative. That is the people’s choice to make, although power-hungry politicians don’t want that. Here’s a prime example. Rose and Fyed Zia run two convenience stores in Massachusetts. Their doctors happen to offer this HealthAccessRI program. So the family dropped their health insurance and signed up. Of course, it is illegal to be without health insurance in Massachusetts. So the Zias paid the $219 per-person fine, which was cheaper than buying health insurance. In fact, their children now qualify for MassHealth (government healthcare) but their parents passed because they felt like the HealthAccessRI doctors would be a better choice
BG I don’t think libs care what the cost of socialized medicine will be. “Damn the torpedoes full speed ahead!”
Just waiting for, “$10 is a lot of money…..”
Amazing. You allow a city/state to handle health care and it becomes massively affordable. No monolithic enormous government program staffing tens of thousands and costing billions and STILL failing the people.
Are y’all starting to GET IT??? Get the fed out of your life. Let your city/state start handling affairs.
Want a politician that GETS IT? Google Ron Paul.
Full disclosure, from Neal Boortz Web site, but does confirm what can be seen on the Congressional Budget Office.
Once again just interesting reading
WON’T SOMEONE STEP FORWARD WITH THE FACTS HERE?
I suppose that most of you have heard that cutesy little “safety announcement” she delivered on her campaign airplane earlier this week. During that announcement she said “if you’ll look out of the right side of the airplane you’ll see tax cuts for the wealthy … etc.”
Give me a break! Here we go with that “tax cuts for the wealthy” nonsense again. The Democrats love this line … they love it because they know that their protectors in the mainstream leftist media aren’t going to tell the truth on this issue.
So … how about some facts?
Now I’m not getting this information from some right-wing think tank. This comes from the Congressional Budget Office. Hillary has access to this information, as do all members of the media. So … let’s see what the Congressional Budget Office has to say about this “tax cuts for the wealthy” stuff.
First .. here’s a chart you can refer to for verification. This chart was prepared by the Congressional Budget Office. There are two lines on this graph, one for the bottom 80% of taxpayers, the other for the top 1% of taxpayers. The trend there is so obvious that even Democrat voters should be able to see what is going on. The share of federal taxes paid by the evil rich is constantly going up, while the share paid by the bottom 80% is on a steady downward trend. Bear in mind that this chart shows a percentage of ALL federal taxes, not just income taxes.
Now … some bullet points for you to consider:
The richest 1% of households in the U.S. are now paying a record 27.6% of all federal taxes and a record of 38.8% of all federal income taxes.
The richest 1% of households only earn about 17% of all income.
The top 1.1 million households (the evil rich) pay a greater share of the income tax burden than the bottom 90 million households combined.
The chart and the report from the CBO shows that the nation’s tax burden has been shifting away from typical Americans to the wealthiest households since the early 1980s.
You are never going to see this chart or read this information on the news pages of America’s leading left-wing newspapers, nor will you see this information presented on network newscasts. Why not? Because the more the people of this nation understand what is really happening with our tax situation, the less the demagoguery of people like Hillary Clinton — that “tax cuts for the wealthy” line — will work on the voters. Informed voters are the enemies of the MoveOn Democrat Party. The media admits that Hillary appeals to less educated voters. Well, there’s no sense educating these voters. If you do, they might not be Hillary supporters any more?
Something else we need to cover. These evil, filthy rich people that are so much fun to hate … these are the people who invest. These are the people who create the jobs. These are the people who start new businesses. These are the people the very people who hate them will have to depend on for a better job or a growing economy.
Spread the word. The other side is sure getting out the “tax cuts on the wealthy” line. We need to do a better job of getting the truth out there.
BG-
Freedom of choice! The Liberals MUST support it, yes?
My position on global warming is simply, “I have done what I can, and that’s all I’m going to do….I’m not committing suicide physically or financially to reduce my ‘carbon footprint’ now or at anytime in the near future primarily for someone else comfort on the subject”.
Are y’all starting to GET IT??? Get the fed out of your life. Let your city/state start handling affairs.
A charming notion, Sol, but not always practical.
We saw how well that worked in New Orleans.
Hank Price,
If you and Senator Inhofe are fine with sending in a cardiologist to do a urologist’s job, then I’m OK with sending in a Physical Geographer to do a Climatologist’s job.
”Charming notion”
Interesting phrase.
The people of America have become so dependant on entitlements that I believe they think they are entitled to good local, state and federal government without any effort on their part. New Orleans is ravaged by corrupt government; the corrupt government that the people of New Orleans put in power through action or inaction. That being said, the current situation in New Orleans is a direct result of the actions and inactions of the people of New Orleans.
If people quit holding out their hand and start doing some work – researching the candidates and issues – then maybe, just maybe, this nation would work the way it was founded to work.
Bush talked, Dow dropped.
I think a fairly popular liberal senator and president once said
”Ask not what your country can do for you. Ask what you can do for your country.”
The first thing that comes to mind is researching the candidates. Find the candidate that votes consistently and based on the constitution and principle. Find the candidate that tells you the truth and votes accordingly.
How many candidates today can stand up to that kind of scrutiny? So, what can you do for your country? Vote for the candidate that will correct the wrongs of this country and get us back on track.
President Bush OKs Emergency VA Spending
MOAA President VADM Norb Ryan, Jr., USN (Ret), participated in a White House conference call on January 17 during which the President announced he had approved the $3.7 billion in emergency supplemental appropriations passed by Congress in the waning days of 2007.
Under the strange rules of appropriations, Congress authorized the extra money, over and above the President’s budget request. But because it exceeded the budget authority, Congress designated it as “emergency” supplemental spending.
Under the budget rules, the President has the discretion to decide whether or not to spend that extra money. In this particular case, the extra $3.7 billion to meet VA health care and other needs would only be available if the President sent a special budget notice to Congress by January 18.
VADM Ryan expressed MOAA’s great appreciation both to Congress for recommending the much-needed additional VA funding and the President for agreeing to exercise the congressional authority.
The democrats change to John F. Kennedy’s quote:
”Ask not what you can do for your country, but what your country can do for you.”
nickel,
You seem unable to understand the obvious — science is very complicated, and scientists generally work in only one small field.
Even “climatologists” rely on other climate scientists, on issues outside their expertise.
“then maybe, just maybe, this nation would work the way it was founded to work.”
Interesting comment what’s different now from 1776? Can people still push westward claim a piece of land start over, keep 100% of their sweat equity?
Republican slant; Ask not what you can do for your country, but do to your country!
cosmos does not seem to understand that President Clinton, Vice President Gore and 95 members of the United States Senate did not ratify the Kyoto Treaty in 1997, because the treaty was inherently flawed.
Keep 100% of their sweat equity?
No way annie. If you make over the liberal threshold in AGI, then 30+ percent MUST belong to the federal government. States and locals grab another percent.
We are no longer then nation founded over 200 hundred years ago.
“From each according to his ability, to each according to however much he can grab.”
It is important to realize that in order to keep the masses supporting one party – they must promise their sheep every increasing handouts.
Look bak to 1912 Annie. Not real difficult. Back when there was no federal reserve and no income tax. Remember? Back before we sold America out.
Keep your hand out thought Annie.
rfl posted January 18, 2008 at 9:07 am
“Throughout history, there have been countless theories that were adopted by the majority of the scientific community that were later proved definitively false. Why do some currently feel that just because there are claims that there is a scientific consensus about a theory (Global Warming), that that theory is unquestionably true?”
The scientific consensus re AGW is not just a “claim”. There is no peer-reviewed science refuting AGW.
The “theory” of AGW is now happening, and being observed. Faster warming of upper Northern latitudes, increases in night-time temperatures, cooling of the stratosphere, rising ocean heat content, etc.
Natural factors (solar, etc) alone do NOT explain what Earth’s climate has done during the recent decades — natural AND anthropogenic factors DO explain the observations.
‘The Scientific Consensus on Climate Change’
Naomi Oreskes
http://www.sciencemag.org/cgi/content/summary/306/5702/1686
‘The Consensus on Global Warming: From Science to Industry & Religion’
http://www.logicalscience.com/consensus/consensus.htm
“”Ask not what your country can do for you. Ask what you can do for your country.””
Actually, JFK stole the line; it’s from Oliver Weldell Holmes.
That’s an aside, however. This is more interesting, and a sign the world is quite unpredictable and that between now and November is forever in politics. The key opening line:
“If you’d said in January 2007 that Congress would fully fund the Iraq War, that there would be no timelines, and that a pro-war group fronted by Ari Fleischer would humiliate MoveOn… well, you’d be smarter than me.”
But that’s where we are.
http://reason.com/blog/show/124479.html
If people quit holding out their hand and start doing some work – researching the candidates and issues – then maybe, just maybe, this nation would work the way it was founded to work.
I agree that researching the candidates is a good idea.
As for “holding out their hand,” well, I’m not sure what you mean, but you’re since using that stock phrase on anyone who questions you, regardless of context, I care even less.
Wake me up when something intelligent happens.
Good commentary today.
http://www.kansas.com/205/story/284473.html
Going to war with Iraq was, to my mind, an unconscionably stupid blunder, but that doesn’t mean that I don’t want the best possible outcome, and for that matter that I think we should just drop out and leave things as bad or worse than they are.
Who is asking for a hand out sol? The moose household shells out 28% in federal income tax.
The conclusions made by Cosmos and anybody else on this blog are only as good as the credentials of the authors who have published the peer reviewed papers.
However ANYBODY can read plainly the conclusions contained in the most ardent AGW’st paper and read clearly that no climatologist can say anything more regarding the anthropogenic cause of GW than that it the most plausible explanation. Which means that thy could technically be wrong if there are explanations that they do not understand yet. Of course they could be right as well. The continuous procrual of evidence will either vindicate them or have them doing back flips sometime in the future.
Which means that those on this blog who propose that AGW it is absolutely proven are jumping the gun a bit.
All the so called deniers want to do is to keep that which is called proven in the category of science that is indeed proven. A consensus is nothing more than an object of future study.
NewsRadio 980 KMBZ “has learned that Kansas Governor Kathleen Sebelius has named Douglas County District Judge Stephen Six as KS Attorney General. He will assume the role effective February 1st.
Six replaces outgoing AG Paul Morrison, who announced his resignation amid a sex scandal in December.”
Cap you said something upthread that is begging an answer. You mentioned Jimmy Swaggart, Newt Gingrich, Rudy … Well the principles of the republican party police our own.
Swaggart’s big TV ministry went away when the support went away. Newt should have been a shoo in for the nomination after all he had the credentials but he isn’t even running. The masses expressed their disapproval of his actions with his ill wife while romancing his secretary on the side. And Rudy well back in May the media and political pundits had him as a shoo in for the nomination. He isn’t even an also ran anymore. He is dead in the water.
Why is this? There was no organized movement from the republicans to torpedo his nomination. It is neverless destroyed.
I’ll let you draw your own conclusions.
Hank, very good post on GW this morning. I had just finished getting a little humor from a picture on Drudge this morning. It was of 400+ GW advocates standing out in a snowstorm in DC with icecicles dripping from their ears holding signs that they demanded something be done about GW.
Regular — Gore SIGNED the Kyoto Treaty… The Senate – led by Republican leadership at the time, refused to Ratify it! Lets keep the facts straight!! Eh??
The facts are straight Chas. No need to spin the facts. The Kyoto Treaty was inherently flawed.
From Wikipedia:
On July 25, 1997, before the Kyoto Protocol was finalized (although it had been fully negotiated, and a penultimate draft was finished), the U.S. Senate unanimously passed by a 95–0 vote the Byrd-Hagel Resolution (S. Res. 98),[66][67] which stated the sense of the Senate was that the United States should not be a signatory to any protocol that did not include binding targets and timetables for developing as well as industrialized nations or “would result in serious harm to the economy of the United States”. On November 12, 1998, Vice President Al Gore symbolically signed the protocol. Both Gore and Senator Joseph Lieberman indicated that the protocol would not be acted upon in the Senate until there was participation by the developing nations.[68] The Clinton Administration never submitted the protocol to the Senate for ratification.
——
Note the last line
Thanks Outlander for keeping the facts straight.
Outlander — Note THIS line >>>
“the U.S. Senate unanimously passed by a 95–0 vote the Byrd-Hagel Resolution (S. Res. 98),[66][67] which stated the sense of the Senate was that the United States should not be a signatory to any protocol that did not include binding targets and timetables for developing as well as industrialized nations or “would result in serious harm to the economy of the United States”.”
Why would the Administrtion have submitted the treaty to the Senate with a vote like that???
And Gore STILL signed it!! Even if it wasnt ratified, Gore signed it as US VP!! That says the USA liked the treaty, but it didnt go FAR enough to please the Republican controlled Senate!!
You will notice that Gore symbolically signed the Treaty, AFTER the Senate voted against it!!
Geez… you wanna pick more nits??
I have appointments today… I’m outta here!!
Yeah that 95-0 vote sounds pretty partisan Chas.
If the economy under Bush is in such great shape, why is George offering an economic stimulus package to try to keep us out of a recession?
Until just minutes ago (yesterday) the Republicans were saying that everything was just hunky-dory.
Huh?
Chas.
Posted January 18, 2008 at 12:04 pm | Permalink
Regular — Gore SIGNED the Kyoto Treaty… The Senate – led by Republican leadership at the time, refused to Ratify it! Lets keep the facts straight!! Eh??
Chas what would happen if you went one whole day without your strawman argument that ‘the repub’ did it.
You were proved wrong by outlander.
Rage – I have noticed the “Amazing Disappearing Post” phenomenon – much to my frustration.
My solution is to copy to my clipboard every post that is more than one line long.
It sucks to have to do that, but it sucks even more to lose a post.
Of course, if I forget to copy, that is when the system launches my post into the Cyber Lost and Found bin.
Never fails…………………..
Kyoto was a start – nothing more. And yes, it was flawed. However, it was still better than nothing.
In America, you can drink underage to the point of being legally drunk, smoke pot, and stand on top of a tiger cage fence….
And blame someone ELSE when the tiger eats you…
Tiger Attack
“Sousa’s father, Carlos Sousa Sr., said Dhaliwal told him the three stood on a 3-foot-tall metal railing a few feet from the edge of the tiger moat. “When they got down they heard a noise in the bushes, and the tiger was jumping out of the bushes on him (Paul Dhaliwal),” the documents said.
Police found a partial shoe print that matched Paul Dhaliwal’s on top of the railing, Matthews said in the documents.
Toxicology results for Dhaliwal showed that his blood alcohol level was 0.16 — twice the legal limit for driving, according to the affidavit. His 24-year-old brother Kulbir Dhaliwal and Sousa also had alcohol in their blood but within the legal limit, Matthews wrote.
All three also had marijuana in their systems, Matthews said. Kulbir Dhaliwal told police that the three had smoked pot and each had “a couple shots of vodka” before leaving San Jose for the zoo on Christmas Day the affidavit said.
Police found a small amount of marijuana in Kulbir Dhaliwal’s 2002 BMW, which the victims rode to the zoo, as well as a partially filled bottle of vodka, according to court documents.”
CNN
Any bets on who will win the lawsuit?
In the old days a dollar bounced around in the American economy like a pin ball game. Now it’s like a cannon ball pointed overseas.
WS as someone on here wrote yesterday the economy goes in a cycle. Always has, always will. We are in the downward slide of that cycle. The economy is still good to the extent that the unemployment is only .3 of one percent above full employment (4.7%). Certain areas, the auto industry for instance is in that down cycle.
The good news is that for Wichita at least times are good. We are rated as the second best city in the US to find good employment. Second only to Salt Lake City. This is good news. Homes here are still selling. Industrial spending is still up. Wichita has historically been about 10 to 12 months behind the country so I look to see a downturn here later. The good news is that this is predicted to be a short recessionary period so by the time it reaches us the rest of the nation will be in recovery. It matters not who is prez. Congress actually has much more power where the economy is concerned.
The stimulous package being prepared is akin to a B12 shot. Short term energy until the body catches up.
The economy is good.
KsGrm, are you suggesting that the Republican leadership in 1997 is a myth?? Of course, it was voted out 95-0 — But not because of anything the Democrat MINORITY could have done to stop it… Sorry, you lose on that phony stab!! Try to keep your facts straight?? Just for ONE day??
I repeat… GORE signed Kyoto… The Senate neither ratified, nor failed to ratify Kyoto… That makes Regular’s statement somewhat false — even though he wont admit that!! LOL
Actually, the Senate has never voted on the Kyoto protocol. It was never submitted, as Clinton knew that 67 votes weren’t there.
The Byrd-Hagel resolution was a way of ducking the issue, and merely stated the sense of the Senate was that the United States should not be a signatory to any protocol that did not include binding targets and timetables for developing as well as industrialized nations or “would result in serious harm to the economy of the United States” .
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kyoto_Protocol
“The economy is good.”
So why is Bush out to spend even more money that we do not have?
I thought that Republicans were all about free markets and fiscal restraint.
I guess I was wrong.
“The good news is that this is predicted to be a short recessionary period so by the time it reaches us the rest of the nation will be in recovery.”
{KsGrm}
You darned tootin it will be a short time period… just until the Democrats take back the White House, nd win a few more seats in the House and Senate!!
American Way my money would have to be on those poor boy ‘victims’. Afterall there were in a zoo, a public place and therefore should have been protected from the other animals.
Nevermind that families with small children had left the area because of the vulgarities coming from the mouths of the ‘victims’. That is one reason it took longer to get help to them. There were no witnesses to call immediately.
I’ve laid my bet – hope I’m not right.
Thanks, WS, I will do that.
I can see I’m several posts behind the thread, so I think I’ll just get back to work! :)
Chas could you outline for me what the dems will do when they take the ‘prez’. I am ready to see this miracle they are going to work. Other than raising taxes what do you think they will do?
The Senate – led by Republican leadership at the time, refused to Ratify it!- Chas
The Senate neither ratified, nor failed to ratify Kyoto.- Chas
Damn Chas, you’re having a tennis game with yourself!
Chas one more thought before you formalize your response. When money (taxes) is taken out of the hands of the moneyspenders (citizens) and put in the hands of government. How does this expand the economy?
WS look at my question to Chas above. When money is put in the hands of consumers then they consume. When goods are consumed then new products have to be manufactured. If these are made in American plants then jobs are created. With the right circumstances the economy is given that B12 shot.
Service areas are also helped because more will eat out, take their families to the movies, take more trips, etc… It is a stimulous that has been shown to work if inflation doesn’t rear it’s ugly head first. Always a risky move.
“How does this expand the economy?”
I noticed today that McCain has said he will cut taxes again if he is elected (fat chance) president.
What I have yet to see from the tax cutters is any comprehensive plan to address deficits, debt and unfunded mandates.
Now, before we hear that tax cuts will stimulate the economy and raise revenues, remember that we have not had a balanced budget – nonetheless a surplus – under a trickle down economy.
So, when do we begin to actually PAY our bills?
I know I ask these question frequently, but I have yet to get a real answer.
So???????????????????????
ksgrm,
Should I assume that you believe that every person listed on Marc Morano’s “400″ list IS a skeptic, and also is a “credible source” refuting AGW?
You never replied to my post to you yesterday.
http://blogs.kansas.com/weblog/2008/01/open-thread-117/#comment-276425
“Regular
Posted January 18, 2008 at 11:17 am | Permalink
cosmos does not seem to understand that President Clinton, Vice President Gore and 95 members of the United States Senate did not ratify the Kyoto Treaty in 1997, because the treaty was inherently flawed.”
===================
Upon further review, Regular’s entire statement quoted above, is inherently flawed, because it is totally FALSE….
The Treaty was not ratified, because it was never voted on!! NOT what Regular says above…
And, further, I had my initial statement on the Treaty flawed, because I had momentarily forgotten about the 95-0 vote!!
So, what I later stated is true: The Senate neither ratified, nor failed to ratify the Kyoto Treaty!!
I’m outta here —
Ummmm Grm, Where did I mention anything about the Dems raising taxes, OR expanding the economy?? We have to first FIX all the crap that is wrong NOW, before anything can be expanded!! More later!!
“With the right circumstances the economy is given that B12 shot.”
Why does the economy need a shot if everything is going so swimmingly?
And what about that free market approach?
ksgrm, you have identified what I believe is the risk in the proposed action; inflation. What I fear will occur from the proposals is the “extra money” being spent on the same things the money is being spent upon now, with no real gain in goods and services. This will add another layer to the inflationary pressures already present in the economy, without any “real” growth occurring. I hope I’m incorrect, but to me, a recurrence of stagflation is as likely as the result of the action proposed as is ending any recession in which we are in or may be in in the future. While I know that in an election year this would not be a popular policy approach, the better track would be to ride out what is believed to be a short and mild recession rather than adding fuel to the inflation fire. As always, just my 2 cents (in “real” terms).
American Way my money would have to be on those poor boy ‘victims’.
Ksgrm, and it is really was sad that these poor little boys, were enjoying a traditional Christmas afternoon smoking dope and drinking vodka.
And those horrible reports that the boys were “taunting” the tiger? Why everyone knows that when you are drunk and high, and stand on top of a tiger enclosure fence – that you don’t make any noise. They were probably just getting in position to sing Christmas carols to the nasty tiger.
Their lawsuit will be for multi-millions.
Where’s Max? It appears the Clintons are up to more dirty tricks and using the legal system to suppress Nevada voters:
“When Democratic officials in the Western state wanted to have their voice heard in the presidential primary season, they decided nearly a year ago to create nine at-large caucus sites so thousands of workers in the gambling hotels along the Las Vegas Strip could cast ballots.
Because they work 24 hours a day¬ and Saturday is the busiest day of the week for the state’s biggest economic engine, they would have no shot at going home to caucus and get back to work in time.
The DNC approved the plan in May, and virtually nothing was said about the changes by anyone.
That is until the largest and most organized union in the state, the Culinary Workers Union 60,000-strong Culinary Workers Union Local 226 endorsed Sen. Obama president..
Then, three days later, the 28,000-member Nevada State Education Association chose to get its lawyers involved, filing the suit on behalf of six state residents. The rationale? The at-large caucuses would give the casino employees an unfair advantage since other workers couldn’t caucus at their jobs.
The teachers union hasn’t officially endorsed anyone, but several of its high-ranking officers are backing Clinton, and the suit was seen as an effort to squash her opponent’s biggest political “get.”
The senator from New York and former President Clinton steadfastly argued they had nothing to do with the suit, that it was all up by the teachers, but in their talking points, they were siding with the teachers’ suit.” CNN
VT you have indeed hit the nail on the head. I think if this weren’t an election year we would be riding out this downward trend. Maybe another small cut in the interest rate but certainly not the bail out we are looking at with the tax rebates.
Presidents really are not responsible for nor should they take the credit for economy trends. Congress and the senate are much more involved.
I was just wanting Chas to give me an idea of how ‘he’ would solve the economic problems as he has stated the next democrat prez will do.
Good post.
rfl posted January 18, 2008 at 11:50 am
“Which means that thy could technically be wrong if there are explanations that they do not understand yet. ”
And they could “technically be wrong” about the theory of gravity. Do you want to do a test to prove they’re wrong?
I just have to wonder what the “Tiger Boys” were thinking when that big cat jumped out of her enclosure and started chasing them.
As crude and nasty as it may be, it reminds me of the joke about the two hikers worried about grizzly bears…………
The first hiker tells the second, “I don’t have to be able to outrun the bear, I just have to outrun you!”
My apologies to anyone offended by my crude attempt at humor.
ksgrm,
Do you believe that George Waldenberger is an AGW denier?
“Presidents really are not responsible for nor should they take the credit for economy trends.”
So why did Tankerless Todd Tiahrt blame the recession of 2001 on Bill Clinton?
He even referred to it as the Clinton Recession during his reelection bid in 2002.
WS the following is one of the best reports I have read on the debt. It doesn’t lay the blame on the dems or repubs but on both parties which is where it belongs.
“From 1970, debt continued to accelerate – straight up – - the cause of which, as later shown in this report, was due to socialization of the economy, as consumptive social spending as a share of the economy sky-rocketed upward. The catalyst for such expansion, therefore, is clearly laid at the doorstep of the birth of the ‘Great Society’ of the President Johnson era – from which it continued to expand forever upward.
By the end of fiscal year 2007 debt exceeded $9 Trillion, nearly half of which occurred just in the 1990’s despite the added revenue from 2 record tax increases in the 1990s.”
http://home.att.net/~mwhodges/debt_a.htm
I was a strong demo until the late 80’s so unfortunately I have been a large part of the problem on both fronts.
Anyway an interesting article which really lays out our federal debt.
WS factually it was a Clinton recession simply because he was the prez when it started just as this one if it developes will be Bush’s even if it doesn’t become full blown until the next prez’s term.
“factually it was a Clinton recession simply because”
The recession of 2001 began in March 2001 – George was president.
ksgrm
Hello…? You still have not replied to my post to you yesterday.
http://blogs.kansas.com/weblog/2008/01/open-thread-117/#comment-276425
WS recessions have markers that define when they start. That recession started in April 2000.
” The unemployment rate bottomed at 3.8 percent in April 2000, and started deteriorating steadily from there (during the Clinton administration).
The fed funds rate — the overnight interest rate administered by Alan Greenspan and the Federal Reserve — peaked at 6.5 percent in 2000, and had to be lowered in an emergency move on January 3, 2001, “in light of further weakening of sales and production” (during the Clinton administration).
As the chart below shows, GDP growth fell off a cliff in the third quarter of 2000 (during the Clinton administration). Despite the shock of the 9/11 terrorist attacks, growth started to revive in the fourth quarter of 2001 (during the Bush administration).”
All markers indicate this was a Clinton recession. Not really important except those are the facts.
http://www.nationalreview.com/nrof_luskin/luskin200405050850.asp
IF THIS doesn’t get attention from the Press at least thru this weekend, the press isn’t doing it’s job!
At least, the WE should devote 1 Blog Topic to:
Judicial Watch Releases Records Re: Hillary’s Health Care Reform Plan
Internal Memos Detail Creation of Government “Interest Group Database” to Collect Personal Data on Health Care Debate Activists
(Washington, DC) – Judicial Watch, the public interest group that investigates and prosecutes government corruption, today released records obtained from the Clinton Presidential Library related to the National Taskforce on Health Care Reform, a “cabinet-level” task force chaired by former First Lady Hillary Rodham Clinton during the Clinton administration. Specifically, these documents come from the White House Health Care Interdepartmental Working Group.
Clinton fans can read it and weep at:
http://www.judicialwatch.org/judicial-watch-releases-records-re-hillary-s-health-care-reform-plan-0
Neither Reagan nor the Bushes ever achieved a balanced budget, despite “trickle down” economics – an economic program that Bush Sr. referred to as “Voodoo Economics” during the 1980 GOP primary season.
When? That is the question, when are we going to begin to be fiscally responsible and actually address deficits, debt and mandates.
Even with very optimistic projects from the Bush Administration, there will not be a balanced Federal budget until at least 2012.
Not good enough……………..
CLINTON CULTURE OF CORRUPTION CAMPAIGN CONTINUES:
Among the highlights of the documents released by Judicial Watch:
• A June 18, 1993 internal Memorandum entitled, “A Critique of Our Plan,” authored by someone with the initials “P.S.,” makes the startling admission that critics of Hillary’s health care reform plan were correct: “I can think of parallels in wartime, but I have trouble coming up with a precedent in our peacetime history for such broad and centralized control over a sector of the economy…Is the public really ready for this?… none of us knows whether we can make it work well or at all…”
CLINTON CULTURE OF CORRUPTION CAMPAIGN CONTINUES:
Among the highlights of the documents released by Judicial Watch:
• A “Confidential” May 26, 1993 Memorandum from Senator Jay Rockefeller (D-WV) to Hillary Clinton entitled, “Health Care Reform Communications,” which criticizes the Task Force as a “secret cabal of Washington policy ‘wonks’” that has engaged in “choking off information” from the public regarding health care reform. The memorandum suggests that Hillary Clinton “use classic opposition research” to attack those who were excluded by the Clinton Administration from Task Force deliberations and to “expose lifestyles, tactics and motives of lobbyists” in order to deflect criticism. Senator Rockefeller also suggested news organizations “are anxious and willing to receive guidance [from the Clinton Administration] on how to time and shape their [news] coverage.”
CLINTON CULTURE OF CORRUPTION CAMPAIGN CONTINUES:
Among the highlights of the documents released by Judicial Watch:
• A February 5, 1993 Draft Memorandum from Alexis Herman and Mike Lux detailing the Office of Public Liaison’s plan for the health care reform campaign. The memorandum notes the development of an “interest group data base” detailing whether or not organizations “support(ed) us in the election.” The database would also track personal information about interest group leaders, such as their home phone numbers, addresses, “biographies, analysis of credibility in the media, and known relationships with Congresspeople.”
NOW we know what the Clinton’s were doing with 1,000 FBI files in the White House.
“These documents paint a disturbing picture of how Hillary Clinton and the Clinton administration approached health care reform – secrecy, smears, and the misuse of government computers to track private and political information on citizens,” said Judicial Watch President Tom Fitton. “There are millions more documents that the Library has yet to release. The Clintons continue to play games and pretend they have nothing to do with this delay. The Clintons should get out of the way and authorize the release of these records now.”
http://www.judicialwatch.org/judicial-watch-releases-records-re-hillary-s-health-care-reform-plan-0
Sorry Cosmos I’m really not ignoring you. I’m not a scientist as I have said. Not sure if you are because I have never heard you say. I am an accountant and economics is my real calling. I love it. I only research GW as it impacts our economy as a nation.
GW might or might not be real. I really don’t know. I have read arguments on both sides which were very convincing. I personally have done my part to lessen my carbon footprint because I would never willingly damage this globe we live on.
Beyond that I really can’t argue science with you. Sorry.
The stimulous package is a good beginning, but the recession will not end until the Mortgage crisis is fixed. Not until the Millions of consrtruction workers have somthing to build and the so called evil bankers start lending Capital to companies and to the private sector. And believe it or not, this whole crisis lies directly on the governments shoulders, if you don’t think the house and senate members didn’t know how loans were being handled then you are goffy in fact they were the ones encouraging the lending behaviors that were being done.
CLINTON CULTURE OF CORRUPTION CAMPAIGN CONTINUES:
For those who want MORE then the highlights posted, scroll to the bottom page at:
http://www.judicialwatch.org/judicial-watch-releases-records-re-hillary-s-health-care-reform-plan-0
The full documents are in the PDF files.
We get it Max.
You are a male chauvinist and want women kept in their place. You have an irrational fear that if a woman was in a position of power, you would automatically forfeit your masculinity and be stripped of your peni er,,,gun.
J R,
How does the Clintons being corrupt = Max being a male chauvinist?
Boy it was a nice blog day until the attack form JR arrived gotta go, it is all down hill from here on out..
ksgrm posted January 18, 2008 at 1:11 pm
“Beyond that I really can’t argue science with you. Sorry.”
Okay, so your reply to my post,
http://blogs.kansas.com/weblog/2008/01/open-thread-117/#comment-276425
… is that it is “science” when a person is incorrectly listed on a list of AGW deniers, and asks to be removed from that list.
Ksgrm, you have a very odd definition of “science”.
How long did y’all think the gravy train of Housing Prices would last?
http://graphics8.nytimes.com/images/2006/08/26/weekinreview/27leon_graph2.large.gif
Oh LOOK another fan!
Nah it’s just nutty old James crouching in the shadows waiting to put on a show.
Max doesn’t get it. Nobody reads his stuff anymore. He has SUCH an irrational hatred of Senator Clinton that anything he says is just stuff talk radio didn’t have time to lie about.
anti-J R
Posted January 18, 2008 at 1:18 pm | Permalink
J R,
How does the Clintons being corrupt = Max being a male chauvinist?
————————————————
THAT is the STANDARD Clinton defense used.
Whenever the Clinton’s are criticized, their response is not to defend themselves (because they can’t), but to attack the accuser.
JR is just following his fearless leader’s example.
WS what you are saying is what you are seeing in the media. I accept that. My premise is if you would look at the deficit in comparison to the increase in the GDP you would see a completly different picture.
Say for instance I got a big raise (more tax revenues brought about by a tax cut to consumers) and instead of making $50,000 a year I am now making $250,000 a year. This is a 500% increase. I buy a new house and hot new car and increase my debt 100% to what it was when I was only making $50,000. My debt is bigger for sure but my ability to repay it is also 5 times greater than before.
Tough times have made it harder to pay down the deficit (911, Iraq War, etc..) but in reality the deficit isn’t out of proportion to what it was before.
The deficit is something I would like to see go away but I’m not putting it at the top of my list right now.
Again, the Defense of Clinton is to attack the accuser.
Now Max is irrational and full of hate.
PREDICTION:
There will be NO credible defense of the Clinton library documents.
The ONLY possible approach is to attack those who have exposed them.
Ok Cosmos. I think his name should be removed from that list and someone should apologize to him. But – that still leaves 399 scientist who let their names remain. That tells me there is a large contingent of scientist who don’t agree with you on GW.
Max this bring a whole new light to HIPAA a democrat product (Teddy boy authored it) to protect the privacy of citizens. Privacy is only important when I want to find out if insurance has paid on my husbands hospital bill but not if you are an enemy of the Clintons. Got it. Thanks
JR,
I am still waiting for you to explain what it is you accuse my father of.
Saying my father said something to your son which bashed you and then saying you will not repeat it because you are better than that defeats the purpose.
You already introduced the notion that my father said something and now you wont back it up.
You are a liar JR.
How exactly did this come up in conversation with your son nearly 2 years after the fact?
Were you coaching your son into saying something which didn’t happen?
How sad.
Here’s a historical graph of New Housing Construction to put the “Crisis” of today in perspective.
Note how almost every year after 2000 is HIGHER then all years in the 1990’s. (Bush years HIGHER then Clinton years)
And now in 2008 we are sinking down to the level of the Clinton years.
Housing Starts 1959 to 2007:
http://web-xp2a-pws.ntrs.com/content/media/attachment/data/econ_research/0611/document/ec110306.pdf
ksgrm,
What about the 22 “economists” on Hank Price’s list?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:KimDabelsteinPetersen/Inhofe#Economists
Do you consider all of them “credible sources” re climate science?
I was having a “friendly” debate with a hardcore Republican about Clinton once, and he stated that Clinton should have been impeached for Ruby Ridge alone. He had heard that on the Rush Limbaugh Comedy Hour and was absolutely sure that Clinton personally gave the order to shoot, resulting in the death of Randy Weaver’s wife, his son and a Federal Marshall.
I asked if he really thought that the President should have been impeach for that…….
Absolutely was the reply.
I asked if he had written his Congress Critter, demanding the impeachment of the President.
Absolutely was the reply.
Then, I asked, why wasn’t George HW Bush impeached, since he was the President August 21st of 1992 when the incident at Rudy Ridge, Idaho occurred?
Of course he was quite flabbergasted to finally realize that Clinton wasn’t the president, but was the Governor of Arkansas at the time.
Why do I recount this story?
Because the Clinton Haters are still armed to the teeth and determined to smear anything Clinton, true or not.
Bill Clinton wasn’t my favorite president, but he certainly isn’t the Devil Incarnate, as some Republicans would have you believe.
Max Hillary can’t be having a good day. First the Nevada ruling on the culinary union members then this. Look at Bill’s picture on Drudge. He looks as if he just lost his best frient.
Ya don’t get it Max.
Folks like you? You’ve set it up.
Anytime ANYONE has had an issue on george bush? What do we get?
BILL CLINTON!
But the thing is? It works both ways.
I am not even going to read your links. Know why.
GEORGE BUSH!
That’s the only time you’ll see me put that sob in caps.
Just yesterday Max, we had a thread about the corrupt bush administration DESTROYING information about its corruption. I didn’t see your moral red blooded American outrage over there.
Maybe you’ve got something. Probably not. I really don’t care. Your side perfected selective outrage as to corruption in government. Me? I just follow your example.
Good point KSgrm.
And another reason to remain anonymous on blogs IF you are criticizing the Clintons.
[b] CapnAmerica [/b]
Nice try at completely mischaracterizing things earlier.
First of all, a life of homosexuality is a life of sin. It is not one act, it is a constant life in disregard of God.
My church doesn’t accept people who divorce as Pastors either.
Those people you mentioned have all at one time or another asked for forgiveness and no longer do what it is they did which was a sin or attempt not to.
Not only that, but you transitioned your argument from accepting homosexual marriage and homosexual preachers to accepting people in general. Nice bait and switch. I caught it though.
There is a huge difference in the two.
I have always said that as Christians we are to accept and love homosexuals. That doesn’t mean we have to allow them to be Pastors or that we have support the government in recognizing marriage for them.
Also, you try to say I pick and choose verses when I have said several times now that the doctrine for homosexuality being a sin comes not only from a few verses which most clearly say it is wrong, but also from the entire Biblical context of what a Godly relationship is between a man and woman.
Why you must insist on trying to mischaracterize what I have said and believe instead of trying to engage in a reasonable and honest debate I don’t know.
JR,
Did you ever do that big excavation of yours to find all these “vile attacks” on your family you accused my father and I of?
Liar.
SW that is a strawman argument. I haven’t bashed Clinton or his policies. I have stated facts and backed those up with facts. This is the reason there are fiscal conservatives. The policy that seperates more demo and repub voters isn’t the social points we argue here so frequently but the monetary policies which are the real difference.
When all is said and done informed republicans won’t look at a candidates views on abortion, same sex marriage, or anything else that belongs to the state law makers. They will look at their financial policies and tendencies. That will determine their vote.
WS I think I was a dyslexic there.
“WS what you are saying is what you are seeing in the media”
Nonsense. Completely. My thoughts on the deficits and debt are the same that they were in 1980, when I briefly thought about voting for Ronnie because he said that he WAS GOING TO BALANCE THE FEDERAL BUDGET.
That didn’t happen.
The GDP in 2006 was $13.5 trillion.
By 2012, the National Debt will be between $11 and 12 trillion.
The interest alone will consume 35% of Federal revenue, even at optimistic rates of growth.
God knows what they will be in we hit a deep recession.
Regardless of “sunny skies” statements from Republicans, the debt and deficit issues must be addressed and they must be addressed now.
The endless sea of red ink HAS TO STOP!
We were promised that it would stop under Reagan. After more than 25 years (17 under Republican presidents) we have to put a collective finger in the dike.
Great photo of Bill Ksgrm!
Here’s the story Drudge links to:
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/01/18/us/politics/18bill.html?_r=1&oref=slogin
Could have a contest for captions under the photo:
Oh is getting back in the White House worth all this crap?
Do I really want to be in the same house with Hillary for another 8 years?
WS good luck with that. It hasn’t happened under any prez including Clinton. Look at the figures. They don’t lie. Both parties have a vested interest in keeping the deficit alive and kicking. If they didn’t they would put an end to the welfare state they have created. Ablebodied men and women would have to find jobs. Jerry Springer would go off the air because no one would watch him if his major audience was at work every day.
As I said before – won’t happen. The women in this demographic are the very one Hillary is the most popular with. Do the research.
It has been a good morning but lunch is calling and I have to go. Hope to be back sometime today.
JR and Cap please don’t destroy this thread with your vitriol. Phil will just remove it. The whole thing.
“SW that is a strawman argument”
I assume that was direct towards me.
No, it is not a strawman argument – I retold a story about a conversation I had with my father, actually.
The point was strictly the “Republicans will believe anything negative about the Clintons” phenomenon.
Why else would Jerry Falwell be able sell thousands of copies of his “Clinton Body Count” video?
Sorry, merely telling the truth.
One fast thought: When in Iowa last weekend I was impressed with the lack of urban sprawl I saw. A native of the Cedar Falls area told me it was controlled by a state provision controlling how much land could be sold to individual buyers. It is 135 acres. It is little hard to build developements when houses have that much space between them. Good for them!!
I won’t pursue it Nathan. And you can spin that as evasion if you like. It’s a matter of the words out of a kids mouth near onto 2 years after the fact. All he said was, “Hank said bad things about you”.
I lend it no credence. I didn’t when I brought it up. And I only brought it up in a discussion as to how uncivil we are to each other. You and yours and me and mine. I leave it to readers of yesterdays news or anyone else who wants to go look.
In this recent go round, I speculated that your families position in defending fossil fuels might be based in vested financial interest in same.
For that, I got my financial (to you) inferiority laughed at. I was called a “festering sore on the butt of society” among other things.
And the really awful thing is that some of the things you have posted about me I only give further air by reminding everyone of them. I have never used some of the vile slurs that you and Hank do Nathan.
So let’s do this? Gloves off. Do your worst. If you can go lower than you already have then go there. I’ll be only just a little above you I’m sure. No more explanations, apologies or qualifications. I hate you, you hate me.
I respect your truth WS just don’t accept it as mine.
ksgrm,
What about the 22 “economists” on Hank Price’s list?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:KimDabelsteinPetersen/Inhofe#Economists
Do you consider all of them “credible sources” re climate science?
And not that anyone cares Nathan. But I’ll correct the record.
You made a reference recently about me “lying about you and a meetup”.
That took some figuring out. Well? I didn’t lie. But I was wrong.
I said you came to a meetup where food and drink was provided and brought nothing to it but yourself. I did not see when you informed me how I was wrong about that. Apparently you did get drinks and stuff. So I was wrong and I say so.
From:
http://www.realchange.org/hillary.htm#sources
Hillary is a unique case among candidates, in that she (and Bill of course) were investigated more closely — by well-funded government prosecutors with subpoena power — than any politician in earth’s history. She’s clearly not as bad as the biggest Hillary-haters think — hell, I’m not sure Charles Manson is as bad as they think Hillary is. Whatever your politics are, forget about her having 80 mysteriously dead friends, or faking Vincent Foster’s suicide. Didn’t happen. And I’ve yet to see a shred of evidence that she’s a lesbian, though I’m not sure why her haters think that’s such a damning allegation. She did marry an infamously sexy man, after all.
Of course, we expect more from presidential candidates than not murdering people. And she has some significant and troubling scandals that get overlooked with all the foo-farah over crazy conspiracy theories. If you’ve got a scandal that’s missing here, please clue me in. But remember, NewsMax, blogs, and Matt Drudge are not reputable sources. I need some real evidence backing it up. Click on the allegation of your choice
Geez, I think I’m watching the Wizard of Oz, it’s got flying monkeys, the strawman, tin pot politicians and politicians without a heart.
toto, we’re not in Kansas anymore…
JR,
The only one between us who has said they are better than anyone is you. Not I.
The only one between us who has sais they hate anyone is you. Not I.
Stop projecting yourself onto me.
I don’t hate you. You are not worth wasting my energy on in hating. Sorry to dissapoint you.
I am left in an odd place. I know my fathers character and he would not have said something bad about you behind your back to your son. I asked him and he did not.
Yet, 2 years later, all of a sudden you son is telling you he did.
So, I am not going to call you liar or your son a liar.
I will only say that my father didn’t do that and it is not in his character to do so.
More interesting reading, even if they pass the fines to the companies involvede it will still hit the taxpayers thru higher prices.
just though it was a good read
KYOTO AND THE TAXPAYERS
So what happens to countries that signed the Kyoto Protocol but fail to meet greenhouse gas emissions limits? Fines. Lots of fines. Most, if not all of the money paid for by none other than the taxpayers of those countries.
Let’s take Japan, Italy and Spain for instance. They collectively owe $33 billion in fines for failing to reduce greenhouse gas emissions. And why did they fail to meet the requirements? Because they underestimated economic growth and future emissions from factories and utilities. In other words … their economies grew better than they expected, and thusly they are punished.
So now Spain must pass 40% of the cost for extra emissions on to those successful businesses that helped its economy grow. The other 60% will come directly from taxes. The businesses, of course, will pass their fines on to the consumers of whatever it is the provide or produce. In Italy, the taxpayers will pay 75% of the bill for extra permits … just to fit into the Kyoto Protocol. And Japanese taxpayers must pay for two-thirds of the nation’s excess.
In one more case, taxpayers in Ireland will shell out more than €270 million so that Ireland can “buy its way” into meeting the Kyoto agreement.
Aren’t you disappointed that the U.S. hasn’t become a part of this huge income redistribution scam by now?
Before we go .. another hint. Warming stopped a decade ago. Over the past three years it has actually become cooler
JR,
Also, you are the one who constantly tries to mischaracterize my family and their money.
When you do, I have no qualms firing some shells back at you.
It is rather simple. Stop commenting about my family and I won’t call you a festering sore on the butt of society.
If you want to play the class warfare victim card, then I will treat you like you act.
ksgrm,
Speaking of inflationary pressures as we were, I noted in a follow up article on cnn.com that the earliest any rebates would be issued would be in June, presuming the Congress and the President come to quick agreement. If, as you and I think at present, the recession is short and shallow, the recovery will then be underway, with the additional stimulus provided by the rebates just adding to other factors, IMHO, and inflation will be a larger concern.
Of course, if the recession is somewhat more severe than is currently thought by most, and if, e.g., cost of gasoline, groceries, etc., continue to rise, then the additional money will be used by many to meet these demands, and little to no “growth” effect will be realized from the rebates as proposed. This would not do much to temper any recession, but might not add to inflation, either.
BG,
Good report.
It appears that Chas and those of his ilk, wanted to sign a blank contract.
Lucky for us, we had drivers in the Senate that were paying attention to the road ahead. :)
Is it me or do recessions appear to hit towards the end of a decade?
Interesting read for those who are economically knowledge challenged like me.
How Stuff works.
Recessions:
http://money.howstuffworks.com/recession.htm
BG posted January 18, 2008 at 2:26 pm
“Before we go .. another hint. Warming stopped a decade ago. Over the past three years it has actually become cooler”
Too bad this blog doesn’t have a credibility rating system, to warn readers about people like BG, who post falsehoods.
See graphs,
‘Hit You Where You Live’
http://tamino.wordpress.com/2008/01/11/hit-you-where-you-live/
“For NH land, the three hottest years on record are the last three years: 2007, 2005, and 2006, and last year (2007) was the hottest.”
And look carefully at the long-term trends, especially since the 1970’s.
Policy
Although The Wichita Eagle is not responsible for the content of the comments on this blog and has no obligation to monitor them, it reserves the right to remove any comments that are threatening, libelous, obscene or otherwise objectionable.Please refrain from personal attacks and using other posters’ nicknames. Report possible comment violations to weblog@wichitaeagle.com.
WE EDITORS
I know you don’t want to post any good news on Iraq, so I will help:
http://www.reuters.com/article/topNews/idUSN1724900020080118?feedType=RSS&feedName=topNews&rpc=22&sp=true
U.S. says Iraq forces could control provinces this year
cosmos
Posted January 18, 2008 at 2:39 pm
“For NH land, the three hottest years on record are the last three years: 2007, 2005, and 2006, and last year (2007) was the hottest.”
The Northern Hemisphere is not global.
Well if you insist in a soap opera Nathan..
Hank posted that I brag about doing drugs.
Hank posted that I live with my Mom.
Hank posted that I don’t get out of bed til afternoon.
Hank and you ridicule my financial status even on threads where I am not even posting.
Hank posted that I am a bad parent.
That’s just what I remember off the top of my head. You, you’re nastier.
You have called me a coward, a bigot, a liar, a traitor, a pornography addict, a child pornography addict, and have suggested I am a child molester.
Again, just off the top of my head.
I fight mean Nathan. But I don’t fight dirty. Not here anyway.
What are you holding that I have put on you?
Oh and when you flaunt and brag your wealth (Hi from London bloggers!) and make sport of others pain, you invite attack.
BG, you missed one big part of the Kyoto story.
Those fines you mention in your post, those BILLIONS of Dollars in fines, who gets the money?
Once you answer that question, you circle back to the Global Warming nuts.
“I know you don’t want to post any good news on Iraq”
If things are going so well in Iraq, Nathan, why do the Iraqis say that it will be four years before they can take responsibility for their own internal security and another six before they can defend their own borders?
It has never been a question of our military capabilities – if we can’t “defeat” Iraq then we are in big trouble – it is a matter of can the Iraqis do anything other that kill each other?
The other question is simple: has all this been worth a trillion dollars, 4,000 dead and countless wounded?
My answer is no.
Regular — enough of your LIES… I never saie on way or the other if I favor, or not favor the Kyoto protocols… If you think you can find such a statement, be my guest… Idiot!!
Choice Hillary quote from the way back machine.
“F*** off! It’s enough that I have to see you sh**-kickers every day, I’m not going to talk to you too!! Just do your G*dam job and keep your mouth shut.”
-From the book “American Evita” by Christopher Ande rson, p. 90 – (Hillary to her State Trooper bodyguards after one of them greeted her with “Good Morning.”)
Classy Dame!
Wasn’t a high placed Iraqi official saying just the other day that US troops would be needed there at least until 2018?
Maybe they are getting wise to US politics in Iraq? The likelihood is, the next American President will be a Democrat who will work toward getting us OUT of Iraq. Maybe Iraq is sensing it is on a GASP timeline for getting the house in order?
AAAMEN JR!!
JR,
Grow up crybaby. Of course I have called you a few names here and there. No worse than anything that is done by you here. I never claimed to not call you the occasional name.
I think you left out nitwit, dumb, and stupid. You can add crybaby to the list now as well.
You still post lies. I never called you a pornography addict, a child pornography addict, nor did I ever suggest you were a child molester.
I am waiting for you to point out these “vile attacks” on your family you accuse me off.
You don’t fight mean, you fight like a crippled retard. It is sad and pathetic. I almost feel bad pointing it out.
“U.S. says Iraq forces could control provinces this year”
GOOD! Then all US combat troops can come home!
‘Global Temperature Land-Ocean Index’
http://data.giss.nasa.gov/gistemp/graphs/Fig.A2.lrg.gif
More graphs at,
http://data.giss.nasa.gov/gistemp/graphs/
Ben,
Obviously you didn’t read the article at all.
The Iraqi forces will most likely assume control, but their maturity will still take a few years to take hold.
They will need help with logistics and other things until then.
That is the timelines to which several of you refer to.
The ability to assume control of their territories doesn’t mean they are able to front a defensive force capable of defending their borders yet.
Once again, that will take some time as well.
The POINT is that progress is being made, attacks are down, the terrorists and insurgents are not as sucessful and they are being caught and killed.
Good news.
That is the point.
Why you liberals are so unable to EVER recognize any good is beyond me.
Who started the whining here Nathan?
You restarted a fight if you check the record.
I’ll fight you on the issues. Like I said, gloves off do your worst. I’ll TRY and keep up.
Regardless of how y’all feel about pulling out of Iraq, your Democrat leaders are NOT pulling the US out.
The Dem rhetoric of course is otherwise, but why then do the Dems:
1. Keep funding the war 2 or 3 times every year?
2. ClintonObamaEdwards now say it will be 2013 before most US troops are out of Iraq?
Keep complaining Dems, but your Dem Politicians are the ones who Authorized the War, Funded the War, and Continue to Fund the War.
We be in Germany, Italy, Japan, Korea, Bosnia, the Philliphines, and elsewhere for some 50+ years now.
Why y’all so surprised that we will have bases in Iraq for many, many years?
JR,
Whining is not it. You are a liar, I am calling you on it.
I am not going to sit here and watch you lie about my father and I.
Chas one more thought before you formalize your response. When money (taxes) is taken out of the hands of the moneyspenders (citizens) and put in the hands of government. How does this expand the economy?
It does not, but then neither will the Government’s concept of a tax cut. The principle thought that by either reducing the tax burden on the industrialists will allow them to put more money into the expansion of their businesses. Or with be passed along to the employees which is the larger quotation of the “moneyspenders”.
Has been shown that such does no occur, in a mindset where money has the value of only a way of keeping score. Then any money allowed is kept from being spread out through the economy to be held as chips on the table.
Judging from their pass concept of what had been called a tax cut, I would have to see in writing what this current thought is. If it is in-line with the concept that by only holding out a portion of the total taxes due but by no means a total relief from that tax. This works on the “sugar rush” principle, at first it would cause a sudden influx of money into the economy. But once the rush is over it leave the economy at a lower stance then what cause the influx to begin with.
But either thought does nothing to elevate the problem in the economy, no more then the current rush of a drug does to elevate the desire of the drug addict. Our currency is too fluid, our spending to unbalanced and the stimulants of that situation only furthers the condition. The current prevailing thought is like helping someone out of debt by giving them a new credit card.
“Why you liberals are so unable to EVER recognize any good is beyond me.”
You obviously did not read my post, Nathan, but even you would have to agree that TEN MORE YEARS is just not going to cut it.
Ten more years would make it the longest war in American history – longer than Vietnam, five times as long as the Second World War, almost as long as the J R – Nathan War.
Fifteen years in Iraq will nearly bankrupt the US.
……………. and that is despite assurances before the War that Iraqi oil would pay for the conflict.
All for what?
To depose a two bit dictator that couldn’t even defeat his next door neighbor even with WMD over a ten year period.
Hardly worth it to me………….
Yes Max the real estate bubble is clearly during the bush admin., along with the economic downturn created by it.
“We be in Germany, Italy, Japan, Korea, Bosnia, the Philliphines, and elsewhere for some 50+ years now.”
And how many of the troops stationed at those bases are involved in active combat?
Answer – zero.
When is the last time a soldier stationed in Japan was killed or wounded in combat with the Japanese?
No Nathan, you are the liar. Either that or someone has been trolling your nic. I didn’t start this today and I am going to finish it. Some of the stuff you or someone using your nic posted about me was seen by posters I DO respect. I’ll let the record stand. And I won’t play anymore me and you here unless it is to a topic bigger than us.
WS Clark,
Those timelines are not the status quo.
They are talking about troop reuctions at the end of this year.
Over the next ten years we will see more troop reuctions and more Iraqi involvement.
How long did it take us to transform Japan? Germany?
How many troops do we still have there?
My post did not show up and now it said I have already said that! Hello writerdog calling earth… can you hear me earth?
MAX — you are simply amazing… You put up stuff on the Clintons that dates back 15 years to 1993, and then act as if it happened yesterday!! Do you realize how stupid that looks?? Keep up old man!! 1993 is over!! BILL is no longer President… George is… GEt over it!!
And why do the Dems vote for the war (wrong term, but I will use it) — Because they dont have enough VOTES yet to over ride anything else, and… get this… they want to keep the TROOPS SAFE until we DO get them back home!! The funding they are approving is for TROOP SAFETY!! NOT for furthering Bush’s agenda!!
BTW — I havve heard plenty of sacrosanct garbage from the Right Wing about how the Dems want our troops to “surrender and withdraw” — Which is, of course, a total oxymoron!!
IF our troops would Surrender, there could and would be no withdrawal!! Look up what surrender MEANS!! Withdraw, YES!! Like Edwards said the other night, withdraw the troops to some where like Kuwait!! And then watch and see what happens!!
Surrender?? Lay down arms, and be taken by AQ??? You’re nuts!! NO democrat yet has EVER said such a thing!! and none will!! That is Right Wing baiting and nonsense!!
JR,
Where did I lie?
You are the one who said I am making “vile attacks” on your family.
LIE.
You are the one who said I called you a child pornagraphy addict.
LIE.
You are the one who said I called you a child molestor.
LIE.
You tried to attack my character the other day on the last meetup I went to.
At least you admitted you were wrong on that one.
I am not going to let you get away with these lies JR.
Now, all of a sudden, after 2 years, you say your son is telling you my father bad mouthed you behind your back.
What is your agenda JR?
You are a liar.
“They are talking about troop reuctions at the end of this year.”
Yeah, Nathan, reductions all the way down to the pre-surge level…….
And what are our troops doing in Germany and Japan?
They certainly are not engaged in combat or even police patrols of the German and Japanese citizens.
Fifteen years……………..
How many more dollars, Nathan?
I’ll give YOU credit here Nathan.
Some time ago, I asked you how long you saw a need for troops in Iraq. That was more than a year ago. YOU were more honest than the administration has been and said you thought it would be 10 years or so.
Was that or what we are hearing now what bush told America to expect?
Didn’t the defense Secratary say it would only be a few months?
Didn’t bush say “mission accomplised”?
They meant for us NEVER to get out of Iraq.
They lied.
Now, they are trying to condition a short attention span America to a permanent garrison in Iraq. And they are STILL lying
WS Clark,
And there will continue to be more reductions over the next 5 years.
As the stability of the government takes hold, as the Iraqi military grows in maturity, things will scale down.
It is not going to happen over night.
It will take time, just like in Japan, just like in Germany.
Nathan — give it some thought — given the nature of this strange Blog, it is entirely possible that somebody trolled your Nic, and said some nasty things about JR and his son using YOUR name!! It can be done, and has been done to others… including me!!
JR could be right… Perhaps if you would simply concede that possibility, your “war” could end somewhat peaceably???
We are reading you here writerdog.
BTW — Nathan — I too have seen some extremely vitriolic things posted under your Nic aimed at JR… I just figured that was between you and him… But, perhaps somebody has stolen your Nic, to urge the battle forward — for some sick, sick, reason!! Just a thought!!
Chas,
JR is the one making the accusations. When he concedes that he is either wrong or a liar then I will accept that.
I know exactly what he is talking about on some of his accusations and he is a LIAR. No mistake, no trolling.
Nathan — just one pertinent thought… Japan and Germany were NATIONS we were fighting… NOT an idealistic fragmented religious sect like AQ!!
There IS no NATION for us to peaceably settle like in Japan and Germany. That is where your logic is terribly weak!!
One other thought — How long does it take the USA to get somebody from raw recruit to the front lines?? Isnt it about SIX WEEKS?? What is taking the Iraqi’s so blessed long??
Chas,
We are still talking about Iraq, right? A nation, no?
Nathan — If I have seen some of the slurs aimed by your Nic at JR, and others have seen them as well; how does that make JR a liar?? Now you seem to be admitting that those were, indeed, your slurs?? Which is it???
Chas take a clue. This is between JR and Nathan. Not JR, Nathan and Chas.
An BTW Hillary Clinton is running for prez as your representative. What she didn in 1993 is very relevant. What time zone are you in?
Iraq — a nation, Yes, of course… BUT, not an enemy Nation such as Japan and Germany!! The AQ is our enemy, and last I noticed AQ is not in control of ANY Nation directly!!
So, you cant equate Japan, Germany, and Iraq!! To do so is simply spurious!!
Chas,
I don’t know where you are getting your information from.
It takes anywere from 1 day to 1 year to get a recruit to boot camp.
Then it takes anywhere from 6 weeks (airforce) to 13 weeks (Marines) to compelte boot camp.
Add another 3 months to 18 months for school training in your particular MOS.
Then add 2-3 months of predeployment training.
Then you can go to Iraq.
That is from a nation which has made the process an art form and is constantly perfecting it.
Iraq on the other hand is starting from scratch.
“It will take time, just like in Japan, just like in Germany.”
It certainly didn’t take FIFTEEN years in either Japan or Germany, Nathan.
……………. and we were told that Iraqi oil would pay for all of this – so why does Bush have to go back to the well, time and time again?
Pre-war reports indicate that the Bush White House thought we would defeat Saddam in TWO WEEKS and be out of country in SIX MONTHS.
Bush told Pat Robertson that there would be NO American casualties.
And all of this for what?
Chas,
Allow me to repost it:
You are the one who said I am making “vile attacks” on your family.
LIE.
You are the one who said I called you a child pornagraphy addict.
LIE.
You are the one who said I called you a child molestor.
LIE.
You tried to attack my character the other day on the last meetup I went to.
At least you admitted you were wrong on that one.
I am not going to let you get away with these lies JR.
Now, all of a sudden, after 2 years, you say your son is telling you my father bad mouthed you behind your back.
What is your agenda JR?
You are a liar.
Nathan?
I have afforded you may have been trolled. Like I say, there are others who saw the posts.
Whether they are still there or not I don’t know. The way posts get removed, a bonedig might just be a big waste of time.
I’ll let the record stand. If you want to pursue this, do it on your own. As you see, others are getting interested too. This will not end well for you. Your fault or not the original posts or not if you keep it going.
Iraq was defeated by May 1, 2003 – nearly five years ago.
Germany was defeat in May (?) of 1945, Japan in August of 1945.
We certainly were not still in combat operations five years after those wars.
And now we are talking bout TEN MORE years!
ksagnostic,
Thank your for your 7:38 am post,
“For those who forgot it, an overview of the Price’s “strategy” for dealing with cosmos.”
http://blogs.kansas.com/weblog/2008/01/open-thread-18-2/#comment-269992
You very accurately describe the Price’s strategy.
For example, here is a recent post, responding to my links from the world’s top climate scientists in the IPCC reports, etc.:
Hank Price posted January 17, 2008 at 10:00 am
“Sometimes I’m a little embarrassed about picking on cosmos like I do. What if it turns out that he is a prepubescent sixth grader crouched in his mommy’s basement as he cut and pastes his responses from the political left-wing web sites that he uses as his responses?”
People who cannot support their opinions with facts often resort to false personal attacks.
Good god it’s like he’s 3 years old.
#
Chas.
Posted January 18, 2008 at 3:19 pm | Permalink
One other thought — How long does it take the USA to get somebody from raw recruit to the front lines?? Isnt it about SIX WEEKS?? What is taking the Iraqi’s so blessed long??
——————
If you are talking about U.S. Military, that time frame ain’t gonna happen.
Army has basic training, Advanced Infantry Training, Specialty Training and then they are considered a combat ready soldier. Probably about six months.
Most all of the military services are similar.
Then, you have Officer/NCO advanced leadership, strategy, training. Advanced specialty training, specialize weapon or technical training.
It takes about six years on average to fully train an individual where they can lead, perform, plan and execute duties.
I imagine that time frame would apply to U.S. training foreign troops as well.
It takes even longer to train senior NCO’s and field and general officers to be able to see the “big picture.”
Gentlemen, I may be the least likely winner of a Nobel Blog Peace Prize, but let me just say please let this J R – Nathan feud end, here and now.
When you get into a pissing contest, the best you are going to get out of it is wet shoes.
Come on, let it go.
But — Regular & Nathan — Iraq already HAD such trained people. i know it doesnt take six years to get somebody from recruit to front lines… Good lord, man, it happened in far less time than that to many of my friends who were killed in Nam, and to my father’s friends killed in WW II
Just noticing Hank and Tracy’s mention of Bobby Fisher dying today. Also heard it on the radio. I recently read some rant that Bobby Fisher wrote. Does anyone know, did he go psychotic?
Not sure about that Steven — But I do know this is a sad day in the Chess world!! Fisher will be terribly missed!! He should not have had to die in some foreign nation the way he has apparently done! Guess we shall have to wait for more news!
In WW II, Chas, Americans were trained, deployed, saw combat and were back home, all within three years.
My father was drafted in late ‘42, flew 54 missions in the Pacific and was home by July of ‘45.
“Does anyone know, did he go psychotic?”
He was psychotic before he went into exile.
Sorry.
JR,
I was not trolled. The things you accuse me of you know are a lie.
I have explained it to you 3 times now and you still make the same accusations.
That is why you are a liar.
Sorry WS Clark, I usually would let it go, but this time I am done. JR wants to post lies about my father and I, and I am not going to put up with it.
If he wants the feud to be over, he can retract those accusations of his.
“But — Regular & Nathan — Iraq already HAD such trained people.”
But they were Bathists. Bremmer, I believe, made the decision independently to not have Bathists in positions of power. These were the people who ran the country under Saddam. We purposefully decided to not use these human resources which was an unfortunate decision and one that has delayed the rebuilding of Iraq.
Chas,
Front line combat is old stuff – it doesn’t happen anymore.
Even Al Qaeda spends years training its recruits.
If you paid attention from the old video footage from the first Gulf War, the “trained” troops in Iraq were not well trained at all, had poor discipline and very low morale.
Training is one of the reasons, the U.S. and its allies kicked Iraq’s fanny in a short time in the first Gulf War. Everyone knew their job and knew it well.
Restarting a country from ground zero like what is occurring now, will take even longer as it is several times more difficult than any modern day scenario, including WWII.
My father was in WWII and went to four different technical schools before he was considered finished training. That was over a 1.5 year period.
Chas,
We currently have over 500,000 people trained and employed in the Iraqi secuirty forces.
What is it that you are not grasping here?
We basically started from scratch in rebuilding their military capabilities and police capabilities.
Read the article I posted.
I’m off to do a bonedig. And I’m gonna email some folks I think saw it all.
You are a liar or you were trolled Nathan.
And this thread shows you want it pushed.
Game on.
“We currently have over 500,000 people trained and employed in the Iraqi secuirty forces.”
Well, against a few hundred dead-emders in their last throes they should have no trouble at all.
JR,
Push away JR. You are a liar and I have explained myself 3 times now and even apologized once, which you accepted.
Ben,
Did you read the article yet or are you still in one sentence trite mode?
Nathan,
I can’t even remember what “lies” you are referring to.
That was not an invitation to remind me, but instead I’m making the point that this fight has gone on longer than it seems to be worth.
Evidence in the preliminary hearing against Planned Parenthood’s Overland Park second-trimester abortion mill indicates that, contrary to repeated public denials, Planned Parenthood abortionist quacks committed post-viable abortions in at least 23 cases, without complying with required viability tests and documentation, and undoubtedly in violation of the Kansas post-viable abortion ban. Furthermore, Planned Parenthood is accused of submitting falsified medical records in a cover-up.
- – -
Contrary to recent false claims, legalized abortion has actually led to higher rates of crime and increased murder rates. This occurred because a higher percentage of children grew up in single-parent homes during the years following Roe v. Wade, as respect for human life and for the institution of marriage both declined.
While single parents may have the best intentions, they cannot alone do the same job of parenting as two full-time parents.
“We basically started from scratch in rebuilding their military capabilities and police capabilities.”
Why wasn’t this foreseen by the war planners PRIOR to the invasion and why didn’t they plan for it?
The American public was never told that the engagement could/would last for fifteen years! We were never given any prognostication that it would ever take this much time or this much money or this many lives.
Had the American public and Congress been given this information before the fact, Bush would have never received an authorization to invade Iraq, AS A LAST RESORT.
And all of this could have been avoided had Bush waiting a few more months until the inspectors had finished their work.
End of story.
Chas you defending Bobby Fisher? You know what he’s done since winning that great big chess match?
As to the Relevence of what Hillary Clinton did while in the White House, AND while leading her National Healthcare initiative (which flopped) in 1993 is VERY relevent today.
Why? (I learned this from John Edwards, so consider this being written in a Southern accent)
1) Hillary is claiming 35 years of experience on her resume to qualify her to be POTUS.
2) 8 of those 35 years were spent in the White House. She can’t take credit for time served if she isn’t going to take the blame for what she did when she was there!
3) Her TACTICS used are very disturbing when you consider she wants the most powerful political office in the country. Laws likely were broken, but who cares?
4) Documentation regarding Hillary’s 1993 Health Care plan role out are part and parcel of her present day campaign for President. National Healthcare (n.k.a. HillaryCare!) is the very HEART of her campaign.
Not relevent Chas? You are out of your mind if you think these Clinton Library documents are not relevent. Why was she hiding them for so long?
And Chas, that Iraq war funding non-sense we’ve debated to death.
You are either intentionally misleading people or you are too stupid to know better, that a minority bunch of Republicans CANNOT force a majority bunch of Democrats to VOTE FOR IRAQ funding!
Your choice: Liar or Idiot.
“that a minority bunch of Republicans CANNOT force a majority bunch of Democrats to VOTE FOR IRAQ funding!”
But the President can veto the war funding bill and Congressional Democrats do not have enough votes, without Republican participation to override the veto.
And the Democrats will not leave troops in the field without at least enough funding to food, cloth and protect them.
A little known Clinton Scandal:
HIV sufferers protest Clinton
UK demonstrators hold Bill accountable for deadly Arkansas prisoner-blood scandal
——————————————————————————–
Posted: May 11, 2006
11:35 a.m. Eastern
http://www.wnd.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=50159
Jeez, Max, you talk about Hillary like she is your ex-wife.
Clark, the ONLY way Bush can veto a war funding bill, is if the Majority Democrats PASS a war funding bill to fund the Iraq War.
Duh.
Now Clark, even Hillary isn’t as bad as my Ex.
http://www.baltimoresun2.com/talk/showthread.php?t=127143
Hillary Rodham Clinton: An Analysis Worth Reading
_____
“I thought she was the most gifted person of our generation.” Bill Clinton
An Analysis Worth Reading
By Dick Morris, former political advisor to President Bill Clinton
If you happen to see the Bill Clinton five minute TV ad for Hillary in which he introduces the commercial by saying that he wants to share some things we may not know about Hillary’s background . . .
beware . . .
As I was there for most of their presidency and know them better than just about anyone, I offer a few corrections;
Bill says: “In law school Hillary worked on legal services for the poor.”
The facts are: Hillary’s main extra-curricular activity in law school was helping the Black Panthers, on trial in Connecticut for torturing and killing a federal agent. She went to court every day as part of a law student monitoring committee trying to spot civil rights violations and develop grounds for appeal.
Bill says: “Hillary spent a year after graduation working on a children’s rights project for poor kids.”
The facts are: Hillary interned with Bob Truehaft, the head of the California Communist Party. She met Bob when he represented the Panthers and traveled all the way to San Francisco to take an internship with him.
Bill says: “Hillary could have written her own job ticket, but she turned down all the lucrative job offers.”
The facts are: She flunked the DC bar exam, yes, flunked, it is a matter of record, and only passed the Arkansas bar. She had no job offers in Arkansas, none, and only got hired by the University of Arkansas Law School at Fayetteville because Bill was already teaching there. She did not join the prestigious Rose Law Firm until Bill became Arkansas Attorney General and was made a partner only after he was elected Arkansas Governor.
Bill says: “President Carter appointed Hillary to the Legal Services Board of Directors and she became its chairman.”
The facts are: The appointment was in exchange for Bill’s support for Carter in his 1980 primary against Ted Kennedy. Hillary then became chairman in a coup in which she won a majority away from Carter’s choice to be chairman.
Bill says: “She served on the board of the Arkansas Children’s Hospital.”
The facts are: Yes she did. But her main board activity, not mentioned by Bill, was to sit on the Wal-mart board of directors, for a substantial fee. She was silent about their labor and health care practices.
Bill says: “Hillary didn’t succeed at getting health care for all Americans in 1994 but she kept working at it and helped to
create the Children’s Health Insurance Program (CHIP) that provides five million children with health insurance.”
The facts are: Hillary had nothing to do with creating CHIP. It was included in the budget deal between Clinton and Republican Majority Leader Senator Trent Lott. I know; I helped to negotiate the deal. The money came half from the budget deal and half from the Attorney Generals’ tobacco settlement. Hillary had nothing to do with either source of funds.
Bill says: “Hillary was the face of America all over the world.”
The facts are: Her visits were part of a program to get her out of town so that Bill would not appear weak by feeding stories that Hillary was running the White House. Her visits abroad were entirely touristic and symbolic and there was no substantive diplomacy on any of them.
Bill says: “Hillary was an excellent Senator who kept fighting for children’s and women’s issues.”
The facts are: Other than totally meaningless legislation like changing the names on courthouses and post offices, she has passed only four substantive pieces of legislation. One set up a national park in Puerto Rico. A second provided respite care for family members helping their relatives through Alzheimer’s or other conditions. And two were routine bills to aid 911 victims and responders which were sponsored by the entire NY delegation. Presently she is trying to have the US memorialize the Woodstock fiasco of 40 years ago.
Here is what bothers me more than anything else about Hillary Clinton. She has done everything possible to weaken the President and our country (that’s you and me!) when it comes to the war on terror.
1. She wants to close GITMO and move the combatants to the USA where they would have access to our legal system.
2. She wants to eliminate the monitoring of suspected Al Qaeda phone calls to/from the USA.
3. She wants to grant constitutional rights to enemy combatants captured on the battlefield.
4. She wants to eliminate the monitoring of money transfers between suspected Al Qaeda cells and supporters in the USA.
5. She wants to eliminate the type of interrogation tactics used by the military & CIA where coercion might be used
when questioning known terrorists even though such tactics might save American lives.
One cannot think of a single bill Hillary has introduced or a single comment she has made that would tend to strengthen our country in the War on Terror.
But, one can think of a lot of comments she has made that weaken our country and makes it a more dangerous situation for all of us. Bottom line: She goes hand in hand with the ACLU on far too many issues where common sense is abandoned.
“And the Democrats will not leave troops in the field without at least enough funding to food, cloth and protect them.”
Duh.
You did this to yourself Nathan. Clearly you were NOT trolled. I walked away from that fight. I am not walking away today. You said what you said, there were witnesses, and I TRIED to leave it at that. YOU are the liar.
I apologize to other posters. I tried several times to stop this personal crap as this thread shows.
I will not be called a liar BY a liar.
Nathan
Posted December 25, 2007 at 6:19 pm | Permalink
JR,
I am not “speculating” on your motives.
I am commenting on your actions here, which ring of utter insincerity.
The “poster” which you have been talking about and continue to do so has a name. Not using the name doesn’t change the fact that you are indeed talking about him.
You have yet to add one substantive thing to this conversation other than trying to demean me or my father.
Shouldn’t you be looking at all your underage teenage girls websites getting your jollies right about now?
#
cosmos
Posted December 25, 2007 at 6:24 pm | Permalink
Nathan,
Do you consider a person has been sedated into a coma by doctors a “vegetable”?
#
Nathan
Posted December 25, 2007 at 6:29 pm | Permalink
Cosmos,
Both my father and I were quoting the article in the Paper which did refer to her as being in a vegetative state.
#
J R
Posted December 25, 2007 at 6:32 pm | Permalink
Ya know what Nathan?
You’re right.
I shouldn’t have reposted that cruel line without attribution.
Here let me go back and say what I should have.
Hank? Are you SURE you meant that last little shot at the end of your post? You say you are a Christian and on this of all days your last sentence there comes off as rather classless, mean, and unneccesary.
Your father did a nice job of demeaning himself and you are doing a nice job of keeping the ball rolling and demeaning yourself as well.
AND you want to post your own little bit of nastiness.
FINE.
Gloves off.
This one I walk away from.
I’ll just let you stand in our own excrement.
Throw another shot like that last and we go ten rounds. And I mean here or anywhere you would like.
Merry Christmas.
#
Nathan
Posted December 25, 2007 at 6:35 pm | Permalink
JR,
You came into this thread with the gloves off and when I called you on it you pretend like you were not even talking about us.
Lets play your little semantics game some more!
I didn’t say anything bad about you JR, I only asked you a question.
Now where have I heard that before?
#
CapnAmerica
Posted December 25, 2007 at 6:44 pm | Permalink
Shouldn’t you be looking at all your underage teenage girls websites getting your jollies right about now?
Posted by: Nathan
*****
Nathan, that is a serious illegality. An allegation like that sends law enforcement kicking down your door and confiscating your hard drive.
You were way over the line on that one, bub.
Leave em in the field!
I thought the Democrats were going to pull the troops out and bring them all back home!
“5. She wants to eliminate the type of interrogation tactics used by the military & CIA where coercion might be used when questioning known terrorists even though such tactics might save American lives.”
So does John McCain, and he WAS tortured by the North Vietnamese…………….
Of course, Bush says that we do not torture so this is a non-issue.
Right……………
Sorry for the repost.
JR,
CRY!
There, now don’t you feel much better!
Back to the wine fest now.
“I thought the Democrats were going to pull the troops out and bring them all back home!”
Can’t do unless Republican stop being obstructionists and go along with the majority, just like they wanted the Democrats to do when the GOP held power.
No enough votes, Max……………
Max, if the Dems dont have enough votes, they cant very well pass legislation to force Bush to bring home the troops… They cant get to Vote # 67!! YOU know that, and yet you keep howling about the Dems doing nothing!! Hmmmm…. let’s see… IF we put a dog in a cage, so he cant get to his enemy, does that mean the dog is somehow WRONG or BAD for being locked in his cage??
Democrats are dogs?
STUFF IT James!! Just STUFF IT!! If you cant even attempt to stay on topic, and just do your usual disruptions, just STUFF IT!!
I’m not the one who brought up caged dogs Chas. :)
Pssssssssst, Chas…………………. trolls…..
I noticed Clark LOL
Back later….
Nathan writes above:
You still post lies. I never called you [JR] a pornography addict, a child pornography addict . . .
*****
Nathan
Posted December 25, 2007 at 6:19 pm | Permalink
JR,
Shouldn’t you be looking at all your underage teenage girls websites getting your jollies right about now?
*****
That’s a distinction without a difference, Nathan.
You owe JR a big apology for that one.
Chas/Clark,
If the Dem Majority does not fund the Iraq war, then Bush has no choice but to bring them home.
They are not “left” out in the desert.
Who’s on first.
What’s on second.
I don’t know is on third.
A CNN reader’s recollections about Bobby Fisher:
“When I was a young boy, Bobby Fischer was no less than a hero for me. I am now 51 years old, and I still have the yellowed newspaper clippings of his famous match with Boris Spassky in my desk.
“Unfortunately, Bobby obviously suffered from mental illness that progressed as the years passed by and eventually destroyed him. His remarks (ravings) of support for the 9/11 attackers upon the United States will certainly be as much of a legacy as being the American Cold War hero, and first American world chess champion three decades earlier. Bobby Fischer was a genius, a hero, a villain and a very sick man. It’s a shame that no one could reach him many years ago and save him from himself.”
http://www.cnn.com/2008/US/01/18/fischer.memories.irpt/
A friend of mine is from Boston, he claimed that he and about 50 other people played a game of chess against Bobby Fisher. The 50 or so folks sat at long tables, Bobby walked from player to player making his moves. Of course, Bobby defeated all challengers.
Cage Rage
Cage Rage is often seen in neglect situations, or, more accurately, in puppy mill dogs. After spending months, perhaps years in a cage by yourself, or even with others, these dogs begin to see the cage as their territory, defending it when necessary. Even worse, a caged dog is a trapped and cornered dog. In a confrontational situation, the dog no longer has the “flight” option, and “fight” is all that is left.
http://dogs.about.com/cs/disableddogs/a/aggression_heal.htm
That would explain a lot about what is happening on Capitol Hill then. :cool:
“If the Dem Majority does not fund the Iraq war, then Bush has no choice but to bring them home.”
Not true, Max, it would still take funding to bring them home and Bush could veto any appropriation that required the troops be brought home.
Basically, unless the Democrats get the support from the Republicans, they will have to wait until January 2009 to get anything done.
And Max, why won’t the Republicans be good little boys and girls and go along with the majority like they wanted the Democrats to do when the GOP was in charge?
Double standard?
Nah! Couldn’t be………………
Steven–
I read the bio at the NY Times today.
Part of Bobby Fischer’s problem seemed to be that he early on hooked up with the church of Garner Ted Armstrong.
Strangely, even though he himself was a non-practising Jew, he became hopeless enmeshed in anti-Semetism.
Perhaps it had something to do with his father abandoning the family at an early age.
Anyway, it’s proof that one needs more than raw intellect to live a balanced life.
Thanks for the tip on the Times bio. I will go read it.
Nathan just for the record I remember that comment. I also remember what it was in reference to. It was a crass comment by JR referring to Jamie Lynn Speers who is only sixteen.
Taken out of context anything could be made to look bad.
JR you have maligned people who have been very kind to you in the past. You are showing how classless you are by keeping this up.
Call a halt before the thread goes away.
Max that pic of Bill is certainly appropriate. He is feeling his empire falling down around him. After over 15 years as a hero to now be shown to have feet of clay to the entire world has to be a rude wake up call.
Maybe he see those $50,000 speeches going by the by.
ksgrm – WAY off topic:
Think this is a good weekend to take the grandkids camping? Ages 3 and 5.
:)
ksgrm
I have before questioned your reading skills and your comprehnsion.
I do so again.
This comment of Nathan’s comes from the thread about the patient who was denied a liver transplant.
Secondly? I didn’t start THIS fight. Nathan did.
Finally? I tried several times to get Nathan to back off. He wasn’t having any of that. I invited the record to stand without further comment. No dice.
You have things exactly backward germie. No wonder you can’t understand cosmos.
P S Nathan has the low mark on class not me. And I owe him no favors.
Thanks
Obama recognizes Reagan’s accomplishments.
http://www.breitbart.com/article.php?id=2008-01-18_D8U8J1R81&show_article=1&cat=breaking
Obama told the Reno Gazette-Journal editorial board Monday that “Reagan changed the trajectory of America in a way that Richard Nixon did not and in a way that Bill Clinton did not. He put us on a fundamentally different path because the country was ready for it,” Obama said.
“I think it’s fair to say that the Republicans were the party of ideas for a pretty long chunk of time there over the last 10 to 15 years in the sense that they were challenging conventional wisdom,” Obama told the newspaper.
Chas/Clark,
If the Dem Majority does not fund the Iraq war, then Bush has no choice but to bring them home.
THERE IS NOTHING TO VETO!!!!!
They are not “left” out in the desert.
TROOPS ARE NOT LEFT TO DIE BECAUSE THERE IS NO FUNDING TO BRING THEM HOME!
The Democrat propoganda on this blog must be brought to you by Abbot and Costello!
Who’s on first.
What’s on second.
I don’t know is on third.
KSgrm, that picture of Bill surely rates high enough for the Wichita Eagle Blog to use on a topic titled:
Bill Rings His Hands Over Campaigning for Hillary!
I wonder if Bill Clinton’s heart condition will allow him to continue in such an active role campaigning for Hillary.
She really shouldn’t be wearing him out so much, she will need Bill to be her brains when she becomes President.
My God, if Bill dies of a heart attack while Hillary is in office, what will Hillary do?
If he dies of a heart attack before the election, will Hillary be elected? Maybe she’ll get the sympathy widow vote.
I can see her now all dressed in black, and little Chelsey at her side wearing white gloves saluting the casket as it’s pulled down Pennsylvania Avenue by a horse drawn cassion.
With a single tear rolling down her cheek,
And taps playing in the background…
Max appears to be competing in the race to low class as well. Going down fast on the inside.
Yeah outlander. In those few words, Obama effectively ended his run. I will NOT vote for him. All these years in the Reagan wreckage and he heaps laurels on the guy? Goodbye Barack.
Nathan, JR is so sensitive you really should be careful what you say to him.
He’s special you know.
He’s been donated so many things from the government (SCHIP for his kid), and from his Lib friends (PC’s and such) that he really can’t fend for himself.
He’s literally teetering on the edge of existence in such a cruel, cruel world dominated by nasty conservative rich people.
To call JR a name, if that’s what you did, is like driving a red, hot poker up his wazooo.
Nathan, don’t you see how cruel you have been?
I don’t recall that JR has called anyone any nasty names, or insulted anyone in any way, or that he has proclaimed himself to be savior of the blog, or has used diversive and rediculous tactics, or flaming hot rebuttals, or anything which would indicate he is anything other then a paper-thin sensitive special person who should be handled with kid gloves, less his thin skin be pierced by words which might possibly insult him in any way, as if a dagger was driven directly into his hollow head, or empty heartless chest.
So Nathan, please be nice to JR.
He’s special you know. And so innocent, like a white fluffy furred newborn lamb.
Please do not slaugher JR on this blog Nathan. JR needs to be here.
It’s all he has for contact with the outside world.
Ben I would go for the camping, but it would have to be sleeping bags in front of the fireplace, making samors and popping corn over an ‘open’ fire. Can you do that with a gas log?
You seem to have more time to post here than me there Max. And I still think you’re really just another of JM nics.
And all that entails.
JR,
I don’t think Max is James, not by a long shot.
By the way, Max, did you read my post on yesterday’s open thread about how you know nothing about genetics or evolution and so you can’t use it to justify oppressing gays?
I’m still kind of steaming over that, if you can’t tell :D
Yes JR, discredit, redirect, pretend there is no mass conservative audience against you!
Pretend that Kansas/JM/Regular is EVERY conservative voice on this blog!
Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha!
Nathan, pay no attention to my apparent lack of insensitivity to JR.
It’s merely a ploy to build JR’s ego.
To make him “think” he has a life.
Kansas,
Please just come back as Kansas.
WTF!
As Chuck Yeager wrote, he used to fly “balls out”.
Is there any other way to live?
And stop taking credit for all the conservative posts on this blog!
The so-called “conservatives” are so quick to attack “liberals” for holding their hands out for money from the government.
So today George WMD Bush announces today a $150 Billion give-away to distract people from the disasterous economy his policies have generated.
I assume posters such as “Regular” and “Max” and “GMC70″ and “Hank” and “Nathan” and “Econ101″ and “ksgrm” will send me their tax rebates, since they’re so opposed to government give-aways and I, a confirmed liberal, “always have my hand out.”
No sorry Tara, I missed your post.
It’s not like I looked for it though.
I really don’t care.
“No sorry Tara, I missed your post.
It’s not like I looked for it though.
I really don’t care.”
So you’re fine spreading blatant misinformation and sounding like a donkey’s rear.
Cool, cool.
ksgrm,
Do you consider all of the “economists” on Hank Price’s list “credible sources” re climate science?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:KimDabelsteinPetersen/Inhofe#Economists
;)
We’ll do that after we get them back from Harvey County Park! And thaw out their little fingers!
Not real sure Cosmos but if your side can use an out of politician It would seem logical that Economist can be climate experts.
Don’t ya think?
I think to be a “climate expert” means that you have done original research on climate science that has been published in a peer-reviewed journal. That goes for both sides, and I don’t think that’s too much to ask, qualifications-wise. There are undergraduates who have peer-reviewed papers in their field.
Misinformation Tara?
No such thing was spread by me.
Those posting on homosexual behavior were caught between declaring there was some genetic difference in homosexuals or in declaring there is no genetic difference and that homosexuals simply choose to be that way.
If you want to choose that lifestyle, FINE.
If you want to say you are a genetic aberration, FINE.
You have to pick one or the other though. No other explanation has been offerred.
Tara that of course should be our goal but we know on both sides it hasn’t been the standard.
Ben you are brave!
Ben I have to admit that once when our boys were young and Holiday Inn came out with their super hotels with indoor water slide and indoor mini golf we let our boys each invite a friend and we drove the 20 miles to Joplin, Mo and had a ‘camp out’. It was great and we even had room service.
I tried to make a deal with Max so I could be him, but his wife wouldn’t have any of it. Besides his pants are too short for me and those itchy sweaters I can’t stand. :cool:
ksgrm,
Please give me some examples of ex-politicians personally claiming to be “climate experts”.
For example, Al Gore does not claim to be a climate scientist.
He relies on climate research done by peer-reviewed climate scientists — Dr’s Lonnie Thompson, Jim Hansen, Roger Revelle, etc.
What climate research have the “economists” on Hank Price’s list done?
ksgrm – I took the boys to that hotel in Hutch with the small water park. They had a blast. Also rock climbing north of salina “Rock City”.
On the other topic – while I do not claim to be a climate scientist i am a perr-review scientist in another field. I also rely on the literature of the perr-reviewed ones and have found it overwhelming in favor of anthropogenic climate change being real.
“… if your side can use an out of politician…”
I think grm meant to say, “out of ‘work’ politician” in the above obvious reference to Al Gore. I have yet to figure out how Gore garners so much loathing from conservatives.
And surely it is not due to him making money. I thought conservatives favored rich people getting richer.
Justice served
Do you remember the story back in December about the Chicago Marine Sgt McNulty that got his car keyed by a anti war Jewish (I make that point because the defendent accused the Marine of being anti semitic) lawyer. The marine was deployed for the second time in early January:
http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/columnists/chi-kass_11_jan11,0,4431313.column
On Lou Dobbs just heard (can’t find the link yet) that they had their court date today with McNulty in Iraq, the lawyer was late – regardless the lawyer was severely admonished by the judge, got a short jail term (24 hrs), had to post a 20k bond, do 30 hours of community service, some restitution to the Sgt and make a 600$ donation to the Semper Fi Society. The state bar is looking into other complaints about the lawyer and will probably be disbarred. The lawyer never had a chance, the judge, prosecutor, an assistant and one other court officer are former Marines — and of all the services, it has been my experience, that Marines have the strongest bond / fraternity — it is part of their culture.
Semper Fi
oh — the lawyer is also leaving the state
oh btw — Dobbs made a substantial donation to Semper Fi also — well in excess of the lawyer
Looks like that lawyer got plowed under, deservedly so. :)
Steven Davis,
They attack Al Gore, because they cannot attack all of the credible climate scientists Gore relies on, and because he’s a “liberal”.
It’s a two-fer — the old ‘attack the messenger’ strategy, and also convert a purely scientific issue into a political issue.
Again, when did the Shawnee County District Court rule on the Constitutionality of Kansas Casinos?? How did the 7th street Casino in Wyandotte open without a state ruling?? Herb West III, I hope Judge/AG Six looks into this. HLWIII west.herb@yahoo.com
Researchers Develop Bionic Contact Lens
Friday, January 18, 2008
By Clara Moskowitz
If you’ve ever wanted to be the Bionic Woman or a Terminator, new research may at least let you see with their eyes.
Scientists have taken the first step toward creating digital contact lenses that can zoom in on distant objects and display useful facts.
For the first time, engineers have installed an electronic circuit and lights on a regular contact lens.
The prototype they created does not actually light up or display information. But it proves that it is possible to build an electronic lens that is safe to wear and doesn’t obstruct vision.
(full story at URL below)
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,323929,00.html
Steven Davis
Posted January 18, 2008 at 4:46 pm | Permalink
A friend of mine is from Boston, he claimed that he and about 50 other people played a game of chess against Bobby Fisher. The 50 or so folks sat at long tables, Bobby walked from player to player making his moves. Of course, Bobby defeated all challengers.
—
If you’re of a certain age, say 45-65 or so, then it’s almost impossible to overstate the impact Fischer had in forming the context in which most of us grew up. Anybody else remember the stories about this crazy mad chess genius beating Spassky in Iceland?
It’s another milepost that’s past for many of us baby boomers, Fischer’s death.
Aside: when I lived in Asia, I had a lot of friends who played online chess. And there were TONS of rumors of an anonymous chess genius playing out of Japan (Fischer’s longtime companion was a Japanese grandmaster) who just kicked ass online. Took no prisioners, played a remarkably individualistic game (with no threats, obviously, as personal interactions were impossible in these chess rooms), and never lost. Usually showed up very late at night. Most of the buzz was about how artful his game was, how quickly and ruthlessly he won. Nobody could prove it, but rumors where thick that Fischer was the guy kicking everybody’s butt online.
Bobby Fischer was one of a kind, that’s for sure.
Wow, Bobby Fisher was the anti-semite who said America deserved 9/11, but he was a great chess player!
Great guy!
Only the Frogger Champion of the World was better!
There ‘heros’ of the Libs!
My God!
How pathetic.
Regular, how on Earth did you know I wear cardigan sweaters in the winter time?
Getting old now, sorta like Mr. Rogers only I’m nicer then he was.
“Pedant” –
Interesting post.
I never was a very good chess player, as it is a game of skill, but Fischer apprarently figured it out.
Still, Bobby was crazy as a loon in real life.
Today, he’d probably be diagnosed as autistic. His IQ, as I recall, was something like 286, but that conspiratorial mathematics that works so elegantly on a chess board never translated to real life. Chess, after all, has rules; real life, not so much.
Fischer was like the undisputed heavyweight champion of the world; no one would challenge him so he was left to retire. That had to drive him nuts.
But he had a head start.
All the gays want is acceptance and acknowledgement that we are normal.
That’s all.
We don’t want special rights (though an anti-gay discrimination act would be nice and wonderful)we only want to be seen as if we were one of the gang.
Just say we are normal. That’s all we really want.
Whether we are genetically different or we choose to be this way, what does it matter?
We are not abnormal! We do not choose to be gay!
We are normal different people, for Christ’s sake!
Oh JR, can you post your email address for me?
:lol:
Fischer was seriously damaged goods. And a chess genius to boot.
Check that: an American chess genius. And an anti-semite. And a guy who said more than his share of loony stuff. And a chess genius. And a chess thug. Mostly, he was good at one and only one thing: chess. That was his entire repertoire, chess.
Did I mention that he was an American/i> chess genius? :D
Yes, Bobby Fischer had a head start.
3 yr old preschool was paid for by the state.
If we could only get the state to pay for all education from age 6 months to 24, then we would have an entire generation of young children raised to be as bright as Boris Spasky, oh, I mean Bobby Fischer.
(Spasky was the c-o-m-m-u-n-i-s-t)
Yes, that Boris and Bobby chess match was almost as powerful as 10,000 nuclear warheads we had aimed at the USA and they had aimed at us.
It was such a powerful demonstration of superiority.
A frickin chess game.
Wow!
There is just no talking to any of these people… Whether it’s the Troops that Bush refuses to bring home; or votes on Funding for Troop Safety; or the economy; or the environment; it is ALWAYS the Republicans who claim to have the world’s only handle on Truth!! How SAD!!!
One more time — IF the Republicans vote against bringing the Troops home, the Democrats cannot force their legislation, because they dont have enough Votes!! That is in itself a strongly Partisan move on the part of the Republicans… It isnt Gore’;s fault; It sure the hell isnt Clinton’s fault!!
Without the votes needed, it makes little difference if the Democrats have a technical majority in the Senate!! They need more than a technical majority!! And what is worse, those Right Wingers on this Blog are fully aware of that FACT, and still ask the phony and bogus question of why the Democrats arent doing anything with their “majority” What a JOKE!!
Fellow Democrats, and left leaners…. You just cant fix that kind of Stupid!! Just let them rant and rave onward… There is no arguing or discussion with this kind of total illogical thinking… As Michael Savage would say, it is a mental illness!!
The Right is so sure they are right, they cant even see the Wrong that they promote daily!!
And so it goes, ad infinitum…. Ad hominem attacks while complaining about Ad hominem attacks… Day after day; after day; after day!!
Good grief, the Sock Puppets are out in full force, and its not even 9 p.m.!! What does it take to get this nonsense STOPPED once and for all?? The Blog Editors are falling down on the job… I KNOW they can fix this mess, IF they really want to!!
I don’t very often think Tara is wrong.
About Max?
I’m not so sure. There sure was a reflex and reactive series of posts after I speculated. And now we see James begin to write this evenings cast of characters.
Makes ME go hmmmm…..
STUFF it Dumacrat!! Go back to your Sock Drawer where you belong!! And take your stupid, idiotic buddies with you!!
I don’t think that Chas or Bobby character are being very nice at all!
They both be using such horrible language, they should both be banned!
I just made!
300 Posts, is this a record?
I just finished watching Larry King on UFO sightings at Stephenville, Texas.
I have a desier that I beings from outer space (if there is such a thing) show themselves befor I die. And our earthlings treat them with dignity.
I assume this will end this thread.
Interesting story from The Wall Street Journal. I’m posting the whole thing here because the site is gated.
The patterns of behavior some people fall into when they gather together regularly just never cease to amaze me.
—
Banned From Church
Reviving an ancient practice, churches are exposing sinners and shunning those who won’t repent.
By ALEXANDRA ALTER
January 18, 2008; Page W1
On a quiet Sunday morning in June, as worshippers settled into the pews at Allen Baptist Church in southwestern Michigan, Pastor Jason Burrick grabbed his cellphone and dialed 911. When a dispatcher answered, the preacher said a former congregant was in the sanctuary. “And we need to, um, have her out A.S.A.P.”
Half an hour later, 71-year-old Karolyn Caskey, a church member for nearly 50 years who had taught Sunday school and regularly donated 10% of her pension, was led out by a state trooper and a county sheriff’s officer. One held her purse and Bible. The other put her in handcuffs. (Listen to the 911 call)
The charge was trespassing, but Mrs. Caskey’s real offense, in her pastor’s view, was spiritual. Several months earlier, when she had questioned his authority, he’d charged her with spreading “a spirit of cancer and discord” and expelled her from the congregation. “I’ve been shunned,” she says.
Her story reflects a growing movement among some conservative Protestant pastors to bring back church discipline, an ancient practice in which suspected sinners are privately confronted and then publicly castigated and excommunicated if they refuse to repent. While many Christians find such practices outdated, pastors in large and small churches across the country are expelling members for offenses ranging from adultery and theft to gossiping, skipping service and criticizing church leaders.
Dave Krieger/Getty Images
PODCASTS
• Hear an interview with Doug Laycock, a professor of constitutional law at the University of Michigan, about the legal implications of church discipline.
The revival is part of a broader movement to restore churches to their traditional role as moral enforcers, Christian leaders say. Some say that contemporary churches have grown soft on sinners, citing the rise of suburban megachurches where pastors preach self-affirming messages rather than focusing on sin and redemption. Others point to a passage in the gospel of Matthew that says unrepentant sinners must be shunned.
Causing Disharmony
Watermark Community Church, a nondenominational church in Dallas that draws 4,000 people to services, requires members to sign a form stating they will submit to the “care and correction” of church elders. Last week, the pastor of a 6,000-member megachurch in Nashville, Tenn., threatened to expel 74 members for gossiping and causing disharmony unless they repented. The congregants had sued the pastor for access to the church’s financial records.
First Baptist Church of Muscle Shoals, Ala., a 1,000-member congregation, expels five to seven members a year for “blatant, undeniable patterns of willful sin,” which have included adultery, drunkenness and refusal to honor church elders. About 400 people have left the church over the years for what they view as an overly harsh persecution of sinners, Pastor Jeff Noblit says.
The process can be messy, says Al Jackson, pastor of Lakeview Baptist Church in Auburn, Ala., which began disciplining members in the 1990s. Once, when the congregation voted out an adulterer who refused to repent, an older woman was confused and thought the church had voted to send the man to hell.
Karolyn Caskey was expelled from Allen Baptist Church after clashing with the pastor.
Amy Hitt, 43, a mortgage officer in Amissville, Va., was voted out of her Baptist congregation in 2004 for gossiping about her pastor’s plans to buy a bigger house. Her ouster was especially hard on her twin sons, now 12 years old, who had made friends in the church, she says. “Some people have looked past it, but then there are others who haven’t,” says Ms. Hitt, who believes the episode cost her a seat on the school board last year; she lost by 42 votes.
Scholars estimate that 10% to 15% of Protestant evangelical churches practice church discipline — about 14,000 to 21,000 U.S. congregations in total. Increasingly, clashes within churches are spilling into communities, splitting congregations and occasionally landing church leaders in court after congregants, who believed they were confessing in private, were publicly shamed.
In the past decade, more than two dozen lawsuits related to church discipline have been filed as congregants sue pastors for defamation, negligent counseling and emotional injury, according to the Religion Case Reporter, a legal-research database. Peggy Penley, a Fort Worth, Texas, woman whose pastor revealed her extramarital affair to the congregation after she confessed it in confidence, waged a six-year battle against the pastor, charging him with negligence. Last summer, the Texas Supreme Court dismissed her suit, ruling that the pastor was exercising his religious beliefs by publicizing the affair.
Allen Baptist Church
Courts have often refused to hear such cases on the grounds that churches are protected by the constitutional right to free religious exercise, but some have sided with alleged sinners. In 2003, a woman and her husband won a defamation suit against the Iowa Methodist conference and its superintendent after he publicly accused her of “spreading the spirit of Satan” because she gossiped about her pastor. A district court rejected the case, but the Iowa Supreme Court upheld the woman’s appeal on the grounds that the letter labeling her a sinner was circulated beyond the church.
Advocates of shunning say it rarely leads to the public disclosure of a member’s sin. “We’re not the FBI; we’re not sniffing around people’s homes trying to find out some secret sin,” says Don Singleton, pastor of Ridgeview Baptist Church in Talladega, Ala., who says the 50-member church has disciplined six members in his 2½ years as pastor. “Ninety-nine percent of these cases never go that far.”
When they do, it can be humiliating. A devout Christian and grandmother of three, Mrs. Caskey moves with a halting gait, due to two artificial knees and a double hip replacement. Friends and family describe her as a generous woman who helped pay the electricity bill for Allen Baptist, in Allen, Mich., when funds were low, gave the church $1,200 after she sold her van, and even cut the church’s lawn on occasion. She has requested an engraved image of the church on her tombstone.
Gossip and Slander
Her expulsion came as a shock to some church members when, in August 2006, the pastor sent a letter to the congregation stating Mrs. Caskey and an older married couple, Patsy and Emmit Church, had been removed for taking “action against the church and your preacher.” The pastor, Mr. Burrick, told congregants the three were guilty of gossip, slander and idolatry and should be shunned, according to several former church members.
“People couldn’t believe it,” says Janet Biggs, 53, a former church member who quit the congregation in protest.
The conflict had been brewing for months. Shortly after the church hired Mr. Burrick in 2005 to help revive the congregation, which had dwindled to 12 members, Mrs. Caskey asked him to appoint a board of deacons to help govern the church, a tradition outlined in the church’s charter. Mr. Burrick said the congregation was too small to warrant deacons. Mrs. Caskey pressed the issue at the church’s quarterly business meetings and began complaining that Mr. Burrick was not following the church’s bylaws. “She’s one of the nicest, kindest people I know,” says friend and neighbor Robert Johnston, 69, a retired cabinet maker. “But she won’t be pushed around.”
Karolyn Caskey reads her Bible.
In April 2006, Mrs. Caskey received a stern letter from Mr. Burrick. “This church will not tolerate this spirit of cancer and discord that you would like to spread,” it said. Mrs. Caskey, along with Mr. and Mrs. Church, continued to insist that the pastor follow the church’s constitution. In August, she received a letter from Mr. Burrick that said her failure to repent had led to her removal. It also said he would not write her a transfer letter enabling her to join another church, a requirement in many Baptist congregations, until she had “made things right here at Allen Baptist.”
She went to Florida for the winter, and when she returned to Michigan last June, she drove the two miles to Allen Baptist as usual. A church member asked her to leave, saying she was not welcome, but Mrs. Caskey told him she had come to worship and asked if they could speak after the service. Twenty minutes into the service, a sheriff’s officer was at her side, and an hour later, she was in jail.
“It was very humiliating,” says Mrs. Caskey, who worked for the state of Michigan for 25 years before retiring from the Department of Corrections in 1992. “The other prisoners were surprised to see a little old lady in her church clothes. One of them said, ‘You robbed a church?’ and I said, ‘No, I just attended church.’ ”
Word quickly spread throughout Allen, a close-knit town of about 200 residents. Once a thriving community of farmers and factory workers, Allen consists of little more than a strip of dusty antiques stores. Mr. and Mrs. Church, both in their 70s, eventually joined another Baptist congregation nearby.
About 25 people stopped attending Allen Baptist Church after Mrs. Caskey was shunned, according to several former church members.
Current members say they support the pastor’s actions, and they note that the congregation has grown under his leadership. The simple, white-washed building now draws around 70 people on Sunday mornings, many of them young families. “He’s a very good leader; he has total respect for the people,” says Stephen Johnson, 66, an auto parts inspector, who added that Mr. Burrick was right to remove Mrs. Caskey because “the Bible says causing discord in the church is an abomination.”
Mrs. Caskey went back to the church about a month after her arrest, shortly after the county prosecutor threw out the trespassing charge. More than a dozen supporters gathered outside, some with signs that read “What Would Jesus Do?” She sat in the front row as Mr. Burrick preached about “infidels in the pews,” according to reports from those present.
Once again, Mrs. Caskey was escorted out by a state trooper and taken to jail, where she posted the $62 bail and was released. After that, the county prosecutor dismissed the charge and told county law enforcement not to arrest her again unless she was creating a disturbance.
In the following weeks, Mrs. Caskey continued to worship at Allen Baptist. Some congregants no longer spoke to her or passed the offering plate, and some changed seats if she sat next to them, she says.
Mr. Burrick repeatedly declined to comment on Mrs. Caskey’s case, calling it a “private ecclesiastical matter.” He did say that while the church does not “blacklist” anyone, a strict reading of the Bible requires pastors to punish disobedient members. “A lot of times, flocks aren’t willing to submit or be obedient to God,” he said in an interview before a Sunday evening service. “If somebody is not willing to be helped, they forfeit their membership.”
In Christianity’s early centuries, church discipline led sinners to cover themselves with ashes or spend time in the stocks. In later centuries, expulsion was more common. Until the late 19th century, shunning was widely practiced by American evangelicals, including Methodists, Presbyterians and Baptists. Today, excommunication rarely occurs in the U.S. Catholic Church, and shunning is largely unheard of among mainline Protestants.
Little Consensus
Among churches that practice discipline, there is little consensus on how sinners should be dealt with, says Gregory Wills, a theologian at Southern Baptist Theological seminary. Some pastors remove members on their own, while other churches require agreement among deacons or a majority vote from the congregation.
Since Mrs. Caskey’s second arrest last July, the turmoil at Allen Baptist has fizzled into an awkward stalemate. Allen Baptist is an independent congregation, unaffiliated with a church hierarchy that might review the ouster. Supporters have urged Mrs. Caskey to sue to have her membership restored, but she says the matter should be settled in the church. Mr. Burrick no longer calls the police when Mrs. Caskey shows up for Sunday services.
Since November, Mrs. Caskey has been attending a Baptist church near her winter home in Tavares, Fla. She plans to go back to Allen Baptist when she returns to Michigan this spring.
“I don’t intend to abandon that church,” Mrs. Caskey says. “I feel like I have every right to be there.”
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB120061470848399079.html?mod=ITPWSJ_5
I see the intelligentsia is out in full force this evening – apparently some of the more hardcore right wingers have brought in their inbred cousins from Texas for the weekend.
Lock up the women and children.
Still wondering why a church pastor would find 16 hours every day to post here on the WE Blog.
Don’t know how such a pastor would find the time to dedicate himself to the Lord if he is not spending any time doing so.
Some men must sleep 8 hours per day and so blogging for the other 16 wouldn’t seem to leave much time for a legitamite pastor to be blogging away.
Thou Lord it is not my place to question why, though sometimes I just have to ask,
WHY?
cosmos
Posted January 18, 2008 at 7:04 pm | Permalink
Steven Davis,
They attack Al Gore, because they cannot attack all of the credible climate scientists Gore relies on, and because he’s a “liberal”.
Cosmos a clarification for my last post today. I have the same respect for Algore that you have for Jimmy Swaggart. None. I don’t respect him either. Gore is a cheap snakeoil salesman who is making money off the backs of those who believe in the GW movement. He sells ‘carbon credits’ to the gullible. His pockets become fuller and the poor become poorer. Why aren’t the libs all over this?
As I said my reason. MOHO
Clark, its an exercise in futility!! I heard about an escaped Kindergarten Class from somewhere in the boonies…. I think we just found them all!! LOL
WS I don’t align myself with the extreme right wingers and here lately you have been a good debater – well most of the time. I say to ignore both sides. They will eventually go up in smoke.
Chas you are no better than the worse of the worse so don’t get scantimonious here.
I suppose KsGrm has some kind of factual link to back up the comments about Gore’s income from Global Warming?? That would be most interesting to see!! (since it doesnt exist!! LOL)
Have a good night, I am sure this thread will be history by morning.
Seven new posters within 45 minutes – a new record or just one of the usual suspects up to his usual tricks?
I vote for the latter – apparently the old dog can’t forget his new tricks.
Just slap the ignore label on him and move along folks…………..
Grm, you just dont like being called out when you are SOOO wrong SOOO often!! LOL I hope you take some more reading comprehension classes!!
Ya got that right ksgrm!
Chas for once do your own homework. Gores income from carbon credits has been proven over and over on this blog. You see you have this idiotic idea that if you keep your head in the sand we will all see your best side. LOOK IT UP!
Just one of the usual suspects, I suspect Clark!!
But they are getting REAL personal tonight!!
See you in Church bright and early Sunday morning Chas!
Remember Chas……………………. trolls……..
That would be a good trick, Sinner, since you have no clue who I am!! Or where I am!! LOL
Just no way to fix Stupid!! None at all!!
Not trolls, Clark…. These arent good enough to be Trolls… These are Troll Wannabee’s!! LOL
I had beans for dinner.
I gots a song inside of me
TOOT TOOT TOOT after I eat my beans!
Forecast for the Blog the rest of this Friday evening:
Chas will say goodnight several times.
Will continue to cry about the personal attacks, then he will launch some of the most vile hateful unChristianlike hateful attacks since the Enola Gay last visited Hiroshima.
Nothing of substance will be said.
The Chastians will all wake up dead.
And life on Earth will go on like we are all evolving.
To a life form that will eventually crawl back into the sea followed by the lost sheep congregation bound for hell.
Good night all.
And good luck.
Just remember Wannabee’s — The Editors can trace your Email addresses!! And your IP addresses… They can find out who you are!! I didnt get that from my own brain… I got that from a good friend who happens to be a Puter Tech, and an IT expert!! So, have fun while you can!!
Oh that hurt Chas.
Wannabe trolls.
Is that like a wannabe pastor?
I see KsGrm is being quite normal — She has no link to back up her constant rant against Gore, so, she feigns signing off, to go do whatever…. And she has nothing more to add to the discussion…. Again Grm, do you have some kind of link to establish Gore’s alleged income from his climate change challenges??
Or are you just flappin your keyboard??
Well, too early to sign off… But other things must be done… Might be back later!!
So sorry to see some of you like to make fun of a blessing from God when somebody signs off… Guess that just shows where your loyalties really lie… Definitely not with a God of many blessings!! Oh well….
Hey, wait a minute!
You people seem to be losing track of the critical issue of the day. George WMD Bush wants to send everyone $800 to stimulate the economy out of the recession he’s created.
But, we know all “conservatives” on this forum deride us liberals for always having our hands out. So all that free money from Shrub will be unwelcome by Cons such as “Regular,” “Hank,” “Max,” “ksgrm,” “Nathan,” “GMC70,” “Econ101,” “Blog Editor,” “Sinner,” “Wyatt Earp,” “Billy Joe Jim Bob,” “AgHawk,” “rfl,” “American Way,” “Kansas,” et al.
See, the thing Shrub said today is that it’s essential to get all those $800 checks into the hands of Americans as soon as possible. But you guys who so hate the thought of government hand-outs won’t likely cash them and that’ll ruin Bush’s plan to save us from Recession.
So here’s the deal. You’ll get your check eventually, but write a check to me for $800 apiece so I can get that money into the economy ASAP. That way, you won’t have to lower yourself to taking a pay-off from the government, and I’ll be in fine shape to stimulate the economy the way Shrub wants. Sounds like a win-win solution to me!
Open your mailbox MonkeyHawk and we’ll shove your tax refund just exactly where you want it.
ksgrm,
Gore repeats what the credible, peer-reviewed climate scientists say.
If you disagree with those scientists, then make a futile attempt at refuting them, instead of attacking Al Gore.
And you avoided the issue ksgrm — what qualifies the “economists” on Hank Price’s list to to make scientific claims re AGW? They are not climate scientists.
But we don’t NEED an economic stimulus plan! The economy is doing just fine – in fact it is strong – that’s what the Republicans have been telling us all this time.
What up with that?
And wow! It’s up to NINE new posters within one hour – a new WE Blog record!!!!!
Whoopee!!!
Or it is just the same old same old up to his usual garbage.
Oh, well, I thought we had a record there for a minute or two.
Back to your usual programing.
Farmie is mR. Green jeans
Capn is mr moose
cosmos is bunny rabbit
JR is the town clown
XXX is Mr. Mcfelley
I’m in for that monkeyhawk!
Huh?
The floor show ended rather abruptly.
THANK you moderation! I’ll tell you all about it later.
He just ran out of ideas for new nics, J R, he’ll be back later when he thinks of a few more.
Wouldnt it be so nice if every single Troll and Sock Puppet on this Blog accidentally had a strange virus infect their hard drives, and get shut down?? That wont happen, but a nice fantasy anyway!!
May the blessings of the Prince of Darkness be with the Trolls, and Many Nic Sock Puppets of the WEBlog, now and always, in forever darkness!
Misty Dark Blessings to each of you! If you know me not already, you shall soon!
Did ya turn them in, JR??? Somebody should!!
The Blog is no longer in favor of personal attacks!
Pedant
Posted January 18, 2008 at 7:50 pm | Permalink
Thanks, Pendant. As usual, I appreciate your posts. Of all of my reading today about Bobby Fischer, he was considered to be Asperberger’s
Syndrome – which seems reasonable to me.
http://www.aspergers.com/aspclin.htm
Asperger’s is considered a high functioning Autism disorder – Bill Gates is said to be diagnosed as such.
Thanks.
hmmm, busy night…
D
N
F
T
T’
s
I’ve seen strange and positive powers known only to the editors.
I’ll tell you about it tomorrow.
Good on you editors! Keep it up.
Our multi-niced friend is always posting how we libs are making his life miserable. I think that is real sad… really I do… But, I am really tired of the fact that this jackass repeatedly posts crap that is not true.
Here are examples of his whining and threats:
Posted December 21, 2007 at 6:10 am | Permalink
Isn’t this interesting:
Notice the poster at:
Sorry James,Won’t even bother to engage your flaming attempts at interaction. You poor pathetic soul [sic].
Posted by: Steven Davis | December 20, 2007 at 11:07 PMhttp://blogs.kansas.com/weblog/2007/12/open-thread-122.html#comment-94408958
Then…
Chuckle, as the outlander would say.
Posted by: outlanders friend | December 20, 2007 at 11:53 PM
http://blogs.kansas.com/weblog/2007/12/open-thread-122.html#comment-94411782
The post that ties Steven Davis to all three posts.
“But knowing blind partisans want to make it about Kline, if he is smart, he will appoint a well-respected, attorney or former judge, whose impartiality is beyond question.”
If Kline is smart? As outlander would say ‘chuckle’.
This whole deal with Morrison is very disappointing. I may swear off sending any support to future politicians as a result of this.
Posted by: Steven Davis | December 14, 2007 at 10:04 AM
http://blogs.kansas.com/weblog/2007/12/will-the-prosec.html#comment-93532352
This Steven Davis is supposable [sic - you very dubm ass] a poster all of you Libs respect.
He doesn’t know the meaning of legal boundary when it comes to privacy.
I’m asking once again for WE Blog to examine the IP address of this poster Steven Davis.
If it is the same, I asked he be permanently banned.
I will be seeking to tie the rest of the Lib crew hit squad together with Weblogs I have saved from the past.
2. Kansas
Posted December 21, 2007 at 6:15 am | Permalink
Yeah Apophis funny.
You think it is funny don’t you?
That’s the way Libs think. Instead of keeping it on the blog and not worrying about who the poster is, the Libs who everyone think are so great, use blackmail and coercion to become blog bullies.
Of course, Brownlee won’t do anything, so I am doing something.
Oh yeah, Steven Davis, I have your blog website recorded and that nice pic of you standing in the trout stream.
I’m coming for you Steven Davis.
You want it personal? Let’s do it.
This is a poster that the WE Blog has tried to ban at least two times, maybe three, without success. He makes threats against people, here, and the Blog does nothing??? What is up with this bullshit? Inquiring minds would like to know…
I have known serious psychopaths who were able to assume more responsibility for their behavior than this clown is able to accept. I expect and demand that the WE Blog will do something about this clown. If not, expect legal recourse from me… Thank you. Good night…
Cosmos I had to wait for Chas to nod off so I could post this. I know you will discredit it but I believe it to be true. There is too much smoke to be no fire.
“Gore is chairman of the firm and, presumably, draws an income or will make money as its investments prosper. In other words, he “buys” his “carbon offsets” from himself, through a transaction designed to boost his own investments and return a profit to himself. To be blunt, Gore doesn’t buy “carbon offsets” through Generation Investment Management – he buys stocks.”
Look into the history of this company and also into the men he has brought in to run it.
And you have some kind of link for that very weak garbage, KsGrm?? Post a link so we can all see it!!
Ksgrm,
Gore is out for money and fame. He is as dirty as any of them. Keep on keeping on.
All one has to do is search for
“cap and trade carbon credits Al Gore”
and you will come up with many articles on Al Gore’s company and Carbon Credit schemes.
Well, time to shut this thing down for another night… You all have fun now trying to find something bad about Gore’s project!!
I havent seen any links, so I have to assume that it is nothing more than distractions, and hot air being floated — as usual!!
Already been posted there Chas. I made a very detailed outline of how Al Gore is Chairman of many companies and how he went from $1 million net worth in 2000 to 100 million net worth by 2007.
Only the willfully ignorant would be blind to the fact that Al Gore is getting rich on one of the big scams in history.
I have seen NO LINK… Post a LINK… Do try to be credible…
Regular you are making the same mistake I have made in the past. Pretending Chas has a brain. It took a while but I just try to outlast him so some intelligent posting can happen. Bedtime. Have a good one.
I know ksgrm. Chas is too lazy to search for the truth, too incompetent to understand the truth and too ideologically bound to acknowledge the truth.
Oh what fools we’ve been.
Or maybe it is just me.
ksgrm is sure up late. And “American way” too.
And “Regular” who we KNOW as JM is right here too.
I said it before and do again. James did not like that the blog is majority liberal. He set about populating it with conservatives.
Can anyone here vouch for the reality of “Max”,”ksgrm”,”American way”?
And instead of a LINK, what do we see??? Just more stupid ad hominem responses!! Put up a LINK to your Gore nonsense, or SHUT UP!! Very easy!!
And now I must say nite nite, because my pain meds have hit hard… and I have to knock out this bronchial infection by Sunday a.m. or it will be a LONG day!!
Good night; Good luck; God bless;
Whatever you conceive God to be!
Blessings all!!
Even Blessings to the Trolls and Sock Puppets!!
JR, I sort of think KsGrm and Max are real… It’s so hard to fix Stupid, ya know!! LOL
JR,
LOL
I don’t think I ever read your comment about going 10 rounds or at least I forgot.
Thanks for the good laugh.
You wouldn’t last one round with me.
The video of Obama’s comments:
http://news.rgj.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080115/VIDEO/80115026
The good news: Obama certainly wasn’t saying that what Reagan did was right or good.
Or really much of anything else.
If you listen to him you see that Obams, as a man of my generation, is attempting to “go beyond” all the old arguments, making well-cratfed statements that are literally true, but avoiding any and all of the flash points (at least, ahem, when conservatives are concerned. .. .).
I certainly believe in compromise, and finding common ground.
The problem with his approach is that you don’t resolve historical divides by glossing them over with vague, delicate, tippy-toeing, nice-speak. He’s an thoughtful intellectual–no question–but he seems to have confused abandoning your territory (or pretending you have none) with finding common ground.
I would go further than Obama’s mild critique of the 70’s-era Democratic Party. The Reagan revolution was largely the result of a Democratic party that grown fat and arrogant, and was prone to infighting, corruption and waste (Well, that, and the full-scale implosion of Jimmy Carter).
But what followed was far worse.
The ultimate issues go back further than Nixon, or even (either) Roosevelt. Sure, we can pretend we we’re working with a clean slate. But let’s not ignore history, Senator. That’s extremely dangerous.
Here’s one for hank:
Hundreds of medicinal plants are at risk of extinction, threatening the discovery of future cures for disease, according to experts.
Researchers warned the cures for things such as cancer and HIV may become “extinct before they are ever found”.
These included yew trees, the bark of which forms the basis for one of the world’s most widely used cancer drugs, paclitaxel.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/7196702.stm
Rage I think Obama made a mistake some new politicians make. He actually spoke from his heart. Not bragging on Reagan but speaking a truth his collagues couldn’t embrace. With a change on two of his issues I could support this man.
JR I assure you I am very real. Off to grandsons basketball game this morning. Couldn’t sleep last night. Thought I could outlast Chas and post. He must have a big bell that rings when I post because he always has the last word even if it is on of ignorance.
“You wouldn’t last one round with me.”
Probably not Nathan.
I understand you threaten to shoot people. And I’ve little reason to doubt you’ve made the threat.
In the bonedig I posted, I was speaking rhetorically. That was a fight you melted down and went psycho in. I walked away and advised you against going there again. Here, you called me a liar and called me out. I carried you as far as you pushed it and then proved you the liar. After egging me on all day, you skulk in in the middle of the night. No apologies or acknowledgement you lies. Just a final shot.
You are a lying, ill mannered, self righteous, goon.
And whatever ELSE you might be, you proved yourself the above here.
JR,
You didn’t prove me a liar about anything.
You made several pointed accusations about me and the only thing you posted was a QUESTION I asked you.
The QUESTION was in bad taste, however, ksgrm was correct in asserting that the question followed that day where you made some pretty questionable comments about a 16 year old.
The QUESTION also followed another discussion of ours where you wouldn’t admit the “distinction without a difference” that CapnAmerica pointed out in asking such questions.
Yet again, you post another lie about me where you claim I threatened to shoot people.
I have made no such threat except prehaps in the abstract to those who would want to hurt my family or I or someone else that I might be able to protect.
So the only liar here is you JR.
Chas–
The reports of Gore’s wealth appear to be true.
But not because he’s flogging “the global warming scare” as the reich-wingers claim.
He’s a consultant and sits on various boards.
******
Al Gore just won a Nobel Prize for teaching the world to think green, but he’s also showing he knows a thing or two about another kind of green: money. Since 2000, according to published reports, the former veep has transformed himself from a public servant with around $1 million in the bank to a sparkling private consultant with a net worth estimated to be north of $100 million. He’s a senior adviser to Google, a board member at Apple and now a newly minted general partner at Kleiner Perkins Caufield & Byers, the Silicon Valley venture-capital firm that made billions investing early in Netscape, Amazon and Google.
http://www.newsweek.com/id/71011
More about the muddled investments of Al Gore. Gore’s main firm is in London and where he made the majority of his money.
The story on Kleiner Perkins Caufield and Byers can be found here. Gore had little to do with their success or making profit.
http://money.cnn.com/2007/11/11/news/newsmakers/gore_kleiner.fortune/
Good article–
However it says nothing about “where Gore most of his money.” It simply says that he teamed up with an American working in investments in London three years ago.
It also puts the lie to the reich-wing propaganda that he doesn’t practice what he preaches in a green life-style:
“Now Gore, Doerr, and Blood are gathered on the back patio of Gore’s $2.3 million, 10,000-square-foot home in the Belle Meade section of Nashville. That’s the mansion — to Gore’s critics it’s always a mansion — that tagged the former Vice President as an energy hog. He’s quick to point out that the house generates electricity from more than 30 solar photovoltaic panels on the roof as well as seven 300-foot geothermal wells in the ground, and that it has been certified as an energy-efficient home by the U.S. Green Building Council.”
As for what Gore contributes to the profitibility of the firm, the article said nothing.
I’ll let the record stand Nathan.
I wonder how much energy was wasted in the construction of his 2.3 million dollar home?
How much energy does his home still use compared to the average American?
It is always nice how the liberal ideologues are held above the standards they push on their followers.
Must be nice.
Kind of like the gun grabbers who still own and carry guns for their protection while they preach against gun ownership or the ability to carry one for the general people.
JR,
Let what record stand?
You are a liar.
You’re the liar Nahan, as is shown in this thread unless posts have been removed. Your lies have also been witnessed by posters I respect more than you. So I am comfortable with the record.
A nickels worth of free advice? Once you’ve crossed a line, as you have several times now my take, in what you will say or do? It gets easier each time to defame yourself further. Also to go even lower as to what you will say. Me I aspire to better. But I can sure help you make yourself look bad/ worse if you so wish.
JR,
You just posted anoother lie about me. Who did I threaten to shoot?
These were the pointed accusations you have accused me of saying about you:
a pornography addict
a child pornography addict
and that I have suggested you are a child molester
You have done nothing to prove those accusations.
You are a liar.
You purposefully take something and stretch it to accuse me of far more than I have ever done.
If you ever want to put your money where your mouth is, I would be glad to take you up on just 1 of those 10 rounds you want to go.
Nathan posted January 19, 2008 at 9:15 pm
“I wonder how much energy was wasted in the construction of his 2.3 million dollar home?”
Nathan, how much “energy” did it take to construct his home, about 85 years ago?
‘Al Gore’s home, 1 of just 14 LEED rated homes in our country!’
http://mydd.com/story/2007/12/15/204150/92
“But not because he’s flogging “the global warming scare” as the reich-wingers claim.
He’s a consultant and sits on various boards.”
{Posted by CapN}
===============================
Thanks CapN — That was my point earlier… Gore is simply not cheating anybody out of any funds off of the “global warming scare” — Thanks for posting the Info… since the others refused to do so until you just did.. LOL
Max should LOVE Gore, since Gore made his money by working hard to get it, and didnt get it from government handouts… That IS the American Way, right?? :-)
Al Gore is chairman and founder of a private equity firm called Generation Investment Management (GIM). According to Gore, the London-based firm invests money from institutions and wealthy investors in companies that are going green. “Generation Investment Management, purchases — but isn’t a provider of — carbon dioxide offsets,” said spokesman Richard Campbell in a March 7 report by CNSNews.
GIM appears to have considerable influence over the major carbon-credit trading firms that currently exist: the Chicago Climate Exchange (CCX) in the U.S. and the Carbon Neutral Company (CNC) in Great Britain. CCX is the only firm in the U.S. that claims to trade carbon credits.
Clearly, GIM is poised to cash in on carbon trading. The membership of CCX is currently voluntary. But if the day ever comes when federal government regulations require greenhouse-gas emitters — and that’s almost everyone — to participate in cap-and-trade, then those who have created a market for the exchange of carbon credits are in a position to control the outcomes. And that moves Al Gore front and center. As a politician, Gore is all for transparency. But as GIM chairman, Gore has not been forthcoming, according to Forbes magazine. Little is known about his firm’s finances, where it gets funding and what projects it supports.
We do know that Goldman Sachs has commissioned the World Resources Institute (affiliated with CCX), Resources for the Future, and the Woods Hole Research Center to research policy options for U.S. regulation of greenhouse gases. In 2006, Goldman Sachs provided research grants in this area totaling $2.3 million. The firm also has committed $1 billion to carbon-assets projects, a fancy term for projects that generate energy from sources other than oil and gas. In October 2006, Morgan Stanley committed to invest $3 billion in carbon-assets projects. Citigroup entered the emissions-trading market in May, and Bank of America got in on the action in June
World Bank now operates a Carbon Finance Unit that conducts research on how to develop and trade carbon credits. The bank works with Italy, the Netherlands, Denmark and Spain to set up carbon-credit funds in each country to purchase emission credits from firms for use in developing countries. In addition, it runs the Carbon Fund for Europe helping countries meet their Kyoto Protocol requirements. These funds are traded on the ECX (half of which is owned by CCX, itself a creature of Al Gore’s firm, Generation Investment Management). Can we connect the dots?
http://www.newsbusters.org/blogs/noel-sheppard/2007/10/03/al-gore-getting-rich-spreading-global-warming-hysteria-media-s-help
You have substantive issue related questions to answer Nathan.
Deal with them. The more personal posts are distractive from bigger and more important issues. You’ve demeaned your own character here and elsewhere and I’ve little doubt that despite my advice you will continue to do more of the same.
I should tell you fyi that more than a few posters here find you mentally unbalanced or even dangerous. Just so you know.
Carry on. I’m done here.
JR,
You accuse me of things I have not said. You refuse to back your accusations up.
You are a liar.
You were the one who wanted to suggest that 2 years after the fact that my father was trash talking you to your son behind your back.
You were the one who wanted to throw around other accusations.
You are a liar.
PS There are also several posters here who think you are mentally unbalanced as well. More of a danger to yourself than anyone else I might add.
I’d rather have Nathan watch my back than most Libs here on the blog both in civilian life or on the battlefield.
Now with THAT ringing endorsement from Regular/Kansas/JM/ etc. I really am comfortable letting the record stand.
Sorry, couldn’t resist.
JR the Liar,
Next time you come back, admit you lied.
Nathan the liar AND the evader.
Cosmos asked you a question. Go answer it. I’m confident I’ll get to help you to further reveal your character another day. Maybe you can counsel with your pal “regular”. I’m done playing “got ya last” here.
JR,
I have asked you several times to back up your assertions.
Why don’t you?
It is because you are a liar.
Don’t come back, just leave.
Liar.
llllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllll