As U.S. Supreme Court Justice Antonin Scalia said during a hearing on Kentucky’s lethal injection procedure, “there is no painless requirement†in the Constitution regarding punishment for one’s crimes. But surely the justices heard enough testimony Monday to conclude that the three-drug execution protocol can be cruel, something that is prohibited in the Constitution. As Justice John Paul Stevens said, “I’m terribly troubled by the fact that the second drug is what seems to cause all the risk of excruciating pain, and seems to be almost totally unnecessary.†If a single barbiturate can cause death painlessly, why hold out for the three-drug method? Scalia suggested that sending the case back for more study would cause “a national cessation of executions†for years. But the court should favor what’s constitutional over what will expedite executions.
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64 Comments
If we take as a given that the desire is to inflict a relative painless death (which assumption is itself a matter of discussion) then it would seem to me that we have a number of means available. Basically we are then looking at euthanasia - how about just CO poisonong? Use the methods we have looked at for animals etc.
Guillotine would would work nicely.
No pain, quick, sure.
And the Constitution does not specify methods of execution, only that they not be “cruel or unusual.”
As Justice Scalia put it, there is no painlessness requirement in the Constitution, though certainly we should not use any method which inflicts undue pain.
I’d prefer we abolish the DP entirely, with one small exception, but that is a political/policy decision, not one mandated by the constitution.
If we’re gonna have CP, why not a .45 to the back of the skull? Quick, reliable, as painless as any other, cheap.
The Carr brothers, Doug Belt, Gary Kleypas.
Anybody really care if these animals suffer when they are killed?
Yes. We don’t want them to suffer but that is the wrong question. Does anybody think we would be killing innocents? That is one of the main talking points, isn’t it? We know they did it and they are still breathing, watching TV, reading, having sex, spending our tax dollars. Kill them today.
Recently a man wrongly convicted of rape was released after languishing in prison for a decade or so. Yes, fleettwood, that issue is definitely there.
“Yes, fleettwood, that issue is definitely there.”
I understand that, but not with anyone on Kansas’ Death Row. Kill them today.
You are probably correct and I have made reference to having a rope handy. But, just like to be certain.
While I realize that some of you out there want to set up the new arena with lion cages and line the Douglas street bridge with heads on pikes, the main concern is for the people who have to carry out or witness executions. They have to at least appear painless.
The bigger question is due to the wellknown ability of humans to err. Mistakes will inevitably occur, as they have in the past, and no amount of DNA or other testing can get around that. How are you going to feel when it’s your son they mistakenly execute?
There have been 125 Death Row inmates proven innocent and released over the past 20 years, one just recently. Until the issues can be addressed as to fairness and innocence, all executions should be halted.
Regardless, the suit over the methods only questions the application of the lethal injection, not the actual method of execution. To my way of thinking, a massive dose of barbituates would be painless and quick.
Feel free to point out one single person on death row in Kansas where there is any doubt about their guilt.
Todd:
This is the SCOTUS. It’s bigger than Kansas.
And this, I should note, is an issue that WS and I it appears largely agree on. Yea!! It can be done, folks.
We have seen that our justice system is compromised and faulty.
The death penalty NEEDS extreme prejudicial review if not suspension until that is rectified.
“Feel free to point out one single person on death row in Kansas where there is any doubt about their guilt.”
There was “no doubt” about the guilt of the 125 men that were proven innocent, yet the evidence did just that over time, some as much as twenty years.
The bottom line is the system is broken and needs to be fixed.
I have no doubt (no pun intended) that the Carr Brothers, Kleypas, Robinson and Belt are guilty, but there are many others who’s guilt is in question that still face execution. Where is the line to be drawn and who will wield the pencil?
WS has posted my position on capital punishment and reasons therefor in his first paragraph at 10:09 a.m.
Todd,
Need I point out that the intended standard for all convictions is “beyond a reasonable doubt?” And yet we end up releasing innocent people who were convicted of crimes and suffered in prison for decades. If you really feel the need to kill that badly, I’m sure Tyson’s has openings in their kill line.
Jed, I guess if you want to personify me as someone who wants to kill, I’ll return the favor: If you want to get up close and personal with the psychotic murderers we’ve sent to death row, I’m sure there are social work positions available at EDCF.
The issue of cruelty involved with lethal injections is peripheral and a distraction.
As the Constitution if written, “devrivation of life” is altogether acceptable within the constraints of “due process of law.”
But we all know how “due process of law” has turned into injustice. From the McDonald’s hot coffe case to the ever-growing examples of DNA evidence proving innocence of convicted defendants, the whole concept of “due process” has become blurred.
O.J. could afford good lawyers. Darnell Williams couldn’t. An interesting compendeum of failed “due processs” is here:
http://truthinjustice.org/recent.htm
Are there heinous criminals who *deserve* to be taken out into the street and shot like the rabid dogs they are? Hell yes. Hand me the gun.
But have there been innocent people murdered by the State? Yup.
“Due process” should imply some sort of way to right a wrong and the death penalty leaves us with no way to correct injustice.
Lock ‘em up and throw away the key. It’s cheaper. It provides a correction if injustice occurs. And it doesn’t throw society into the moral conundrum thof killing people to prove killing people is wrong.
Everybody’s gonna die. To kill someone prematurely — whether you’re a crook or the state — isn’t gonna change anything in the grand scheme of things. Not everyone is gonna spend all of their life in a cage. The latter seems to be a more appropriate *punishment.*
I don’t feel a whit less safe that Charlie Manson or Dennis Rader are breathing every breath ’til they die in a cage. Hell is waiting for them and it’ll last a lot longer. Fine.
Lowering myself — as a member of the State — to Manson’s or Rader’s level doesn’t particularly sit well with me.
And, given the inherent weakness of “due process” where the high-priced lawyers and the vengeance many juries display (whether the issue is a murdered innocent or a goddamned cup of coffee) result in obvious, demonstrable failure of *justice,* the death penalty should die.
That some scumbag suffers really doesn’t bother me, the probelms with the DP that I see are its inequities usually involving wealth issues, if you got money your not going to get the DP, also the change for judicial mistakes is their too so if were going to have the DP it should be done at a higher standard of guilt than normal cases.
Heh, MH, think about Rader spending the rest of his life around inmates who hate his guts. I’m surprised he hasn’t been shanked yet. In his case, I call that justice!
The fact that we continually have to return to the Eight Amendment is yet one more argument against the death penalty.
“think about Rader spending the rest of his life around inmates who hate his guts.”
LOL at people who think there’s some kind of noble code in prison. There are certainly many, many people in prison who don’t vilify him at all, and in fact are inspired by him and his ability to evade justice for his crimes.
MH -
A position we largely agree on.
Remember, however, in our system, “due process” IS justice. Since justice is an amorphous, largely undefinable thing, and one that means many different things to different people, we hang our hat on “due process” as a definable, relatively objective substitute.
We’ve substituted a means - which we can do - for an end which is ultimately unreachable.
It ain’t perfect; it cannot be, as we are human beings, inherantly fallible (to me, the primary reason for ending CP). But I know of no
substitute.
Interestingly, the Founders thought much the same about democracy itself. Democracy - or more precisely, republican government (small R), was a means to an end: Good government, defined as limited government, operating only within clearly defined parameters. Today, however, we see democracy as an end in itself, and have abandoned any pretense of limited government. To our detriment and folly.
BTW - while I know the infamous McDonald’s coffee case is routinely trotted out, I suspect that with a thorough vetting of the facts you’d conclude, as I have, that the jury largely got it right, as they usually (but not always) do. That is not to say there is not silliness out there - there is - but this case isn’t one of them.
LOL at people who think there’s some kind of noble code in prison.
I guess you’ve never heard of prison gangs. The “noble code” is one where anyone can get shanked for the dumbest of reasons. And even rapists tend to look down on child killers, if for no other reason than having someone to down upon.
Oooh, the Founders . . .
Their ghosts are invoked to support any position that one wants–”we’re a Christian nation/not a Christian nation,” “we should have democracy/should not have democracy” etc. etc.
If we’re going back to <the Founders then we’d have to revoke our standing army (the idea which the Founders hated), immediately pull troops from Iraq and every other foreign clime (”avoid entangling alliances”) and reinstate slavery and the slave trade.
The Founders were just men and women as we are. Let’s not yoke ourselves to the 18th century.
BTW, I agree, GMC, that if the law allows for capital punishment, a firing squad is the most painless and simplest method.
Electric chair, gas, and now injections are all cumbersome and faulty.
With the firing squad, death occurs before the brain even has time to register pain . . .
I seen some guys on CNN say we should use guillotines as they are painless
With the firing squad, death occurs before the brain even has time to register pain . . .
CapnA
And if not, who cares?
Although I have personal disdain for the Carr brothers because I know the victims, I still could not personally “execute” them. I also find it difficult asking someone else to do what I cannot do myself. Now if I caught someone in the act of harming my family, in that moment it may be a different story.
To me though, it would be a far worse punishment to be sentenced to life with isolation. No computers, no TV, no books, no entertainment… only you and an occasional visit with guards.
Capn -
While I understand your point, please understand mine.
This is a nation built, in large part, on constitutionalism. Ours was in fact the world’s first written constitution, designed to define and limit the powers and reach of government, in particular the national (now commonly referred to as the federal) gov’t.
A constitution, by its terms, is a limiting document, or at least it is supposed to be. It is thus by its terms a conservative document, defined here as one which is resistent to change. That was what was intended.
We operate today under that constitution, and I am confident that you hold the constitution, and the notion of constitutional government, in high regard, as do I. If that is so, then while we are not “yoked” to the 18th century (as the constitution provided itself a means to change, and we have justifiably used same), it is very much those constitutional notions which do in fact limit us today, or should, if constitutional government is to mean anything at all.
To cut ourselves loose from that constitution and its limits, citing not “yoking ourselves to the 18th century, is to cut ourselves loose from any limits on government at all. Either we have a constitution, binding on the state, or we don’t. If we don’t, then that, sir, is a very dangerous proposition; the history of governments is not a pretty one, and there is little reason to think that the abuses so common other places are impossible here. Nonetheless, with the abandonment of the commerce clause, we have done, it seems to me, exactly that. And yes, I fear for our future given that.
This very election cycle I have heard candidate after candidate promise much that by any reasonable reading of the constitution is beyond the authority and scope of the federal government as defined in that constitution. Unfortunatly, we know that after the New Deal era, there IS NO limit to the authority and scope of the federal government. And today we even have McCain-Feingold eating awasy at the very heart of the 1st amendment, in many ways, the very centerpiece of constitutional government. And that is a scary proposition. In that sense, Ron Paul, kook (and racist kook, it appears) that he is, even so has a point.
In my opinion, and with all due respect, I very much want a government limited by a constitution. Thomas Paine was right 200+ years ago (paraphrasing): “Gov’t is at best a necessary evil, at worst an intolerable one.” For a gov’t without limits is indeed a Leviathian, answerable to no one. And when it is answerable to no one, it will inevitably become intolerable. I have no desire to fertilize the tree of liberty with the blood of patriots. But cutting the State loose from constitional limits is the surest way to get us there.
While it ‘awaits moderation’ just one link:
http://www.constitution.org/cons/iroquois.htm
Constitution of the Iroquois Nations:
THE GREAT BINDING LAW, GAYANASHAGOWA
Iroquois Constitution Influenced That of U.S., Historians Say
Smithsonian editors interviewed at First Americans Festival
By Kathryn McConnell
Washington File Staff Writer
Washington — Benjamin Franklin, one of the original architects of the United States government, introduced as a model for the country’s framework document the constitution of the Iroquois Nation, according to a Smithsonian Institution specialist of American Indian history.
The Iroquois, a North American Indian confederacy of several tribes, allied with some of the first European settlers of what later became the United States.
The Iroquois’ detailed constitution — called the Great Law of Peace — guaranteed freedom of religion and expression and other rights later embraced in the U.S. Constitution, said Jaime Hill, co-editor of “American Indian,” a new Smithsonian magazine about the past, present and future of indigenous peoples from throughout the Western Hemisphere.
http://usinfo.state.gov/xarchives/display.html?p=washfile-english&y=2004&m=September&x=20040924120101AKllennoCcM9.930056e-02
I’ve wondered from time to time that the Chief Exeuctive should also be the Chief Executioner in jurisdictions that use capital punishment.
It goes back to the blithe jubilation George W Bush seemed to display when he signed the death warrant against Karla Faye Tucker. From what I know about Tucker’s crime, I’m ready to admit she deserved her punishment as much as many others do. But it was Shrub’s glee that reminded me of the carnival atmosphere that resulted in the elimination of public executions.
I think the Governor or President who signs a death warrant should have to sign it in the presence of the condemned, after a face-to-face meeting. And, however the execution is conducted, the Governor or the President should flip the switch or push the plunger or shoot the gun.
Otherwise, it’s all too abstract. Somebody bad you’ve only heard about is dead. What the hell.
One of the issues about “needless cruelty” should address the job society has sloughed off on low-paid Correctional Officers. It’s just too easy to kill a man with a fountain pen. The Governor or President should be at the front line when it comes to the all-powerful State killing people.
Todd,
I have a friend who taught art classes in the state prisons for years. She had to give it up last summer due to a degenerative bone disease that keeps her from driving. She has been talking to me about taking over. The only problem is that it’s a volunteer position and gas prices are only going one direction. If I can figure a way around that, I’ll do it. I’ve seen the letters they wrote her and looked over their art projects, and it’s definitely worthwhile.
TP,
“I seen some guys on CNN say we should use guillotines as they are painless”
I’m sure they spoke from personal experience.
If there is too much objection to lethal injection, we in Kansas can just go back to public hangings, which were constitutionally and judiciously applied for many decades.
But we will not give up our God-given right to capital punishment. Not temporarily. Not til Kingdom Come.
TP,
“I seen some guys on CNN say we should use guillotines as they are painless”
I’m sure they spoke from personal experience.
We could let the victims family pick up the head and show it the body! Capital idea.
I think we could make this a positive cash flow business if we were to take them down to Bullseye Target range and auction off the right to shoot them , or at least for the first 5 shots.
Who the hell cares if it hurts. I would suggest moving to an Ax based system rather than lethal injection. We want to see the whites of their eyes.
I would suppose of course that all the scum being executed would of course be mindful of the painless methods they used to murder their victims. Of course they would. If I had my way, I too would would do away with lethal injection and find a much more painful method to use.
Regardless of the method, execution is the property of government without morals. To seek justice in the form of execution does nothing for either the victim or the perpetrator. You’re still left with two dead people. Nothings changed; it doesn’t deter anything; it does not bring “closure”, whatever that is; it surly doesn’t bring back the dead. It’s a useless tool used to kill people. One wrongly executed person, and there have been many, negates everything “justice” seeks to serve. It’s morally bankrupt justice.
“No Defense For Needless Cruelty”??? How about kidnapping a woman for 3 days and raping and toturing her and then cutting off her head while she is still alive? Yeah, Gary Hilton certainly deserves a “painless death”. After all we would not want to hurt him sticking a needle in him would we?
http://www.wsbtv.com/news/15011719/detail.html
“”"J M Walker
Posted January 9, 2008 at 6:10 pm | Permalink
Regardless of the method, execution is the property of government without morals. To seek justice in the form of execution does nothing for either the victim or the perpetrator. You’re still left with two dead people. Nothings changed; it doesn’t deter anything; it does not bring “closure”, whatever that is; it surly doesn’t bring back the dead. It’s a useless tool used to kill people. One wrongly executed person, and there have been many, negates everything “justice” seeks to serve. It’s morally bankrupt justice.”"”
The purpose of executions is to say that a civilized society sees some behaviours and some deeds with such malice that it wants to express its outrage and that it will not tolerate such things. And no executed killer has ever killed again. Not one. Not even Tookie! Not John Wayne Gacy.
#
J M Walker
Posted January 9, 2008 at 6:10 pm | Permalink
Regardless of the method, execution is the property of government without morals. To seek justice in the form of execution does nothing for either the victim or the perpetrator. You’re still left with two dead people. Nothings changed; it doesn’t deter anything; it does not bring “closure”, whatever that is; it surly doesn’t bring back the dead. It’s a useless tool used to kill people. One wrongly executed person, and there have been many, negates everything “justice” seeks to serve. It’s morally bankrupt justice.”
What a collection of bleeding heart crap J M Walker.
Here’s some stats for you.
Since 1998 12,658 have been murdered in the U.S.
The average time for convicted murderers on Death Row is 10 years and 7 months. Plenty of time to appeal if some injustice has been done.
To date since 1980, only about 900 people have been executed for their murders.
The thousands resting in State provided luxury, 3 hots a day and cot still get thousands in free legal aid to play the system.
James - in many ways I agree with you. If we are REAL SURE then I have little difficulty offering my rope for the Carr brothers (one rope, noose on each end, a 2-fer). However, with so many being found to have been wrongly convicted I just get nervous …
How would the pro-death penalty folks justify the execution of the 125 men that have been proven to be innocent and released from death row?
They were not released on a technicality. They were not released because of the motions of over zealous lawyers. Most were released after the efforts of lawyers working pro bono.
They were released because they were innocent, some after twenty years on the row. If the pro-kill-them-now folks had their way, there would be (at least) 125 innocent dead men.
What do the pro-capital punishment people have to say about that?
Porkay,
“But we will not give up our God-given right to capital punishment. Not temporarily. Not til Kingdom Come.”
Let’s get this straight; god told you that abortion is always wrong, but you could wait until they’re adults and then kill the ones you catch? That’s not morality, that’s fishing!
Kev and McClure
At least ya got it in quotes. You conveniently forgot to mention how you feel about the innocent who have been executed. I suppose they don’t count? That executing the ones who did it to the ones who didn’t at a 10:1 ratio, 100:1, 1,000,000:1 ratio is okay though. After all, it’s only a life. The wrongly executed probably did something bad in his life anyway, right?
Bleeding heart my a**. Your solution is no better than those you think deserve to be executed. My opinion is based on not executing ANYONE because too many innocents have died in the name of justice. Lock the convicted away for life. As I stated earlier, killing don’t bring back the dead.
“And no executed killer has ever killed again. Not one.” [Posted by Kev]
===========================
And if they were doing Life Without Parole, they would not kill again either. What is the purpose?
If an executed person is later discovered to be innocent of the crime, the condemning judge, prosecuting attorney, jury, Governor, and correctional officers should be executed. After all, they’re just as guilty of murder.
“”"How would the pro-death penalty folks justify the execution of the 125 men that have been proven to be innocent and released from death row?
They were not released on a technicality. They were not released because of the motions of over zealous lawyers. Most were released after the efforts of lawyers working pro bono.
They were released because they were innocent, some after twenty years on the row. If the pro-kill-them-now folks had their way, there would be (at least) 125 innocent dead men.
What do the pro-capital punishment people have to say about that?”"”
I would say this- we are not sure most of these folks are “innocent”- we just are not sure they were guilty in some of these cases. I hate the justice system. It is racist and tilted to rich white people and somewhat rich black people to a lessor extent. And it is far from perfect BUT as for the death penalty, I will put it this way- if you have a callous killer that we know for 100% sure did the deed, I have no problem with killing him like the mad dog he is. If it were my choice, I too would outlaw injection and we would go back to firing squads, hanging and “ole sparky”. There are simply some people that do not deserve to suck the same air as civilized people. Timothy McVeigh was one. So was John Wayne Gacy. Do any of you doubt the guilt of these men? Now, if there is ANY doubt, then prison would be my verdict. I would not have given Scott Peterson the death penalty simply because, while I am 95% sure he killed Lacy, I am not 100% sure he killed her. I would have given him life no parole.
“”"And if they were doing Life Without Parole, they would not kill again either. What is the purpose?”"”
First of all, do you have any idea of how many prison employees are killed and maimed each year by these killers? Secondly, in reality, there is no such thing as “life without parole”. They will all get out and probably sooner rather than later.
“”"Bleeding heart my a**. Your solution is no better than those you think deserve to be executed. My opinion is based on not executing ANYONE because too many innocents have died in the name of justice. Lock the convicted away for life. As I stated earlier, killing don’t bring back the dead.”"”
You know I would not have a problem with that IF they were really locked away for life but they never are. Once sent to prison, eventually they end up in a nice cushy minimum security prison (which are much like a college dorm) where they can come and go pretty much as the please. And most of them will be released sooner or later.
“”"Ben
Posted January 9, 2008 at 6:31 pm | Permalink
James - in many ways I agree with you. If we are REAL SURE then I have little difficulty offering my rope for the Carr brothers (one rope, noose on each end, a 2-fer). However, with so many being found to have been wrongly convicted I just get nervous …”"”
So do you think the Carr brothers are innocent? Was the evidence strong enough to support a 100% sure guilty verdict?
“You know I would not have a problem with that IF they were really locked away for life but they never are. Once sent to prison, eventually they end up in a nice cushy minimum security prison (which are much like a college dorm) where they can come and go pretty much as the please. And most of them will be released sooner or later.”
Back that one up.
The death penalty serves only one purpose. To ensure the public that the person being executed will never have the chance to do so again. HOWEVER, the DP has no redeeming value to the relatives, friends and acquantances of the victim. Many think that those effected will be relieved of their sorrow and pain. WRONG, WRONG, WRONG! That suffering and pain will live on until their deaths! I have conflicting thoughts about the death penalty! Some days I am for it, some days not! It all depends on which way the wind blows! In other words how I feel about the crime committed!!!
“I would say this- we are not sure most of these folks are “innocent”- we just are not sure they were guilty in some of these cases.”
Sorry, Kev, but with all due respect, these men were proven to be innocent - through DNA testing that was not available at the time of the crime - through confessions by the actual killers - through investigation by private detectives.
This is not a matter of someone “might” be innocent, they were proven to be innocent.
The 125 man released spent nearly 18 years in prison until DNA evidence proved that he was not at the scene of a rape/murder. The DNA evidence led to the true perp and he was tried and convicted.
The solution is not easy, considering people like the Carrs and Kleypas, but executing innocent people is just not a viable option.
As for life without the possibility of parole? It is just that - no parole hearings - ever. One of the challenges that correction organization face today is the problem of aged criminals. Some have had to resort to nursing home type facilities with the prisons themselves.
“I’m terribly troubled by the fact that the second drug is what seems to cause all the risk of excruciating pain, and seems to be almost totally unnecessary.”
Yeah? Well I’m terribly troubled at the prospect of housing, feeding, and providing unlimited EXPENSIVE medical care FOR LIFE for these low-lifes, rather than just doing away with them. If it TRULY is more expensive to execute these worms because of the endless appeals process, THEN CHANGE THE FRIGGIN LAW!!
If it TRULY is more expensive to execute these worms because of the endless appeals process, THEN CHANGE THE FRIGGIN LAW!!
The “endless appeals process” exists because, once you kill someone, there’s no going back. And even with it, innocent people have been executed. Repeatedly.
Yes, let’s change the law: abolish the death penalty.
My sister was murdered in Texas. Capital punishment was not sought. When the jury asked the judge which was longer, life or 99 years, and the answer was 99 years, the jury handed back the sentence of 99 years in under 10 minutes.
The POS has had appeal after appeal. The bulk of the expense has been on his own family. Once this last round was rejected by the Texas Supreme Court that pretty much ended it. Not many judges downstream will buck the TSC. So the scum will rot in jail. I hope his new boyfriend Bubba likes it rough.
I would much rather this turd die an old man in prison than be spared and killed off.
Rage,
JL wants blood for blood. It doesn’t matter whose. He’ll be satisfied even if they guy they execute is innocent, just so long as he’s poor.
Sol, I am greatly sympathetic towards you for the loss of your sister. You and I rarely agree, but you have my deepest respect for your attitude towards the scum that ended your sisters life.
In the mid-seventies, my family was also touched by murder. In Detroit, my then wife’s Aunt and Uncle were murdered by burglars that lived next door. The case was semi-famous because of the actual murders were recorded on the 911 tape. You could hear her Uncle pleading for his life as the shots were fired.
Michigan has never had CP, so it was never an issue.
Again, my sympathies for your loss. You should be commended that you recognize that Life without Parole is truly a worse sentence than death.
My sympathies to you as well WS.
I don’t agree, if life without parole is worse than the death penalty, why do so many on death row try appeal after appeal after appeal? It seems they want to live, even is it’s behind bars for the rest of their life. Many prefer to stay in jail because it’s 3 squares and a bed, plus you get to hang out with your buds all day long and never have to worry about making a living or taking responsibility for anything again.
I think they should be “put to sleep” like a vicious dog..if someone willingly takes a life, they should have to pay for it with their own.
BTW, the man was on parole when he killed my 2 friends has already been out on parole twice since the murder, and now he’s been granted parole for the third time. There is no real justice in our system. He never even gave my friends one chance, but yet he’s already had 3 chances for freedom since he killed them in cold blood. He’ll screw up again I’m sure. He’s an antisocial personality, and no amount of rehab will make him grow a conscience.
He should have been mercifully “put to sleep” a long time ago.
PS, I could care less if someone suffers while the death sentence is carried out…I’m sure they won’t suffer as much as their victims did.
Just think about Dennis Rader torturing those two Otero children before he killed them…slime like him shouldn’t be allowed to breath the same air as the rest of us. He should have received the death sentence, not a cozy little cell to hide from the world in.
Ben,
Thanks for the link to the Constitution of the Iroquois Nations. I’ve been looking for quite a while for such a document. I think it will serve for a project I’m working on now. Thanks again!
Jed
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