It’s great that some Wichita schoolkids will get a chance to chat live with orbiting astronauts, thanks to a deal reached between Exploration Place and NASA.
The live video downlink from the International Space Station — the first ever for Kansas — will take place in February or March and let Anderson Elementary fifth-graders ask astronauts and cosmonauts questions for 20 minutes or so.
The event is a natural for Exploration Place to host, with its mission to fire children’s imaginations and inspire them to reach for the stars.
Kudos to Exploration Place for landing the NASA event. Hope it’s the first of many.
135 Comments
Probably this is the best and most important thread here today.
And it will get so little attention.
Good for Exploration Place. The space program is one of the few truly meaningful things we do.
Guess you were right… No ’side’ to attack or defend. Shame.
Looks like JR was right; sol, you are correct, a shame.
It is unfortunate that the “space race” has become all to mundane to many. The only time, it seems, that manned space travel rises to any level in the national consciousness is when there is a disaster or when it is perceived the potential for disaster exists.
I grew up watching the Mercury, Gemini and Apollo launches. The current STS (shuttle) launches just don’t attract the kind of attention that the others, “back in the day” did, again, I suspect, for the reason that for the most part there’s no perception of anything interesting occurring. As a youngster, I hoped to be able to fly in space, for the “gee whiz” factor. It isn’t going to happen for me in my life, a tough thing to acknowledge.
I hope the planned space talk will be the spark for at least one of the elementary school participants to pursue science, engineering, whatever as a career; we just don’t need any more sports communication majors, IMHO.
More memories; when “Apollo XIII” opened, we went to it as a family. It was an eerie feeling to watch the television news coverage occurring in the background as the movie proceeded, as I think I may have seen all these broadcasts “live” as the mission unfolded. I fear I bored the offspring as I was relating, post movie, the feelings I had when the whole thing was going down.
At least, the offspring got to see a slide rule in action….
I too grew up with the space program. From the earliest mercury shots – when dad lined all the kids up on the couch so we could witness “history” in the making, to watching the STS and ISS cross the evening sky today. I took one child to watch an STS launch last summer, as the dream is still alive in her generation.
Unfortunately, I no longer see a need to spend billions on space. The shot to Mars (Bush trying to sound like Kennedy) and back to the moon seem pointless to me. Yes, much science could come from these adventures. Yes, we will get another Tang and velcro.
But our nation is dying. Our dollar is declining, our national debt is the debt held by the entire planet, and we are still believers in big SUV’s and pickemup trucks which guzzle gas.
Better to tone down the program and concentrate on more THIS worldly opportunities with space science.
We don’t need to launch the STS monthly and we need to retire it. It’s well past time to develope more efficient and less costly and dangerous methods to break the bonds of earth.
Keep it current with events facing our world today: GW, water shortages, pollution, and land use. These are things which would help us today and be highly visible to the world.
Throttle it down a notch.
One last thought: If you haven’t gone to Hutchinson, Kansas and visited the Kansas Cosmosphere and Space Center, you are truly missing out!
They have all sorts of real space artifacts. I even squeezed into an actual apollo capsule~! (Gosh knowns how three men got in and spent days cramped inside).
They are restoring all sorts of things. They run a space camp for kids which is wonderful and really does keep the spirit alive.
All in our own backyard.
Are you kidding?
Look at how much Free Healthcare and other Free Stuff Government could give away to needy people if billions of dollars were not being wasted in space!
Throttle it down a notch?
The program basically ceased to exist in the 70’s. That was such a terrible waste. We have lost 30 years of the progress that could have followed.
And think of the loss in wonder and awe.
No the manned space program should be reinvigorated! We spend so much more money on much less worthwhile things.
Right now, there are 2 rovers on Mars. Their operational life was supposed to be 90 days.
They have been expanding knowledge of the planet Mars for more than 2 years now. THAT is a return on investment!
JR, did you see my posts last night?
The cosmosphere brings back memories. I remember all those early rockets blowing up on the launch pad. I also remember JFK vowing that we would put a man on the moon in the decade. We had no technology at all – he was a crazy dreamer. Ane we DID put a man on the moon.
Back then I thought that I might go into space as a scientist. However, with the vast throttling back those efforts diminished almost to zero.
They have been expanding knowledge of the planet Mars for more than 2 years now. THAT is a return on investment!
Posted by: J R | January 03, 2008 at 12:16 PM
And just exactly wherre is the return for the American people?
Has it provided anyone with healthcare? Has it improved life on this earth? Has it stopped GW, or contributed to it with all those polluting launches? Where is the “cost savings”. Where is the cost benefit analysis?
Do you know what an ROI is?
Amway and Dumcrat and to any others that do not see the need, don’t be selfish.
The space program granted that it does seem unreachable for the majority once the realization of the complexity and the mundane activity of the science are realized.
It is very sad that people will not garner enough interest into one of the most important endeavors of mankind.
Most people’s interest today is peaked only if the excitement resembles Hollywood’s portrayal of the action adventures of Star Wars.
Yes, most people do think it is a waste of money but money is a man made concept, but space exploration is something that endures beyond the money concept especially when an asteroid the size of the Shoemaker comet is hurdling towards earth.
I should have known better than to post a reasonable conservative view on spending, to the weblog liberal audience…
You don’t really give a damn about the national debt at all.
As long as your social programs move forward. Katie bar the door on anything outside your liberal Isaac Asimov dream.
JR
Damn, forgot about those little buggers. On the site now looking at imagery. Thanx.
No prob sol.
It’s terrible the media doesn’t give us regular updates on Spirit and Opportunity. What plucky little machines!
The very embodiment of America.
“And just exactly wherre is the return for the American people?
Has it provided anyone with healthcare? Has it improved life on this earth? Has it stopped GW, or contributed to it with all those polluting launches? Where is the “cost savings”. Where is the cost benefit analysis?”
Ya know you should really change the nic “American way”.
I could ask you all the same questions about….the Iraq occupation. And THAT is and will cost more than the Apollo program.
Do your own research. The returns over costs of the space program are well documented. But that is just money.
A society needs wonder too. And a nation needs more for pride then what it can do to other nations.
Nice try J R to change and redirect.
You posted about the return for the Mars probes. I asked you specifically about the ROI on those.
You don’t have a clue what a ROI or cost benefit analysis is.
The investment in the mission was for the probes to operate and do science for 90 days.
It does not enter that you think that mission unimportant or even worthless.
They exceeded what they were meant to do by FAR.
And AmWay…. About that little Iraq adventure, can you give us some examples of the ROI on that?
The Libertarian approach would be no federal funding for NASA and let private parties invest. But the advances made by space exploration are immeasurable. Where do you think NiCad batteries came from? Too many advances to list.
And AmWay…. About that little Iraq adventure, can you give us some examples of the ROI on that?
Posted by: SolDevVB | January 03, 2008 at 01:24 PM
Why Sol, the OTHER kinda lib! You want to change subjects too? Twisting and a turnin’ and spining like a top.
I never defended the subject matter you are posting about. Never brought it up.
They exceeded what they were meant to do by FAR.
Posted by: J R | January 03, 2008 at 01:20 PM
Let me try again J R: “What was the return on that investment for the American people?”
It didn’t save one starving, minority child without healthcare from dying.
It didn’t pay for one cancer treatment. It didn’t pay for one liver transplant.
At a time when this nation is 9 trillion dollars in debt, and the libs blame the “evil” Bush for all of nations woes:
You support little toy buggers on Mars?
Again, it is easy to spend other people’s money.
Sol: Ron Paul would be disappointed in you.
WOW, the first time I every agreed with Amway about throttling back the space program, then he has to go and ruin it all by slamming anyone who disagrees with him.
Sol: Ron Paul would be disappointed in you.
LMAO. Yes sir he would.
Let’s go a different route. What other nation has Mars data like ours. Data (knowledge) is power is it not? 4 years of data = lots of power.
What other country started a 3 month space program that lasted 4 years? We have perseverance. Another win.
We have proven solar technology that is survivable on another planet. We have solid state binary storage that is survivable on another planet. We have the farthest reaching RC ever imagined.
All gains for the US.
ROI.
Tell ya what “american why”
I’m not the one tearing down a national and scientific boon and calling in the ledger.
YOU go find out what the Spirit and Opportunity missions cost per American.
THEN find out what it cost if you divided it among every single human being who has or ever will live.
Hydrological science in extreme environments can be added to sols list. AND extra planetary geology.
Aw Amway, the value of “wonder and awe”, how can you put a price on that?
How much was spent on the space program in 2007 and what was the deficit?
Nevermind, Iraq, let’s blame it all on Iraq.
Posted by: Dumacrat | January 03, 2008 at 02:24 PM
DNFTT.
Posted by: Dumacrat | January 03, 2008 at 02:24 PM
How many American lives were ended by the space program in 2007?
Huh, we have new technology out of NASA, and what exactly do we have from Iraq?
DNFTT.
Posted by: Tom | January 03, 2008 at 02:27 PM
My bad
Sol,
I think that answer depends on who you ask. You know, take a minute and check in with Halliburton, KBR, or Blackwater. Billions of dollars and _zero_ accountability for heinous crimes of murder and rape.
How do I get on THAT gravy train?
http://www.halliburton.com/careers/
HAH!
Funny, Sol. Seriously, funny.
toot tooooot. the train she is a pullin out brother. Headed for dubai and freedom from taxation and presumably prosecution…
Dennis, I didn’t slam. I got sideswiped by someone turning my post around.
Sol: Mars is a win? Whom are we competing with? And what is the gain? Sorry, when your nation is operating 9 trillion dollars in the red, and all libs are screaming about Bush putting us there – it just doesn’t make sense to see us looking for water on mars. And if you read my post, I support the overall program. My approach is that we stay closer to our own earth – and work the science to resolve our problems. Locally. There is no doubt we learn as we explore. Let’s put the same about of bucks to EXPLORE an alternative energy sources: “Before the decade is out”. I didn’t tear it down, I said tone it down.
Great. We have moon rocks. But we are destroying our earth with gas guzzling SUV’s and Pickemup Trucks.
J R: You really do not have an understanding of what an ROI is. Most people use it without knowing it’s meaning.
To calculate ROI, the benefit (return) of an investment is divided by the cost of the investment; the result is expressed as a percentage or a ratio.
ROI = (Gain from Investment – Cost of Investment)/Cost of Investment
You might argue that the gain, was the additional time the probes operate beyond expectancy.
My point was, base upon your first post – there is no gain for the American taxpayer.
And what’s up with Frank and you running in a marathon together?
And AmWay…. About that little Iraq adventure, can you give us some examples of the ROI on that?
Posted by: SolDevVB | January 03, 2008 at 01:24 PM
Thanks Sol for proving the Libs are inconsistent.
If a Government venture is what the Libs want, the Libs don’t care what the cost is. Let’s go to Mars!
If a Government venture is not what the Libs want, the Libs complain about the cost. Iraq is costing $1 trillion!
“when your nation is operating 9 trillion dollars in the red”
*************************************************************************
How did we get there?
*************************************************************************
“Bush putting us there”
************************************************************************
You got THAT right
************************************************************************
“Let’s put the same a[m]ou[n]t of bucks to EXPLORE an alternative energy sources
Posted by: American Way | January 03, 2008 at 02:36 PM
I am guessing if we had “put the same amount of $$$” into energy research that we did the Iraq war, we would be oil independent. OK, that is a stretch, but you get my point.
We gain with the space program; if nothing else an understanding of our sister planets, their rise and demise. The only thing we gain in Iraq is American filled body bags.
Now I don’t feel we should dump a ton into the space program. But I DAMN sure would spend the money there first as opposed to Iraq.
Sol,
Did you see that? Max just called you a Lib!
bwahahahahaha!!!
A picture from the Moon is nice.
A picture from Mars is even better.
National Security is priceless.
Zero National Debt left for our kids and grandkids is also priceless.
Thanks Sol for proving the Libs are inconsistent.
Posted by: Max | January 03, 2008 at 02:40 PM
I’m not a lib Max. What would bother you most; a grain of sand in your eye or your head under a bolder? NASA is a grain of sand compared to Iraq. But hey, you seem to like war and Americans in body bags. More power to you.
National Security is priceless.
Zero National Debt left for our kids and grandkids is also priceless.
Posted by: Max | January 03, 2008 at 02:46 PM
And Iraq guarantees neither will be achieved.
Sol is not conservative, if he’s supporting a multi-trillion dollar Moon/Mars program.
sol – welcome to the Dark Side.
;^)
Max is not conservative, if he’s supporting a multi-trillion Iraq/Iran adventure.
The conservatives have lost their way, and their conscience.
Sol is not conservative, if he’s supporting a multi-trillion dollar Moon/Mars program.
Posted by: Max | January 03, 2008 at 02:48 PM
Max is not conservative if he supports a multi-trillion dollar war, the most expanded government in recent history and the highest debt in recent history.
Damn Max, ARE you a lib? Big government, foreign meddling, nation building???
Hey Max, check out a man named Goldwater. Maybe you’ll start to understand what conservative means.
sol – welcome to the Dark Side.
;^)
Posted by: Ben | January 03, 2008 at 02:49 PM
Are…. Are you…. Are you my FATHER?!?!?!?!?!?!?!
If you start making out with your sister, I’m outta here.
The conservatives have lost their way, and their conscience.
Posted by: Tom | January 03, 2008 at 02:51 PM
Nix Tom, what you see today are the NeoCons. We conservatives are still out there. Some of us blinded by our party’s mishaps and misadventures, but we are here none the less to one day rise and take back our party.
If you start making out with your sister, I’m outta here.
Posted by: Tom | January 03, 2008 at 02:54 PM
She’s my…. MY SISTER !?!?!?!?
At least I am consistent. I disagree with most federal spending. You’ve all read my words on FREE CHEESE (corporate or individual). The war costs. And now the space program.
I am more a libertarian than Sol!
You cannot spend money based upon if “YOU LIKE THE PROGRAM”.
If you do:
Libs like energey/space
Rep like war (your words)
Get the point? Where does the spending end? Each side has priorities, and all of them cost us money.
And Sol, our nation was six trillion dollars in debt when Bush came to power. Clinton raised us over 1.5 trillion (see yesterdays post/link to US Treasury).
It’s easy to point fingers and caste blame, and it’s easy to say “Well this program is more important (to me) than that worthless program”.
They are all equally worthless to me. Government has gotten too freakin big.
But nevermind that. We Americans like living in debt. What is the average unpaid credit card debt? $7,500 per household. Deliquency numbers are sky-rocketing (gotta find someone to blame, oh yes, blame bush).
Just like our government, we love to spend money and not pay our bills.
Someday it will come back to haunt us. The football game will contine. Libs blame cons/cons blame libs.
Sol, do you have a solid cost estimate for the Moon/Mars program to compare to the Iraq war cost?
Nope.
There ain’t one.
What is planned is a reduction or elimination of relatively inexpensive unmanned space programs that provide more scientific knowledge per dollar of expense, in order to free up money for Mars. But $16 Billion/year isn’t a dent compared to what Mars will cost. (Rough estimates are in the trillions, and so Bush proceeds with Mars even though there is no solid cost estimate.)
Gone or reduced will be Hubble, Space Station, Sattelites, and Exploratory probes.
Sol,
I don’t think “NeoCons” is the right word for what we have here. My understanding of the original neoconservative movement was that it was one of social moderates/international hawks who believed in global American hegemony.
No, what we have here is something very, very different from where Neo-Conservatism started in the 80s. This is a statist, fascistic, almost-theocratic movement that is trying to reform this nation into something unrecognizable.
Has anyone noticed the design for the Moon/Mars spacecraft?
Looks like a slightly enlarged Apollo, and is a one-time use vehicle.
Don’t ya think 50 years later we’d have a more efficient and reuseable spacecraft approach?
Tin foil wrapped around a rocket engine is the same technology from the 1960’s.
Anybody look at this piece of crap new space ship?
Max wrote (on the Huckabee thread), “Capn, who said I was going to Caucus?
“I’d have to be in Iowa to do that.”
*****
Okay, Max. What state do you live in?
I live in Kansas. In fact, I’ll go one better–I live in Wichita.
Sol is a closet Lib. I was right months ago about that. Confirmed that with his Lib posts and reaction today.
Anyone who would support Paul knows they are supporting the weakest Republican candidate, other then Brownback of course.
Max,
DNFTT (he is following you around)
Asking the benefits of the space program is rather like asking why we should care about elementary particles, or gravity. No one could have guessed the Einstein’s equations would lead to geosyncronous sattelites or MP3 players. Or that something as useless as prime numbers would lead to virtually unbreakable encryption.
Basic research is worth funding.
A manned mission to Mars may not be practical, but GO PLUTO!
P.S. Not long ago, there was talk of cutting off funds to the Voyager program. That’s right: IGNORE the data already coming in, from the most distant human-made objects in the universe.
Now THAT’s dumb!
Ahh screw it. I was going to post a bunch of links here to show what the space program has done for us. But for the Neocons in here, let’s hit their high points.
Inter contental ballistic missiles
Spy satellites
Early warning satellites
Star Wars
Fuel and aerodynamics for tactical missiles
Solar radiation devices
Protective gear
The list is too long.
Here’s a link to some other goodies…
Boeing Home / Integrated Defense Systems / Network and Space Systems / Space Exploration / International Space Station (ISS)
http://www.boeing.com/defense-space/space/spacestation/index.html
Now I don’t feel we should dump a ton into the space program. But I DAMN sure would spend the money there first as opposed to Iraq.
Posted by: SolDevVB
My take on it is both are wasteful.
Your issue of the grain of sand misses the point. If it were only one grain of sand, no problem. But the feds and other govt levels are full of lots of grains of sand. Those grains add up and they add up faster than most people realize.
I grew up near the beach. A few grains of sand on your feet are no big deal, but you can bury someone up to their neck in sand and at that point, they cant get loose.
An easy solution, which means the feds wont do it (D or R), is to live within your budget. After all, we have to. First, deficit spending and spending of precommitted dollars (like SS, etc) have to go. Next, you create an overall budget of $X, it may not be exact, but it can get closer than you think (also factor in tax refunds since these are not factored in the budget initially).
Use this overall budget to fund individual programs. If an unexpected event happens (flood, military action, whatever), the govt has to take the money from the existing budget to address the issue. The old guns vs. butter scenario.
I didnt mention going through and cutting the thousands of unnecessary, outdated, redundant, and unconstitutional programs funded.
A decent portion of the budget needs to be spent paying down the national debt.
Do I expect this to happen? Yes, but probably not until the system crashes in a big way. Our country can only dig its debt hole so deep before it caves in on us and buries us. We are fast reaching that point.
The Social Security surpluses will dry up in 2017 (if the SS Trustees Report is accurate, and in the past, it has consistently been shown to use overly optimistic numbers) and by 2025 it will be generating $100 B in deficits. By 2080 $850 Billion. Reducing benefits and raising FICA rates wont be enough. Other countries are facing the same problem with their versions of SS and are expected to be hit sooner. Japan and Italy are the two most likely countries to get hit first.
You don’t have to be a “liberal” to value science and knowledge and exporation.
But it DOES help.
We should be doing vigorous manned and unmanned programs.
Probably this is the best and most important thread here today.
And it will get so little attention.
Good for Exploration Place. The space program is one of the few truly meaningful things we do.
Posted by: J R | January 03, 2008 at 08:20 AM
Guess you were right… No ’side’ to attack or defend. Shame.
Posted by: SolDevVB
Your predictions did not hold true, did they. Posters here can always find points upon which to attack and defend.
Steven,
I didn’t count on bean counters Max and “american why” to show up here. They musta got misdirected while looking for a ledger thread.
Inter contental ballistic missiles
Spy satellites
Early warning satellites
Star Wars
Fuel and aerodynamics for tactical missiles
Solar radiation devices
Protective gear
The list is too long.
Here’s a link to some other goodies…
Boeing Home / Integrated Defense Systems / Network and Space Systems / Space Exploration / International Space Station (ISS)
http://www.boeing.com/defense-space/space/spacestation/index.html
Posted by: SolDevVB | January 03, 2008 at 03:11 PM
Oh ok Sol. Space is good for making war, which is what you said you were against.
Let’s do it then.
Have we cured cancer, heart disease, or aids yet?
No, but let’s go to Mars.
Weapons should absolutely NOT be allowed in space.
They have caused enough trouble on the Earth. I hope we can keep them there.
Space exploration should be funded primarily by commercial entities. I think Virgin Mobile did a little thing not too long ago.
The ISS and Mars program give me pause. We do need to research space and other planets. Until there is a profit to be made in space, private entities will not invest. So bending my Libertarian beliefs, NASA should be lightly funded.
As per:
Sol is a closet Lib. I was right months ago about that. Confirmed that with his Lib posts and reaction today.
Posted by: Max | January 03, 2008 at 03:08 PM
Being as you support nation building, involvement in foreign government, massive government, the redaction of civil liberties for the ‘greater good’…. The list goes on and on, I would have to assume that Max has lost sight of what conservatism is. Again, please look up a man by the name Goldwater.
Max,
“But for the Neocons in here, let’s hit THEIR high points.”
MY emphasis on THEIR.
Glad to have you on board, warmonger!
But for the Neocons in here, let’s hit their high points.
Inter contental ballistic missiles
Spy satellites
Early warning satellites
Star Wars
Fuel and aerodynamics for tactical missiles
Solar radiation devices
Protective gear
Posted by: SolDevVB | January 03, 2008 at 03:11 PM
Is your comprehension THAT far skewd Max?
Posted by: Max Grobnik | April 29, 2007 at 10:37 PM
http://blogs.kansas.com/weblog/2007/04/bloomberg_tiahr.html
Max Grobnik
Des Moines, IA
http://www.topix.com/forum/state/ia/TH07RPEO4L3U6S88P
‘Course, if I lived in Iowa, I wouldn’t want to admit it publicly either . . .
Capn,
Did you use the internets and the google?
I had the feeling Max wasn’t local.
He is never at a loss for words but as far as I know never comments on local issues.
Is that a for real last name Max?
Heh that sounds like some crony of Boris Badenov.
NASA is one the government agencies that is well worth the money spent. The scientific advances made in the space program have been of great practical benefit on the earth.
http://www.thespaceplace.com/nasa/spinoffs.html
And it allows us to dream.
They have caused enough trouble on the Earth. I hope we can keep them there.
Posted by: J R
I support your position, but reality shows it wont happen. Country A will bring weapons to space, followed by countries C, D, E, F, etc. I wouldnt be surprised if some of the satellites (ours or any other countries) dont already have weapons capabilities. I know China is working on some sort of system.
—-
Space exploration should be funded primarily by commercial entities. I think Virgin Mobile did a little thing not too long ago.
The ISS and Mars program give me pause. We do need to research space and other planets. Until there is a profit to be made in space, private entities will not invest. So bending my Libertarian beliefs, NASA should be lightly funded.
Posted by: SolDevVB
I agree commercial ventures are the way to go. The problem with too much fed money involvement is what happens next. Check some of the numerous problems with space stuff (explosions after liftoff, stuff not making it where it was going, etc.).
Capn is so proud of himself he is going to burst!
Is that all you have to do all day is follow other posters around and trash em?
And you called for a boycott against trolls??? You fit the definition to the T.
Of course, there may be more than one Max in the world….
I wish Kansas was back. You all seem lost not having him to kick around. What did it take – a couple of years to wear him down, find out his real identity (also Capn work), and pass it on?
I’ve said over and over again: Do not provide your personal information on the internet. That is the advice worldwide for a myriad of sources.
CapnAmerica is one of the reasons why.
No offense Capn. But you only post trashing others and your one liner: Worst President Ever.
Yeah, that’s proof Capn. BFD. Think what you want, I couldn’t care less.
And Capn, I’m not gay, so I’m not going on a date with you, even if you find me.
JR,
Dontcha think we already have weapons in space?
And if you want to ban them, you will have to post little red circle signs at spaceports all over the globe, and make sure all space vehicles are searched for weapons before launch.
A short list of some of the benefits of space travel – Thanx Outie
GROUND PROCESSING SCHEDULING SYSTEM
SEMICONDUCTOR CUBING
STRUCTURAL ANALYSIS
WINDOWS VISUAL NEWS READER
AIR QUALITY MONITOR
VIRTUAL REALITY
ENRICHED BABY FOOD
WATER PURIFICATION SYSTEM
Now, if these could be patented by a commercial entity… Big bucks. If there were a way to get the big corp. buck behind this the Fed could step aside and still reap the benefits. We all could.
The history of western civilization is littered with examples of government-funded exploration.
Where would we be without the Spanish crown funding Columbus’ travels? Without Britain funding the exploration of nearly all the planet’s oceans and continents?
Don’t forget the Louisiana Purchase made by our own government. That, plus the conquest of what’s now the American southwest, opened the western two-thirds of the continent to settlement and commercial exploitation. Even much of that was funded in part by the US government. The land grants to the railroads, the homestead acts for land settlers, all played their parts in making this the nation we know today.
Yes, space exploration is expensive, risky, and at times dangerous. But some risks are too big for any one person, or any one corporation, to absorb on their own.
Hey Max!
It is supposed to be warm enough to BBQ this weekend. You are invited. Planning on all you can eat crabs tomorrow night at the Argosy in the big city. Then really turn on the carbs/cholesterol with smoked ribs at home Saturday.
Where would we be without the Spanish crown funding Columbus’ travels? Without Britain funding the exploration of nearly all the planet’s oceans and continents?
Yeah, and Spain had their own Iraq of the day, didn’t they?
The Native Americans were thrilled with the Columbus government project. The LA Purchase was a real thrill for em too!
Sorry JR, must have had you confused with another JR.
The other JR was much nicer.
Big bucks. If there were a way to get the big corp. buck behind this the Fed could step aside and still reap the benefits. We all could.
Posted by: SolDevVB | January 03, 2008 at 03:41 PM
The “corporations” are who make NASA hum Sol. Those same nasty CEO’s are making BIG BUCKS building and inventing all this stuff. These inventions are by private industry – not some government smurf sitting in Houston.
Sometimes, these contractors make money building amtraks, tanks, and B-1 bombers.
Love it when Ron Paul fans and libs feed to corporate giants!
Since when is Ron Paul against corporations? Fact check much?
Ron Paul is the biggest supporter of the free market on the GOP standing. Do you know anything about Ron Paul or true conservatism?
Do you know anything about Ron Paul or true conservatism?
Posted by: SolDevVB | January 03, 2008 at 03:52 PM
Do you see why I abandoned what’s left of the Republican Party?
Me too Tom.
Not sure I can make it Amway, sounds good though.
I might be driving up to Des Moines to meet Capn.
Tom, JR,
Y’all went too far !!! Libertarinaism!!! The GOP will come back one day !!!
I have to disagree, Sol, with complete privatization of space program. The mentioned benefits are a byproduct of the goal of space travel. The problem with private funding is that, as an end, space travel and exploration is not going to be profitable in the foreseeable future. And the costs are way too big for any one company to finance. No, efforts of the magnitude of the space program need to be focused to allow for the best use of resources, or it won’t get done.
NASA contracts with and finances private companies to do the R and D. It is this partnership that allowed the technical advances and discoveries that were made.
Trying to find a way to justify it in the Libertarian realm. Guess you just have to bite the bullet. NASA holds too much to just be let go.
“JR,
“Dontcha think we already have weapons in space?”
The space race was always a weapons race. The Soviet Sputnik was a crisis here because of the obvious weapons implications of space vehicles.
I went to a Wernher von Braun museum in Alabama several years ago. There they had a soviet space capsule. It looked like junk — like a boy scout troop could build something better.
This country knew for several years that in the worst case scenario, it would take the U.S. Navy two weeks to completely destroy the Soviet Navy. But, did that stop our government from spending more and more money on ships and such. No, it did not. Nothing like weaponry to spur American spending.
“In the councils of government, we must guard against the acquisition of unwarranted influence, whether sought or unsought, by the military/industrial complex. The potential for the disastrous rise of misplaced power exists and will persist.
We must never let the weight of this combination endanger our liberties or democratic processes. We should take nothing for granted. Only an alert and knowledgeable citizenry can compel the proper meshing of the huge industrial and military machinery of defense with our peaceful methods and goals, so that security and liberty may prosper together.”
President Dwight D. Eisenhower, January 17, 1961
It’s not just a big military industrial complex that is a problem.
All of Big Government is a problem.
You think the Military is the only nefarious part of our Government?
Max,
All I did was paste in the words of one of last century’s most famous and honorable of Republicans. You read into it what you want. But leave the putting of words in my mouth to trolls, okay?
Thanks.
Pretty high horse you are on there Tom.
I asked you a simple question, which you are too sophisticated to answer apparently.
Next I’ll post something from another great American President, without comment.
Max,
Your “simple” question set up a straw-man by assigning an opinion to me which I don’t have. You asked:
“You think the Military is the only nefarious part of our Government?”
I don’t think the military, in and of itself, is “nefarious.” That you would ascribe such an opinion to me, when you have NO evidence to support that (go ahead and bone-dig; you won’t find any), shows nothing but the typical trollish behavior that has infected this blog.
This isn’t a “high horse” I’m on, Max. This is me sick of bu!!sh!t posters who are too intellectually lazy and/or dishonest to debate fairly or with civility.
It is well known that there have always been those amongst us who wish to enlarge the powers of the. General Government, and experience would seem to indicate that there is a tendency on the part of this Government to overstep the boundaries marked out for it by the Constitution. Its legitimate authority is abundantly sufficient for all the purposes for which it was created, and its powers being expressly enumerated, there can be no justification for claiming anything beyond them. Every attempt to exercise power beyond these limits should be promptly and firmly opposed, for one evil example will lead to other measures still more mischievous; and if the principle of constructive powers or supposed advantages or temporary circumstances shall ever be permitted to justify the assumption of a power not given by the Constitution, the General Government will before long absorb all the powers of legislation, and you will have in effect but one consolidated government. From the extent of our country, its diversified interests, different pursuits, and different habits, it is too obvious for argument that a single consolidated government would be wholly inadequate to watch over and protect its interests; and every friend of our free institutions should be always prepared to maintain unimpaired and in full vigor the rights and sovereignty of the States and to confine the action of the General Government strictly to the sphere of its appropriate duties.
There is, perhaps, no one of the powers conferred on the Federal Government so liable to abuse as the taxing power. The most productive and convenient sources of revenue were necessarily given to it, that it might be able to perform the important duties imposed upon it; and the taxes which it lays upon commerce being concealed from the real payer in the price of the article, they do not so readily attract the attention of the people as smaller sums demanded from them directly by the taxgatherer. But the tax imposed on goods enhances by so much the price of the commodity to the consumer, and as many of these duties are imposed on articles of necessity which are daily used by the great body of the people, the money raised by these imposts is drawn from their pockets. Congress has no right under the Constitution to take money from the people unless it is required to execute some one of the specific powers intrusted to the Government; and if they raise more than is necessary for such purposes, it is an abuse of the power of taxation, and unjust and oppressive. It may indeed happen that the revenue will sometimes exceed the amount anticipated when the taxes were laid. When, however, this is ascertained, it is easy to reduce them, and in such a case it is unquestionably the duty of the Government to reduce them, for no circumstances can justify it in assuming a power not given to it by the Constitution nor in taking away the money of the people when it is not needed for the legitimate wants of the Government.
Plain as these principles appear to be, you will yet find there is a constant effort to induce the General Government to go beyond the limits of its taxing power and to impose unnecessary burdens upon the people. Many powerful interests are continually at work to procure heavy duties on commerce and to swell the revenue beyond the real necessities of the public service, and the country has already felt the injurious effects of their combined influence. They succeeded in obtaining a tariff of duties bearing most oppressively on the agricultural and laboring classes of society and producing a revenue that could not be usefully employed within the range of the powers conferred upon Congress, and in order to fasten upon the people this unjust and unequal system of taxation extravagant schemes of internal improvement were got up in various quarters to squander the money and to purchase support. Thus one unconstitutional measure was intended to be upheld by another, and the abuse of the power of taxation was to be maintained by usurping the power of expending the money in internal improvements. You can not have forgotten the severe and doubtful struggle through which we passed when the executive department of the Government by its veto endeavored to arrest this prodigal scheme of injustice and to bring back the legislation of Congress to the boundaries prescribed by the Constitution. The good sense and practical judgment of the people when the subject was brought before them sustained the course of the Executive, and this plan of unconstitutional expenditures for the purposes of corrupt influence is, I trust, finally overthrown.
Great job, Max!
Without attribution, you’re quoting the slave-owning man who signed and enforced the “Indian Removal Act.”
Two of the most shameful parts of this nation’s history.
Great job!
From another great President:
But the most direct and significant kind of federal action aiding economic growth is to make possible an increase in private consumption and investment demand — to cut the fetters which hold back private spending. In the past, this could be done in part by the increased use of credit and monetary tools, but our balance of payments situation today places limits on our use of those tools for expansion. It could also be done by increasing federal expenditures more rapidly than necessary, but such a course would soon demoralize both the government and our economy. If government is to retain the confidence of the people, it must not spend more than can be justified on grounds of national need or spent with maximum efficiency. And I shall say more on this in a moment.
The final and best means of strengthening demand among consumers and business is to reduce the burden on private income and the deterrents to private initiative which are imposed by our present tax system — and this administration pledged itself last summer to an across-the-board, top-to-bottom cut in personal and corporate income taxes to be enacted and become effective in xxxx.
I’m not talking about a “quickie” or a temporary tax cut, which would be more appropriate if a recession were imminent. Nor am I talking about giving the economy a mere shot in the arm, to ease some temporary complaint. I am talking about the accumulated evidence of the last five years that our present tax system, developed as it was, in good part, during World War II to restrain growth, exerts too heavy a drag on growth in peace time; that it siphons out of the private economy too large a share of personal and business purchasing power; that it reduces the financial incenitives [sic] for personal effort, investment, and risk-taking. In short, to increase demand and lift the economy, the federal government’s most useful role is not to rush into a program of excessive increases in public expenditures, but to expand the incentives and opportunities for private expenditures.
Under these circumstances, any new tax legislation — and you can understand that under the comity which exists in the United States Constitution whereby the Ways and Means Committee in the House of Representatives have the responsibility of initiating this legislation, that the details of any proposal should wait on the meeting of the Congress in January. But you can understand that, under these circumstances, in general, that any new tax legislation enacted next year should meet the following three tests:
First, it should reduce the net taxes by a sufficiently early date and a sufficiently large amount to do the job required. Early action could give us extra leverage, added results, and important insurance against recession. Too large a tax cut, of course, could result in inflation and insufficient future revenues — but the greater danger is a tax cut too little, or too late, to be effective.
Second, the new tax bill must increase private consumption, as well as investment. Consumers are still spending between 92 and 94 percent on their after-tax income, as they have every year since 1950. But that after-tax income could and should be greater, providing stronger markets for the products of American industry. When consumers purchase more goods, plants use more of their capacity, men are hired instead of laid-off, investment increases, and profits are high.
Corporate tax rates must also be cut to increase incentives and the availability of investment capital. The government has already taken major steps this year to reduce business tax liability and to stimulate the modernization, replacement, and expansion of our productive plant and equipment. We have done this through the 1962 investment tax credit and through the liberalization of depreciation allowances — two essential parts of our first step in tax revision — which amounted to a ten percent reduction in corporate income taxes worth 2.5 billion dollars. Now we need to increase consumer demand to make these measures fully effective — demand which will make more use of existing capacity and thus increase both profits and the incentive to invest. In fact, profits after taxes would be at least 15 percent higher today if we were operating at full employment.
For all these reasons, next year’s tax bill should reduce personal as well as corporate income taxes: for those in the lower brackets, who are certain to spend their additional take-home pay, and for those in the middle and upper brackets, who can thereby be encouraged to undertake additional efforts and enabled to invest more capital.
Max,
Taxes don’t kill innocent women and children, and kill and maim thousands of American service men and women.
Wars do.
Say Tom, maybe you don’t know history, but most of the early Presidents owned slaves.
Andrew Jackson was the first Democrat POTUS. You don’t like his quote about the danger of Big Government?
Bill Clinton owned Monica Lewinsky and some other slaves. It’s not over for the Democrats.
A war like Vietnam Tom?
Which two Presidents escalated the war in Vietnam and which President ended that war?
I just posted two quotes without comment Tom.
There is no reason for you to put words into my mouth.
Max,
Party labels from nearly 200 years ago are SOOOO relevant today. Your use of them to “score debating points” points to an intellect that is, well, just _dizzying._
And the “they did it too!!” is to be expected from a partisan shill. When logic fails, blame the other side.
And if that doesn’t work…
BILL CLINTON!!! BILL CLINTON!!!
Just dizzying.
Max,
I didn’t put words into your mouth. No where did I say “you think” anything.
Your own words speak so much better than mine ever could.
Which two Presidents escalated the war in Vietnam and which President ended that war?
JFK, LBJ
Ford
And your point is?
Max,
Perhaps you don’t pay very close attention. Perhaps you do. Who knows?
But long-time posters here know I was a Republican until just a few years ago. One of the _most important_ reasons I registered as such back in 1979 was because I saw a Democratic Party that was too quick to resort to getting us involved in foreign civil wars. The decisions of Truman, and Kennedy/Johnson, had a direct impact on my family: my father was a “lifer” Marine who served two tours in Vietnam, and my stepfather served in Korea.
Again, shifting definitions of party labels means _nothing._ Today’s warmongers are…
…Republicans.
Ugh.
So now Tom is like the poster child for the tiny nucleus of liberals in Wichita. They run him in parades and allow him to make long speeches.
Pacifism weenie for the masses. Son of war hero stands against all war.
A local Cindy Sheehan.
How gives a rats azz about your personal history.
Today, you are a liberal. Congratulations. But you are just one of a handful in Kansas.
Shifting from one party to another and your personal history makes you the libs hero.
“Capn is so proud of himself he is going to burst!
“Is that all you have to do all day is follow other posters around and trash em?”
*****
AmWay, take a pill.
I asked Max a question which he refuses to answer–”in what state does Max reside?”
I don’t believe that is “trashing someone” or even getting too personal.
What state do you live in, AmWay?
As for me, Kansas . . .
I asked Max a question which he refuses to answer–”in what state does Max reside?”
I don’t believe that is “trashing someone” or even getting too personal.
What state do you live in, AmWay?
As for me, Kansas . . .
Posted by: CapnAmerica | January 03, 2008 at 11:20 PM
CrapOnAmerica doesn’t really care what state Max lives in.
CrapOnAmerica wants to gather personal data on Max, so he can post harassing posts with Max’s real identity, address, phone number and email so he won’t have to listen what the other side has to say.
Along with his sidekicks Steven Davis and J R, they will use personal information to post on this blog to chase away posters who post opposing views.
Blackmailing and extortion activities are supported by the Wichita Eagle because nothing was ever done to the posters mentioned.
But hey, what can you expect from CrapOnAmerica, a commie with a Napoleonic complex.
Capn, I could be in your backyard, and you wouldn’t know the difference.
No one else cares, why do you?
Capn, you ever post on a blog that resides outside of Kansas?
Is that possible?
Wow! The World Wide Web! Isn’t it amazing?
I could be in Timbuktu and no one would know the difference.
I’m not interested Capn, I AM NOT GAY.
“kansas” = Max
I should have known.
Now I do.
And the blog will too.
KHAN is back!
Yes!
Kansas, with you being gone, the homosexual predators like Capn had to switch to someone else.
Yikes! Doth it be me? Oh my stars!
What will I do? What WILL I do?
Nothin.
Cause I don’t give a flying rip.
They can knock on my door anytime,
And I will greet them with a 45.
Come on over boys,
and bring more then one.
Cause you ain’t man enough,
to face just one.
Threaten me all you like,
cause Kansas is right.
The WE Blog does not care,
they think liability is not theirs.
Little do they know,
What liability lurks for them.
JR, just call you blog buddies in the morning after you get up at 10.
Have them check the IP’s like you always do.
Then shake in your boots, when you find there is not one, but two.
And F U.
Khan, did I about cover it all?
:)
And another face of mclure unmasked….
See now I know where J R lives and the Capn.
They should be afraid, very afraid.
Damn I feel like such a fool.
Here I was thinking “Max” was a banty rooster little corporate toady suck up.
And it is just another face of the welfare recipient “kansas”.
Well come see a fat old man some time “khan”.
“American way” is likely also a construct.
Khan, they have nothin to fear, unless they attack one of us.
I would hope in the morning, the WE Blog does some serious review of the posts here, to see who is threatening who.
Khan, the WE Blog IS complicit in this, should something happen to me, or to you.
I’ve already emailed this page to a back-up, so that he will follow-up should anything happen.
It’s time for the WE Blog to police this blog. If not, sooner or later they will pay the price for allowing the nuts to post here without any editing at all by the blog host.
Have a nice evening everyone!
It’s been so pleasant, hasn’t it?
I can make you famous “khan”.
Me I like fans. If you can, you do the same for me.
Can you say Sicko Pyscho?
My God JR, you really are nuts.
If dangerous too, the WE Blog will have to pay for you.
heh heh heh
I’m wondering, how do I score this?
I only HELPED “kansas” take himself down. Do I score “Max” as a “kill” also?
This is fun. Get out “American way” to play too.
what a dipshit J R is.
he actually thinks he has something.
Yup. I gots me a full on pshycho and troublemaker on the blog.
And I am dismantling, worrying, and otherwise destroying same.
The night and your loneliness in it is yours “kansas” “Max” etc.
I do so like having you at a disadvantage.
Kansas, your 12:18 post was a compliment.
Knock it off now!
The only thing JR has, is in his dominant hand.
(After zooming in on his webcam, it appears to be a pencil or something like that.)
Yup. I gots me a full on pshycho and troublemaker on the blog.
And I am dismantling, worrying, and otherwise destroying same.
Posted by: J R
The only psychos on the board are the liberals. Capn and JR, if they are two different people are the ones stalking others and threatening them with physical harm.
Talk about psychos, you think everyone is Kansas. You talk about your personal life, but you spend so much time on here this is your personal life. I believe certain serial killers acted the same way.
Lol
Multiple identities in the same poster talking to each other.
Dude, get help.
Thread summary:
I see J R had his usual meltdown last night. Continued with the mouth this morning. Someone must have really gotten his goat.
CapnObvious was here as well, doing what he does best: NOT post opinions on the thread subject.
It is apparent Capn and J R spend their time chasing trying to bully others.
They lost Kansas, so they picked a new victim.
I’m afraid they’ve met their match with Max.
Regardless, I would encourage Max to not bother replying to them. These two posters meet all the criteria of the definition of Troll.
They spout off like they are always on troll patrol. But they are the worst of the lot.
It’s sad, the editors allow this type of conduct. This thread should have been closed hours ago.