WE Blog

Foreign markets just follow what the markets here do. If ours drops today, they drop by about the same tomorrow. If ours go up today, they go up tomorrow.

The Bush Economic Incentive plan is designed to put money into the pockets of those least likely to spend it immediately, therefore having zero effect on stimulating the economy.

No wonder foreign markets think little of it.

It is just another Bush ploy to aid the more well off and penalize the working poor.

The man has no shame.

“Federal Revenue is at an all time high.”

And the National Debt is also at an all time high.

What’s your point?

The threat of all-out war, which Bush and his Zionist buddies created, drove-up the price of crude, which in turn drove-up gasoline to 3 dollars a gallon, which in turn ate a hole through our economy.

In a nutshell.

And I told you so.

“the debt will take care of itself.”

Well, Paul, you are just deluding yourself.

Did the debt “take care of it’s self during the Reagan years?

Did the debt “take care of it’s self during the Bush I years?

Did the debt “take care of it’s self during the Bush II years?

The Debt has gone up by $3.2 trillion during the Bush II years – is that how it should take care of it’s self?

And, by the way, Paul, we have yet to pay off the debt from World War II.

Is that a matter of debt taking care of it’s self?

Econ101
Posted January 21, 2008 at 6:40 pm | Permalink
As long as GDP rises faster, in percentage terms, then the debt, the debt will take care of itself.
—
:lol:

THAT is insane. And that also, ladies and germs, is why the Republics will lose come November. You guys just can’t stop the doubling down, can you? Sure, and just what is it Wall Street is betting against then?

The tooth fairy?

In the immortal words of our beloved Capt. O’Hagan, “I’ll believe ya when me sh*t turns purple and smells like rainbow sherbet.”

If we have self-described “conservatives” arguing that deficits don’t matter, that if the growth in the public debt can somehow be compared to the growth in GDP (and assuming, of course, that GDP will always grow “faster” than debt, no matter what the interest expense is … according to this looniness GDP can be a tenth of the public debt but as long as GDP is growing faster “in percentage terms” then everything’s peachy keen) then who cares about growth in government? This puts to the lie everything the Republics have ever said about any harmful effects of growth in government. After all, the trick is to show (one way or another) that GDP grows “faster” than the public debt, right?

:lol:

Oh this is rich. SS privatization? Sure. National healthcare? Why not, its effect on GDP would be like a B12 shot in grandpa’s hind end. Massive spending on infrastructure? Why not, since it too will boost GDP. Grow the Pentagon at the same time? Why not? How about bringing back welfare? Why not, if it encourages consumption?

But why trust the Republics to do the job right? These guys complain at every turn about growth in all discretionary spending. Look at Max, for example. Hell, everybody knows that if you want government spending done up right, you elect Democrats. NOBODY does pyramid schemes like Democrats…until now. :lol:

I know of at least one “conservative” who’s on board!

Jesus. Talk about screwing the pooch. :lol:

Mega dittos, WSC.

When things are bad and the president is a ‘Puke, then “the president can’t do anything about the economy.”

But when things are good and the pres is a ‘Puke, then “whoa! how about that president, dude.”

According to Paul and his ilk, the 8 years of debt reduction and improving economy for all was just coincidence.

I meant of course, 8 good years under Clinton were just coincidence.

The seven bad years under Bush?

Same.

Here’s something that the coincidence theorists can’t fully explain:

The Federal Reserve is part of a world-wide communist conspiracy.

Whew . . . okay . . .

Might need a little quiet time in the rubber room, heavily sedated . . .

Jesus, CapnAm, in that chart do I see strong evidence for the idea that tax cuts do NOT pay for themselves?

Check that: REAL strong evidence.

:lol:

Fiscal policy on Econ101’s planet:

1) Tax cuts pay for themselves, always.

2) The public debt is irrelevant.

Anybody want to bet that Econ101 may know a LOT more than he’s letting on about Chapter 11 & 13 bankruptcy laws?

:LOL:

Anybody got a magnifying glass?

Oh . . . it says that tax revenues are going up under Bush.

[in a voice like Gomer Pyle] “surprize, surprize, surprize”

The economy grew and tax receipts went up. However they didn’t go up nearly as fast as debt went up.

:lol:

Hey James, your chart fails to break out the effecst on tax revenue of the tax cut and its subsequent stimulus effect (due to deficit spending) on GDP.

I can just as easily argue that tax revenues grew because by cutting taxes we borrowed our way to larger income, but the tax cut had no direct effect on tax revenue. In fact, it actually lead to an opportunity cost equal to the differential in tax rates applied to total GDP.

Can you show me I’m wrong? (don’t expect me to wait up, tho :lol:)

Ooh, the Powerpoint secretary’s first line of defense: fudging the scale to ameliorate slope.

Whoda thunk THAT?

:lol:

You noticed that too, eh, Pedant.

Yup, this is a grade school trick to make changes seem bigger than they are.

Look at the graph–2.15 Trillion – 2.00 Trillion four years earlier is only 150 billion more, or an increase of 7.5 percent.

And that’s after it FELL precipitously for several intervening years.

There you go CapnAmerica and Pedant, straight from the source and oversight of the Treasury Department by the United States Congress which is controlled by the Democratic Party.

Looks to me revenue is growing, tax receipts are growing, deficit has been reduced, exports are growing.

But you know, if it wasn’t true, the Democratic Party in Congress has oversight and could have said something about it, but they didn’t.

Or, one can go to alternative unknown sources and post propaganda. :)

source:
http://www.businessandmedia.org/specialreports/2004/jobs_study/sr20041014.asp

'http://img233.imageshack.us/img233/1973/economicg
rowthgb1.jpg' alt='clintonbush economic growth' />

Regular
Posted January 21, 2008 at 8:24 pm | Permalink
You know Pedant and CapnAmerica, if you call the Treasury Department liars, then deal with it if the Democratic Party takes office in 2009.

The Treasury Department is composed of career employees and overseen by Congress.

I’ll remind you of that in 2009 if the Democrats win.
—
:lol:

Sure you will.

If the Democrats do for the economy in 2009 what Bill Clinton did beginning in 1992, we’ll never hear a peep out of you.

You can bet on that. :D

The one sentence in the paragraph lifted below, pretty much sums up the Bush legacy. Can you guess which sentence I’m referring to?
“It’s another horrible day,” said Francis Lun, a general manager at Fulbright Securities in Hong Kong. “Today it’s because of disappointment that the U.S. stimulus (package) is too little, too late and investors feel it won’t help the economy recover.”

Well Pedant,

One can be a pessimist and a whiner or be smart about their investments regardless of the situation.

In the 1990s, I moved my investments out of the U.S. into Canada because ears close to the ground warned about the dot.com bust. They were right and I saved a bundled.

Doug
Posted January 21, 2008 at 8:57 pm | Permalink
Hooooold on! Why do we need $800 anyway? Is that the Republicans way of admitting trickle down economics really doesn’t work and the economy is based upon the buying power of the masses?

Besides, the money isn’t a “tax rebate” it’s a loan. The money we borrow from China and Saudi Arabia will go into our Reagan debt, er, national debt and we’ll be paying interest on that for the next 30 years.
—
I think this is what’s going on:

The markets are punishing Bush for not pushing for more permanent tax increases. They quite rightly deduce that a one time tranfer, even a one-time $1,600 transfer, would provide too little of the only kind of stimulus we’re used to under Bush: borrow and spend stimulus. Borrow and spend is the lifeblood of today’s US economy. It’s our only economic engine after 7 sorry years of supply-side nonsense.

If these temporary or one-time tax cuts Bush proposes were permanent, Wall Street would be danding the fandango tomorrow. So would London, and so would Asia.

So why not make them permanent? Because both Bernanke and Bush’s Treasury Secretary Henry Paulson are on record that further tax cuts add to the public debt. And that in turn is because permanent tax cuts do NOT pay for themselves.

The public debt matters, according to Wall Street’s valuation. And thank God at least a handful of adults in Washington are adult enough to admit that sometimes we can’t afford to pay the opportunity cost associated with permanent tax cuts.

It always tickles me, when someone talks about the good clinton years economy, the Repubs. immediately credit it to Regan cutting taxes, but his voodo economics just skips over bush 1 and Clinton ends up the beneficiary!

You arm chair Economist are hilarious with your un-knowledge
of how it all works. I am sure Tuesday will all be better

I’m not a ward of the state Junior.

It was a nice try, but much misinformed.

I’ve been investing since 1980, I had ups and downs, learned a few things.

But hey JR, don’t let your lack of substance in your writings keep you from posting anything meaningful on the forums.

“I am sure Tuesday will all be better”

Huh? English translation please.

J R, if you don’t feed a troll, it really, really really pisses him off.

Not telling you what to do or say, of course – I have too much respect for you to do that – but ignoring the troll seems to anger him even more than what you may post.

Anyway, pissing off trolls is a lot of fun on a slick, January night in Kansas.

Thanks Clark. You’re right. That clown is not worth responding to…

World markets plunge on US recession fears

More than £77 billion was wiped off the value of Britain’s stock market yesterday in its biggest one-day percentage loss since September 11, 2001. Shares across the world plunged over fears that the threatened US recession will undermine the global economy.

London’s leading shares tumbled by 5.5 per cent in brutal market conditions, with the FTSE 100 index losing more than 323 points, its steepest points fall on record, to end the day at 5,578.2.

George Soros, the billionaire investor who prompted Britain’s withdrawal from the European exchange-rate mechanism on Black Wednesday in 1992, said the situation was “much more serious than any financial crisis since the end of the war”. Investors were “drowning in a sea of red,” said Henk Potts, an equity strategist at Barclays Stockbrokers.

The losses in London and across Europe came as global markets remained fearful that President Bush’s plans for tax cuts to stave off a US recession would not give a big enough boost to growth. Warnings from two leading US banks that the losses from America’s sub-prime home loans crisis were spreading to China triggered a sell-off of shares in Asia, which quickly rippled around the world.

Related Links
Warning of more turmoil as markets slump
Fear of the unknown takes toll
City concern at Treasury deficit figures
Multimedia
Graphic: the market misery at a glance
The FTSE is now on the brink of a new bear market. The index has fallen about 13 per cent since the start of the year — its worst start to any year since its creation in 1984. With the market now down more than 17 per cent from its recent peak, set in mid-July last year, it is on the verge of the 20 per cent losses that would now signal bear market conditions — when investors expect sustained declines in share values.

The latest bloody trading day fuelled growing anxieties that America’s economic woes will spread across the Atlantic and infect Britain at a time when the economy is already faltering under the toll of sliding house prices, and an emerging slowdown in consumer spending.

New York stock markets were closed yesterday, but traders will return today with futures markets already pointing to steep losses.

Fears over the outlook for shares worldwide and broader world economic prospects were stoked yesterday by Mr Soros, who told Der Standard, a Vienna daily newspaper, that the danger of a US recession spreading to Europe was clear. “Naturally there is such a threat,” he said. “It’s just surprising that this has been so little understood.”

The timing and tone of Mr Soros’s warning struck home with nerve-wracked investors in Europe already in a state of high anxiety over deteriorating US and European conditions.

Across Europe, bourses succumbed to a ferocious sell-off, with Germany’s benchmark Dax index plunging by 7 per cent, and France’s CAC40 registering losses on almost the same scale.

The combined losses of the London, Paris and Frankfurt markets alone amounted to more than $350 billion (£180 billion) — roughly the size of the combined economies of New Zealand, Hungary and Singapore.

Official acknowledgement of the dangers to world economies came from Dominique Strauss-Kahn, the managing director of the International Monetary Fund. “The situation is serious,” he said. “All countries are suffering from the slowdown in growth in the US.”

Signs emerged yesterday that China, which will be the biggest single national contributor to global growth this year, could be hit by serious losses at its banks from the US sub-prime home loans debacle. Until recently, investors had believed that Chinese banks were well-insulated from the crisis. But that assumption was challenged yesterday by warnings from two leading banks that big Chinese banking groups could be forced to write-down millions in losses on sub-prime investments.

China’s financial regulator said banks in his country had also built up substantial amount of bad loans during an investment boom.

Sliding scale

Biggest falls for the FTSE 100 or its equivalent since 1935

11.4% Oct 20, 1987 Fears over UK economic outlook
9.1% Oct 19, 1987 Black Monday
7.3% Mar 1, 1974 Shock Labour election win stuns market
7.2% Oct 26, 1987 Market swings lower after brief rally
6.4% 29 May, 1962 Big drop on US steel industry woes
6.4% Jan 2, 1975 Burmah Oil financial crisis
6.1% Mar 11, 1975 Wild market dip on Burmah Oil crisis fallout
5.7% Sept 11, 2001 Attack on the World Trade Centre
5.5% Jan 21, 2008 Investor fears of recession
5.5% Dec 6, 1973 Oil shocks, Opec raises prices
5.4% Sept 26, 1938 Second World War looms
5.4% Dec 14, 1973 Market dips again on oil crisis
5.4% Mar 16, 1938 Fears of war, rising taxes
5.4% Oct 22, 1987 October 1987 sell-off continued

Source: David Schwartz – Stock Market Historian.

Have your say

Sorry but it aint all Georgie’s fault. We’ve had/have a do nothing congress for too many years. More interested in getting re-elected than solving our problems. A pox onGeorgie & Congress.

Wingy, Centennial, CO., USA

Don’t blame George, blame the People who elected him. Twice. We WANTED to believe that it was OK to buy stuff we didn’t need with money we didn’t have financed with home equity that didn’t exist. Hey! Anybody still think that privatizing social security is a great idea?

Gene Walsh, dunmore,

The reality is that it is exactly Europe’s restraint and hesitancy toward the chaotic economic liberalization which Mr. Soros promotes, which has left it to some degree insulated from the present American correction.

The last thing Mr. Soros wants to see is a repetition on a larger and more prominent scale, of Malaysia surviving almost unscathed his Southeast Asian crisis.

Fortunately for him the device of doom-saying bringing down consumer confidence is tried and true.

Bill, Boston , USA

Cabrini- so true.
The US and the world has been pick-pocketed by Bush & Co. whilst they’ve diverted our attentions toward their slight-of-hand distractions (fake morality, fake conflicts, fake justice, etc.).

I can see it now ala cheap western: They pull out of the station on last train out of town, leaning from a brass railing, tipping their velvety top-hats and waving a frilly-sleeved “bye bye” to us rubes who are left in a cloud of their dust and smoke. We squint and blink, mouth-agape, while our buckets of tar grow cold and our feathers carry off in the slpstream. Finally, as the crowd slowly disperses, we drag ourselves back to our clapboard home only to find their overdue hotel bill waiting in our mailbox.

Jojo Mojo, Gainesville, GA, USA

If Soros is saying it’s happening, it’s because he’s using his money to make it happen. Warren Buffet isn’t saying it’s a recession. Market corrections happen all the time. The capital goes somewhere else for a while, and then things come back. This wasn’t caused by Bush; it was caused by too much money in the housing market, and that money came from money leaving the tech stock market.

Don’t panic and don’t start floundering about. In the long term, things will be fine.

Gregory Baker, Odenton, Maryland, USA

So this will be Bush’s legacy: an unnecessary war and economic havoc wrought upon the world. Good goin’ Georgie!

cabrini180, New York, USA

http://business.timesonline.co.uk/tol/business/economics/article3228186.ece?&EMC-Bltn=NLXAP4

I value this forum and my earned integrity on it Nathan.

If you have an example of where I have lied, please post it and I will correct or explain your spin.

JR,

I don’t treat you like dirt, you act like dirt and throw yourself under my feet like dirt and when I step on you, you get to play your victim card and feel sorry for yourself.

Wow…

My own little hate filled fan club.

Let me guess, the members are:

WS Clark, Linda, Wendy, Steven Davis, and KFG?

I find it sad, that of all things you use, you use your own Grand Daughter to defend your stupidity.

Your over reaction and complete melt down over my comment was your doing.

Don’t hide behind your grand kids as if you were doing it all for them.

Your actions and comnplete refusal to be reasonable and stop crying about my comment were your doing WS Clark.

Be a man and stop using your Grand Daughter as an excuse.

How sad.

Fine JR.

We play.

Nighty – night, Nathan, don’t forget to wear your footy PJ’s tonight, it’s getting cold.

Yes, you can sleep with your Teddy and your cap gun, if it makes you feel better.

Little boys need big toys to help them sleep.

Night, Ya’ll!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I’ll tell you about fear; when I walk the streets, black people lock their car doors. No lie.

#
sugar
Posted January 22, 2008 at 7:04 am | Permalink

“In the 1990s, I moved my investments out of the U.S. into Canada because ears close to the ground warned about the dot.com bust. They were right and I saved a bundled.” {Posted by Regular}
==========================

All of the arm-flailing about the evils of a Socialist Economy, and what do we find?? REGULAR moved his investments out of the Good Ol’ USA Capitalist Economy, into the Socialist economy of Canada??? Wow, what hypocrisy!!
———————————

No, Canada would be a Socialist Government, not a Socialist Economy. They are very much Capitalists. :)