New York Times columnist Paul Krugman argues that supporters of Barack Obama’s call to rise above partisanship should learn from the lessons of Bill Clinton, who made similar appeals when he first ran for president but then was savaged from day one by partisan Republicans.
“Those who don’t want to nominate Hillary Clinton because they don’t want to return to the nastiness of the 1990s — a sizable group, at least in the punditocracy — are deluding themselves,†Krugman wrote. “Any Democrat who makes it to the White House can expect the same treatment: an unending procession of wild charges and fake scandals.
“The point is that while there are valid reasons one might support Obama over Clinton, the desire to avoid unpleasantness isn’t one of them.â€
194 Comments
Mr. Krugman assessed the situation fairly well.
Sad, but true. Of course, the nastiness goes both ways, neither political group has exhibited any behavior of which they should consider exemplary. This is evidenced here on this blog..the insults, the personal attacks and the nastiness–all because of differing opinions–is extremely immature.
Sounds like Krugman is a Clinton guy. He is right though, that it is a nasty partisan environment(both sides). But how does it end Mr. Krugman, if no one tries?
“Are Obama supporters deluding themselves?”
Yes.
It would be more difficult if Hillary is the nominee. There are no surprises. She has been investigated till the cows come home and every smidgen of smear available has been presented, enlarged and exaggerated. The “unending procession of wild charges and fake scandals” has been aired and defended, aired and defended.
And everyone has made up their mind on whether they believe them or not.
I am a realist and I know the chances of Obama winning are about nil. I still support him but that does not mean I am deluding myself. If anybody is deluding themselves it is the loyal fans that support Ron Paul. They make lots of noise and produce few votes. At least Obama has a 1 in 10 shot of winning which is about 100 times what Paul has.
As for the nastiness if he does win, he needs to be nasty. We are not voting for and electing Democrats to be “nice” the the Republicans. Politics is about destroying your enemies. Tom Delay understands that. Karl Rove understands that. Why Democrats do not is beyond me. They think that they can “play nice” with the Republicans and make the Republicans like them. I do not want my enemy to like me. I want to destroy my enemy! And the Democrats need to do to the GOP what the GOP has been doing to them for 8 years! Throw dirt on them, deny funding of their pet programs and their districts and cut off their donors unless they either switch parties of at least agree to “play ball”.
You know this is just asinine.
I reference to Bill Clinton; “Any Democrat who makes it to the White House can expect the same treatment: an unending procession of wild charges and fake scandals.”
What wild charges? With Bill Clinton they were all valid and true!
Agreed, writerdog, but that’s what this country has come to.
Is it the people who started this, or is it the peoples’ reaction to what they’ve been taught by the leaders?
Springfield,
Thanks for proving the point.
RD, I had the same thought after reading that post. We really have all made up our minds and we’re NOT changing them.
What charges weren’t true? The stains are there to prove it! To sit there pointing a finger at the American people with a scowl on his face saying, “I did not have sex with that woman”. Ha! And questioning the definition of “if”. What a joke for a presidential leader.
And not taking Ben Ladin out when it opportunity was presented to him with the results of that. Easy to see where his priorities were. Anytime the country’s military finds their Commander in Chief disgusting there’s a really problem with the guy as President.
Actually some of this nasty partisanship bickering would simmer down if Americans didn’t play into it so much, from choosing sides. If people didn’t subject themselves to being minion loyalist to one party then maybe the people in Washington would take some cues from the public that their wingnut agendas are not what people want. Hell fox news is so successful because people are loyal to those views, theres enough wingnuts among us citizens to keep extremists in DC alive. Same for the Democrats, I see just as many Democrats in here if not more than Rep. display their utter hate towards the right for blind reasons. In my opinion I see good sides to both parties, and I also see a really dangerous side to both parties. Both sides seek a powerful government for very different reasons, and that is what I don’t like. The left wants to wipe everybody’s ass, and the right wants to own everybody’s ass.
Hey, Washington, its my ass not yours, and I can wipe it myself.
Krugman is absolutely correct. The Clinton-haters unleashed their vitriol even before inauguration. That same bunch will be after the new president immediately upon election. Obama should offer the olive branch; however he should be prepared to discard it and fight back.
I don’t know which of the right-wing talkers it was but it was interesting to hear the anti-McCain vitriol on KNSS last night about 7 PM or so. He was WAY over the top. And he is indicative of what we will see next year – BIG TIME!
“The left wants to wipe everybody’s ass, and the right wants to own everybody’s ass.”
I laughed. Then I recognized that there’s some truth to that. Perhaps more accurately, the right wants everyone to own their own ass.
Springfield I hate to ruin your day, but the fact is that ninety nine percent of all the accusations against Bill Clinton were determine to be unfounded. The author of “trooper gate” and the book on the Anita Hill story has come clean. He is a reformed Neo-con and has confused that virtually everything from White water to the cattle deal was nothing more than taking a little truth and building a paper castle out of it. Funny you mention the “stain” that was the only thing that was the real truth. And they did not even know about it until they accidentally found it while looking for other thing to build into lies. You can thank the same people that got us into Iraq for the deception. I know it is a hard pill to shallow my own hatred for Clinton ran equally deep and because of it I was ready to believe anything bad about him and Hillary. But the truth is the truth and the truth is the country and the party was used by some very Un-American people.
He is a reformed Neo-con and has “confessed” that virtually
correction.
Take power, and then negotiate with the enemy through strength!
I don’t care about Bill Clinton. Obama can win, Hillary cannot. If you want another 4 years of republicans in the white house, vote Clinton.
WD : Anita Hill was Clarence Thomas’s scandal babe. Perhaps you meant Gennifer Flowers, Juanita Broaddrick, Kathleen Willey, Paula Jones, or Monica Lewinsky?
Here is a “founded” charge against Clinton. It seems that if you help (or at least look the other way) to run dope from your state, you can become a President. Just Google “Mena Arkansas+ Drugs+ Clinton”, it’s all over the place.
Deluding themselves? I couldn’t think of a more off-color remark.
Barack Obama will do WONDERS for this country. We have so much to be proud of in his candidacy.
Surely we’ve learned something from pelosi and reid’s disaster in congress? Any effort to play nice with the right will be met with treachery and outright deceit.
But please, continue to delude yourselves that if obama wins (and that’s a damn big IF) his charm will cause the repubs to all have a man crush on him and all the vitriol of the last two presidencies will disappear.
Now, about that bridge I’d like to sell ya…
It doesnt matter who the democrats nominate. The mighty right wing lie machine will gear up for the smears and come after them hammer and tong.
I wonder if Obama would try to get the FBI files on eveyone he considered a potential political enemy the way the Clintonistas did?
“The mighty right wing lie machine will gear up for the smears ”
gigglesnort!!
The Clintons were the king of backhoes when it came to digging dirt, and will be again if Bill gets back in the White House.
Obama’s kindergarten records anyone?
Writerdog, you posted;
“You can thank the same people that got us into Iraq for the deception.”
True, but the truth is not only our ‘intelligence’ but most of the worlds as well felt Saddam Hussein was a treat to the entire region. And, he had in fact proved that by his invasion of Kuwait and the harm he inflicted on his own people. Also, please remember, nearly all our legislative members agreed and supported, voted, to do something. I disagreed all along, and felt the Administration was almost campaigning to go in, but I am not privy to the intelligence either…and have no say.
Bill Clinton disgusts me. Though it’s a common disgrace he found himself in with Gennifer Flowers, Juanita Broaddrick, Kathleen Willey, Paula Jones, and Monica Lewinsky, WOW quite a number uh, for a man to lie to wife means he will lie to anyone. Bill Clinton did and will again. I have no respect for Hillary either because she seems to tolerate it. They seem a dishonest, though effective political team, but not a husband and wife, and that is very telling about their honesty and integrity. I feel they are self-serving in their desire for power and not sincere in helping the country.
But thanks for the conversation
“Saddam Hussein was a ‘treat’ to the entire region”
Obviously that was meant to read ‘threat’ to the entire region, not ‘treat’. He was quite a ‘treat’ though I guess you could say sarcastically.
First of all, Krugman is right to a certain extent, but, the reality is bigger than that.
The conservative coalition that took over the Republican Party, built by paleo-cons Richard Vigurie and Howard Phillips, was built on nastiness. People like the extremely odious Phyllis Schlafley joined up with people like Jerry Falwell and (more behind the scenes at that time) Pat Robertson and said, “this is what we are against”. They got groups with different agendas to each accept each other’s agenda by creating a straw man liberal and defining conservative as someone who opposes a liberal. Since patriotism does run high in some right wing circles (as well as authoritarianism), liberals were also defined as unpatriotic.
This was a movement that was built on attack, and it has worked for them. However, this tendancy to attack, never compromise, and to smear and destroy their opposition is also their greatest weakness. When they get in power (especially the Christian Right, note the capital letters), they push and overreach. The slime in Colorado (can you tell I REALLY don’t like these people?) James Dobson has given voice to his frustration about the failure of the Republicans to fulfill their “promises to Christians”. Why? Two reasons. One, some of the other members of the coalition (including some of the more pragmatic within the Christian Right, such as that old operative Ralph Reed) no that the full agenda of people like James Dobson is a loser. The other reason? When a member of the Christian Right gets into a position of power and tries to really force what he or she wants into the law of the land, they turn off enough people that they lose, and lose big. Don’t believe me? Ask Fob James in Alabama or Phill Kline here. Well, on second thought, don’t, because by definition they’re not bright enough to see it.
We have a couple of posters here who seem to want blood from the Republican party, and who seem to think that those who do not express that vengefulness, or who talk about “working together” in bi-partisanship, are going to get walked over.
I think that’s the wrong picture. The truth is a little more complicated than that, but maybe not that complicated.
Bill Clinton survived 8 years of right wing attacks. At first, the attacks set him back on his heels (the 1994 elections and the Republican “Contract with America”). Part of it was the early attacks worked (socialized medicine! socialized medicine! sqawk!). Another part of it was, the Clinton Administration, as the first Democratic administration after a dozen years, came on strong, particularly on states. That heavy handedness turned a lot of people off.
The secret behind why Clinton was successful, however, ultimately came down to this. He held strong against the Republicans in congress on some issues, compromised on others. Scandal after scandal was brought up against him by the right wing media and some of those scandals were also transmitted by the capitalist media (which, by the way, is not an epithet, it simply means that media reports what gets them bigger audiences, and scandal sells). But, Clinton didn’t take the bait. He did his job and the more frustrated and shrill the right wing got, the better he looked in contrast. The impeachment was a joke. The public saw it for what it was, petty.
It doesn’t mean that you just stand their and take it. But, the reality is, different people can engage in different strategies. The Swift Boat attacks worked not only because Kerry just stood their and took them, they worked because there was a whole slew of Viet Nam veterans who were still bitter at him over his testimony, and were more than willing to believe anything said about the man. You have “Lurch” standing aloof, but even if he had responded directly to the attacks (which he eventually did) it wouldn’t have done him much good. Because, here is the ugly truth. Kerry isn’t very likable. Kerry’s immediate response should have been to have those men who he served with, who stood up with him on the platform at the Democratic convention, film ads and simply tell the truth. “I was with him, I was there, this is what I saw, and none of the Swift Boat veterans for truth were anywhere in the vicinity when this went down” (I guess one was, but he was around the corner).
But, the right wing machine can’t simply do this to anyone. Because here is the other truth of the matter. People do like Barack Obama. When slime is fabricated about him, he can do what Kerry probably could not have. He can simply chuckle and say “see how they are?”. Or, he can act genuinely offended and hit back. In case you’ve missed it folks, this has become a nasty primary on the Democratic side, and Barack Obama has held his own. I don’t think Hillary Clinton is seen as being as likable as Obama, so she will have to hit back harder.
In the end, the point is this. The right wing will probably still be nasty. They will fight bi-partisanship. But, that strategy can be very, very damaging when it is used against an opponent who is seen as both trying to be bi-partisan but standing strong on what’s important. The right wing loses the most when they push the hardest. Bush Lite said after the 2004 election that he had political capital and he intended to spend it. Many of the other right wing jackasses who won thought the same thing.
And look what happened. In fact, I recall some Republican strategists seeing a real danger in that attitude.
This year, the electorate is impatient with partisan nastiness. The person who promises bi-partisanship doesn’t have to deliver (and he or she can’t if the other side won’t play), but will still come out a winner if it is apparent that he/she is trying to deliver on the promise.
Bipartisanship – That’s how most debates start early in the season – historically, they never end up that way.
KFG –
You must be referring to that “vast right wing conspiracy” I hear tell of . . .
LMAO – and I join Heckler in his “gigglesnort.” NO ONE gears up to throw dirt like the Clinton machine.
Conspiracy buffs are such fun.
—–
The Clintons are scary because of their joint Messiah complex: They believe the world needs saving and ONLY THEY can save it. The corollary- Hillary believes she is entitled to the Presidency, she’s EARNED it! Why else would she stay tied to the serial philanderer?
BTW – I still haven’t seen anything that remotely resembles “35 years of experience.”
The stains are there to prove it!
Geesh, y’all are slow, ain’t ya? Billy stains a dress, Rudi Jillie Annie wears them. So what????
Go ahead and pull the presidential Arkansas land scandal. Been done before. Ya have to go back about 150 years, but he ain’t the first pres to do it. In Arkansas again. Does that say more about Billy, or about Arkies?
Like Santayana (George, not Carlos) says, “those who don’t study history…”
GMC, you must have been napping. Here’s the vast experience record of Hillary Clinton:
http://www.baltimoresun2.com/talk/showthread.php?t=127143
Default Hillary Rodham Clinton: An Analysis Worth Reading
_____
“I thought she was the most gifted person of our generation.” Bill Clinton
An Analysis Worth Reading
By Dick Morris, former political advisor to President Bill Clinton
If you happen to see the Bill Clinton five minute TV ad for Hillary in which he introduces the commercial by saying that he wants to share some things we may not know about Hillary’s background . . .
beware . . .
As I was there for most of their presidency and know them better than just about anyone, I offer a few corrections;
Bill says: “In law school Hillary worked on legal services for the poor.”
The facts are: Hillary’s main extra-curricular activity in law school was helping the Black Panthers, on trial in Connecticut for torturing and killing a federal agent. She went to court every day as part of a law student monitoring committee trying to spot civil rights violations and develop grounds for appeal.
Bill says: “Hillary spent a year after graduation working on a children’s rights project for poor kids.”
The facts are: Hillary interned with Bob Truehaft, the head of the California Communist Party. She met Bob when he represented the Panthers and traveled all the way to San Francisco to take an internship with him.
Bill says: “Hillary could have written her own job ticket, but she turned down all the lucrative job offers.”
The facts are: She flunked the DC bar exam, yes, flunked, it is a matter of record, and only passed the Arkansas bar. She had no job offers in Arkansas, none, and only got hired by the University of Arkansas Law School at Fayetteville because Bill was already teaching there. She did not join the prestigious Rose Law Firm until Bill became Arkansas Attorney General and was made a partner only after he was elected Arkansas Governor.
Bill says: “President Carter appointed Hillary to the Legal Services Board of Directors and she became its chairman.”
The facts are: The appointment was in exchange for Bill’s support for Carter in his 1980 primary against Ted Kennedy. Hillary then became chairman in a coup in which she won a majority away from Carter’s choice to be chairman.
Bill says: “She served on the board of the Arkansas Children’s Hospital.”
The facts are: Yes she did. But her main board activity, not mentioned by Bill, was to sit on the Wal-mart board of directors, for a substantial fee. She was silent about their labor and health care practices.
Bill says: “Hillary didn’t succeed at getting health care for all Americans in 1994 but she kept working at it and helped to
create the Children’s Health Insurance Program (CHIP) that provides five million children with health insurance.”
The facts are: Hillary had nothing to do with creating CHIP. It was included in the budget deal between Clinton and Republican Majority Leader Senator Trent Lott. I know; I helped to negotiate the deal. The money came half from the budget deal and half from the Attorney Generals’ tobacco settlement. Hillary had nothing to do with either source of funds.
Bill says: “Hillary was the face of America all over the world.”
The facts are: Her visits were part of a program to get her out of town so that Bill would not appear weak by feeding stories that Hillary was running the White House. Her visits abroad were entirely touristic and symbolic and there was no substantive diplomacy on any of them.
Bill says: “Hillary was an excellent Senator who kept fighting for children’s and women’s issues.”
The facts are: Other than totally meaningless legislation like changing the names on courthouses and post offices, she has passed only four substantive pieces of legislation. One set up a national park in Puerto Rico. A second provided respite care for family members helping their relatives through Alzheimer’s or other conditions. And two were routine bills to aid 911 victims and responders which were sponsored by the entire NY delegation. Presently she is trying to have the US memorialize the Woodstock fiasco of 40 years ago.
BTW – I still haven’t seen anything that remotely resembles “35 years of experience.”
True GMC, Hillary Clinton only has 1.5 years seniority on Obama in the Senate.
The rest of her experience is as First Lady and scummy lawyer duties. Oops! Forgot I was tallking to a lawyer. :)
Speaking of slow….
Just read Mallard Fillmore. I predict on the 8th or 9th of Feb. his comic will be about the tax rebate. You really gotta be slow to take two weeks to come up with a lame excuse for a two page comic.
Saddam a “threat’ to the entire region” – yea, especially with the US providin him with weapons and support.
ksagnostic –
That’s a very telling piece. Nice work.
Ha! And questioning the definition of “if”. What a joke for a presidential leader.
Definition of torture
Definition of illegal wire taps
Definition of…
“I can’t recall” Hillary Clinton.
I would site the time, date and question, but, well, that would take way too much space.
Hillary always said “I can’t recall” when any of the accusations against her, or her husband, were being “vetted”.
Hillary is a crook. Hillary is disliked by large numbers of people who used to work for her, due to her temper and foul mouth.
Hillary had FBI files on her enemies.
Hillary lied about the Rose Law Firm billing records.
Hillary was deeply involved in White Water, Castle Grand, and the failed Madison Guarantee Savings and Loan.
The Clinton land and real estate deals were a scam. There is no record of them making any payments on realestate that they later took losses, against. Said “loan” was held by a lending firm that went under.
I could go on and on.
The point is that the target presented, by the Clinton’s is HUGE.
The biggest problem presented to the “right” is that it is very difficult to focus on just one falsehood or shady deal. Also, the deals are a bit complicated. Unfortunately, this is why the impeachement of Bill focused on Monica. Not due to “sex” per se, but due to evidence and the clear fact that Bill lied under oath.
Memo to Obama re: bipartisanship:
Trust – but verify.
“I thought she was the most gifted person of our generation.” Bill Clinton
– flunked the DC bar exam. Ooops.
Dick Morris.
There’s an honest man.
“Morris went on to become Campaign manager of Bill Clinton’s successful 1996 bid for re-election to the office of President of the United States. His tenure on that campaign was cut short two months before the election, when it was revealed that he had allowed a prostitute, Sherry Rowlands, to listen in on conversations with the President.”
From Wiki, but I remember the scandal well.
And of course, Morris, being a man owned up to his own stupidity and did not blame the Clintons for cutting him loose.
Well, uhm, then again.
My only advise to the democrats?
Charlie Brown. Lucy. Football. Dont do it.
I guess if you dont mind landing flat on your back, again, knock yerself out.
BTW, while yer down on the ground? Say hello to pelosi and reid. They believed Lucy too.
Another “glowing endorsement” for the Clintons:
http://biz.yahoo.com/nytimes/080131/1194742375200.html?.v=7
(The guy sells Uranium)
Ks,
Dick Morris may not be the nicest guy on Earth (name any successful person in politics today who is), but Dick’s statements in that article posted above are factual.
Discredit Dick all you want, but you can’t refute the facts.
Didn’t Clinton come into office with a past of escapades, so he was pretty easy pickings, especially when the long extinct / meaningless “Contract with America” took over Congress — between that and Hillary’s embarrassment with developing an acceptable Health program, they never had a chance.
Seems right now the only thing that they may scandalize Barak with is the Rezko business, find some uncertain connection to him and the Daley machine. Gut feeling says the Democrats are gonna have a majority in both houses …. so may it be a moot issue?
I don’t see much hope for McCain. He is running an the agenda of he’s as conservative as Reagan. but a renegade, that makes no sense, his history of inaction on the immigration issue in 25 years pretty much should seal his fate.
Romney with Limbaugh and others help might make it close in the general, but issues of flip flopping for political expediency, some actions as governor that border on liberal …..will haunt him and are his scabs to pick on ……
Have a very uneasy feeling about Obama as President, there are more than a few groups with individuals mad enough to have him in their gun sights already (secret service since almost day 1 of his candidacy) —– hope he picks a competent VP ……
“Dick Morris may not be the nicest guy on Earth (name any successful person in politics today who is), but Dick’s statements in that article posted above are factual.”
Really? What makes this factual?
“Bill says: ‘Hillary didn’t succeed at getting health care for all Americans in 1994 but she kept working at it and helped to
create the Children’s Health Insurance Program (CHIP) that provides five million children with health insurance.’
“The facts are: Hillary had nothing to do with creating CHIP. It was included in the budget deal between Clinton and Republican Majority Leader Senator Trent Lott. I know; I helped to negotiate the deal. The money came half from the budget deal and half from the Attorney Generals’ tobacco settlement. Hillary had nothing to do with either source of funds.”
It was more than just funds, it was how the program was designed. It is pretty well known that Morris and H. Clinton despised one another (she was one of the first in the Clinton campaign to publically call to cut Morris loose). I myself have no idea how much H. Clinton had to do with CHIP (I do not find Bill Clinton completely credible myself), but I sure as hell notice how Morris is parsing what he is saying (e.g., focusing on the funding for the program).
Dick Morris is a creep, and he is a nasty political operative, and he was for sale to the highest bidder in spite of coming from the right.
For example:
“Bill says: ‘Hillary was the face of America all over the world.’
“The facts are: Her visits were part of a program to get her out of town so that Bill would not appear weak by feeding stories that Hillary was running the White House. Her visits abroad were entirely touristic and symbolic and there was no substantive diplomacy on any of them.”
OK, here is Morris’ theme. Hillary didn’t do anything. Any perception to the contrary is Bill Clinton feeding “stories”, and yet, he then sent her away so that he would not appear weak by feeding stories that made him appear to be weak? Or is it that someone else sent Hillary away?
Why would they do that? Why would it be such a problem? Remember the dreaded co-presidency?
The only reason why Morris has credibility with you, Max, is because you are already virulenly anti-Clinton. She is incompetent and yet she is the primary threat for turning the US socialist?
Dude, you are soooo transparent.
“Have a very uneasy feeling about Obama as President, there are more than a few groups with individuals mad enough to have him in their gun sights already (secret service since almost day 1 of his candidacy) —– hope he picks a competent VP ……”
I keep seeing this in the media, that there are “threats to kill Obama” and not so veiled references such as larry’s. And no, Larry, I’m not accusing you of a thing, other than passing on the speculation.
But as far as I can tell, that’s all it is: speculation. I’ve seen no reports – NONE – of any attempts on Obama’s life, nor any conspiracies of same.
Now I’m not naive; I know that with a black candidate, there are those few loons out there. There are a few loons out there for ANY candidate or public figure, and certainly Obama should have full protection, as should all the candidates. But let’s not go out out of our way to make a self-fulfilling prophesy here, huh?
My earlier comment is being validated by the back and forth bickering here. Neither side has a lock on “sainthood”.
Neither side has a lock on “sainthood”.
agreed, Taz. Some of us are just man enough to admit it (even some women).
GMC – PaulTheCon has also raised the assasination threat. Seems to me there are many on the ‘right’ who want to fan those flames.
Meanwhile, we see the ’scum-calling’ against McCain coming, not from the left, but from the right! I am still a bit taken aback by the vitriol on KNSS last night.
At its peak, the Rovian coalition for Republic Party power barely eked out a majority for Shrub’s reelection in 2004.
Movement Cons will be loathe to vote for McCain who’s promised that American jobs won’t come back and illegal immigrants won’t go home. The Right Wing Slime Machine of Limbaugh, Hannity, Hewitt, et al hate McCain. Evangelicals, who want a King James Version of the Constitution of the United States will likely stay home on election day, just as they did in 1996 because they thought Bob Dole was “too liberal.” Bob Dole.
The only Democratic candidate that will reunify the Republic Party is the chance (as we’ve seen in this thread) to dredge up old Clinton “scandals,” real and imagined.
Arcane rules of Congress (especially in the Senate) have negated many Democratic efforts despite the 2006 majority. And always, the specter of a Shrub veto has stalled progress overseas and domestically.
So far during this primary season, Democrats have attracted hundreds of thousands more caucusers and ptimary voters than the Republic Party. A lot of that has to do with Obama attracting new voters to get involved. I know moderate Republic Party voters who are absolutely ashamed of the George WMD Bush’s adminsitration; ashamed that all this year’s Republic Party candidates (except for Paul) have been trying to out-Shrub Shrub. They have no stomach for reliving the last two terms, but hate the Clintons enough to, perhaps, vote against them again.
Obama isn’t advocating appeasement, he’s promoting attraction. There’s a difference.
Ben
I wasn’t listening last night. But if it was just after 7 when you were, who you were hearing is Michael Savage.
Among the talkers, he is the most honest.
He’s ALSO batsh@t fing crazy.
Anyone who thinks Obama is a good idea should spend a little time listening to talk radio. You’ll get an education.
The right cannot be worked with. And they are damn scared they are about to get walked over.
No mercy. No compromises. And NO Obama.
Yeah, scared JR, yep, uh huh…
“My only advise to the democrats?
“Charlie Brown. Lucy. Football. Dont do it.
“I guess if you dont mind landing flat on your back, again, knock yerself out.
“BTW, while yer down on the ground? Say hello to pelosi and reid. They believed Lucy too.”
Reid’s incompetent. I am not completely sure about Pelosi. However, I was pretty pessimistic about them even after the 2006 elections.
However, the fact of the matter is, a stubborn president has an enormous advantage over a narrowly divided congress, no matter who is in charge. And the Democratic “control” of the Senate is nothing more than smoke.
That being said, they should have played the gridlock card on a couple of issues.
BTW, ksfarmgrrl, what’s with this DLC stuff with regards to Barack Obama?
Notice who is all over the DLC’s website?
http://www.dlc.org/ndol_ka.cfm?kaid=137
As a politican and a Senator, Hillary has put the captial “P” in Pragmatic. Which is why I laugh at people who think she is the wicked witch of socialism. Or for that matter that she will be the lady knight who will put the hurt down on the right wing republicans once and for all.
JR –
Just a thought:
You might want to turn the talk radio off; it’s effecting your mind. You might want to step away from the ledge, too . . .
JR, etc – my hope is that with the nutcases savaging McCain the vast majority of the American people will wake up to the fact that drug-crazed Rush and the rest of them are just that – nutcases. Then who knows? Perhaps some sort of working coalition of Democrats and ‘McCain Republicans’ (derisively called RINOs by PaulTheCon et.al.) can come together.
However, as I noted above: Obama, keep your powder dry and open fire if they come after you!
Ben
PLEASE
I have not said that Americans had made death threats against Obama.
I have made the factual case that Sharia Law clearly says that the punishment for leaving the Moslem faith is death.
I do believe that Obama is a Christian, and was never made a decision, on his own, to be a Moslem.
With Moslems in his family tree, however, it does concern me that some radical might feel Obama was “BORN” into the Moslem faith.
This concern must be tempered by the obvious fact that radial Islam needs no excuse to kill an American President. They would want to do so no matter who we elect.
turn the talk radio off; it’s effecting your mind. You might want to step away from the ledge, too . .
It has that effect to me, too. Luckily, I can only take it in doses of 5 minutes or less.
Paul – I fear the Tim McVeigh types – and the various “Christian Identity” groups. I seem to recall a still-existing terrorist group who supported and sheltered the Olympic bomber in the hills in the Southeast.
I usually listen to KNSS in the mornings for their news/weather/sports. Still had it tuned when I got in the car about ‘7ish’
Ben
McCain DOES have a habit of antagonizing his opponents, needlessly.
I think it comes from the psychology of his POW experience. McCain racks up small “moral victories” by doing things that show “identity” and resist brain washing and mind control.
Problem is, the conservative wing of the party is not trying to “conrol” McCain, as were his Communist prison guards. We just think that Mr. McCain needs to “WALK” the “straight talk” Talk.
When asked a question, McCain acts like he is being interrogated, all over again.
He does not do real well, answering questions in public.
Much of what is going on right now is, obvious. We are attempting to get McCain on record, NOW, so he can not claim, later, that he has not promised Conservatives that he IS a Conservative.
I think the Obama assassination fears come from a long-standing urban legend in the black community that Martin Luther King was assassinated by a conspiracy that wanted to silence a black leader who had the potential to be president of the U.S.
It is, of course, impossible to prove a negative. But, I believe this is some of the source for the Obama anxieties.
Even members of MLK’s family did not think that James Earl Ray was right guy, IIRC.
Yea Paul – but do your talkers need to call him ’scum’ in the process?
Ben
There are Democrats who have been rather unkind to Obama.
There are Democrats who have been rather unkind, towards Hillary.
McCain is not “scum” — he just does not seem to understand who his natural friends should be.
My concern, about McCain, apart from issues, is that I think the PRESS is Lucy, ready to pull the football from McCain.
The Press love affair with McCain will end. How will McCain hold up, emotionally, when that happens?
And not taking Ben Ladin out when it opportunity was presented to him with the results of that. Easy to see where his priorities were. Anytime the country’s military finds their Commander in Chief disgusting there’s a really problem with the guy as President.
ROFL
“I think it comes from the psychology of his POW experience. McCain racks up small “moral victories” by doing things that show “identity” and resist brain washing and mind control.
“Problem is, the conservative wing of the party is not trying to “conrol” McCain, as were his Communist prison guards. We just think that Mr. McCain needs to “WALK” the “straight talk” Talk.”
So speaks the pop psychologist.
Econ, McCain is a long time Senator. Most Senators become nuanced as they spend time in the Senate. The best ones, primarily conservative or liberal, have the ability to take the long view, and not give up their ability to listen and analyze according to the knee jerk positions of their political viewpoint.
There is a reason why I call Inhofe an “idiot”. It is because he so predictable. He is a perfect “dittohead”. He is as predictable as conditioned flatworm.
The idea that McCain’s impatience with the movement coalition conservatives that so savaged him in 2000 is absurd. He had plenty of reason to be pissed off by movement coalition conservatives simply because of what was done to him.
But then, aren’t you the…person (I am really restraining myself here) who advanced the claim that McCain was responsible for the push polling in South Carolina in 2000?
Paul – ’scum’ was not my word – I specifically referred to KNSS talk radio.
I haven’t heard any ‘left’ talkers calling Hillary, Obama – or McCain – scum.
“movement coalition conservatives that so savaged him in 2000″
kaganostic – didn’t you know? That never happened. McCain made it all up.
Or at least so suggests Econ
“The best ones, primarily conservative or liberal, have the ability to take the long view, and not give up their ability to listen and analyze according to the knee jerk positions of their political viewpoint.”
should be
“The best ones, primarily conservative or liberal, have the ability to take the long view, and not give up their ability to listen and analyze an issue instead of blindly responding according to the knee jerk positions of their political viewpoint.
“The idea that McCain’s impatience with the movement coalition conservatives that so savaged him in 2000 is absurd.”
should be
“The idea that McCain’s impatience with the movement coalition conservatives that so savaged him in 2000 was due to his experiences as a POW is absurd.
“kaganostic – didn’t you know? That never happened. McCain made it all up.
“Or at least so suggests Econ”
Yeah, Ben, conservatives just want “straight talk” from McCain. Starting with the admission that he masterminded the push poll calls.
Conservatives may also want to know where McCain has Elvis hidden.
Ben –
I, too, would have to hold my nose for McCain. His blatent attack on the first amendment, McCain-Fiengold, is enough to disqualify him, if there was a viable alternative. But the alternatives seem to be dropping away, unfortunately, though we’ll see if Romney can gain any traction in the insanity that is “Super Tuesday.”
It is interesting to read the writings of those who hold themselves out as the self-proclaimed defenders of the “Conservative” movement as to Senator McCain. (The following is my opinion, solely my opinion, and nothing else.) Reading this stuff makes me think that it has occurred to them that their grip on the controls is about to be taken away as the population moves past where they are on many of the social issues which are held to be most important, and they see Sen. McCain, who appears to be at this point the most viable Presidential candidate for the GOP, the party that has been their haven for some twenty years, as the most visible and immediate threat to their continued hegemony. Thus, should Sen. McCain win the nomination (a probability that seems to increase with each round of primaries) without their help, they have become marginalized, and they cannot stand this. Using the word “liberal” as a pejorative against him is the latest attempt to try to retain their position as controlling the GOP.
“I think it comes from the psychology of his POW experience. McCain racks up small ‘moral victories’ by doing things that show ‘identity’ and resist brain washing and mind control.”
Didn’t Rove, et al. try to say that McCain was mentally ill due to his POW experience in the 2000 election. This is what I like about far-right nuts, i.e. their insistence of “if something worked once, it will work again”. Sorry, such crap just discredits you further.
Well said VT. To which I would add a note. One of our very conservative posters claimed “the conservative wing of the party is not trying to “conrol” McCain”. But as you so aptly note, “their grip on the controls is about to be taken away”. In other words, they DO want to control whoever is there and that will savagely attack anyone who resists. Thus the right-wing talk radio attacks “scum”
Ben and ksagnostic
McCain has NEVER brought forth a single witness who can verify his claim of nasty “Bush Push Polls” against him.
George W. Bush made all of his phone scripts public, and challenged McCain to do the same.
McCain NEVER released the telephone scripts that he was using.
It isnt true. Now, I can believe that McCain had a supporter that told him it happened. However, it was hearsay, was not authorized by Bush, if it did happen, and it was not the reason that McCain lost to Bush.
GMC – while you and I differ on that issue I can respect your position. Your ‘beef’ with McCain is issue; not person. That makes good sense.
To overcome the Bush legacy, America desperately needs a truly great President. Unfortunately, what few truly great people we have left in this country aren’t about to get involved in the bloodbath we call politics. We have certainly seen to that! So we’re stuck deciding who’s the greatest of the mediocre with what amounts to a WWF wrestling match- the one who extracts the most blood from his opponent (by any means necessary) wins, and the people are entertained for a while before they have to face reality again. That’s politics!
Hehehehehehehehehheheh!
Paulie, I just LOVE how you never let truth or reality sway your opinions!
Logic called. It’s tired of being tortured….
VT,
You could equally be describing those who in the thread intro are reticent to concede that Obama’s “lets play nice act” will be able to hold a candle to the Republican attack machine. If Obama gets elected and he does not fight tooth and nail for liberal democratic principles and actually manages to bring peace and civility to Washington through making compromises, how mad will the Left wing democrats be at losing control of their own party?
The extremists on the GOP side will not be thrilled with a McCain nomination any more than the hard core Liberals on the Dem side who are wanting more grit then that which Obama seems to be proffering.
KFG and Ben and the rest of you:
SHOW ME THE EVIDENCE:
Where in the world did McCain ever prove his accusations about “push polls”?
When did he ever bring forward a single witness?
I am willing to believe that McCain did not invent these charges out of thin air. He probablyu had a supporter who swore it happened. It didnt, not in any organized fashion. If it did happen, Bush was not behind it.
?
This “McCain is a nut” is outlandish and atrocious, Paul, and you should be ashamed of yourself for pushing that. McCain was a POW as a result of serving his country. And, to make that a case that he is not interpersonally fit to be president – is just flat disgusting. I don’t know how you look at yourself in the mirror each day.
Mark my words, the swift boats are coming…
VT
George H.W. Bush was not a conservative, prior to Ronald Reagan putting him on the ticket.
Bob Dole made at least as many mistakes as McCain, yet Dole knew he had to make peace with conservatives and he did.
This is not some major shift in the electorate. There was no clear conservative running, to begin with. Even Thompson voted for McCain Feingold.
Also, there are more former New Yorkers living in Florida than McCain’s margin, in Florida.
Furthermore, McCain will appoint a conservative, as a running mate, if McCain really wants to win.
Who will that be?
How old is McCain, again?
—–
Liberals in general:
You can not have it both ways.
Liberals try to claim that conservatives are sheep, blindly lead by our “leaders” without thought or debate.
Then, a true primary emerges, and you say we are “falling apart” because we do, actually, debate?
Steven
Where did I say that “McCain is a nut”???
Show me the quote?
Are you trying to say that McCain emerged from the Hanoi Hilton the same as when he went in?
YOU are dishonest, placing words in my mouth that I never said.
RFL?
“how mad will the Left wing democrats be at losing control of their own party?”
Ok, now I’M rolling on the floor, laughing my ass off. Only an uber conservative would think the “left wing democrats” have BEEN in control of the party.
hee hee hee. hehehehehheeheh! Damn (wiping tears) now THAT’s a good one!
There was no clear conservative running
Got that one wrong scooter. You know who he is. Everyone knows who the only Conservative running is. Problem is, the GOP isn’t conservative anymore. Slipped to the left on big government and control. Shame, that. But since Paul is a true conservative and not a knee jerk corporate owned shill, the party shuns him.
GOP, republican? They are dirty words anymore.
Ron Paul was in charge of a racist newsletter.
There is nothing conservative about racism.
A strong national defense is part of the coservative tradition.
Ron Paul fails on that point.
ksfarmgrrl,
Left wing democrats WISH they are in control of their party.
Nice try RFL, but that’s not what you said. Remember?
““how mad will the Left wing democrats be at losing control of their own party?”
One cant LOSE control if one is NOT already in control.
No cigar for you today…
The racist thing has been debunked by the PRESIDENT of the NAACP. Your continued slander shows your ignorance and allegiance to the polluted GOP. Atta girl econ.
A strong national defense? We couldn’t defend ourselves from the Canuks right now if they invaded. Wiffed on that one too scooter.
But by having 100% of our military within our borders, yep, weak national defense. Are you truly this thick Econ? Has the GOP so brain washed you?
Obama has not paid his dues politically.
If he had, he wouldn’t be pitching this kumbya crap. He’d know better.
That is unless it’s all an act and he’s REALLY a Republican at heart…
But let’s be fair and give him a chance. He can be VP.
Let Senator Clinton slap the right around for eight years. THEN, when they are more…tractable, Obama can play nice with them.
Sol, Sol, Sol –
The newsletter is what it is. Either he wasn’t keeping tabs on what was written in his name, in which case he’s incompetent, or he was, in which he’s racist. Neither is a good thing.
I’ll give the NAA(L)CP the credit I usually give them – none.
Your continuing to ignore this is buring your head in the sand for a candidate who has some admittedly attractive ideas, in the abstract, but in practice is 1) unable to win, and even if by some stretch he won, would be 2) unable to govern. The world will simply not revert to the last century and accomodate Mr. Paul (as nice as, in theory, that might be, in some ways).
Yeah JR. They think the repubs will go easier on obama because he’s so, well, inspriational.
I’d love to invite them to the real world. But they, and their candidate, dont have the stomach for it.
Obama may well win the nomination. And then? I suspect he will be like the dog who chased cars and then didnt know what to do when he actually caught one.
Well see how “nice” the republicans play with him if he is the nominee.
Lucy. Charlie Brown. Football. You know the drill.
Paul – on numerous occassions you and others on the right have demended that we PROVE that accusations against the Clintons are false. So, I want to see you PROVE these accusations false.
GMC,
I could give a rats butt about the news letters. Decades old debunked story. If that is the best you can do to defame Dr. Paul, then you win.
Dr. Paul has a better economic background than any other candidate in this race. Whom better to run the country in our current economic struggle. To say otherwise precludes ignorance of the current situation, what got us here, and how further tampering will only add velocity to the down turn.
Ability to govern will come through his 10 terms of flawless voting records. He will not pass an unbalanced budget. He will not raise taxes. He will eliminate the fat from the government.
But as you claim to be a Republican, I can see why you shy away. Wouldn’t want to stand for any Conservative changes to the current situation.
Thanks KFG,
I did not mean that the extreme wings currently controls either party.
Most noticeably during any election, extremists on both sides are hoping that the candidate that best represents their wishes is elected and can accomplish exactly what they wished for. By voting for Hope that is personified by Obama, some left wing democrats are hoping that those changes will be left wing changes. When such changes are not acheived through Obama’s play nice act, then there will be dissapointment. So their “hopes” of controlling their party are dashed.
The same is true for the Republican party.
Can you please just discuss issues instead of rolling on the floor and playing with the “h” and “e” key?
I’ve seen no reports – NONE – of any attempts on Obama’s life, nor any conspiracies of same
Obama got SS protection earlier in the race because of death threats —-
….. and I don’t remember if Oswwald or
(the guy who shot MLK) called a news conference to let any one know to …… hey watch the news tonight ….. you’re idiots
Why would anyone want to vote in a Clinton?
NAFTA was initially pursued by corporate interest in the United States and Canada supportive of free trade, led by Canadian Prime Minister Brian Mulroney, U.S. President George H. W. Bush, and the Mexican President Carlos Salinas de Gortari. The three countries signed NAFTA in December 1992, subject to ratification by the legislatures of the three countries. There was considerable opposition in all three countries. In the United States, NAFTA was able to secure passage after Bill Clinton made its passage a major legislative priority in 1993. Since the agreement had been signed by Bush under his fast-track prerogative, Clinton did not alter the original agreement, but complemented it with the aforementioned NAAEC and NAALC. After intense political debate and the negotiation of these side agreements, the U.S. House passed NAFTA on November 17, 1993, by 234-200 vote (132 Republicans and 102 Democrats voting in favor; 156 Democrats, 43 Republicans, and 1 independent against), and the U.S. Senate passed it on the last day of its 1993 session, Saturday, November 20, 1993, by 61-38 vote (34 Republicans and 27 Democrats voting in favor; 28 Democrats and 10 Republicans against, with 1 Democrat opponent not voting)
The Clintons are helping the Bushes usher in the stupid one world government that daddy Bush cooked up.
Aren’t you tired of the Bush / Clinton dynasty?
Do you still want to keep your job and your wages?
U.S. deindustrialization
It should be noted that an increase in domestic manufacturing output and a proportionally greater domestic investment in manufacturing does not necessarily mean an increase in domestic manufacturing jobs—it may simply reflect greater automation and higher productivity. Although the U.S. total civilian employment rate may have grown by almost 15 million in between 1993 and 2001, manufacturing jobs only increased by 476,000 between January 1, 1994 and January 1, 2001. Furthermore from 1994 to 2007, net manufacturing employment has declined by 3,654,000, and during this period several other free trade agreements have been concluded or expanded.
Aren’t you tired of the Bush / Clinton dynasty?
Do you still want to keep your job and your wages?
The original NAFTA legislation specified that Mexican and Canadian manufacturers adhere to enviornmental and workers’ rights standards. The Republic Party-dominated Congress stripped those provisions from the bill.
Thinking that half-a-loaf was better than none, and that future Congresses would reestablish environmental and workers’ rights standards into the agreemen (Canada was on board, anyway), President Clinton signed the bill.
That’s one reason why it’s truly ironic to hear Hillary advocates rail against Barrack Obama.
Plenty of posters in this forum have correctly observed that Bill Clinton was the best Republic Party president of the 20th Century. Clintonism — and the DLC — are rife with examples of expected reasonable compromise from what ultimately revealed itself to be unreasonable Bushism.
I fully understand liberal Democrats eagerness to go all Tom DeLay on conservatives’ asses; to punish them now that we have the numbers. But that’s fighting the last war.
We have the numbers. We have the will of the majority of the people. With a Democrat in the Oval Office, the last two years of veto threats will no longer exist!
As much as part of me really wants to go shove Newtie Gingrich’s nose in the s#it he created, that’s really not progress. As much as I think Dick Cheney deserves to hang from the same gallows that ended Saddam Hussein’s life, I’m not sure how that assures healthcare for Americans or improves schools or gets us out of the middle of the Iraqi Civil War.
Barrack Obama is attracting a new constituency of people who recognize we’re now in the majority. Obama’s opponents still have the underdog mindset.
Wiseman, not sure we can blame one political party for the loss of manufacturing in the US.
What many do not realize, is that with America moving from a Manufacturing based economy to a Service economy, we have weakened America and decreased our true wealth growing potential.
How’s that?
The Service economy, where people work in Retail, Gambling Casinos, Banking, and other service industries does NOT produce a product. Nothing is created. We simply exchange money from the hands of the buyers to the hands of the sellers of the service. We exchange money from one American’s pocket to the other. And these services cannot be exported as our labor rates are higher then overseas, so we can gain nothing from trade.
The Manufacturing economy produces a product, something of value that can be used and exchanged over and over again, and exported. Value is created. Wealth is created by workers who earn money and benefits.
The loss of American power and productivity is not immediately felt. It’s taken some time to be noticed. The trend away from manufacturing continues and things will only get worse. American jobs will continue to go overseas. America will become weaker as we become more dependent on other countries to Manufacture products for us, sending more US dollars overseas.
I’m so tired of looking at the place of manufacture of everything I buy being from somewhere other then the USA. I’m so tired of buying junk from China that breaks the instant you take it out of the package. And I’m so tired of ALL of our politicians who do nothing to make America stronger.
Which candidate today will work to create an environment that is favorable to business, to encouraging manufacturers to open new plants or to keep existing plants in the US?
Promises of new bigger Government with more Social Welfare programs will only suck more money from The People with higher taxes. Money that could have been used to invest in manufacturing companies who create products and provide jobs and benefits to people who work.
Which candidates will make America stronger? And which candidates will make America weaker and more dependent on Government?
Several really good posts here, particularly KsAgnostic’s first post and MonkeyHawk’s last post (up thread).
We don’t need to punish the right wing for what they’ve done, as much as they deserve it.
We need to UNDO what they’ve done–tax breaks for the rich, socialism for big drug companies and other huge multinationals, the war in Iraq, de-regulation.
You don’t get that by pitting gays against Christians and public schools against private schools, the old against the young, new immigrants against old, blacks against latinos.
You get it through leadership.
Max, you are correct that one cannot blame just one party for the loss of industrial jobs in the U.S. Both are to blame.
The decline in industrial jobs within the U.S. has been ongoing for most of my adult life. It may well have accelerated within the past ten years, but has been happening for at least 30 years, if not longer. I know its been longer; I recall some discussions about this when an undergraduate at KU, in one of my Business classes. The framework at the time was did it make long term sense to take advantage of lower labor costs in other countries at the risk of losing consumers who could afford to buy the products. It was the opinion of the class at the time that it didn’t make sense in the long term. Of course, back then, the long term was >10 years, not the next quarter.
Max writes–
“The Manufacturing economy produces a product, something of value that can be used and exchanged over and over again, and exported. Value is created. Wealth is created by workers who earn money and benefits.
“The loss of American power and productivity is not immediately felt. It’s taken some time to be noticed. The trend away from manufacturing continues and things will only get worse. American jobs will continue to go overseas. America will become weaker as we become more dependent on other countries to Manufacture products for us, sending more US dollars overseas.”
Dude, you are entirely correct. That’s what’s happening NOW under a 8 years of an All Republic Congress and 7 years of a Republic President.
How can you think things will change when you want more of the same?
Obviously, what the US needs is gov’t incentives to keep jobs here, instead of socializing costs to move jobs overseas, which is what we have now.
Instead of hindering huge corporations from moving overseas, the Republics use our tax money to help them do it . . .
It’s the quickest way for BushCo. to help his “base–the haves, and the have mores.”
http://www.reason.com/news/show/124116.html
David Cay Johnston is a Pulitzer-winning New York Times reporter. His latest book, just out this week, is called Free Lunch: How The Wealthiest Americans Enrich Themselves At Government Expense (and Stick you With the Bill). It’s valuable from a small government perspective because of its detailed stories of government attempts to manipulate or adjust the market, leading—predictably, a libertarian might say—to benefits for the well-off and well-connected rather than the disadvantaged or the masses.
Free Lunch is full of sharp, heavily reported takedowns on eminent domain, expensive special favors for sports teams, legislative deals that put taxpayers on the hook for private train company’s crimes and errors, giveaways from small towns to attract big-box stores, and how heavily government-managed markets in areas such as power and health care can enrich some at everyone’s expense.
reason: What is the theme of Free Lunch, and what made you write it?
David Cay Johnston: Ronald Reagan famously asked Americans if we were better off than we were four year ago; Americans said “no” and elected him. This empowered a great change, supposedly, in government. It was supposed to lead to less government, more market solutions, and lower taxes.
What I’m asking in Free Lunch is: Are you better off than you were a generation ago when Reagan was elected? Government is just as big, there are vastly more regulations, and as I show, we have many new rules and regulations that handcuff the invisible hand of the market and instead, in subtle, sometimes hidden, ways, extract money from the pockets of the many and funnel it to the politically connected few. It’s the very thing that Adam Smith said would ruin the benefits of markets.
It’s not surprising Bush would praise a company like Cabela’s though. His own fortune, as I show from the public record and from interviewing his friends and from his own tax returns, derives from a subsidy that was derived from a tax increase! There’s an irony—George Bush got rich from a tax increase [a sales tax passed by voters in Arlington, TX] that was funneled into his pocket inefficiently. The people who had to pay the tax got no benefit—most of them were not baseball fans—from this subsidy to build a stadium for the TX Rangers [baseball team Bush owned].
“Are you trying to say that McCain emerged from the Hanoi Hilton the same as when he went in?
“YOU are dishonest, placing words in my mouth that I never said.”
You know full well that you implied he was “nuts”. That’s how people who do smear campaigns work – they imply things.
Also, people can go through horrible experiences and not be permanently damaged – as you implied once again.
You are, far and away, the most dishonest poster here. And, you are one huge hypocryte. Lastly, you are one huge waste of time.
Cap who owns that stadium? Did he take it with him when he sold the team? Did he ’sell’ it to the new owners? Do other cities build stadiums for their pro teams?
When you were interviewing his friends you should have got the answers to these questions. By the way who were the friends you interviewed. Did you tell upthread? If so I missed it.
Total Manufacturing employment really has not suffered badly at all.
In fact, it has gone up somewhat, depending on what you use as a “base year”.
Put another way: The PERCENTAGE of total employment, in manufacturing has decreased, while the total number, employed by manufacturing, has increased. (Again, depending on the base year).
http://www.pnreap.org/PNREAP.Report#3
I am using KANSAS data, from WSU.
However, this same WSU webpage can be used for nationwide trend analysis.
Steve
You were being dishonest.
I think John McCain is a remarkable man.
I am trying to understand him, thats all.
I disagree with McCain on many issues, and I want to forgive him for some of what he has done.
Forgiveness, for me, requires some undestanding of the man.
I disagree with him.
I want, at the same time, to understand what makes him tick.
That is NOT the same as calling him “crazy” and you know it.
I have said that Hillary is a crook, is hot tempered, is motivated by greed and power, can not be trusted and that she treats her staff like dirt.
I never called her “crazy” either.
I am quite capable of using the correct words, precise words.
Again, you are being dishonest and your smear, of me, did not work.
Capn
How did the Clintons make their millions?
HUH?
Cattle Futures.
China.
Whitewater
Madison Guarantee S and L
Castle Grande
Ksgrm–
It’s a quote from a book by David Cay Johnston.
Bush raised taxes on the many, bought a share of the arena, sold his share for about 15 million dollars which the tax-payer funding assured.
Nice.
This was well-known before the 2000 election, but feeding at the public trough like this is so common and wide-spread, the media didn’t even report on it.
Econ–
Do you hear me defending the f***ing Clintoons’?
No?
Okay, then, shut up.
And btw, the Clinton’s LOST money on Whitewater.
They’re so inept, they can’t even cheat well.
WSU website would not come up, sorry, find it this way:
http://www.pnreap.org/United_States/employment-ca25n.php
Capn
It CAN be illegal to “lose money” you never invested in the first place.
That is what the Clintons did:
They took a loss they were not entitled to take!
Econ that’s correct. It’s the percentage that is important here, given a natural presumption that if the industrial jobs were not “out sourced off shore” the same would have occurred here, thereby increasing the percentage and further increasing the gross number.
Pleefer Posted January 31, 2008 at 9:31 am | Permalink
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran-Contra_Affair
Here is a “founded” charge against Clinton. It seems that if you help (or at least look the other way) to run dope from your state, you can become a President. Just Google “Mena Arkansas+ Drugs+ Clinton”, it’s all over the place.
===========================================
Pleefer… 99.99% of that link has NOTHING to do with Clinton, or anythhing ABOUT Clinton…
How Shameless of you to use such a thing!! ALSO, no charges ere made against Clinton in that .01% of that link!! NO CHARGES!! Compare that to the number of convictions of Reagan/Bush people in other instances… which, BTW, had NO Connection to Clinton!! LOL Ya just cant FIX stupid!!
Econ, get off your merry-go-round… The Clintons, neither of them, were indicted, tried, or convicted for their loss in Whitewater… They were not CHARGED with losing money they werent entitled to LOSE…
Why??? Because they LOST their investment!!
Duh…. What a dumb thing to suggest, just because you HATE the Clintons!!
Even though they were never Charged, or Indicted on anything with Whitewater, you STILL drag it out of the closet… How Disingenious of you and all your kind!!
Hypocrisy thy name is ECON and Co.
Ya just cant FIX stupid!!
Ahhhwwww chas, don’t give up brother. There is hope for you yet. Maybe something under HillaryCare!
Econ, its a good thing I am not convinced your name is Paul Rosell… Because IF I ever found out you had ANY of my insurance policies, I would change them SO FAST, it would make your head swim!! I could not in good faith have my insurance policies with such a numb skull as you prove to be here DAILY!!
Hey Hillary Care is better than anything I have ever seen YOU post here, Sol!! I guess if you cant come up with anything BETTER, you just keep taking pot shots at a program that CAN and WILL be of the most benefit for the most people!! LOL You keep on, now, dude!!
You keep trying hard enough, you might find one of your LIES about Hillary is true!!
Chas now lies can be true. That is amazing. Sol keeps making the same mistake I used to make.
WOW — Hannity is SO afraid of McCain, and McCain running against Hillary, he is nearly in a meltdown!! He just called McCain the most liberal Senator in Washington!! yea, sure right!! Take a pill, Hannity… chill… you are just gonna make yourself SICK this way!!
Question for you chas, can you differentiate between the cost of living in Alabama vs. California? Exactly how does HillaryCare! accommodate that difference? You do understand that the cost of living will offset the annual income. That will have a direct dollar for dollar impact on the overall cost of HillaryCare! and or the benefits provided for by said plan.
KsGrm, I suggest you see a good Psychiatrist SOON… You have lost your capability to see Irony, Sarcasm, and Humor!!
Just go think about it for a while… You MIGHT get it if you think about long enough!!
I am truly sorry you have lost your humor, irony, and sarcasm… and replaced it for vitriolic hatred and ad hominem attacks, as per your usual CRAP posted here…
SOL — you just set about waffting in the wind AGAIN… I just said, specifically, you cant post here anything BETTER, so you keep on attacking what Hillary has already proposed… NOW, you want to talk about the difference between Alabama and California!!
Shoot, you dont have to go that far-fetched… Why not just compare YOUR income, with the income of some poor soul living in Inner City Detroit…. See, you dont have to take it very far from your own front door!!
Now, put up something on here that is better than what Hillary has proposed, or just stop whining!! She at least, has a PLAN!!
Chas.
Posted January 31, 2008 at 4:19 pm | Permalink
uhhhm. yeeaah. didn’t think so. Keep shillin though chas.
HillaryCare blows chunks.
And BTW chas, I already have. Let the states provide for their own. If you’d like to debate the principles and reality of both, I’d love to, but I think you better do some research on HillaryCare! as I see you really have no concept of the program.
“I am truly sorry you have lost your humor, irony, and sarcasm… and replaced it for vitriolic hatred and ad hominem attacks, as per your usual CRAP posted here…”
Chas someday I too might grow up to be just like you. But then only so many perfect people can walk on earth so I might not make it.
Re: Whitewater. As I recall many people got ripped off in that deal – INCLUDING THE CLINTONS! It seems that they got sucked into a crooked deal; not that they initiated such a deal.
Some years ago I was involved in a rather shady deal at Drexel Burnham Lambert (rememebr them?). I did recover some of my losses later in the class-action lawsuits. My question: Since I was ripped off by a crook does that make ME a crook?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drexel_Burnham_Lambert
I have three questions that never seemed to get answered
1) what defines the ‘basic coverage” all Americans are “entitled” to?
2) What does “affordable” health care mean?
3) If this is so great, why not neighbors take care of neighbors? In other words, at the lowest local level possible. Why not at the very least, make it a state program? WHy does it need to be Federal?
Sol — You really LIKE Ron Paul, and his economic plans… I have to assume that would include his Fair Tax plan, to wipe out the IRS altogether… and implement some sort of across the board Sales Tax… If I am wrong about that, please tell me…
IF I AM RIGHT… Here is my question for you and any others who keep hollering about the unfair amount of taxes paid by those fairly well off —
If this huge amount of folks (50%) that you all claim only pay 3% or 3.5% of the total income tax (because they have low income)
Dont you figure that those in the highest income brackets are going to pay a HUGE amount of sales tax?? I mean, those are the people who will have the most disposable income to spend… THEY buy the new cars… THEY buy the fir coats… THEY buy the high dollar entertainment packages… THEY pay huge amounts for transportation costs…
The LOW income folks, after paying for rent, or minimal house payments, and their utility bills, and their property taxes(IF they are buying their home), and all of those initial outputs of income… AFTER that, about all they have to spend is Grocery Money, and a little bit for what pills they might be able to afford…
Essentially, those in the LOWER income brackets will pay VERY little in Sales Tax, while all of the Wealthy will pay out a FORTUNE in Sales Tax, since they have the HIGH disposable income to buy THINGS…
How does that work for you, and to your benefit under the Fair Tax/Sales Tax program??
Monkey and Captain…
You STILL are not answering my questions about HOW obama is going to bring about these miracles. You just use vague, feel good words like “inspiration” and “leadership”.
Same words Bill Clinton used. And you both seem to think that didnt work out very well.
And STILL no one answers my question if it would have been ok for obama to invite the KKK to headline a fundraiser and preach their hate for thirty minutes at the end.
You cant explain how he will bring about these “changes” he promises, much like pelosi and reid promised “changes”. Just more cheerleading.
And when the Patriots want to win the super bowl, will they send in their best and most experienced players? Or the cheerleaders?
You all want to send the cheerleader up against the Giants line.
Good luck with that. Maybe they’ll just be too decent and polite to crush the cheerleaders?
Just like you all are crossing your fingers and “hoping” obama will turn the republican wolves into docile lambs.
If this is so great, why not neighbors take care of neighbors?
And how does that work in s poor neighborhood where nobody has the resources?
Well, I see you still have no Plan of your own to propose… So, I guess you have no idea how to make it work… I really was hoping to see what kind of plan you would propose… But I see NONE here…
I’m out. Don’t have time for chas to google hillarycare!
Chas, some of the most illogical uninformed posts are under your nic. And you have the audacity to call other posters stupid.
Pot, meet chas.
Case in point…
__________________________________________
[Ron Paul’s] fair tax plan
and implement some sort of across the board Sales Tax
______________________________________________
And still no answers on HillaryCare!
Go get em Chas. Blindly into the night goes he.
Well, I see you still have no Plan of your own to propose
Chas, good Lord man, read the thread !!!
“And how does that work in s poor neighborhood where nobody has the resources?”
So, it’s not really about the care, it’s about getting someone else to pay. Same old BS as ever.
Friggin local governments want the state to pay, the state wants the federal government to pay, the feds just steal your money and hand it over to whomever the lobbyists have paid off.
Same old crap. I want a …….(you fill in the blank) but I want someone else to pay for it.
Good golly, the world is coming to an end, kfg made a football analogy!
It’s here chas…
SolDevVB
Posted January 31, 2008 at 4:22 pm | Permalink
And my questions still haven;t been answered. Same oh, same oh
Hey, Grmmy… I’m not perfect… you’re not perfect… Not even JAMES/Regular is perfect (but dont tell him — he doesnt know that yet) —
One again, you miss my point…
# 1) You have just done (again) what you accuse me of doing nearly every day — jumping in on something you werent a part of… Doesnt bother ME any… But how does that make YOU feel??
# 2) I said it before… I will say it again… I put forth an irony/sarcastic/satirical statement about Sol doing nothing but lying about Hillary/Hillary Care/HillaryPeriod… And YOU go off half cocked and start in with your stupid, idiotic ad hominem attack on MY comment, which went WAY over your head!!
# 3) THEN, you come back with some stupid, assinine comment about being perfect!! All I said was a clear fact… You arent connecting on Irony/Humor/Sarcasm/Satire… Get that checked out… it can make people miserable!! Totally miserable!!
HOW do you propose the states handle their own, Sol, since the states would ultimately do something similar to what Hillary is proposing at the Fed. level??
Little John… I guess my answer to what you ask, is this — And it comes from nearly 30 years involvement in mission outreach programs –
We can do MUCH more working TOGETHER as a Nation, than we can do with each State doing its OWN thing to get health care to ALL the people… ALL the people…
HOW each State would do that, I dont have a “set in stone” idea … I just think it can be done cheaper, and more effectively at a Federal level, than at the State level…
Hope that helps a little!!
Gee, I wonder if the new obama ad featuring governor leadership is playing in ANY state but Kansas?
Maybe he could buy some airtime on A Daily Show?
hehehehehehhehehehehhehe.
Presuming that McCain is the Republican nominee, he should be able to win against Mrs. Clinton. Obama is another matter. He has the advantage of being a charismatic fresh face that would contrast with been around forever McCain. But he has an extremely liberal voting record that makes it tough for him to attract too many across the aisle.
It is great seeing the uh… debate between the Hillary and Obama factions.
I will say this: I have a very hard time understanding people who claim to have “good principles” and “deep-rooted foundations” who are SO AFRAID that somebody in East Jersey might just benefit from a few of their dollars, when that East Jersey person has little or nothing to spend on Health Care for themselves, or their children, or grandchildren —
That kind of “superior” mindset and attitude makes me almost nauseatingly sick!! And then SOME of those folks, though hardly ALL, but SOME of these folks go to Church on Sundays, and gladly put their “offerings” in the alms basins at their houses of worship; and walk out feeling that they have done their share!!
And then, the next day, they talk about all the poor suckers who dont have jobs; or decent housing; or medical care; and they talk as though those people WANT to live like that, or CHOOSE to live like that —
In reality, that is the farthest thing from the Truth that is out there… NOBODY who is homeless chooses to be Homeless… NOBODY who is sleeping under a bridge at 30 Below, is sleeping there by CHOICE!!
What does it take to open the eyes of people, so that they can SEE what has happened to these people??
There is no magic answer… But the more immediate answer is that these people need HELP… they need it NOW… not next week, or next month… And if it takes Federal Funds, or State Funds to do it; or if it takes four special offerings at Church to do it, then it should be DONE!! And with no questions asked…
THEN maybe we can get back to understanding what it means to be HUMAN again!!
OK — sermon over… Amen!
Chas—Chill out man. Now you seem to be accusing those who don;t want the Federal governement to transfer money from one corner of the uS to another as something less than what they proclaim,. Listen buddy, I will compare my service to yours any friggin day of the week. And I don;t want the federal goverment to be involved. What a waste, them sobs waste money every damned minute, and cannot possibly envision what is needed in the individual states. I deal with it often, in the Medicare rules, etc. Not only that, the sobs thorw money where it is politically expedient, not what is the most beneficial. What works in LA does not work in kansas, and vice versa. Let the states take care of their own. That was the principle we started with in this country, and a pretty damned good one. And there for sure there be some questions asked. When you reach into my pocket, you better have some answers. ANd yeah, there are people on the streeets because of the choices they make, every day. And yeah, there are people flipping hamburgers because of the choices that they made, and yeah, there are people cleaning hotel rooms because of the chices someone else made. That doesn;t mean I just open my pocketbook and let them take whatever they want.
So, please define Basic healthcare that is a ‘right’and what is ‘affordable” healtchare. I don;t need a sermon on generalities, I want a program on specifics.
Ben and Chas
Susan McDougal REFUSED to testify, in the Whitewater investigation.
Do you remember that?
Why? Obviously, she was defending the Clintons.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whitewater_scandal
You Clinton defenders are funny. Someone hides evidence, as Hillary did with the Rose Law firm records. You say that there “is no evidence”!
Rose Law Firm, where Hillary worked, dealth with Madison Guarantee Savings and Loan, which failed.
Rose Law Firm also was involved with Whitewater and Castle Grande.
Susan Dugal is found in contempt of court, for refusing to testify, in the matter, and you say there “are no witnesses” against the Clintons.
A great example, those Clintons, Lie under oath, get your friends to refuse to testify, even to the point of contempt citations, hide evidence, claim “I don’t recall” when questioned, and let the “statute of limitations” run out.
That is, frankly, what the Clintons did.
No, Ben, the Clintons were not innocent victims.
And, the Clintons, never once, were able to show that they had ever invested ANY of their own money, in order to qualify for the tax losses they received.
“And if it takes Federal Funds, or State Funds to do it; or if it takes four special offerings at Church to do it, then it should be DONE!! And with no questions asked…”
So start with the reverse. Take those four special offerings. Up those local taxes, then up the state taxes, and when they become unbearable, and still unable to take care of the problem, talk to the feds.
And why stop at the church? WHy not ask those of the unchurched to give. Why not ask those of the atheist persuasion to give? Why not?
Why not ask Soros to start and insurance company that nobody has to pay into, that will pay their medical bills? he has billions and is a compassionate liveral? How about the frickin movie stars and other celebrities that limit their charitable giving to showing up and smiling? Give the proceeds of one movie! FOr one year, live like the rest of us, and donate the rest Susan Sorandon. Yeah, right.
Hillary had a legal RETAINER from Madison Guarantee Savings and Loan, for $2000 per MONTH.
Nobody has shown any other lawyers involved in these shady land deals.
http://www.salon.com/06/features/whitewater.html
I am out of here once again. But sincerely, for all the rhetoric, I would like to hear the definition of “basic health care” that all Americans are entitled to, and the definition of “affordable health care” that all Americans should have. I think if we can ever quit talking in generalities, maybe we can start talking.
chas
those under bridges are mental cases. Very little that we can do for them.
Sure thing Econ… They arent like US, so just let em die, huh?? Real American thre, Econ… Ever hear of Emma Lazarus??
Well, dinner time here… Might see you all later… IF I get some other things done…
Chas
Blame the ACLU. That is the organization that is most responsible for making it impossible for anyone to institutionalize those who do not want help. Again, how on Earth is the mentally unstable person, living under a bridge, the fault of anyone? We can not, legally, force that person into any treatment center or institution, unless that person is obviously dangerous to others.
By the way, Emma Lazarus was one of the earliest “Zionists” — Catholic myself, but sympathetic to Zionism.
How is she relevant to this thread? Her work appears on the Statue of Liberty. Still, I do not get your point.
Chas, I again point out the cost of living differences between states. That alone makes pricing and costing a nightmare. What is the ceiling for those that would be covered? Is it different for each state since the cost of living can vary drastically?
Each state knows where the needs lie. They can best manage a deal through insurance companies or state government programs that best suits the needs of the people.
If you put this at the federal level, everyone gets the same regardless of specific needs.
To pay for it, first drop the federal income tax level. The states can tap into that additional income to fund the programs. Some taxes can be placed on tourism, lessening the burden on the state residents. With a state level program you can become creative and flexible. The federal plan, or hillarycare!, is brittle, blanket, and one size fits all.
You starting to understand it better chas?
And the blog melts down today
Nothing gold can stay
Only Clinton and Obama are left
for the left
Scandals and empty talk is all they bring
to beggars who are looking for a diamond ring
So devisive these two are
Even the Libs see they’ve gone too far
Sex and race
divide liberals’ space
Former Clinton fans now attack her with posts
even more so then talk show hosts
Clintons still play the same tune
saying how could you possibly vote for that coon
Nothing positive to offer about either one
no reasons to vote for anyone
PROVE IT PAUL! Just like you demand that we PROVE the Bush/Rove/Bob Jones attacks on McCain. Not innuendo PaulTheCon – PROOF! In a court of law!
Oh you poor RR’s! With McCain vs. Hillary, your only hope for your holy christian theocracy is a military coup, and after what Bush has done to screw the military, that’s not damned likely!
Ben
Nomatter who wins, on the Dem side, part of the reason that Hillary is having trouble, with the Democrats, is that she is dirty.
Everybody knows it.
SOL WRITES >>>
“I again point out the cost of living differences between states. That alone makes pricing and costing a nightmare. What is the ceiling for those that would be covered? Is it different for each state since the cost of living can vary drastically?”
AND >>>
“To pay for it, first drop the federal income tax level. The states can tap into that additional income to fund the programs. Some taxes can be placed on tourism, lessening the burden on the state residents. With a state level program you can become creative and flexible. The federal plan, or hillarycare!, is brittle, blanket, and one size fits all.”
C’mon Sol… Your difference between states is pure bogus… You can find differences WITHIN States… Like the cost differences between oh, say, Detroit, and somewhere way up in Upper Peninsula….
OR, Difference between ummm Wichita, and Wichita County(Way Out West – say, Boonies)…
You gotta do better than that…
However… your funding solution is most interesting… CUT Federal Taxes, to pick up some income at State Levels… Where STATES have to RAISE taxes, to cover your proposed programs… That didnt work well when Reagan was President, when people finally figured out what he did….
Now, if you put extra taxes on Tourism, then the States with higher TOURISM will be taking a larger responsibility than states with lower Tourism rates… Not so easy, eh?? You really expect states like Nevada, or Colorado, or Wisconsin, or the Ozark areas to be happy about picking up more of the tab than a state like, ohhh, Oklahoma – with Low tourism rates??
And how about those states that have NO STATE TAXES now?? You think THEY will like instituting Taxes on THEIR people??
See, THATS the kind of gobble-dee-gook you get wrapped up in when you break it down to State levels…
Now, sure there are different COL differences between states… but no more of a nightmare of COL differences between various cities IN the States — as I just pointed out…
So, I still see a Federal Plan as more solvable than State programs…
NOW, your turn… Back to that new, crazy tax plan your boy Ron Paul, and Gov. Huckabee keep spouting off about… How DO you plan to balance out a Federal SALES tax kind of a program?? That has been one of Ron Paul’s major platforms since he first ran for President on the Libertarian Ticket… And apparently, Huckabee acutally LIKES Neal Boortz’s Fair Tax plan, given he talks about it all the time!!
So, how you gonna make THAT one work out?? You know, so the upper income people arent paying so much MORE in Sales Tax, than the poorer, and underprivileged??
Your turn!!
Econ — You keep on saying Hillary is “dirty” but all you throw out are things that neither Hillary OR Bill were ever charged with, or indicted for, or more importantly, never convicted of!! But, Noooooooo Econ still says they are dirty!!
And your rationale for that is because Susan McDougal wouldnt testify against them?? Now, come on, if there is nothing to testify about… Then she shouldnt testify, even if it means a contempt of court charge!! And, since when can you be forced to testify about something that you have no knowledge of?? Hmmmm????
When you wish upon Obama
Doesn’t matter who’s yo mama
Clinton fans they do diminish
As the Dems head toward the finish
Obama is a charming fellow
And lulls them with a voice so mellow
Hillary is pulling hair
Like she did when Bill was there.
So as we watch the oh eight race
Who will end up in that place
If the White House’s not so white
Clintons go back home to fight.
How long have you had that obcession with Hillary, Outlander?? Obcessions can be dangerous to your over all health LOL
I dont see any Dems having apoplexy over Rep. candidates… Hmmmmm….
Obcessions?
Yep — must be… otherwise, why the blatantly RACIST song lyrics?? huh??
Earlier today, somebody expressed surprise that Obama has had Secret Service protection from the day he announced for Presidnet…
Ummm Pardon me… excuse me… ALL of those who announced their candidacy for President have had Secret Service protection from Day One…
Geez….
No obsession (note spelling) Chas. Just stirring the pot. I’m enjoying the Dems’ fracture.
Oh and Chas? Yo mamma…
McCain is not crazy.
He is a conscious, two-faced, bold-faced liar.
Are Obama supporters deluding themselves?
Hmmmm. My first impression of them is that this a a campaign in serious need of adult supervision.
I hope that impression changes before Tuesday.
Outlander, I find your blatant racism very despicable…. You are persona non grata!! And so I mis spelled a word… Wow!! That is your answer to your obsessions??? REAL mental stability there, Outlander… :roll:
Chas
PLEASE think and study before you post.
No judge would have found anyone in Contempt of Court AND kept that person in jail for as long as McDougal was in Jail, had Susan McDougal not had knowledge of illegal activity.
Susan McDougal did not talk, because she was protecting the Clintons!
Clinton PARDONED Susan McDougal
Quid Pro Quo:
“Susan McDougal (born 1955 in Heidelberg, Germany) is one of the few people who served prison time as a result of the Whitewater controversy in the United States, though fifteen individuals were convicted of federal charges. She is most notorious for refusing to answer “three questions” for a grand jury about whether President Bill Clinton lied in his testimony during her Whitewater trial. Her refusal lead to 18 months jail time for contempt of court, which was most of her total 22 months of incarceration. McDougal received a full Presidential pardon from outgoing President Clinton in the final hours of his presidency in 2001.”
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Susan_McDougal
Note:
McDougal did not say “NO”
McDougal did not say “YES”
McDougal did not say “I don’t know”
McDougal refused to say anything, thereby avoiding pejury charges.
Her contempt charge, as well as 4 felony convictions, were then pardoned by Clinton.
Geez now the cons are writing bad poetry and songs.
How much WORSE it will be from them after November.
See what I mean, Econ??? You carry on as if Susan McDougal was found guilty of something other than refusing to answer questions. Isnt her time in prison a violation of her 5th Amendment Rights??? Oh, but NOOOOOOOO — YOU have it all decided in your gray matter that she was protecting the Clintons…
So you have any PROOF of that allegation??
If NOT, then her Presidential Pardon was long over-due… It should never have gotten that far…
Now, if you dont know that, then friend, you need to find another country… Cause you dont have any respect for the LAW of THIS Land!!
Econ, how utterly convenient of you to leave out the following from your Link above >>>
“After serving four months on the Whitewater fraud conviction, McDougal was released for medical reasons[14].
After her release, McDougal’s embezzlement trial in California began. McDougal was acquitted of all twelve counts of embezzlement [15] later in 1998. A suit in 1999 against Nancy Mehta for malicious prosecution was settled out of court [16].
McDougal’s trial for criminal contempt-of-court and obstructon of justice charges began in March 1999. The jury hung 7-5 in favor of acquittal for contempt of court, and found her not guilty on the charge of obstruction of justice[17].”
Anybody reading that Link can readily see that Susan McDougal was a victim of prosecutorial mis-conduct… Which is more than likely why she was given a Presidential Pardon!
I guess you were afraid to include the aquittals, for fear you would not look so good on an “anonymous” Blog, eh??
Why must you keep up the lies against the Clintons?? NONE of your Lies are true, Econ!!
Chas I think you got to this forum a little late.
Paul has told us that “truth is whatever I believe it is” HIS words.
Of course he also has made lying into an art form and been busted on many occasions.
Ya don’t wanna get crossways of him though!
HE has been recruited by goons to beat up gay people in parks because of his “fighting skills”!
Well, the Blog definitely gets less than top billing this time of year… Gotta go for now…
Good night; Good luck; and
God bless; whatever you conceive God to be!
Blessings All!!
“Again, you are being dishonest and your smear, of me, did not work.”
Of course it did, and thus the need for your dishonest histrionics. You are one really dumb ass. Everyone here knows that.
Sorry man, go back to peddling bad insurance deals, okay?
Steven
You said that I said something I clearly did not say.
You lost on that one.
If you really thought that I had ever called McCain “crazy” you would have posted that quote.
You probably looked.
You could not find it.
You lost.
Chas
There were 15 different people convicted of various charges, concerning Whitewater and Madison Guarantee Savings and Loan.
What, exactly, did Hillary Clinton DO, to deserve a $2,000.00 a month retainer from a firm that ended up going under, and causing so many legal problems?
And, Juvenile
If you recall the context, you presumptuously tried to tell Me what I believed.
And yes, on that subject, the truth IS what I say it IS!
Chas
Do you think that ALL of Bill Clinton’s Pardons were justified?
Many, many Democrats disagree with you. They said so at the time.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bill_Clinton_pardons_controversy
Now, Econ, there you go again!! Where did I ever say that all of Clintons pardons were jusstified… NOWHERE!!! So, why do you bring it up??? So you can shoot it down, and pretend that I SAID IT…
Well, troll boy, you got that WRONG AGAIN!!!
But, do keep trying!!
A Clinton whitehouse, and with a democratic majority in both houses, will not have to endure endless investigations at the govt. expense.
How can all those Democrats disagree with me, over something I didnt SAY??? See, thats what happened to Susan McDougal… She never said anything, but YOU have her pegged as guilty by silence!! What a JOKE, Econ!! GET REAL for once!!!
To the poet who called Obama a coon…
I find you lower than snake shit. NONE of us who want Hillary at the top of the ticket have implied any such hateful thing. I think he’s inexperienced, soft, and bigoted.
But it never said anything about his race.
Yer so low, you could walk under a closed door with a top hat on your head.
Clinton pardoned McDougal. Bush did the same with Traitor Libby.
“Everybody knows it.”
And everybody knows that Bush/Rove/BobJonesU did the push-poll smear campaign against McCain.
And the other night a KNSS talk show referred to McCain as ‘Juan McCain’ and scum.
Paul,
Give yourself all the plagues you wish. Because those are the only plaques you’ll ever get.
You know what you were trying to do. And anyone with any ability to detect deception and nonsense recognizes what you were trying to do, too.
It does appear that people with brains in your party are thinking that McCain may be the most electable of the Republic candidates.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/02/01/AR2008020101141_2.html
Sorry, you and your loser candidate both lose, as is frequently the case…
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