An integral part of the American dream for many is the hope that their children will have an even more prosperous life than they themselves enjoyed. A recent Pew study, however, found that the dream is fading. On the backs of bloated credit card bills and rising costs of living, many families are dancing with the breaking point. Meanwhile, the rich keep getting richer. Bob Herbert of the New York Times blames the growing inequality on the system.
"We’re running out of smoke and mirrors," he wrote. "The fundamental problem, the problem that is destroying the dream, is the extreme inequality pounded into the system by the corporate crowd and its handmaidens in government. . . . When such an overwhelming portion of the economic benefits are skewed toward a tiny portion of the population — as has happened in the U.S. over the past few decades — it’s impossible for the society as a whole not to suffer."
Posted by Kristin Mehler
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123 Comments
Glad you posted this article Kristin.
Kirstin, you are really going to stir up the defenders of the status quo with this one! I can imagine the cold-war mentality cliches our favorite posters will trot out!!
Economic justice is a worthy concept to discuss. Thanks for bringing it up, but stand back!
I will direct readers to view: http://preview.tinyurl.com/yvatp
EXCERPT: data suggest that wealth is concentrated in the hands of a small number of families. The wealthiest 1 percent of families owns roughly 34.3% of the nation’s net worth, the top 10% of families owns over 71%, and the bottom 40% of the population owns way less than 1%
This guy is spouting pure envy.
What you have is, for the most part, up to you and you alone.
How can you blame the “rich” for the bad decisions of those who are not “rich”?
How in the world are the “rich” keeping any one else from becomming “rich”?
Since the rich have more money to spend and invest, would not the rich want more rich people?
It is only the liberal Democrat Party, together with Socialists and Communists, that benefit, politically or financially, from poverty.
“”You cannot bring about prosperity by discouraging thrift.
“You cannot help small men by tearing down big men.
“You cannot strengthen the weak by weakening the strong.
“You cannot lift the wage earner by pulling down the wage payer.
“You cannot help the poor man by destroying the rich.
“You cannot keep out of trouble by spending more than your income.
“You cannot further the brotherhood of man by inciting class hatred.
“You cannot establish security on borrowed money.
“You cannot build character and courage by taking away men’s initiative and independence.
“You cannot help men permanently by doing for them what they could and should do for themselves.”
The above is often attributed to Abraham Lincoln, but he probably never said it.
http://www.larryelder.com/abraham.html
Anyway, how did the “rich” force me, or anyone else, to put a vacation, a jet ski, a new GPS system, and a big screen TV on my credit cards?
(Actually, I don’t have any of those things, and I generally only travel on business.)
David, as to this:”EXCERPT: data suggest that wealth is concentrated in the hands of a small number of families. The wealthiest 1 percent of families owns roughly 34.3% of the nation’s net worth, the top 10% of families owns over 71%, and the bottom 40% of the population owns way less than 1%
Posted by: David B | December 24, 2007 at 01:42 PM
—–I would suggest to you, that if you took ALL of the wealth in America, and divided it, evenly, among ALL the people in America, that within about 10 years, you would find that “wealth” had concentrated, again, pretty much where it used to be.
Of course, the TOTAL wealth of the nation would have declined, dramatically, as several of those who were handed so much, would not use it wisely.
I agree with this thread subject. Wait Paul, what will YOU do when socialized medicine takes hold, and you can’t make your money off the backs of sick people?
Wages, taxable income and wealth are NOT the same thing.However, the top 5% of wage earners pay over 53% of total income taxes.http://www.rushlimbaugh.com/home/menu/top_50__of_wage_earners_pay_96_09__of_income_taxes.guest.html
pmomaGive me a break!I have over 300 clients, in the last 5 years alone, that have been on MEDICARE.Do you think that the government would dare change Medicare around that much?Also, there is virtually NO chance, no matter who is elected, that the “plan” we get, for the uninsured, who do not qualify for Medicare or Medicaid, will be better thand Medicare.
Your comment is telling, however.
Those who complain about the “rich” are actually just envious.
You want to “tear down” the productive, as a goal unto itself.Whether that promotes any general good is beside the point, to you.
Instead of clicking around to your favorite conservative websites and cutting and pasting more pabulum.. consider reading about “THE JUST THIRD WAY:A New Vision for Providing Hope,Justice and Economic Empowerment”
See: http://preview.tinyurl.com/2cn2tp
There is a story that goes that an American Indian chief traveled to the east and saw the great cities and all they had to offer. He was asked what he thought of the prosperous civilization he observed. He replied that the White Man was very good at producing wealth, but was very poor at distributing it fairly.
David B
Name a Communist country that “distributes” wealth fairly.
For starters, let us agree that socialism and communism end up reducing “total” wealth.
In other words, while you dicker about the size of your “slice of the pie” — your policy choices will actually SHRINK the entire pie.
OMFG!!!! Only a total moron would read Rush Limbaugh and only dimmest of those twits would even consider quoting anything that two faced, pill popping, welfare collecting, lying dipshit says. I cannot find the link but there was a study done and less than 30% of what that dumbass says has any truth to it. Perhaps you could actually post facts?
LOL! Name a country with the most expensive and best health care systems in the world (let’s call that a form of wealth) and who cannot fairly distribute that wealth to its population.
Oh , Doc…. by the way, in nationalized health care countries, doctors continue to earn a very very good living.
No one is goiing to take your cow away!!!!
We are so quick to decry the lowered educational levels and decline of the family, yet both parents are now expected to have full time jobs to maintain a decent standard of living.
Vacation time for ordinary workers can be 6 to 7 weeks a year in the UK, for instance. Imagine how renewing that must be for families to be able to get way for an entire month and still have weeks to enjoy and recreate.
If it is at all possible to avoid name calling on this board, it would be appreciated. (STAY OFF MY SIDE!!!) LOL!!!
No one is suggesting taking your cow away.
From the article: “A recent Pew study, however, found that the dream is fading. On the backs of bloated credit card bills”.
Perhaps people should just spend less than they make.
Read the “Millionaire Next Door” sometime- spending habits have more to do with wealth creation than income.
LOLThe hatefull tirade, above is from someone who obviously can’t handle the truth.Nobody disputes the figures in the link I gave you.Everything is referenced.However, just because I link someone you don’t like, you refuse to argue based on logic or facts?Try this: Go to the link, look at the references involved, and prove that Limbaugh misquoted the reference, or disprove the reference. (Hard to do, when Limbaugh quotes the US Treasury Department).Now, folks, as I said, if you divided up all the wealth in the nation, distributing it evenly, among the population, I am guessing, in 10 years, that the 2:34 poster, above, would be broke, and asking for a handout, again!Anybody can fall on hard times.
I look down on no one.However, those of you who hate the successful have only yourselves to blame for your hardships.
“if you divided up all the wealth in the nation, distributing it evenly,”LOL!!!!
Thanks for arguing against something that no one is proposing! I did not see the article putting all the money in the USA in a pot and passing it around!! LOL!!
He is saying the powerful rich are rigging the system.
“The fundamental problem, the problem that is destroying the dream, is the extreme inequality pounded into the system by the corporate crowd and its handmaidens in government.”
I, for my part, do not particularly envy the rich. Their lives seem more screwed up than mine is!
When we see tax cuts and credits renewed for big oil who are sitting on record profits, Bush telling voters, “You got yer tax cut, didn’t ya?” when it is $17 for my peers and a new Lexus or two for the rich.. I gotta wonder… is this fair? WHen I hear about a boy who DIED because did not get dental care when that could easily be provided by a society as rich as ours… I gotta ask… is that fair? Is that right? Can’t it be better? Can’t we do better by for the little people?
I don’t want one of your cows. I just want to be able to see a doctor when I am without wondering if I can afford it or not.
“Wages, taxable income and wealth are NOT the same thing.However, the top 5% of wage earners pay over 53% of total income taxes.”
posted by econ.
Well, duh, the top 5% tax payers own over 50% of the nations wealth. Ya see, econ, rush is a multi-divorced liar in real life; his word at the alter evidently doesn’t mean anything. Hell, I thought it was only the liberals whop did that. So why would one believe him on any other point?
O, ya . . . he’s also a doper, swallowing pain pills while calling all other pill poppers morons. Isn’t that something else only those despicable liberals did? That’s the guy I want telling me waht to think . . . NOT!
Cherry-pickin’ is rushes stock and trade. If there were money in liberal radio, he would jump ship in a heart beat. After all, in real life, he acts more like your idea of a liberal than a liberal does.
This is the same guy who, after being selected for monday night football, using the usual rushter racist republican logic, said the only reason the announcers were talking up the quarterback was because he was black. Guess what? Fired that night. He’s about as stupid as any republican I’ve ever met. But like minds and all . . . right, econ?
Great post, Kristin.
This is the most important issue of our time, and no one is talking about it.
As for Econ’s assertion that if we divied up all the wealth evenly, “it would just get concentrated again,” how does he explain that wealth became LESS concentrated from the turn of the 20th Century until about 1980 or so?
Answer–labor unions.
Once Reagan cut the legs out of unions and encouraged outsourcing with every gov’t incentive he could think of, he literally dialed back the clock to the gilded age.
But of course, that’s what CONservatives want: to re-live a mythical romanticised past, where darkies strummed banjos and women wore long dresses on the veranda and everybody went to church twice a week.
Y’know, somebody actually crunched the numbers a few years ago and found that the largest predictor of great wealth by far wasn’t hard work or creative thinking or even luck, it was having a rich daddy.I suppose Pall is now going to argue that people without money made a poor choice of parents.
yer gonna force this down hill aren’t ya? Grrrrr.
Exactly, JayWalk! The CONs keep trotting that canard out and people like you and me keep shooting it down:
the only way the rich could pay less INCOME tax (which is a tax on . . . uh . . . income?) is to MAKE LESS INCOME.
The fact that they pay such a high percentage of the money raised by the income tax just shows how the rich are getting richer.
The CONs try to make us think that we owe the rich a debt of gratitude for paying so much in taxes. BULL$HIT. Let me trade places with one of them–I’ll be glad to pay their taxes if I can make their income.
You Liberal Socialist Democrats will love the latest campaign ad from Senator Clinton.
Sitting alone, she’s gathering her Christmas presents to America. You see several little Socialist Packages under the tree.
(No husband and no daughter around the Clinton family tree.)
All to buy your votes. And paid for by taxpayers.
http://www.riehlworldview.com/carnivorous_conservative/2007/12/now-here-is-a-d.html
Revised version of this ad:
http://michellemalkin.com/2007/12/21/a-very-hillary-christmas/
Now contrast Senator Clinton’s Christmas ad with Senator Obama’s Christmas ad.
http://thecaucus.blogs.nytimes.com/2007/12/19/obama-family-sends-christmas-cheer/
See how Obama has his whole family there. A nice warm friendly Christmas scene with no campaign Socialist Boxes to hand out.
Senator Clinton on the other hand, is ice-cold, and is ruthless in handing out cold little campaign promise packages, gifts to you suckers who vote for her. Clinton’s gifts are paid for by taxpayers, and are not from her cold, cold, heart.
For all my Kommrades out there…
…I’m dreaming of a Red Xmas…
…Just like the vuns we used to know…
…Vit Rubles glistening and AK47 soldiers listening…
…for any defectors in motherland’s snoOooOOW….
…sing it now Kommrades! or you vont be getting your rations!…
Can’t you trot out any more meaningless, inaccurate adjectives???
I dunno why you guys work against your own interests under the guise of some abstract “principles” that only reinforce the inequitable status quo.
Self-loathing, some deep seated guilt? A need to have a strong, stern unloving father figure telling you what is “right” without you having to think about it or justify it?
It really puzzles me how we can think society is so screwed up and yet refuse to even consider ways to make it better.
This is a bona fide Senator Clinton ad. I couldn’t believe it either when I saw it on TV today!
http://www.riehlworldview.com/carnivorous_conservative/2007/12/now-here-is-a-d.html
You poor people would be rich, IF you were as good as me and worked as hard as me.
Not everybody can be as great as I am. Don’t blame me for being so great and rich. I earned it.
Look, if you can’t get rich by earning it, then steal it.
Vote Socialist.
It really puzzles me how we can think society is so screwed up and yet refuse to even consider ways to make it better.
Posted by: David B | December 24, 2007 at 04:18 PM
It’s called not living beyond your pocket book.
Having champagne tastes with a beer wallet?
Not getting that 59 inch plasma TV when you can only afford a 27 inch color TV?
Not signing that car loan for five years for 600.00/month?
Tucking away twenty five percent of your income per month in investment and savings instead of paying 75 percent of your income on a house you cannot afford?
The list goes on…
What do they call it?
Common sense!
Getting ill and requiring medical treatments that yer insurance won’t pay for.. the # 1 cause of bankruptcies???
The # 1 cause of bankruptcies??? Not big TVs… not irresponsibility. A bad health care system.
A rigged system. Such misanthropy I see here on this weblog!
The reason for not having adequate health insurance is because too many Americans are spending outlandish monies on houses, cars, electronics and luxuries they cannot afford!
All one has to do is drive by and visit any average income family in an overly luxurious house in Wichita and see the Multi-car driveway filled with late model cars, and the bejeweled economic spoilers that trot in and out of their house after a fresh visit from the mall with their arms filled with unnecessary packages of products they will seldom use, to exhibit exactly what I’ve pointed out.
When families spend thousands of dollars per month on luxury and vanity items – I have no sympathy for them when they cry they can’t afford medical when the bill comes.
“Wull Bill honey, mabee we shuldn’t have bought that 80,000 dollar RV now that you have throat cancer. I guess this $400,000 house is a bit much for the two of us. I still owe the jeweler about 15,000 for that last diamond earrings I bought. Bill, turn on the 59 inch Plasma TV, there’s a movie on the Cable Extra Super Deluxe Special Double Extra Charge Channel I want to watch.
Oh and Bill, can you move the bass boat out of the garage I want to spray paint some silk flowers I bought. They were $20.00 each and I bought 50 of them. I don’t want to mess this up! After all, our fancy garden party that’s being catered by the best with a special band with the gold trimmed candy is going to be special!”
Face it, folks. Trickle down STILL isn’t working.
Anybody had a trickle lately?
Kansas, you don’t have a clue, do you?
Instead of standing around waiting for a trickle Rox, why don’t you make your own stream?
What’s stopping you.
Come on, give me your list of excuses.
Blame others, not yourself.
Nasty big corporations, that’s the problem.
If I only had free healthcare, that’s the problem.
Those rich people, if they gave me theirs, I would have more.
I’m sure you can add to this list Rox.
Kansas, you don’t have a clue, do you?
Posted by: Rox | December 24, 2007 at 05:08 PM
I don’t?
Tell me what I don’t have a clue about.
Tell me I can’t go in almost any middle income house in Wichita and find similar things what I pointed out.
Show me where I am wrong that most middle income Americans outspend their monthly incomes.
If only Hillary Clinton was President, we’d have more presents!
Max, that video is classic Clinton.
All to buy your votes. And paid for by taxpayers.
http://www.riehlworldview.com/carnivorous_conservative/2007/12/now-here-is-a-d.html
Revised version of this ad:
http://michellemalkin.com/2007/12/21/a-very-hillary-christmas/
Posted by: Max | December 24, 2007 at 04:09 PM
“For all my Kommrades out there…”
Posted by kansas.
Really, kansas, how about all the recalls for toys made in china? I guess sending American jobs overseas and getting Rudolph the lead nose reindeer in return is okay by you.
How about: For all you neocons out there . . .
I dunno J M Walker, how about all those lead toys?
Are you riding the political mantra horse side saddle today and is that a macaroni in you hat?
you=your
Obviously, it is a Republican, right wing plot to force people to spend too much on their credit cards. The nasty, mean old big corporations are keeping the people “down”.Yep…it is a plot..clearly caused by a political party for its own gains.
How stupid can these arguments get?????
Kansas–It’s called not living beyond your pocket book.
Having champagne tastes with a beer wallet?
Not getting that 59 inch plasma TV when you can only afford a 27 inch color TV?
——-
Geez, using that standard, Kansas would have a 9 inch black and white TV.
This is a guy who lives in a house with less square footage than ONE of Dick Cheney’s garages, but he’ll defend to the death Cheney’s right to earn 36 million in six months.
Next to the dictionary definition of “useful idiot,” there’s a picture of Kansas.
Ah the Libs when they can’t make a point, resort to ad hominem just like old JayEm.
The coward behind the troll nic.
Yeah, Kansas is the troll problem on the WE Blog. (cough, cough, cough)
Okay:For all you neocons out there:
Send me $50 and I’ll send you a prayer card guaranteed to get you into heaven. Double your money back if you go to hell.
If any homeless die of cold during the winter storm, you get first shot at their shoes.
All soldiers questioning the Iraq war will have their tour extended by 18 months . . . don’t mess with the bush.
Any liberal found attending Christmas church service will be tortured by neocons. Waterboarding optional.
Neocons found NOT attending Christmas church services will be subject to Bill Clinton playing xmas songs on his saxophone for three days straight. Self abuse optional.
Oh my J M Walker, you are getting desperate now and not making any sense at all. Time to put the egg nog back in the ‘fridge.
First: “Are you riding the political mantra horse side saddle today and is that a macaroni in you hat?”
Then: “Ah the Libs when they can’t make a point, resort to ad hominem just like old JayEm.”
Both posted by kansas.
I would say that the house troll, er, kansas, seems to be able to do the same with ease. Damn, you are developmentally challenged, aren’t you?
How big is your house in square feet, Kansas?
I seriously think that Cheney’s garage is bigger, and that’s just for ONE of his six houses.
“Oh my J M Walker, you are getting desperate now and not making any sense at all. Time to put the egg nog back in the ‘fridge.”
Posted by kansas.
I said self abuse was optional, not mandatory. Eat more fish.
I added my own statement of nonsense to yours J M Walker. Evidently, the quality of nonsensical statements wasn’t up to your standards of meaningless statements? :)
Or are you admitting that you are JayEm – J M Walker.
Sounds like an admission to me.
Troll much?
Can’t prove it that you didn’t do it?
Are you feeling uncomfortable being accused of being a troll?
Try adding that feeling every day, then tell me how you feel J M Walker.
J M Walker the troll and he can’t prove that he is not.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/19165433/
“It was kind of weird,” she told TODAY host Matt Lauer about that moment in an exclusive interview. Since she was pulled from the 8-inch pipe in October of 1987 when she was a 18-month old toddler, Jessica McClure Morales hadn’t returned to that well until she went there with a TODAY crew. Indeed, she had never appeared live on television or given a free interview with the media.
—–
Is this one of your relatives, Kansas?
Why are you afraid to use your regular nic troll Jay Em?
No guts?
Let your Lib friends see what kind of person you are.
A cowardly troll that attacks from the safety behind your computer screen.
Sad using a news story of a little girl who almost died to do troll attacks.
Perhaps that’s why you are hiding?
Cowardly you are? Yes, I would say so.
They’ve grown used to having a secretary of defense in their midst — the way his weekend estate is tucked behind a bend in the road, how he takes casual walks tailed by dark SUVs. Rumsfeld bought a weekend house in St. Michaels two years ago.
Now, residents of this Eastern Shore retreat are preparing for someone even bigger to buy a house down the road: the vice president.
“I’d heard it was going to close either Tuesday or Wednesday of this week,” Carroll Hurley, a funeral home owner, said Saturday, seated with his breakfast gang at the Carpenter Street saloon and restaurant. …
The house, listed at $2.9 million, backs up in spectacular fashion to an inlet of the Chesapeake Bay. “Right out by [Defense Secretary Donald H.] Rumsfeld’s,” said Charles Mangold Sr., whose Benson & Mangold agency brokers high-end estates in the area. “It’s under contract, but he hasn’t settled yet.” …
And the owner of the house in question declined to comment, saying politely from the end of its long driveway that he didn’t want to talk about anything.
The estate goes back to 1930 and was said to be built by one of Thomas Edison’s daughters, according to Robert Snyder, the Coldwell Banker agent who is listing the property.
The nine-acre lot includes extensive gardens, ornamental pools and spectacular views of the water behind it. Deer and osprey can be seen.
——
You can’t see any deer from Kansas’ house. You can see the crows and rats picking picking through the dumpster of the Quick Trip though.
Good grief, kansas, you were so many people here, you had your own anonymous listings. But now that you have “rehabbed”, you can now pontificate about anyone who you think is a troll?
Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha!
I resemble that remark, JM Walker.
Aww.. why has the level of debate just lowered???
Of course the american dream has been rigged. Between greed for money and power (the money to get the power, and the power to get the money), the little people are lead down the road to ruin by businesses and leaders alike.
I made no personal attacks on anyone today J M Walker.
I commented on their motives, their politics and their statements.
I never made it personal like the troll Jay Em is doing.
Why don’t you make a comment about him instead of me?
That lack of calling about Lib trolls, I will never understand.
You say you hate trolling J M Walker, yet you never call our your own who are the worst offenders.
Like I said, I use this nic only.
Or you wouldn’t know who to attack now would you?
Maybe I should start trolling with different nics, so your Lib troll buddies won’t have a target.
What do you think J M Walker, how about several hundred troll posts per day all with different names?
Or, you Libs can challenge your troll buddies to stop trolling.
We all know it’s either Steven Davis, CapnAmerica, cosmos or J R.
Take them to task Libs, they are the ones doing the trolling with fake nics.
See this nic “Kansas”? You have a target and are hiding behind false identities.
Take them on Libs posters.
Where is your courage?
Aww.. why has the level of debate just lowered???
Posted by: David B | December 24, 2007 at 06:21 PM
Ask your Lib friends David B.
Take them to task.
You know where I am if you need to call me out, just address the nic “Kansas.”
I don’t hide like the Libs do.
Good night.. carry on the personal attacks…….
Good night.. carry on the personal attacks…….
Posted by: David B | December 24, 2007 at 06:25 PM
coward
Instead of addressing the Libs doing the troll attacks, you run away.
Geez, Kansas, why don’t you write the editor an e-mail?
That’s right, now I remember–
“Brownlee has stopped replying to my emails.”
Posted by: kansas | December 21, 2007 at 05:14 AM
the little people are lead down the road to ruin by businesses and leaders alike.
Posted by: Billy Bob | December 24, 2007 at 06:21 PM
The little people are as greedy as anyone else.
The difference is, they don’t want to work to get the things they want. They want government to give it to them, like little piggies lining up at their mother’s teet.
The little people are as greedy as anyone else.
Mike-Pat Pissonyi
—–
Yeah, we know. We’ve been reading what you write.
LIBERAL WANNA BE’S: Stop the friggin personal attacks. Address policy, please.
Economic justice.
Okay, David, for you, I’ll stop.
I hate frigtard liberal wannabe’s as much as anyone. Stay off my side! But this fabulous civilization can do do much better than we are doing.
In the spirit of the season..
Portly Gentleman: At this festive time of year, Mr. Scrooge, it is more than usually desirable that we should make some slight provision for the poor and destitute, who suffer greatly at the present time.
Ebenezer: Why? Are there no prisons? Are there no workhouses?
Portly Gentleman: Many can’t go there; and many would rather die.
Ebenezer: If they would rather die, they had better do it, and decrease the surplus population.
I expect kansas gets so heated here, he hasn’t had to use his heater yet. Saves a lot on the ole gas bill, though:-)
The American dream, that is a sad story, it is now just a myth for most people.I guess for now the best thing to do is to repeat history, rise in arms and attack those rich people again, just like the good old days of the Middle Ages.
The American dream is dead.
Ronald Reagan was the shooter.
Oh you can still get rich. But ya gotta play the game. That means leaving things like your self respect or your compassion for your fellow man in a box of memories.
Again for Republicans I wish a kharma experience holiday season. To everyone else, do something nice for somebody EVERY day. This biz of peace and good will restricted to one day a year is the OPPOSITE of what we should practice.
Greeenspan has expressed some concerns about society may not long tolerate the great discrepancies in fortunes.
Even the Huckster is talking about how unjust it is for the CEO’s to make their fortunes exporting the jobs and companies that the working class has built up.
653
_.
___…
You may not have to be the brightest pencil in the deck to flip burgers at McDonald’s, but there is nothing rational that justifies the CEO of McDonald’s to make 500-to-700 times more than the average McDonald’s employee. If it’s such a great capitalistic model, the CEO and the burger-flipper deserve to reap reasonably comparable benefits from the enterprise.
Far too many businesses exploit the actual work of employees for the benefit of capital. If CEOs’ incomes were limited to 50 or 60 or even a hundred times their average employee’s salary, capitalism would be a fine economic system for all involved. Customers would still get their $1 double cheeseburger, burger-flippers could afford to raise their families and send send their kids to college, investors would make a fair return on their capital, and there would be a truly productive economy for everyone involved.
So-called “conservatism” has skewed captialism far beyond any reasonable balance. And so-called “conservative” politics has spent the last 25 years or so hell-bent on killing the golden goose for the sole benefit of capital and executives.
George WMD Bush, in a rare moment of honesty, said his base of support came from the “haves and have-mores.”
There was a poll a couple of years ago which revealed that something like 90% of Americans consider themselves to be “middle class.” There were a lot of very, very rich people in that 90% who think they deserve more… and many, many people in that 90% who can’t imagine eaarning all that much more than they’re getting.
Fact is 90% of Americans most certainly doesn’t (I mean, do the math, f’r chrissake!) constitute a *middle* class.
And in every civilization in history, in every economic model ever contrived, absolute doom is guaranteed when the haves are overwhelmingly outnimbered by the have-nots.
We see all too often in this forum so-called “conservatives” spew out buzz words like “Libs” and “socialism” and “communism.” But the cold hard facts add up to the only hope civilization has is that everyone who contributes to the economy earns and deserves a fair share of return for that contribution.
We’re so far away from that today in America. And every day we listen to the platitudes of an Economics 101 class… and refuse to go beyond Econ 101… we’re closer to economic disaster spurred by greed.
Walker
No, it is NOT a “DUH”—–”Well, duh, the top 5% tax payers own over 50% of the nations wealth. Ya see, econ, rush is a multi-divorced liar in real life; his word at the alter evidently doesn’t mean anything. Hell, I thought it was only the liberals whop did that. So why would one believe him on any other point?”—–Income and wealth are NOT the same thing.In fact, high income taxes actually prevent people from BECOMMING wealthy.The wealthy don’t need income.
So, if you set tax rates too high, the wealthy will refuse to MAKE income.That is known as a recession.Recessions hurt the middle class.
Capitalism is good and healthy for a country to an extent. When you have corporations giving away jobs so they can have products made by sweatshop workers in China for pennies to in turn sell to the American public for profit. When you have chain stores sprout up and stamp out mom and pop stores with the intent to take all their business, these are a few of the things that piss me off, and we can’t blame the chinese for lead paint and product defaults you have to blame the companies that bypass giving Americans jobs so their ceo can have a more ludicrous salary.
Up with your weaponry to shoot down Santa Claus as a bad influence are ya econ?
Me I’m playing Santa Claus.
Oh and we need us some Robin Hood as opposed to hoods robbin’ for rapacious profits to distribute to the stockholders, functionaries and toadies like you pauliecon.
Your “self respect” is a bogus excuse for an anti-social personality disorder.If you want to better yourself, you MUST change.Society will not tolerate you, the way you are.There are literally hundreds of left-leaning business people, in this area, that would give you a job in a heart beat, if they were not affraid of you scaring off customers.Likewise, there are thousands of conservative business owners that would hire you in a hearbeat, not giving a thought to your personal politics, if they thought you had any “people skills” at all.It is your paranoid “us vs them” mentality that holds you back.Your worst enemy looks at you, in the mirror, every morning.
The same is true of everyone who blames anyone else for their hardships.
The American Dream is alive and well.
It is not obtainable, however, until you give up your envy, your bitterness, and your stubborn refusal to get along with those who disagree with you.
Karl Marx had so much “self respect” that he let his children die of starvation so that he could write his “Communist Manifesto” —
Much like modern liberalism. Blame everyone else for your problems, and take NO responsibility for yourself.
David BI would enjoy a chance to debate you further, on any topic, without the personal attacks that the emotionally unstable seem bent on injecting.I think you are wrong.However, I do not lump you in with the “jerks for peace” crowd, or the “jerks for justice” crowd.
You seem to “walk the walk”.
For the life of me, I do not see how you can argue for “peace” or “social justice” and simultaneously HATE your fellow man.
Obviously, some of the split-personalities, on this Blog, have no problem with those contradictions.
Merry Christmas to ALL (yes, even you) and to ALL a Good Night!
“Your “self respect” is a bogus excuse for an anti-social personality disorder.”
Is THAT right?
Funny. I don’t post lies on people as you have econ.
Oh and “thanks” the advice. I’m an American. I don’t proudly change shape, belief etc. so I can get a fatter wallet.
You know? Like you did?
I bet ya get coal.
I was going to answer Kansas, but I realized two things. First, I have no excuses. I work hard. I just don’t step on people to pad my pockets. I don’t need an SUV (wouldn’t want one) or a jet ski (wouldn’t use one) or a gazillion inch plasma TV. I don’t aspire to be wealthy and I don’t envy, nor am I jealous of those who are.
What I don’t like are those who abuse others, and that includes economic abuse. They’ll say and do anything for the almighty dollar. The thing is, these people are not any happier than I am. And, sometimes, they’re unhappier. We all have our crosses to bear and hardships of some kind to deal with.
The funny thing is, it’s Kansas who keeps saying that everyone has all these “things”, and it reeks of jealousy and bitterness. I hope I’m wrong.
Merry Christmas, my friends. May the joy and peace of this season last far beyond one day a year.
Oh and by the way pauliecon? I work for me.
That’s the essence of America that you want to destroy.
So everyone will be a toady like you.
Get back to your actuarial tables and cost/benefit projections.
Rat.
Merry Christmas Rox.
Merry Christmas Rox.
Kansas — IF the couple who bought the $80,000 RV Motor Home would have known the husband was going to be diagnosed with cancer, they wouldnt have BOUGHT it… Surely you jest that such people could foresee the onset of the cancer, and still bought such a worthless piece of equipment??
See, it’s comments like that in your rants that make people wonder if you have totally lost your mind, or merely misplaced it somewhere near your keyboard??
Merry Christmas!!
And Econ, if you want to suggest that people who dont accept your party line are somehow mentally unbalanced and need rehab, or treatment in some kind of facility, before being turned loose on the economy– err society.. Then how does that make you better that what the Nazi’s did to such people in WW II???
Perhaps people should just spend less than they makePosted by: ben
That assumes you make enough to live.
just because I link someone you don’t like, you refuse to argue based on logic or factsPosted by: econ101
Ya gotta admit, few people would consider looking at Limburger’s site. By time you rechecked everything and tossed out the dreck, you’d forget what you were looking for in the first place. Kinda like looking for Religions of Peace on Phred Felps dot com.
Most of the Haves don’t realize the fundemental difference of life-styles between them and the HaveNots. After paying the mortgage monthly Haves have plenty left for food, clothes, vehicles, plus anything frivolous they can think of. HaveNots pay monthly mortgage, buy bulk food that needs debugging by time you hit the bottom of the box, restitches the clothes from Salvation army, and bums rides to work because they just don’t have the extra money to put into the starter or radiator on their 20 year old vehicle because with winter here they loll in the luxury of a house heated to 55 degrees.HaveNots float a loan costing more either from increased rate (risk) or because payment rates are strung out for 5 years on a $1000 loan. Haves get preferred interest rates because they don’t need the loans in the first place, just too stingy to unload a couple stocks.Haves miss a utility bill? No problem, it was a mistake. HaveNots late a couple days? If they’re not at your door the next day demanding the CASH or they’ll shut you off, they double your deposit when you move residences. Can’t afford the doubled deposit? No problem; for an additional $35 you can split the payments.And from what I’ve noticed of those making more money because they work for it…seems their only job skills are pointing out problems after they develop (by not listening to the peons in the first place) and then telling someone else to fix it or lose their jobs. Oh, yeah, their perma-bent knees and fold-back teeth get them their padded Christmas bonus.
I was holding back on the political stuff for Christmas day, but typical mega-insomnia crap lead me to read your post, ghotiphaze.
I might take mild issue with the comment about those making more money. There are many high-paid professional types (in many areas) who works their butts off. But in truth, though, I’ve spent my own life to trying to get fulfilling (if challenging), enjoyable work that paid well–in order words, in a sense, not work as hard!
But you essentially nailed it, not just in terms of the reality, but also in explaining how that reality actually works.
Those who curse the poor for supposed poor work ethic or lack of responsibility must not have walked a single block in their shoes. If you have the bucks, you can AFFORD to be irresponsible. George W. Bush ran business-after-business into the ground. The average joe would be financially ruined after the first attempt–assuming they could get a business loan in the first place.
Funny how those who have enough to comfortably waste money on piffle feel qualified to sit in judgment on poor people who might purchase a minor luxury or two. Particularly when the punishment for any fiscal indiscipline is harsh and immediate.
Is it any wonder the poor-bashing types support leaders who borrow trillions of dollars to support a government that THEY should be paying for instead? The bill will never come due–or so they think!
And now that I think of it: Dickens’ “Christmas Carol” nailed it quite some time back (Damn socialist!). So maybe it’s not so out-of-bounds after all.
Good posts, MH and Rage.
Our system is set up to reward wealth and to punish poverty in a million myrid ways.
Take for instance our reliance on the automobile.
If you’re reasonably well-off, you buy a new car and you never have a break down.
If you can’t afford to buy a new car, you have to go to some used car huckster and take your chances.
The inevitable break downs, tows and repairs means that the used car ends up costing more than the new car (by the time you figure in resale value).
Meanwhile our underfunded mass transit system insures that the poor stay at a disadvantage.
That’s just ONE example. There’re a million more.
If the wealthy don’t need income, then why are they so greedy? CEO’s don’t need hundreds of millions bonuses, but you’ll not see too many of them turn one down.
I heard a comentator on CNBC saying he couldn’t remember a time when an investor said, I won’t make those millions of dollars on a transaction, because I’ll have to pay 70% taxes.( When the transactions was a zero/sum event.)
Cut taxes for the richCut taxes for corporationsIncrease taxes for the middle and working classCut social programsIncrease property and sales taxes to make up for cuts in social programsSpend billions of corporate contracts for warSpend billions bailing out banksReduce tariffs to send jobs overseasReduce wages by hiring illegal immigrantsWeaken unionsGive billions in subsidies to oil companiesCongress votes itself another pay raiseAverage wages for working people hasn’t increased in years despite rise in productivityTry to remove the estate tax
This is all okay but point out that the rich are getting richer while everyone else gets poorer; that’s class warfare!
Chas”If the shoe fits, wear it”
My comments were not intended for you, personally.
I know for a fact that envy and bitterness and a bad attitude are the things that keep many, otherwise smart, capable people in poverty.
You can not build yourself up by tearing down the strong.
From your posts, I do not put you in the group that thinks otherwise.
You can not build yourself up by tearing down the strong
Posted by: econ101
Funny, I notice it works fine for the affluent.
You can not build yourself up by tearing down the strong.
*****
True. But you can make all society better by requiring those who benefit more to pay more to support the “common good and general welfare.”
Wouldn’t the arguement “Individuals don’t pay taxes, it’s figured into their wage demands”, be as valid as “Corporations don’t pay taxes it’s figured in their pricing structure”?
Wouldn’t the arguement “Individuals don’t pay taxes, it’s figured into their wage demands”, be as valid as “Corporations don’t pay taxes it’s figured in their pricing structure”?
You can blame the REPUBLICANS for this. They have given away the country to the rich. Not only with their tax policies but their pork and contracts and everything else. And I also blame Bill Clinton for NAFTA which drained millions of good union jobs from America too.
“Income and wealth are NOT the same thing.In fact, high income taxes actually prevent people from BECOMMING wealthy.The wealthy don’t need income.So, if you set tax rates too high, the wealthy will refuse to MAKE income.That is known as a recession.Recessions hurt the middle class.”
Another nonsensical post by econ.
If you have money, you can afford tax breaks, given to the rich by bought and paid for republicans, ergo, WEALTH gets tied up and unused, subjecting the government to less taxes to pay for earmarks. Increasing taxes, which can be done by closing loopholes for the rich, will not hurt the middle class.
Who was the enron thief? Day? After having to live on less than he was used to, he said he finally understood what poor meant. I seriously doubt that.
I can’t achieve the American dream without the government.
I am just too stupid and incapable of supporting myself.
I pray Clinton will be President so she can hand out more free stuff to me!
“”"I can’t achieve the American dream without the government.
I am just too stupid and incapable of supporting myself.
I pray Clinton will be President so she can hand out more free stuff to me!”"”
Everybody gets help from the government. Even the rich. Did you pay for the street in front of your house? Usually the rich get more from the government than anybody. Our courts are clogged with rich people and businesses suing each other!
Wealth normally generates income. It is really nothing other than accumulated income, in the form of assets.So that arguemnet ‘Weathy people don’t need income’ is kind of silly. If they did not produce income, they would have to liquidate assets to cover their living expenses.
Posted by: Dummacrat | December 25, 2007 at 03:50 PM
just another canard bandied about with the sole purpose of obfuscation. Nowhere in the thread was that even alluded to.
I remember when Trump, or maybe it was Turner, went bankrupt several years ago and the courts only allowed them 200k a week to live on. They said there was no way they could survive on only 200k a week. At the 20k a year many have to live on, he’d last about an hour.What did Marie Antoinette say? Let them have cake? (Yeah, I know, she probably really didn’t say that)
I think the point some people are missing is that a lot of people don’t want to be wealthy, given the chance anybody would choose to be wealthy if they had the kind of connections and open doors. But some people would just like there to be enough jobs to go around to provide a livable income for more people. My point is there aren’t enough jobs provided that pay livable incomes. My point is there are a lot of people that would do any job if it would provide them with a livable income, but there are more jobs being outsourced because Americans don’t want to bust their ass and then overtime with a job that dosen’t even give them the means to live from paycheck to paycheck. Why would an American want to do back breaking labor for 6 dollars an hour, the truth is we don’t because we know its not worth it, its not a livable income. So you get jobs Americans refuse to do, and in turn the corporations are like, “fine, we’ll give it to illegal mexicans, we’ll outsource our labor to china, why should we lose money paying an American a living wage”.
We do have people obsessed with wealth and power, and its every Americans right to try and achieve wealth and power if that is their American dream. But some people who have achieved that, it isn’t enough, they’ll tweak everything out where nothing matters but the bottom line.
Theres people who work for money, and then theres money that works for people, and the people who have money that works for them are the ones who are able to tilt the table in their favor. That was probably the whole point of labor unions, then people became pissed off because labor unions demand too much, so the corporations give a big screw you and start outsourcing American jobs. Well the working people have lost their leverage to keep the table balanced, if you don’t give what the big shots call the little people any leverage, then you leave the doors wide open for them to be trampled on.
the end. merry christmas
Tax policy will either encourage or discourage investment.
Investment encourages employment.
Employment grows the tax base.
Therefore:
“It is a paradoxical truth that tax rates are too high today, and that tax revenues are too low, and the soundest way to balance the budget is to cut taxes now, only full employment can balance the budget, and tax cuts will pave the way to full employment”
Former Democrat VP Candidate Lloyd Bentsen, quoting JFK, when Bentsen stood, in the United States Senate, to support the Ronald Reagan supply-side income tax rate cuts.
Tax rate cuts that helped federal revenues go from %500 Billion to over $1.2 Trillion!
How has the purchasing power and wages of the working people in comparison to the CEO’s changed in that period there pauliecon?
Why compare?
What you do, with your talent and effort, is up to you.
Life is a competition with yourself, always trying to do better than you did before.
Success is not determined by anyone but YOU. You set the goal. You determine how to reach that goal.
Set your goals and go for it, trying, constantly, to better yourself.
What everyone else does?
Completely and totally irrelevent!
Now, of course, some people are failures, unable, even, to compete with themselves.
It is not the goal of government, or the job of government, or the just activity of government, to provide equal results.
You have an equal chance.
Don’t blow it!
Change!
Being yourself has failed.
As opposed to being YOU econ, I’m pretty happy in my own skin. If I had done the things you have I couldn’t live next door to myself.
Oh and nice effort on the dodge to my question.
Try your little spew on the folks in the Pew study cited above maybe?
Oh yeah, they deal in facts and not self reaffirming congratulatory pap.
Sellout
LOLChange, or you will always be miserable.Only YOU have any power over your own happiness.
By the way, a “sell out” is a person who sells his beliefs. Some one who changes his beliefs, for money.
I believe everything I say, here. It is impossible to be a “sell out” when speaking from the heart.
On the other hand, nobody is “buying” what you are “selling” and that is why you are so unhappy.
Which, again, is my point.
If you were comfortable with youself, you wouldnt give a rip if I, or anyone else, agreed with you.
I will stand alone, for what I believe, if ever I must.
Fortunately, I am almost always in great company!
You ARE the gift that keeps on giving pauliecon.
“By the way, a “sell out” is a person who sells his beliefs. Some one who changes his beliefs, for money.”
And that defines you no?
“I believe everything I say, here. It is impossible to be a “sell out” when speaking from the heart.”
Uh yeah, I cite any number of threads. A heart is something you don’t have. Morals, your soul and any adhoc principles probably went in the fire sale too.
“On the other hand, nobody is “buying” what you are “selling” and that is why you are so unhappy.”
Unhappy? Damn pauliecon if you didn’t post here I’d have to invent you to make my point.
Oh and on any thread any day any way, you are universally seen as a pariah here. It’s you who is selling. That’s what you do.
Myabe you push insurance good. As a poster to politics you are a dismal failure.You ditched your union and became a policy pusher. If it lets you sleep better to tell yourself that was a positive step you live in a different world from me.
It is not the goal of government, or the job of government, or the just activity of government, to provide equal results.
You have an equal chance.
Don’t blow it!
Change!
Being yourself has failed.
Posted by: econ101 | December 25, 2007 at 09:19 PM
Oh no Econ, the role of Government is to provide for the common welfare.
That is, make sure we all have the same income and same assets.
It doesn’t matter if you work or not. It doesn’t matter if you are smart or stupid.
We should all be equal. Even if some are fat, dumb, and lazy.
Janitors and Doctors should make the same amount of money.
That’s what government is for, to make us all equal. And to make us all happy.
You know, for the common welfare and pursuit of happiness and all that.
Socialism, Clinton or Obama will take us there!
I’m addressing the rogues gallery there “dummacrat”
I’ll get to the peanut gallery later.
JR don’t you think the government can make us all equal?
The government is here to help us.
And to solve all of our problems.
We can trust the government.
They are our best friend.
“Of by and for the people” there troll.
Of course JR.
Government is OF the people.
Government is BY the people.
Government is FOR some (but not all equally) of the people to give to other people (not equally).
And from each according to his ability, to each according to his need.
Dumbcrap, I can’t help help being vitriolic after reading your posts. I’ve seen your ilk hundreds of times. You got through school on daddy’s money. You and 5 other 5th graders got their spending money pounding the snot out of 2nd graders and depriving them of lunch (they deserved it for being weak, anyway). The teachers gave you great grades since you were on the football team so you deserved them. Daddy’s contacts landed you a job where your prime purpose is schmoozing your superiors and denigrating your subordinates. You make sure those beneath you destroy their bodies to give you a better lifestyle while making sure to not give them enough to obtain proper nutrition. But, hey, you’re generous, you make sure they have access to insurance costing 30-50% of their take home pay that has so many clauses and exemptions the only way the insured could use it if they died first.
But hey, they deserved it for not having the daddy you did.
I admit it, I’m jealous. I wish I too lived a life of syncophantic delusion where I couldn’t even tie my own shoes without a $200,000 consultation firm, 3 peons to berate and denigrate padding my own self-ego, and a GPS to find my way.
Actually, we’re comfortable–my wife teaches middle school and i opted for a factory job on 3rd shift to be easily available in case the kids needed me through the day. I have my teacher’s certificate so COULD teach if I wanted to double my income. But at the factory I only have to deal with a few 2nd graders every day; at a school I’d be dealing with nearly 100 2nd graders and I’d still have to deal with the kids, too.My boss has a great attitude–save money on tools; if a worker loses fingers or hands, no biggie, there’re plenty others out there who want bread and beans on their table. Fortunately I can afford my own tools so I can keep my fingers attached. I’ve learned that ibuprophen is the hidden part of the food pyramid your Health teacher never mentioned. But at least the boss gets his shiney new truck every 8 or 10 months. I constantly find ways to make the job faster, neater, and producing a nicer part in the process. The boss doesn’t like it because then people would actually get 10 seconds of standing around between parts.
ghotiphaze:
I can’t deny that it is sometimes hard to make ends meet. I remember a time when I wondered if I could afford both rent and food.
But the reason wasn’t because the “system was rigged”. It was because I made choices about where to live that were not very smart.
It all comes down to choices. Once again, forgo the political crap like Rush or Franken, and look at actual research. I again recommend the book “The Millionaire Next Door”. It details story after story of people who have menial jobs who created wealth by simply spending less than they made.
I agree, Ben. I just take exception to the sanctimonious snits who think the poor are poor because they deserve to be (they don’t), and the affluent who think they’re rich because they deserve it (few of those, too). The poor wouldn’t be so angry if the affluent wasn’t always rubbing their noses in it. Like I said, I’m comfortable. I know if i lost my job or quit, with my education and skills, I’d have another as good or better within a day or two. How many of the affluent can say the same?
Not hard to find a minimum wage job ghotiphaze.
Same pay at McDonalds vs Burger King.
Go for it! Sounds like you need a career boost.
Poor me. At least I can find a new job in just a couple of days.
Pizza Hut would hire me right away if Godfathers let me go.
Good thing I have skills.
ghotiphaze: I wouldn’t say the poor are poor because the deserve it, which seems loaded with lots of baggage, but rather they are poor because of poor choices.
The rich – well jerks are jerks, regardless of wealth. We just notice the rich ones more.
Those rich people make me sooooo mad!
Government should take all their money away and give it to the poor!
Go for it! Sounds like you need a career boost
You’d not last 10 minutes in burger king or mickDs. You’d actually have to do something and get some dirt on you.
Lessee, over the years I’ve done aircraft modification, sheetmetal, avionics, plumbing, construction, grounds maintenance, inventory, and even grocery work. Was 3/4 through my Masters in SpEd when I got bored with it. My problem is I’m easily bored. Mostly, people bore me when they insist on maintaining status quo as opposed to making things easier or better.I have a few marketable skills. Oh, yeah, I’ve done fast food as a flexible schedule when I was doing and accelerated program towards my 1st degree at Newman. And if you do fast food RIGHT, it DOES take more than a few gray cells and a willingness to actually work. Unfortunately, that sort of job tends to get the people looking for upper-management positions (no work, all credit, no blame).
I take it tenacity is not one of your strengths, ghotiphaze.
Could explain the numerous career paths, if you lack the focus to know what you want, and lack the drive to stick with something and finnish what you started.
Could luck updating that 10-page resume.
Jack of all trades, and master of none.
And you wonder why you are not rich?
Don’t worry, Clinton will raise all our boats and everything will be wunnerful!
How much focus DOES it take to sit at the water cooler? I finish what I start–become very good at what I’m doing and move onto something else. Personally, I couldn’t sit around all day doing nothing and blaming other people for things not getting done. I’m happy with my life and content knowing I’m doing right by myself, my family, and my peers. I don’t need a bloated paycheck to compensate for a truncated manhood.BTW, I hope someone raises the boats Bush sunk so you won’t have to move to India or China because America is headed towards coast-to-coast ghetto.