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247 Comments
There is a big Kansas story about possible abuse of power and ethics violations by a Kansas government official, but the Eagle can’t find it?
“Kansas Meadolark” –
It’s in today’s Eagle. And it’s in the Kansas City Star. It is the result of the Topeka Capital-Journal’s enterprise. The Cap-Journal had a scoop. And Paul Morrison is in trouble.
There’s no “liberal media conspiracy” involved in this story.
If the story is as bad as it seems, Morrison is toast poltically. If there is nuance to the issue, maybe not.
Morrison rose to political prominance as a Republic Party stalwart. He became a Democrat because the Republic Party became so beholden to right-wingnuts rational people could not accept what the Kansas Republic Party has become.
The only Big Tent party in American politcs is the Democratic Party. We accept anyone who’s willing to work for the best interests of the people, the state, and the nation. That the Democrats welcomed Paul Morrison into the party doesn’t mean all Democrats blindly accept anything Morrison says or does or believes.
We’ll see how the Attorney General “scandal” works out. At this point it’s a classic “she said, he said” conflict.
It’s hardly an agenda to hang all politics on.
You, “Kansas Meadolark,” haven’t told us your preference as a candidate for President of the United States in the 2008 election. One can assume you prefer one of the Republic Party’s candidates.
But the only thing we hear from you is negativism; we’re pretty clear that you hate anyone and and anything that can be branded with the Democratic Party.
Fine.
So who are you for?
Here’s a link for those curious:
http://www.kansas.com/197/story/250536.html
I am a Morrison supporter, but I remember when introducing my wife to him that I had a funny feeling about he guy. I asked my spouse later, ‘that guy is a horn-dog isn’t he?’ She thought so, too.
I always thought Joyce Morrison was a real nice looking woman.
I am sorry this happened. I thought Morrison had a promising career. But, I also think that he can fulfill his job obligations even though he has made some mistakes in his personal life. If all had to give up their careers for similar mistakes, we’d have a pretty thin work force in this country, don’t ya think?
MoneyHawk: I haven’t decided on whom I’m supporting yet.
I try to focus on Kansas political money stories, and stories the press ignores. Why is that “negative”?
Morrisson wants to do that kind of stuff he’d better move to California! Oz doesn’t play that.
So who is ready for spring?
Talk about disappointing. Just when we get one scumbag out of office, the other one turns out to be as well.
Man that woman needs to held just as accountable for her role in the affair as well. She’s obvious done this because she was mad that he didn’t leave his wife and marry her.
Awinter I am certainly ready! I never have been a winter person, I hated ice and snow so much. I was the only kid on my block that never rode the sled my parents got me for Christmas. What were they thinking?
According to the weather forecast, we have some really nasty stuff coming our way. Sounds like it could be worse than the ice storm we had a couple of years ago.
Time to lay in some kerosene and tarp the cars over.
I love the crisp air and cold feeling on my face…LET IT SNOW!!!!!No better time to sit nekkid in the hot tub! :):):)Happy holidays to you all!!Leonard Pitts at a great column in the paper today..check it out.
Morrison’s problem are not just about the affair.
The charges that he was interferring with a federal case are pretty serious.
He could have his law license taken and see some prison time.
Morrison scandal “bigger than you think”.(sorry I just could not resist – lol)
U.S. Ranked Second Worst Nation For Combating Climate Change
Meanwhile a new report by the climate research group Germanwatch has ranked the United States the second worst industrial nation in the world when it comes to combating climate change. Of the 56 nations ranked, the United States came in a second to last, ahead of only Saudi Arabia.Sweden ranked first on the list. The ranking is based on energy use and carbon dioxide emissions data and on an evaluation of the climate change policies in place in each country.
Looks like Libby is going to drop the charade, and just wait for his pardon.http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20071210/pl_nm/usa_crime_libby_dc_2
As opposed to the mall shooting last week, where CC weapons were prohibited, a woman volunteering for security, who had her own CC weapon, prevented what could have been dozens of additional deaths by putting the shooter down before he could engage in further carnage. She responded accurately as trained, and in a crowded foyer, no innocents were injured–just the murderer.
http://www.cnn.com/2007/US/12/10/colorado.shootings/index.html
Last week several denied that CC could have, or would have made a difference in the outcome of the mall shooting. We’ll never know, since CC was prohibited by the mall. But yesterday CC saved countless lives. The woman is rightly being referred to church leaders, law enforcement and local government officials as a “hero.”
Here is an incident that actually happened. Armed CC guy pulls his gun out and doesn’t shoot.Google Tacoma mall shootings.
The man who was critically wounded during Sunday’s shooting rampage at Tacoma Mall drew a pistol and confronted the gunman before he was cut down by gunfire, his family said Tuesday.
Brendan “Dan” McKown was delivering a bank deposit for a mall gift store when gunshots scattered shoppers at around noon. McKown was among six people hit.
Police say Dominick Sergio Maldonado, 20, of Tacoma, marched through the mall shooting randomly at shoppers before taking four hostages in a Sam Goody music store. He surrendered about four hours later.
Witnesses told McKown’s family that he was shot after he pulled his own handgun during the shooting.
“Our understanding is that Dan drew his weapon and confronted the gunman,” his stepmother, Beverly McKown, said during a news conference Tuesday at Tacoma General Hospital.
McKown, 38, was shot twice in the abdomen and may have suffered permanent paralysis due to spinal damage, said hospital spokesman Todd Kelley. McKown was being brought out of a medically induced coma Tuesday. The other shooting victims were treated at hospitals and released.
annie
What’s your point?
Looks like he should have pulled the trigger, instead of “confronting” the gunman
My point is just because a person has a gun doesn’t mean he or she will use it. What I hear from cc guys are were gonna save the world as long as we are armed.If there was only a cc gun there blah blah blah. Nobody knows how they are going to react in a situation like that.A piece of paper and a gun does not make you an instant hero.Before I take cc seriously there has to be an on going combat training course in place and the ability to maintain yearly permit reviews.
Maybe that citizens carrying guns aren’t always a defense against getting injured or killed.
We need tighter gun control to restrict sick people from having such easy access to guns, and hold gun owners more resposible when their weapons are used to kill or injure others.The fact that a kid can get their hands on an AK-47 is ridiculous.
These CC people are watching too many “Die Hard” movies.
annie Mary
A gun is not a magic talisman and I don’t think that any CCW supporters here view them as such. And it’s not about being a hero, it’s about having a choice, an option.
There’s not enough details in the Tacoma story to make a real judgement on what happened.
It’s odd how so many here look so poorly on people who wish to rise up off of their knees and take responsibility for their own defense.
I’m not against anyone defending themselves, I’m against how easily available weapons are to anyone and everyone. That’s why we have more gun violence in this country than any other industialized country in the world. Aproximately 35,000 people die in this country due to gun accidents, murders, and suicides.Those that feel threatened by any laws that restrict the ownership of firearms just consider the numbers collateral damage, nothing that we should be concerned about, after all people die anyway in swimming pools and car accidents.Even the fact that 5,000 of the gun victims each year are children doesn’t concern them. No child’s life is really worth restricting access to guns.
These CC people are watching too many “Die Hard” movies.
Posted by: The Phantom | December 10, 2007 at 12:34 PM____________
Police did not release the identity of the gunman, who was shot and killed by a member of the church’s armed security staff. Boyd said the gunman had no connection to the church and called it a “senseless random attack.”
Boyd praised the unidentified plainclothes security officer, who was credited with taking down the shooter in a hallway of the church.
“She saved hundreds of lives,” Boyd said.
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,316322,00.html
http://www.cnn.com/2007/US/12/10/colorado.shootings/index.html#cnnSTCVideo
http://www.cnn.com/2007/US/12/10/colorado.shootings/index.html#cnnSTCVideo
Thanks for the comment, Phantom, which gives us insight into your insight.
So you think the answer is to arm citizens and encourage them to go up against someone with a high powered weapon who is intent on killing as many as possible before they take themsleves out?I’d rather see it much harder for the killer to get in a position that others would have to defend themselves against. Let’s try to solve the problem at the source, not give just free reign to those who are violent and crazy and then hold victims responsible for defending their lives.
I somehow doubt that the shooter had hundreds of rounds of ammunition, but it sounds like the female security guard might have saved SOME lives…
And I did notice that the story says she was working AS a security guard — even if she was a volunteer… SO, she had a good reason to have a weapon…Not just an average ordinary CC type person there…
The article on cnn.com also states that the church was implementing its security plan, which would place the volunteer security guard in a higher state of alert than “normal”. With that said, she did as she was trained.
No, not an ordinary CCW type person there, Chas., and not a situation where the “bad guy” takes over a situation by surprise.
Concerning the armed victim: While taking gun safety classes many years ago we were told “When the situation warrants pulling a loaded gun, shoot and ask questions later also shoot to kill because a wounded gunman is just as dangerous as an unwounded one.” In other words we were told that pulling the gun was the time to question. Once the decision was made act on it. I don’t carry because I didn’t think I could really shoot someone. I don’t fault others for carrying though.
On another subject: Out this morning trying to beat the storm and gas prices are falling like a rock. It was down to $2.73 when we left home and on our way home we filled up for $2.63.
My 92 year old mom in Oklahoma has been out of electricity since early yesterday morning. I heard on CNN there are over 400,000 home without services. She has gas heat and is able to stay warm. I feel for those who don’t. Pray that we don’t have a big power outage because with that many out south of us it might be a while before we get help.
How messed up of a church are you if one you have to have a armed security detail to protect worshippers and have people wanting to shoot up your church.
With gas prices coming down shouldn’t we see a similar drop in the grocery prices etc …. that increased because of increasing fuel costs ?
Grocery prices never seem to come down ken. :(
Mary:
How many laws must criminals ignore before you understand that laws restricting guns only restrict those who obey the laws?
How many laws did the shooter in Omaha break – and what difference did it make? How many laws did the church shooter break – and what difference did it make? How many laws did the Columbine shooters break – and what difference did it make?
No one is suggesting giving “free reign” to those who would do harm; on the contrary. On the contrary. But laws on the books, if obeyed, would do just that. Do you really think that another law would have prevented these tragedies? Let me put this bluntly, Mary: Criminals don’t obey laws. That’s why they’re criminals. If someone is intent on killing, another law to ignore is no barrier.
In contrast – how many times must citizens defend themselves before you acknowledge that citizens are capable of defending themselves; more important, are ENTITLED to defend themselves? How many states now have “shall issue” CC – 40+? Have the fears of the critics EVER been justified in practice? NO.
Look at just these two instances over the last few days. In Omaha, a CC holder apparantly could have had a shot, but was disarmed by an ill-conceived, even if well-intentioned law. Result: The shooter killed at will, until he killed himself. In the church shootings, a CC holder who volunteered to provide security (NOT a cop; there’s nothing magic, available only to cops, about training to use a firearm in self-defense) put an end to an assault and likely saved lives.
The difference could not be clearer.
Or I guess I could pose it as a question: Why do you hate our citizens, prefering them to be gunned down? Why do you hate those who would defend themselves – and perhaps you?
Some of you like to think of yourselves as the “reality-based” community (as much a self-fantasy as that may be). Here, however, your heads are firmly placed in the sand.
“And I did notice that the story says she was working AS a security guard — even if she was a volunteer… SO, she had a good reason to have a weapon…Not just an average ordinary CC type person there…”
Chad, VT: A distinction without a difference.
How messed up of a church are you if one you have to have a armed security detail to protect worshippers and have people wanting to shoot up your church.
Posted by: Tom Paine | December 10, 2007 at 02:20 PM______
Thom, You’re right, of course. The problem was the church gathering to worship. It’s their fault for provoking the victim-gunman. The woman who shot him should be arrested for murder and the martyred gunman should be hailed as a victim/hero. His family should sue the church and take everything they have.
Thom, Are you inhaling? And if so, what?
Mary; Is there perhaps a typo as to the number of gun deaths you quoted on your 1:10 post?
weren’t most of the victims in the Omaha shooting the employees in the store. most employees dont allow their workers to CC even if its allowed by law. Even GMC isn’t allowed to carry on the clock.
GMC, normally I’d agree with you. It may still be a distinction without a difference, but the following questions occur to me:
1) Absent her volunteering as a security guard, would she have had her weapon with her Sunday?
2) Absent the implementation of the security plan, how many security guards would there have been at the church, and would any have been where she was? (Note: it appears, from what I can glean from the story, all the security at the church is armed.)
3) Absent the implementation of the security plan, would the guards have been as alert to the potential, and prepared to act?
This is why I characterize the situation in Colorado as being different.
Note here: the answers to the three (really four) questions I post MAY (again may) have made a difference. I don’t have the answers to these from what is in the public arena. What I do know is that the woman was a volunteer; as a volunteer, and a CCW permit holder, she had her weapon with her; and she was able (from her post?) to drop the guy in the hallway after he entered, subsequent to shooting three in the parking lot (and killing two).
Not a diatribe against CCW permits; just my perspective that this situation was somewhat different than the “normal” situation.
To clarify: a “normal” situation would be, IMO, one where a CCW permit holder had his/her weapon with him/her; s/he happened to be in a position in the hall to stop the shooter. Not as a volunteer security guard, not on alert, just a parishoner who was lawfully carrying and able to carry out the training received when the opportunity presented itself.
GMC, I think you got your underwear in an uproar… THIS is what I said earlier >>>
“I somehow doubt that the shooter had hundreds of rounds of ammunition, but it sounds like the female security guard might have saved SOME lives…”
I acknowledged that the female CCW security person might have saved SOME lives…
ALL I was commenting on is that is not an ordinary situation for a CC person to be in… And I am not sure since she was acting in the capacity of a security person, if I would categorie her as an ordinary CC type person…
“Why do you hate those who would defend themselves – and perhaps you?”
Hero in waiting? I think I’ll be ok thanks.
I guss I am trying to figure out WHY a church needs to have armed security for Sunday services??
I guss I am trying to figure out WHY a church needs to have armed security for Sunday services??
Posted by: Chas. | December 10, 2007 at 02:54 PM
Well Chas it might be because a crazed gunman might decide on a cold day in December to come in with guns blazing and try to kill some of the worshipers.
Are you suggesting that the church is somehow at fault here?
I’ve never been convinced that CC would do that much good.
1. The shooter could get off several rounds before YOU the good guy could figure out what’s happening and where.
2. YOU would have to position yourself for a clear shot, so you don’t just do more harm than good. At the same time, YOU can’t get such a good position that YOU are fired upon and immobilized.
Meanwhile the shooter is firing away.
3. YOU finally pull the trigger, and unless everything was perfect, the shooter is still firing. Bullets don’t always do that much immediate damage.
Reagan for instance didn’t even know he was shot when he was hit millimeters from his heart.
4. Against all that, YOU have to make sure that your bullets don’t hit an innocent by-stander or ricocet and hit someone.
All and all, it’s not clear that a CC holder could do that much good in the short term.
Real life ain’t the movies. People don’t just go limp and unconscious when you hit them over the head with a flower vase, nor do they fall lifelessly to earth every time a bullet hits them.
Posted by: Chas: “I guss I am trying to figure out WHY a church needs to have armed security for Sunday services??”
Did you really ask that question in light of the fact a shooter entered the church and killed people?
What would be a cc holder’s liability if when they were carrying out the dead, they discovered one body had his bullet in it?
A normal situation would probably be when you had your wife and kids in tow, or visa versa. So, you would most likely react/not react with your weapon based on whether you’d put your family in more or less risk.
Anybody else see “Boogie Nights?”
There’s a scene where a robber holds up a cafe. Mr. HandGun owner sitting in a booth by the cashier pulls out his big ol’ hand cannon and starts firing. Robber fires back.
They both kill each other.
That sounds pretty true to life.
Are you suggesting that the church is somehow at fault here?
Posted by: ksgrm | December 10, 2007 at 02:58 PM
=========================
Now what kind of Kool Aid are you drinking?? I NEVER SAID ANYTHING ABUT THE CHURCH BEING AT FAULT!! Maybe you should work a little harder at not trying to be so blatantly ABSURD!! Geez!!
Too much Christmas cheer, eh??
good question phantom !!
Would a civilian be charged if he walks up to a QT, sees a gunman at the counter with weapon drawn, he hasn’t been seen and is in no immediate danger, so he shoots through the door and kills the gunman?
I saw on the news one of the church shootings resulted from turning someone away into the snowy cold. Wonder if a little more christian compassion couldn’t have avoided that one.
What would be a cc holder’s liability if when they were carrying out the dead, they discovered one body had his bullet in it?
Posted by: The Phantom | December 10, 2007 at 03:05 PM
___________
Phantom,
Since that’s never happen (and seems unlikely given empirical evidence), it would be speculation. Perhaps the barrister boys will enjoy debating that.
However, since it seems that, based on your prior posts on this subject, you’re speculating from a biased perspective anyway, allow me a question.1. If a gunman enters a public place shooting and immediately kills four people, and2. a CC persons engages him, ultimately killing both the shooter and one innocent bystander, and3. it is subsequently determined that the shooter had over 100 rounds of ammunition on his person and had placed devices around the premises that he intended to detonate, and4. it was clear that the shooter was prepared to kill dozens, if not 100 people,Do you think the CC person should or should not be liable for the death of the one innocent (who may or may not have survived the attack) andDo you think the CC person should have restrained from engaging the shooter to begin with.
Another question for the legal team…
If a police officer in the line of duty faced the situation described above and, indeed, shot an innocent, what is the liability of the engorcement agency and/or the officer? Is there a difference in liability for a licensed peace officer and a CC citizen?
I’m thinking more in line with a civil suit, as I doubt a prosecutor would bring charges.
I saw on the news one of the church shootings resulted from turning someone away into the snowy cold. Wonder if a little more christian compassion couldn’t have avoided that one.
Posted by: The Phantom | December 10, 2007 at 03:18 PM
___________
Or perhaps, Phantom, the turning away of a murderer saved countless other lives in the building. If it turns out the two shootings were linked, it seems reasonable to assume the WYAM shooter intended to kill everyone in the building (as he later tried to do at the church), but was unable to do so because of the discernment of the young staff. Discernment, which I note, far exceeds yours.
Evidently Phantom blames the WYAM staff not only their own deaths and injuries, but also for inciting the guy to kill others at the church later in the day.
Where do the libs come up with this stuff?
BTW, Phantom, the shooter, now identified, didn’t need somewhere to sleep as he lived nearby. He just needed someone to kill. And you would advocate providing him the opportunity, I guess?
Again I ask, where do they come up with this stuff? What is wrong the liberal mind?
You have a choice between defending yourself or becoming a victim.
Would you rather go to Court or go to a Pine box?
Tough choice.
I’ll leave the criminal analysis to GMC.
Civilly, the issue is whether the CCW permit holder acted as a reasonable person would given the same level of training and the same circumstances, if one is engaging in traditional negligence analysis.
As the firing of a weapon and hitting someone is a battery, the issue would be whether the shooter (the CCW permit holder) had a privilege to take the action s/he took.
No research, just off the top of my head, on the latter issue, defense of the life of the clerk (in the QT example) and the defense of the lives of the others (the public place example), I’d speculate that there would be no liability for battery (an intentional tort).
Whether the CCW permit holder was negligent would be a question of fact for the jury, or the judge in a civil trial without a jury. Thus, the CCW permit holder might or might not be found to be negligent, depending upon the evidence adduced.
The fact that the “bad guy” shooter had a lot of ammunition and might have shot others is speculation, and, IMO, would not be admissible evidence in a civil trial.
The LEO, in a civil matter, might well be held to a higher standard of care, given the additional training, etc., an LEO presumably has concerning use of a weapon, especially in a crowded public place. I can therefore see where an LEO might be held to be negligent in use of a firearm in such a situation where a “civilian” wouldn’t; I can also see where both might be held to be negligent; and I can see where neither would be held negligent. It all depends upon the facts.
Now if someone with a CC permit did NOT take any action, and several people were killed by this murderer, would there be civil liabilty for the permit holder’s failure to take action?
If I stood by and did nothing, while watching a baby crawl across the street, do I have any liability if I choose to do nothing and the baby is run over by a Mack truck?
Thanks, so I guess it could go either way for the QT cc guy as far as civilly. I know you can use deadly force as a civilian if your life is in immediate danger, I was also curious about when you aren’t in immediate danger but someone else is. That might or might not be similar to the volunteer in the church, but if she met up with him in the hallway I presume she was in danger in that instance.
Max, no liability upon you in either situation.
Max, to expand a bit; you, in the hypothetical situations you post, have no legal duty to intervene, thus no liability for failure to do so. If you decide to intervene in either situation, then (in the absence of law, either statutory or court decision to the contrary) you might be liable if your intervention injured someone that otherwise might not be injured, or worsened the injuries, etc.
I somehow doubt that the shooter had hundreds of rounds of ammunition
Posted by: Chas. | December 10, 2007 at 02:03 PM
__________
Wrong as usual, Chas.
http://www.cnn.com/2007/US/12/10/colorado.shootings/index.html
An earlier quote that I saw, which I now can’t find, said the shooter was equiped to kill over 100 people.
Now what kind of Kool Aid are you drinking?? I NEVER SAID ANYTHING ABUT THE CHURCH BEING AT FAULT!! Maybe you should work a little harder at not trying to be so blatantly ABSURD!! Geez!!
Too much Christmas cheer, eh??
Posted by: Chas. | December 10, 2007 at 03:15 PM
You ask why a church that has just been attacked and had people shot down WOULD need a security guard and I am being absurd. GEEZZZ!!!
Lay off the juice Chas.
Most states do have a “Good Samaratin” law don’t they, ie, you’re trying to help someone by first aid, and unintentionally cause injury.
Common tater CNN said that he had on a ammo belt with multiple clips. He did have 100s of bullets. Haven’t seen it in print either.
Thanks Vaughn.
I might minimize my legal liability by doing nothing, but I couldn’t live with my conscience if I didn’t try.
Meadowlark – it was on the front page. Why couldn’t you find it?
Kudos to the church for having a plan and security in place. Sad that this seems to be happening more.
Phantom, that’s the type of law to which I was referring. I don’t know if most states have such statutes. BTW, in some statutes, the application of the liability shield is limited to certain groups (medical professionals, e.g.) and certain situations.
ksgrm, I’m scratching my head a bit at your 3:45 pm post, responding to Chas. The first event happened in Denver, and about 12 hours earlier; the second event happened in Colorado Springs, some distance from Denver. Thus, while there was an armed attack, to use your words, on the New Life Church in Colorado Springs, there hadn’t been one before. So, are you saying that the need for a security guard was evident because the church was being attacked at that time, or because there had been the earlier incident in Denver?
Max, I understand your point.
My 3:28 post suggested that the young staff at Youth With A Mission had far greater discernment than Phantom demonstrated by the cheap shot at a Christian organization (Phantom: “Wonder if a little more christian compassion couldn’t have avoided that…”). We now know that shooter had sent threatening letters to YWAM. The staff members, two of whom sacrificed their lives, probably saved the lives of all others in the building. Indeed, they did have infinitely more wisdom and insight than Phantom.
I continue to be shocked at the contempt, anger–and sometimes even hatred–of anyone and anything Evangelical or Christian that is expressed on this blog. As I asked earlier, what is wrong with the liberal mind? Why do those who were shot, who happened to be Christian, somehow deserve what happened (Phantom suggested they possibly could have avoided their own murders by being more compassionate)? YWAM I’m confident does far more to show compassion around the world than Phantom or Tom Paine has ever even considered, yet they are treated with thinly veiled contempt. It’s really brazen of Phantom, who routinely bashes Christians, to suggest more Christian compassion be shown to someone. What does Phantom know of Christian compassion? It leaves one thinking they are somehow pleased that Christians were targets.
I’d put my local and world-wide “compassion” contributions of time and money up against Phantom’s and Tom Paine combined, and think they’d have a poor showing any day of the week. I think that would probably be true for most believing Christians. These are nothing but cheap shots by hypocrites.
VT what I said was because this has happened before in other cities – not where people died but where armed people have entered churches. It might surprise you to know that most large churches in Wichita hire armed security. This is because with a very large building and all doors unlocked during a service anyone could be in the church and be undetected by those in or conducting the service.
It really isn’t that unusual. Surprised you didn’t know that. As for Chas’ question. I thought it was an ill thought out question at best. Sorry if my response offended you.
BTW, VT, thanks for the info you posted.
ksgrm, your response didn’t offend, just confused. Thank you for the clarification.
Dum that would be when those mean old repub were listening to their phone calls to mid east countries or intercepting their emails to terrorists. Their individual freedoms were infringed then.
For those who wondered why the church had armed security in place:
“…the megachurch instituted security precautions after the shootings at the Denver area mission center…”http://www.cnn.com/2007/US/12/10/colorado.shootings/index.html
Also, as has been noted previously, churches have been targeted for attacks in the same way malls have. Many haved armed security as a reasonable measure to protect their people. About a month ago a Baptist church in Dallas was robbed by armed gunmen. In 1999 a gunman entered a Baptist church in Ft. Worth during an evening prayer meeting and killed about 8 people, as I recall.
Churches are under attack, not only on this Blog, but by others who use weapons other than words to assault them.
Thank you comment for straightening that out. I never dreamed those on this blog were not aware of the attacks. Many churches in our own town have had intruders captured inside the church. Usually stealing is their plan but who can be sure. Our church has armed security.
Megachurches=Megabucks!
Megachurches=Megabucks!
Posted by: The Phantom | December 10, 2007 at 04:47 PM
______
Is that another reason in your mind why they deserved to be shot, Phantom?
No but it explains armed guards.
I guess you don’t read much, Phantom. Try looking up thread and reading the rationale for the security. (You may want to retract your statement afterward… but I doubt it, given your other uncaring posts.)
Also, if I may be so bold, try removing the incredibly biased glasses through which you typically see things.
People are killed by a murderer and you want to use it as an opportunity to bash the church. Are you becoming as aware as the rest of us are about the hateful streak in you?
BTW, Phantom, you’ve made several hints through the day that suggested the shooting victims should have done things differently to avoid being shot by the murderer. One doesn’t have to read much into your posts to see that you have some feeling that those shot earned it or deserved because of the way they lived their faith. Just to be clear, and to help other Christians in the future avoid provoking their own murders, would you please provide a list of the reasons these people either deserved to be shot, or how they were somehow partially or fully responsible for their own shootings. We’d all be interested, I’m sure.
You ask why a church that has just been attacked and had people shot down WOULD need a security guard and I am being absurd. GEEZZZ!!!
Lay off the juice Chas.
Posted by: ksgrm | December 10, 2007 at 03:45 PM
===========================
Grndma, They had NOT yet been attacked when they had extra security on duty!! That other place was different from the Church where the security guard shot the perp… Geez… And you tell ME to lay off the juice?? And the two places are close to an hour apart??
Grm, the story line is that the church NORMALLY has armed security… THAT was what I was questioning… Geez, I really wish you would stop trying to SPIN every damned thing I type in here!!
They had NOT yet been attacked when they had extra security on duty!!
Posted by: Chas. | December 10, 2007 at 05:22 PM
______
New rationale for beefing up security: Wait until after you are attacked to be sure it’s needed.
You keep spinnning that fast, you gonna get dizzy… That might be comical, but, I wouldnt want to see anybody get hurt because of it…
You are missing the point TATER… dumbkopf — WHY does a CHURCH need armed security??
THAT is the question!! Not THIS one in particular… ANY Church… GET IT?? GEEZ!!
I have NOT questioned the shooting by the security guard… What is the matter with you people??? Parnoid, or what??
Read, Chas.
As usual, your posts are uninformed. This has been covered fairly well upthread, and your posts look a little dumkupfish themselves in light of the earlier info.
Chas sorry you have selective reading disorder. It can be cured I think. A cure would save you from all of that yellow stuff that keeps getting on your face.
Well, I guess maybe since it was the Church founded by Ted Haggard, they found themselves thinking they needed some kind of armed security… Seems like this could be an even bigger mess than it looks like on the surface!!
Everybody remember Ted Haggard??
Keep up with the ad hominems, and we will all know you for who you really, Ksgrm!! Just keep up your usual crap!! You still havent answered my initial question!! I had to go find a possible answer for myself!!
What is the matter with you people???
Posted by: Chas. | December 10, 2007 at 05:26 PM
When you have to question why all of the ‘people’ around you have a problem maybe you should re-evaluate the problem.
By the way as a minister is a metro town I am surprised that you aren’t aware of the problem of have open churches with no security. As hard as it is to believe there are those in society who if given the chance would harm church goers.
Chas don’t try to intimidate me because you don’t bother to read posts other than your own. Why does it surprise that when you make idiotic remarks you might get bact sarcastic answers?
Chas what ‘possible answer’ did you find for yourself?
Ummmm I just posted it earlier… while you were taking part in more of your vitriolic garbage, as usual…
Ksgrm, you are just making your dizziness worse… I have served a number of congregations where we used security during certain meetings, like evening meetings, on dark nights — especially in urban areas… but, not for Sunday Services!!
And once again… THAT WAS MY ORIGINAL QUESTION!!! Who did you say couldnt read??
There is no problem with Churches having a security guard. It’s probably not unusual considering the number of church burnings, robberies, burgularies, shootings and bombings there have been.
Well, I guess maybe since it was the Church founded by Ted Haggard, they found themselves thinking they needed some kind of armed security… Seems like this could be an even bigger mess than it looks like on the surface!!
Everybody remember Ted Haggard??
Posted by: Chas. | December 10, 2007 at 05:34 PM
_________
Chas, I’m a bit confused by your post, and having a bit of difficulty following your “logic.” Please help me understand how Ted Haggard has something to do with security in the church. Are you suggesting that people want to come in and kill people because Haggard was formerly on staff there?
There could have been some nut case who didnt know Haggard was gone from there… and came gunning for HIM…. You know, some guy he made a drug deal with, or “something”
BTW, the congregations I am affiliated with do not allow any weapons inside the building.. none.. not even an honor guard.. weapons must remain outside the sanctuary at all times..
Tater — Ummmm Haggard wasnt just “on staff” there… HE founded the church — HE was the #1 honcho there… till they kicked him out recently!!
Chas,
You mentioned that you have, at times, had security on your premises. Was this because you feared a former drug connection of yours was going to come gunning for you?
Wasn’t enough carnage for you Chas?
According to the police:
“The gunman “had enough ammunition on him to cause a lot of damage,” Boyd told reporters outside the church. At a news conference Monday, law enforcement officials said Murray had an assault rifle, two handguns and 1,000 rounds of ammunition in a backpack when he was shot.”
No Tater — but if you know anything about Haggard, you might know why I would say that!!
Otherwise, that comment is, and will be noted as intentionally libelous on your part!!
BTW, the congregations I am affiliated with do not allow any weapons inside the building.. none.. not even an honor guard.. weapons must remain outside the sanctuary at all times..
Posted by: Chas. | December 10, 2007 at 05:50 PM
_______
That should certainly prevent anyone from ever coming in with a weapon, then.
KANSAS — WAKE UP — I did NOT question the fact that the security person SHOT the perp!!
What is it that you keep missing here?? I have no basic problem that she shot him!! IS THAT SIMPLE ENOUGH FOR YOU TO GRASP??
I think I have said that about 3-4 times so far… I am NOT going to say it again!!
Does anyone know how to spell, “Blllltt”? I’d like to respond to Chas, but I can’t find it in the dictionary.
Tater — I’ve never had that problem in 30+ years so far!!
Then why are you arguing chas?
Isn’t it simple enough to say that people died and it was a tragedy and leave at that?
Or do you feel compelled to exercise your choice of targeted religious bigotry?
Tater — I’ve never had that problem in 30+ years so far!!
Posted by: Chas. | December 10, 2007 at 05:56 PM
_______
Thank God, then Chas. You do believe enough to thank Him, don’t you? Or “her”, or whatever you conceive to be god?
MILWAUKEE — Squirrels are being blamed for lighting problems in Milwaukee’s Red Arrow Park.
The city said they thought they would save money by using energy-efficient LED lights on its Christmas tree. But instead, they have to keep replacing the lights, making things more costly.
Employees of the Department of Public Works said that squirrels are chewing the strings of the lights, causing them to short out.
“It definitely caught us by surprise,” said Cecilia Gilbert. “We had no idea that this would be a problem.”
Workers said that squirrels have been a problem since they made the switch to LED lights. The older lights had a stronger electrical current, which deterred chewing.
“When they bit into them, they got a little bit of a shock, and they left them alone,” said Gilbert.
The city has tried several things to stop the squirrels, but said they have had no luck.
“The deer repellent didn’t work on squirrels,” said worker Dave McKeithan. “But I don’t think they make squirrel repellent. They’re too smart.”
The city said they are trying to find humane ways to scare off the squirrels.
Always Tater — Now get bcak to your Tots before they get cold!! LOL
I will not – personally – go into a Church as a visitor, if there are armed guards outside. I cant figure out if they want to keep people out, or keep people IN!
LOL
Now, thats funny, Ken!! LOL I wonder if that would work for my back patio?? I think I have about 2 dozen squirrels out there at times!!
FYI — according to Fox news police released a report saying the shooter at the church in Co Sprngs hated christians –
sounds like a good reason to have armed security
Well, there are certainly many more ways other than shooting up a church to express those sorts of feelings, Ken…
Chas I doubt you would know they were armed —
chas I was just making the report — was not expressing my feelings
But Ken, the guy didnt exactly telegraph his intentions either!!
And as was pointed out earlier, the attack earlier was at least 12 hours before, and quite some distance away…
I dont recall ever seeing armed security where weapons were hidden… except for Secret Service, or plain clothes detectives…
Well Chas As you are probably aware — hate is a pretty powerful emotion — can easily cloud a persons thoughts and cause irrational thinking — would be interesting to see why he hated them —
Heh
They don’t gotta arm a church to keep ME out.
OK – how would you know if they were armed or not if they were concealing weapons — I would think churches etc in respect to their parishoners would ask the security folks to dress as parishoners might and not have weapons exposed
I saw on the news one of the church shootings resulted from turning someone away into the snowy cold. Wonder if a little more Christian compassion couldn’t have avoided that one.
He had been discharged from the program two years earlier so there was a history. Cold day or not, farther detail should be coming out later.
Ann, shall we have it both ways? First there is a prediction that there will be a blood bath from all these CC shooting up the street at every traffic accident. Now the complain that a cc owner did not shoot? Granted some people think having a weapon is a magic symbol. That simply showing you are armed will solve and force another to bow down and ask not to be killed. A weapon is an unintelligent tool, it does not act on its own.
The Police as trained as they are, know that for a fact and accept that simply because they have a weapon and the training. That does not mean that the world will go the way they want. You take a position of cover and aim. No standing toe to toe, no making you a target, you aim for center mass and give a verbal challenge. If the suspect turns and fires or continues the actions that caused you to challenge in the first place. You shoot to kill no shoot to wound, no try to shoot the weapon out of their hand. YOU KILL and then pray to God for forgiveness.
The news just showed an interview with the Church guard and that is what she did. She is among a number of Church members that are a voluntarily security force. Sadly just the fact that a place is known to be a place where people meet. Can draw others to try to be become famous by killing many people. There is a risk you take by you just going to the store, thankfully it is a small one.
“ Now if someone with a CC permit did NOT take any action, and several people were killed by this murderer, would there be civil liabilty for the permit holder’s failure to take action?”
Max good question, it is law that if one is trained and does not give aid they can be libel.BUT as of yet I do not think this question about CC has came up. There has been more concern about the opposite happening. They will possibly be held to the same standard as a LEO.A cop is more libel for his shots then the criminal. In Police training, if you find yourself in a situation where you are not known to be a LEO. And the situation is not an immediate danger to yourself or others. You take no actions as to do so may ratchet up the situation. A robber is after the money and most are not wanting to kill for the money unless they are forced to. I would never advise anyone with a CC to take action if there is not a clear and present danger.But if the suspect is shooting, hide behind something, aim, and shoot to kill. That simple….
Chas your limited experience is underwhelming. You have gone in so many directions that I can’t keep up.
“I have served a number of congregations where we used security during certain meetings, like evening meetings, on dark nights — especially in urban areas… but, not for Sunday Services!!”
Did you give them flyswatters?
Ted Haggard is yours to judge because?
Christian should die because you wouldn’t go in a church with armed guards?
Do I need to go on and show how your words have told on you?
I dont recall ever seeing armed security where weapons were hidden… except for Secret Service, or plain clothes detectives…
Posted by: Chas. | December 10, 2007 at 06:13 PM
Have you flown lately?
JR
I know what you mean — used to be a regular church going Catholic — altar boy til 18 — over the years I learned they were betraying parishoners trust and not practicing what they preach —- can see a lot of the same in many Christian religions.
Mom called me and my older brother heathens because we were not regular churchgoers — enjoyed taking her to Saturday masses used to write down the hymnal numbers and use em to play the lottery — made that joke once with mom — she elbowed me rather stiffly, but was laughing so hard she was crying (well I think that was the reason- Hah )
Stop spinning Grannie!! I didnt say ANY of what you just posted!! Cant you keep words straight??? Good grief!! If you cant get it right, just shut up!!
Grannie, just stop making up garbage, and then trying to use what YOU post against ME!!
What in the heck does ME not going into a church with armed guards, have to do with anybody being killed??? Answer: NOTHING AT ALL!!
Chas tell me you weren’t judging Haggard. Also tell me you didn’t say you go in a church that had armed security.
I have told you before you are like shooting fish in a barrel. Sorry about that. Gotta go. Dinner time.
I will NOT attend a church with armed security… period!!
And your problem with that is???
Typical of Grannie… Hit and run!! Happens frequently!!
And no, I am not judging Haggard… He admitted to much of his own problems himself!! Not to mention others who outted him!!
AND, his church dismissed him!!
Sort of like what should happen to Paul Morrison?? Ya know??
There could have been some nut case who didnt know Haggard was gone from there… and came gunning for HIM…. You know, some guy he made a drug deal with, or “something”
Posted by: Chas. | December 10, 2007 at 05:47 PM
Was any of this tried in a court of law or just ‘he said/he said’. Judge not that you be….
And Chas it isn’t polite to tell people to shutup. You really should work on the anger control.
And Chas were you lying when you said you went to a church that had security for night meeting or when you said you wouldn’t go into a church that had armed security.
Just curious. Gotta go.
Neither time, Granny!! WRONG again you flaky female!! I said we used armed security for certain night meetings, but NOT for Sunday services… And I said I will not attend a Church as a “VISITOR” if there are armed guards outside!!
Now, put on your reading glasses, and stop your damned spinning, and then shut up!!
What you post isnt very polite either, wench!!
BTW, granny, that means I wouldnt visit at your church… that should thrill you to no end!! LOL
fun xmas site — put your face on dancing elves
http://www.elfyourself.com
Just a reminder that your property and IRS taxes are coming due soon.
Tax his land,Tax his bed,Tax the tableAt which he’s fed.
Tax his tractor,Tax his mule,Teach him taxesAre the rule.
Tax his cow,Tax his goat,Tax his pants,Tax his coat.
Tax his ties,Tax his shirt,Tax his work,Tax his dirt.
Tax his tobacco,T ax his drink,Tax him if heTries to think.
Tax his cigars,Tax his beers,If he cries, thenTax his tears.
Tax his car,Tax his gas,Find other waysTo tax his ass.
Tax all he hasThen let him knowThat you won’t be doneTill he has no dough.
When he screams and hollers,Then tax him some more,Tax him tillHe’s good and sore.
Then tax his coffin,Tax his grave,Tax the sod inWhich he’s laid.
Put these wordsupon his tomb,’ Taxes drove me to my doom…’
When he’s gone,Do not relax,Its time to applyThe inheritance tax.
Accounts Receivable TaxBuilding Permit TaxCDL license TaxCigarette TaxCorporate Income TaxDog License TaxExcise TaxesFederal Income TaxFederal Unemployment Tax (FUTA)Fishing License TaxFood License TaxFuel Permit TaxGasoline Tax (42 cents per gallon)Gross Receipts TaxHunting License TaxInheritance TaxInventory TaxIRS Interest Charges IRS Penalties (tax on top of tax)Liquor TaxLuxury TaxesMarriage License TaxMedicare TaxPersonal Property TaxProperty TaxReal Estate TaxService Charge TaxSocial Security TaxRoad Usage TaxSales TaxRecreational Vehicle TaxSchool TaxState Income TaxState Unemployment Tax (SUTA)Telephone Federal Excise TaxTeleph one Federal Universal Service Fee TaxTelephone Federal, State and Local Surcharge TaxesTelephone Minimum Usage Surcharge TaxTelephone Recurring and Non-recurring Charges TaxTelephone State and Local TaxTelephone Usage Charge TaxUtility TaxesVehicle License Registration TaxVehicle Sales TaxWatercraft Registration TaxWell Permit TaxWorkers Compensation Tax
STILL THINK THIS IS FUNNY?
Not one of these taxes existed 100 years ago, and our nation wasthe most prosperous in the world.We had absolutely no national debt, had the largest middle classin the world, and Mom stayed home to raise the kids.
What the hell happened? Can you spell ‘politicians!’
And I still have to ‘press 1′for English.
About the shooter:
“The gunman was identified as Matthew Murray, 24, who was home-schooled in what a friend said was a deeply religious Christian household.”
http://www.kansas.com/wireupdates/story/251417.html
“Free” trade is a lot of what happened. That and the attitude that “greed is good” and that he who dies with the most stuff wins.
Elf
what happened is we applied democracy to capitalism and came up with freedom to be greedy
Wow.
I see this discussion has degraded to whether a church ought to have security. Folks, isn’t that very much beside the point???
Here, a citizen with a CC permit, who volunteered to serve as security, apparantly made a difference. Citizens CAN make a difference; not in every circumstance, of course, and what might have happened in X scenario absent somewhere is of course often speculation. But here, at least, a citizen made a difference. In Omaha, a citizen who might have made a difference was barred from doing so, even had he chosen to do so.
Doesn’t that mean something?
And then there was this little bit of absurdity:—–”"Why do you hate those who would defend themselves – and perhaps you?”
Hero in waiting? I think I’ll be ok thanks.
Posted by: J R | December 10, 2007 at 02:52 PM “—
JR, were you in that church at the time, I think “thank you” is the appropriate response.
No it is not.
I don’t care to be caught in a crossfire.
The best form of self defense is getting outta the way.
I see posts here that make me think there are folks just waiting for their moment to be a hero. I don’t want to run into one of them while I’m trying to get away from the danger.
The shooter was raised in a homw schooled and deeply religious environment,what else do we know about him. Obviously was found of guns. Had a brother attending Oral Roberts.Sounds like a lot of Republicans’ dream life.
found=fond
Phantom,
I asked you earlier what you would suggest Christians do to avoid provoking this kind of attack in the future. Did you have any suggestions?
http://blogs.kansas.com/weblog/2007/12/open-thread-121.html#comment-93020492
Also, since you seem interested in the religious background of shooters, would you tell us the religious background of the mall shooter in Omaha, the VT shooter, and the mall shooter last spring? What point are you trying to make, exactly?
Just reviewing what was made public about the shooter.
First report from undisclosed LEO said the shooter was a “Christian Hater”.
neighbor..no, there was no typo in my 1:10 post..look at the CDC web site if you want to know the figures.I guess because I don’t think an AK-47 should be legal to own, I really hate people and want them to die. Yeah, that makes a lot of sense.I just love the way the gun nuts twist what I say in their stupid rants…what a bunch of dorks.So, GMC, why do you hate children so much? If you think that the right to own a gun outweighs the fact that so many children in this country die from guns..then you must rerally hate children, right? Just trying to use your logic a bit there, *sshole
just heard about this — halli / kbr are already tap dancing around this
Victim: Gang-Rape Cover-Up by U.S., Halliburton/KBR
http://abcnews.go.com/Blotter/story?id=3977702&page=1
“I mean, talk about a direct IV into the vein of your support. It’s a very efficient way to communicate. They regurgitate exactly and put up on their blogs what you said to them. It is something that we’ve cultivated and have really tried to put quite a bit of focus on.”
– White House spokeswhore Dan Bartlett, bragging about right-wing bloggers,
Monkey Hawk
All together now — worse administration ever !!!!!!!!!!
One has to wonder how MUCH $$$ focus, eh, M H??? LOL
Mary, I hear ya… They’re all getting terribly dizzy here lately.. all that spinning!!
Haliburton was a favorite contractor of the Clinton administration as well. Clinton even awarded an extra contract to Haliburton when they had gotten beat out in a competitive bid.
Check it out if you don’t believe me, Clinton’s favorite contractor for the Defense Department was Haliburton.
Mary – you’re missing the point; perhaps purposely. We’re talking past each other, and will never agree.
If you could, magically, abolish all firearms, I might endorse such an action.
But you can’t. Ever. The genie is out of the bottle, and it won’t go back in. Bans are destined to fail. Period. Moreover, again, owning a firearm is constitutionally protected. In addition, there is no political will to do what you propose, even among the rank and file democrats, no matter what the wishing of the Shumer and Feinsteins of the party.
That’s the reality we have. We have to deal in the reality we have.
Rep. Jim McDermott’s long-running legal dispute with a top House Republican is almost over, but his financial woes may be just beginning.
The Washington Democrat is bracing for a federal District Court to hit him with a bill for more than $800,000 in damages and attorneys’ fees — a tab McDermott says he can’t afford right now.
“We have some money to raise,” McDermott said, acknowledging that he does not have enough in either his re-election campaign fund or a separate legal trust to pay the expected bill.
The U.S. Supreme Court last week declined to hear McDermott’s appeal of a federal appeals court ruling that the lawmaker was liable for leaking to reporters a tape-recording of a cell phone conversation among Rep. John Boehner, R-Ohio, and other Republican leaders discussing an ethics investigation of former House Speaker Newt Gingrich.
The U.S. District Court for the District of Columbia previously ordered McDermott to pay Boehner $10,000 in statutory damages, $50,000 in punitive damages and unspecified attorneys’ fees. The court is expected to soon decide the final attorneys’ fees, expected to total around $800,000.
Quarterly reports filed by the legal trust the congressman set up in October 2000 show that McDermott has roughly $10,000 left in that account to pay his legal bills. Since the legal trust’s creation, it has reported taking in $526,907 from contributors, many of whom live in the congressman’s Seattle-area district. In the meantime, it has spent $517,809 of those donations on McDermott’s D.C.-based lawyers, fundraising activities and a Web site designed to pull in more contributions.
More than $350,000 has gone to the law firm of Kirkland and Ellis, which represented McDermott through the legal battles that took him to the Supreme Court twice.
http://michellemalkin.com/2007/12/10/dirty-democrat-files-jim-mcdermott-drums-up-cashfor-illegal-eavesdroppingleaked-tape-case/
mary: Given we are only 1/10th of America in population experiencing about 250-300 murders annually nationwide, your stats. sort of made me sit up and take notice. I thought you added one too many zeros. Your right it seems ie., Toronto usually has 50-80 murders a year and Chicago with the same size population about 500-600 anually.
Pro-lifers of the Missionaries to the Pre-born organization while holding graphic signs were attacked by a man wielding a club during a protest at a Hillary Clinton campaign stop in Fort Madison, Iowa, on Friday, yet responding police threatened to arrest the pro-lifers, including Dan Holman, who was struck with a club by violent pro-abortion attacker Jim Mitchell, if they did not immediately leave the public sidewalk.Police said the pro-life victims posed a traffic hazard, and were therefore not entitled to free speech on a public sidewalk.- – -
MO Secretary of State Robin Carnahan approved an initiative petition that seeks to ban most abortions in Missouri. Petitioners will need to collect over 86,000 signatures. If the petition places the proposal on the ballot, and voters pass it, an abortionist quack would first have to conduct a series of required evaluations, including those dealing with “documentedemotional, psychological, physical, situational, anddemographic” factors, prior to committing an abortion.The proposal requires a 48-hour waiting period for a mother whose life is determined to be endangered, and contains no exceptions for rape or incest.Missouri pro-lifers may be just feisty enough to thumb their noses at leftist, activist, baby-hating federal judges who attempt to interfere with their newabortion ban.
This some what amusing saw it on the history channel
Pres H W Bush was nicknamed “Rubbers” by his colleagues in Congress when he was a Congressman because of his legislation to provide birth contol to low income women — I knew there was a reason i voted for him twice
But, Kansas, was Dick Cheney running Haliburton when that contract was awarded? And you did say there was bidding involved, right? Just wondering… It could be that Haliburton is more powerful than political parties in this country??
It could be that Haliburton is more powerful than political parties in this country??
Posted by: Chas. | December 10, 2007 at 09:30 PM
That I cannot dispute. When I was stationed in Texas, Haliburton was the big dog of construction and no one dared move an inch on a military base without consulting Haliburton.
Multi-National Corporate Giants like Haliburton have tentacles in many places.
Is tonight the night you debate your stand parkay?
Or is this just another drive by?
Your side is losing support not gaining it because of people like you.
That I cannot dispute. When I was stationed in Texas, Haliburton was the big dog of construction and no one dared move an inch on a military base without consulting Haliburton.
Multi-National Corporate Giants like Haliburton have tentacles in many places.
just looked at intellicast looks like most of the precip is gonna miss ICT — no rain here in Mulvane now
Mary cannot provide a credible link showing that her statement regarding the number of children murdered with guns is 5,000 per year.
She continues this lie, she has posted this several times in the past, and it is not true.
Put up or shut up Mary.
You’re lies only weaken your goal to ban guns, repeal the 2nd Amendment, and make American individuals defenseless.
Channel 12 reports Wichita schools closed tomorrow.
rah.
John Lott said it best:
People know the list: Virginia Tech saw 32 murdered earlier this year; the Columbine High School shooting left 13 murdered in 1999; Luby’s Cafeteria in Killeen, Texas, had 23 who were fatally shot by a deranged man in 1991; and a McDonald’s in Southern California had 21 people shot dead by an unemployed security guard in 1984.
All these attacks — indeed, all attacks involving more than a small number of people being killed — happened in gun-free zones.
In recent years, similar attacks have occurred across the world, including in Australia, France, Germany and Britain. Do all these countries lack enough gun-control laws? Hardly. The reverse is more accurate.
The law-abiding, not criminals, are obeying the rules. Disarming the victims simply means that the killers have less to fear. As Wednesday’s attack demonstrated yet again, police are important, but they almost always arrive at the crime scene after the crime has occurred.
The longer it takes for someone to arrive on the scene with a gun, the more people who will be harmed by such an attack.
Most people understand that guns deter criminals. If a killer were stalking your family, would you feel safer putting a sign out front announcing, “This Home Is a Gun-Free Zone”? But that is what the Westroads Mall did.
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,315563,00.html
Max?
You’re just itching for the opportunity to shoot someone aren’t you?
“Now if someone with a CC permit did NOT take any action, and several people were killed by this murderer, would there be civil liabilty for the permit holder’s failure to take action?”
You are LOOKING for an excuse to open fire.
I’m going to be honest here Max. I respect you in some ways. But I think you need to think VERY carefully about carrying a gun. You are TOO ready to use it.
Consider the context JR.
Vaughn made the argument that there may be civil liability if a permit holder took action and shot a bystander.
I simply took another view and questioned the liability of someone who did NOT take action, but could have.
Read up for the answers.
JR, bet you are jumpin up and down because you don’t have school tomorrow!
What if:
Omaha Mall Shooter Stopped by Armed Shoppers [What-if satire from Scott Ott]
http://209.157.64.200/focus/f-news/1936149/posts
Max
I’m not trying to take away your guns (hah as if I could) I just want to point out that others in the “research world” find issues with his surveys and methods
http://timlambert.org/lott/
What I never see in conjunction with gun statistics is how much impact on lowering crime are things like more police, neighborhood watches, better crime fighting methods better equipment –
… I have yet to figure out why those who have a cc permit let the world know they do — kind of defeats the purpose of the concealed thing ……. you will never know if I have a permit until after I shoot some one –
My kid doesn’t have school tomorrow.
Oh and Max? You might want to better acquaint yourself with “darwin” aka “kansas”.
He was talking of shooting motorists the other day. He also threatened to shoot me.
Max I don’t want guns banned.
But don’t you see? When you post here as you do, you feed hysteria.
I don’t walk about with a weapon. I don’t live in the best of neighborhoods. I don’t feel like I need a gun on me.
There is a post you missed Max because you weren’t here yet. A pal of mine wrote it.
It was about what it means to shoot someone. It was by someone who had shot someone.
Cool it with the paranoia Max. You only hurt your own cause.
I’ll leave it this way.
These shootings, they are happening more and more.
Even so, they are rare.
Shouldn’t we think about them as opposed to reacting to them?
The Omaha shooter, he gained ready access to a weapon from a family member. Even though many knew he was troubled. The shooter I mean. Shouldn’t we think about and address that?
There are two reactionary paths here. I’m in favor of neither of them.
One is to restrict and ban guns.
The other is to put more guns in more hands.
Max? If you hear shooting, and go towards the gunfire with gun drawn?
What do you do when you run into Heckler? HE has a gun too.
If you shoot him by mistake, can you live with yourself?
Oh and Max? You might want to better acquaint yourself with “darwin” aka “kansas”.
He was talking of shooting motorists the other day. He also threatened to shoot me.
Posted by: J R | December 10, 2007 at 10:54 PM
Tara already chided you on being ridiculous about that comment J R.
I have no idea who the “darwin” poster is and I never ever stated I would shoot anyone on this blog.
If you Libs would for once stop lying and stop attacking posters on this blog, we might get along and discuss topics.
I know you get lonely for company and attention J R, but no sense in creating lies to get attention.
I wanted to shoot the tires out many a time on those reckless people.
Posted by: Kansas | December 04, 2007 at 09:48 AM
Wanna play “kansas”?
I’m game and I’m not afraid of you.
Deal is?
I KNOW who you are.
The editors do too.
And that’s nothing to do with me by the way. You whined to them to let you back in after they banned you.
“I know you get lonely for company and attention J R, but no sense in creating lies to get attention.”Posted by: Kansas
Please take your own advice.
So, you dont like it when somebody lies about you, eh Kansas?? You suppose you might remember that about others while you are at it?? Hmmm????
Kansas,
After you explain why you posted that you wanted to “shoot the tires out many a time” re people driving 85 mph during rush hour,
http://blogs.kansas.com/weblog/2007/12/it-is-safer-out.html#comment-92317170
please defend your false claims on the “Gore warning, challenge on climate” thread.
Well, the hour is late…
Good night; Good luck; God bless; whatever you conceive God to be!!
Blessings all!!
MERRY XRMAS!!!
“The implied threat in the 9:48 post should be taken very seriously.
In the event of any shooting in the vicinity of Kellogg, I recommend the Eagle notify the police of the identity of the 9:48 poster. They might want to notify them as to the threat.”
This is the most retarded post I’ve ever had the misfortune to read.
Also, I want to smack people on airplanes who take up all the elbow room. Welp, better report me as a terrorist threat.
Posted by: Tara | December 04, 2007 at 12:54 PM
Is there any local official that can look you in the eye anymore?
These illegal’s are here illegaly. the officials don’t do a thing , are they breaking the law for looking the other way?Warning official’s elections will be coming soon..we shall remember you !!
Here’s another article explaining the security at New Life church in Colorado. Some naively questioned why a church needed security. Between Phantom and Tom Paine, several posts revealed an ugly streak of contempt and/or hatred for Christian churches and/or organizations. In light of their posts, I found a quote from a quote from one of the church security ppl revealing: “Even back then we had people undercover in the congregation who were armed,” Dodd said. “It was a big church at the time, it was Christian, and some people really hate that stuff.” Now I guess we know that there are those like that in Wichita, too.
http://www.whec.com/article/stories/S280995.shtml?cat=10036
Whip up them Taters, and spin em around some more, till you get it just the way you want it!! LOL Helpless and hopeless!!
Chas,
How many times, on just this thread today, was it demonstrated that you (typically) ran off your mouth without any knowledge, facts or evidence? You’ve lost so much credibility just over the last week that you are basically just a caricature. Count back up through the posts and threads just today and see where you were rebutted and proved wrong. I think all of those were just because you posted your half-baked, unsubstantiated, arrogant opinions as fact. If you’d like, I can gather all those little embarrassments for you and post them, with links, here. And if you shoot your mouth off again, I’ll be glad to do it tonight. Before you “leave” again. And I’d be happy to post them tomorrow, too.
Gee, Tater, I dont know that I have been proven wrong about anything… been disagreed with… but hardly proven Wrong… Guess that makes you Wrong for not being able to tell the difference!! Disagreement is not WRONG, you nincompoop!!
The lay security guard was a previous cop, made some statement about it was just her, God, and the gunman.
The Christians were to blame for their own shooting. According to the shooter, that is…
Murray wrote, “I’m coming for EVERYONE soon and I WILL be armed to the @#%$ teeth and I WILL shoot to kill. …God, I can’t wait till I can kill you people. Feel no remorse, no sense of shame, I don’t care if I live or die in the shoot-out. All I want to do is kill and injure as many of you … as I can especially Christians who are to blame for most of the problems in the world.”
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,316387,00.html
That same sentiment was hinted at by a couple of posters on this Blog.
If he’d not been so indoctrinated, only to find himself outcast, do you think he’d have been so bitter?
Last I saw, it looks like the shooter, shot himself.
What kind of church kicks a kid out of a youth program because he has health problems?
The kind of church that needs security I guess.
If he’d not been so indoctrinated, only to find himself outcast, do you think he’d have been so bitter?
Posted by: The Phantom | December 11, 2007 at 09:16 AM________
Phantom,
You continue to blame the victims for their shooting. I asked you several times yesterday, and now again today, for you to directly state if the dead people are responsible for provoking the shooter. You won’t directly answer the question, and now you post this. Phantom, are you familiar the website that the shooter used to post his Christian-hating rants? Do you post there? Should we be concerned about you, Phantom? What should the victims have done so that this guy wouldn’t have wanted to kill them?
http://blogs.kansas.com/weblog/2007/12/open-thread-121.html#comment-93020492
http://blogs.kansas.com/weblog/2007/12/open-thread-121.html#comment-93008314
http://blogs.kansas.com/weblog/2007/12/open-thread-121.html#comment-93012932
And one more question: Do you think the voices he heard in his head had anything to do with the shooting?
What kind of church kicks a kid out of a youth program because he has health problems?
Posted by: J R | December 11, 2007 at 09:31 AM___________
JR,
YWAM is not a church. It is a Christian mission organization. The shooter had mental problems. Possibly more severe than yours, is my guess. He heard voices. He used a Christmas program to insert very dark songs that had nothing to do with anything else. You don’t send people with mental illness on exhausting overseas trips. (Can you imagine the liability of an organization that knowing sent out someone that was mentally ill? Had they sent him and he had a psychotic break on a mission trip, you would have blamed them for that, too.) JR, something’s wrong with you, and I’m guessing you probably wouldn’t make the cut, either. But because you have an agenda to bash “the church” or anything Christian, any sick, cheap shot you can come up with is fair game to you. For some reason, you believe your perverted assertions discredit or harm the church. They merely expose you.
“I can’t take this meaningless existence anymore”-Omaha shooter
“[I] Feel no remorse, no sense of shame, I don’t care if I live or die”-Colorado shooter
What would an atheist evolutionist that blames religion for all the world’s problems say to explain these two shootings?
These two gunman did not posess the survival mechanism inherent in evolution and they were not trying to get into heaven for doing this.
So Why?==================================”The universe that we observe has precisely the properties we should expect if there is, at bottom, no design, no purpose, no evil, no good, nothing but pitiless indifference.”
– Richard Dawkins, “God’s Utility Function,” published in Scientific American (November, 1995), p. 85==================================
Don’t blame it on the Christians. Perhaps look at the philosophy which preaches that there is no meaning in life and we are all soulless, haphazardly evolved beings.
Excellent point, rfl.
If we came from nothing, and we’re headed toward nothing, what possible difference could anything in between make? In that kind of system, any set of morals or ethics is completely artificial, based on the selfish motive of whoever is suggesting them at the time. Anyone can change them at any time based on their perspective because there is no ultimate basis or accountability for anything. Do whatever you want–even murder. What difference does it make?
Comment Tater, I think you missed a couple. I think these should be called – Chasisms.
Well, there are certainly many more ways other than shooting up a church to express those sorts of feelings, Ken…Posted by: Chas. | December 10, 2007 at 06:10 PM
- Really?
——————————————————————–
But Ken, the guy didnt exactly telegraph his intentions either!!And as was pointed out earlier, the attack earlier was at least 12 hours before, and quite some distance away…Posted by: Chas. | December 10, 2007 at 06:12 PM
- The two shootings were a whopping 80 miles apart. Ya think 12 hours is enough time to travel 80 miles?
- Oh, and how many mass murderers telegraph their intentions? “Say Everyone! (Waving weapon around) Guess what I’m gonna do!”
——————————————————————–
I dont recall ever seeing armed security where weapons were hidden… except for Secret Service, or plain clothes detectives…
Posted by: Chas. | December 10, 2007 at 06:13 PM
- How would you SEE the weapons if they were HIDDEN?
Most of the time you won’t see Secret Service as they are taught to be stealthy. I remember a visit from Clinton, some Sheriff told me to get out the car I was sitting in because I had to be seen. Evidently, even though trapped in a parking lot, I could not sit in the car while the motorcade was passing by.
Just talked with my son who now lives in Virginia but until a few months ago lived in Colorado Springs. The church had been alerted about the shooting at YMAM and just that morning got in the armed security.
Also he reminded me about an episode that happened at a Salem, Oregon church he and his family attended while working in Portland. This happened after they left but they still had many friends there who described what happened.
“Man Starts Fire in Salem Oregon Church Amid Congregation of Several HundredSalem-News.com
Investigators are on scene trying to determine exactly what happened.
Salem-News.com(SALEM) – A man is in custody tonight for starting a fire inside the People’s Church on Lancaster Drive in Salem, while several hundred people were inside the building.
Marion County Sheriff’s Office Spokesman Kevin Rau says the incident started around 7:30 PM. The suspect is accused of hijacking a local yellow cab and placing a knife to the throat of the taxi driver.
Rau says the man forced the cabbie to take him to The People’s Church on Lancaster Drive NE. Once at that location, the man is alleged to have entered the church with some type of flammable liquid. That’s when the fire started.
One person who contacted Salem-News.com after the incident said a person “had entered the church during their evening service and had poured gasoline on people and then set them on fire.”
Rau says it was chaotic and it apparently did not take long for the man to be overtaken. He says investigators are sifting through the information now. Unfortunately, at least two people were injured in the ensuing fire, which other media reported as multiple fires. Rau says he believes there was a total of one fire.”
This could explain why armed security is more necessary than ever. This was for you Chas.
Say ksgrm, I think you wore Chas out yesterday.
Poor guy is a glutten for it though.
I guess so. Don’t know why he keeps setting himself for the abuse.
Comment Tater, I think you missed a couple. I think these should be called – Chasisms.
Well, there are certainly many more ways other than shooting up a church to express those sorts of feelings, Ken…Posted by: Chas. | December 10, 2007 at 06:10 PM
- Really?
——————————————————————–
But Ken, the guy didnt exactly telegraph his intentions either!!And as was pointed out earlier, the attack earlier was at least 12 hours before, and quite some distance away…Posted by: Chas. | December 10, 2007 at 06:12 PM
- The two shootings were a whopping 80 miles apart. Ya think 12 hours is enough time to travel 80 miles?
- Oh, and how many mass murderers telegraph their intentions? “Say Everyone! (Waving weapon around) Guess what I’m gonna do!”
——————————————————————–
I dont recall ever seeing armed security where weapons were hidden… except for Secret Service, or plain clothes detectives…
Posted by: Chas. | December 10, 2007 at 06:13 PM
- How would you SEE the weapons if they were HIDDEN?
Posted by: Max | December 11, 2007 at 11:27 AM
_______
Sorry about the Chasism omissions, Max. The task of enumerating all of them was daunting. But that for the additions, and for the clever, newly coined moniker: Chasisms. Somehow I think that’s probably gonna stick.
Should read: “…but THANKS for the additions.”
Gee, Tater, I dont know that I have been proven wrong about anything… been disagreed with… but hardly proven Wrong… Guess that makes you Wrong for not being able to tell the difference!! Disagreement is not WRONG, you nincompoop!!
Posted by: Chas. | December 11, 2007 at 08:45 AM
Been reading with amusement the above. Chas, I’ll give you the same advice I gave JR a short while back.
When you’re in a hole, the first thing to do is stop digging.
So . . . step away from the shovel, Chas.
Interesting, Max. Perhaps it would be wise to consult with the legal guys on whether or not you could secure a copyright on Chasism.
BTW, is the superlative of Chasism a Chasm??
Who died and made you God??
Posted by: Chas. | December 11, 2007 at 01:03 PM
Do you believe that someone had to die for tater to think he could be god? Whatever he thinks his god is – isn’t that what you say. So why did someone have to die?
Maybe you were referencing the Judeo-Christian relegion that believes that Jesus Christ died for us and God is who made that possible. No confusion who God is there.
Mary:There are just as many households per capita with guns herabouts as in the US, maybe more if you consider hunting is a relativley bigger pastime locally. I thought your murder rate was greater than ours but you are indicating it to be about 100 times greater. That seem an impossibility to me. Not picking a fight, just wondering out loud.
Northern Neighbor, Mary makes up her gun stats. She never cites a linked credible source.
Nymphochasimic – Addicted to Orchasms (or O’Chasisms).
You realize Comment Tater, it will take much time to compile the whole Book of O’Chasisms.
Sado-Masochasism? Loves to be tortured by Sado-Chasm.
It may take time, but we’ve a good start. My guess is that it won’t take long to be provided with new material, either. With just a few more posts by Chas, we should be able to significantly expand the dictionary by midnight.
Actually, Capn, I have an entire staff. I’m sending them out to watch you, too.
***TIN FOIL HAT ALERT**
Tater would that be those guys in the Raybans I see getting out of the black helocopters?
I did hear Mr. Webster has you and Max on his short list.
MassaCLUE = what CONs do to established scientific evidence to support global warming or evolution
That would be what the libs do wouldn’t it. I don’t support global warming or evolution.
Capn,
I would laugh at it, but it wasn’t funny. Wasn’t original either.
Libs… always a day late and a dollar short. (dollar short because they love to over-tax.)
ksgrm,
I can neither confirm nor deny that my staff is currently wearing raybans or exiting their vehicles.
*** TIN FOIL HAT ALERT ***
Actually ksgrm, Capn is trying to be cute again by using a portion of my name as he often done using the “JM” stolen nic and other nics which he doesn’t admit to.
But since Brownlee is too spineless to do anything about CapnAmerica, he lets him get away with it.
I’m beginning to think CapnAmerica and Brownlee are relatives or neighbors as there is nothing that the Capn does on this blog that will get him banned.
I do it once as a joke and bam!
Capn does it for months and months and months and NOTHING.
Brownlee is a spineless worm and Capn is a low life spineless worm as he doesn’t want to post his real name on the blog, but he’s more than happy to post mine -
without my permission.
I will find out who you are someday Capn and then you will be crying like a little girl when that day comes.
Go ahead, let you and your butt buddy, the spineless Brownlee have your fun.
I’ll wait patiently, then I will strike very, very hard.
Be forewarned, I am coming for you Capn.
That will give the Libs something to whine about.
They have been forewarned, but still continue to be hypocrites and do the same to me for months, what I did just once.
I’m very patient and will succeed.
Yeah and you were gonna shoot me with your “twice barrel” there “kansas”.
Melt down AGAIN!
Issue more threats.
Kook.
Not a threat – a promise
Brownlee’s inaction forced me into it.
Folks I think we have a violent act in the planning stages here.
Not unlike that church thing.
One of you on “kansas”’s side of things might want to try and defuse him.
Many of us HAVE suggested he seek help.
Welp I’m walking to the store.
Try and stay safe Capn!
heh.
Ummm, doesn’t Kansas always have his blue underline thingy on his name when he posts?
Looks like a Lib Troll posting above.
Chasismkansasersonator.
I haven’t seen such nonsense since jr. high (maaaaany years ago). And we wonder why bullying is a problem in our schools. Any of you have any influence in children’s lives?
Oh you must mean the Capn being the bully right lindainks?
He puts other people’s names on the blog and nothing happens to them.
Capn puts other people’s names on the blog without their permission, month after month after month.
Capn posts other people’s email on the blog without their permission, month after month after month.
You did mean that the Capn was the bully right lindainks?
Or are you the blind biggoted Lib we all know that you are?
I must be the blind bigoted Lib you know I am. I think adults who have behave this way should be ashamed. But, remember, I’m blind and bigoted and worse – A LIBERAL. I’m ashamed of all of you.
Someone here sounds Unchasismic.
Be ashamed of Phillip Brownlee for siding with CapnAmerica and letting CapnAmerica continually get away month after month of posting my personal and private data on the blog.
Be ashamed that Phillip Brownlee has not banned CapnAmerica for breaking every rule on the blog, stealing nics, trolling and harassment daily on the blog.
That’s what you should be ashamed of.
I have it from a reliable source that Capn America has been banned from the WE Blog (today), but like you, Kansas, he is able to work around such inconveniences.
If that’s true Steven Davis, then thanks for the information and my apologies to Phillip Brownlee.
As you can tell I am frustrated after being bullied by the Capn and others for months.
I just want to post and discuss.
If others don’t like my opinion, then tell my why on my opinion not me – don’t use personal attacks (look at evolution thread where apophis adds nothing to the thread but insult)
I don’t need anyone to tell me what is shameful. I’m an adult and although quite imperfect try hard to behave. The bunch of you on this thread let yourselves get into the gang mentality and laughed and made fun of people. It probably won’t happen again. Anyway, it shouldn’t.
Kansas, there is never going to be a better weapon to deal with improper behavior than ignoring it. Joining in with what you find hurtful, repulsive, immature (or whatever) doesn’t help.
Other than my recent threads complaining about CapnAmerica, show me where I made fun of anyone on the blog.
Kansas, there is never going to be a better weapon to deal with improper behavior than ignoring it. Joining in with what you find hurtful, repulsive, immature (or whatever) doesn’t help.
Posted by: lindainks55 | December 11, 2007 at 07:13 PM
That’s true lindainks55 and I will strive to get better.
But at least can you understand what I went through for months being taunted by CapnAmerica and having him posting my private data on the blog on a daily basis.
How would you react if I did that to you lindainks55? Not once mind you, but daily for months on end.
I will do this once. Then I will take my good advice and ignore you. Did you call me names on this very thread? Was that necessary? Please don’t respond. There is no need. I think adding to this situation is useless. We’re all adults. We all know what is the way we like to be treated and we all remember that’s how we should treat others.
We’ve got so many public figures who are open to our criticism, our angry words, our disappointment. We have issues we disagree on. Can’t we point our childishness in those directions?
We are treated the way we allow ourselves to be treated. Because if there is no reaction the bully will quit.
Thanks for taking the time to maturely converse with me lindainks55.
I will heed your advice and be more civil and try to ignore the bullies.
I may need the extra strong harness to rein in my Scottish blood. :)
Sorry linda. I will not be nice to this guy.
He threatened to kill me.
Sorry linda. I will not be nice to this guy.
He threatened to kill me.
Posted by: J R | December 11, 2007 at 07:37 PM
I have not.
I can show linda the proof.
I’ll not trade posts with “kansas”
It is his goal to get the blog shut down.
I leave him to say what he likes about me here. I will not answer.
It’s my goal to make blog thrive with differing opinion J R.
I would like it to be friendly enough where a visitor can come in and make a comment without getting browbeaten for it.
That is my goal and always has been.
I want the WE Blog to be the domino corner, the barber or beauty shop of old, where people come and discuss their ideas, politics, religion and philosophy.
That’s one way we learn, by listening to others. Sometimes the truth stings, but it is advantageous to all to hear them out.
Yeah having multiple nics and threatening to kill people is real good start for discourse aint it?
No dice JMkansas. Too many people I DO respect gave you chance after chance.
You can comfort yourself in one thing. You HAVE changed this place. Not for the better though.
“If that’s true Steven Davis, then thanks for the information and my apologies to Phillip Brownlee.”
I have it from a reliable source that Kansas was blocked today also.
It would be news for me then Steven Davis as I’ve been using this IP forever, at least six months. The last time my IP changed is when the power out in my area and my router went blank and had to buy a new one.
“You can comfort yourself in one thing. You HAVE changed this place. Not for the better though.”
The first rule of the simian, “if you can’t control something, sh*t upon it.” Then, the second rule, “hurl said sh*t at innocent passers by.”
I thought the report I got was a more parsimonious explantion for your not using your typekey account than the one offered by you. Sorry, given your history, your word is difficult for me to accept.
Testing my typekey for Steven Davis.
If I get a blank, then it’s still messed up.
That’s why I’ve been using regular sign in.