New Jersey hasn’t executed anyone since 1963, though it reinstated the death penalty in 1982. That put it in a similar situation as Kansas, which has yet to use the death penalty it reinstated in 1994. Will Kansas join New Jersey in abolishing its unused death penalty? New Jersey Gov. Jon Corzine signed the bill this week replacing it with a sentence of life without possibility of parole, saying, “There is little collective will or appetite for our community to enforce this law and therefore the law has little deterrence value – that is if you ever accepted that there was deterrent value.â€
Each passing year makes the ineffective deterrence argument, along with the one about cost and fairness, ring truer in Kansas, especially with executions largely on hold nationally until the U.S. Supreme Court decides whether lethal injection constitutes cruel and unusual punishment.
Posted by Rhonda Holman
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84 Comments
Yes. With one fairly narrow exception.
The exceptions wouldn’t happen to be named Jonathan and Reginald would they GMC?
I’ve no problem with that.
I don’t have a problem with the death penalty if our justice system was more sound.
What about Ray Ray Robinson?
A good friend of mine had him as a student in middle school. He was an obvious sociopath then. Is it a big surprise that he is now facing trial on capital murder charges?
Actually, no, JR, they wouldn’t, though if we’re gonna have a DP, they certainly deserve it. And yes, some do indeed deserve it. I’m just not convinced it’s wise policy, at least in the current legal atmosphere of endless appeals. And there is also the certainty, sooner or later, of wrongful execution, given that we are fallible human beings.
My exception would be crimes of violence (including serious batteries) committed in prison by long-term inmates. It is at that point the only deterrent left.
Yeah, lets abolish teh death penalty and let the Carr brothers out in 15 years.I’m so sick of our system I could scream.What we need to do is streamline the death penalty so that’s it’s carried out in a timely manner, like within 5 yrs of the crime.Right now the guy who murdered my 2 friends is getting out on parole for the 4th time (after recieving 2 life sentences at his conviction)…how in the hell are we supposed to get any closure when he’s out on the streets..he’s already proven 3 times that he can’t handle being out..yet he gets ANOTHER chance…he never even gave his victims one chance, just killed them for the fun of it, and then bragged about how he “killed the mother f**kers”. They were only kids in their 20s and their children grew up without them. He freely admits he killed them…but now he’s found “Jesus” and is a “new” person…like the DA said at the last parole hearing, “Don’t you know? That’s where Jesus lives, in the prison”.
If I could give him the injection myself, I’d gladly do it. At least he couldn’t victimize anyone else like he’s done the last 3 times he’s been out on parole. There is no real justice in our country, the system is a joke and the criminals have all the rights.
And where is the Eagle? They were at the parole hearing…but there hasn’t been a peep about him getting out it in the news.
I agree with you GMC70.
My sympathies Mary. I understand your pain.
Well I try to.
But you must know that the problems you have with the justice system are not the ONLY problems in the justice system.
We must not execute an innocent because of a mistake.
I am sure you meant what you said with the provision that guilt be absolutely certain.
Of course I would..but in cases like the Carr brothers or like my friends..there was no doubt and those guys should die. If someone intentionally, willfully, and maliciously takes a life, they should pay for it with their own..that’s only fair.
I watched/listened to much of the Carrs’ trial.
I am convinced they were guilty.
Anybody know their status? Are they appealing?
I’d have no problem seeing them die tomorrow.
Just think of it this way JR…if someone kidnapped your son and killed him for the fun of it..do you think they should be given 4 separate chances to get out fo prison and turn themselves around? Or would you rather just see them “put to sleep” like a sick or vicious dog?The lethal injection is such an easy way to die..much easier probably than the way the perpetrator’s victims died. They literally put them to sleep like in surgery and then stop their heart with an overdose of potassium…being aborted is more painful to a fetus than someone dying from lethal injection, but you don’t hear any of the pro-choice crowd worrying it.
We agree with that the death penalty should be abolished in Kansas. It’s barbaric.
Reginald CarrDennis RaderJonathan Carr
I thnk Dennis signed it to support the Carrs!
From what I’ve heard the Carr brothers are taking advantage of every appeal available to them and trying to find out if there were any technicalities in the trial that might get their convictions overturned. It’s obvious they want to live, even if it means spending the rest of their life in prison…so for that reason alone they should get the death penalty..I’m sure their victims wanted to live also.
Yeah, if anyone deserved to die it’s Dennis Rader..what a sick f**k he is.
Heinous, violence and cold blooded are the crimes that describe what crimes the Carr brothers did.
Heinous, violent and monstrous describe what type of crims Dennis Rader did.
These people deserve the death penalty without any doubt, hesitation or reservation.
Vast evidence AND an eyewitness victim/survivor.
It is too bad there is not a special proviso for cases which are so obvious for denying further appeals.
Hey legal eagles? The Carrs can’t get out of it if the death penalty is overturned can they?
It is worth keeping just for them.
“According to roughly a dozen recent studies, executions save lives. For each inmate put to death, the studies say, 3 to 18 murders are prevented.”
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/11/18/us/18deter.html?_r=1&oref=slogin
That is the main reason I am for the death penalty.
I am of two minds on this. I wouldn’t mind abolishing the death penalty if it were clear that these murderers wound never, ever get out of prison for any reason, ever. But that’s not the case here, and I wonder whether it’s really the case in New Jersey, despite the new law.
I was at a funeral yesterday, for a guy that went to Kapaun with a younger brother of mine.The Priest, also a classmate of the decedant, read off a list of the class mates that had died, from that Kapaun Class.I believe that at least two of them died at the hands of the Carr brothers.The Priest called it a “class of sorrow” and prayed they would all be able to see each other, again, in Heaven, under happier circumstances.The Church was very crowded.There wasn’t a dry eye in the place.—–Anyway, I do not consider capital punishment to be vengence.I consider it to be just and appropriate defense of society.These animals will kill again, in prison, or while attempting an escape.
Lethal injection actually does bother me. I would rather not have the medical profession so involved.
Each execution prevents 3-18 murders? How do they come up with those kind of stats? How many people are on death row vs how many have been actually been executed in the last 10 years? Most states haven’t executed anyone since the death penalty was reinstated. As for all of those years of appeals, who pays for that, mostly us taxpayers. And many murderers’ crimes never qualify for as a capital crime and they are eventually let out to kill again. So other than satisfying our collective thirst for vengance, how does the death penalty benefit us as a society?
KenS
“Turning States Evidence” — and giveing “closure” to families by telling us where the bodies are.
Plea bargains come a little easier if you can take the death penalty off the table.
— But it has to be ON the table First, before you can bargain it away!!!
But it has to be ON the table First, before you can bargain it away!
But is the fact that it is “on the table” even a player? Especially when most criminals and their lawyers know that one’s chances of dying at the hands of the state are likely less than 10,000 to 1? When was the last time anyone was executed by the state of Kansas? And in that time, how many millions of dollars has it cost the taxpayers of Kansas to fight an execution that likely will never take place?
I don’t think the death penalty should exist as long as there is no way to know for certain in many cases if it is used properly, and to the truly most heinous of our society. Take for instance the man who shot and killed the police officer. This guy may have been evil, but I really think he was just plumb out of his mind on drugs. Some beleive he deserves to die. They may be right. I”m happy to let him live out every last breath in prison. As long as life means life, with no possibility of parole-ever. And they can be housed in segregated quarters like death row inmates. Besides, I think this kind of death is an easy way out. Let them live long enough to suffer and die slowly from cancer. Now there’s a death nobody wants.
I always remember that the prison system is just completely another society within a society.They get their meals and a place to sleep and some entertainment.They have gyms to exercise and social gatherings.They can work, get an education, go to church, medical treatments and etc.Their society is almost the same as being outside of prison with a few exceptions.I never forget that that they are dangerous and that if they have free will to do as they please, they would continue doing the very same thing that convicted them into prison in the first place.If you are going to lead in society then do so without regrets, if you have a death penalty then use it.Stop fussing whether it is right or wrong; get the message across, if you do something that warrants it then that is that, no and, ifs or buts about it.
Btw, have any of you on the WeBlog been watching the series Gangland on the history channel?It gives you a good ideal of what is going on in prisons.
My thoughts on the DP you have a higher standard say a no doubt instead a reasonable one. You limit the time for appeals. If deterrence is are main concern then go back to public execution, dont use lethal injections use hanging, or some other method for suitable for the public spectacle. Use dead convicts for organ donation use and Med school research if the cons family wants his corpse they can pay his incarnation costs saving taxpayer money. As for GMC concerns to me inmates killing each other off is a positive not a negative. A prison guard friend of mine told me once its his job to make sure they dont escape he doesn’t care what they do to each other.
Yes our justice system is very flawed. We talk about treating criminals failrly when they have done anything but. Punishment must be a deterrent. Do you think the Carr brothers would have gone on a rampage if they knew that if caught and convicted, they would be subjected to TEN TIMES the pain and suffering they inflicted? Damn right they wouldn’t. The punishment must fit or exceed the crime in order for the laws of society to be respected.
“According to roughly a dozen recent studies, executions save lives. For each inmate put to death, the studies say, 3 to 18 murders are prevented.”
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/11/18/us/18deter.html?_r=1&oref=slogin
That is the main reason I am for the death penalty.Posted by: outlander | December 18, 2007 at 06:32 PM
===========================
That statistic is totally bogus… For one very GLARING reason >>>
If those same prisoners you are wanting to execute are serving life without possibility of parole, then the figure remains the same.
—————————-
And we know it costs more to execute a condemned prisoner, than it does to house them for life!
I personaly think the death penalty is an easy way out. I think murderes should get solitary confinment for life, with no human contack, or no t.v., just eat, sleep, and crap in their 8 by 8 foot padded cell. Maybe give them a newspaper, or a book, but thats it.
It always amazes me how Rhonda Holman and the editorial board has no problem when liberals impose their morality on us. Mind you Gov Corzine and the NJ legislature used the ‘moral’ argument against the death penalty. But see how fiery and all self righteous the Eagle becomes when it is conservatives trying legislate from their moral perspective. Pray tell, Ms. Holman, why is it okay to impose the anti-death penalty morality but so horrible to impose the anti-abortion morality? I doubt you will have an answer…hypocrisy rarely does.
As a Catholic, (the anti-abortion people) I DO believe in the sanctity of life. I think we should abolish the death penalty. I also agree with all those who posted their concerns with these killers getting out for any reason. Life imprisonment, locked away, closed cell, no TV, no perks, no school. Nothing. Imagine the French prison where Pappion (sp?) was held. Food, weekly prayer, and that’s it. Wait for death to come when God allows it.
There is an enormous difference between a living breathing thinking feeling being…and a group of cells!
“…how in the hell are we supposed to get any closure when he’s out on the streets…”
It seems difficult to believe that having killers killed leads to any actual “closure”. Has that issue ever been studied to anyone’s knowledge?
I used to favor the death penalty.. until recently. I was on a jury–not a criminal trial, but a civil one. The scary things I saw in “deliberations” shattered my beliefs in the “justice system”. Jurors were making up things to justify their position. The common thing I saw was, “my mind is made up, don’t confuse me with facts”.
With this horrid means of deciding “guilt/innocence” I personally believe it is a terrible idea to place someone’s lives in the hands of these idiotic jurors who cannot see a FACT that is right in front of them.
Capital punishment is absolute, I wish the justice system was as absolute in it’s findings. I have no probem with the death penalty, what worries me is killing someone who didn’t commit the crime. I get all tied up over this, especially when those not being able to afford a good lawyer, are mentally inadequate or being a minority seems to make up the bulk of death row.
Taz — Did you notify the presiding judge about the “conditions” in the jury room??
Such conditions could well have been grounds for a mis-trial!
No, what we need is an expressway to a public hanging. Even now, pass legislation that would expedite the sentences of all those we’re being forced to support on death row and hang them all in one weekend.
How amazing that these libs will kill an innocent baby at the drop of a hat, but do nothing, absolutely nothing to see that the Carr brothers get their just desserts.
“According to roughly a dozen recent studies, executions save lives. For each inmate put to death, the studies say, 3 to 18 murders are prevented.”
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/11/18/us/18deter.html?_r=1&oref=slogin
That is the main reason I am for the death penalty.Posted by: outlander | December 18, 2007 at 06:32 PM===========================
That statistic is totally bogus… For one very GLARING reason >>>
If those same prisoners you are wanting to execute are serving life without possibility of parole, then the figure remains the same.—————————-
That statistic is totally bogus… For one very GLARING reason >>>
If those same prisoners you are wanting to execute are serving life without possibility of parole, then the figure remains the same. – Chas
——-Chas. It isn’t the murders those criminals would have committed if they were free that make up the stats. They obviously would have been in jail for life if they weren’t executed. It is the apparent deterrent effect of the execution of the death penalty on the public, some of whom would have committed murders, but didn’t.
Posted by: Gentle Ben | December 19, 2007 at 08:43 AM
Talk about irony on the blog…
Incidentally, fix your software. I keep getting goofy fonts when I’m writing a response, and then I had to fill in 3 different boxes to get the message to post.
There would be far more deterrent effect if they were executed the weekend after the trial, preferably by public hanging.
We ask perfectly wonderful young men to die for our country and our way of life. Even if we were wrong on the current charges against the Carr brothers, what would society lose if they were wrongly executed? For once they would have done something for the society the soiled with their presence.
Kill them. Kill them quickly and publicly. When the prisons get overcrowded, pick some of the excess prison population and execute them until there’s room for more, and your crime rates will drop like a lead balloon.
If nothing else, the recidivism rates will go down and who cares if we execute some druggie who steals a TV a day to support his habit.
Incidentally, you would pick the prisoners on the inside to die based on their conduct inside the prisons. Gang members, violent recidivists, or for that matter the burglary a day types that destroy the very fabric of our society by making it miserable to live in peace without having to lock everything down all the time.
What would we, as a society, lose if we took every prisoner currently in jail for any offense out and shot them?
We kill that many babies every year, babies who have done no evil, why not these losers? Then we can start filling the prisons back up again and clean even more of this scum off the street.
How about punishing parents when it can be proved, as it could with the Carrs parents, that they were horrendously brought up. Why not give them the same sentence?
Politicians who violate the public trust? Gather all of the other officials together so they can watch the hanging of the one that got caught. Again, the weekend after the trial, none of this 20 years later crap.
“It seems difficult to believe that having killers killed leads to any actual “closure”. Has that issue ever been studied to anyone’s knowledge?”
Steve..what I mean by “closure” is that ever since my friends were brutally murdered, we have had to fight to keep this monster in jail..He was already on parole for armed robbery when he murdered John and Sue, he came up for parole every few years after he served 15, was let out twice since the murder, and now just has been granted parole for the 3rd time since he shot them exicution style while they knelt on the floor. Each time he comes up for parole, we (friends, family, and their children) go before the parole board, relive the murder and the impact on our lives. How do we move on when we have to fight to keep him in jail for the rest of his life? How do we move on when we know he’s free on the streets to continue his criminal ways? He also knows each and everyone of us who have fought for justice for so long…how do we ever feel at ease knowing how little life means to him and his violent nature?There is no real justice in our system…if there was, he would have been given the death penalty, he’d be gone, and we wouldn’t have to worry about him impacting our lives anymore.
FYI..the murder of our friends received two life sentences for his crime. He was out on parole for the first time after the murder in less than 23 yrs.
There is not a single person on Kansas’ death row that is the subject of any doubt about whether they are guilty or not. They all deserve to die, and the only problem with the death penalty is that it takes about 10 years too long to perform the execution.
“Gentle ben”
You are one real sick individual.
If you insist on drawing a link between crime and abortion, you should be speaking to the root causes of both.
That being social and economic injustice.
Great post, Mary. This vermin should have been exterminated promptly after his conviction.
The root cause of crime is a liberalism that tells vermin like the Carr brothers that they’re entitled to anything in life they want. Go read the testimony presented at their trial regarding their upbringing. They are the perfect example of what the trillions of dollars of wasted money bought us in Lyndon Johnson’s War on Poverty.
If we didn’t pay scum like the rat that spewed out the Carr brothers to have children, we would be far better off. Instead we make producing litters of crack babies the gateway into the public trough.
Shut it down. If you have a baby, support it your self, don’t ask someone else (who might actually know how to raise a child) to pay for your bastard.
Well then you “gentle ben” are invited to shut your generous yap about who and who should not be forced to carry a pregnancy to term.
Oh and by the way?
A society that does not “entitle” its citizens to the basic needs of life…
forces them to acquire them by whatever means that they can.
The reason you people support abortion is because you don’t have the guts to tell some worthless pig that you don’t want to support her bastard, so you encourage her to kill it instead.
Not only do you encourage the worst elements in society to produce the next generation, you discourage people who would be responsible parents from having children because their taxes are so high having to pay for these welfare brats. Then to ad insult to injury you want us to demean ourselves by slaughtering innocent babies to cover up for the stupidity of our social policies.
When they do in the Carr brothers, they ought to round up the rat that whelped them and do her in also.
Maary — That person who has given you and your friends undue grief, was wrongly sentenced at the time of his conviction. Had he been sentenced to LIFE without the possibility of parole, then he would not have been eligible for parole hearings… Locked up, with no key!
You might want to do some kind of write-in campaign to the DA and the Judge who presided over the Case.
Now, now, Gentle Ben — IF the mother of the Carr brothers would have aborted those babies, then they wouldnt have grown up to be the killers that they have been, now would they??
You speak with forked tongue!!
thanks for making my point that abortion is the coward’s path to welfare reform. It’s your idiotic social policies that created the problem. Stop paying these rats to spew out their litters and you won’t have to demean yourself, and our country, by killing innocent babies.
In addition, any woman giving birth to a child found to have either fetal alcohol syndrome, or addicted to drugs, should be forced to work to pay for the burden she gave to society.
Another thought, as a precondition of receiving any welfare benefits the woman must be sterilized so that she doesn’t produce more children to be a burden to society.
The only thing that should entitle you to the basic needs of life is work. And using any means outside of honest toil to acquire those basic needs should put you at the end of a rope in the public square – quickly.
Our society is in such a mess that we need to return to a little frontier justice for a while to get things back on the right track.
If every woman on this planet aborted their baby from today following, we would not have any crime in about 80 years.
eliminate the human, eliminate the crime. Problem solved!
Or we can teach our children to value life, live for a worthwhile purpose and respect the lives of others.
Capital punishment should only be done has a means to signify how reprehensible it is to selfishly take another human being’s life.
Protecting the life inside a mother’s womb is consistent with a pro-capital punishment stance because both stances recognize the immense value to all life.
By allowing the state to adjudicate the grievances committed against us we should demand that the state exact retribution for the crimes committed against us, not worry about non-existent rehabilitation.
The parasite that killed Mary’s two friends should have also been killed – immediately and publicly.
We get it Ben, spit on sidewalk-kill em! Jaywalk-kill em! B&E-kill em! Cheat on taxes-kill em! Failure to yeild-kill em!
We get it Ben!
I agree with GMC’s two posts above. Not because the death penalty is an inappropriate punishment for certain crimes; given today’s political, social and legal climate, I think it is generally unworkable. The most compelling reason for eliminating the DP is, however, the risk of an innocent person being executed (if it hasn’t already happened) given the inherent fallibility of we humans.
Ah, but we ask fine young men to die everyday to protect our way of life. Let us assume for the sake of argument that the Carr brothers are completely innocent of the current charges. What would society lose by executing them by accident? Anymore than we lose by losing a patriotic young man who dies implementing our foreign policy abroad?
No, no, cheating on taxes is an honorable thing to do in the face of the confiscatory nature of our tax code and the complete misuse of the money. After al, the government raised the Carr vermin.
Where have all the liberals gone? No doubt seeking Ms Carr out to comfort her in her hour(s) of need.
None of the Carrs would be very likely to get any sympathy from me. Reminds me of that other ‘mother’ (sic) who tried to get sympathy for her murderer son by telling the Court about all the drugs she gave him. My reaction was to hang her alongside him.
Good thought.
Rather than do away with the death penalty, I think Kansans need to elect a governor that not only has the guts and nerve to let the executions be carried out, but to respect the wishes of the voters who helped the act become law in the first place.
Us vs. them? Death is death. Noone can justify a reason to kill and this makes the Death Penalty Wrong. HUman Justification to kill is wrong. We punish someone for killing by killing them?? This is odd!! Should we Rape someone to punish them for Raping someone? Should we shoot someone for shooting another? Should we steal from someone becuse they stole? Where do we draw the line? Killing is killing!! We cannot blame our actions on others. We should stop the Death Penalty. What if the committed other crimes and those families want some kind of closure? We killed that opportunity. At a minimum, setting in Prison for 20, 30, 40, 50 years and necer seeing a girl, a beer, or any other right for 40 50 years is more punishment than the Death Penalty. Sit with nothing for 1 hour in a small closet and look at what it is like. Herbert West III, Publisher. west dot herb at yahoo dot com
why should the people have to pay for someone else mistake and jeoprodize really nice comunitys by haveing to build jailhouses………the people of the united states has to pay so much in taxes to feed and house the criminal….i am 21 years old and even i know the difference between right and wrong………if you comit the crime then you should have to pay the time…….it just isnt fair to the inocent to have to pay for their mistake……enforce the penalty and you will see less crimes comited……… all they seem to get is a slap on the hand for killing or selling drugs…if the punishment was worse then maybe they wont do that
the death penalty is just not worth the cost involved.
A true conservative will opposethe death penalty on that groundalone.
the cost to the taxpayers is
300% higher to fund a death
penalty – driven criminal justicesystem than one without the deathpenalty.
besides, death lets some off tooeasy
Just use the same Euthanasia injection they use for animals.
That cheap enough fixed income? :)
The silliest argument of all is the cost of the death penalty argument. If you took them out and hung them in the public square the weekend after the trial there wouldn’t be all of the wasted cost.
I find it despicable that those costs are there because of liberals and then they use the costs as an argument against the death penalty. A completely circular and useless argument.
And once again the software is screwing up. Typepad sucks.
Angry mean Ben, there is something seriously loose cannon about you. Perhaps you need to be convicted wrongly in order to see another side of what happens in the justice system. I bet you’d change your mind awfully darn fast.
Boy I’m glad I didn’t have all day to sit and read the spew you had to type there “gentle ben”.
You’re nuts.
Hey if your against the Death Penalty your a weak individual. I would have absoultely no problem with it. I believe they should auction off the rights for executing someone so that the victims could recieve compensation. High bidder gets to pull the trigger or turn up the current. And I guess I am also one that believes that the death penalty should be as painful as it can be and not a quick death. OK sure there will be mistakes and innocents will lose their life but crime rates will drop.
Wow.
I’m all for justice in cases of undeniable guilt.
But SOME posters here sound like rejects from Thunderdome.
“Boy I’m glad I didn’t have all day to sit and read the spew you had to type there “gentle ben”.
You’re nuts.”
Posted by: J R | December 19, 2007 at 03:08 PM
And you’re apparently incapable of formulating a logical argument.
Riddle me this.
Is there anybody on Kansas death row who anybody thinks did not do it? Just one?
Riddle answer: NO
How about a law that says rapists and child molesters and serial killers can NEVER be placed in solitary confinement or protective custody?
Let the general population deal with them!
And, if you say that would be wrong, well, why is that?
Do you admit that murder DOES happen in prison?
And how do we stop those in prison from killing again?
And,Nobody forces anyone, in this country, to break the law.
If you steal, you are a criminal. Nobody made you do it.
“You made me do it” is the crybaby’s way out.
Or, the Sociopath.
As one pundit put it, “New Jersey doesn’t need the death penalty. Living there is punishment enough.”
Ask yourself this; when the inevitable mistake is made and an innocent person is executed, would you be willing to go (alone and unarmed) to explain how it happened to his/her family? If not, then you have no business supporting the death penalty.
Yes, no more death penalty. Because if I have finally had enough and start paying back to those that have jacked me around, it will be nice to know that I won’t be executed. Obviously most of you against the death penalty have been government educated and have a limited college experience. Those of you who have a college education, you need to get your money back. Of course the big problem is that we have a bunch of spineless yellow bellied frat boys (and girls) in leadership positions running the government who don’t want to make the hard decisions that the job requires. They just want the money and not have to work for a living.
I don’t believe in the death penalty. Living there is punishment enough. I can’t believe people still believe in an eye for an eye. First try going to jail yourself before you say it’s good to have the death penalty.