In light of the Senate inquiry into the lavish spending by some ministry leaders, including private jets and Rolls-Royces, it was good to read in last Saturday’s Eagle about two Christian leaders who are trying not to be greedy about their success. Best-selling author Joel Osteen hasn’t taken a salary from his 48,000-member Houston church for two years, has lived in the same house for 13 years and, until recently, drove a 9-year-old car he inherited from his father. Rick Warren (in photo), author of the “The Purpose-Driven Life,†has repaid all his salary from his California megachurch and pledged to give away 90 percent of his book royalties. Warren also accepts no speaking fees and doesn’t mince words about the ministries under investigation: “The opulent lifestyles of televangelists make me sick.â€
Posted by Phillip Brownlee
Registered?
Commenting on WE Blog now requires you to be a Kansas.com member. Use the links above to register, if you haven't already, or to log in.Contact us
Follow us
Daily Archives
-
Recent Comments
- Heckler on Open thread 11/23
- Agnatha on Let immigrants run
- BlueJay on Open thread 11/23
- Agnatha on Let immigrants run
- Raptor on Too many exemptions
- Phantom on Open thread 11/23
- Raptor on Too many exemptions
- Monkeyhawk on Open thread 11/23
- ANTI on Open thread 11/23
- JimJohnson on Open thread 11/23
64 Comments
If Osteen and Warren accept no salaries, then what is it they are living on?? They are entitled to a salary, the same as any other church pastor.
It was in the story Chas, what they live on.
“We make plenty of money from our books,” said Osteen, 44. “But we just live normal lives. We try to be conservative and honor God with our life and with our example.”
Greed ( grd) n. 1. An excessive desire to acquire or possess more than what one needs or deserves, especially with respect to material wealth: “ Many . . . attach to competition the stigma of selfish greed ” Henry Fawcet
I wonder what other sins that you can attach to some of them?
Jesus seemed to get along quite nicely without Rolls Royces and private jets and Armani pajamas. It’s doubtful he ever had more than about two sheckels to rub together at a time, and preached endlessly on the dangers of wealth (a subject you’ll never hear a sermon about). WWJD?
These mega churches astonish me. How in the world could any pastor know each of the 48,000 church members? Joel Osteen is on television also; so does he get paid through that outlet instead of his church?
As for Rick Warren, didn’t his wife also write a book? Is she getting and keeping her royalties? I also heard where she had cancer this past year. Those costs had to be extraordinary – who paid these? The church? The Warrens?
Mega churches, in my opinion, are exactly what Jesus preached against. In the Bible it states that whenever 2 or more are gathered in my name, I will be there – somehow I don’t think Jesus had any vision of these 48,000 member mega churches.
Besides, there are other creative accounting ways to pay these pastors. Just don’t call it a salary – call it something else. If so, then I would wonder what the IRS thinks about such creative accounting.
I am not a fan of evangelists but I do believe Osteen and Warran are the real deal. To me, the flashier the lifestyle, the more hollow the integrity. Socialogically speaking, what message does it send to poor/average congregations that their minister is filthy rich?Do poor people beleive that if they just believe in God a little harder thatt they too will achieve material wealth?I don’t believe in chopping down wealthy people for their display of riches but I do think there is a different standard for preachers and that doesn’t come from society, that comes from the bible.Onward Christian Investors!
At the mid size church my mom goes to, the congregation is building the pastor a house.
A good gig if you can get it.
Why not residential quarters at the church?
“I also heard where she had cancer this past year. Those costs had to be extraordinary – who paid these? The church? The Warrens?”
Not that it’s any of your business, but they have insurance.
Greed and materialism is so addicting..and preachers and other church leaders are just as vulnerable as the rest of us…just look at how the pope lives, more like a king than a disciple of Christ.I don’t like religion, it’s true purpose always gets skewed by those who are in a position to take advantage of the vulnerablity of others. Power and money can be so corrupting.
Jed, I believe it should be WWJBwhat would Jesus buy?
I can’t speak for him but from what I read he would problee buy food, clothes and medicine for the poor.
Can’t help but think about this when I see the diamond commercials over and over trying to make me feel guilty because I’m a bad hubby for not being wealthy enough for diamonds.
Olsteen and Warren are to be commended. It should be a “given” that if you are a man of God you do not need anything but the basics, and the word of God.
Mary, I apologize for being a shitty blogger the other day.I’m just too damned human for my own good.
All of this is relative. I’m sure if we knew their incomes, Osteen and Warren make really good livings by ordinary standards. By lifestyles of the rich and famous standards, not so good. But it is also none of our business.
They both seem like good men. Assuming I am reading it all correctly I salute them both.
This is just proof that mega-church pastors are all pretty much fact-challenged. It’s also rather disturbing. From the linked article:
============
Osteen refuses to condemn the targets of Grassley’s inquiry, or Richard Roberts, who stepped down as president of Oral Roberts University in Oklahoma City amid charges that he used school funds and facilities for his family.
“While I never like to hear negative things about friends and other ministers, I choose to believe the very best in them,” said Osteen. “I believe them all to be people of integrity.”
=========
Good post outlander.
Most people don’t understand that a large majority of Ministers don’t make all that much.
My Uncle was a minister for 60 years and received about $300.00 month from his Denomination retirement account. He of course had a full time job in addition to preaching as an ordained Minister at various churches.
I’ve been a member of churches where they don’t have a house for the minister, some rent the house for the preacher, some buy the house for the preacher and some houses are given to the Church via Wills for the benefit of the preacher.
There are no set rules, but I never belonged to a Church where the house provided to the Preacher was opulent. It was usually representative of the Church economic spectrum – mostly lower middle class to middle class.
Minister salaries are voted on by the Congregation and vary depending on the size and complexity of the church. A church that has many missions, a school and/or support facilities will need a well educated administrator as well as a capable Minister. PhD’s are not uncommon in bigger churches for Ministers.
As was my Uncle, there are also many churches that use “Lay Ministers” who offer up what the Congregation can handle, which is usually not much in the way of a salary.
I can tell you from observational experience, that a good Minister’s day is long and challenge. Not only do they have to see to the administration of the Church as a spiritual body, but need to attend to the administrative functions of the Church (which are many) and do other things.
The other things are paying visits to parishioners, visiting people in rest homes, hospitals, homes and other areas.
My Uncle was a good man. He would think nothing to drive 200 mile round trip in one day to see a former member of his church that had fallen ill or there was a death in the family. Doing all that with a full time job wore on him, but he did it as he was doing the Lord’s work.
I know my Uncle spent more than he earned from the church doing Church business, but never heard him complain.
At the mid size church my mom goes to, the congregation is building the pastor a house.
A good gig if you can get it.
Why not residential quarters at the church?
Posted by: J R | December 15, 2007 at 09:36 AM
————————–A house for thepastor or justg a house for him to live in while he is the pastor for the church and then they wkill throw him out when he is no longer the pastor?
A house for thepastor or justg a house for him to live in while he is the pastor for the church and then they wkill throw him out when he is no longer the pastor?
Posted by: Right Angle | December 15, 2007 at 12:07 PM
The churches that I have been a member of, allow the family and the Pastor if he is still there to get re-settled in his new location if they are moving on to another church or even to a new location – i.e. retiring or having a new regular job.
Once the Pastor has resettled, the Church then goes in and makes any repairs/maintenance necessary to the house before the new Pastor moves in.
Sometimes there is a conflict on moving times, so the Church will see to that the new pastor has a rent house or an apartment as temporary quarters. As with most jobs, the family usually comes along afterwards.
At a small church I belonged to, there wasn’t a Church Parish, so the Pastor took turns staying at the houses of parishioners until he could find a home of his own. That was a church of 100 members or so, wasn’t much we could afford or upkeep as a house, but I heard one house was given to the Church by a Will.
Happened to be in Schuler’s Crystal Cathedral in Orange County once. On entering, the story of Jesus driving the money changers from the temple came to mind.
“This is just proof that mega-church pastors are all pretty much fact-challenged. It’s also rather disturbing.”
Tom: My comment would be that, as ministers of the Word, they take the advise of Jesus seriously.
Judge not, and ye shall not be judged: condemn not, and ye shall not be condemned: forgive, and ye shall be forgiven — Luke 6:37
J R seems to think that living in a “company” is a good gig.
I don’t think so.
J R seems to think that living in a “company HOUSE” is a good gig.
I don’t think so.
Outlander,
I find that verse is most often quoted when people don’t like the judgment being rendered.
In my judgment, megachurch televangelists who live like multimillionaires off the contributions of the poor are shysters and con artists, not men and women of God.
Some of them may be Tom, but that is only your opinion, based on your opinion, nothing more.
It is not the responsibility of Joel Osteen to condemn anyone. In fact it is his responsibility not to.
“I believe them all to be people of integrity,” said Olsteen.
Outlander,
That’s not withholding judgment. He IS judging them, and he judges them to be men of integrity. If he was doing as you claim, he would have said “I don’t pass judgment on my fellow man” and left it at that.
Mary I am surprised that you would make a blanket appraisal of ministers and implying that those vulnerable are taken advantage of by ministers is short sighted at best and judgemental at worst. By this statement I can gather that the vulnerable are only taken advantage by ministers.
“I don’t like religion, it’s true purpose always gets skewed by those who are in a position to take advantage of the vulnerablity of others. Power and money can be so corrupting.
Posted by: Mary Caruso | December 15, 2007 at 10:02 AM
Having been raised in the church and still in it after 44 years of marriage I see a different side than you do. Many TV evangelists turn me off right before I turn them off. But many good ministers are out there also. Rick Warren lives a very simplistic lifestyle much like Billy Graham.
I don’t know much about Olsteen so can comment on him. It just amazes me that those on this blog who tell us how we should be more tolerant about everything else are the most intolerant of an entire class of people, Christians. Just MOHO.
For the most part Tom, good Pastors never “toot their own horn” to show how ethical or moral they are.
those on this blog who tell us how we should be more tolerant about everything else are the most intolerant of an entire class of people, ChristiansPosted by: ksgrm | December 15, 2007 at 01:25 PM
Ksgrm,
I’m intolerant of con men and crooks. It doesn’t matter what faith that pretend to have. They’re con men and crooks.
One of the strengths of Joel Osteen is that he is a positive person. He approaches all things from that bias. I try to do the same. For instance, I will believe that you are a man of integrity, Tom, until you prove otherwise. Is that a bad assumption?
I have a brother in law in Arkansas who has been a Christian minister for many years. He has also driven a school bus for those many years to support his family. People like him are the typical ministers I meet. The Richard Roberts, Bennie Hins, Jimmy Haggarts are the noisy wheels that get the attention and condemination. They aren’t typical of the entire profession.
Outlander,
You’ve either intentionally or accidentally missed or forgotten the point. Once again:
============
Osteen refuses to condemn the targets of Grassley’s inquiry, or Richard Roberts, who stepped down as president of Oral Roberts University in Oklahoma City amid charges that he used school funds and facilities for his family.
“While I never like to hear negative things about friends and other ministers, I choose to believe the very best in them,” said Osteen. “I believe them all to be people of integrity.”
=========
Olsteen has reason to “believe otherwise.” Yet he calls Roberts a man “of integrity.”
Tom: How many nits you got in that sack?
Great, Outlander. You can’t dispute what I’m saying, so you attack me personally.
::huge effin’ eyeroll::
Well, I don’t think we are going to convince Tom of anything as long as his view is with a jaundiced approach.
My personal experiences with Pastors has been almost always a good experience. Good men leading simple and humble lives, sacrificing much to deliver the word of God.
I have “known of” some real scoundrels who professed to be Ministers of Faith, but were nothing more than “Carnies” selling snake oil.
One thing is for sure, it’s not fair to judge a whole group of people on what the Press reports as sensational news.
That wasn’t an attack Tom, it was an observation that you are nitpicking the subject, which of course, you are.
The church is already there.
Churches get minimal use.
Why wouldn’t the minister live there?
Trollboy,
I also know many pastors who are good men, AND good women, living simple and humble lives. Don’t twist my words or make up crap I didn’t say. I’m critical of Olsteen for giving an ethical “pass” to one of his fellow televangelists, even though Roberts ADMITTED abusing his position of faith and trust. Roberts is NOT a man of integrity, and it’s disturbing that Olsteen says he is. It’s even more disturbing how many otherwise good Christians continue to look the other way when men such as Roberts continue to rob people.
Roberts admitted nothing Tom.
Also Tom, I notice that you don’t seem to have any qualms about judging others though. But that’s OK. If you are not a Christian, you are not bound by that admonition. It’s just that we have no common ground to discuss morality. Nuff said.
J R — Some churches have a Parsonage or Rectory that is actually a part of the Church complex… Such as some Roman Catholics or Episcopalians… aand I’ve even seen a few Lutheran Parsonages that were a part of the total Church Complex.
MOST parsonages and rectories are separate facilities… normal houses… many are located next door to the Church or across the street. That is so they are close to the Church complex.
Others arent close to the Church complex at all. It depends on what the desires of the Congregation are… not the wishes of the Pastor.
Some congregations offer aa “housing allowance” as part of their contract. Some even offer either a housing allowance, OR a parsonage. Again, depends on the size/capability of the congregation.
I have served in both kinds. As for moving, well, when you finish in one parish, you move on… The congregation you leave begins a search process(unless it is a Methodist, or Catholic parish) The former pastor moves to a new situation, and carries on at that place.
The parish left behind works through a search process, usually with an Interim Pastor for their transition time… sometimes not.
Outlander, are you saying that only Christians can discuss Morality? I’m not clear about what you said there..
Ahhhh, I just LOVE modern-day, so-called “conservatives.” Outlander has just decided I’m not Christian enough to have a conversation with him.
Good effin’ grief.
Chas,
Looks like I’ve been “judged.”
Heh.
That’s what I was thinking, Tom…
But, no answer so far!
Time to leave this thread, the Secular apologists are out in force. :)
“Outlander has just decided I’m not Christian enough to have a conversation with him.”
Uh no Tom. In case you were asleep earlier, I have noted that you think it is OK to judge another person’s heart. In fact, you have stated that Pastor Osteen had a duty to do so. So, what you are doing is encouraging Pastor Osteen to sin.
You are a secularist and do not subscribe to the same values that Christians do. Of course you know all that Tom, which is why we have no common ground. And it is also why this discussion is over.
In what the practice of religion is.
“The First Amendment to the U.S. Constitution provides that “Congress shall make no law respecting the establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof….” The language is commonly referred to as the Establishment Clause and the Free Exercise Clause. The two clauses serve to balance the collective freedom so that the government may neither coerce nor prohibit citizens’ participation in religion.”
Since taking office in 2000, President George W. Bush has implemented the Faith-Based Initiative, which has brought several First Amendment issues to the court. The Faith-Based Initiative, created and developed by Executive Orders, allows non-governmental community organizations, including religious groups, to compete for public funding to religious organizations with a social purpose.More recent legislation provides for a voucher program for private schools, including religious schools.
“In light of the Senate inquiry into the lavish spending by some ministry leaders, including private jets and Rolls-Royces.”I do not see how money is regarded as part of a religion or a violation of the practice of religion.IMOO, I think some of these ministers and their followers are in for some serious violations of the Executive Orders unless they can prove what their social purpose is.
Careful, Wiseman, you’ll be accused of judging others for their bad behavior and illegal acts.
Outlander,
I never said Olsteen had a duty to pass judgment on others. I *do* say he’s guilty of giving Roberts and other and ethical “pass” by calling them “men of integrity,” even when the facts clearly show otherwise. Again: I find that disturbing.
I also find it disturbing that you’re so quick to mischaracterize and misquote what I’ve posted.
Do you think that what Roberts is accused of doing is somehow ethical?
One of the strengths of Joel Osteen is that he is a positive person. He approaches all things from that bias. I try to do the same. For instance, I will believe that you are a man of integrity, Tom, until you prove otherwise. Is that a bad assumption?
Posted by: outlander | December 15, 2007 at 01:31 PM————-
Answer that first Tom.
Outlander,
I *did* answer that. The people of whom Olsteen speaks have proven they lack the integrity to be careful stewards of the donations they receive. Yet Olsteen calls them “men of integrity.”
And what you believe about me is your own business. I will tell you, though, that some of your statements about who and what kind of person you think I am are pretty far off the mark. Not that it matters. :)
…and furthermore:
Against Christ’s admonition about judging others, Olsteen DID judge them.
Please see my point upthread about that verse being quoted only when the quoter doesn’t like the judgment being rendered. Then put your statements (and judgments) about me in that context.
Have a lovely evening, folks. I have things to do.
pot meet kettle…
Tracy,”Can’t help but think about this when I see the diamond commercials over and over trying to make me feel guilty because I’m a bad hubby for not being wealthy enough for diamonds.”
Next time you buy your wife a piece of jewelry, do the world, Jesus and yourself a favor and don’t make it a diamond. The cost (and I don’t mean the price) is just too high. Go for a colored stone- they’re prettier anyway!
Every time you buy a diamond, you feed a poor starving African kid.
Agreed, Jed.
The price of diamonds is kept artificially high by big monopolistic firms like De Beers.
Diamonds aren’t even all that rare.
A good ruby . . . now that’s rare.
Outander, I gather that yu dont feel Richard Roberts or his wife have done anything wrong regarding the financial assets of the ministry in Tulsa.
Upon looking at that situation, it doesnt take a Christian to determine that funds were appropriated improperly. Some things simply dont need religion to determine right and wrong.
Christian or otherwise, Roberts and his Wife absconded with ministry funds, for personal benefit!
Christian or otherwise, that is just wrong!
Cap’n,Take it a step further- there are exquisite lab-grown rubies, sapphires, emeralds and opals available that aren’t financing anybody’s revolution, jihad or criminal conspiracy, and are available almost anywhere.
When I say I don’t like religion, Ksgrm, I’m not just talking about the Christian religion, but all religions. Everytime I hear some religious leader preaching about what God wants for us, like he has a direct line to God, all I hear is the arrogance of a know-it-all who doesn’t really have a clue. No one knows who or what God is, that’s why religion always humanizes the concept of God, so we can visualize an image we can understand. One religion is the same as the next, only the dogma is different. From the beginning of time, too often men have been controlled, used, and manipulated by those who profess to know “God’s truth”. It’s just another form of power and control. I’m not saying that there are no humble and sincere people in the ministry, but they are often overshadowed by those who use religion for their own selfish purpose.
“Outander, I gather that you don’t feel Richard Roberts or his wife have done anything wrong regarding the financial assets of the ministry in Tulsa.”
—————–
Not up to me, Chas. I wasn’t there, I don’t know. Those folks will just have to get along without my opinion.
You can have my proxy vote though.
“Against Christ’s admonition about judging others, Olsteen DID judge them.” – Tom
———
The judging Tom, cautioned against in the earlier scripture quote, is negative judgment. Believing in someone doesn’t qualify.
What some folks will do to attempt to win a debate.
The price of diamonds is kept artificially high by big monopolistic firms like De Beers.
Diamonds aren’t even all that rare.Posted by: CapnAmerica | December 15, 2007 at 04:26 PM
there are exquisite lab-grown rubies, sapphires, emeralds and opals available that aren’t financing anybody’s revolution, jihad or criminal conspiracy, and are available almost anywhere.
Posted by: Jed | December 15, 2007 at 09:02 PM
Very interesting subject, guys. Wouldn’t that make for an interesting thread.
Jed, have you seen the latest in man-made diamonds?
Love defined by and reduced to a shiny little rock or a manufactured shiny little rock.
Sigh….
Heh JR, I’VE not reduced love to a shiny little rock!
I’ve reduced love to a new tractor.
Preferably in a nice shade of blue…
XXX,”Jed, have you seen the latest in man-made diamonds?”
Yes I have, but I’m not particularly partial to white diamonds. I’m an artist, so I enjoy all the things that can be done with color. If you want both color and fire, some of the better Russian colored CZ’s have more fire than diamonds, assuming they’re well cut (some aren’t).
My personal favorites are Chatham Emeralds, but I’ve used some lab-grown rubies with just a hint of purple that are astonishing.
Yes I have, but I’m not particularly partial to white diamonds. I’m an artist, so I enjoy all the things that can be done with color.
Posted by: Jed | December 16, 2007 at 03:25 PM
I don’t claim to be an artist, but I can make white diamonds using gem shaders in my 3D Computer Generated applications.
I can make white diamonds with legs that run and sing dixie if I want. :D
Kans,I thought “Legs” Diamond was a gangster who wouldn’t have sung dixie even with a gun to his head.