Some of Kansas’ top political leaders are working in the dark when it comes to the science of climate change, judging by a revealing article in the Salina Journal. Senate President Steve Morris, R-Hugoton (in photo), speaking of the existing Holcomb coal-fired plant, said, “I’ve never, ever felt there was a damaging presence of anything from that plant.â€
Nothing but positive vibes.
House Speaker Melvin Neufeld, R-Ingalls, was equally at peace with fossil fuels.
Turns out there might be a reason these leaders aren’t convinced or concerned about climate change — they’re uninformed.
Morris admitted that he hadn’t read any of the authoritative summaries from the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change, the most recent of which concluded with “very high confidence†that human behavior is driving global warming and warned of the need for urgent government action to reduce greenhouse gases.
Neufeld allowed that he had “scanned over some of those.â€
Scanned? Shouldn’t we expect a little more intellectual curiosity from state leaders on so crucial a topic?
Posted by Randy Scholfield
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104 Comments
Oh come on! They are just politicans. The best western Kansas has to offer. Besides, the coal industry will tell these guys what they want to hear and all they need to know.
Anyone surprised?
The cited idiots have an R after their name.
THAT means that to them, global warming is something ya don’t talk think, or heaven forbid INFORM yourself about.
Rush told ‘em so.
“In Kansas, we actually take more CO2 out of the air than we put in,” he said. “So we’re a net user of CO2. Every bushel of grain … removes carbon from the atmosphere and puts oxygen back in. That’s how the system works. God created a system that has balance and it works. The fact is, in the United States we are actually net users: we use more carbon dioxide than we emit.”
Only a Republican could be stupid enough to say a thing like that.
Yeah snuffy he left the barn door open on that one.”God created a system that has balance and it works.’
I don’t know that God had coal fired power plants, millions of automobiles, and a population of 7+ billion written into the equation.
Maybe further explanation is required? Or does God move in strange and mysterious ways known only to Republicans?
Our leaders might not know science, but by God, they know God’s workings!
Who was it, Nathan saying the other day we need to put our trust in our State leaders to make the right decisions? So much for that.
Maybe Kansas could collect royalties on our net carbon deficit, sell them to place like California.
Actually, most Kansans like myself were more concerned about mercury contamination and the direct effects of contamination and the unnecessary use of the water aquifer than the “Man made Global Warming scare.”
We also questioned why the other states weren’t taking in the coal plant as they would be the one to benefit, not Kansas.
Evidently, there are no alarm bells sounding off in Colorado or Oklahoma for global warming either.
It is for the purposes as I described above, mercury, pollution and aquifer use.
I’ve read the summaries and the papers of the scientists of the Kyoto Protocol and the science is far from being settled or decided.
In fact, the Climate Models on which the GW Alarmists use are so incomplete they can’t even calculate the largest greenhouse gas, water vapor.
There are many other things the GW Alarimist can’t figure out either and that’s the oscillation (ENSO/El Nino/La Ninja) and how it precisely drives the climate in the Northern Hemisphere.
So, let’s not assume that Manmade Global Warming was the concern in building the Coal Plant, it wasn’t.
kansas – while you are probably correct that most Kansans are more concerned with mercury and water than anthropogenic climate change the vast majority of Kansas SCIENTISTS reverse the order. We are concerned with ALL of the effects.
Mercury isn’t going to fall out of the heavens because of a coal plant! I have it on sound advice, mercury is securely in orbit! Duh.
True Ben, but I’m not a Scientist and can’t speak for them.
If the plant already has three strikes against it, why change the rules in the middle of the game and invoke a new rule that says there is a fourth strike?
It is irrelevant and there are other things that Kansas is doing to help address the GW issue. Although, I wouldn’t count “ethanol” production as one of them.
Global Warming is the new WMD.
Based on inconclusive politically biased evidence:
WE MUST TAKE URGENT ACTION NOW!!!
Then, let it proven later…
Let it be proven later…
China is the number one threat then!
Here’s the history of the Kyoto Treaty which the Global Warming movement gets it’s teeth.
President Clinton, who is a pretty smart guy didn’t send the treaty to be ratified by the Senate in 1997.
From Wikipedia:”The United States (U.S.), although a signatory to the Kyoto Protocol, has neither ratified nor withdrawn from the Protocol. The signature alone is symbolic, as the Kyoto Protocol is non-binding on the United States unless ratified. The United States was, as of 2005, the largest single emitter of carbon dioxide from the burning of fossil fuels.[64] China was projected to take over at the top of the table by late 2007,[65] but one study now concludes this has already occurred.[47]
On July 25, 1997, before the Kyoto Protocol was finalized (although it had been fully negotiated, and a penultimate draft was finished), the U.S. Senate unanimously passed by a 95–0 vote the Byrd-Hagel Resolution (S. Res. 98),[66][67] which stated the sense of the Senate was that the United States should not be a signatory to any protocol that did not include binding targets and timetables for developing as well as industrialized nations or “would result in serious harm to the economy of the United States”. On November 12, 1998, Vice President Al Gore symbolically signed the protocol. Both Gore and Senator Joseph Lieberman indicated that the protocol would not be acted upon in the Senate until there was participation by the developing nations.[68] The Clinton Administration never submitted the protocol to the Senate for ratification.”
The Kyoto Treaty is a flawed document along with the methods and means being institutionalized by the “carbon credit” crowd. The carbon credit trading is the biggest Ponzi Scheme ever developed.
(A Ponzi scheme is a fraudulent investment operation that involves paying abnormally high returns (”profits”) to investors out of the money paid in by subsequent investors, rather than from net revenues generated by any real business. It is named after Charles Ponzi.[1]“
“China is the number one threat then!”-Phantom
For being the greatest ecological polluter on the planet? That is proven!
“Only 1 percent of the [China's] 560 million city dwellers breathe air considered safe by the European Union.”
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/08/26/world/asia/26china.html
================================
Were humans the cause of the end of the ice age and the major warming that melted lower North America’s glaciers, 10000 years ago? Hmmmmmmm.
China might be the largest polluter in some aspects but it still lags the US in CO2. And, on a per capita basis, it lags BY FAR.
This is not to say we don’t need to work to get Chine (and India) on board; however using false statements is not useful.
One BIG concern with China is that the magnitude of their pollution now exceeds the ability of the atmosphere to cleanse itself crossing the Pacific. And, as we deplete hydroxyl radical (a cleansing mechanism) pollutants will build up further.
Angel – NO. And nobody has ever claimed such. If you read the literature in the field you would know that.
20 years ago the hysterical crowd were screaming about Global Cooling. This is yet another scam to bilk people out of money and put certain people into power.
One day God’s going to look down and say, “I have had enough.” I hope it’s soon.
Politicians don’t study up on anything else, why should we expect them to study global warming?
We expect our politicians to be stupid. That’s the dumming down of America effect.
Do politicians study Economics or Accounting? Heck no! If they did, we might see government spending under control. They might also then know that Socialist economic policies will destroy the American economy.
Do politicians study Education? Heck no! If they did, we might see something other than “throw more money at the problem” to improve education.
Do politicians study Energy & the Environment? Heck no! If they did, we might have some long-term alternative energy solutions, land conservation, pollution reduction, plans already implemented.
Do politicians study Ethics? Heck no! If they did, we wouldn’t have a bund of lying, bribe-taking, scumbags for politicians!
We don’t really elect intelligent, informed, experts, and leaders as politicians.
We elect politicians based on party affiliation, sound bytes, good-looks, and how they make us feel. We elect mush, and that’s what we get out of government – mush.
“20 years ago the hysterical crowd were screaming about Global Cooling”
NOT TRUE! A single story in a popular magazine hardly constitutes a ‘hysterical crowd. In particular, the scientific literature was NOT saying anything at all like that.
And, if I remember correctly, the story itself didn’t “scream global cooling”
Ben,I did not say that China was the largest polluter on a per capita basis. I also did not say that China emits more CO2 than the USA. So which statement of mine is false again?
While the USA does emit more CO2 than China, China (as a whole) pollutes more then any other country in areas that are actually proven to be immediately harmfull to humans and the environment.
I didn’t say your statement was false; however there have been others who have claimed that China has become #1 on CO2.
They ARE #1 in CO; HCs; particulates; mercury; and a whole host of other garbage. Thus my comment about transiting the Pacific and hydroxyl.
Randy
IF we did EVERYTHING that the chicken-little “global warming” propagandists told us to do, in America, how much would all of those measures affect global temperatures?
Not even a degree!
This is ridiculous.
China will never follow any “carbon treaty” or global warming plan.
India, likewise, will never follow any carbon mandates.
Hell, even Europe, which signed on to the KYOTO treaty, can not meet the Kyoto mandates.
The entire purpose of “Global Warming” hype is to raise taxes, pass regulations, and “slow” the growth of the industrialized West.
It doesnt really matter if man IS changing the climate or not.
The bottom line is: Nothing we do can stop that change!
However, the Global Warming alarmists are hell-bent on ruining our enconomy and forcing us to live by stupid rules, anyway, even if their plans wont make a bit of difference.
By the way, if America uses less oil, it will only reduce the price of oil, or slow any future increase in the price of oil.
Supply and demand will kick in.
If the US takes the price down, world demand will take up the slack.
The result?
No net change in oil use!
I’m gonna WALK to the store today just for you pauliecon.
Paul – I’m glad to learn that a freshman course in economics teaches more science than graduate degress in science does.
Ben
Economics is more about psychology than it is about math.
People will not be forced to do things that dont make sense, for them.
Much of the world is starving to death or freezing to death.
The threat, to them, is real and immediate, not some futuristic projection.
We can not do ANYTHING to stop the use of carbon, on a global basis. We can do very little to even slow down the use of carbon.
It will require a shooting war to force the world to agree to the changes you want to force upon us.
The world will not submit.—–Now, having said that, I am all for alternatives to oil.My motivation is to defund terrorists and tyrants.
However, I am not willing to subsitute your tyrants in lab-coats for terrorists in turbins.
The public, worldwide, will resist mandates.
And we should!
Even if the entire world did submit to the desires of the Greens, it would not make a bit of difference, anyway.
And, the world will NOT submit!
If Kansas’ top political leaders don’t want to learn about climate science, they should at least pay attention to what’s happening in Bali.
‘Gore Beats Bush as Bali Talks Embrace Nobel Winner’s Agenda’http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601103&sid=aBARyx.q9pm4&refer=us
“The entire purpose of “Global Warming” hype is to raise taxes, pass regulations, and “slow” the growth of the industrialized West.”
Regardless of what or who is causing global warming, it is happening. There may not be a war over oil; there will be wars over farm land, water, and energy (Mexico could become a dust bowl). So planning for it, instead of this bickering, is what needs to be done.
If man can’t stop global warming, he IS doomed if he doesn’t plan for it.
If the warming continues, the current green belt in this country could move up as far as canada. What we need to do is start engineering warm weather crops, major conservation of water resources, and probably major changes in the countries power grid.
“The world will not submit….And, the world will NOT submit!”
Posted by: Econ101 | December 05, 2007 at 11:35 AM
The biggest businesses in the world say that econ101 is wrong. It’s econ101 against GE, Chevron, Lehman Brothers, Dow Chemical, etc.
Also Arnold Schwarzenegger, many other governors, and other politicians.
Poor econ101’s uninformed, inaccurate rants about climate science, etc, on this blog are not going to change their minds.
“One day God’s going to look down and say, “I have had enough.” I hope it’s soon.”
I do too semenhair. Hopefully He will provide us with an alternative to burning fossil fuels for energy.
Yeah Econ101 you’re wrong becauseCosmos submits.
After reading the latest talking points from Bali, he gave me his car to get the guilt of adding CO2 to the atmsophere off of his hands.
-I’m kidding of course. Cosmos loves his little 35 mpg carbon emitter. He would never part with it. He will never fully submit no matter what the CEO of GE says.
I do agree with some of Econ101’s sentiments on global warming.
“It doesnt really matter if man IS changing the climate or not.”I have preached this over and over. The cause does not matter. There is plenty of evidence to show it IS happening.
And as Stumper noted, the constant disputes over who is at fault only distract from any ability to actually work proactively to adjust to a climate change.
I also agree with Econ’s thoughts that Americans cannot do anything material to prevent or stop GW.We could stop using oil today and the price would still keep rising due to worldwide demand growth. We could stop using oil today and the level of worldwide pollution from burning fossil fuels would still grow due to worldwide demand.
Remember the business jet is a great source of CO2.
Most do not know the natural gas fired electric power plants emit carbon monoxide in great amounts. We also are doing great polution burning ethanol in cars.
My suggestion is to buy electricity from China. Have them build power plants and transmission lines to us.
Remember the business jet is a great source of CO2.
Most do not know the natural gas fired electric power plants emit carbon monoxide in great amounts. We also are doing great polution burning ethanol in cars.
My suggestion is to buy electricity from China. Have them build power plants and transmission lines to us.
By the way, you greenies need to get your comrades, down in Texas, to quit taking wind mill farms to court:
http://www.statesman.com/business/content/business/stories/other/12/05/1205wind.html
CO2 can stay in the atmosphere for a century or longer.
Considering that time factor, the U.S. has contributed about 30.3% of the world’s CO2 from fossil fuel burning.
All of China, India AND developing Asia contributed only about 12.2%.
A proportional global map of 1900-1999 CO2 contributions,http://earthtrends.wri.org/text/climate-atmosphere/map-488.html
I’m turning my thermostat down to 65 just for you paulecon.
Paul – I also know about Econ – they made us do a lot of that in B-school. Especially decision-making aspects and game theory. That is why internalizing costs is so important.
brian – it IS important to understand WHY it is happening so that we not only try to adapt but also try to ameliorate the problem.
“Much of the world is starving to death” And THAT is getting worse NOW as a result of changes in rainfall patterns.
“tyrants in lab-coats” Cute Paul – typical know-nothing response. “I refuse to accept reality because I don’t like reality”
Fifteen THOUSAND global warmist government flacks on the taxpayer’s dimes, plus thousands of journalists and lobbyists< jetted to tropical Bali to stroke their expense accounts, in the process emitting over 100 THOUSANDS TONS of carbon in travel emissions alone.
They’re having to shuffle the private jets off to other islands because they don’t remotely have enough room to park them.
I’ll believe it’s a crisis when those who say it’s a crisis start acting like it’s a crisis–and not a business opportunity and/or ego trip.
Paul – I don’t have any ‘comrades’ in Texas. Cute use of the terminology though; typical of you and your fellow-travelers.
My COLLEAGUES are promoting wind farms.
cosmos
HUH?The fact that American has used quite a bit of carbon, in the past, is important, why?
My point is that, no matter what America does in the future, NOBODY can stop, or even slow, WORLD carbon use, in the future.
And Cosmos
C02 is constantly being created, used, broken down and recreated, as a part of nature.
There is no way that you can show how much of the CO2, currently in the air, is from the United States.
“My suggestion is to buy electricity from China. Have them build power plants and transmission lines to us.”
Posted by: Allgoar | December 05, 2007 at 12:18 PM
Good luck with that.
My suggestion is higher energy efficiency, aka “negawatts”.
And distributed resources, to reduce losses in transmission lines, eliminate cost of oversized central plants, etc.
http://www.smallisprofitable.org/
2006 Oil and Gas campaign contribuitons to Melvin Neufeld:
KOCH INDUSTRIES $500 12/23/2005EXXONMOBIL $500 11/20/2006KOCH INDUSTRIES $500 11/04/2006BP NORTH AMERICA $300 10/20/2006ANADARKO PETROLEUM $250 10/26/2006PIONEER NATURAL RESOURCES USA $200 12/27/2005NATIONAL COOPERATIVE REFINERY ASSOC $200 07/19/2006OCCIDENTAL PETROLEUM $200 11/25/2005NATIONAL COOPERATIVE REFINERY ASSOC $200 11/25/2005OCCIDENTAL OIL & GAS CORP $200 08/03/2006DAMAR RESOURCES $50 07/15/2006LARIO OIL & GAS $50 07/18/2006MCCOY, KEVIN $50 08/03/2006PETROLEUM TECHNOLOGIES $50 8/03/06PARRISH JR, LLOY & K $50 07/15/2006MCCOY, ROGER $50 07/15/2006HESS, JAMES H $50 07/15/2006NOVY OIL & GAS $50 07/15/2006JOHN O FARMER $50 07/15/2006
Paul – even in freshman econ they taught that if I make just a little more than I spend I can accumulate some money. It is that differential that makes it work. THAT is what is happening with anthropogenic CO2. We can add to that the isotopic signature of fossil carbon.
KANSAS CONTRACTORS ASSOC $500 08/25/2005KANSAS CONTRACTORS ASSOC $500 09/22/2006BUILDERS ASSOC $500 10/07/2006BUILDERS ASSOC OF KANSAS $300 10/20/2006FERRELL CONSTRUCTION $250 12/22/2006BUILDERS ASSOC OF KANSAS $250 12/29/2006ASSOCIATED BUILDERS & CONTRACTORS HEART OF AMERICA CHAPTER/ABC $250 12/27/2005ASSOCIATED BUILDERS & CONTRACTORS INC HEART OF AMERICA $150 10/26/2006BUILDERS ASSOC OF KANSAS $100 12/30/2005
More troubling news from the democrat lead congress:Pelosi to Forge Ahead With $21 Billion Tax Package
“As its centerpiece, the bill would require automakers to increase fuel efficiency for cars, pickup trucks and SUVs to an average of 35 miles per gallon by 2020, the first increase in the federal auto fuel economy standard in 32 years.”
Whoopee. I get 45 MPG with my Honda today. Honda and Toyota (together worlds biggest auto manufacturer/sales), cannot keep their hybrids in stock. So Congress decides to give the big three dying US automakers 13 YEARS TO NOT EVEN REACH THE AUTO’S ON THE ROADS TODAY!!!!!!
Might as well kiss those last remaining union jobs away. They will not compete if they wait 13 years.
“It also would require a huge ramp up in the use of ethanol — both from corn and cellulosic material such as prairie grass and wood chips — over the next 15 years to 36 billion gallons a year by 2022, a sevenfold increase from today.”
Not only does ethanol provide me LOWER MPG, it is costly and not efficient to produce. Big mistake.You also ensure the grocery bills for Americans escalate with corns increased price/demand. And Americans are subsidizing all this nonsense – to produce an inefficient fuel source and pay more for groceries.
econ101,
Don’t you ever get tired of being wrong?
We have stats on how much coal, oil, etc the U.S., China, and others have burned since 1900. We CAN calculate how much CO2 humans (not nature) have added to Earth’s atmosphere.
Oil & Gas contributions to Senator Stephen Morris, 2004 campaign:
KOCH INDUSTRIES $1,000 10/25/2004EXXONMOBIL $750 11/27/2004KOCH INDUSTRIES $650 12/19/2003EXXONMOBIL $500 12/26/2003BP NORTH AMERICA $500 11/25/2003OCCIDENTAL OIL & GAS CORP $400 10/18/2004OCCIDENTAL PETROLEUM $400 12/19/2003KANSAS PETROLEUM MARKETERS & CONVENIENCE STORE ASSOC $250 08/19/2003NATIONAL COOPERATIVE REFINERY ASSOC $250 07/22/2004EL PASO ENERGY $250 10/25/2004PROPANE MARKETERS ASSOC $200 10/02/2004NATIONAL COOPERATIVE REFINERY ASSOC $200 11/25/2003NATIONAL COOPERATIVE REFINERY ASSOC $200 12/16/2003ATMOS ENERGY $200 10/25/2004BP NORTH AMERICA $75 10/25/2004MCCOY PETROLEUM CORP $50 12/19/2003DR LAUCK OIL CO $50 11/13/2003DR LAUCK OIL CO $50 11/23/2003
AmWay – the real future for ethanol is cellulosic. Hopefully the research being done by ICM will pave the way for that.
Contractor contributions to Sen. Steve Morris’s 2004 campaign:
HEAVY CONSTRUCTORS ASSOC OF THE GREATER KANSAS CITY AREA $1,000 10/09/2004KANSAS CONTRACTORS ASSOC $1,000 09/11/2004KANSAS CONTRACTORS ASSOC $500 07/31/2003BUILDERS ASSOC $250 10/02/2004ASSOCIATED GENERAL CONTRACTORS OF KANSAS/AGC $200 12/31/2003ASSOCIATED GENERAL CONTRACTORS OF KANSAS/AGC $200 10/25/2004HEAVY CONSTRUCTORS ASSOC OF THE GREATER KANSAS CITY AREA $150 07/01/2004DUSTROL INC $100 10/02/2004NR HAMM QUARRY $100 10/02/2004KOSS CONSTRUCTION $100 10/02/2004BUILDERS ASSOC OF KANSAS $100 11/18/2004ODONNELL CONSTRUCTION SERVICES $100 08/19/2003SHERWOOD CONSTRUCTION CO $100 10/02/2004BOB BERGKAMP CONSTRUCTION CO $100 10/02/2004BRB CONTRACTORS $100 10/02/2004ASSOCIATED GENERAL CONTRACTORS OF KANSAS/AGC $100 08/02/2004BEACHNER CONSTRUCTION CO $100 10/02/2004CLARKSON CONSTRUCTION $100 10/02/2004
Want to know who owns “YOUR” legislator?
http://www.followthemoney.org
Econ101, your logic is faulty. You continue to justify inaction by pointing to the anticipated inaction of others. This is how a child argues.
I have heard of “prolls”.
These are bloggers paid to come to forums like this one and post.
econpaul is SO on message with fossil fuels, it is fair to suggest he is such a poster.
Boy they aint getting their money’s worth.
Conservation and innovation are in econ.
The fossil fuel age won’t leave us. We will leave it.
Just like we left steam engines and whale oil.
Kindly get out of the way of what is good for Americans. They won’t listen to you anymore.
JR, judging by the coal industry ads Paul probably is paid to create the ads as well as post their BS propaganda here.
econ101,
Are you claiming that Blackburn’s statement is inaccurate? If so, your proof?
http://www.statesman.com/business/content/business/stories/other/12/05/1205wind.html
“Houston lawyer Jim Blackburn, the coastal alliance’s lead lawyer, said the federal coastal management act “mandates that Texas must conduct environmental assessments of all energy projects, including wind, in order to receive federal money.”
Yeah Doug
I mean there is no ….depth to the guy. No nuance. No wrinkle or quirk.
Just down the line shilling.
NO MANDATES
That is my message.
If you can come up with alternatives, fine, do so.
Just, please, do not claim that anything you try to mandate will have even the slightest impact on global temperatures.
You can’t do anything about it.
You can “try” — just like you can try to empty the oceans with a thimble.
This is silly. Even the most optimistic projections from the greens do NOT show any real impact on global temperature, if we do everything that you greens want.
Cost / Benefit analysis is a very advanced method for making decisions.
You greens present inflated, fear generating “costs” of doing nothing.
You greens then underestimate the economic costs of your remedies.
You greens almost NEVER show us your projections of what we might accomplish, even if we swallowed all of your propaganda and did what you told us to do.
The “remedy” is worse than the “disease” — and the remedy wont work anyway.
Paul – scientists disagree with you; even those of us who have MBAs.
A good video re taking action to reduce anthropogenic global warming.
(But I’d argue that higher energy efficiency, and other solutions are actually cheaper than the status quo.)
‘Most Terrifying Video You’ll Ever See’http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bDsIFspVzfI
H/T to http://desmogblog.com/
Paul, do you get paid by the word or by the number of times you post?
econ101,
You really should read all of the “greens”(sic) reports at http://www.ipcc.ch/
Your false statements and ignorance are very tiresome.
Cosmos – as I have noted before I would add nuclear to your mix – globally. However, other than that we are not terribly far apart.
Do you people really believe what you write? Are you really that stupid or are you simply being dishonest? Why do you continue to say this is a republican only issue? Anyone heard Rep. Ebber Phelps(D) comments on this issue? Talk to elected democrats in this state and they resent the hell out of good ol’ kathy and turncoat mark. They are pissed as hell that she turned this plant down, fired a great medical chief, and pulled in a republican turncoat to be her number 2. Ask the House minority leader what he thinks when there is no press around… You should either get educated or stop posting your B.S. on this blog!
As always, I depart from the single based phenomena that anthropogenic co2 rise is the primary cause for Climate Change/Global Warming.
To legislate co2 as a single cause entity that can control climate must be a Climatologists dream.
Someone would be working on some massive co2 pump controlling mechanism so we can control our future climate.
It would easy to believe if it were that simple.
There’s more to Climate Change than anthropogenic co2.
I find it analogous of throwing a hot cup of coffee in a swimming pool.
Scientists can’t even be sure of the co2 lagging behind temperature theories because the data model used are ice core samples taken from a specific region and they do not reflect global climate.
So, who is to say co2 lags behind temperature change is not correct?
Even the most celebrated scientists know that Earth orbit, Milankovitch cycles are not completely understood how they affect climate.
The La Ninja and El Ninjo cycles are not even completely understood, yet they influence two hemispheres of the earth.
co2 is a very small predictor in the grand scheme of climate change in my opinion.
co2 has been tested a lot, but out of full climate condition. To me, that is not science, that is correlation based on speculative assumption because too many factors are simply ignored or left out.
Kansas – you are wrong in this scientist’s professional opinion. We have a lot more understanding than you give us credit for.
Jeff – you are correct that there are also a lot of dems on the denier side; that changes nothing in regards to the science.
“Someone would be working on some massive co2 pump controlling mechanism so we can control our future climate.”Google it, I believe there are many carbon dioxide scrubber projects in the works, think I heard someon (Branson) offering multi million dollar reward should someone develop a practical method.
Sunflower electric is based in eber phelps district. And Janis Lee’s.
Ask some democrat who is NOT beholdin’ to Hays what they think about the coal fired plant.
Duh.
If I’m not mistaken in memory, I’ve read that Anthropogenic Scientists state if we stopped all petroleum based product use of today, they THINK the process could be reversed in fifty years.
That is to say, they really don’t know for sure.
Which means, the puny methods that is being sold to the public will go well beyond to so-called tipping point time scale and be ineffective anyway.
Which is another way of saying, that scientists are not even fifty percent confident in the goods they are selling but want us to buy it anyway?
“-scientists disagree with you; even those of us who have MBAs.”
Having credentials does not mean that every theory should be swallowed whole.Scientists who propose “most plausible explanations” are not basing their conclusions on observable data. Therefore, their conclusions are food for thought and not hard packed orders to follow.
If only facts fully supported the idea that gobal warming is from anthropogenic emissions, more people would accept that conclusion. But even the most ardent Human caused GW’ist will admit that they do not know that human CO2 is causing GW without any uncertainty (unless they are politically biased).
Its just not in the data and many scientist do agree with that assesment as well.
Scientists who propose “most plausible explanations” are not basing their conclusions on observable data.
Correction, should read:conclusive data.
Ben,
My main objections to nuclear are that it’s more expensive, and slower than other solutions.
But with carbon emissions rising, and CO2 sinks slowing, we may have to spend the extra money.
rfl – I swallow NOTHING whole. I study the information and then reach an understanding.
rfl – I swallow NOTHING whole. I study the information and then reach an understanding.
Posted by: Ben | December 05, 2007 at 02:51 PM
Carbonation is not a good thing to swallow in excess anyway. :D
Christmas gift giving ideas – for the poorly read state legislator.
Are the authoritative summaries from the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change available on CD? Neufeld and Morris could make better use of the drive back and forth to Topeka by listening to the summaries.
They love fossil fuels because they are fossils.
A few quotes form scientists who flew to Bali for the climate change conference:
“It’s a grave crisis, and we need to do something real fast,”
“Action needs to be taken and needs to be taken now,”
“I think the stakes are way way too high to be playing around.”
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,315323,00.html
Why are they being ignored?Why is nobody giving up their cars or disconnecting their electricity?The time to do that is now (read above).
Just drive your car(s) over to my house. give me the keys, I’ll make sure they are properly disposed of. I’ll accept a fee of $10 for this service.
No global warming? The poles are melting, as well as every major ice cap. I notice fall comes after, not before Halloween. The North Pole is expected to be ice free in 20 years, except in the middle of the winter. Scientist have drilled into the ice of the South pole and found that CO2 levels have gone up every year for the last 200 years.
Only an idiot would try to deny global warming and Kansas seems to love voting in idiots to represent us.
Don’t get you panties in an up roar. Steve Morris will do exactly what the governer tells him to do.
He does not make a move without her agreeing to the move.
Okay Otto, I’ll buy you a plane ticket to somewhere near the North Pole. I’ll provide a pup tent and you can spend the winter there.
We’ll see just how toasty the North Pole area has become.
Or, perhaps only idiots would take that kind of a bet when dealing with reality of subzero temperatures. :)
Enviornment Canada has forecast the coldest winter in 15-20 years and the hole in the ozone layer over the south pole has greatly reduced in area. Both items a reversal of multi year trends which is good news, but I wonder why?
northern – do you have a link to that Canada forcast? As for the ozone ‘reversal’ that is not happening yet but we hope it will.
http://www.wunderground.com/education/holefaq.asp#howbig
“During the last decade, the average ozone hole area in the spring has increased in size, but not as rapidly as during the 1980s. It is not yet possible to say whether the area of the ozone hole has maximized. However, chlorine in the stratosphere has reached nearly constant levels and is expected to start declining, so the ozone hole may have seen its maximum size.”
The reason for the stabalization and hoped-for recovery is the CFC restrictions that finally were put into effect.
Ben,
Looks like La Nina, and perhaps temperatures 3/4ths or one degree colder than normal.
‘Coldest winter in 15 years, Environment Canada says’http://www.cbc.ca/canada/story/2007/11/30/winter-forecast.html
OttoYou have proved nothing.
Again, even if warming IS happening, that is NOT the point.
The point, the bottom line, is that we can not stop the warming.
All we can do is ruin the economy, while we do what ever the global warming chicken littles tell us to do.
Bali UN “Global Warming” summit will produce as much CO2 as 20,000 cars in one year!
http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601170&refer=home&sid=aPbfclqokwcw
What a bunch of hypocrites!
Couldn’t this “meeting” be done on personal computers, in a chat forum?
They wanted tax deductions, for the self employed, and travel and resort expenses paid, for the government employees.
Global warming is a scam!
I’m turning my thermostat down another degree today econ, just for you.
I also shut off my engine when I got stopped by a train.
I thought of you!
Conservation is in. Innovation is American and apathy is unpatriotic AND stupid.
“Global warming is a scam!”
Posted by: Econ101 | December 06, 2007 at 01:05 PM
So econ101, dazzle us with your scientific genius!
1) Refute all of the science showing that human-added CO2, methane, nitrous oxide, CFC’s, and SF6 are causing Earth’s air and oceans to warm.
2) List the natural factors that are causing the recent observed warming.
what about Austrailia backing out of the Kyoto treaty?? they had all intentions of signing it until they found out about the cost to the economies around the world.
Look you eco-dogmatists, you can quote all the ominous statistics you want to. Watch all the melting ice if you like.No matter whether the current warming data is proved to be caused by man, or wether it a normal sun or geothermal induced melting, MAN IS NOT DOOMED because of it. Refute that.
This is NOT “Global Warming Denying”… its “doomsday denying” and I will take odds against you at any casino for any length of time. AI am putting together a large pile of cash right now. Are you willing?Maybe the government rubes you point to aren’t as dumb as you think (still rubes a-course). Let the rest of the world bankrupt themselves trying to stop something that can’t be stopped.
I am for clean air, and politically robust energy supplies so I am FOR most of what the greenies want. But not for the WHY or for doomsday bankruptcy scenarios from fake (stretched data) science portrayed on a hyper-emotional platter as some new eco-religion slash science. Wake up Dorothy.
Zcat
BG,
John Howard refused to sign Kyoto — Kevin Rudd defeated Howard recently, and WILL sign Kyoto.
‘Australia’s Rudd Gets Straight to Work’http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6136972/
It’s obvious that the Wichita Eagle only want one-sided debate. Whenever several of us try to post technical counterpoints, we are rejected by the “spam” filters. Randy and the others at the Eagle must be making sure that no other scientific / technical evidence will be revealed that would break down the current “faith” in Global Warming only being caused by greenhouse gases from humans and no natural causes.
Catherine,
So the entire human population of Earth is unable to learn the truth about climate science, simply because you (and “several of us”) can’t type the letters and numbers in WE Blog’s “spam” filters?
What a horrible tragedy! /sarcasm OFF.
Catherine: “… in Global Warming only being caused by greenhouse gases from humans and no natural causes.”
Actually, “natural causes” are credited with causing a small part of the recent warming. And human caused land-use changes are also a factor.
If Catherine is such an expert on global warming, why doesn’t she know that???
“Catherine”
Is that a group or something?
The post SEEMS to speak for many.
Or it pretends to anyway.
Causes of warming?
The sunThe sunand of courseThe sun!
Poor econ101 does not seem to understand how much impact Earth’s “greenhouse effect” has on the climate.
8:45 PM post above is by cosmos.
TypeKey is again/still posting my nic as ‘blank’, when I’m signed in as cosmos.
CO2 traps radiant energy.
Idiot.
how much of that 60 degrees is caused by CO2 and how much is caused by wator vapor?
“how much of that 60 degrees is caused by CO2 and how much is caused by wator vapor?”
Posted by: swallow my nickel
Ask econ101… he seems to believe that he is an expert(sic) re climate science.
BTW: Water vapor is a feedback, and CO2 is NOT the only greenhouse gas humans have increased in Earth’s atmosphere.
Don’t worry, Paul knows as much on global warming as he does economics. Take his opinion and reverse it then you get the truth.