Wichitans know that payday loan stores have multiplied like rabbits locally. Well, Kansas Action for Children counted 436 payday and car-title lenders in the state this year, up from a mere 53 in 1993. But with the hired help of such heavyweights as former Kansas House Speaker Doug Mays and former Attorney General Bob Stephan, the industry has done an effective job so far of persuading state legislators that when it comes to such lenders, the more, the merrier. State Rep. Melody McCray-Miller, D-Wichita, plans another push to cap title-loan interest rates at 36 percent and help limit an individual’s total loans. People being preyed upon by such lenders must better plead their case in Topeka. “It’s harmful to families. It’s harmful to children. They prey upon elderly,†McCray-Miller told The Eagle editorial board. One source of hope, she said, is that credit unions and some banks are offering responsible alternatives. “That cuts through the heart of the argument that says, ‘We’re the only players on the block.’â€
Posted by Rhonda Holman
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102 Comments
Pay Day lenders are one of the oldest scams in the U.S.
The well known Bible story about the money changers comes to mind.
“The word “money changer” means money-banker or money-broker
Jesus referred to the Temple as the “House of God” and called it a “House of Prayer,” not just for the Jews, but for all nations. When Jesus arrived with the mass of pilgrims, He overturned the tables and called it a den of thieves and a house of merchandise. The Temple was in some sense the national bank. It was a great public treasury with vaults containing immense stores of private wealth. These deposits never sat idle, but were loaned at high rates of interest.
The Jewish historian Josephus wrote an account of the burning of the archives in Jerusalem and it gives an appalling picture of the incredible debts that were owed by the poor to the rich. It is believed that the intention of the burning was to ‘destroy the money-lenders’ tallies and to prevent the exaction of debts. After reading about how an infuriated mob (around 30 years later) robbed the Temple booths and dragged the sons of Annas to their death, it can only be imagined how much the Jewish authorities were hated by the humble commoners.”
http://www.bible-history.com/gentile_court/TEMPLECOURTJesus_and_the_Temple.htm
Shut them all down. I’d like to firebomb every payday lender, and this world would be a much better place. Payday lenders are among the scum of the earth. I know if I were a payday lender, I would want to commit suicide every day.
I don’t like these places.For one thing, I believe they have you write a post-dated check, and they cash it for less than the full amount.Not exactly “lending” as much as it is “check cashing” so I bet they have to work on definitions.
Most financial services are heavily regulated.
Even a free-market guy like me realizes the abuse that is out there.
However, folks, I must point out that some of you liberals on this Blog think that:
1,) Every pregnant woman can abort her child with no restrictions on the abortionist, and little assurance that the woman involved understands all of her options.
2.) Casinos and wagering are ok, without restrictions, and without recourse for those who lose money, even if mentally unstable, and without a warning about the horrible odds
Just seems a bit hypocritical.
We won’t stop they from loosing the mortage at the casino.
We won’t stop them from getting an abortion.
But, we will stop them from getting a “pay day advance” to pay the mortgage, or to pay for the abortion, because:
We are smarter than they are, and they need our help!
Rather twisted logic, really.
I am really surprised that pauliecon is not INVESTED in the payday loan thing.
I bet he is.
People who have a little money exploiting those with no money.
I could do it.
But I like being able to look myself in the mirror.
payday and car title loaners are loan sharks who know legalese.
Shut them down.
The proliferation of payday lenders reveals just how desperate people have become due to the George WMD Bush economy.
Ironic story there Kansas, since the religious fanatics have been dominating, the payday lenders have been popping up all over the place.Could the coincidence be tied together?
Sounds to me Like Econ is bitching because people have freedom. That he doesn’t like, sounds a lot like fascism, for a guy that says he’s for the free market(unless its trading with Cuba) he sure does want the government involved in peoples lives especially if its sex, unless its Priest on boy action then your a evil Catholic bigot for saying that its bad.
Melody McCray Miller had an opportunity during the 2007 legislative session to limit activities of payday lenders. The amendment was put onto a bill and the minority leader Dennis McKinney reversed it. Melody may have even voted for the reverse.
The one credit union that was giving such loans was shut down. Banks and credit unions are not allowed to knowingly provide potentially bad loans without collataral. So the will not be able to provide for the people what the payday loan companies are doing.
I don’t like Pay-day loaners. Don’t really have anything against them other than they prey on the most vulnerable. Even being as poor as I am I’d never use one. I just do what the rich people do–ignore the bills until litigation is threatened and haggle for a cheaper out. I rank them with credit cards and lottery–an idiot tax.
I have never been to keen on businesses that prey on people when they are in dire straits. Though some that get these loans may do it simply to rearrange their money till payday to buy something they just do not want to wait for. Most I imagine are trying to make the ends meet till payday and it maybe a matter of food and fuel to get them to payday. Either way it is not a good situation and only leads to extending the hardship farther.
See http://www.wen2k.com/tell.php?Id=952 . I can probably show an article or post to any and all discussions your can start up. I have posted 126 articles as a Publisher at http://www.wen2k.com . I have Published Casino ideas, investment, recipes, Law, corruption, inventions, dirty check cashing place rules and Extortion by the State, etc:.. Herbert West III, Publisher/Journalist west.herb@yahoo.com http://www.wen2k.com
Oh yes, another so called Kansas legislator from Wichita doing their Nanny Town stuff on all of Kansas. Keep your stuff in Wichita!
“I don’t like these places.
But, we will stop them from getting a “pay day advance” to pay the mortgage, or to pay for the abortion, because:
We are smarter than they are, and they need our help!
Rather twisted logic, really.”Posted by econ.
First, he says he doesn’t like the places, then starts on an abortion rant, then says us libs are stopping people from using the loansharks.
The “twisted logic” is evident to anyone who wastes their time reading econ.
The states that have got rid of these predators, or never allowed them in the first place, seem to be getting along fine. It is true that in abolishing them, there need to be valid alternatives. One thing that is lacking is financial education in the school. It used to be that non-college-bound students learned about practical everyday finance in classes like consumer math or business math. Now those classes are gone, and everybody has to take algebra, whether or not they have any interest or any use for it.
I agree, these predatory lenders take advantage of people’s ignorance about money management, schools need to focus more on common sense finanacal management along with algebra and geometry. Too many consumers don’t pay attention to things like interest rates when it comes to borrowing money or using credit cards, all they see is the immediate gratification of having money in their pocket or buying something they don’t have to pay for until later. A person has to feel the pain of buying in order to get their spending under contol, when you take away the pain, it’s way too easy to get head over heels in debt and to a point where all you can afford is the interest payments…Payday lenders are just a new version of the company store…the idea is to hook you and not ever let you get away.
“prey on consumers”??? Excuse me? Who forces the consumers to walk into these places in the first place? Are they being kidnapped off the street and forced to take out these loans?
Oh dear..the ‘there ought to be a law” crowd sees something they don’t like, invent a ‘harm’ and scream for legislation.
If you don’t like these places..DON”T GO THERE!
taz…in the real world people are desperate and/or ignorant. Just because they happen to be that way is no excuse for corporations to screw them because they can.How about the elderly that fall prey to various scams? Do you think they deserve what they get, too?
Ironic story there Kansas, since the religious fanatics have been dominating, the payday lenders have been popping up all over the place.Could the coincidence be tied together?
Posted by: Wiseman | December 23, 2007 at 03:43 AM
Happy to oblige for an easy scapegoat for you.
It’s much easier than thinking about the problem don’t you think?
If these loan operations were run by somebody with the name “Sammy the Hatchet,” they’d have been shut down in a matter of weeks. Unfortunately they’re run bypeople pretending to be upstanding members of our business community.We used to have laws against usury, the charging of excessive interest rates, but credit card companies lobbied the legislature to have them repealed. Now loan-sharking has become a legitimate business. And if you’re one of their victims who can’t pay the vig, they no longer break your legs, they break your life!Used to be, there was a division between honest businessmen and gangsters, but no more. The gangsters have won.
Where money is concerned, the bad guys usually win. Too many of them running the country.
Mary,
There is always a “don’t go there, if you don’t like ‘em” bot in the crowd.
Payday loans emerged as a consequence of welfare reform. People living on the margin, one car repair away from bankruptcy and homelessness, need to have some way to access extra cash. Payday loans fulfill that need and in fact shadow economy lenders have been around for a long time and will never really go away.
An encouraging sign I have seen is that credit unions are offering short term higher rate loans for people for whom they don’t ask as rigid application standards. Who will put Payday loans out of business will be more mainstream lenders. While the credit union loans are fairly high rate, they are much better deals that the 400+% APRthat make up the usual payday loan (the 400+ would require turning the loan over several times for a years length of time – which may in practice be impossible to do).
The payday loan problem is being addressed. The progress is not as quick as some of us would like to see.
I wonder how people can graduate from our public schools without the tools that allow them to understand that a payday loan, especially rolling it over week after week, is not wise.
And Steven, I would suggest to you that a rate expressed with “year” in the denominator doesn’t require the activity to last over a time period as long as that unit to be valid.
It’s like the guy who was stopped by the police for speeding. The officer said “didn’t you know the speed limit here is 50 miles per hour.” The guy said “yes, but I wasn’t going to be on this road that long.”
Security is always an illusion. There are a lot of you people who work hard and don’t think you’re poor who are only one small disaster away from poverty. One serious illness and you’re out of a job, out of credit and maybe out of a mortgage. The insurance plan you paid for and counted on may or may not cover that specific illness or treatment, or that flood as opposed to another, or have some other niggly reason for not covering you. One major illness or lawsuit and your savings will be gone and you could find yourself and your family homeless on welfare. You think that can’t happen to you? I’ve known dozens families it did happen to!Then, what are your options? You can’t go to your friendly banker, he’ll laugh in your face! You end up going to the only people who will lend you money, and sell your soul so your kids can eat. It’s not one of those problems you “just say no” to.
I agree, “it doesn’t matter”. APR is a convenient metric, even though I doubt many payder lenders would let their clients roll over a loan 26 times a year.
I have never received a satisfactoy answer from my representative as to why state legislation allowing the high interest rates on payday loans was a “good idea”.
The payday loan problem is on a smaller scale and an issue amongst poor people, but reminds me of the sub-prime mortgage problem. Predatory lending does not add to an economy. But given the deregulatory mindset now prevelent, the only real way to cut into this problem is through competition. The Boeing credit union and a Catholic credit union in the Delano district are offering loan products that can compete with payday lenders in terms of ease of obtaining them with less APR.
Yep, got to protect the people from themselves.
Isn’t that violating my rights? According to the Dems, its not. It really is amazing how the Dems like to pick and choose the rights that we should have? They will go on and on about how the guvment is violating our rights by wiretapping our enemies but should someone want to own a gun…AARRGGGHHHH
That someone might want to use their first amendment rights and talk about how our immigration laws are being violated… GASP, they are racists or xenophobes, they shouldn’t have that right.
That someone needs to get 125.00 real quick to get their car out of the shop so they can get to work tomorrow, and are willing to pay for the convenience, they don’t deserve that right.
I think all Dems who are running for President need to post on their website, which rights they are going to table during their time as president.
I ask an honest question, my liberal friends:
On what issues does the “Nanny State” have an obligation to intrude, and on what issues does the “Nanny State” let individuals contract with other individuals, without interference?
You want to gamble? “Well, the state wants your money, so we don’t care if you are smart or stupid”.
You want an abortion? “Well, it would be “sexist” to think you don’t know what you are doing. Do what you want, its your body, after all”
You want to go to a “pay day loan company” to PAY for the abortion, or to PAY for the mortgage, after you lost your money at the Casino?
“You are far too stupid to figure this out for yourself, let the State of Kansas “help you” with this decision, after all, it might be your body, and it might be your paycheck you lost, but it is the liberal nature to tell other people what to do, as long as being a “nanny” hurts businesses we don’t like!”—–Having said that, I do have one suggestion:
Eliminate the criminal penalty for overdraft checks, “hot checks” written to “advance” companies.
That would give them only civil court status, on collections.
By the way, when I worked in the grocery business, while in school, we had a number of customers that always wrote hot checks at the end of the month. They were more than willing to pay the $10.00 or $20.00 hot check charge, at the store, plus what ever the bank charged. This went on for years, with some of the customers. We still took their checks. They had kids with them. They would not eat without the hot checks. They always covered their checks, so — What, exactly, were we supposed to do?
$50.00 “hot” grocery check.
$10.00 bad check charge (at the time) — that is 20% if they take a full year to pick up the check. They would usually pick up the check in 2 weeks. That is 520%. This does not count the bank charges.
I tried talking to a few of them. They became friends. As a college kid, and Marine Reservist, I even floated one of them $20 bucks one time. I got in trouble for it. The store told me not to do it again. (And I was not charging interest, at all).
By the way, when I worked at Safeway, Jimmy Carter was the President. Must we blame Presidents for EVERYTHING? Try not to be so partisan. These issues can be looked at with some common sense, can’t they?
I had buddy who was a cop and I’d listen to some of his war stories and one of his favorite lines to say whenever he saw me shaking my head sadly was “It’s not illegal to be stupid”.
Well according to the Dems, it is illegal unless of course the smart ones foot the bill.
I feel the same way. How many tyranical righteous snobs (right wing, left wing, and religous) does this state need to tell the rest of us how to live. I don’t necessarily agree with the concept, but they are filling a need created by the market. Of course, what are the underlying building blocks of the need. How about mediocre education, arcaic laws and concepts, and scams by the rest of society that create the desperation that all of these people who turn to this need. But, I don’t expect too many of you to understand this deep analysis of the situation. Between a watered down education and your high and mighty righteousness yall fly off the handle and blame it on the provider. It’s kind of like blaming the drug dealer when the biggest problem are those creating the demand. In reality it’s both sides’ fault for not avoiding the temptation. But we are only human, and some are just more righteous than others. It all boils down to how much of the truth can you handle. Merry Christmas.
Eww.
Whenever a really slimy institution needs defending you can count on pauliecon and Gene to show up.
Yeah there is fun and profit in exploiting your fellow man in hard times. I’d like to think most of us are better than that.
I agree Billy Bob about the water downed education. Why are the elementary and jr. highs not pushing and concentrating on the three R’s. Save the liberal leaning crap for High School and College. Let’s make sure they can read and write first before we start the whole global warming, homosexual agenda, Islam is a religion of peace, America is bad crap.
In the state where I live there is only half day kindergarten. Some school district charge 179.00 a month to provide for full day kindergarten. Now this is a hell of a deal for all day daycare but it was found that it was unconstituional for them to charge for the extra half day. So either it will go back to just half or the school district will have to eat the cost for the rest of the day. Of course the libs are demanding that the the state provide for a full day kindergarten. But for what reason, get this. One of the school districts said the 2nd half of the day was used for “special projects” and “guest speakers”.
First off, what guest speakers do the kindergartener’s need to listen to and what are the guest speakers brainwashing the kids on.
Ahhh..the knives are out..:
“There is always a “don’t go there, if you don’t like ‘em” bot in the crowd.”
So, Freedom of Choice is no longer relevant? If I don’t like to go to bars, I have the right to demand them all be closed? If there is a particular religious following I disagree with, it should be closed? If I don’t like casinos, they should all be closed?
No. A thousand times no. People have a CHOICE to go to places. We do NOT NEED a nanny government looking out for every possible harm that could befall someone.
Yes…some people do abuse the payday loans. Some people also abuse alcohol–shall we ban that as well? Ooops. Already tried that one–didn’t work, did it?
Banning something because it ‘might’ hurt someone is not a rational argument. Show us the harm. Show us the tens of thousands of people who are forced into the street and a life of crime by these ‘predatory lenders’. Show us cause for this, other than your self righteous outrage.
We do not need more laws “protecting us”. We have far too many now.
I reread my post JR and darned if I can find where I defended payday loans. But don’t worry I don’t have a shocked look on my face.
Any other businesses that should be abolished JR according to you? According to the Dems?
Payday loans businesses are legal, but they are bad.
Abortion clinics are legal, but they are good.
Gun stores are legal, but they are bad.
Gay bath houses are legal, but they are good.
Please post your list very soon JR of the “proper” businesses according to the Dems.
Oh and by the way JR, I just bought a 1978 pinto with 300,000 miles on it. It cost me 3600.00 dollars, I really don’t think it was a good deal, but the car salesman was REALLY pushy and REALLY was wanting me to sign the loan papers at 21% interest. I think I was taken advantage of because I’m not so smart, could you please re-imburse me for the down payment and tell them I don’t have to pay. Of course I want to keep the car, I just don’t think I should have to pay for it since the salesman was so pushy. OH and no, there was not a gun to my head, I guess it was just one of my silly, blonde days. TEE HEE.
DEAD ON TAZ.
Oh and by the way Dems, just because YOU label something as “predatory” does not really make it true.
If that was the case I’d have labeled John Edwards as a “predatory” lawyer a LONG time ago.
What of the poor, helpless, abused and down trodden who utilize these services?Will they not be forced to head to the back alley loan sharks for these services?Keep your hands off my wallet!
I THINK I know a good way to scatter these roaches in favor of exploiting people’s pain and misery.
I’ll turn on my hypocrite flashlight!
How many of you “free market” keep your gubmint off us folks are in favor of legalized prostitution?
There is a type of sports car that if driven irresponsibly, can flip over. If this happens, someone MIGHT get hurt. Oh my. Let us BAN those cars. Ignore the people who can operate them responsibly, let’s BAN them all. Because someone MIGHT get hurt. We don’t know how many people MIGHT get hurt. We don’t know how severely they MIGHT be hurt. But, let’s BAN them anyway.
Anyone who disagrees is an obvious “bot”who doesn’t care about the families who MIGHT be impacted by such reckless behavior.
After all..if someone MIGHT get hurt, we MUST ban it for all.
Stupid argument…yet it is exactly what we are seeing above.
I have been to Nevada many times, and the legalized prostitution there doesn’t bother me in the slightest. No interest in participating, but I am not going to scream from the rafters for its abolition. There are adults who do patronize such places–LEGALLY.
Used to be no one could get credit unless they qualified, now anyone can get a credit card for their dog if they want. I think it’s great that cedit companies are getting hit in the face with the consequences of their easy and even aggressive lending practices.
I plan to go bargain shopping for some real estate after Xmas…my nephew just picked up a repocessed house for $11,000 under the bank’s asking price just because they were so eager to unload it. That’s what happens when you make subprime loans to people who can’t afford it.
If the majority people of this country vote for it, then I got no say in it.
Try and keep up JR, forget the hypocrit flashlight, just turn on a flashlight and look at what you are saying.
What I and Taz and others are saying has not a thing to do with payday loans. It has to do with free will and the freedoms we have. I have the right to be stupid and I may make use of any LEGAL business in this country as long as the people NOT the guvment decide whether or not it is legal.
Don’t come after me and charge me for someone elses stupidity. They had every right to NOT walk into a legal business. I have NEVER been walking down the street and been FORCED into entering any establishment.
If I have the need or the desire to walk into a legal payday loan business and make use of their service, then I have that right.
If I walk into a business that allows smoking, which is legal and I do not desire to stay, then I have the right to walk out and take my business elsewhere.
If the company I wish to go to work for allows smoking, then I have the right to go to work at another company that does not.
Please explain where I or the guvment have the right to force that employer to not do business the way he or she desires?
Playing catch up yet JR?
Gene,I suspect your purchase of a 1978 pinto for 3600 was in jest. I find it hard to believe anyone, let alone a republican, would buy a piece of crap for that much. But then again, republicans voted in bush, so there’s no end to how stupid some people can be:-)
Seriously, though, somne businesses are predatory by their very nature, payday loans being one of them. It has been shown time and time again people using them, some out of necessity, get caught up in the never ending cycle of borrow/pay week after week.
Maybe because Kansas has over 17,000 people making less than the current national wage? Hard to live on less than $6,000 a year. And those people are what the payday lenders are looking for. If that ain’t predatory, I don’t know what is.
I case I wasn’t clear enough JR.
If prostitution is made legal in this country then that is the law. Now does that mean that I should have to pay for all the hookers to pass out guvment mandatory literature describing that by making use of this hooker that you may get an STD?
I take it then that the guvment is going to place an agent next to each hooker so that any John that shows up the agent must look into their eyes and make sure that they understand that having sex with this hooker could cause death. Is that what we need to come to JR?
Thank goodness there is no financial problem in America due to people being unable to pay back loans. If there was all the free market advocates would be demanding the government to bail them out with taxpayer money, then demand a tax break.
Catch up?
Oh I’m caught up believe me.
I am well aware that the sorry state of this country is that any number of people make their living working over their fellow man.
Payday loans are not much more than legalized mugging.
Thing is? It plays to those already having money using it to make more money on those with no money.
Tell me again why I should be proud to be an American.
But you don’t get it stumper, I was STUPID to make that deal. According to the Dems, I should be let off the hook.
I was preyed upon.
I was taken advantage of.
I didn’t know what I was doing when I signed the dotted line of my own free will.
I was drawn into the dealership by all the pretty cars and colors, that wasn’t fair.
The salesman made me think he was looking out for my best interest (see barack obama). I was the victim.
So the guvment should give me my money back and just make those “smart” people pay for it.
One question, JR. Can you QUANTIFY the harm? We have all seen the horror stories of one or two individuals who wound up thousands in debt over a little loan. Do you have any FACTS? How many people are harmed? To what degree? Conversely, how many people pay back the loans as agreed?
Don’t know? Or is this a case of “my mind is made up, don’t confuse me with facts”????
JR,
It is easy.
Go to any other 3rd world country and see what true poverty is and what true hardship is and you will see how great it is to be an American.
Uh uh Geneo
Live and let live? Caveat emptor?
That aint you. If it was you wouldn’t need to be here LOUDLY repeating it.
You speak here so little.
Oh thank you by the way for that.
But when you do, THIS is the topic you run on about?
Are you in payday loans Gene?
Yeah Nathan well when I see some wanting us to live down to the levels you just pointed at I am not reassured.
Stumper,
I seriously doubt people making $6,000 a year would even have a checking account to write a post dated check to get a pay day loan.
Not that it isn’t sad, but it isn’t part of the target audience that Pay Day loans go after.
You’re almost there JR.
THEN MAKE IT ILLEGAL!!!!!
Make anything that MIGHT hurt a moron illegal.
Make it mandatory federal law that anyone who does not make at least 30,000 a year and a credit score of 800 is NOT allowed to have a credit card.
Is NOT allowed to buy a house.
Is NOT allowed to make any loan of any type whatsoever.
That will fix all the problems then won’t it. That way the morons are protected and the guvment won’t force the smart to have to bail out the stupid.
Everybody is happy, right.
No more rights, no more free will, all will be good. YEAH
I doubt there is any evidence that a woman was “forced at gunpoint” to walk into a Planned Parenthood clinic. Or that anyone was “forced at gunpoint” to buy crack or pot or heroin or a prostitute’s services.
But, see? This is the problem with Libertarian philosophy. For what it’s worth to advocate individual liberties, there are real-world consequences that affect society as a whole. Every individual should be responsible enough to stop at intersections without stop signs or traffic lights dictating they stop look and listen to avoid a collision; but it simply makes more sense to make *everyone* obey traffic regulations… for the betterment of society as a whole.
Every law on the books — and I mean *EVERY* law on the books (and, yes, there probably are too many of them) — exists because somebody went too far. You can make a fine living lending money at a reasonable interest rate to people who can reasonably be expected to pay off the loan. But some people know they can loan shark and make more money than is reasonable by following preditory practices.
If you held a gun to the heads of preditory lenders (or waterboarded them, since that’s “not torture”), most of them would admit they got into the sub-prime mortgage business because it was a quick-in, quick-out scheme for making money in a hurry and leaving the consequences to others.
George WMD Bush’s approach to the sub-prime mortgage crisis is to protect the people who, basically unregulated, gave out loans to people who weren’t qualifed by any logical capitalist model to receive them. Just as Daddy Bush advocated the Savings & Loan bailout in the 80s; protect the fat cats and make the taxpayers and investors the victims.
I fully understand (though don’t always agree on the specifics) with people who hate the prospect of Welfare Cadillac-owners sitting on the sofa and eating bon-bons on the taxpayers’ tab. But I cannot for the life of me understand how the Republic Party justifies corporate welfare that subsidizes Big Macs in Bombay or no-bid contracts to Halliburton.
About the only “welfare” that still exists in America (thanks to President Clinton’s reform in the 90s) helps children (ADC) who happened to pick the wrong parents.
If so-called “Christians” paid a little more attention to the Beatitudes than the Old Testament’s 10 Commandments, all of them would vote for Democrats.
And the money-changers would be dealth with in true Christ-like fashion.
Hey Pall,I’m not against the concept of extending loans to people who need them, I’m against the practice of ripping off poor people with interest rates that would make the Mafia blush. Sorry, I know that must hurt!One of the more successful ideas I’ve been watching has been the advent of personal internet microloans (under $500) at quite reasonable rates to poor people. The default rate is almost nil, and they do a lot of good in the process. Unfortunately, this has cut into the profits of major campaign contributors who want the practice stopped. The nature of the internet makes that difficult, but where there’s a buck to be stolen, somebody will find a way. I’d say contact your congressman, but here in Kansas it would be useless. Ours are already on the Payday payroll.
Thats just sad JR. You just keep insisting that all of this I’m saying has to do with payday loans.
Please start at the top and read and understand what I am saying.
This is NOT about payday loans, it is about free will and the right to do what you want in this country. The right of personal responsibility. The right of making your own decisions, good or bad, it is YOUR decision.
If you make a bad decision, that is on YOU.
If you make a bad decision why should your first thought be “why doesn’t the guvment do something to protect me from me”?
I really don’t think that is what the founding fathers wanted was it?
Theres a big difference between, “hey a big snow storm might collapse my roof, I should get homeowners insurance”
and
“I don’t want to pay for insurance, the guvnment should just give me a new house”
Where does it stop JR? Have you made your list yet of what is an okay business and what isn’t?
Now, Gene, many are called, but few chose to be taken by that kind of deal. That sale was your problem, and yours alone. While some may think you should be reimbersed for your own stupidity, I don’t.
I do, however, regardless of what kansas thinks, think payday loan companies are not much different from borrowing money from the mob, with gigantic vig repayments. If you’re stupid enough to borrow, you should repay. BUT, the interest rates are set up at such a high rate, paying them back, for many, is damn near impossible. Free market hardly includes ripping off your customers, which is what I think payday loan companies do.
If interest rates were knocked down to, say, 30% per anum, I wouldn’t have a problem with them. But rates set at 200% to 400% per anum is highway robbery. Making a profit is one thing, making a killing off the backs of the poor is another. Interest rates for those companies should be set by government, as the companies policing themselves ain’t working. Just ask the people ripped off by Enron.
But why this topic Gene?
The gist of what you seem to be getting at is interference in free will. There are any number of threads you could get verbose on that. Why this one?
My take is you are defending the right of the clever to take advantage of the not so clever disadvantaged. Well where does THAT stop?
Gene,What about all those people in New Orleans who paid for insurance only to have the companies delay payment or weasel out entirely?
JR,
Not all Pay Day lenders are taking advantage of people.
They are providing a service of great risk to people who are a great risk.
The people who go to those places are a credit risk, they have nothing to offer as collateral.
The reason the lenders charge so much is because of the risk they take in lending money to the type of people who go there to barrow it.
Where else are the people who use these places going to get money lent to them or advanced to them?
Well Jed, looks like you need to get busy and get folks elected then that aren’t in the back pocket of the payday loan industry and get payday loan establishments shut down.
Do you really think that these people got into the business to give money away? Come on get with the program.
Do you not have the right to start your own payday lending company and charge LESS interest then your competition and maybe that will bring customers to you? Then maybe your competition will undercut you to get those customers back. It is call the free market and the customer has the RIGHT to make use of your business if they desire.
How long does it take to get one of your micro loans?
Mother of three, wakes up on the 25th of the month, car won’t start. Luckily she lives next door to a reputible mechanic. Mechanic gives her and the kids a ride to school and work.
10am mechanic calls mom says she needs a new timing belt cost of 175.00. Mom has 100 she can spare in her account, no more. Now she can either have the car fixed and take a taxi to work and kids to school until the first when she gets paid, but this will cost her about 30 bucks a day until the first. Or maybe she is lucky and has family or friends who will drive her everywhere until the first. ORShe goes down to the payday loan, gets 75.00 on her lunch break and picks up her car that night. On the first she goes down and pays what 100.00 to borrow that 75 for the 6 days.
How long would it have taken her to get the 75 through a micro loan?
Again, I’m not advocating for payday loans but mom has the right to make the decision SHE feels works out best for her situation, NOT the guvment deciding that payday loans are bad for her and deciding that for her.
Let’s mine Gene’s last as my last for a bit.
Hypothetical mom could make more than any 75 bucks in a transaction between consenting adults on her lunch hour.No?
Nathan here too? Hey Nathan? I could argue that legalized prostitution provides a needed service and speculate that if it were allowed rape and child molestation might go down. I’d feel kinda dirty doing it though. Arguing it that is.
So what you are saying JR is that legalized prostitution would fix the payday loan problem?
I don’t know, I don’t think I could make that much at my age.
Enron was a LIBERAL company, and at least one Enron exec was very involved in starting the idea of “carbon credits”.
I said what I needed to say a couple of posts ago.
You ask, where is the limit to defending people from their own disadvantage/stupidity?
I rebut Where is the limit in allowing some to exploit other people?
It’s a fuzzy line I grant you. I’ll err on my side of it.
Hey JR…still waiting on those numbers. How big of a ‘problem’ are we talking here? Do you have ANY facts at all?
How is chargeing $15.00 to borrow $100 a crime. If you neee the money you need the money. It is cheaper than writing a bad check.
Melody McCray Miller did not think payday loans were a bad idea by casinos. She did not see casinos as a bad business for the very people she says she advocates for. Sure there will people with plenty of money in the casinos but there will also be those who can least afford it.
Banks should have to cap the amount they charge for overdrafts. Banks should not be allowed to charge for every single check that bounces. You could have 3 checks over draw you account. The shortage may only be $15.00 but you will pay $25 – $45 for each on of those checks. Why doesn’t she stop that practice?
Many of the people using payday loans had to pay those overdraft fees. Now they don’t have to.
The credit union that loaned theese people money was shut down by the feds for violating lending practices. There is no bank or credit union that will give most of these people a loan.
Get to know the business before you shoot from the hip.
“Enron was a LIBERAL company, and at least one Enron exec was very involved in starting the idea of “carbon credits”.”
Posted by econ.
Where the hell did that come from. So it’s the LIBERALS fault Enron ripped off so many people?Econ, you’re losing it. Take two qualludes and never call me. God, what a moron.
Legalize prostitution and we will have liberals wanting the government to regulate the price, and relative beauty, of the prostitutes.I can’t believe this, we actually have someone, on this thread, who thinks it would be better to force a woman into prostitution than it would be for her to go to a pay day loan company?—-Everyone here, who hates payday loan companies, I dare you:
Go stand in front of one, with a sign that says, “I will loan you the money at better rates. I will cash your personal check for you.”
What rate would you charge?
Would you be willing to give someone $90.00 on a $100.00 personal check?
If the rates these companies are charging, could be cut by the competition, they WOULD be cut, by the competition.
I pray that I never “need” a pay day loan company. I pray that those I love would come to me, first, before going to a payday loan company.
However, loaning money to people you don’t know, with bad credit, in small amounts, is NOT profitable without huge service charges or interest rates.
If you think it is easy to make money at payday loans, and you have no trouble with gambling, prostitution, abortion or any number of other “businesses” as posted here, why don’t you start your own company, and COMPETE with these “predatory lenders”????
I promise not to laugh when you go broke.
Again, I don’t think there should be any CRIMINAL charges, for writing a “hot check” to a payday loan company.
Other than that, I think we let the market dictate rates.
If you make these places illegal, or if you lower rates, by legislation and not the market, these loans will vanish.
And maybe purse snatching and hot check crimes increase, in the process?
Try to be consistent. By what standard do you decide what services should be legal and what services can not be provided?
Why is the public smart enough to decide for themselves, on alcohol, gambling and abortion, but not smart enough, on lending issues?—–Eleanor Roosevelt: “Great minds talk about ideas, average minds talk about events, small minds talk about people.”
I don’t agree with Eleanor very often. However, looking at this Blog, there is at least ONE person who is not capable of discussing ideas.
It gets really personal, fast, all the time, as if the idea, or true intellectual heavy-lifting, is terrifying, so he must start calling names and talking about people.
It is entirely possible to look down on pay-day loans, to try to keep family and friends away from pay-day loans, and to still not think the government should outlaw pay-day loans.
This is known as an “idea” and “great minds” might want to talk about such ideas.
To claim that someone who supports freedom, on this issue, must “own” a pay-day loan company, is a quick, cheap, lazy resort to “personalities” or “motives” as they say in Congress.
To immediately get personal is the sign of a very small mind.
It is a sign that ideas are over your head.
stumper, I did NOT bring up Enron first, on this thread, someone else did. And, what I said was true: Enron was a natural gas company that lobbied hard for controls on other energy industries, which made Enron, often, side with anti-coal groups and other “green” causes. Also, an exec at Enron DID help start the whole idea of “carbon credits”.
“How is chargeing $15.00 to borrow $100 a crime.”
Posted by tfc.
That’s $15 per week. Figure out the annual interest and then tell me I’m still shooting from the hip.
And Nathan, many of those using the payday loans have no credit history built up. It can be very difficult building credit under those circumstances (low pay; new on job; recently married; new baby.). So some have little choice, but I guess it’s okay to rip them off, hell, they’re the little peole, ain’t they.
econ,I really don’t care who brought up enron. You brought up the liberal part, which I think is facetious at best. But tell me: regardless of how enrons politically leanings were, justify their ripping off millions, with no government oversight. Justify payday loans doing the same thing. Or are payday loan companies also under the liberal umbrella?
You want to get into it about which party controlled company uses government the most to rip off people? I can do that till the cows come home. Your argument is weak at best, and without foundation, other than your hatred of anything liberal. Get a real issue, if you have any.
It’s astounding to see how convoluted so-called “conservative” rhetoric can get, especially in light of “econ 101’s” assertion that Enron’s marketing of Carbon Credits somehow made it a “liberal” company.
“Carbon Credits” came about as a compromise between “conservatives” who want no environmental controls whatsoever and liberals who realize we need to find an alternative to carbon-based fuels. Okay, said we liberals, let’s give the marketplace a chance to self-regulate, and Enron exploited pollution-generating industries and screwed around all traditional accounting principles to exploit consumers and investors and employees and customers. The Gilded Age II.
So-called “conservatives” such as “econ 101″ cannot hide their contempt for the people whose labor actually creates wealth. They worship those capitalists who have wealth leverage it into more wealth on the backs of those who actually produce.
People such as “econ 101″ rail against “socialism” because it’s a buzz word that seems to win them arguments. But, in fact, the unfettered capitalism advocated by so-called “conservatives” results only in exploitation of the people who actually create capitalist wealth: the workers.
Screw the workers long enough and they will rise up to create an entirely different system of economics, one that most certainly is inferior to well-regulated capitalism.
Yes, you have a right to make a profit on your investments. But it’s only right that people who produce the wealth get their fair share of the benefits. And if someone is willing and able to give you 40 hours a week of labor to produce the wealth born of your capital investment, that person has a reasonable expectation to be able to sustain themselves and a family with a home, utilities, food, and health care… even if it might take you a couple more months of investing to afford your Learjet.
Screw the people in the fields and on the assembly lines long enough and they will eventually rise up and and develop another system for survival. History is proof of this, from China to Russia to France… to every economic revolution in the history of civilization.
Modern American “conservatism” is based on an “I got mine, you can go to Hell” attitude. It is and always has been the ruin of governments and economies that embrace it.
So spew your “socialism!” buzzwords as some sort of bogeyman that’s gonna ruin your life or threaten your perceived fat-cat status. The only-est economic system that has any hope of surviving is one that gives a reasonable opportunity for most people to benefit from their contribution to the general welfare.
You remember “the general welfare,” don’t you? It’s in the first paragraph of the Constitution of the United States of America. Look it up.
Looky looky who is taking campaign money from payday loan companies, Big Democrats!:
http://www.paydayloansabc.com/news/May_07/johnson.htm
List of payday loan contributions:
CANDIDATE PARTY AMOUNT
Thompson, Tommy G R $5,000
Plache D $4,050
Erpenbach D $3,500
Huelsman R $2,500
Hoven R $2,350
Jensen R $2,226
Foti R $1,600
Clausing D $1,500
Meyer D $1,500
Chvala D $1,500
Ward R $1,000
Kreuser D $800
Jauch D $800
Jeskewitz R $600
Lazich R $500
Manthey D $500
Plale D $500
Klusman R $500
Lasee, F R $300
Huebsch R $300
Gard R $300
Turner D $300
Rhoades R $200
TOTAL $32,326
Get real econ. Your moralistic schtick is getting old.
Clinton financial scandals:
http://www.spectator.org/dsp_article.asp?art_id=11208
And, folks, mortgage lenders always give heavily to Democrats.
So do pay day loan companies.
Got to run, but you might want to search the campaign contributions to your favorite Dems, before you go calling us Republicans any more names.
stumper, thanks for proving MY point!
If these places are so bad, why do your Democrat heroes take ANY of their money??
econ,
As usual, because of your blind following of anything remotely republican, you fail to see the forest for the trees: both parties take contributions. Money owns the beltway, fostered by your republican friends. But, in your tiny mind, the republicans can do no wrong.
And that’s where we part company. This republican administration has seen to it that partisanship takes precedence over doing what’s right. Just look at gas prices under big-oil bush.
Man..the silence is deafening. How many people are ‘harmed’ by these payday lenders? Where is the significance? Or, doesn’t that matter?
If, for example, if 300,000 people use these loans responsibly and 5 people abuse them..is that grounds for banning them?
Much worse than payday lenders are the charlatins who sold all those sub-prime mortgages. Far too many borrowers were duped by their fast talk.
I would add to the issue is that the level of finacial illiteracy is very troubling. I recall a discussion I had with a judge some years ago about the need to teach people the fundamentals of contract law, lending law etc. Then we would not have had to deal wiht many of the cases that had ended up in his Court room.
Pall,”Legalize prostitution and we will have liberals wanting the government to regulate the price, and relative beauty, of the prostitutes.”
Not a bad idea! Back when I lived in a poor neighborhood, there were business girls across the street from me who on warm evenings danced topless on their porch. If they’d been better looking it wouldn’t have been too bad, but this was definitely a case of indecent exposure! We should not allow prostitutes of less than 75 Millihelens to ply their trade in public.
The wife of David Patraeus was instrumental in getting Federal law passed that stipulated men and women in uniform (a cash strapped group) could not be charged more than 36% APR. If this is good enough for our troops, why not our regular citizens?
You scientists out there clamoring for data, I, too, would like to see data on the harms, or not, done by these businesses. The payday loan people say they have high degrees of customer satisfaction. Could be true, could be B.S. I’d like to see real data on the extent of this issue, as well.
One of the Business Depts at WSU was trying to do survey data that would help make traditional lenders more responsive to payday lender customers. I have lost track on the progress of that project.
On the politicalization of this problem. One of the big shots in the Clinton administration (I am forgetting his name) started Advace American: Cash Advance. There is no pure party with respect to this problem.
Last I knew there were between 70 and 80 payday loan shops in Wichita. That has always seemed like a high number to me. The sunflower coalition has been fighting them – because of their concerns that disproportionally these businesses seem to find their way into minority neighborhoods.
There is a lot more to know about these businesses. Frankly, they don’t tend to be real transparent in their practices. Routinely before they hire an employee, these businesses ask said employee to sign a secrecy oath. You’d almost suspect they believed they are doing something wrong. Imagine that…
Nathan,”The reason the lenders charge so much is because of the risk they take in lending money to the type of people who go there to barrow it.”
And if Payday lending wasn’t so obscenely profitable they wouldn’t be springing up on every streetcorner in low-income neighborhoods.
And maybe if they weren’t ripping off people it might not be as high-risk as you think.
A useful resource on the payday loan industry:
http://www.alibris.com/booksearch?qwork=8955915&matches=21&author=Karger%2C+Howard&browse=1&cm_re=works*listing*title
A useful resource on the payday loan industry:
http://www.alibris.com/booksearch?qwork=8955915&matches=21&author=Karger%2C+Howard&browse=1&cm_re=works*listing*title
sorry for the double post. This typepad has really slowed down. Can’t wait for the new system.
Just like blood banks and liquor stores set up more next to the poor neighborhoods, you’ll see payday loans doing the same.It’s sad that taking advantage of people who already are down and out is more and more the American way of doing business.I think if we want to have freedom to do what we want in this country, then neighborhoods should have the say whether or not they want these types of businesses close by..kinda the way they fought porn shops, casinos, and Walmart. Let the people decide, that’s the REAL American way.
Isn’t this just another name for “LOAN SHARK”?
Doesn’t the patronage have a lot to say about the kind of businesses anyone wants in their respective neighborhoods?
Pay day lenders, used to be called loan sharks in my day.
Should have read RJ up above before posting. They are the same thing, just been given some modern day legitimacy. But after the likes of Rent-A-Center, this should have been expected.
Credit card companies are just as bad, well, most credit card companies anyway. The poor and uneducated will always be preyed upon by the rich and greedy, which is why we as a society need to speak out against these abuses.
Stumper,
I just realized that YOU were the person who first brought up Enron, on this thread, then you got mad at me for telling everyone that Enron was a liberal company, which supported liberal causes.Now you bitch about oil prices being high:—–”And that’s where we part company. This republican administration has seen to it that partisanship takes precedence over doing what’s right. Just look at gas prices under big-oil bush.
Posted by: stumper | December 23, 2007 at 02:23 PM
—–What gives?
Dont you realize that liberals and greens WANT the price of gasoline to be high, so that people don’t drive as much?You are mad at events that liberals want, yet you get mad at Republicans for the results that liberals want?Republicans want to drill for more domestic oil, and Republicans would like to see more domestic refinaries built.
Liberals block these things, which would help keep prices down.
And you get mad at the wrong Political Party?
Supply and demand.
Increase supply and the price will go down.
But, liberals will not let us.
Also, by the way, liberals want an even higher TAX on gasoline.
Keep up, stumper.
You seem to be clueless about your own party.
Monkeyhawk has many fine posts.
The one at 1:49? Stellar!
Me I’m more a brawler.
I think monkeyhawk though is likely the best written poster on this forum.
How many ways would you like me to destroy you with your last post pauliecon?
I don’t know where to start!
It’s like Santa came a night early.
“Republicans want to drill for more domestic oil,”
Uh huh, and I can find a post where you want to SELL that oil to Japan.
“Republicans would like to see more domestic refinaries built.”
Maybe “Republicans” would like to see more refineries built. That’s a line they talk on a lot.
The oil companies do NOT want more refineries built.
Now we all have seen the price of gasoline and how it jumps about.
Um….
When was the last time there was a gasoline shortage or lines?
SO we can conclude that no new refinEries are needed.
I earlier nominated “Monkeyhawk” to honors. I hereby nominate pauliecon as blog joke.
The poster, above, is offered a job draining swimming pools.
However, he has to answer this test, first:
How many pumps does it take to empty a swimming pool?
If the drain is only on one side of the pool, the deep end, how can we be sure that the water on the shallow end will drain?—-Supply and demand determine price.
Japan has a HIGH demand for oil and gasoline.
If Alaskan Oil and Gasoline meet part of the Japan demand, THAT alone, will reduce world prices, including the prices in Kansas!
Also, producing Alaskan oil and gasoline keeps Americans employed, and it raises more tax dollars for the USA.
I know these concepts are far to complicated for some people, but I am sure most of our readers understand.
Let’s name names shall we Paul?
I address you directly. Either respond in kind or keep quiet.
You are demeaned enough. I don’t need your “he said”.
You are getting out the punctuation. I’ll wait til you get out the all caps ranting before I embarrass you further.
‘Cause deal is, forum says, and reality is?
You just aint credible in comparison to me or any poster here.
You just can’t handle the truth.Or math.
Sounds like the problem is fixing itself. If banks and credit unions are going to offer an alternative then people can go there. A market fix is always better than a government intrusion. By allowing the market to work real solutions are created and found. If government simply steps in a says “no more” then people are going to find the same thing except with no government protection at all. Anyone ever heard of loan sharking?
Pall,”If the drain is only on one side of the pool, the deep end, how can we be sure that the water on the shallow end will drain?”
Actually this isn’t a particularly good day to get the answer to that question. You might have to wait until it thaws a bit.
Miles – I agree. If the banks and credit unions can offer these loans then so be it.
I do believe the feds will tell them they cannot do this.
It will be interesting to watch.
We got rid of alot of those places in Georgia when they set a cap on what they could charge. It was not because they wanted to get rid of them but the military was pressuring for regulation because so many soldiers were going into so much hock that they could not be deployed! And Georgia is a big military state.
“”"Ironic story there Kansas, since the religious fanatics have been dominating, the payday lenders have been popping up all over the place.Could the coincidence be tied together?”"”
ACTUALLY since you ask there IS a tie in between Christianity and Pay Day Loans! I noticed this when lots of them down here had names like “Seventh Day Loans”, “Agape” and “Christian”
A pleasure to look at, go on with this! Thanks!
Good-looking site. Congratulations.