Surge skeptics are going to have trouble dismissing this endorsement:
“I think the surge is working,†said Rep. John Murtha, D-Pa., one of the Iraq war’s loudest critics. Murtha, just back from a Mideast trip, added: “But the thing that has to happen is the Iraqis have to do this themselves. We can’t win it for them.â€
Posted by Rhonda Holman
Registered?
Commenting on WE Blog now requires you to be a Kansas.com member. Use the links above to register, if you haven't already, or to log in.Contact us
Follow us
Daily Archives
-
Recent Comments
- Phantom on Open thread 11/23
- Raptor on Too many exemptions
- Monkeyhawk on Open thread 11/23
- ANTI on Open thread 11/23
- JimJohnson on Open thread 11/23
- JimJohnson on Open thread 11/23
- ANTI on Open thread 11/23
- JimJohnson on Open thread 11/23
- JimJohnson on Open thread 11/23
- Phantom on Open thread 11/23
194 Comments
Nancy Pelosi must be really upset with Murtha.I am sure she will get him back in line, the PARTY line!
Murtha is just a little cautious on making comments about Iraq, and here is why:
Murtha Fights Marine’s Defamation Lawsuit
By Kathleen Hunter, CQ Staff
Lawyers for Rep. John P. Murtha will appeal a recent ruling advancing a defamation lawsuit brought against the Pennsylvania Democrat by a U.S. Marine under investigation for killing Iraqi civilians.
Justice Department lawyers representing Murtha on Nov. 16 filed notice that they planned to appeal a federal district court judge’s Sept. 28 ruling allowing the lawsuit to proceed and ordering Murtha to give sworn testimony in the case.
Marine Staff Sgt. Frank Wuterich sued Murtha in August 2006, accusing the 17-term congressman of defaming him during a news conference last year on the Nov. 19, 2005 killings of Iraqi civilians in Haditha.
Wuterich charges that Murtha “publicly and falsely” accused him and other Marines involved in the Haditha incident of “cold-blooded murder and war crimes” and of attempting a cover-up, according to court documents.
Military prosecutors initially charged four enlisted Marines — including Wuterich — with murder and accused four officers of dereliction of duty for failing to adequately investigate the incident.
Charges against four Marines have been dropped and two others will face court-martial, but not for murder.
http://cqpolitics.com/wmspage.cfm?parm1=5&docID=news-000002631257
Murtha In Hot Water For His Comments Below:
http://www.weeklystandard.com/Content/Public/Articles/000/000/014/384wfxcg.asp
ON MAY 17, 2006, outspoken Bush critic and erstwhile Iraq war opponent John Murtha (D-Pa.) shocked the world with a dramatic revelation.
At a news conference he’d convened to talk about “the situation in Iraq,” the formerly pro-military lawmaker dropped a bomb on the Marine Corps when he revealed in his 24 minute presser that troops with Kilo Company, 3rd Battalion, 1st Marine Regiment had mowed down innocent civilians in a previously unknown town in north western Iraq called Haditha.
In stark language he accused the Corps of a massive cover-up and made the case that the Marines ran amok in a war with no direction. More shockingly, and without any corroborating evidence, he called the Marines involved in the bloody ambush and ensuing firefight cold-blooded killers.
“We had an incident in Haditha where a Marine was killed by an IED. Time magazine reported it and it’s kind of a puzzling report because they’re investigating it right now. But let me tell you what the consequences of this have been. It’s much worse than has been reported in Time magazine,” Murtha said at the press conference. “There was no firefight. There was no IED that killed these innocent people. Our troops overreacted because of the pressure on them, and they killed innocent civilians in cold blood.”
Nice of Rhonda to leave out the rest of Murtha’s comments.
“The military surge has created a window of opportunity for the Iraqi government,” the Pennsylvania Democrat said. “Unfortunately, the sacrifice of our troops has not been met by the Iraqi government and they have failed to capitalize on the political and diplomatic steps that the surge was designed to provide.”
Has anyone denied that the surge helped to stabilize? The real test is, however, if it can be sustained without our presence, and I don’t believe it will.
Max do you realize that charges are still pending in the Haditha case?
“Four enlisted men involved in the killings were subsequently charged with murder. Two had charges dismissed, one has been ordered to trial and the squad leader of the men who carried out the killings, Staff Sgt. Frank Wuterich, is awaiting word on whether he will face trial.”
http://www.nctimes.com/articles/2007/11/18/news/top_stories/17_12_0611_17_07.txt
Note the date
What gets me is it seems everyone is playing politics when they should be thinking about what is good for the country. The only ones not conceding that the invasion of Iraq was the worst mistake this country has ever made. Is Bush and a handful of his ilk, yet all it has become is just another childish game of petty politics. The Democrats have the power and the right to end this mistake. Yet are using it for political gain, wanting to force Bush to blink and take the immediate blame when he will be noted through the rest of time with the other leaders whom have used their countries.
The republicans setting in a boat that is sinking will not end it because that would give the Democrats a win. As if that is somehow more important then the welfare and well-being of the nation. They can not un-ring the bell so they continue ringing it, trumpeting every little success as if V.E. day had just been declared! Just not willing to admit that in reality these small successes have not gotten anything to do with the surge or the actions of the U.S. military. If the small group of Al-Qaeda had been happy to just blow our troops up. The Sunnis would still be handing them the IED as we were the ones who spoiled their beach party. These successes are good news but can not be read as winning the war. Unless winning is defined as having a eternally large military presents in Iraq.Britain held Palestine using military force until the insurgency finally just worn them out.
LOL Ann Coulter, never allowing reality to get in the way of making a point. Announced with great pride last night in a speech. That through great hardship she managed to get the number of “Al-Qaeda” that the U.S. Military has killed in Iraq. 22,000 “Al-Qaeda” that includes all the insurgents both Sunni and Shiites. This of course proves that Iraq is the front lines in the war on terror for Al-Qaeda contrary to what those dummy Liberals are say . BUT just imagine the number if Al-Qaeda was not so busy rebuilding their forces in Afghanistan and Pakistan. A little detail that Coulter had fail to mention in her speech.
W D — As usual, mAnn Coulter manages to leave out a lot of things in her speeches and books… most notably, reality!!
Note the date
Posted by: political_mom | December 02, 2007 at 05:13 AM
===============================Max doesnt like to deal with dates… they interfere with his Hillary Fetish, and his anti-socialist crusade!! LOL
WD, the dems can’t do anything till they have at least 60% of the vote. They already tried to vote on it, and it didn’t go through.
Didn’t the WEblog editors make a post awhile back about how many insurgents were from out of the country?
The question is not whether the surge is working. The question is now when can we leave. This has gone on long enough. In fact too long. It is time for it to end and for those folks to take responsibility for their own country.
How many billions do you suppose has gone to pay off the Sunni shieks? We are arming them, which is as much a part of the surge as our troop increases. When Bush says we must support the troops by passing his funds request, what he is really saying is we must continue to support the bribery that keeps this massive deception afloat.
The “Surge” was supposed to provide an environment where the Iraqi government could get its s#it together and begin governing.
How’s *that* worked out?
‘Murtha The Mouth’? Yea, great endorsement for the Bush/Cheney killing machine, a/k/a, the Iraq war. Did notice that ‘Old Bigmouth’ didn’t have a gun. So, how’s he supposed to help the fight with no gun? Oh, I forgot-typical politician. You go fight and die, I’ll hide here behind my campaign donations.
….as Iraqis and American officials assess the effects of this year’s American troop increase, there is a growing sense that, even as security has improved, Iraq has slipped to new depths of lawlessness.
One recent independent analysis ranked Iraq the third most corrupt country in the world. Of 180 countries surveyed, only Somalia and Myanmar were worse…http://www.nytimes.com/2007/12/02/world/middleeast/02baghdad.html?hp
Iraq has learned the republican way.
Now Democrats can explain why Europe found Iraqi WMDs also.
http://www.nytimes.com/2004/06/10/international/middleeast/10nati.html
http://www.nytimes.com/2004/07/07/politics/07NUKE.html
http://www.opinionjournal.com/editorial/feature.html?id=110005016
http://www.expatica.com/source/site_article.asp?channel_id=2&story_id=4878
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,124576,00.html
http://www.ynetnews.com/Ext/Comp/ArticleLayout/CdaArticlePrintPreview/1,2506,L-3451012,00.html
You cling to beliefs that even the President repudiated, Catherine. Why would that be?
Catherine, I read your links but I am not sure what your intent was? The information that Iraq had some equipment that COULD be used to make either useful or dangerous items in and of its self is meaningless.The report that several items that should have been in a secured place are showing up in junk yards just means that as gate keepers we are doing a lousy job. Are you make accusations against our troops? Syrians and Iranians are killed in a explosion of a rocket while trying to mount a warhead that may or may not be used to carry WMD. Or might not considering that it is reported that possibly there was a storage area for such things close. WE also have Chemical and Biological weapons, does that mean we are fixing to use them. Or just give them to the next dictator who is at war with someone we do not like?
So pleas emake it clear what you were wanting to pass along.
Max do you realize that charges are still pending in the Haditha case?
“Four enlisted men involved in the killings were subsequently charged with murder. Two had charges dismissed, one has been ordered to trial and the squad leader of the men who carried out the killings, Staff Sgt. Frank Wuterich, is awaiting word on whether he will face trial.”
http://www.nctimes.com/articles/2007/11/18/news/top_stories/17_12_0611_17_07.txt
Note the datePosted by: political_mom | December 02, 2007 at 05:13 AM
Did you read your own post Pmom? 2 had charges dismissed, 1 is pending dismisal, and 1 is going to trial. 1/2 are already found innocent and 2 are not even tried yet.
Tom gave me heck yesterday for trying to condemn Hillary’s campaign supporters indicted for crimes, but not yet tried or convicted.
But for Democrats, a DIFFERENT standard applies. The seriousness of the charge, and not the court, is what convicts someone.
Hmmm…..
Here we have a US Congressman, BEFORE any indictments, before any charges, before any convictions saying this about US Marines in Haditha:
“We had an incident in Haditha where a Marine was killed by an IED. Time magazine reported it and it’s kind of a puzzling report because they’re investigating it right now. But let me tell you what the consequences of this have been. It’s much worse than has been reported in Time magazine,” Murtha said at the press conference. “There was no firefight. There was no IED that killed these innocent people. Our troops overreacted because of the pressure on them, and they killed innocent civilians in cold blood.”
Who’s side is Murtha on? Murtha’s words were great propaganda for Iraqi insurgents and Al Queda. And great morale breakers for US troops in combat. (Is Murtha related to Jane Fonda?)
An American(?) Congressmen convicting US Marines before they are charged/convicted with anything?
And now Murtha is being sued by the innocent Marines for defaming them.
I can’t wait to hear Murtha testify.
Will Murtha’s testimony get any press at all? This lawsuit hasn’t.
Will Murtha apologize to these Marines for defaming them? Will he apologize to America for attacking US Marines in combat? Will he tell Al Queda and the Insurgents that he was wrong in condemning America?
Murtha is part of the Blame America crowd. Who else is on Murtha’s side?
Rhonda takes Murtha out of context?
Not new. She’s a right wing flack.
The surge is having some effect?
Yes well,
Domestic violence DOES tend to subside….while the cops are on the porch.
Murtha is of the old school officer corp where if you breathed you got promoted. I doubt seriously if they would even retain Murtha in today’s military, less promote him to Colonel.
Murtha will probably get away with his statements and some sort of ruling will kick in about suing sitting Congressman.
back later in the day..
Has anyone denied that the surge helped to stabilize? The real test is, however, if it can be sustained without our presence, and I don’t believe it will.
Posted by: political_mom | December 02, 2007 at 05:03 AM
Yes Pmom, last summer, before the surge had a chance to work, Democrats were crying that it wasn’t working.
This Murtha news story, wouldn’t be a news story IF Murtha had NOT condemned the surge and condemned American troops in the first place.
Max
How long are you prepared to commit US troops to Iraq?
Surge Denials, a Problem for All Democrats who opposed the Surge:
November 29, 2007Read More: Iraq
Murtha’s comments on ’surge’ are a problem for House Democrats
Rep. John Murtha (D-Pa.), one of the leading anti-war voices in the House Democratic Caucus, is back from a trip to Iraq and he now says the “surge is working.” This could be a huge problem for Speaker Nancy Pelosi (D-Calif.) and other Democratic leaders, who are blocking approval of the full $200 billion being sought by President Bush for combat operations in Iraq in 2008.
Murtha’s latest comments are also a stark reversal from what he said earlier in the year. The Pennsylvania Democrat, who chairs the powerful Defense Subcommittee on the House Appropriations Committee, has previously stated that the surge “is not working” and the United States faced a military disaster in Iraq.
Murtha told CNN on July 12, following a Bush speech, that the president’s views on the success of surge in Iraq were “delusional.”
“Well it’s delusional to say the least,” Murtha told CNN’s Wolf Blitzer. “As I said earlier, and you heard me say it, it’s a failed policy wrapped in illusion. Nothing’s gotten better. Incidents have increased. We have had more Americans killed in the last four months than any other period during the war.”
Murtha added: “I don’t acknowledge there has been any progress made. Maybe in Baghdad. But it just breaks out someplace else. We called for extra troops two years ago. We put money in for 30,000 troops. They haven’t even been able to raise the 30,000 troops they have. So they have to break all their guidelines. But there’s no progress being made.”
Back on June 3, during an appearance on ABC’s “This Week,” Murtha bashed the White House for “making excuses” on Iraq.
“They [the White House] keep saying the news media is being negative,” Murtha said. “They keep making excuses for the lack of progress. I’ve been hearing this month after month and I’m absolutely convinced right now the surge isn’t working and I’m convinced that if they don’t pay attention to what I’m saying and a lot of other members of Congress are saying they’re going to have a disaster on their hands because the American public want the troops out of Iraq.”
More Murtha comments from the same interview: “I’m absolutely convinced the first step to stability in Iraq is redeployment and what they’re saying, when you look at the figure, the figures that you and I see, the figures that we use all the time, oil production below pre-war level, electricity below pre-war level, a couple of hours of electricity in Baghdad some days and 60 percent unemployment some parts of Iraq. I mean, there’s no way you’re going to have success.”
And here’s Murtha from an interview on CBS’ “Face the Nation” on April 29: “The progress that they talk about is not there. Any of the economic things that I’ve seen doesn’t show any progress. We’ve had 330 people killed since the surge began. More people killed in the last four months that were killed at any other time during the war. Fifty-three percent increase in American deaths. And this White House keeps saying we’re making progress.”
http://www.politico.com/blogs/thecrypt/1107/Murthas_comments_on_surge_may_be_a_big_problem_for_House_Democrats.html
How long Max?
Now the Democrat Koolaide Mantra is:
“The surge is working, but there is no political progress in Iraq.”
6 months from now when there is political progress in Iraq, what will the next Democrat Koolaide Mantra be?
MOM I am sorry but that is a straw man, it takes a majority to pass a bill it also takes a majority to vote down a bill. I once responded to a board member who said that our cash annuity that could be put toward the insurance premium was not meant to be considered a part of our wages. I said “you throw a drowning man a rope. He is not going to take the time to consider your motivation, your intent may have been to hang him with it! But he is still going to be damn glad you throw the rope!”.
IF the Democrats were serious about ending the war they could simply de-fund it, they can not force Bush to change the strategy. So they unwillingness to de-fund is just a matter of political concern and not for the country or our troops. The surge is a tactic and one that works for a short period of time. But it is not a winning strategy, there is no foreseeable end. There is no meaningful accomplishment, the enemy is just held to a line but is still the enemy. The is how our commitment ended up in Korea, that is the only argument for continuing to have our troops there. FIFTY YEARS LATER! If the argument is to have a U.S. military presents in the middle east, let us find a willing host country not a forced occupied country. That only gives cause for our presents there to be a point of contention. A forceful enemy to those in the region, if the other countries in the region have a legitimate concern about Iran. WE could back them in their own force protection, a bully is only strong when the littler kids do not stand up to the bully. Also most every country in the region has its own Army and Air force. And of course if all either fails there is Israel and they are a mad Pit bull on a short leash. LOL there is more then likely more danger of Israel wiping Iran off the map then Iran wiping Israel off.
How long do we keep US troops in Iraq max?
JR, doesn’t matter how long I am committed.
Hillary is committed to 2013.
Well bush’s mess in not easily cleaned up Max.
His handlers, they KNEW that.
It’s simply another case of George WMD Bush moving the goalposts.
The “surge” was supposed to provide the Iraqi some breathing room to get their act together.
So there are is less violence in Iraq. The tactic succeeded. The troops succeeded. And it’s now time to start withdrawing American “surge” troops from Iraq. And just how has the Iraqi government progressed in this period of relative peace?
The answer is: nada, butkis, nuthin’ and nope.
As the Surge troops come homw, we’ll see just how stable Iraq has become. If the relative reduction of violence continues, *then,* the advocates of the Surge will have something to crow about… provided the Iraqis use the relative peace to establish their new government. If the reduction of Surge troops results in an increase in violence, the Surge will be proven to be a worthless enterprise.
Jack Murtha, throughout his congressional career, has been a strong supporter of America’s military. And, yes, the kids on the ground in Iraq have performed brilliantly. But the mission George WMD Bush has sents them is flawed and wrong and without purpose.
For the Republic Party to latch onto the skill and and achievements of the best military force on the planet and somehow take credit from their accomplishments as some sort of justification for Shrub’s misguided policy is obscene.
I can pretty much guarantee you that is, say, 20,000 troops were headquarted at 21st and Oliver, there’d be a reduction of drive-by shootings in the neighborhood… as long as the soldiers were there. But there’s nothing that would solve the problem of gang-related violence when that “surge” ended.
George WMD Bush’s “Surge” was not sold to us as an end unto itself. It was supposed to provide an environment that would allow the Iraqi government to establish itself.
*That* purpose has failed miserably, despite the excellence of the U.S. military.
If anyone would bother to read the full context of Jack Murtha’s statement, they’d realize that George WMD Bush’s “surge” is an abject failure in terms of tactics and goals. The only-est people who’ve produced are the troops in the Sand Box.
We have a great military. But the mission George WMD Bush has sent them on is a fool’s errand.
And we all know who the fool is.
Koolaide Mantra Monkey.
Just repeat over and over:
“The surge is working, but there is no political progress in Iraq.”
6 months from now when there is political progress in Iraq, what will the next Democrat Koolaide Mantra be?
Oh, and don’t forget to say:
“I hate Bush!”
(And you love Hillary?)
Ah, “Max” –
“6 months from now…”
Shall we all take this as gospel as when (The Big) Dick Cheney told us in June 2003 that the “insurgents are in their last throes”?
I really wonder about your connection with reality, “Max.” I’m well on the record in this forum as being an advocate for John Edwards’ candidacy. My second choice is Barak Obama. I think Senator Clinton would be a competent President of the United States but I think she’s far better for the republic as a Senator.
And you assert I “love Hillary”?!
The Des Moines Register’s latest poll reveals that you, “Max,” are backing the three also-rans in the Republic Party race. Mike Huckabee leads in Iowa and your three choices (Thompson, Giuliani, and Romney) are going nowhere.
Why should anyone take your opinions seriously, “Max?” You obviously are out of touch with your party, with your nation, and with rational thought.
So do you really see the Iraqis stepping up to the plate, Max? Be honest, please.I don’t really see any Middle Eastern leader that will live up to the expectations of this administration, do you?
Don’t give up on Max just yet Monkeyhawk.
Even he has some concerns as to urban sprawl and our future energy problems.
Ah but then he has to go say something like…
“6 months from now when there is political progress in Iraq, what will the next Democrat Koolaide Mantra be?”
Hey Max?
6 months from now is June almost.
SO what the Iraqi government will likely be doing is getting ready to go on vacation. If past is any prediction.
Sometimes Max, you remind me of the man who falls or jumps from a 20 story building. As he falls past a window he is asked,
“How’s it going?”
His answer? “So far so good!”
Mary,
I think you have it all wrong.
I don’t really see anything which happens in Iraq living up to the expectations of the left in America.
That wasn’t what I asked, Nathan…how about you? Do you see any Middle Eastern leader that is going to live up to the expectations of THIS administration? Just anwser the question…if so, then WHO?
I bet Nathan nor Max will honestly try to answer my question.
Please, “Mary Caruso” –
Don’t confuse “Max” with facts. He’s not capable of processing reality.
“Max” has demonstrated he lives in an ideological fantasy land that has no relevance to what’s actually happening in this nation or this world.
“Max” is a frightened, craven, quaking coward whose only-est election issue is his right to express his love for firearms.
“Max” has wet dreams thinking about Frederick of Hollywood going to a gun show and considering it “a little piece of Heaven.”
People like “Max” are a joke. A bad joke. An un-funny joke. A sick joke.
Mary,
What are these “expectations” you don’t think they will live up to of this administration?
“Nathan” –
The purpose of the “Surge” was to stablize life in Iraq so its government would establish a degree of politcal strength.
How’s that been going, “Nathan?”
“A free and peaceful Iraq capable of defending itself and being an ally in the war on terror.”
I THINK that is the LATEST incarnation ala bush of victory in Iraq.
Max or Nathan can opine how soon THAT is gonna happen.
I’d say……oh maybe 70 years. of course, none of us will be around then.
My apologies in advance for the lengthy post – but I do believe some ahhh clarification is needed:
“Murtha is of the old school officer corp where if you breathed you got promoted. I doubt seriously if they would even retain Murtha in today’s military, less promote him to Colonel.
Murtha will probably get away with his statements and some sort of ruling will kick in about suing sitting Congressman.
back later in the day..
Posted by: Kansas | December 02, 2007 at 09:32 AM ]”
Read the following then make the same statement you loser. You have no honor no integrity — fortunately most people here know you do not represent the military in any way shape or form — I defy Nathan to agree with you;;;;
Military/defense serviceCongressman Murtha is so well-respected for his first-hand knowledge of military and defense issues that he has been a trusted adviser to presidents of both parties on military and defense issues and is one of the most effective advocates for the national defense in the country. He is the Chairman of the Defense Appropriations Subcommittee,
a Vietnam combat veteran and a retired Marine Corps colonel with 37 years of service,
a rare combination of experience that enables him to understand defense and military operations from every perspective.
He learned about military service from the bottom up, beginning as a raw recruit when he left Washington and Jefferson College in 1952 to join the Marines out of a growing sense of obligation to his country during the Korean War. There he earned the American Spirit Honor Medal, awarded to fewer than one in 10,000 recruits.
He rose through the ranks to become a drill instructor at Parris Island
and was selected for Officer Candidate School at Quantico, Virginia.
He then was assigned to the Second Marine Division, Camp Lejeune, North Carolina.
In 1959, Captain Murtha took command of the 34th Special Infantry Company, Marine Corps Reserves, in Johnstown. He remained in the Reserves after his discharge from active duty until he volunteered for Vietnam in 1966-67, where he served as the S-2 intelligence officer for the 1st Battalion, 1st Marine Regiment, 1st Marine Division and received the Bronze Star with Combat “V”, two Purple Hearts and the Vietnamese Cross of Gallantry. The official notification of award for his Bronze Star and Purple Hearts are available to view here. He remained in the Reserves until his retirement. This first-hand knowledge of military and defense issues has made him a trusted adviser to presidents of both parties and one of the most effective advocates for the national defense in Washington. At the request of Presidents and Speakers of the House, he served as chairman of delegations monitoring elections in the Philippines, El Salvador, Panama and Bosnia.He was awarded the Navy Distinguished Service Medal by the Marine Corps Commandant when he retired from the Marines.
The decrease in violence is parially a product of once you clean out the other side from your neighborhood (enclave) it is not necessary to keep cleaning thme out, they are either dead or fled.So after spiking, quite naturally the number of murders will steadily decrease. The next spike will come after we leave and the enclaves are fre to attack one another. Then all hell will break loose. So we either maintain the policing indefinitely, or allow what will be.
Wow Monkey!
You take the Iowa polls as gospel.
And you assume that how Iowa votes, so goes the nation.
Huckabee may very well win in Iowa. Elsewhere?
So to attack my credibility on the basis of my support of 3 Republicans in the Primary, is like attacking your credibility for supporting Kerry in 2004.
JR, the mantra is there.
6 months ago, no one was crying about the lack of political progress in Iraq.
Now that the surge has worked to curb violence (though the job is not done), the mantra has changed to crying about the lack of political progress.
And everyone repeats the same lines.
You all read the same web sites, limited to the ilk of democratunderground.com.
And the talking points put out, get repeated by all.
Like chanting brainwashed monkeys.
Mary, I see the political progress in Iraq progressing about as fast as the political process in America.
The Dem majority Congress takes a 2 week Thanksgiving break without having passed the 12 budgets that were due 10/1/07, two months ago.
The Dems have yet to fund the Iraq war thru 2008, though they will.
And we still have pressing issues unaddressed like:
-Sealing the Borders.
-Solving the Social Security/Medicare Fiscal crisis.
-Getting America on the path to Energy Independence.
Is that the type of progress you expect of the Iraqi Government?
If so, then they have already met your expectations.
Nathan only anwers questions with questions, and Max ignores me altogether…what did I tell you?Neither one will answer my question:…aAre there any Middle Eaastern leaders that will effectively try to meet the expectations of this administration…and for clarification, Nathan, are there any Middle Eastern leaders that are willing or capable to step up to the plate in the war on terror and the commitment to democracy, so that eventually we can bring most of our troops home?
Ken, no one questions Murtha’s past military service.
Anyone who is honest, would question his comments condemning American troops in Haditha, Iraq before they are even charged, tried, and convicted.
“We had an incident in Haditha where a Marine was killed by an IED. Time magazine reported it and it’s kind of a puzzling report because they’re investigating it right now. But let me tell you what the consequences of this have been. It’s much worse than has been reported in Time magazine,” Murtha said at the press conference. “There was no firefight. There was no IED that killed these innocent people. Our troops overreacted because of the pressure on them, and they killed innocent civilians in cold blood.”
Other Murtha remarks at the 9:39 post.
Max, like Nathn, the only thing you’ve done is avoid my direct question and turned it around into Democrat or liberal bashing.
Which Middle Eastern leader do you think is willing to take on the monumental of leading their people in the fight on terrorism and the spread of democracy? Can you name at least one that has any potential?
I meant “monumental task”.
In 1945 Mary, you couldn’t answer that exact question about Germany, Italy, or Japan.
The answer for Iraq is that it will take a few years for the Iraqi government to completely form itself and determine its own path.
It took years for the American government to form and establish its own path after the British were defeated in 1781. The peace treaty with Britain was not signed until 1783.
It took until 1787 to complete the Constitution.
It was ratified by 11 of the 13 Colonies in 1789, when the 1st US Congress convened. It was ratified by all 13 Colonies by 1790.
I would say Iraq is much farther ahead of the pace of our own Government when it was formed.
And as for the US Congress, with Dem leaders like Murtha in the majority, do you suppose they will work 2 full weeks between their 2 week Thanksgiving break, and their 3 week Christmas break?
Do you see in the next 2 weeks:
Congress passing all 12 budgets that were due 10/1/07?
Congress funding the Iraq war thru 12/08?
It must be nice for Congress to take so much vacation, while hard-working American taxpayers keep toiling away.
It might be a deserved vacation IF Congress was doing its job.
Way to take his comments out of context Rhonda. That’s conservative media reporting as usual.
“The military surge has created a window of opportunity for the Iraqi government,” Murtha said Friday. “Unfortunately, the sacrifice of our troops has not been met by the Iraqi government and they have failed to capitalize on the political and diplomatic steps that the surge was designed to provide.”
Monkey, your 10:29 post has no substance whatsoever, other then to reflect a very frustraited old helpless man or woman.
Talk to Chas, when he gets out of church (between his 2 am and 6 am blog schedule)and perhaps Chas will be able to show you the path to serenity.
LOL
Mary’s got the question, anybody got the answer?
Who’s the Middle East leader today who can take spilt American blood and US dollars, spilt and spent TODAY, and convert it to democracy TODAY?
Not next year, not ten years from now, not in the next generation, but TODAY?
So how long, Max? What do you think a reasonable timetable for Iraq to get it’s act together and take resposibilty for it’s own safety and security?Do you see us out of there in OUR lifetime?I just don’t see any real leaders emerging, and the ones that are in place can’t seem to overcome the influence of the Islamic clerics, it’s as though they can’t take a strong stand and keep the faith of their fellow Muslims…which they care more about than what we envision for them. The Islamic clerics have more power to influence the people than any democratically elected leader does…maybe we need to focus more on the religious leaders than the elected ones to influence the direction the country should take?
LOL, just watch the sides flip here.
The question Mary’s asking is one that only a traditional Republican would have asked in 2000.
What do you want to bet that somebody real soon will accuse me of anti-American acts, acts up to and including treason, for asking it today?
Uh, Max,
I question his past military record! It seems to get better and become more embellished as time goes by!
I’m not the only one that questions his record. Murtha made a big deal out of his military service and awards, but like John (I-served-in-Viet-Nam)F.(I’m-also-so-tough-I-recieved-three-purple-hearts-with-no-apparent-need-for-medical-attention) Kerry hr won’t sign the form 180 releasing his military records.
http://www.cnsnews.com/ViewSpecialReports.asp?Page=/SpecialReports/archive/200601/SPE20060113a.html
Murtha is a despicable excuse for a human being.
BTW, I don’t think we should leave Iraq until we fix what we broke…no matter how long it takes.
Even if we manage through some miracle to put it all back together, the damage done to our country with this misguided war won’t be healed in our lifetime.
Murtha is a despicable excuse for a human being.Posted by: Hank Price | December 02, 2007 at 12:14 PM
Don’t know anything about his personal life, but he’s clearly a brave American, VERY brave, in his public one.
TODAY!
Pendant, you and your Dems want INSTANT GRATIFICATION.
All the problems of the world will be solved INSTANTLY! Anything less is failure!
See my 12:02 post if you want the answer.
Or just vote for Hillary hoping she will bring you instant gratification and see what she brings you.
I know you will not allow Hillary to make excuses and you will hold her up to the same high standards and scrutiny as you do President Bush.
BTW, I don’t think we should leave Iraq until we fix what we broke…no matter how long it takes.
Even if we manage through some miracle to put it all back together, the damage done to our country with this misguided war won’t be healed in our lifetime.Posted by: Mary Caruso | December 02, 2007 at 12:17 PM
6 months ago, Democrats were crying for immediate surrender and retreat from Iraq. (Even in the last couple of weeks the Dem Congress put a timetable in their funding bill for Iraq)
Now the closer we get to Hillary being President, the cover is already forming. We must now stay the course in Iraq and finnish the job.
The Democratic Socialist Hypocrite Party of America! Gotta love it!
When you Libs go to pull that Democrat handle in the voting booth, you will know that all the worlds problems will be solved Instantly!
And I look forward to repeated attacks on the adminstration, by me if not by you.
All the problems of the world will be solved INSTANTLY! Anything less is failure!
See my 12:02 post if you want the answer.
I know you will hold up [the next president] to the same high standards and scrutiny as you do President Bush.Posted by: Max | December 02, 2007 at 12:18 PM
I’ve removed the unhelpful, non-clarifying partisanship from your question.
And yes, I want results TODAY. Anybody who calls or thinks of themself as a steward of America and her resources WOULD ASK THE SAME QUESTION.
That’s one of the reasons it’s so difficult to take your SS and Medicare questions seriously, Max. One minute you’re a steward of our resources, the next minute you flip flop and become an out of control spender.
There’s nothing wrong with the question. Asking it, and demanding answers, is called TRUE American leadership.
Something we haven’t seen in these parts for quite a while.
Sorry Max, I don’t fit into your little black and white box..I never said the things you accuse me of..and I don’t like Hilary Clinton..you need to open your mind and quite assuming that all Democrats think alike, because everytime you post, you lose a little more credibility.So do you have an answer to my original question?
No, of course not..
Don’t know anything about his personal life, but he’s clearly a brave American, VERY brave, in his public one.
Posted by: Pedant | December 02, 2007 at 12:18 PM
Yep, Very brave. Takes a lot of courage to defame the honor and valor of or brave Marines from the floor of Congress.
The following is a letter dated December 9th 2006 to the traitor Murtha from LTC Christopher J. Stark IN USAR:
“Representative Murtha:
“During the dark days of the American Revolution the Commanding General, George Washington, seemed unable to win any victories. There were wholesale desertions, troops were starving, the fledgling government was sporadic with money, food and ammunition in short supply. Out of this darkness emerged a genuine American Hero. This officer brilliantly led his troops in combat and though seriously, and almost mortally wounded, won victory after victory for the desperate and beleaguered American Continental Army.
“After helping to turn the tide of war in the favor of the Americans, this officer’s fame grew as did his prestige, but his prowess on the battlefield, his courage under fire and indeed all of his life, is forgotten because of one act. His name is now synonymous with “traitor” in the dictionary. General Benedict Arnold, like you, had a brilliant military career of courage, honor, and sacrifice. Like you, in my opinion, he was a traitor to his country and to his oath as an American soldier. It is indeed fitting that you are member of the same political party as another traitor and seditionist, former Lieutenant John Kerry USN, who betrayed his country, not only on the very floor of the House of Representatives that you now serve, but also, secretly, in the presence of our enemies in Paris, France.
“Unlike you, he is a self proclaimed warrior and you earned your decorations, but the pair of you forgot one important thing. The United States of America and indeed the world are at war. We are at war with an implacable enemy. An enemy of racist, bigoted, fanatics whose sole goal in life is to destroy the people of the United States of America, their culture and their religion. More American civilians have died on U.S. soil in this war than died on our shores in World War I, World War II, Korea, Vietnam, Grenada, Panama, and Dessert Storm put together.
“We are at war, Murtha, and your actions and conduct give aid and comfort to our enemies. Just in case you have forgotten the definition of treason and sedition, I have attached Webster’s definition as Tabs A and B to this letter.
“A wise man once said, “There are no former Marines, only dead Marines.” He was wrong. You are not a Marine. You have lost the right to use that title. You have dishonored all of those who have fought and died up to the day you stood on the floor of the House of Representatives and demanded that we withdraw immediately. You lied to the press, when you said you did not make that statement. I watched you make that statement. Albeit your Bill, submitted, which I have also read, added a caveat, “as soon as practicable.” That is pure horseshit and you know it.
“Yes, Representative Murtha, you have given aid and comfort to our enemies in a time of war. You have given them hope, which they have fast been losing, due to all of the victories and sacrifice by our sons and daughters on the field of battle in Iraq and Afghanistan. You have been honored by our enemies on the front page of Al Jazeera. Kerry has a hallowed spot in the Hall of Heroes in the Museum of the Revolution in Ho Chi Minh City, Vietnam.
“No, you are no longer a Marine. Your soul is dead. Your honor is dead, and without a soul or honor, you are nothing.
“Be advised, my son is a Marine Officer. He has commanded men in battle through two (2) tours and he is due to return to Iraq on a third tour. If he should be harmed in any way as a result of your actions on the floor of the House this week, I will do everything in my power to see to it that you are driven from office and that you are charged and tried for treason and sedition.
“The Marine Officer whose message was read on the House Floor by fellow member of Congress, Jean Schmidt, was right. You are a coward. Marines do not cut and run.
“Fortunately, your obesity prevents you from wearing your Marine Uniform with even a semblance of pride, but I know your face. If I am in a room when you arrive, you will not enter. If you are in a room, when I arrive, you will leave. It is as simple as that.
OUT.
LTC Christopher J. Stark IN USAR”
My sentiments exactly!
Hank, You make a habit of slamming everybody’s military record everytime they say something you don’t agree with…Is YOUR record the standard to judge everyone else’s by? I don’t remember you ever spending 5 years in a POW camp…yet you have even bashed McCain. I don’t get it.
The letter means nothing Hank. Just someone who disagreed with his view of things, nothing more.
What do you think, Hank? Any good leaders in the Middle East that will help turn the tide against terrorists?
Gotta go, I have a week’s worth of paperwork calling my name.
I’ll check back later to see how many bothered to answer my question.
It’s just these Bush dead-enders, Mary. For them it’s ALL partisanship, ALL the time.
If they didn’t have that, they’d have to see the emperor Augustus Stupidus as the rest of us do, without clothes.
At least Hank’s naked partisanship is easy to spot. Max’s is trickier.
Dear Mary,
McCain says a lot that I don’t agree with. If I ’slammed his war record’ every time I’d be writing constantly.
If a politician uses his war record as a qualification for election then it is fair game for examination.
Bush never used his military service to run for office but he still signed all the forms required to allow a thorough examination of his records.
Murtha hasn’t and neither has Kerry.
My record? It was a pretty good one. I’m pretty proud of it. I have two medals that the circumstances are to the best of my knowledge are still classified. If you are interested I will sign all of the forms required for you to have access to my military records.
I also have my records on micro fiche if you’re really interested.
Fact. Between Murtha and Kerry there are five purple hearts. Five purple hearts and not one day in the hospital. Five purple hearts and neither brave war hero that has used their war record to run for office will sign the paperwork required to find the facts.
Any other ‘war heroes’ that I have slammed in the past?
Now, what other
Hank,
# 1 — Kerry already signed that Form 180 — Thats old news.. Keep up, man…
# 2 — Not long ago, you were shouting FOUL when an advertisement ran in the NY Times labeling a General as General Betrayus… (a term coined by none other than Rush Limbaugh about another individual)
# 3 — NOW you come along, and declare a decorated 37 year WAR veteran, Murtha, as despicable!
How much flip flopping do you want to try for?? You competing for a Gold Medal in the FF olympics??
Get a grip!! Murtha has every right to the positions he takes in Congress… But, I guess you would rather support an out of control murdering marine (yea the one who wants to sue Murtha is the one going on trial) than a 37 year VETERAN!!
My goodness, such loyalty!!
Lets not push that too far, Rev. Might not be nice to do that… and hey, it IS Sunday!! :-)
ChasKerry did not release his records, prior the the last presidential election.
You libs keep claiming, on this Blog, that Kerry has released his records.
It is hard to prove a negative. Can you show me where Kerry signed the form to release records?
I would think that he would publish a copy of that form, since he has taken so much heat for keeping his records under wraps.
Google it Econ — it’s old news!!
Sort of humorous to see some folks still trying to use something that doesnt exist as an argument for something that does!! :-)
Here Econ — Read it, and then stop with your stupid accusations >>>>
http://www.powerlineblog.com/archives/010795.php
Rev JimYou made up that quote. Ann Coulter is very supportive of the military.Ann often goes the the exteme to make a point, and I wish she would be more careful. However, she has NEVER said anything close to what you claim she said about the military.
She holds our military in very high regard.
Chas,To say that a politician has “betrayed us” as in Limbaugh calling Republican Senator Hagel “Senator Betrayus” is one thing. Politicians have “entered the arena” of verbal conflict. Though we should be careful about facts, when verbally attacking a “public figure” it is recognized, in American law, that public figures, especially politicians, have far less defense against slander or libel than a private citizen.Limbaugh, rightly, is upset at Hagel for being a very disloyal Republican.You libs bash Democrats that come off sounding like Republicans, you do it on this BLOG all the time.
To ask a politician not to betray the party, in political terms, just does NOT compare in any way to what MOVEON.ORG did, concerning General Petraeus.
A military General can only “betray” us, in one way: by committing TREASON! It was offensive for anyone to attack the General’s character.
The American people were smart enough to understand the difference between Hagel, a politician, being called names, politically, and a US General, being called names that could only mean criminal TREASON, if true.
ChasDamn, you fell into the trap rather quickly, you are usually more careful, arent you?:
“UPDATE: The only apparent anomaly in the Form 180s is that they only authorize the release of Kerry’s active duty records, not his reserve records. This could well be important, in that Kerry’s antiwar activities occurred when he was a member of the reserves. On the other hand, some think that the language of the 180 is broad enough that the Navy may have released Kerry’s reserve records, even though not specifically instructed to.
The people who know, of course, are the reporters to whom the documents were sent. This is a very weird procedure–authorizing the records to be released, but only to specified reporters. It raises obvious questions: did the reporters discuss their role with Kerry or his representative before they were designated to receive the records? Were they required to agree not to make the records public, but only to report on them? What other discussions did they have with Kerry or his representatives? Are they willing to release the records, or at a minimum give us an inventory of what they received so that we can assess the completeness of the disclosure? I have phone calls in to two of the reporters, and will attempt to interview them.”—-I am STILL correct, Kerry did NOT release his RESERVE records.Kerry’s Dishonorable Discharge, For the Good of the Service Discharge or Bad Conduct Discharge was probably overturned or rehabilitated/expunged under the Jimmy Carter Amnesty program.
If Kerry did actually receive an initial discharge, under less than Honorable condititions, such discharge would have happened while Kerry was in the RESERVES!
Kerry did not release those records, did he?
I wanted to work off of YOUR post, and your LINK, and your link has proven my point!|
Here is Kerry’s DD-214:
http://www.papillonsartpalace.com/jodhn.htm
There are several problems with this document.
First, there is no such thing as a “Silver Star with a Combat V” — but that is what it says on this form.
Such a mistake would indicate that the military clerk, retyping the form, had little experience with combat decorations. Such a mistake would indicate that this document was produced long after the Vietnam War was over.
The next HUGE problem is the “service termination date” of 17 February 1972.
This would indicate that John Kerry, the anti-war activist, either “re-upped” for continued reserve duty, after his initial obligation had expired, or: That this is the date that Kerry took advantage of the Carter Amnesty Program!
http://www.swiftvets.com/article.php?story=20040820071715324
http://www.militarycorruption.com/kerry3.htm
The above for background.
Where Kerry is concerned, you might also look at the fact that his DD-214, listed on his webpage, during his Presidential campaign, listed a lower rank than his biography says that he achieved.
As Thomas Sowell notes, this could ONLY happen if Kerry were the subject of some sort of disciplinary hearing or court-martial:
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1346099/posts
“One document whose authenticity is not likely to be questioned by the mainstream media is the honorable discharge on Senator John Kerry’s web site. Yet who in the major media has investigated why that honorable discharge is dated during the Carter administration, when Kerry’s military service ended years earlier? This is the same media that spent months investigating George W. Bush’s military record and, even after key allegations were revealed to be based on forgeries, continued publicizing rumors and innuendoes. They didn’t stop even after the President signed Form 180, opening all his military records to the public. But who in the major media has asked why John Kerry would need to be issued an honorable discharge during the Carter administration, years after leaving the navy, unless his original discharge was less than honorable?”
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1345874/posts
Rev Jim
Try to keep up, would you?
The point I am making is CLEAR, here.
No matter what happened in Vietnam, concerning John Kerry, something very strange has happened to Kerry’s records.
1.)Kerry has NEVER released his entire military service record to the PUBLIC. He only released his Active Duty records to specific journalists who have NOT entirely released what they received. Kerry’s Reserve records were never released.
2.) Kerry’s DD-214 list a “Combat V” on his Silver Star. This is not possible. This is not done. This award does not exist, in this combination.How did that happen? Either the DD-214 was forged, or, more likely, the DD-214 was produced long after the Vietnam War was over, and the Clerk, producing the form, did not notice the mistake.
3.) Kerry’s highest rank, listed in his biography, was HIGHER than the rank listed on his own, online, DD-214 discharge.This would only happen if Kerry were stripped of rank due to a disciplinary action.
4.) Why did the Jimmy Carter Administration have anything to do with John Kerry’s discharge, if not for the fact that Kerry took advantage of the Carter Amnesty program? The Vietnam war was long over, by the time Carter was President. Kerry’s military service, likewise, should have been long over by then.
# 1 — Kerry already signed that Form 180 — Thats old news.. Keep up, man…
# 2 — Not long ago, you were shouting FOUL when an advertisement ran in the NY Times labeling a General as General Betrayus… (a term coined by none other than Rush Limbaugh about another individual)
# 3 — NOW you come along, and declare a decorated 37 year WAR veteran, Murtha, as despicable!
Posted by: Chas. | December 02, 2007 at 12:49 PM
# 1 Yep, he released his records one time to ‘a reporter of the Boston Globe’, AP and the LA times. So what? He did not sign a blanket release allowing anyone to search his records. This was after the election. It also doesn’t answer the questions about his purple hearts.
# 2 The NYT allows Moveon.org to print that dispicable add at less than 50% of the going rate just before the General returns from Iraq to testify before congress. If you don’t think that it was foul, then you are despicable too.
# 3 When a decorated 37 year WAR veteran, like Murtha, uses his position as a congressman to defame the honor and integrity of active duty Marines that have not even been charged yet that is despicable!
Five purple hearts between Murtha and Kerry. No record of medical attention required, no hospital time, no lost time from duty. . .
And people like Chas, Pedant and Rev Jim swallow that crap like it was the gospel!
Looks like the trap is all yours Econ…
“On the other hand, some think that the language of the 180 is broad enough that the Navy may have released Kerry’s reserve records, even though not specifically instructed to.”
The FIRST document on my Link Kerry writes ALL Years… Go look at it again… It will enlarge it if you click on the picture… :-)
Hank,
You swallow the Right Wing and Swift Boat Vets spin crap, as if it was morphine, and you were an addict!! Get REAL for a change… The release of Kerry’s records is at the Link I posted… In HIS own writing… It doesnt matter WHO requested them… If you dont like what you have seen printed, take your gripe session to the Boston Globe… not to Kerry!!
Econ — All I had to do to prove you wrong on Kerry’s records is to show the release of those records to the Media… If you dont like what the Media did with those records… Blast the Boston Globe… and not Kerry!!
Hank.. What does it matter if the AD in the NYT puts down the General?? You have spent much blog time putting down a decorated War Veteran… actually MORE than just one… I have seen you put down at least THREE decorated war vets… The AD in the Times was mostly for emphasis that Petraeus was being USED by BushCo, in his reading of a report written by the White House!
Get over it!! Petraeus wasnt injured the way you want to injure Murtha, or Kerry, or Cleland!! Geez!!
Oh, and Hank, if some of YOUR records are classified… Maybe some of Kerry’s are classified as well… We wouldnt want anybody to suggest that yours are classified because you want to hide anything, would we??
Econ — What date are you claiming as Kerry’s final discharge?? I dont remember…
Chas,
I know where to get all of Bush’s records. I can’t get Kerry’s.
When you bash the Swift Boat Veterans for Truth you are bashing over 160 highly decorated Viet Nam war veterans.
Most of them non-political except for wanting to set the record straight on the lying, traitorous, dishonorable Kerry. Kerry was running on his war record. He never allowed it to be viewed during the campaign.
He has never signed an open form 180.
Max Cleland? Got blown up with his own grenade while going for a beer. At least we can see the results of his wounds! (took a little more than a bandaid!)
ChasBush released HIS records to hostile media who would have used any negatives against him.
Kerry did not, specifically, release his Reserve records, and he only released those records to his own, hand picked, journalists, who have, in return, not published everything that they received.
Nope, Chas, you blew it.
Kerry is obviously hiding something.
If not, he would have released this stuff PRIOR to the election.
Chas”What date” you ask?
That is the primary point.
The DD-214 that Kerry posts does not even say he was discharged from service, it says he was discharged to RESERVE duty.
To this day, there has been not one single piece of documentation that Kerry ever attended a Reserve meeting.
Go read the links I gave you.
You are not yet informed enough to ask any more questions.
Hank, how many people are awarded medals, and purple hearts for going after a beer??
Econ, what DATE are you using for Kerry’s final discharge…
And Hank, Kerry’s records are available at the Boston Globe… Ask them to send them to you…
IF Kerry is hiding something, why dont some of your righty tighties show some kind of evidence of WHAT he is hiding, instead of just posting propaganda??
OK so what date was he discharged from Reserve Duty?? I dont remember what date you stated earlier… Geez… Simple question, for the man who thinks he knows everything!!
Being discharged to Reserves — Is that some sort of crime?? I do believe lots of Nam vets were discharged to Reserve dute… I went to college with a number of Nam vets like that… Why do you think thats so unusual??
Isnt Nathan on Reserve status now?? Is that unusual??
ChasUse your brain, read and quit typing.
There are very few explanations for what John Kerry posted, on his own website.
The date makes little sense. The “Combat V” is never awarded as part of a Silver Star. The rank at Discharge makes no sense.
Unless, of course, Kerry had his discharge papers redone under the Carter Amnesty Program.
We have posted fact after fact after fact.
It is time for YOU to explain Kerry’s Reserve record. Where did he go for his Reserve Drills? When WAS Kerry Discharged from Reserve Duty? Why is Kerry the ONLY person in the history of the US Military to have a “combat V” on his Silver Star, which is completely against Military protocol?
Time for you to answer. When you are done, I will check your work and grant you some more questions.
Econ, I asked a simple question, and you want to make it a WAR!! I am not the one who has a problem with Kerry’s Navy service to his Country… Thats your gripe… All I asked for was what you posted as his final discharge date… I dont want to go look up any back posts right now…
ChasKerry would have received a Discharge FROM Reserves as well, another DD-214, where is it?
Also, how in the heck can you not understand that Kerry’s website posted a DD-214 which showed a Discharge from Active Duty to Reserves during the CARTER Administration.
You should, at least, admit that there are huge problems with the DD-214 that Kerry chose to show the public, on his website.
And BTW, Econ, what makes you such an Effin Expert?? Gee, would you treat your customers that way?? (Hey, thats what you guys always hit me with… turn about is fair play..)
So, when are YOU claiming that his active duty ended??
FIRST you want to see the Form 180 — I give you the Form 180 — NOW you change your WANT list, to a DD-214… Make up your damn mind, eh??
Chas
Part of the problem is that military members are not allowed to meet with foreign governments, with whom we are at war.Kerry shows his date of discharge as being long after the war was over.Kerry met with the Communist North Vietnamese, our enemy, in Paris, before the end of the Vietnam war.There are several problems with the date of discharge.To name a few:What Kerry can do as a private citizen is one thing, what he can do as a member of the Armed Forces is another.Kerry should have been out of the military, as far as Active Duty status, long before the date on his DD-214.Here, read some more:
http://www.papillonsartpalace.com/jokhkn.htm
Didn’t say any of my records were classified. The circumstances of two of my medals were classified when they were awarded to me. May or may not be now.
Want to see my DD214? Want me to sign a Form 180?
Kerry might be president today if he’d signed his during the campaign. Or not!
“As he was graduating from Yale, John Kerry volunteered to serve in Vietnam, because, as he later said, “it was the right thing to do.” He believed that “to whom much is given, much is required.” And he felt he had an obligation to give something back to his country. John Kerry served two tours of duty. On his second tour, he volunteered to serve on a Swift Boat in the river deltas, one of the most dangerous assignments of the war. He was awarded a Silver Star, a Bronze Star with Combat V, and three Purple Hearts.”http://www.johnkerry.com
Please note — Kerry received a Bronze Star with Combat V… A Silver Star… and 3 purple hearts… He did NOT receive a Silver Star with a V on it!! Geez…
Ummm Econ — If you cant be a military personnel, and meet with foreign leaders, that what about a couple of those Republican Congress persons who have met with foreign leaders during this fiasco of a War in Iraq??
Isnt one of them Lindsay Graham, or else Mitch McConnell??? I cant remember their names for sure… Do you want to hold them to the same scrutiny as you hold Kerry??? Or do you just have a been in your bonnet about Kerry??
Back Later. I have more important things to tend to now..
ChasWe are ALL confused on the Discharge date question.Kerry has not helped anyone figure that out:—–”Records released by Kerry’s campaign are confusing. There are indications that he was Honorably Discharged on Jan. 3, 1970, Feb 16, 1978, July 13, 1978 and even lately Mar. 12, 2001.
Why the confusion on a relatively simple service event? Could it be that John Kerry received a less than honorable discharge in the early 70’s because of his anti-war activities? And then was pardoned for those activities when then President Jimmy Carter on January 21, 1978 (Proclamation 4483) granted a full, complete and unconditional pardon to all persons who may have committed any offense between August 4, 1964 and March 28, 1973 in violation of the Military Selective Service Act or any rule or regulation promulgated there under?”—–http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1234234/posts
ChasThe DD-214 that KERRY posted on his website indicated a “Silver Star with Combat V” — an award that does not exist.
KERRY SAID IT ON HIS WEBSITE, not me!
Ah yes again.
The well known selective respect of the military from the right wing goon squad.
Ok, newcommers, here is the Best expanation that I can find, concerning Kerry’s discharge. My advice is to start here, first, to understand how weird this is:
http://beldar.blogs.com/beldarblog/2004/10/was_kerrys_orig.html
But as to the topic the thread.
Anybody here want to sign up for the occupation of Iraq?Be honest.
Anybody here with kids or knows a young person who they would recommend military service just now?
Be honest.
Thank you. Next?
Here are TWO ANSWERS Mary. Stop acting like you can’t read.
You sound like a Parrot!
Let me spell it out for you Mary:
ANSWER #3
It took 9 years after the Revolutionary war ended before a Constitution was ratified (11 of 13 Colonies) and the 1st US Congress convened.
It will take 9 years after the Iraq war ends, before the Iraqi Government has complete control of their country and Americans can all leave.
The Iraqi Government has formed a constitution and their Government has already convened. So they have a head start, thanks to the help and sacrifice from American soldiers, and the Americans who support the soldiers.
When will the fighting end? When someone can predict the end of any war Mary, that same person will be able to predict interest rates and the weather.
It’s clear much progress has been made, and even that traitor Murtha admits that.
You want a precise and exact date? That’s not possible in YOUR black and white box Mary.
——————————————————————–So do you really see the Iraqis stepping up to the plate, Max? Be honest, please.
I don’t really see any Middle Eastern leader that will live up to the expectations of this administration, do you?Posted by: Mary Caruso | December 02, 2007 at 10:18 AM
——————————————————————–
I bet Nathan nor Max will honestly try to answer my question.Posted by: Mary Caruso | December 02, 2007 at 10:27 AM
——————————————————————–ANSWER #1
Mary, I see the political progress in Iraq progressing about as fast as the political process in America.
The Dem majority Congress takes a 2 week Thanksgiving break without having passed the 12 budgets that were due 10/1/07, two months ago.The Dems have yet to fund the Iraq war thru 2008, though they will.
And we still have pressing issues unaddressed like:
-Sealing the Borders.
-Solving the Social
Security/Medicare Fiscal crisis.
-Getting America on the path to Energy Independence.
Is that the type of progress you expect of the Iraqi Government?
If so, then they have already met your expectations.
Posted by: Max | December 02, 2007 at 11:43 AM
——————————————————————–
Nathan only anwers questions with questions, and Max ignores me altogether…what did I tell you?Neither one will answer my question:…aAre there any Middle Eaastern leaders that will effectively try to meet the expectations of this administration…and for clarification, Nathan, are there any Middle Eastern leaders that are willing or capable to step up to the plate in the war on terror and the commitment to democracy, so that eventually we can bring most of our troops home?Posted by: Mary Caruso | December 02, 2007 at 11:45 AM
——————————————————————–
Max, like Nathn, the only thing you’ve done is avoid my direct question and turned it around into Democrat or liberal bashing.Which Middle Eastern leader do you think is willing to take on the monumental of leading their people in the fight on terrorism and the spread of democracy? Can you name at least one that has any potential?Posted by: Mary Caruso | December 02, 2007 at 11:49 AM
——————————————————————–
ANSWER #2In 1945 Mary, you couldn’t answer that exact question about Germany, Italy, or Japan.
The answer for Iraq is that it will take a few years for the Iraqi government to completely form itself and determine its own path.
It took years for the American government to form and establish its own path after the British were defeated in 1781. The peace treaty with Britain was not signed until 1783.
It took until 1787 to complete the Constitution.
It was ratified by 11 of the 13 Colonies in 1789, when the 1st US Congress convened.
It was ratified by all 13 Colonies by 1790.
I would say Iraq is much farther ahead of the pace of our own Government when it was formed.
Posted by: Max | December 02, 2007 at 12:02 PM
——————————————————————–
So how long, Max? What do you think a reasonable timetable for Iraq to get it’s act together and take resposibilty for it’s own safety and security?
Do you see us out of there in OUR lifetime?
I just don’t see any real leaders emerging, and the ones that are in place can’t seem to overcome the influence of the Islamic clerics, it’s as though they can’t take a strong stand and keep the faith of their fellow Muslims…which they care more about than what we envision for them. The Islamic clerics have more power to influence the people than any democratically elected leader does…maybe we need to focus more on the religious leaders than the elected ones to influence the direction the country should take?Posted by: Mary Caruso | December 02, 2007 at 12:12 PM
——————————————————————–Sorry Max, I don’t fit into your little black and white box..I never said the things you accuse me of..and I don’t like Hilary Clinton..you need to open your mind and quite assuming that all Democrats think alike, because everytime you post, you lose a little more credibility.So do you have an answer to my original question?
No, of course not..Posted by: Mary Caruso | December 02, 2007 at 12:26 PM
Kerry did this to himself.
Kerry could have run an honest campaign, stating that he was a very conflicted man, during his Vietnam days, and he would have some degree of respect, in my books.
However, Kerry ran as a “war hero” and Kerry tried to hide his anti-war activity.
Kerry should have had the courage of his convictions, instead, Kerry has never told the truth about his past.
—–”An official Navy document on Senator Kerry’s campaign Web site listed as Mr. Kerry’s “Honorable Discharge from the Reserves” opens a door on a well kept secret about his military service.
The document is a form cover letter in the name of the Carter administration’s secretary of the Navy, W. Graham Claytor. It describes Mr. Kerry’s discharge as being subsequent to the review of “a board of officers.” This in itself is unusual. There is nothing about an ordinary honorable discharge action in the Navy that requires a review by a board of officers.”—–”According to the secretary of the Navy’s document, the “authority of reference” this board was using in considering Mr. Kerry’s record was “Title 10, U.S. Code Section 1162 and 1163.” This section refers to the grounds for involuntary separation from the service. What was being reviewed, then, was Mr. Kerry’s involuntary separation from the service. And it couldn’t have been an honorable discharge, or there would have been no point in any review at all. The review was likely held to improve Mr. Kerry’s status of discharge from a less than honorable discharge to an honorable discharge.”—-Again: Why did Claytor, Secretary of the Navy, under Jimmy Carter, have anything to say about John Kerry’s discharge?
I was still in the Marine Corps myself, when Lehman was in MY chain of command. John Kerry did NOT serve in uniform during the same time that I did. The only other explanation is that Kerry had his records upgraded under the Carter Amnesty Program.
And a BONUS 3rd Answer Mary!
ECON — Kerry’s web site STATES what medals he received… NONE of them was a silver star, with the “V” His WEB SITE says it was a Bronze Star with a “V” I already posted that earlier… What the hell are you arguing about??? Areyou in the same universe, or are you in a parallel universe??
Ummm Records cannot be upgraded by Amnesty… Better go check out that one again — All you got is a bunch of Reich Wing speculation!!! Carter wasnt even in office until January, 1977!!
Here… ONE MORE TIME!! Read it this time!!
http://www.johnkerry.com/about
Now, back later!!
ChasKerry has taken down most of the document that he origally posted on his site.However, the DD-214 that Kerry originally posted was clear:
http://www.papillonsartpalace.com/jodhn.htm
“However, Kerry ran as a “war hero” and Kerry tried to hide his anti-war activity.”
I would hard describe an anti-war speech on the floor of the Congress an attempt at trying to hid anti-war activity…
There is simply no crime in returning from foreign military service, and speaking out against an insane war!! We have Iraqi soldiers doing that every week right now!! What?? You want to execute them all for treason?? Geez!!
That’s one of the reasons it’s so difficult to take your SS and Medicare questions seriously, Max. One minute you’re a steward of our resources, the next minute you flip flop and become an out of control spender.
** There is a difference between entitlement spending and spending for defense in a time of war. National Defense is the #1 Priority for conservatives. Libs apparently couldn’t care less.
There’s nothing wrong with the question. Asking it, and demanding answers, is called TRUE American leadership.
**Asking a question when you know no one has an exact answer, is like asking what the temperature will be on July 1, 2009, then calling that person a liar and a failure when it’s 95 degrees instead of the forecast 90 degrees.
Asking and demanding answers is NOT leadership. Leadership does not come from Monday Morning Quarterbacks on the sidelines.
Something we haven’t seen in these parts for quite a while.
**Leadership? If there is one thing Bush has done is to lead consistently in this Iraq war. You disagree with his approach and his direction, but he has been steadfast the whole time.
Posted by: Pedant | December 02, 2007 at 12:26 PM
ECON — If you would look closely, the Bronze Star is for National Defense Service, with the combat V… The Silver Star is for Vietname Campaign, with a V… (maybe for Vietnam, as opposed to Europe, or a desk in Norfolk??) I suggest you check with the LTJG who signed the damn paper!!
And dont even start with the “Kerry wrote his own awards” because even liberals know that isnt possible!!
ChasYou can NOT speak against US Military policy or US Armed Conflicts while still in uniform.
Kerry did.
Kerry got in trouble for violations of the UCMJ.
Kerry used Carter’s Amnesty Program to upgrade his discharge.—–ChasDUHHHHHH to this one:
“Ummm Records cannot be upgraded by Amnesty… Better go check out that one again — All you got is a bunch of Reich Wing speculation!!! Carter wasnt even in office until January, 1977!!
Posted by: Chas. | December 02, 2007 at 03:38 PM “—-Precisely my point.
This is WHY Kerry will NOT release ALL of his records.
ChasAgain, the DD-214 that Kerry posted on his website lists the “Silver Star with Combat V” — an award that does not exist.
I suggest you type in “John Kerry DD-214″ on YOUR browser.
See what YOU come up with, would you?
So, now, just go find something more relevant to post on… ok??
This is all such OLD NEWS… Some of the posters on here werent even born when Kerry was serving in Nam!! Geez, he was commissioned in 1966, and discharged in 1972!!
BTW, that discharge is LONG before Carter even RAN for office!!
Hank good link you posted.
That certainly provides some insight into this ‘hero’ Murtha.
And I had forgotten he was involved with the Abscam sting by the FBI.
http://www.cnsnews.com/ViewSpecialReports.asp?Page=/SpecialReports/archive/200601/SPE20060113a.html
Well, why dont you go lead the charge to arrest all of these Iraqi Vets who are coming back saying we are NUTS for fighting in Iraq?? Maybe you would have fun executing them??
Econ, the DISCHARGE papers in YOUR LINK show the Silver Star, with a V… signed by a LTJG… And it says VIETNAM CAMPAIGN!! That is probably what the V means… Duhhhh….
Just get over it!! Kerry wasnt dishonorably discharged… that never happened… Why dont you contact the Office of the Navy?? Maybe they can explain it all to you in simple terms??
Nice try Max… Murtha was sure involved in Abscam… He didnt participate in it!! LOL That sure was a hopeless attempt!!
Chas
Try again.
You are completely ignoring the contradictions in Kerry’s time line.
The Jimmy Carter Administration was involved in John Kerry’s discharge, by Kerry’s own admission.
How can that be?
I would hard describe an anti-war speech on the floor of the Congress an attempt at trying to hid anti-war activity…
Posted by: Chas. | December 02, 2007 at 03:44 PM
Well Chas, there was a lot more to Kerry’s anti-war efforts than his disingenuous testimony before a sympathetic Senate committee. Much of this testimony has subsequently been proven to be a lie.
Time line Early April, 1969 — U.S. Naval Lieutenant John Kerry leaves Vietnam and is soon reassigned as a personal aide and flag lieutenant to Rear Admiral Walter F. Schlech, Jr. with the Military Sea Transportation Service based in Brooklyn, New York.
November, 1969 — In response to a public call from the Bertrand Russell foundation in New York, Jeremy Rifkin and Tod Ensign launch a new organization called Citizens Commissions of Inquiry (CCI) to publicize American war crimes in Indochina.
December, 1969 — Kerry requests an early discharge from the Navy in order to run for a Massachusetts congressional seat on an antiwar platform.
January 3, 1970 — Kerry is discharged from active duty and is transferred to the Naval Reserve (inactive).
February 13, 1970 — Candidate Kerry tells the Harvard Crimson, “I’m an internationalist. I’d like to see our troops dispersed through the world only at the directive of the United Nations,” and that he wants “to almost eliminate CIA activity.”
February, 1970 — CCI co-sponsors its first “commissions of inquiry” in Toronto and Annapolis MD, and begins providing accounts of war crimes to the press. During the next few months, the CCI holds events in Springfield Massachusetts, Richmond, New York City, Buffalo, Boston, Minneapolis, Los Angeles, and Portland Oregon.
March, 1970 — Kerry drops out of the Fourth District congressional race to make way for antiwar activist Father Robert F. Drinan, dean of Boston College Law School, and later becomes chairman of Drinan’s campaign. Drinan defeats pro-war incumbent Philip Philbin in the Democratic primary and goes on to win the general election.
May 7, 1970 — Kerry appears on The Dick Cavett Show for the first time, speaking in opposition to U.S. involvement in Vietnam.
May 23, 1970 — Kerry marries Julia Stimson Thorne in New York.
Late May, 1970 — John and Julia Kerry travel to Paris on a private trip. Kerry meets with Madam Nguyen Thi Binh, the Foreign Minister of the Provisional Revolutionary Government of Vietnam (PRG) — the political wing of the Vietcong — and with representatives of Hanoi who were in Paris for the peace talks.
June, 1970 — Kerry joins Vietnam Veterans Against the War (VVAW), a national veterans group that is part of the Peoples Coalition for Peace and Justice. The PCPJ is a broad coalition of local and national organizations, including the Communist Party, USA, “committed to conducting demonstrations aimed at ending the war in Indochina, and poverty, racism and injustice at home.” The VVAW, CCI and PCPJ all have headquarters at 156 Fifth Avenue in New York City. VVAW Executive Secretary Al Hubbard, a former Black Panther, is also on the coordinating committee of the PCPJ. Hubbard soon appoints Kerry to the VVAW’s Executive Committee, bypassing the normal election process.
August, 1970 — Al Hubbard asks Tod Ensign and Jeremy Rifkin of the CCI to join with the VVAW, the Reverend Dick Fernandez of Clergy and Laymen Concerned about Vietnam (CALCAV), Jane Fonda, Mark Lane and others to organize national hearings on war crimes. Lane suggests calling the hearings “Winter Soldier,” a play on the opening lines of Thomas Paine’s The American Crisis: “These are the times that try men’s souls. The summer soldier and the sunshine patriot will, in this crisis, shrink for the service of his country; but he that stands it now, deserves the love and thanks of man and woman.” By the end of the month the Winter Soldier Investigation has been planned as a simultaneous event featuring “Vietnamese victims” in Windsor, Canada, and Vietnam veterans in Detroit, connected by closed-circuit television.
September 4, 1970 — Operation RAW (Rapid American Withdrawal). Some 75 VVAW members begin a three-day hike to Valley Forge, Pennsylvania. Along the way they simulate war atrocities against civilians, and hand out flyers to townspeople stating that they might have been raped, murdered or tortured by the U.S. Infantry had they been Vietnamese, and claiming that “American soldiers do these things every day.”
September 7, 1970 — At the conclusion of Operation RAW, a rally is held in Valley Forge, featuring speeches by John Kerry, Jane Fonda, and Mark Lane. Fonda is quoted as saying that “…My Lai was not an isolated incident but rather a way of life for many of our military.”
September 11, 1970 — A VVAW Executive Committee meeting is attended by president Jan Crumb, executive secretary Al Hubbard, treasurer Jason Gettinger, Northeast representative John Kerry, and three others. The organization leadership decides to picket against the National Guard Association in New York, send Hubbard on a “speaking tour” with Jane Fonda, consider an “appropriate induction center action for purpose of making clear transition from citizen to war criminal,” and “sponsor turn in of war crimes testimony to UN” after the Winter Soldier event.
September 17, 1970 — The VVAW protests the National Guard’s national convention, handing out flyers that read:
The National Guard Uses Your Tax Dollar:To support the military-industrial complexTo honor war criminals – Westmoreland, Laird, Nixon, etc.To applaud campus murders by National Guard unitsTo encourage armed attacks on minority communities
October, 1970 — Jane Fonda, Al Hubbard and Jan Crumb raise money for the VVAW and create new chapters through a nationwide lecture tour covering more than 50 college campuses. Fonda and Mark Lane also plug the VVAW during appearances on the Dick Cavett Show.
November 22, 1970 — Jane Fonda is quoted in the Detroit Free Press as telling a Michigan State University audience, “I would think that if you understood what communism was, you would hope, you would pray on your knees that we would someday become communist,” and “The peace proposal of the Viet Cong is the only honorable, just, possible way to achieve peace in Vietnam.”
November, 1970 — After a falling-out between Mark Lane and the CCI leadership, the CCI splits from the VVAW and drops out of the Winter Soldier event. The CCI turns to planning a National Veterans Inquiry in Washington, D.C. in early December. Fonda and Lane continue working with the VVAW on Winter Soldier.
December 27, 1970 — In Mark Lane: Smearing America’s Soldiers in Vietnam, reporter and Vietnam veteran Neil Sheehan savages Mark Lane’s Conversations With Americans in the New York Times Book Review as “irresponsible” and details several fabricated claims of American atrocities. Publisher Simon & Schuster quickly cancels future printings of Lane’s book.
December 29, 1970 — Playboy subscribers start receiving the February 1971 issue of the magazine, which contains a full page ad provided for free to the VVAW by publisher Hugh Hefner. The ad brings in thousands of new members during the next several weeks.
January, 1971 — Jane Fonda raises funds for the Winter Soldier Investigation through a series of benefit concerts. Participants include Fonda, Dick Gregory, Donald Sutherland, Graham Nash, David Crosby and Phil Ochs. Fonda is named Honorary National Coordinator of the event.
Late January, 1971 — Newly elected Congressman Ronald Dellums permits the CCI to set up a display of “war crime materials” in his Washington office.
Late January, 1971 — Canadian authorities deny visas to the Vietnamese refugees who had been scheduled to describe American atrocities in Windsor, limiting the Winter Soldier Investigation to the single event in Detroit.
January 31 – February 2, 1971 — The Winter Soldier Investigation (see invitation). Members of the VVAW meet in a Detroit hotel to document war crimes that they claimed to have participated in or witnessed in Vietnam. During the next three days, more than 100 Vietnam veterans and 16 civilians give anguished, emotional testimony describing hundreds of atrocities against innocent civilians in South Vietnam, including rape, arson, torture, murder, and the shelling or napalming of entire villages. The witnesses state that these acts are being committed casually and routinely, under orders, as a matter of policy.
February 2, 1971 — The VVAW issues a press release threatening civil unrest and violence if American forces attempt to interdict the Ho Chi Minh Trail in Laos. Here are some excerpts:
“We, as veterans of the war in Vietnam, give notice that if Laos is attacked, we will respond at once. We call for mass civil disobedience to take place all over this country. We call for industry to shut down. We call upon the students to close the schools. We call upon our brothers who are still in uniform to close the military bases throughout America and the world. We call on the anti-war movement to shut down the major cities of America…. If this be a threat, let us make the most of it… We have been trained to fight. If need be we will use the knowledge we have gained against those who are seeking to extend this war.” — VVAW FBI Files: Section 02, page 66.
Early February, 1971 — VVAW leaders meet with Vietcong representatives in Windsor, Canada after the Winter Soldier Investigation.
February 16, 1971 — Jane Fonda and Donald Sutherland form “FTA” (F*** The Army), an anti-war, anti-American road show that tours near Army bases in order to undermine troop morale. Skits and songs portray American defeats, soldiers refusing to fight, and the murder of officers by their troops. FTA cast members mingle with soldiers after the shows, encouraging them to desert or to sabotage the Army.
February 19, 1971 — VVAW leaders meet in New York to plan the organization’s next action. John Kerry proposes to “march on Washington and take this whole thing to Congress.” The protest is designated “Dewey Canyon III,” after two military operations into Laos intended to interdict the Ho Chi Minh Trail.
March 14 – 18, 1971 — Jane Fonda, Mark Lane, and VVAW representative Michael Hunter fly to Europe for a five-day tour. In Paris, Fonda meets privately with Madame Binh of the PRG, then the three activists fly to London, where Fonda alleges American atrocities that include “applying electrodes to prisoners’ genitals, mass rapes, slicing off of body parts, scalping, skinning alive, and leaving ‘heat tablets’ around which burned the insides of children who ate them.’”
March 16, 1971 — The VVAW holds a news conference in the office of Congressman Michael Harrington (D-Mass.) on the third anniversary of the My Lai massacre to announce the forthcoming protest in Washington, DC. Retired Marine commandant General David Shoup and John Kerry demand an immediate end to the war. Kerry, wearing his medals, describes American soldiers as being “given the chance to die for the biggest nothing in history.”
Early April, 1971 — The VVAW is flat broke the week before the Dewey Canyon III event, with no way to transport protestors. In his book “Home to War,” Gerald Nicosia will report that “Kerry immediately got on the phone to some of the biggest Democratic Party fund-raisers in New York and set up a meeting. When it broke up, VVAW was $75,000 in the black, and busfare for at least a few hundred out-of-towners was assured.” Writing in “Winter Soldiers,” Richard Stacewicz will cite an FBI memorandum dated April 13, 1971 as follows, “VVAW had received fifty thousand dollars from United States Senators McGovern and Hatfield, who… obtained the money from an unknown New York source.”
April 18, 1971 — John Kerry and Al Hubbard appear on NBC’s “Meet the Press” to allege widespread atrocities by U.S. soldiers in Vietnam. Hubbard is introduced as a former Air Force captain who had spent two years in Vietnam and was wounded in action. Kerry seems to admit to committing war crimes, saying, “There are all kinds of atrocities, and I would have to say that, yes, yes, I committed the same kind of atrocities as thousands of other soldiers have committed in that I took part in shootings in free fire zones. I conducted harassment and interdiction fire. I used 50 calibre machine guns, which we were granted and ordered to use, which were our only weapon against people. I took part in search and destroy missions, in the burning of villages.”
April 18 – 23, 1971 — Operation Dewey Canyon III. More than a thousand VVAW members stage an “invasion” of Washington D.C., where they hold memorial ceremonies, meet with sympathetic members of Congress, camp on the Mall, perform “guerilla theater” — re-enactments of atrocities against civilians, complete with fake blood — on the Capitol steps and in front of the Justice Department, and hold a candlelight march around the White House carrying an upside-down American flag. At the end of the six-day event, a number of the veterans throw military medals and ribbons over a fence in front of the Capitol in a gesture of contempt. Many shout obscenities or threats against the government. The protests receive enthusiastic coverage in the communist Daily World newspaper on April 20th (Part 1, Part 2), 21st (Part 1, Part 2), 23rd (Part 1, Part 2), and 24th (Part 1, Part 2). Later in 1971, Kerry and the VVAW will publish The New Soldier, a book of essays and photographs documenting the event.
April 22, 1971 — John Kerry testifies on behalf of the VVAW before the Senate Committee on Foreign Affairs. He claims that American soldiers had “personally raped, cut off ears, cut off heads, taped wires from portable telephones to human genitals and turned up the power, cut off limbs, blown up bodies, randomly shot at civilians, razed villages in fashion reminiscent of Genghis Khan…” and that these acts were “not isolated incidents but crimes committed on a day-to-day basis with the full awareness of officers at all levels of command.” Kerry also accuses the U.S. military of “rampant” racism and of being “more guilty than any other body” of violating the Geneva Conventions, supports “Madame Binh’s points” when asked to recommend a peace proposal, and states that any reprisals against the South Vietnamese after an American withdrawal would be “far, far less than the 200,000 a year who are murdered by the United States of America.”
April 22, 1971 — The NBC Nightly News reveals that Al Hubbard had not been an Air Force Captain, as he claimed, but a staff sergeant E-5. A later investigation of Hubbard’s military records shows that he was never assigned to Vietnam.
April 24, 1971 — Hundreds of thousands of protestors march in Washington, D.C., led by members of the VVAW. Kerry addresses the crowd, accepting applause on behalf of “the 1,200 active-duty GIs who took part in the [Dewey Canyon III] demonstration.” The Daily World is on the job, with glowing coverage of the day’s events (Part 1, Part 2, Part 3, Part 4).
April 25 – 28, 1971 — Congressman Dellums sponsors ad hoc war crimes hearings organized by the CCI and attended at least in part by twenty members of Congress.
May 3, 1971 — VVAW members throw bags of cow manure on the steps of the Mall Entrance to the Pentagon, then offer to clean up the mess in return for an audience with an assistant Secretary of Defense. This offer is rejected, and 28 people are arrested and charged with disorderly conduct.
May 25, 1971 — Kerry appears on 60 Minutes with Morley Safer. Asked whether he wants to be President of the United States, Kerry replies in the negative, and calls it a “crazy question.”
May 30-31, 1971 — Several hundred VVAW members march from Concord to Boston, reversing the path of Paul Revere’s 1775 midnight ride. After defying a ban on overnight use of Battle Green in Lexington, site of the first battle of the American Revolution, 458 people are arrested and held overnight, including John Kerry. The following day the group marches from Bunker Hill to Boston Common.
June 20, 1971 — Kerry appears on The Dick Cavett Show to debate Navy veteran John O’Neill, who is representing the group Vietnam Veterans for a Just Peace.
July 17, 1971 — Following a month-long speaking tour of the Soviet Union and other countries, six VVAW and CCI members meet with PRG representatives in Paris to show support for the communist peace plan.
July 20, 1971 — Leaders of the VVAW hold a staff meeting. They agree to use the designations favored by North Vietnam (Democratic Republic of Vietnam) and the Vietcong (Provisional Revolutionary Government) for future press releases, decide to remove all American flags from VVAW offices, and discuss how best to handle Al Hubbard’s planned trip to Hanoi.
July 24, 1971 — The Daily World features a photograph of John Kerry speaking in support of the Provisional Revolutionary Government (Vietcong) Seven Point Plan.
August, 1971 — The FBI opens a full investigation of the VVAW to “determine the extent of control over VVAW by subversive groups and/or violence-prone elements in the antiwar movement,” noting that “sources had provided information that VVAW was stockpiling weapons, VVAW had been in contact with North Vietnam officials in Paris, France, VVAW was receiving funds from former CPUSA members and VVAW was aiding and financing U.S. military deserters. Additionally, information had been received that some individual chapters throughout the country had been infiltrated by the youth groups of the CPUSA and the SWP [Socialist Workers Party].” Source: FBI Memorandum to Senate Select Committee, 12/2/75, pp. 2-3; Hearings, Vol. 6, Exhibit 72.
August, 1971 — VVAW Executive Committee member Joe Urgo travels with other antiwar leaders to North Vietnam, where he meets with Prime Minister Pham Van Dong and others. According to FBI records, (see PDF file) Urgo makes the following proposals to the communist leaders: 1) that the VVAW make tapes to be broadcast over Radio Hanoi to get U.S. troops to stop fighting, and 2) to send a VVAW delegation to Hanoi in the near future.
August, 1971 — Kerry travels to Paris to meet with the North Vietnamese delegation to the Paris Peace Talks. Source: FBI HQ 100-448092 Section 5, 216-231 (esp. 230).
Late August, 1971 — Kerry and Hubbard meet with leftist millionaires in East Hampton to promote the VVAW and show film clips of atrocity claims from the Winter Soldier Investigation. According to the New York Times, a request for funds had the attendees “scrambling for pens and checkbooks.”
Early November, 1971 — According to FBI records, (see PDF file) Al Hubbard meets with the North Vietnamese and Vietcong delegations in Paris. Hubbard’s trip comes in response to an invitation to “VVAW, Communist Party (CP) USA, and left wing group in Paris, name unrecalled,” and is financed by the Communist Party USA.
November 7, 1971 — John Kerry tells the Sunday Oklahoman that the political power structure within the United States can and must change if the nation is to avoid violent efforts to seize power, saying, “If it (the government) doesn’t change we are asking for trouble. If it is not done, those who are talking about seizing it will have every right to go after it.” [see page 251 of Section 10 of the VVAW FBI files]
November 12 – 15, 1971 — the VVAW leadership meets in Kansas City. Fearing surveillance by authorities, the group relocates the meeting to another building. They debate, then vote down a plan to assassinate several pro-war U.S. Senators. Despite John Kerry’s claim to have left the VVAW before this event, several witnesses, meeting minutes and FBI records eventually place Kerry at the Kansas City meeting.
November 15, 1971 — After trying unsuccessfully to have Al Hubbard removed from the group’s leadership, John Kerry resigns from the Executive Committee of the VVAW for personal reasons. Kerry will continue to represent the organization in interviews and public appearances for several months.
December 26, 1971 — Fifteen VVAW protesters take over the Statue of Liberty for some 40 hours and drape an upside-down American flag across the statue’s face. Per the New York Post, the VVAW later receives a “congratulatory message” from Vietcong negotiator Le Mai in Paris.
December 27, 1971 — Twenty-five VVAW protesters take over the Betsy Ross House in Philadelphia.
December 28, 1971 — 150 VVAW protesters splash bags of blood in front of the White House, then take over the Lincoln Memorial. 87 are arrested. John Kerry tells the New York Times that he is helping raise bail money for some of the demonstrators.
January 11, 1972 — John Kerry represents the VVAW at Dartmouth College.
January 25, 1972 — John Kerry represents the VVAW at the “People’s State of the Union” in Washington, D.C.
February, 1972 — A VVAW delegation attends a World Assembly for Peace and Independence of the People of Indo-China in Versailles, France.
March, 1972 — VVAW Executive Secretary Al Hubbard visits Hanoi and meets with North Vietnamese Vice-Premier Nguyen Duy Trinh.
April 22, 1972 — John Kerry represents the VVAW at the “Emergency March for Peace” in Bryant Park in New York City.
June 25 – 28, 1972 — The VVAW sent a delegation of 15 people to Paris “to establish closer contact with the people of Indo-China.” Their international travel and stay in Paris was paid for by the French Communist Party. [FBI HQ 100-448092 Section 34, page 36]
July 1, 1972 — Kerry is transferred to the Standby Reserve (inactive).
July 5, 1972 — In Cuba, Radio Havana reports that a group of visiting VVAW members and leaders has donated blood to be given to the North Vietnamese.
July 8 – 22, 1972 — Jane Fonda visits Hanoi, where she makes numerous radio broadcasts to American and South Vietnamese military personnel encouraging mutiny and desertion, while repeatedly claiming that the United States is committing war crimes in Vietnam. Fonda also visits American prisoners, reporting on the air that they are being “well cared for” and that they wished to convey their “sense of disgust of the war and their shame for what they have been asked to do.” Upon leaving North Vietnam, Fonda accepts from her hosts a ring made from the wreckage of a downed American plane.
July 29 – August 12, 1972 — Former U.S. Attorney General Ramsey Clark travels to Hanoi on behalf of the communist Stockholm International Commission for Inquiry. Clark denounces the U.S. bombing of North Vietnam and visits American POWs, reporting that they are in good health and their conditions “could not be better.”
August 1972 — The VVAW’s Operation Lost Patrol, publicized as “a massive caravan of 25,000 cars and 100,000 persons traveling to Miami to protest the Republican Convention” only attracts 300 members.
September 18, 1972 — John Kerry’s brother Cameron and Vietnam veteran Thomas Vallely are arrested in Lowell, Massachusetts in the basement of a building that houses both Kerry’s campaign headquarters and those of opposing candidate Tony DiFruscia. Cameron Kerry and Vallely are charged with breaking and entering with intent to commit larceny. Kerry will win the Democratic nomination for a Massachusetts congressional seat the next day, but lose in the general election to Republican Paul Cronin. Thomas Vallely will later become director of the Vietnam Program at the John F. Kennedy School of Government, Harvard University.
Late 1972 — The U.S Congress votes to eliminate funding for military operations in Indochina.
January, 1973 — The Nixon Administration signs the Treaty of Paris.
February and March, 1973 — American prisoners of war are released by North Vietnam. They report having been starved, beaten and tortured by their captors, in an effort to make them sign documents in which they admitted to committing war crimes.
April, 1973 — Jane Fonda calls the freed American prisoners “hypocrites and pawns,” insisting that, “Tortured men do not march smartly off planes, salute the flag, and kiss their wives. They are liars. I also want to say that these men are not heroes.”
April 19 – 22, 1973 — Now dominated by the Maoist Revolutionary Union (RU), the VVAW is renamed Vietnam Veterans Against the War / Winter Soldier Organization (VVAW/WSO) to focus on fighting “American imperialism.”
Fall, 1974 — North Vietnam initiates minor probing attacks into South Vietnam, in violation of the Paris treaty. There is no military response by the United States.
Early 1975 — North Vietnam launches a massive invasion of South Vietnam.
April 30, 1975 — Saigon falls.
1975 – 1979 — Communist regimes in southeast Asia murder an estimated two million Cambodians, as well as tens of thousands of South Vietnamese. One million South Vietnamese are imprisoned in “re-education camps,” and hundreds of thousands die there. An additional two million flee the country, with many drowning in the attempt.
1978 — The original VVAW splits when a minority breaks away to form Vietnam Veterans Against the War Anti-Imperialist (VVAW-AI), with the larger faction retaining the original name. Both the VVAW and the rabidly anti-American VVAWAI remain in operation today.
1978 — Former VVAW leader Robert Muller founds the Vietnam Veterans of America (VVA). The VVA also describes John Kerry as a “co-founder” of the organization. In the late 1980s, Muller and the Vietnam Veterans of America Foundation (VVAF) will split from the VVA.
1981 — Muller leads a VVAF delegation to Hanoi, where he praises the communist leadership of Vietnam and lays a wreath on the grave of Ho Chi Minh.
Chas
YOU LOST!
Kerry had his discharge upgraded.
You are using twisted and circular arguments. You cant use his upgraded discharge to prove that his discharge was not upgraded.
The upgraded DD-214, itself, is full of weird stuff that raises more questions.
And NO you are wrong. The DD-214 lists a “combat V” on Kerry’s Silver Star. This is a huge mistake. The mistake, itself, leads to other questions.
The date on the discharge is also weird, in that Kerry left Vietnam LONG before the 1972 Discharge Date on that, particular, document.
What did Kerry do, between the time he left Vietnam, and 1972? Does ANYONE have a clue?
Also, this is NOT the only “Discharge Date” Kerry has floated.
Please READ all of this link:
http://beldar.blogs.com/beldarblog/2004/10/was_kerrys_orig.html
As you read through this beldar.blog link, pay special attention to all the links that it provides. Many of those “links”are to the Kerry website, but the “documents” once found on John Kerry’s own webpage have, since, been removed.
Why is that?
“A Kerry campaign spokesman, David Wade, was asked whether Mr. Kerry had ever been a victim of an attempt to deny him an honorable discharge. There has been no response to that inquiry.”
http://www.nysun.com/article/3107
Slimy, is all you can say about Murtha, after reading this.
The Rest of Murtha’s FBI TapeBy David Holman
Published 7/12/2006 12:09:33 AMhttp://www.spectator.org/dsp_article.asp?art_id=10077
He’s the guy who, when offered a bribe, still wanted to do a deal. “I’m delighted to do business with him and do every goddamn thing I can within bounds, you know, so I don’t get myself in jail, in order to get him into the country and whatever needs to be done,” he says on the video, unearthed by the conservative American Spectator. (You can watch at http://www.spectator.org/ ) He’s the guy who — as a member of the House ethics committee– did nothing to stop the scheme.http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/11/14/AR2006111401230.html
Why did Navy Secretary Clayton, who was the Navy Secretary under Jimmy Carter, have anything at all to do with John Kerry’s discharge?
http://beldar.blogs.com/beldarblog/2004/10/was_kerrys_orig.html
The only possible answer:
Kerry used Carters Amnesty program to upgrade his discharge!
View the Murtha FBI Video Here:
Special ReportMurtha and the FBI: The Director’s CutBy David Holman
Published 9/29/2006 12:10:14 AM
http://www.spectator.org/dsp_article.asp?art_id=10427
Or, Read the Transcript from the Murtha/FBI Video Here:
Special ReportThe Full Transcript From January 7, 1980
Published 9/29/2006 12:06:09 AMhttp://www.spectator.org/dsp_article.asp?art_id=10426
Lets just hope that the Iraqi government and the ARI do something. there is no reason they cannot take this thing over since we have decimated the dead-enders who were already in their last throes before the surge.
ChasThe reason that Iraq War veterans can USUALLY speak their minds against the war, if they wish, is:
After FULL discharge, they have the rights of any other US Citizen.
John Kerry met with the Enemy while still an officer of the US Navy and he did so without permission.
For this, he was most likely court-martialed or dishonorably discharged.
Kerry will not release his records, because Kerry does not want us to know the truth.
Chas., J R, et al.,
September 11th, 2007 was the six year anniversary of the attack on the Trade Center, Pentagon and attempted attack on the White House.
Six years without another attack on our shores I might add.
This is significant because every military man currently in Iraq had to either enlist or reenlist knowing full well that he might have to be in Iraq. Everyone there knew who the CIC was when he either enlisted or reenlisted.
My boy got out of the Marines in August of 2001. He joined the reserves in case they needed him after 9/11 even though he was enrolled in college. Last year they needed him and he was activated for a year active duty with a tour in Iraq.
When he returned home he reenlisted in the reserves in case they will need him again. He did this with full knowledge of the mission and conditions in Iraq. He did this with full knowledge that he will be activated for active duty again for a year.
My boy is not unusual. The vast majority of the men in Iraq want to be there. They are volunteers, they don’t have to serve.
And yes, I would recommend military service for any young man that could meet the requirements. Rather you want to make a career in the military or just do a two or four year enlistment it is a great way to get valuable live experience and serve your country at the same time.
So, Kerry leaves active duty for inactive… Then joines the Reserve… His own DD 214, posted by Econ, shows his HONORABLE Discharge in 1972!!
Econ, you are arguing with your own link!! LOL unbelievble!!
Hank, surprising as it may seem, I have long recommended Air Force to many young men, who didnt seem to know what they wanted to do after High School… I stopped doing so after Bush was elected… I didnt have ANY trust in him as CIC…. I did not then, nor do I now, believe he has the sense to be CIC…
But for many years before that, I recommended the Air Force to numerous guys coming out of High School…. Many years… From aound 1976 until 2000…
I didnt have ANY trust in him as CIC…. I did not then, nor do I now, believe he has the sense to be CIC…
Posted by: Chas. | December 02, 2007 at 04:46 PM
Well fortunately 3 million men and women, active and reserve disagree with you. Bush was president the last time they either enlisted or reenlisted.
I would still recommend the Navy!
Chas
Please provide a time line of John Kerry’s military service, from his original Commission to his final Discharge from Reserve Duty.
It is not possible, Chas.
Not with the information we have.
Nobody can figure it all out.
However, even if you use the DD-214 that Kerry listed on his website, that does not explain what Kerry did, from the time he got home to the time of that 1972 Discharge date.
Morever, why did he have any paperwork done by the Carter Administration, several years later?
If you are joining the military based on what you think about the CIC then you might as well not join at all.
During your entire time in the military you are going to serve under many different commanders at several layers.
If you are going to sit around and wonder about the CIC you don’t even have a clue about the other 30 people you are going to have to serve under either.
I served under Bill Clinton and I didn’t like the man at all.
So what?
I swear, some people have no idea at all about the military life and yet they think they are experts.
The 1972 DD-214 was from ACTIVE duty service. It is still a mystery what Kerry did, in the form of military service, from the time he came back from Vietnam, to the 1972 date on that, particular, DD-214.
That discharge was not final, but to reserve duty, it appears. Where did he report? Is there ANY record of Kerry’s Reserve attendance?
Then, Under President Jimmy Carter, we find that Kerry is Discharged, again?
How can you make sense of all of this?
http://beldar.blogs.com/beldarblog/2004/10/was_kerrys_orig.html
Put together your own time line.
Account for John Kerrys time, in the Navy, from the time he came home from Vietnam to the time that Navy Secretary Clayton, under Jimmy Carter, “discharged” Kerry, again, would you please?
SorryNavy Secretary Claytor served under Jimmy Carter.
Military service seems to have become institutionalized into some families.
I suppose that’s fine.
It DOES rather remove some discretion as to our nations use of troops. The burden shared by only a few I mean.
But since that few seem fine with it, hey more power to them.
The military is going to have to count on this though. Military service is lately being seen as an unwise choice.
Too, lack of discretion as to war is hard on the nations funds when we have so many more worthy things to do.
JR,
For many families it is a proud tradition of serving one’s country.
Calling it “institutionalized into some families” is a rather cold way to put it.
Wow, a lot of posts since I posted last – too many to read. :D
For the record, I respect Mohamed Ali. Ali did not support the Vietnam War. Ali took the hit for it.I think he was wrong, but I respect him.He had the courage of his convictions.
John Kerry was “for the war” so much that he took his movie camera with him. He saw combat duty as a possible advantage to his planned, political career.
Then, Kerry got home and worked against the war, while still a Naval Officer. This was not legal.
Kerry also slandered and libeled others who served.
Kerry got a less than Honorable Discharge, and then worked to have that history “cleaned up” under the Jimmy Carter Amnesty Program.
Then, John Kerry runs for President as a “War Hero”??
John Kerry is, absolutely, one of the strangest people to ever run for President.
Even if you dont agree with me, on that point, you have to admit that his campaign strategy was weird.
If he had courageously admitted that he changed his mind about Vietnam, more than once, and that he was having the same problems with Iraq — who knows what would have happened?
Instead, we couldnt figure out if Kerry was a “flower child” or a “war monger” — it kinda depeneded on who he was talking to.
Even John Murtha, dishonest as he is, could not deny the reality of the continuing success of the surge strategy. The success will continue. Iraq is destined to rise from the ashes to become a world economic power.
But beware Patriots, of the Russian-Iranian alliance. Neither can be trusted. Together, they are as formidable a source of danger to the Middle East and our nation as we have ever known.
“Well fortunately 3 million men and women, active and reserve disagree with you. Bush was president the last time they either enlisted or reenlisted.
Money Talks.
Nathan if you go looking for insult you will likely find it.
“Military service seems to have become institutionalized into some families.”
There is no insult here. Certainly not against these families. It’s just a fairly factual observation. This is largely to be expected with an all volunteer force the last three decades. I’m sorry if you find it “cold”.
There IS something of an inherent danger in it though. With a ready supply of volunteers, leaders need not be judicious in their use of troops.
As we have of course seen these last 6 years.
What is really sad is that bush seems to be working to get Americans to the place of simply accepting a certain level of loss.
Five purple hearts between Murtha and Kerry. No missed days from duty. No hospital time. No medical records available describing their injuries.
So tell me Google monkeys what were Murtha’s injuries? He has given a description of at least 7 different injuries leading to his two purple hearts. But he’s never signed a Form 180.
Unlike Kerry who gave his buddies at the Boston Globe exclusive access to his records. The same ones that wrote the bogus biography that had to be corrected almost each time it was issued.
Support the troops!
Unless they disagree with you politically AND you are a Republican.
Then? Screw ‘em.
I hope the troops see this. They vote majority Republican. They need to KNOW that should they ever DARE have a change of heart? Well watch your back for daggers!
Actually J R, I can count on one hand when politics were talk about when i was in the military.
Most of discussions about politics came out during election time or when we didn’t get a very good pay raise. :)
There were plenty of Generals to blame for our dilemmas :D
Well J R,
Several misconceptions and false premises in your little post. I realize that when you don’t have the facts on your side it’s easy to just post ignorant diatribe but let me help you a little.
“Support the troops!”
Yes. Republicans support the troops no matter what their political leanings are. But if they lie about their service and then build a political career on those lies they are fair game.
“Unless they disagree with you politically AND you are a Republican.”
Well you pretty much described your position on the swift Boat Veterans for Truth. Over 160 highly decorated Viet Nam Veterans and you and your ilk call them liars because they dare to exercise their constitutional right to enter the political process.
You’ve also pretty much described the contempt that Murtha and Kerry have for the armed forces, except they pretty much defame service men in general. The political affiliation of the troops doesn’t matter to them.
“Then? Screw ‘em.”
Just like Al gore did in Florida when he had two attorneys in every Florida county challenging every absentee ballot from servicemen overseas. The democrats know they can’t win with the military vote so they throw them away every chance they get.
“I hope the troops see this. They vote majority Republican. They need to KNOW that should they ever DARE have a change of heart? Well watch your back for daggers!”
Today’s modern fighting man is very intelligent. It has been shown that the 18 year old entering the military today is smarter than his average counterpart in the civilian world.
They are smart, dedicated, involved. Exactly the type of voter the democrats fear! Imagine, a voter smart enough to use a butterfly ballot!
Will the success of the surge bring back our 4,000 men or our trillion dollars?
Will the success of the surge bring back our 4,000 men or our trillion dollars?
Posted by: Door King | December 02, 2007 at 07:32 PM
Which concerns you the most Door King?
You appear confused between choosing.
Door King
Every life is important. Every sacrifice should be honored.
However, we lost far more people in several, single battles in our nations history.
These 4000 deaths would have been multiplied several times over if not for the great professionalism of our forces, and the great tecnnological advantages we, as a country, provide to our military.
Well Door King,
So you admit the surge is a success?
The answer to your question is that success in Iraq will probably save lives and money in the long run.
JR,
Where in my post did I say the word insult or imply it was insulting what you said?
I said it was a rather cold way of looking at something.
Yet you go of on some tangent about an insult.
Try to stop and comprehend what is written before responding.
I see the reichwing, bush apologists are out in force tonight.
They will support anything their fuhrer suggests.
Here is some history for you, on how many people have sacrificed for all of us:
http://users.erols.com/mwhite28/battles.htm
Look at Saipan, Tarawa, Normandy, there are several single battles, where we lost more in one day, than what we have lost in Iraq.
Apophis,
Have you ever written anything more than one or two sentences long without attacking someone?
By their actions, the swift boat political action committee smeared not just Kerry but those who stood with Kerry as well. They are not so much proud warriors as they are political operatives. Their leader, rather small and beknighted man that he is, had held a grudge on Kerry for 30 years. The man is a regular on the Sean Hannity show.
IF their mission is truth? Why did they not give equal attention to the record (or rather the lack of one) of one george bush?
500,000 men died in Vietnam. Had folks like those who attack Kerry prevailed? Would it have been 5 million? More?
Politics is a dirty game. Republicans played VERY dirty in the 2000 election in Florida. Many THOUSANDS of citizens were disenfranchised. The governor of the state and brother of george bush actively worked to remove Democrat voters from the roles.
A few hundred military votes that came in after the deadline hardly compares. But when you are fighting the devil, you use what you can. The votes were no more valid than any other simply by virtue of their being military.
People who lie about their service? There’s one right here. You know him as “kansas” JM, Eier, etc.
Ask him about the damage he suffered as “Iraqi missile parts flew past his canopy.”
I asked a question at the beginning of this thread.
How long? How long do we stay in Iraq?
The public has a right to an honest answer to that from the supporters of bush. Seeing as how bush himself has left it the problem of everyone but himself.
ApophisWe are fighting a former allie of the 3rd Reich.
The historical fact is very easy to prove: Radical Islam supported Hitler and the Nazis.
Radical Islam, today, sounds pretty much like Hitler did, in his time.
Rather strange for you side with Hitler’s allies, and to call those of us who oppose the modern day Islamo-fascists names, is it not?
Hitler would agree with you.
Hitler would oppose me.
Nathan
How was my post “cold” Nathan?
YOU didn’t like the words I used?Say that. Don’t try to speak for me by placing sentiment where none was expressed.
Ok it’s movie time.
Though the fiction that econ just concocted MIGHT be more interesting.
Hitler and radical Islam?
HOO BOY econpaulie you ARE round the bend!
Kerry slandered every member of the armed forces.He lied and he knew he was lying.Kerry even brought forward fake “veterans” to give false
“testimony” about “war crimes” that never happened.
Kerry lied.
Kerry lied repeatedly, and has been proven a liar.
Then, a group of Veterans gets upset with Kerry’s lies, and goes after Kerry with facts, and you lefties go nuts about it.
Tough.
Nothing that the Swift Boat Veterans for Truth said has been proven false.
Kerry NEVER released all of his records.
Bush DID release all of his records.
Bush was honorably discharged.
Kerry was, at first, dishonorably discharged and, later, had his discharge upgraded by the Jimmy Carter Amnesty program.
Oh J R, glad you like to give me so much attention. As I written about three times before it wasn’t a fighter jet and it wasn’t Iraqis. That was all Lib made up stuff from stealing my nic or whatever.
It was a modified 727 used for electronic surveillance and was quite a heavy bird.
But,it’s all you can do J R is attack other posters and misquote them.
I think your figures on Vietnam casualties are wrong as well.
But I won’t correct you J R as you appear to like to incorrectly make claims and quotes. :)
Go attack another poster J R, you bore me with your incessant attacks.
Attacks must substitute for your lack of intelligence no doubt.
A little for econpaul to work with….
Certainly the Catholic church cannot be given carte blanche re: Hitler.
Radical Islam? It didn’t even EXIST then! Not in any organized way or nation state.
YOU econ are nuts.
Nathan………you reichwingers deserve nothing better than “an attack”. It is you and your kind who are the true enemies of our great country.
Paulie………….. I thought the reason bush invaded Iraq was because he claimed Saddam had WMD’s? All the sudden this is a war against all of Islam?
You people are just plain NUTS!
Caught ya in your own lie “kansas”
My post didn’t mention fighter jets.
But YOU have.
I’ll use you all for comic relief after the movie…
Did you ever serve in the military Apophis?
History supports everything I have said.
Islamic Terrorism was actually the BASIS of many of Hitlers plans.
Hitler modeled his behavior on that of the Ottoman Turks:
http://theroadtoemmaus.org/RdLb/33Rlg/Islm/Islm&Hitlr.htm
Jung on Hitler and Islam:
http://www.americanthinker.com/blog/2007/02/jung_on_hitler_and_islam.html
Hitler copied Islam, now Islam copies Hitler:
http://www.islam-watch.org/Others/Hitler_Legacy_Islamic_Antisemitism.htm
You mentioned fighter jets in a previous thread J R, but a nice try about your lie.
J R is a known liar.
JR,
For heavens sake man, go look up the word “cold” on http://www.dictionary.com.
Figure out the context of how I was using it.
Then perhaps I can have something resembling an intelligent conversation with you about my comment.
Did you ever serve in the military Apophis?
Posted by: Kansas | December 02, 2007 at 08:10 PM
What is the relevance of this post?
Apophis,
What is the relecance of ANY of your posts?
relecance = relevance…
silly typos
Dissenting opinions really get you reichwingers dripping with anger and contempt!
I love it.
No one angry here, but the Libs. My pulse still at 64 currently. :)
trollboy……you are constantly angry……………and a LIAR
Oh okay Apophis. I’ll try to restrain myself (yawn).
The Pope fought Hitler as best he could: http://www.monsterwax.com/hitler.html
A Jewish Scholar recently thanked the Pope, and the Catholic Church, for resisting Hitler
http://www.ewtn.com/library/CHISTORY/zpi12rhb.htm
http://www.ewtn.com/library/issues/zpius12.htm
Hitler wanted to kidnap the Pope. he saw the Pope as an obstical to world domination and his new religion, National Socialism:”Avvenire said Hitler feared the pope would be an obstacle to his plans for global domination and because the dictator wanted to abolish Christianity eventually and impose national socialism as a global religion.”
http://www.boston.com/news/world/europe/articles/2005/01/16/hitler_plot_to_kidnap_pope_pius_xii_detailed/
Well this is better than commercials!
If Hitler wanted to “kidnap the Pope” there was certainly nothing to stop him.
Geez what kind of crap are you reading?
Back next commercial for more insanity from batty econ.
Take your pick from these sources:
http://www.ewtn.com/library/CHISTORY/PIUS12.HTM
Even those Nazis put to death, after the Neuremberg trials, stated that the Pope was an enemy of the Nazis.
Eichman admits as much, in his diaries, prior to being put to death in Israel:
http://www.ewtn.com/library/CHISTORY/zpi12eic.htm
Yes, Hitler gave an order to kidnap the Pope. The order was made as Nazi forces were retreating from Italy.The order was not carried out.
“Hitler plot to kidnap Pope Pius XII detailedBy Philip Pullella, Reuters | January 16, 2005
VATICAN CITY — Nazi dictator Adolf Hitler gave one of his generals a direct order to kidnap Pope Pius XII during World War II, but the officer did not obey, Italy’s leading Roman Catholic newspaper reported yesterday.”—–You will notice that this is from REUTERS news service!
http://www.boston.com/news/world/europe/articles/2005/01/16/hitler_plot_to_kidnap_pope_pius_xii_detailed/
Dissenting opinions really get you reichwingers dripping with anger and contempt!
I love it.
Posted by: Apophis | December 02, 2007 at 08:18 PM
Well, contempt maybe. You have an opinion?
What econ?
Ya say that Hitler was in league with aliens and AlQuaeda to kidnap the Pope?
Nut.
JR,
I don’t recall seeing anything about aliens or Al Queada in Econs post.
You still need to work on your reading comprehension.