The daunting challenge of passing health reform during the next legislative session is setting in, more than a month after the Kansas Health Policy Authority delivered its 21 proposals to the governor and Legislature. Covering the cost ($30 million in the first year), passing a cigarette-tax increase, and satisfying legislators’ concerns about the “premium assistance†program are among the hurdles, as is the authority’s preference for one big bill rather than separate measures.
“It’s hard to see the House passing a tax increase in an election year,†said state Rep. Jeff Colyer, R-Overland Park. “Tax, insurance, Medicaid, smoking ban — there’s enough there for multiple committees,†said Rep. Brenda Landwehr, R-Wichita. “There’s not one committee in the House that would have the time to do due diligence on a bill that big.â€
But lawmakers and the governor should continue to make reform a priority, even if politics requires the change to be incremental. The issue is too pressing for too many Kansans.
Posted by Rhonda Holman
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315 Comments
Pressing?
How?
We have MedicaidWe have MedicareWe have VAWe have COBRAWe have the state insurance pool
We also have people who want cell phones, satelite TV, big screen TVs, brand new computers, new cars, but: They do not want to buy their own health insurance!
Oh yah,We ALSO have the current:SCHIP
Wrong again Paul, people do want health insurance but they just done want to give up 25 to 50% of their income to get it just so they can be denied all their claims.
Health care is the one social concept that I believe should be a give-me, there should be no question as to the decision to see a Doctor. Does anyone know outside of personal experience how many of those programs that Econ mentioned are not available to the “working poor”? The tread in the last ten years has been to raise the employee premium, lower the coverage and raise the deductible. I use to work for a school distract years ago. And became a classified employee rep for benefits, when the subject of employee contribution to the insurance policy came up. We were in agreement among the rep it was unaffordable, the district’s answer was that they were comparable with other area employers. When I spoke up and asked what area employers? We were told Raytheon, now our contribution was just over six hundred dollars a month. While the average take home for a classified employee was around eight hundred dollars a month.
Some may have worked for Raytheon, did you make only eight hundred a month take home?
Having known several victims of the “socialized medicine” programs, I can tell you often the average pet is treated nicer then a patent on a state owned medical program. So I see a problem with socialized medicine, not one that can not be fix though. A focus on wellness instead of cost should be the cure, the driving force behind any plan. Currently it may not be the amount that is covered by some insurance policy that is the issue with going to the Doctor. It is the costs that are not covered that can be the deciding factor, if a co-pay is fifty dollars and you do not have the fifty dollars at the time. You just do not go to the Doctor and when you do the condition has gotten worse.
I am all for personal responsibility, but many out there don’t have a clue as to what it means, let alone are they able to practice it. It may be those people are not able to because of a mental problem, physical problem or upbringing. In other words, there are people out there who do need government help with their medical problems.
Many of these same people fall through the cracks, and can’t get the help they need. I have no problem with my tax dollars going to help them. I also have no problem with my tax dollars going to help children who have no insurance for any reason. In the first place, it is not their fault. And forcing the parents, or parent, may not be possible.
While the Bill Of Rights, or the Constitution, guarantee medical help, it would seem to me that a civilized society wouldn’t think twice about helping people, or children, with tax dollars. Better that than some Presidents private war, like Iraq. But then again, with this administration, we are anything but civilized.
While the Bill Of Rights, or the Constitution, guarantee medical help,
should read:While neither the Bill of Rights . . .
More coffee!
What really gripes me is, we can spend billions on a needless war, but God forbid we spend tax dollars on health insurance for Americans.
There is no compassion among conservatives.
Listen to Colyer. The Kansas Cowards (legislature) will not do anything but play it safe in an election year. This year the only thing that is important to the bums is getting re-elected.
“Tax, insurance, Medicaid, smoking ban — there’s enough there for multiple committees,” said Rep. Brenda Landwehr, R-Wichita. “There’s not one committee in the House that would have the time to do due diligence on a bill that big.”
Brenda, how dumb do you think we are? How big is the budget that the Appropriations Committee deals with? Are you wanting us to believe that you are incapable of dealing with large issues?
We expect the legislature to be able to deliver on the promise of dealing with difficult problems.
I know that what you would like to do is cut the Kansas Health Policy’s proposal up into a lot of little pieces so you can kill the bill with a thousand little cuts. That way you don’t have to be accountable for one vote on a package proposal.
http://www.vote-smart.org/voting_category.php?can_id=BS025106Brenda’s voting record on health issues. Her whole voting record is there. Quite the neo-con.
Date Bill Title Vote03/15/2007 Physician Liability Exemption
Y03/15/2007 Expand Children’s Health CareN05/03/2006 Abortion and Live
http://www.vote-smart.org/voting_category.php?can_id=BS025106
Birth ReportingY02/23/2006 Clinic RegulationN02/22/2006 Abortion Clinic Regulation Amendment
N02/07/2006 Health Insurance Abortion RestrictionsY
I worked for Raytheon writerdog.
What they told you does not wash with my admittedly dated experience. Things may have changed. I DO know the trend was toward larger co pays and increasingly denied coverage.
A company that does not care about its employees health, do they imagine the effect this has on the workers attitude about the company and its health?
The same might be said about a country that does not care about its citizens health.
Don’t buy the old lie that hospitals are obligated to care for anyone who comes to the emergency room. This means stabilizing care only.
We are the only civilized western country that does not provide health care to its citizens. We ALSO spend more on armaments than the next 20 some nations combined.
I guess our sick and suffering poor may rest a little easier knowing they are safe to do so?
Next time you’re in the ER waiting interminably for treatment, look around you. About half of the patients there are there for treatment they shoud have visited a family physician for. Unfortunately they don’t have insurance, what with a morgage interest increase and the ungodly cost of groceries and a 40% rise (again!) in the cost of staying somewhat warm, and $2.85 gas to get them to their slightly-more-than-minimum-wage-job. So, when they get sick or injured, they have to go to the ER and clog the system for you, who presumably has a real emergency.No health-care plan for poor people can work. Only until we are all covered by the same system, with the same benefits as our president and congress, will they become safe from the annual budget cuts. While we’re at it, why do we need the insurance companies administering the thing. Medicare does a good job and for a whole lot cheaper than private coverage. And if a drug or medical supply company wants it’s products to have a market, they’ll negotiate.
Jed you might need to look into how well Medicare is working. Many Drs are opting out of medicare because of the latest slashes in payment by the gov. Not taking a position on this but can see their point to a degree. They draw a very small percentage of the amount paid by private insurance when they treat medicare patients.
Goverment or universal healthcare will widen this problem and lead to good doctors opting out of the system and also IMO will lead to fewer good docs coming into the system.
When we as a country stop bankrolling the pharms we will stop getting some of the cures we enjoy today. When research stops rewarding our brightest from coming into the drug research programs we will be like many other countries – waiting for someone else to find the next cure for diseases.
There are up and down sides for every problem we face today. Maybe we should back up and look at this one before insisting on a fix.
J R just some food for thought: While looking at the link Doug put in about the Tiahrt donation to Huy I looked at the Goyle donations to see if there were like donations.
What I found was that he two biggest contributors were Lawyers first and medical providors second. Just a thought. Do you really believe that this man who is the product of a medical dynasty by family and race will really ever socialize medicine?
This could be part of the problem at a state level. Many politicians tell us they want it but where are they when push comes to shove?
I am not unaware that a problem left unsolved remains a useful political tool.
ksgrm, doctors largely support universal health care so they can provide medical treatment to people without insurance companies standing in the way rejecting claims and treatment.
I heard a good one last night from a Democrat here in Tejas. He said “their wingnuts want war and tax cuts. Our wingnuts want healthcare. Which wingnuts are ya gonna vote for?”
When providing unquestioned access to basic health care for every citizen isn’t at the top of the list of what’s important we’re headed in the wrong direction as a country.
Doug I’m not being adversarial here but don’t believe your position is accurate. I have had physician friends tell me that the fee scale in medicare and madicaid is putting some doctors in jeopardy. As more cuts come about this will only get worse. I think all should have access to healthcare. We probably just disagree on the methods to reach that goal.
I think that everyone who is able bodied should work and earn their healthcare. There will always be those who can’t for one reason or another do this. Certainly we as a nation should make sure they are taken care of. Also the children of absent, incapable, or irresponsible parents should be taken care of. This leaves a large portion of the uninsured as able to procure their own coverage but for one reason or another choose not to.
JMOHO
Linda I think that you and I agree on this one.
When providing unquestioned access to basic health care for every citizen isn’t at the top of the list of what’s important we’re headed in the wrong direction as a country.
Posted by: lindainks55 | December 16, 2007 at 11:42 AM
I think we just disagree on how to do this.
I think grm is talking about “designer docs” who dont take insurance OR medicare/medicaid. That is a big trend in Vegas and some other cities.
But those docs charge something like a $5000 annual flat fee, and then office visits and such are free afterward. Only hospital visits are extra. So their clients STILL need health insurance.
Those designer docs are providing health care for the rich and famous, not working folks.
Mostly republicans….
About 50% of the cost of healthcare goes to paperwork, middlemen, insurance company executives, etc. Only about 50% actually goes to health care. Doctors would be able to drastically reduce health care costs and provide more care if the for-profit insurance companies were cut out.
The doctors won’t be losing money, they’ll be making more since they will be able to have more customers and can cut the time wasted dealing with multiple insurance companies, wait times of phones waiting for approval, and redirecting covered patients to facilities where their insurance company will pay.
Why would doctors be against making more money and reducing the time focused on paperwork?
http://www.pnhp.org/facts/statement_of_dr_marcia_angell_introducing_the_us_national_health_insurance_act.php
If the doctors of Minnesota are any indication of nationwide trends then over 60% of doctors favor universal health care:
http://www.workdayminnesota.org/index.php?article_1_115
I’ve had the pleasure over the past several months of becoming friends with a Canadian citizen who lives and works here in the U.S. Among many topics of discussion has been health care. She has taught me a lot and her comparisons of what Canada offers and what she has here in America are telling. Beginning with our attitudes.
In Canada there is no shame in getting government provided health care, no socioeconomic differences are drawn. It doesn’t matter your income or educational level – EVERYONE deserves and receives health care. Our country’s solutions will come more easily when people’s attitudes can be more inclusive and less decisive.
I am concerned about our inability to try new ideas and allow them to be scrapped or changed or whatever it takes to get to the point of being where our monies should be spent. We seem stuck in our thinking. We allow failed programs to continue. We allow programs that need tweaking to deteriorate until they need rebuilding, we are so opinionated we can’t take parts of everyone’s best to make a consensus that’s good for most.
If we could get off our high horses long enough to communicate and accept we just might make a lot of progress.
The market (though not free) is impacting the number of people entering medical schools.
HMO’s (a precursor to National Socialist Medicine) now impact doctors in a couple of ways:
1. DECREASE DOCTORS PAY. HMO’s control a participating doctor’s pay, reducing the doctors pay considerably.
2. INCREASE DOCTORS EXPENSE. HMO’s require a diversion of a doctor’s time and expense to seeking pre-approval for any treatments and processing the red-tape claim forms of the HMO’s.
Did you know Doctors must now spend time on the phone with the HMO’s talking to some high school graduate $10/hour clerk, to argue with the HMO to approve treatment for the doctor’s patients?
Yet the HMO has ZERO malpractice liability if the proper treatment is not approved by the HMO.
The Doctor incurs all the risk, while being controlled by the HMO.
So let’s see, less pay for Doctors, higher medical school tuition, long working hours and much work involved – the current generation is not interested in less pay for more work.
At a time when boomers are aging and America ages into the bracket that requires the most medical care, doctors shortages are developing.
And National Healthcare will only make this problem worse, by driving down the salaries of doctors even further, and by controlling the doctors even more then the HMO’s are today.
Much of what you said Max is true. Your conclusions are suspect.
HillaryCare! will control doctor’s salaries. No question. The problem will get worse.
One approach we could take today though is this:
1. Allow HMO’s to be sued for Malpractice.
2. Limit the tax deductibilty of administrative expenses by HMO’s to 10% of net written premium income, such deductibility to be further reduced if the HMO increases it’s annual premiums at a rate faster then inflation.
3. Limit attorney fees and costs for medical malpractice cases to 25% of any settlement or $100,000 whichever is lower.
4. Limit malpractice claims to actual damages only, no punitive damages allowed.
5. Mandate $20 minimum co-pay every time a doctor is seen. (Studies have shown a small co-pay is the most effective single means to reducing unecessary visits to doctors)
6. Mandate a $10 minimum co-pay for prescriptions.
7. Mandate each insurance companies offer a low-cost/high deductible option for everyone, including those who do not pass underwriting criteria. Such a plan would cover 100% of medical expenses beyond $10,000 per year, 80% of medical expenses beyond $5,000 per year, and no coverage for the first $5,000 in medical expense.
You NEVER see Congress (most of whom are attorneys) passing legislation to limit the income of attorneys, but they sure don’t mind limiting the income of doctors and other working people.
These are just a few steps, not a comprehensive solution, but part of a solution.
Instead of the Government taking over the health care system, they should be taking some steps like these.
Max, you’ll be backing John Edwards then?
Yeah right Doug.
Edwards proposing to limit attorney fees?
That’ll be the day.
So which Democrat are you supporting Max?
Guys I wish these were designer docs. Unfortunately they are right here in Wichita, Ks. Practicing family physicians who still have large student loan balances and see their income going down as well as looking at even deeper cuts. My Doctor neighbor just moved with her PA husband to Alaska which has far fewer restrictions because of the limited number of docs there.
When we stop rewarding docs who seek higher degrees and specialities we will have a mediocre crop of docs. Sad but true.
We do have a healthcare problem but we need to make sure the solution isn’t worse than the problem.
Doug when the dems back tort reform then I will know they have actually got what the healthcare crisis is all about.
All of the above make for good debate about health care in the US.
This tread is about the incremental changes proposed for Kansans. I doubt many, if any, of the posters on this tread know what the KHPA has proposed beyond the tax increase on tobacco and the statewide smoking ban.
Would anyone like to see the entire proposal or just keep yammering on?
http://www.khpa.ks.gov/HealthReform/HealthReformDocs/KHPAReport103007FINAL.pdf
Poster Boy I took a look at this. Interesting info. One thing I gathered was that the cost predictions were for existing Healthwave, Medicaid, Medicare patients. And also small business defined as 1 to 10 employees. It seems that this plan would be deficient in how many Kansans it covers.
Admittedly I gave it a very cursory look because I have an appointment I need to get to.
What do you think are the strengths and weaknesses of the proposal?
JedYou are wrong:”Medicare does a good job and for a whole lot cheaper than private coverage. And if a drug or medical supply company wants it’s products to have a market, they’ll negotiate.
Posted by: Jed | December 16, 2007 at 10:29 AM—-Medicare contracts out its claims processing and many other services.When you call about a Medicare claim, anywhere in the country, you are talking to a person who is on the payroll of an insurance company, contracted to process Medicare claims.
MaxI do not like the HMO concept.I have worked with PPO’s, entirely different.However, an HMO forces the doctor into ethical delemmas, IMHO.
Hillary pushed HMO’s in her first plan.
Now, Hillary’s plan, pretty much, looks like the way we currently handle auto insurance, in this state.
Hillary will FORCE everyone to buy their own insurance.
While I think covering those who fall through the Medicare, Medicaide, VA, SCHIP cracks has some merit, what are we really talking about here?
Those who refuse to buy their own health insurance are often irresponsible people who refuse to take care of their obligations.
Right now, those irresponsible people are screaming for “health care” — Before long, these SAME people will be screaming that they don’t want to PAY for that care!
This is what the whole SCHIP revamp fight is about.
The liberals fully understand that the debate is shifting.
There is ample data to show that many, without health insurance, COULD afford to buy it, themselves.
They just refuse to do so.
If we FORCE all of those people to buy insurance, there will be a political backlash.
So, we delute the political pain, somewhat, by covering the children of those making $80,000.00 a year? That way, the irresponsible parents only have to pay for themselves?
Somehow, that doesnt seem right to me.—–By the way, for a starter, why dont we just make health insurance premiums 100% deductable, for everyone, putting them on the same level as employer paid benefits?
Better yet, lets provide a tax CREDIT for health insurance premiums, which will make up for the FICA tax advantage, enjoyed by employers.
Employer paid health insurance began as loop-hole to get around FDR’s wage and price controls.
Employer paid health insurance continued as a tax shelter.
(There is no FICA tax on health insuranace premiums).
yes, beancounters, I meant no FICA tax on the EMPLOYER paid portion of health insurance premiums.
By the way, everyone:
Don’t our CURRENT programs limit our FUTURE plans?
How, politically, can we provide “Universal Coverage” if that coverage is “better” than:
MedicaidMedicareVAUnionEmployer Paid
Benefits?
How? Yes, I am biased and have opinions about all of this.
However, I am mature enough to realize that compromise is comming.
As a student of politics and history, I just don’t see “universal coverage” having much political advantage. I think this is why Hillary drasctically changed her plan.
I don’t see implementation of any “universal” plan comming very easy, at all.
Not if you have to mess with the coverage that the Teamsters, the AFL-CIO, the NEA, the Machinists and all of the Medicare beneficiaries ALREADY have!
Well Max,
With all due respect you are a little confused about HMOs. Well, actually you’re borderline full of crap.
“One approach we could take today though is this:
1. Allow HMO’s to be sued for Malpractice.”
HMOs don’t treat. There is a perception among some people (strongest amongst the less educated) that HMOs, insurance companies, doctors etc. are responsible for their health and well being. If the doctors and the insurance companies are to blame, let’s make the government responsible!
HMO’s are either contracted by employers (most common) or individuals to bargain and contract with PPOs and Hospitals to provide health care services. When a doctor calls an HMO for approval he is not getting approval for the treatment. He is determining whether or not the treatment that he wants to give is covered. Let’s say that I have a hang nail on my left foot and I go to the doctor to get it cared for. The doctor calls the HMO and asks for coverage. The HMO says that it won’t pay for any treatment below the knee. I get infected and my leg needs to be amputated. Since this can be done above the knee I’m covered. Can I sue the HMO for loss of my left foot?
No. I’m responsible. If the HMO says that my employers contract with the PPO doesn’t cover hangnails (most coverage provided by large employers is a result of labor negotiations between management and union officials can we then sue the union rep too?) then I am responsible for paying for the treatment.
“2. Limit the tax deductibilty of administrative expenses by HMO’s to 10% of net written premium income, such deductibility to be further reduced if the HMO increases it’s annual premiums at a rate faster then inflation.”
Well, this sounds reasonable at first. Very few HMOs work on premiums. There are a few plans out there open to the public (Premier Blue with BCBS is the most common around here) But most HMOs are the large insurance companies that contract with employers and they are very competitive already. The free market pretty much keeps administrative costs as low as possible. BCBS, Cigna, Coventry, United Health Care they are all in the mix to provide administration services for Boeing’s, Raytheon’s and Cessna’s self financed health plans.
If your Boeing coverage doesn’t cover a particular treatment then you have your union bosses to blame as much as anyone. If your health is effected by a union contract, then it’s your fault.
A good example of why your idea sucks is Medicare. The government dictates how much the Insurance companies charge for administration costs and the administration of Medicare suffers.
“3. Limit attorney fees and costs for medical malpractice cases to 25% of any settlement or $100,000 whichever is lower.”
This is never going to happen. Besides, it would only make things worse. American Family, BCBS adnd others have the resources to make all but the most egregious claims go away with this plan. Define “costs”. The costs for researching and for hiring experts and many other things would eat up $100,000.00 in a heartbeat. If you want to do something, do away with class action suits
“4. Limit malpractice claims to actual damages only, no punitive damages allowed.”
See answer to #3 above.
I could go on, but your naive parade of “Mandates” that follow bore and scare me at the same time.
Medicare is crap. It is a cruel joke on our senior citizens. It does nothing better than regular insurance and it is a hidden tax and burden on the health care industry.
If I add up all the monthly expenses associated with my wife’s clinic and I divide that total by the number of patient visits each month I come up with an amount that it cost me for each patient to come in ad breath my air, load down my air conditioning system, use the facilities in general.
Guess what? That number that represents my cost per patient visit is more than my reimbursement from Medicare. Furthermore, the administration costs for dealing with Medicare claims is more per patient visit. On top of all that, I am not allowed to charge a Medicare patient more than what Medicare allows. Also, Older patients are more difficult to treat. They come in with an average of 10 or more prescriptions that you have to consider. They have a health history that is more like the novel “War and Peace”. More difficult, more time consuming and more likely to have chronic vs acute symptoms.
How do we handle this? We are forced to charge insurance companies and our cash patients considerably more, or limit the quality of care to our Medicare patients.
So that my socialized medicine fans is the dirty little secret. For Medicare to be so wonderful in your eyes, every other part of the health care system costs more. If we do all health care under the Medicare model costs will skyrocket or quality of care will suffer.
Hank has an unhealthy obsession with “crap.”
Hank, just because you disagree with someone or some thing does not make that person or that thing “crap.”
Pall,”Medicare contracts out its claims processing and many other services.When you call about a Medicare claim, anywhere in the country, you are talking to a person who is on the payroll of an insurance company, contracted to process Medicare claims.”
Yes, I’m aware of that. It’s still a hell of a lot easier to work with than private health insurance companies, where you never know if they’re actually going to cover an expensive illness or weasel out, or just delay approving treatment until it’s too late. Medicare also worked better before they started contracting it out than it does now.
Yes, there are billions spent on the war. Small amount when compared to social programs and other “Entitlements” for those who feel they should get everything for free while they spend their money on Plasma or Flat Screen TV’s, $200 sneakers, Grills for their teeth, and other crap.
How many different medical programs does it take to figure out the US Government can’t run it correctly? How about Social Security? They sucked the bucks from it for other things. What’s gonna keep them from doing that with any new program? Can anyone tell the readers what program the Feds can run correctly? Come on, someone out there speak up.
Of course there are the very responsible politicians who allow pork spending to be sent home so they can put their names in stone for everyone to remember long after they are gone. There is more money wasted there than with the military.
Ever gone to West Virginia and noticed how many buildings have Byrds name on it? How about free school for illegals? How about expensive bridges to nowhere in Alaska? The list could go on and on and on…
OK Far Left Group Hug Liberals on this blog, put down your kool-aide and do what you do best… start your name calling and flaming now :-D
HankI do not disagree with your most recent post.
However, I do hope that Medigap or Medicare Supplement insurance makes you whole. Depending on the plan, the patients deductable might well be paid by private Medigap insurance.
Also, all of the 20% co-pay should be covered by a Medigap plan.
I have estimated the government, or TAXPAYER subsidy, of Medicare Part A and Part B, combined as roughly 800.00 per month, per beneficiary, in 2007. I did this by looking at what Medicare charges in premium, for Part A, for those who do not qualify for “Free Part A”. I then added that number to the Medicare Part B premium differential. Part B tries to keep the “Premium” at roughly 25% or 33% of “cost” (Their cost) I believe. I will look it up if you want me to.
However, back to the point:
The Medicare Part B premium, for the lower income brackets, will rise, next year. That premium, in 2007, is $93.50 a month.
The Part A, or “hospitalization” deductable, is rising, next year, to $1,024 for the first 60 days.
The Part A CoPay is $256 per day for days 61 through 90 and $512 per day for days 91 through 150.
After 150 days, you are ON YOUR OWN! (And I have seen it happen, mroe than once)>
Also, the skilled nursing care, under Medicare, for most purposes only lasts 20 days. If you can qualify, past 20 days, your copay is $124 per day, for the next 80 days. After that, YOU ARE ON YOUR OWN!
Then, for outpatient care, or out of hospital care, the Medicare deductable is $135.00 per year.
After that, Medicare pays 80%. 20% can be huge, for the Cancer or Dialysis patient.
So, for a 65 year old non-smoker, the Medicare Supplement premium will be an average of about $100.00.
On top of that, a decent prescription drug plan, not counting pharmacy charges, will be about $25.00 per month.
Yes, retired folks have more medical issues than the 20 something crowd.
However, you are a politician looking at this issue.
You fear your OPPONENT running an ad that says:
Congressman shmuck brains just voted to provide health insurance, free of charge, to those making $80,000 or less.
How much are YOU paying for your Medicare, Medigap and Prescription coverage?
(Retired people vote. The 20 something crowd, genearlly, does not vote much. They will if you mandate premiums on them. They will VOTE against those who force mandates).
It is not the lack of medical insurance that we are fighting against, it is the co-dependency and inequality of all of the medical system that we are up against from all angles of it.Btw, how many of you actually research getting medical care without the usage of any kind of insurance?
Btw, how many of you actually research getting medical care without the usage of any kind of insurance?
Posted by: Wiseman | December 16, 2007 at 03:01 PM
If Government Social Health care Insurance comes into play, no one will have that choice of researching.
The government will tell you where to go. :)
Doug what was your point in leading us to a website that is not accurate? Yes it had some information but I follow several legislators votes and there were a lot missing on that site as well as some that were not accurate.
Have you got a site that is accurate or voting information that you have gathered? Or are you, your group the Maggot Punks and Walt Chappel (every white person should be a slave for a year to know what it is like to be black)just spreading your normal bs with nothing to back it up?
I tell my Dr. up front that I have a limited budget for Rx medications… He does tshe best he can do to stay within my limitations… IF I didnt put limitations on it, I could be taking $200 per pill drugs too!! LOL Negotiation is a good thing!!
If Government Social Health care Insurance comes into play, no one will have that choice of researching.
The government will tell you where to go. :)
Posted by: Kansas | December 16, 2007 at 03:23 PM
========================
This is typical Republican bitch, moan, and groan…. So, now, Kansas… PROVE what you say here!!
Show is a LINK that says that will happen if we have universal health care…
Come on, give us a legitimate link… Cause, you know, I havent ever SEEN anything that comes close to supporting that lame line of junk!!
Contrary to popular belief about free medical care for retired military, the McConnell Air Base clinic never has some of the medication I need, so I end up getting a script for Walgreen’s and have to meet the co-pay for it.
Chas, I have Government Health Insurance and one does not get a choice where they get to go. They tell you where to go to get medical attention.
Also, all one has to do is read about any socialized Health Insurance system and one will find that one of the biggest complaints is lack of choice for Medical Care.
So no Chas, I’m not doing your homework for you. If you want to prove me wrong, then the work is on your shoulders, not mine.
Universal coverge did not start out as a health issue rather a want to right a wrong where the rich got taken care of and the poor suffered. It started in a sparsley populated prarie province where a man thought the suffering he saw in the dirty 30’s had to be righted, so he ran for office and eventually became the Premier. He took on the world of pharma/health/insurance/bank lobbies who threatened to pull out of his province should he ever attempt universal coverage and portable pensions. Damn commie! Well they didn’t and the goons sent to intimidate failed ’cause he was a Golden Gloves Bantam Weight Champ who just stared them down. Eventually he was elected to Ottawa where the system was adopted for the rest of the Country and last year was voted the most revered/important/liked person in our history. Not bad for a humble Baptist Minister from the Weyburn Bible Academy of Weburn, Saskatchewan. The origins of our insurance systems are to be found in the Social Gospel. Kinda neat, eh?
Kansas.. YOU made a claim about Gov’t. Health Care Insurance… YOU back up YOUR claim… Thats what you are always telling others… SO, do it yourself!!
If you CANT do it, just say you cant do it… And remember YOUR health care insurance is NOT what is being discussed when it comes to National Health Care!! Or, did you conveniently forget that??
Who do you think will run the National Health Care Insurance if it passes Chas?
The Government?
No, they don’t have the personnel or the expertise.
They will contract it out to Health Care Insurance Companies to run the programs.
Just like my Government Insurance is contracted out to Blue Cross and Blue Shield (Tri-Care- West.)
If you looked behind the scenes of Medicare and Medicaid, they are contracted out to private health care insurance contractors.
Contracts are negotiated.
What you end up with is a HMO style health scare insurance.
Under HMO’s one is limited on who they can choose for a Medical Care Provider. Sure, the patient can try using a referral (required) to get another Doctor, but it is the decision by the health care contractor that ultimately decides who you get to see.
So calm down Chas and wake up to reality.
I think a large part of the problem with health care is too many are in it to get rich.
Whatever happened to just wanting to help people?
health scare insurance=health care insurance
Although in Chas’s case, former might be correct. :D
Kansas, you have NOT proven that your “chicken little” scenario has been even suggested by anybody proposing government health care insurance. THAT is the link I asked you to provide… Dont try switching the direction here… Thats one of your favorite tricks.. It wont work anymore!!
BTW, MY helath insurance program is NOT even close to being HMO… but it is still administered by BCBS… same as yours…
No Chas, you say I’m wrong.
Now go prove it.
I’ll wait.
BTW, MY helath insurance program is NOT even close to being HMO… but it is still administered by BCBS… same as yours…
Posted by: Chas. | December 16, 2007 at 05:10 PM
Big difference Chas, my insurance is contracted out from the U.S. Government (Department of Defense) , yours is not.
YOU made the statement… As you are always telling JR and Cosmos, the burden of proof is on YOU… YOU get the link…
You cant do it, so you are going to try to twist it back to me to provide proof that your statement is wrong… Well, that isnt going to work anymore… You demand proof of others… Now, I am asking you to prove YOUR statement… which should be most difficult, since nobody has ever proposed that as of yet…
No, Kansas… my health insurance is NOT BCBS… but BCBS administers it… just like they do for your program… MY health insurance people use BCBS just like the government does.. It is STILL not HMO…And neither is the National Health Care being proposed…
Good grief, Hillary has said dozens of times that under her plan you will choose your OWN health care providers… AND, you will have a choice to join the program, or not… How much more open can it be than that??
JR bless your kind heart and I say that in all sincerity. You really don’t see that men and women invest years of their lifes and thousands of their dollars to be health care professionals. How can we as a nation then expect them to donate their time for the needy?
Look at the models in the U.K. Chas and their government health care plans.
You can initially choose a health care provider and then you must go to that General Practitioner and ask for a referral to see a specialist or any other kind of Health Care needed. The Physician is not going to get on the phone and find one for you, it will be who ever handles the administration.
In my case, initially I get to choose whether I want to be treated by a Government Physician or I can choose a private General Practitioner (Family Practice or otherwise). After that choice is made, I must go through the referral system if I need specialty health care, I don’t get to make the choice.
Sound familiar Chas? The system of Health Care I am in works exactly like the U.K. Health Care system. Once one is tied into a physician, the choices are over.
There won’t be any choices of “Doctor” jumping once you make that choice.
Once you pick a Medical Care Provider, you can change, but you have a very good reason to change.
You can’t go see Doctor A one week and then go see Doctor B then next, nor can you go see Doctor C on a whim.
You are pretty much stuck in your choice regimen.
I don’t care what Hillary says, it isn’t reality and won’t work. The paperwork would be a nightmare and the contractors doing the billing won’t have anything to do with it.
Hillary’s health care plan as you recall, fell flat on its face when she was First Lady.
Why? Because her ideas are unrealistic.
Kansas, the plan you describe is NOTHING like the plan I have… NOTHING!!
As for Hillary’s plan, the one she has NOW is extremely UNlike the plan she first put out when she was First Lady… A simple reading of both plans will tell you that… You can find her current proposal for health care at: http://www.hillary.com
I didn’t say anything about them donating their time ksgrm.
Many doctors and dentist DO cheap or discount or charity work. The bean counters in insurance and the like are the greed heads for the most part.
I just have to wonder though, how many get into health care to get rich and how many get into health care to help people?
I don’t have the schooling or time investment to compare. But when I worked aircraft, it was the money and the benefits drew me, not any love for building planes I’d never get to fly in. I wonder if it is the same for many in medicine.
Chas don’t believe anything a politician tell you unless it has been written into law and then only as long as the current administration stays in power some times.
BCBS is merely an administrator in most instances. As Hank said earlier BCBS doesn’t determine the plan, it is determined by the employer, the union if one is involved, the commissioner if a city, county or state plan, and the military powers that be if it is Fed. military plan.
Not all HOMs,PPO, and other plans are designed alike. Each has their own panel of participating physicians usually. The co-pays are determined by the plan designers. A self funded group such as Sedgwick county has a panel that determines these and then tells Preferred what to pay out. When people talk about the horror of talking to an insurance company they aren’t really doing that.
Insurance and health care are a puzzle with no easy fix.
Kansas, the plan you describe is NOTHING like the plan I have… NOTHING!!
As for Hillary’s plan, the one she has NOW is extremely UNlike the plan she first put out when she was First Lady… A simple reading of both plans will tell you that… You can find her current proposal for health care at: http://www.hillary.com
Posted by: Chas. | December 16, 2007 at 05:31 PM
Quit whining Chas.
Of course your plan isn’t like mine.
My plan originates out of the U.S. Government – yours doesn’t.
I’ve read portions of her plan and it is unrealistic, will bankrupt the government and simply cannot be administrated in the way she made it. It would be a paperwork nightmare.
You can flail your arms all you want Chas, but I actually have a government provided Health Care plan and I know how it works.
You Chas, don’t have a clue what you are talking about, because the plan you are describing doesn’t exist anywhere on the planet.
JR I am glad you see that some Drs and Dentists do donate time and materials over and over. Many social programs are the result of professionals taking the lead in developing them and then donating the time to keep them going.
My dentist gives me the same rate he gives a participating dentist. I have no dental insurance and if I pay cash he helps me out.
What I am saying is that there aren’t enough hours in a doctors day to help all of the needy so there has to be a better plan. It looks as if the majority of posters here think that should be with government intervention.
Personally I don’t think that is the solution but I could be wrong.
Always worth re telling this story.
The myth that emergency rooms MUST provide care.
In fact, emergency rooms are only required to provide stabilizing care. Then you are on your own.
A friend of mine had insurance. He broke his arm. But he had health insurance. So far so good?
WELL his broken arm caused him to lose his job. SO then he had no health insurance.
Comes time to take the cast off. My friend goes to the emergency room. You know, because he has no insurance? They tell him they will not remove the cast!
He couldn’t get anyone to remove the cast without an office call. At least 120 dollars.
In the end he had to cut the cast of himself.
Kansas, I dont go through referrals, and I am not stuck with one Provider, and I dont have any of the restrictions that you set out… NONE of them… I can choose my own Provider(s) — I can choose my own Pharmacy — even though we have a mail order Pharmacy that works pretty good… I also have a Rx discount card for acute meds…
So, I know our plans arent alike, and I even SAID that.. YOU were the one who said YOUR plan is administered by BCBS… I commented that MY plan is also administered by BCBS…
As Ksgrm points out, BCBS is just the administering body of the Plans that You have, and that I have… Yours from the government… Mine, through our denomination (self-insurance)…
Hillary has NOWHERE said that under her plan you cant choose your own provider… In fact, she has said the exact opposite of that!! The Spin machines are the ones trying to put words into her plan that arent there!!
But, I guess you either cant, or wont see that –
NOW, if she gets elected, and she gets her health care plan, and it ISNT what she has said so far… Then you can bet I will be griping as loud as anybody!! Because HER proposed plan will end up effecting my daughters, and my grandchildren… It wont effect me ONE bit!! Because I wont choose to have it… I will keep what I already have!!
Actually J R, he should have gotten care until the procedure was finished. Usually health care insurance plans are made for periodic time frames, quarterly, semi-annual or annual.
I’m very sure one phone call to an attorney would have clarified that.
If it was for a long term condition, I could see where that could be a problem.
But a broken arm is usually about six weeks or so as I recall. I’m sure arrangements could have been made with the hospital that applied the cast.
Ksgrm, I am aware of the time, and investment that medical professionals put in to their life work. Attorneys also invest a lot of time and funds into their life work. Attorneys are expected to do a certain amount of pro bono work in their careers.
I dont think it would be such a horrible thing to ask those Doctors and other health care professionals who WANT to donate time, to make themselves available at free clinics, etc., in communities.
In fact, I have been involved in those situations on several different occasions, where churches I have served opened their doors to host free clinics, and screening clinics, etc. So, I know it is already being done… It just needs a little more help than it currently gets.
The point is Chas, Hillary’s plan doesn’t exist. If it does, go and try and sign up for it Chas.
I live in reality, here and now.
I don’t live on the promises of politicians. There is a simple matter of getting all that through Congress and then getting it budgeted and authorized.
Guess what Chas? None of that has even happened.
Your blowing smoke of political unrealities Chas.
Chas I am not having luck with the website on Hillary’s plan. Is that the right one? If so what tab do I choose?
Thanks
JR — since your friend was covered by insurance at the time of the broken arm, the insurance should have remained in force for the duration of the treatment process, which, naturally would include removing the cast.
As kansas said, A call to an attorney should have solved the entire matter. Too bad he had to lose his job to an injury… Really too bad if the injury occurred “on the job”.
It’s here ksgrm.
http://www.hillaryclinton.com/feature/healthcareplan/
Here’s an idea.
School for medical personnel is very expensive yes?
Probably, there is no small number of people who would like to get into medicine but they don’t have the money or other resources.
I’m not just talking doctors here. I mean nurses, technicians etc.
Let’s say the government contracts with them to pay their schooling. In exchange, the newly minted medico is assigned to a term of obligatory service in a location the government assigns. Say five years.
After that, the medical person is free to pursue their own interests.
We HAVE the resources and the technology. There is no reason for every American not to have world class medical coverage.*
*Note I DID say American. Illegal immigrants should NOT be getting health care.
Sorry Ksgrm… I didnt get the full URL….
http://www.hillaryclinton.com/splash/
Click on Skip Signup to get to the site…
JR in most instances this would have been included in the payment for the first treatment much as having a crown would not be submitted until the crown was seated. This shouldn’t have been paid until the cast was removed at least in total.
He should go back to the insurance company for another look. Also he should file a complaint both with Sandy Praeger, the insurance commissioner and the state board that looks at physicians behavior.
Sometimes you just have to insist that they look at it again. Oft times the patient is getting an answer from a new or untrained employee.
Probably my friends insurance took the chance he would not question further when denied. He didn’t.
Probably a LOT of people have a similar experience. Insurance companies care NOTHING about people. They are about making money.
I’ll have to ask him sometime if he ever pursued it.
After his arm healed, he went to work for the water department. So I doubt he pursued it further. I THINK the city has pretty good coverage.
Also, he didn’t pay anybody to cut the cast off. He did that himself. So he had no expenses to recover.
They already do have federal service jobs for Physicians J R. :)
I bet 90 percent of young Physicians that are in the Military got an obligation loan from the Government and in return agreed to “X” years of service.
I’m sure there are other plans with the Federal Government as well, but I’m not familiar with them.
With such a high grade point average required for Medical School, most pre-meds can qualify for at least undergraduate scholarship by grade merit alone. Getting medical school paid for is a different story as you care competing against peers who are just as smart. :)
JR – The City always had excellent health care the entire 35+ years my dad worked for them.. Your friend should have excellent coverage now. At least we hope!
Kansas: About choice of MD’s,that seems silly. Perhaps it is because it is a National Plan run from London rather than regionally. Health, education and welfare are Provincial duties, not Federal and hereabouts you pick whomsoever you want as a MD who recommends/makes your appointments with specialists etc., if you don’t like to guy, go elsewhere. Being told what health care pro to patronize seem a bit over the top.
Even the State of Kansas has a Medical School program… The State will pay for your entire Medical School costs, provided you give them back TWO years for every year in Med School… Not a bad trade, for the cost.
At least I think they still have that program working..
The service given in return is in areas of Kansas where there is low, or no medical services available. Thought I would add that!
Thats what my canadian friends tell me, Northern!! Thanks for weighing in here… much appreciated…
Being told what health care pro to patronize seem a bit over the top.
Posted by: northern neighbour | December 16, 2007 at 06:04 PM
Perhaps that’s true in Canada northern neighbor.
However, in the U.S. we all know who the administrators of any new health care plan will be and that’s the Health Insurance Companies.
I mean what’s the population of Canada? 35 million? Heck, there is almost that many in the State of Texas. :D
What I’m inferring, is that allowing 300+ million people in the U.S. to change Doctors on a whim would be a nightmare.
Think about it, just the cost of transferring medical records from one Physical to another let’s say low estimate is $5.00 U.S.
If everyone in the U.S. did it once a year, that’s 1,500,000,000.That’s 1.5 billion dollars for all you greenhorns.
That will never fly. And that’s just the cost of moving medical records – no lab records, no xray records, no health billing records and etc.
Talk about run away costs!
Chas you beat me to the draw. That program is still in place however the locations are sometimes less that desirable.
JR when we lived in Miami, OK my husband always ran the chains for the local JUCO. We were a football powerhouse and often had high caliber players come and spend one or two years with us to get a GPA that would let them in Division I school. We had a young player named James Wilder who was a phenominal player. I knew the first time he ran up the field we wouldn’t have him long. He broke both hands and had them in cast when homecoming night came around. He had a good first half playing with the cast but NEO was behind. At half time he asked the team doc to take them off and he refused because they hadn’t been on long enough. He then said give me something I can cut them off with. My husband said the doc handed him a small saw and said I didn’t see a thing as he left the room.
We won, he had a great night, went on to make history with Missouri and then played pro for Atlanta a number of years.
I guess it wasn’t a bad thing for him.
Kansas and Chas the Hillary plans sounds like the Avandia plans now available for Medicare patients.
The HMO and PPO would be managed as they are now. In an HMO you pick your primary physician and cannot self refer. You physician must send you to a specialists. If for something he could and should have handled the fee would come out of this monthly payment for that patient. They are paid so much a head for each patient whether they see them that month or not.
If you choose PPO you can pick from a panel of participating physicians and can also self refer as long as the specialist you choose is part of the panel also. These doctors or their employers have negotiated fees that the insurance will pay.
This sounds like her plan if indeed she is letting you choose from existing plans.
The downside will be that she says all will be insured so those that currently opt out will be paying to be in a plan or will be assigned one if they have to go to an emergency room and haven’t choosen.
Kansas is a dumb ass.
Prove that you are not, Kansas.
See, you can’t do it.
******
It’s called shifting the burden of proof, Chas.
An old, old con job.
I can prove that I’m not a dumb ass.
Anyone want to take a College level (Graduate Studies) Physics or Calculus Test Challenge?
Except for MPS, he’s pretty smart. :)
Dear Tom,
I think you are full of crap. If you can remember me ever using the word ‘crap’ before then it might be that you are the one with the unhealthy obsession.
Just an observation.
Sure, Kansas.
Just come up with some system where we have objective evidence of the results and don’t have to rely on your “word” (hahahaha) for anything.
Yeah Capn, they call those people Test Proctors – you can pay them to supervise examinations :)
Are you sure you went to a College Capn? :)
Kansas: About 30 million folks in a country larger than yours, or a less than 3 people per sq.KM. I don’t want to get into your intra-family discussion but there is a lot of disinfomation as to costs, service and how the needs are met. I quit now!
What are you blathering about?
Okay, Kansas.
I just played Jeopardy on-line and made some money.
See if you can beat it.
http://www.station.sony.com/casualPopUp.vm?Id=003
Kansas: About 30 million folks in a country larger than yours, or a less than 3 people per sq.KM. I don’t want to get into your intra-family discussion but there is a lot of disinfomation as to costs, service and how the needs are met. I quit now!
Posted by: northern neighbour | December 16, 2007 at 07:14 PM
Okie Dokie Chas :)
What are you blathering about?
Okay, Kansas.
I just played Jeopardy on-line and made some money.
See if you can beat it.
http://www.station.sony.com/casualPopUp.vm?Id=003
Posted by: CapnAmerica | December 16, 2007 at 07:14 PM
No thanks, I don’t use Spam Generating Web Sites.
————————What am I blathering about?
Surely you know what a Test Proctor is – but maybe not from your state here -
”
Sure, Kansas.
Just come up with some system where we have objective evidence of the results and don’t have to rely on your “word” (hahahaha) for anything.”
Posted by: CapnAmerica | December 16, 2007 at 06:57 PM
It appears you don’t know what a Test Proctor is Capn. :)
Kansas–
You’re proving that you’re a dumb ass.
Of course, I know what a test proctor is.
But what are you suggesting, that we enroll in a college somewhere so we can take their placement tests in physics?
Not a very workable plan, is it?
Now my plan on the other hand would only take about five minutes of your time.
But you’re copping out . . . as usual.
A dumb ass, and a coward, and a conservative.
Yup, the trifecta.
Mr. Computer Whiz Kansas is scared of spam.
Again . . . dumb ass.
You really ought to try it, Kansas.
One entire column I played was on the “number 19″ which sucked because it was all about sports.
So I didn’t do as well as I could have.
My score is beat-able.
If you’ve got the guts to put up or shut up.
But what are you suggesting, that we enroll in a college somewhere so we can take their placement tests in physics?Posted by: CapnAmerica | December 16, 2007 at 07:27 PM
What the…
You said you were an architect.
I’m fairly confident that Architects have to be certified and tested before they are allowed to work on their own.
That requires and examination.
That examination has to be proctored.
It doesn’t need to be done at a college, nor does one need to enroll into a College to have a test proctored.
Oh, and here is one for the State of Kansas for Architects.
National Council of Architectural Registration Board
http://www.kansas.gov/ksbtp/architects.html
Are you on some kind of drug, Kansas?
You can’t take professional exams just to prove you’re better at something than some dumb ass you were arguing with on-line.
But the fact that you won’t even TRY to play Jeopardy tells me you really are . . .
Well let me put it this way.
Kansas looks like a dumb ass. He acts like a dumb ass.
But don’t let that fool you.
He REALLY IS a dumb ass.
(Thanks to Groucho Marx who presceintly defined all CONs)
I think I’ll have to book mark this page to trot out for future reference when you start gassing about something you know nothing about . . . which is about half a dozen times a day . . .
Yeah Capn, you wanted to use an online game to prove you were smarter.
What does that make you? :)
Evidently folks, I have deeply embarrassed the Capn as he had no idea what a Test Proctor is or how they work.
He’s a bit embarrassed about his lack of understanding, so please do be gentle with him. :)
In grad school, I used to work as a test proctor.
Just unbelievable . . .
How bout we scrap the national income tax, and turn it into a voluntary health coverage tax. With those who choose to pay taxes into the voluntary health coverage would recieve more benifits. While everybody would be covered with a basic coverage.
You’d think that health care would be covered by our taxes, but I guess not, I guess our taxes are spent on more important things, like funding war.
In grad school, I used to work as a test proctor.
Just unbelievable . . .
Posted by: CapnAmerica | December 16, 2007 at 07:59 PM
Uh huh…sure thing Capn.
WhiteEl
National Defense is actually mentioned in the Constitution.
In fact, mutual defense was the primary purpose for every country every getting stared, in the first place, starting with the “city states” of Greco-Roman days.
“….promote the general welfare”
I worked as a proctor and I used to be part of a team that would go through and analyze results–basic item difficulty and discrimination.
One wants the item to be difficult enough that not every one gets it correct yet not too difficult that no one gets it correct.
On the other hand, the items have to discriminate between the good performers and the poor ones. If just as many “bad” students get it right as “good” ones, the item fails to discriminate good from bad.
What’s so hard to believe about a grad student helps a professor administer and analyze his-her tests?
I did it often for both graduate degrees I earned. It’s quite commonly done.
“”,,,promote the general welfare”
Preamble Constitution of the United States
I just remembered, it was in those same courses that I learned about ANOVA.
Hehe . . .
Good catch, JR.
The CONs love to skip over that part, don’t they?
The problem is, what do we do when the money we spend on “the common defense” vastly reduces the money available for “promoting the general welfare”–as it is now.
We spend more than HALF of our federal tax dollars on the military. The IRS likes to confound the public by including Social Security payments along with military expenditures.
BUT, we have a special tax just for Social Security, which btw actually collects FAR MORE money than is necessary to cover the current expenses for Social Security.
When you eliminate SS, as you should, more than HALF of the federal taxes go to pay for our current and past costs for the military. Also, a large part of the interest on the national debt is associated with military expenses.
We spend more on our military than ALL THE MILITARIES in the world COMBINED. Even though are GDP is the largest in the world, we spend about twice as much as our allies as a percentage of GDP on the military.
This is welfare for the rich–billions for Halliburton while sick kids die in the street.
Yea, National Defense, not National Offense. Theres a difference, and no one in our government will admit that going to Iraq was an Offensive move. Not a defensive strategy like they tried to slip by us by calling it a pre-emptive strike which was founded on false pretenses. Our homeland isn’t all that more secure, our homeland defense, which is really national defense could have been beefed up, including the Mexican border if we used the billions of our tax dollars on that instead of funding a private for profit war.
“are GDP” should be OUR GDP
“sick kids die in the street” Capn?
Only if they get shot by a gang-banger or OD on drugs.
Show me some cases where someone DIED because of a lack of health insurance.
” Show me some cases where someone DIED because of a lack of health insurance.”
I am sure it happens. Who would hear about it?
There are examples of people suffering and dying who DO have health insurance that won’t pay claims.
See “Sicko” by Michael Moore available on DVD
Michael Moore is a lying political hack.Try again.
I can tell you one case Paul. Lady whose job I took over last year. Had a bachelor’s degree, working in a receptionist job because her health had pushed her out of her previous job. The job didn’t offer insurance. She went years without seeing a doctor. She started having symptoms, but nothing bad enough till it was too late. She was in end stage liver failure. She died two months after i took over her job. Never got out of the hospital.
Had she had insurance, she could have gone to the doctor and gotten labs drawn. Such a simple test.
DO watch sicko. It has very important information for those who have health insurance.
Show me some cases where someone DIED because of a lack of health insurance.
Posted by: Econ101
A few weeks ago, Andy was diagnosed with pancreatic cancer, one of the more dangerous varieties of the disease. His doctors told him he needed a Whipple procedure to get at the tumor, and only a few hospitals in America can perform this complicated procedure with the required competence. To compound the problem, Andy shares the plight of millions of others in our disgusting for-profit health care system and does not have health insurance.
A friend with connections was able to get him a slot at Johns Hopkins, one of the premier medical facilities in America that specializes in Whipple procedures. Johns Hopkins, however, required a $25,000 down-payment before they would let Andy onto an operating table. Furthermore, they required the payment immediately, and wanted another $25,000 once the surgery was done. Andy and his friends spiraled into despair as they faced this seemingly insurmountable obstacle.
http://www.truthout.org/docs_2005/050305B.shtml
It turned out that John Hopkins upped the ante to 50 grand, which we left-wing bloggers were able to raise.
BUT, because hateful right-wingers just like our friend Econ complained to PayPal that Andy was committing “fraud,” the funds were held up for weeks.
As a result, Andy did get the procedure, but his case had advanced. He later died. Many people believe that the DELAY KILLED HIM.
Not only that, anyone else in his place wouldn’t have the money and would have died anyway.
The lies of Michael Moore:
http://www.slate.com/id/2102723
Capn stories like that should not happen in the United States.
Nobody has called Fred Barnes a liar, ever, and been able to prove it. Fred Barnes says he has never met Michael Moore, and never spoken to him on the phone, yet Moore made up a story about Barnes:
http://www.weeklystandard.com/Content/Public/Articles/000/000/004/127ujhuf.asp
And, a list of other blogs ripping Moores “sicko” lies apart:
http://www.kevinmd.com/blog/2007/04/michael-moores-sicko.html
No one reads your links anymore econ.
Not after you used a right wing chat room as a link.
CapnMedicare and Medicaid deny coverage all the time.So does the VA.
Also, the primary complaint, from Canadians, about the Canadian system is the long delays or waits before a procedure can get approved and then performed.
Delays will happen, especially on rare, experimental and dangerous procedures.
The lies of Michael Moore:
http://www.slate.com/id/2102723
Posted by: Econ101
That was talking about the F 9-11 film, sheesh.
It NEVER pays to click a pauliecon link Capn.
“You never know what you’re gonna get”
CapnMy point is that Moore is a documented liar and opportunist.The topic doesnt matter, but ALL of his films are bogus political propaganda!Also, I did link SEVERAL Michael Moore lies. The Blog filterd the links.
So I went back and did some of them, individually.
Here is a great example of the British National Health Care system that Hillary and others want for the USA to emulate.
http://tinyurl.com/3dkzk3
Here you go:
“Pancreatic cancer is a malignant tumor within the pancreatic gland. Each year about 33,000 individuals in the United States are diagnosed with this condition, and more than 60,000 in Europe. Depending on the extent of the tumor at the time of diagnosis, the prognosis is generally regarded as poor, with few victims still alive five years after diagnosis, and complete remission still extremely rare.[1]”
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pancreatic_cancer
In other words, goverment run health insurance would probably NOT pay for the pancreatic cancer procedure in question.”Rationed care” means that a poor prognosis, with most people not living more than 5 years after diagnosis, would not be covered.
Medicaid and Medicare deny claims all the time.
Good grief, econ, Moore is the Rush of the liberal set. With either, you know what you’re getting. Propaganda? You bet; they both do it. You’re arguing nonsense.
“Nobody has called Fred Barnes a liar, ever, and been able to prove it.”
Posted by 100% clueless econ101
‘JUST LIKE AL SAID! Russert pushed them RNC points. Somebody go wake Fred Barnes!’http://www.dailyhowler.com/dh120202.shtml
I thought I quit…anyway, Kansas: Your idea of “runaway costs” are a projection, rather that acutal experinces expressed as a % of GNP or per capita expense I guess. Universal coverage costs less than similar insurances in the US, at least that is what I hear from international compaison figures bandied about. I my first post I suggested that the origins of universal insurance arose from the Social Gospel, which trumps bean counters.
Do YOU deny claims econ?
Get a bonus for it lately have you?
The MEDIAN survival rate, after the operation in question, WITH chemo and radiation, is 17 months!
http://www.cancersupportivecare.com/pancreas.html#stage
In other words, this child was going to die, with or without the operation.
I am glad the child got the operation.
However, even if we get socialized medicine, I think heroic efforts, like this one, will be covered, pro-bono, by the charitable and medical field.
. Allow HMO’s to be sued for Malpractice.”
HMOs don’t treat. There is a perception among some people (strongest amongst the less educated) that HMOs, insurance companies, doctors etc. are responsible for their health and well being. Posted by: Hank Price | December 16, 2007 at 02:15 PM——————————————————————–
Hank, you are completely wrong on this. HMO’s absolutely control what medical care you get. They approve or disaprove every treatment you get. The Doc either follows their guidelines or gets approval if the best treatment falls outside of their guidelines.
Bottom Line: HMO’s ARE making medical decisions regarding your care.
However, the HMO’s have ZERO malpractice liability, even though the HMO makes decisions regarding what treatment you get or don’t’ get.
Give the HMO’s some liability, and they are likely to deny treatment less often.
As far as limiting attorney fees and class action suits, it should happen, but is not likely to, since attorneys write all of our laws.
You don’t usually rant like that Hank, having a bad day?
“Show me some cases where someone DIED because of a lack of health insurance.”
Hmmm
Well Capn gave pauliecon an example. politicalmom did too.
What say ya paulie?
Kansas: About 30 million folks in a country larger than yours, or a less than 3 people per sq.KM. I don’t want to get into your intra-family discussion but there is a lot of disinfomation as to costs, service and how the needs are met. I quit now!
Posted by: northern neighbour | December 16, 2007 at 07:14 PM
Okie Dokie Chas :)
Posted by: Kansas | December 16, 2007 at 07:18 PM
============================
What are you prattling about here, Kansas??
JMYou will never be able to find complete fabrications and bold faced lies in what Limbaugh has said.You will, obviously, disagree with Limbaughs conclusions.
However, in honesty, Michael Moore is a cheap, lying propagandist.
Limbaugh, on the other hand, is a very sincere, truthful propandist.
It is entirely possible to have an opinion without making things up.
Try this:
Fred Barnes says he has never spoken to Michael Moore, yet Moore quotes Barnes as saying something he never said.
Show me where Limbaugh has EVER claimed to interview someone that he has never spoken to, will you please?
Hank can be forgiven for his lack of acquaintance with reality Max.
Hank has had his health care mostly taken care of by the government.
What you say about HMOs is true Max.
You should have SEEN the hoops they made me jump trough to get an upper GI.
Maybe what finally convinced them to allow the procedure was when I threw up on the reps desk.
Rush Limbaugh: any veteran that disagrees in any way with george bush is a “phony soldier”.
Michael Moore: Published a book of soldiers letters from Iraq that disagreed with bush policy re:Iraq.
I will get the name of that book.
pmomLiver transplants are often denied by government health plans.
Was hepatitis, Tylenol poisoning or alcohol involved?
“Dude where is my country” by Michael Moore
Nice approach JR. I’ll have to remember that next time I’m getting harrassed by my insurance company.
In your case, your Doctor is saying you need an upper GI, and the insurance company said no.
The insurance company IS making a decision regarding your medical treatment, and the insurance company should be subject to malpractice liability for decisions like this.
You know, we don’t have any controls over what attorney’s charge. We rely on their high ethical standards! (Right)
Why are doctors considered LESS trustworthy then lawyers?
The Army times uses the phrase “phoney soldiers” so I think Limbaugh can use it too:
http://influencepeddler.blogspot.com/2007/09/limbaugh-on-solid-ground-on-phony.html
Show me some cases where someone DIED because of a lack of health insurance.
Posted by: Econ101 | December 16, 2007 at 08:35 PM
=======================
Econ — With 47,000,000 people NOT having health insurance in the USA, the odds are AGAINST your overly pompous notion that none of them die because they dont have insurance to get treatments they NEED.
ALSO — If you are going to post on something as specialized as a Whipple procedure, you would be much better off citing a reference from WebMD.com, than from Wiki….
My sister died from Pancreatic Cancer… had the same health insurance as Kansas has, or something similar (military).. That diesase is soo horrible that it basically has very few, if any, symptoms… She was diagnosed on Feb. 14, 2003 — Dead on April 20, 2003… Her doctors told her there was NO surgery for that type of cancer..
Max”Legal Insurance” has been tried, but it doesnt work very well.
Any 3rd party payment system will stand between doctor and patient.
I am a realist on this part of the issue:
Government is no more kind hearted than corporate America.
Government is just more wastefull.
ChasThanksI think!
Yes, I go to the medical sites too, for such things.
However, I try not to speak above or below the heads of my clients.
Wiki, usually, is more down to earth than the Med Journals.
Well it wasn’t intentional Max.
We had an HMO where I worked. I heard lots of stories like mine where treatments and procedures were denied.
I don’t have a lot of experience with government health care. My dad was on medicare two years ago this time when he was declining.
The doctors could not figure out what was wrong. MANY tests were done and rehab was allowed.I don’t remember trouble or him being refused any test or treatment.
The rules did get a bit more strict when he was found terminal.The hospital was not at all accommodating.
These are the experiences I have in reference to HMO private care vs. government care.
And Chas
As far as people “not getting treatment because they dont have insurance” — that is, pretty much, hogwash.
The “wellness” features of most, private, healthplans sadly go unused by the vast majority of people.
Also, the PURPOSE of insurance is to pay for catastrophic expenses that are hard to budget.
Insurance should NOT pay for routine maintenence issues.
Does your auto insurance pay for oil changes?
Does your homeowners insurance pay for paint jobs?
Everyone in Kansas has access to health care. We have more free and pro-rated facilities today then we’ve had in the past.
Some will only take people without insurance and some will take you and cover what your insurance will not pay.
If you really think Canada has a great system you should talk to the people that actually use the system. They will tell you that if you have something major such as cancer etc. you will not get treated. If you are connected you might or if you have the money to come the the United States you will. Otherwise you wait for months or years and then you may be refused because they ration the special care.
You have no idea how fortunate we are in the United States to have the freedom to decide.
Econ, I’d like to see less Government regulation.
But, as long as the Gov’t is meddling in controlling health care costs, they might was well expand controls for the lawyers share of the rising health care cost problem, and put some controls on the insurance companies too.
Cutting doctors pay is leading to higher charges for non-Medicare patients, and leading to doctor shortages.
If Hillary gets a chance to nationalize and control 100% of our health care, we will be AFU.
In other words, you should go to the doctor whether you have insurance or not, if you are sick.
Why?
Because insurance should not pay for small budget items like doctors visits, anyway!
It is always hard to put individuals into a box, but another problem is this:
Those who are too irresponsible to buy health insurance for themselves, even when they can afford it, are often too irresponsible to go to the doctor, when they should.
The purpose of insurance is to collect money and then deny claims.
Lived it learned it.
Econ, what do you think about either a government mandate to all insurance companies or a government catastropic only health care plan:
1. To pay 100% of care needed above $10,000/year.
2. To pay 80% of care needed between $5,000 and $10,000 per year.
3. To pay nothing under $5,000.
No underwriting would be allowed, but premiums should still be fairly low and affordable.
Sort of like the FAIR Plan homeowners and auto insurance available in most states.
Econ, my car insurance doesnt pay for oil changes… BUT — some Warranty plans DO — And a Warranty plan IS a form of insurance…
However, my Health Insurance DOES pay for routine Dr. visits… And if I had it, routine Dental exams, and at the proper age, annual Mammograms for the females… ALL routine!!
I dont think I know what you are talking about there!! In fact, I dont know of ANY Health insurance plan that DOESN’T cover those “routine” things…
Geez Max you seemed to get it.
HMOs are not in the business of getting people well. They are in the business of collecting money and denying claims.
They would embrace the reverse of your idea maybe. Where the cheap stuff they can pay and deny the more expensive care.
2. To pay 80% of care needed between $5,000 and $10,000 per year. (posted by MAX)
Max- That sort of thing is already in place for many people. My plan has an out of pocket Maximum annually! If I pay more than $X, my plan pays the remainder at 100% above my out of pocket Maximum. I take it you havent heard of such a thing??
Sure was a life saver when I had 7 months of Chemo and 2.5 months of Radiation in 2004!!
MaxI am sorry, I think I misundertood you, upthread.
I do think some malpractice caps are absolutely going to happen.
Why? Because, when government becomes liable, government will protect itself!
In a way, since malpractice insurance costs are a huge cost in medical care, it is surprising that it has taken this long. (strong trial lawyer lobby) But, it will happen.
However, from sad personal experience, I am well aware that malpractice exists. When it causes severe disability, that malpractice damage can easily run into the millions, in actual damages.
Another sad fact: mistakes will happen, no matter what we do. It will help if we quit running our hospitals like factories, since everyone is unique, and the presentation of every illness is unique. Also, I wish all nurses had the power to challenge the MD’s in writing, without fear of reprisal. I also wish patients and families of patients had a system for challenging medical decisions, instead of being brushed off by staff, nurses and doctors alike.
“Diagnose with your ears, not your mouth” it has been said.
I suggest the book: “Terminal Bleeding”.
However, lets be clear, mistakes happen due to human error, not due to payment arrangements.
Off the subject, but here’s a medicare example for you. My dh was in the hospital. Contracted hospital based drug-resistant entero cocci (sp?) which is much worse than staph.
the hospital social worker called me and said we “needed to talk.” At that time I didn’t know about the entero cocci. she indicated that the hospital wanted to release him but we “needed to talk first.”
I asked “what’s the problem?” Amazingly she didn’t have his medical file and couldn’t call me. So I called upstairs to talk with the nurse.
She said, ‘Oh, he has drug resistant entero cocci. He has to take 2 pills a day for 14 days. We can release him if he can take these at home.’ I said, “OK, what’s the catch.”
If he stays in the hospital for an additional 14 days, medicare pays for the meds. If we release him, he pays for the pills. I said, “Ok.”
She said, “well, the pills are very expensive.” i said, “How expensive?” “$200.00 a pill,” she say. Gack!
$400 a day for 14 days. You do the math. I said, “no way. you want my first born?”
Social worker calls me back. Says, “we can work this out.” “HOw so,” I ask.
she say, “I think we can get the pharmaceutical company to pay for this.”
Long story short. i have no clue what strings were pulled or how it was done. But the hosptial released him. I went to the pharmacy to pick up the med.
the pharmacist walks over and says to me, “This is very expensive medication.” I say, “no kidding.” He say, “don’t worry, we’ll get our money.”
Who can afford a $200 pill twice a day for 14 days for crying out loud.
Look up drug resistant entero cocchi/cocci..on the CDC. It’s hospital based. And why was the hospital not “offering” to pay for this?
My point is this. Medicare is ok, with limitations of course. My dh also had a secondary policy….excluding meds.
i would have fought with the hospital over this. As soon as I got off the phone with the nurse at the hospital, I immediately went to the CDC site and looked this up. But would the average person do that who is not that familiar with meds/medical treatments?
And believe me the hospital was offering no options at that time. “We can release him. Can you come pick him up?” Until I told the social worker at the hospital what they could do with their $200×2 a day pills, they were insistent that I pick him up.
now….with any changes in social medicine…would this scenario have gone differently?
I am going to post what is on the Hillary web site once more, so you all can go read it, and find out how much drivel is posted on here about what Hillary has NOT said >>>
http://www.hillaryclinton.com/feature/healthcare
MaxWhat you propose makes more sense than 90% of the other ideas I have heard.Let me think on it.
beck: to answer your dilemma…
Two words: Most Likely! The meds would have been covered, or at least 80% of them. See my previous note about “Out of Pocket Maximum” – which is already available now, with some health care plans.
ECON — Read this from what I posted upthread!
http://blogs.kansas.com/weblog/2007/12/do-not-give-up.html#comment-93824416
DougI said insurance SHOULDNT pay for routine things.I think it is wrong that it does.That is not the purpose of insurance.
Think of it this way: insurance that pays for routine things is only “trading dollars”. The purpose of insurance is to spread risk.
If I have a pool of 10,000 people, and I know they will ALL go to the doctor once a year, on average, what sense does it make to cover the first office visit and then charge a premium of $10 or more, a month, to cover that “risk”?
There is no “risk” involved. This is a planned expense.
It makes as much sense as buying “cable tv bill insurance”.
Pay it yourself, directly, since the average person should be able to budget routine checkups.
Sorry Doug, I meant Chas for the above post.My apologies.
Off the subject, but here’s a medicare example for you. My dh was in the hospital. Contracted hospital based drug-resistant entero cocci (sp?) which is much worse than staph.
the hospital social worker called me and said we “needed to talk.” At that time I didn’t know about the entero cocci. she indicated that the hospital wanted to release him but we “needed to talk first.”
I asked “what’s the problem?” Amazingly she didn’t have his medical file and couldn’t call me. So I called upstairs to talk with the nurse.
She said, ‘Oh, he has drug resistant entero cocci. He has to take 2 pills a day for 14 days. We can release him if he can take these at home.’ I said, “OK, what’s the catch.”
If he stays in the hospital for an additional 14 days, medicare pays for the meds. If we release him, he pays for the pills. I said, “Ok.”
She said, “well, the pills are very expensive.” i said, “How expensive?” “$200.00 a pill,” she say. Gack!
$400 a day for 14 days. You do the math. I said, “no way. you want my first born?”
Social worker calls me back. Says, “we can work this out.” “HOw so,” I ask.
she say, “I think we can get the pharmaceutical company to pay for this.”
Long story short. i have no clue what strings were pulled or how it was done. But the hosptial released him. I went to the pharmacy to pick up the med.
the pharmacist walks over and says to me, “This is very expensive medication.” I say, “no kidding.” He say, “don’t worry, we’ll get our money.”
Who can afford a $200 pill twice a day for 14 days for crying out loud.
Look up drug resistant entero cocchi/cocci..on the CDC. It’s hospital based. And why was the hospital not “offering” to pay for this?
My point is this. Medicare is ok, with limitations of course. My dh also had a secondary policy….excluding meds.
i would have fought with the hospital over this. As soon as I got off the phone with the nurse at the hospital, I immediately went to the CDC site and looked this up. But would the average person do that who is not that familiar with meds/medical treatments?
And believe me the hospital was offering no options at that time. “We can release him. Can you come pick him up?” Until I told the social worker at the hospital what they could do with their $200×2 a day pills, they were insistent that I pick him up.
now….with any changes in social medicine…would this scenario have gone differently?
So, Econ, you would have us to Warehouse health care even MORE than it already is?? That doesnt make any sense! If the poor cant afford Dr. visits NOW, how will they benefit from a health care plan, where they will have to PAY for Dr. visits?? And, I dont know about YOU, but my Dr. visits arent PLANNED, unless they are for the A1C for diabetes (which is chronic care), or my wife’s Mammograms, which comes under preventive/diagnostic… Same would apply for Prostate screenings… Now, WHY should I pay the full amount, when my Health Insurance carrier covers all but $25 of my Dr. visit?? And NO Co-Pay for Emergency Room?? Huh??
OH — BTW — The plan I hve also has an annual deductible… Which means I pay 100% up to a certain amount, then it goes 80/20 to Out of Pocket Maximum… THEN the plan steps in, and pays 100%
Econ, what do you think about either a government mandate to all insurance companies or a government catastropic only health care plan:
1. To pay 100% of care needed above $10,000/year.
2. To pay 80% of care needed between $5,000 and $10,000 per year.
3. To pay nothing under $5,000.
No underwriting would be allowed, but premiums should still be fairly low and affordable.
Sort of like the FAIR Plan homeowners and auto insurance available in most states.
Posted by: Max | December 16, 2007 at 10:09 PM
Just don’t have sickness or injury in December that lasts into January and you’ll be fine. :D
ChasThe “poor” have Medicaid, remember?
Let me explain it this way:
In the insurance business, we have “transaction” products and we have “reserve” products.
Life insurance, for instance, is a “reserve” product. Actuaries can, pretty much, figure out what to charge, at any age, for life insurance. It pays only once, in a large lump sum, upon death, of course.
Health insurance is too much of a “transaction” product, as it stands today. There are huge expenses involved where the insurance company, admitedly, is only the “middle man” on an expense that is NOT, really, an actuarial reserve calculation at all. Much of health insurance claims processing, in the routine transaction side of the business, is like managing a checking account. Lots of small transactions every year. Add an inflaction factor and admin expense and you are done.
For the transaction oriented portion of the health insurance business, it would be best to pay “out of pocket” since there is no real “risk” involved with routine checkups and such. There is also no real “value” added by the insurance industry.
However, as pointed out, upthread, the value of pure “insurance” kicks in when dealing with “catastropic” expenses. Insurance should pay for those things that most people would not be able to handle, on their own, out of pocket, without severe hardship.
Insurance companies could “spread the risk” in a true, honest, insurance manor, with those expenses that might exceed $5,000 or more in a single year.
This should help bring down the costs.
Those who are uninsured, by choice, would no longer be able to drive the costs up, by not paying their medical bills, which costs then get shifted to the rest of us
As for the truly poor?
Again, Medicaid.
There is no such thing as a free lunch.
I still say, the major hurdle to any single payer pipe dream is the huge political backlash involved in changing existing plans, in any way.
Kansas
General rules are that if you are admitted, in December, and not released until January, Medicare does NOT hit you with two annual deductables.At least, that is what I was told in training, years ago.That is also how my clients bills have generally worked.
Ok Econ.
No easy solutions to this problem.
I agree with your point that malpractice does happen. I’m not saying we should limit malpractice lawsuits for actual damages at all. It’s the punitive damages awarded by juries that don’t make sense. And outrageous attorney fees and costs add to the health care cost problem too.
Beck, who is “dh”? Designated hitter? (Just curious) Your story illustrates how insane our current health care system is.
And Chas, the Catastrophic health plan I described (for those who can’t afford or obtain health insurance) covers nothing under $5,000 and 80% between 5 and 10 thousand. 100% above $10,000. I think your plan covers a little more then that?
A Catastrophic plan would provide coverage for major health issues for people who have nothing now. It’s not a premium plan, but it is an affordable plan for most.
I’ve posted Hillary’s plan before along with some critique of that. No time tonight, maybe some other day.
Many will never understand why absolute control by government is a bad thing. Even if I had time, I doubt if I could convince the Libs here why that is true.
inflation not inflaction factor. wow, it isnt even that late.
Econ, thanks for your “insurance primer” But — I used to work for Prudential… I know all the theories… As you well know, the theories go out the window when you start to deal with REAL people, who have REAL illnesses, who are dying REAL deaths!
I JUST wrote about the Out of Pocket Maximum that my own plan provides… THAT saves me a TON some years!! Other years, I never use it, or need it… Those years, my premiums are helping somebody else!! Ahhh Haa!! You see, the PREMIUMS we pay cover ALL of the clients in the program… NOT just MY share!! Now, if some yahoo comes along and wants to call that socialized medicine, so be it… But, thats the way the system works NOW… I dont see where a government health care option for those who dont have anything is going to be a problem!! I mean, like you say, we already have Medicare and Medicaid!!
The private hospitals (where are the public hospitals?) have their role in the denial of treatment too.
Friend of my dad. They never knew what was wrong with her.
Hospitalized for fainting and internal bleeding, she was nursed and released after a few days. I visited her in ICU.
A few days after her release, she collapsed at home. CPR was administered. She was taken back to the SAME hospital. She was removed from life support less than 48 hours later.
They do not even know why she died.
Econ, thanks for your “insurance primer” But — I used to work for Prudential… I know all the theories… As you well know, the theories go out the window when you start to deal with REAL people, who have REAL illnesses, who are dying REAL deaths!
I JUST wrote about the Out of Pocket Maximum that my own plan provides… THAT saves me a TON some years!! Other years, I never use it, or need it… Those years, my premiums are helping somebody else!! Ahhh Haa!! You see, the PREMIUMS we pay cover ALL of the clients in the program… NOT just MY share!! Now, if some yahoo comes along and wants to call that socialized medicine, so be it… But, thats the way the system works NOW… I dont see where a government health care option for those who dont have anything is going to be a problem!! I mean, like you say, we already have Medicare and Medicaid!!
Sorry about the double post… Something isnt right with the “catch bot” tonite
I still say, the major hurdle to any single payer pipe dream is the huge political backlash involved in changing existing plans, in any way.
Posted by: Econ101 | December 16, 2007 at 10:47 PM
Since 85 to 90% of America has medical insurance, why screw-up the entire system to solve the problem of 10 to 15% of Americans? Actually, not that many.
That 47 million uninsured figure is brought up in every health insurance news story I read. They need to footnote that figure to make it clear that nearly half of those 47 million are illegal immigrants, and a good portion are people (some wealthy and some young) who choose not to buy health insurance, even though they can afford it.
So the scope of the uninsured problem is for a population of 10 to 15 million or 5% (FIVE) of all Americans.
We have problems to fix, but we don’t need drastic changes and government controlling all of it.
But — I used to work for Prudential… I know all the theories… Posted by: Chas. | December 16, 2007 at 10:56 PM
Which offices did you have to sweep out?
Amazing but no surprising.
To pauliecon, human beings are no more than beans to be counted.
Their suffering irrelevant. They are figures on a page with a bottom line.
ChasIF the system is a catastrophic system which requires payment from those who can afford to pay, and if the system does not compete, directly, with private programs or other government programs, and if the purpose is to avoid medical cost shifting and medical bankruptcy, I will take a good, honest look at it.
We are paying for the uninsured who do not pay their own bills. Those costs are tacked on to our bills.
Yes econ and the illegals figure into that.
YOU are in favor of amnesty.
Tricky huh? To balance the benefit of slave labor benefitting unfettered capitalism with the costs to society?
No matter what we do:
People will still get sick.People will still die.Some claims will still be denied. (even in a government plan)
And, drumroll —
Some people will STILL bitch!
No Econ, if we get Free HillaryCare!, then everyone will be happy.
You know that is what most people think about HillaryCare!, that it will be Free!
BS.
Kansas, you know he wasn’t a sweeper. He counted paper clips.
You might be causing someone to have a Chasism tonight.
Take bean counters like paulecon out of the equation and you go a long way to addressing the problems.
It is BECAUSE of his ilk that we MUST consider socialized medicine.
Name a Democrat, running for President, that favors deportation of all illegal aliens in this country, any of you?
I do not favor “amnesty” I just realize that it would be better if we figured out how to control our borders, first, and I also understand that we dont have the resources to deport everyone. I think many will leave on their own, if we can get Mexico to start changing their own backward economic system and if we can convince employers to obey the law.
I do agree, we should NOT devise a health care plan to cover illegals.
That is just one more magnet to bring them North of the Rio Grande.
Which offices did you have to sweep out?
Posted by: Kansas | December 16, 2007 at 11:02 PM
=======================
and which General’s A$$ did you kiss while you emptied his ashtrays?? Hmmmm????
I was a Prudential AGENT in Nebraska many years ago!!
Why dont you try just ONE whole day of actually interacting with the posts, instead of coming up with your DAMNED BS CRAP all the time??
It would make things a LOT nicer on this Blog!! You are such a WASTE of mind, Kansas!!
Awwww Chas, I was just funnin’ ya.
Here, have a mint. :)
“if we can convince employers to obey the law”
Now you do not mean that pauliecon.
I can go get where you say government should get out of the way of business.
How DO you keep your lies straight?
Econ, at least read the general over all umbrella plan that Hillary has set out….
And TRY to read it with as much of an open mind as if it was something being proposed by your own Home Office??
And I guess that would mean, take off the “political” glasses… If you are as good in Economics as you say you are, that shouldnt be a hard, or difficult thing to do… And a FAIR thing as well!!
I mean, after all, Insurance protection shouldnt be a political football for ANYbody!
Thats what they always told us at Prudential way back in the day!
We don’t have to deport 20 million illegal immigrants. Most will leave on their own if we:
1. Seal the border.2. Establish an instant background check system for all who are legally able to work in America.3. Establish large fines for employers who hire anyone who does not pass the instant background check.
4. For large or repetitive violations by employers, jail time!5. Stop the welfare for illegal immigrants.
Kansas, you are NOT funny! I am not laughing at you… crying maybe… but never laughing!!
IF you are half as smart and intelligent as you pretend to be, you could make a huge difference in our society…
Too bad you dont believe that!!
Prudential told you Insurance Protection shouldn’t be a political football for anybody?
Must have been that Corn Husker influence thing.
4. For large or repetitive violations by employers, jail time!================ (by Max)
Hey Max, even your man Romney doesnt go for jail time for employers using illegals… He said so today on Meet the Press!!
Did you miss that??
hey Max?
I am on board with that.
Wait and hear what econ has to say. Illegals they have their place in his plus and minus calculations.
IF you are half as smart and intelligent as you pretend to be, you could make a huge difference in our society…
Too bad you dont believe that!!
Posted by: Chas. | December 16, 2007 at 11:25 PM
Shoe size doesn’t count Chas (size 14)
:)
Why dont you actually go read up on Prudential policy, before you go shooting off your mouth-keyboard… Anybody knows that an insurance agent sells his/her product to anybody – regardless of political persuasion, or agenda! Shoot, just ask Econ, he wont even argue with that!!
I take that as an admission that you really arent half as smart as you pretend to be?? LOL
Okay Chas…
Would that be under “football” under Prudential Policies or should I look under “Customer Relations” or “Motivational Speeches?”
No, scarred up people don’t do very well in public. :)
You know what to look up — but you wont do it!! Because you already know I am right!! It’s too late to play your flaming and baiting tricks… Why not just go to bed?? You will get more out of it!!
BTW, I didnt say ANYthing about public… I simply said, If you are half as smart as you pretend to be, you could make a huge difference in our society!
I dont seem to find a word, “public” in that sentence…
ChasI will agree with you there.
Everybody’s money is the same color of green.
Everybody deserves the same respect and the same service.
And, these days, post Patriot Act and post HIPAA, everybody has to indentify themselves.
Thanks Econ… I appreciate that!
I have an early set of appointments tomorrow…. So –
Good night; Good luck; God bless; whatever you conceive of God to be!!
Blessings All!!
MERRY XRMAS!!
Beck, if it was hospital acquired, you should have gotten a lawyer- I’ll bet the hospital would have eaten all of those costs had you threatened to sue.
People DO win lawsuits where they get a hospital acquired infection.
Paul, since it is ok to refuse service for a low chance of help anyway, I guess next time I’m called out to a code blue, I won’t even bother. Since you know, the chances of getting them back are pretty small.
That’s your logic in defending the insurance company’s business. It is really telling about what kind of person you are, that you can defend these practices without even batting an eye. Whatever helps you sleep at night. Just remember, everything you own is dependent on someone’s death.
PAUL, you ass. She SHOULD have been diagnosed well before she was in end stage renal failure. That was the point I was making. Bonehead. I said nothing about a liver transplant.
You said people don’t die from lack of health insurance and that is utterly false. Many have given acute, and long term REAL LIFE happenings and you are still making excuses. Disgusting.
By the way, you’re taking one word against anothers in Michael Moore, you haven’t proven anything. Even IF MM was wrong, you can’t deny all the other stuff he claimed. And I love how you linked to a site that was just bashing his opinion and not his facts.
and “change” there have been plenty of polls that show Canadians are happier with their health than ours. And I have personally spoken to Canadians who feel our system is crap compared to theirs. Yeah, the more people who get access, the longer you have to wait. So basically, YOU think the poor should have to wait since you’re covered now. Actually it’s the middle class working poorer who have to wait. The poor usually gets in with their medicare/medicaid. Class warfare is alive and well in the USA. Screw you if you don’t have insurance, I’m more important and I deserve to go first.
pmom
I am trying to make a point.
Life is hard.
People get sick.
People die.
The government declines insurance claims as often, or more often, than private insurance.
Your “solution” of government insurance does NOT guarantee that claims will be paid.
Liver transplants, as would probably be necessary, in the case you brought up, require some heavy screening.
If it was a suicide attempt with Tylenol, REJECTED.
If it was alcohol abuse tied to Tylenol use, REJECTED.
If it was Hepititis combined with unsafe sex practices or shared needles, maybe REJECTED.
REJECTED, or at least delayed, by Government plans.
You libs bring up hard cases, then waive your “magic wand” of socialized medicine, and then claim that your stated complaints will be solved.
You call conservatives “heartless” when we explain that:
Rationing ALWAYS increases under a government program, meaning declined claims INCREASE!
People will still get sick.
People will still die.
You think I lack compassion?
I think, on this issue, Liberals lack common sense.
If we give you EVERYTHING you think you want, the things you complain about will only get worse, not better.
AndPmomMost of us, in insurance or medicine understand the issues involved with liver disease.
I notice you failed to answer:
Was alcohol involved?
Was Tylenol involved?
Was Hepititis involved?
Yes, you are correct, not every liver problem requires a liver transplant. In fact, you can live for a long time with a damaged liver or only part of your liver.
However, most people with liver damage get on a waiting list for transplants, right away.
Those waiting lists have requirements and questions to answer.
How will those questions disappear, under a government plan?
Will a government plan produce more organ donors?
How?
PAUL, you ass.
Posted by: political_mom | December 17, 2007 at 07:22 AM
So the WE has selective editing on this blog, depending on whether the poster is Liberal or Conservative.
I get it.
“Access to a waiting list is not access to health care,” the Court proclaimed, going on to say that as long as the government was unable to provide effective health services, it had no business preventing its citizens from procuring these services through private means.
http://www.nationalreview.com/comment/dick200512200840.asp
The above is the result of a lawsuit filed by a physician in Canada. If you read the entire article you will see a litany of problems faced by their health system.
Notice being put on a waiting line was the answer to a diagnosed need for a hip replacement.
Every plan will have its problems and that poster ‘Northern Neighbor’ doesn’t seem to have a good grasp on the program.
Northern Neighbor may be too healthy to know better.
Or may just be a Hillary Clinton supporter pushing an agenda.
Or may be Pmom in disguise.
(Ooops, don’t criticize Pmom or anything Liberal, it might get deleted!)
MaxThanks!However, in defense of WeBlog, some nasty questions and comments, aimed at me, were just deleted.Thanks everyone!Maybe reasonable people can continue to debate, without all the personal trash.
“Personal trash” . . . you mean like re-posting e-mails about other bloggers, Econ?
CapnThe person who you are defending sent several nasty emails to me.
Dont send me nasty emails unless you are ready for me to post them, in whole or in part, whenever I want.
Ah let pauliecon post whatever he wants.
He always manages to make himself and his side look bad.
Econ: “I did NOT throw children under the wheels of moving cars to protest abortion. So, stop saying that!”
Better be careful, Econ, or I’ll have to re-post the e-mails that your homosexual partners sent to me . . .
It was not me that got deleted, not one word, not on this thread.
I realize:
1.) It is not my Blog.2.) That my conduct here reflects on my Party, the Conservative cause, and my beliefs.3.) That the misconduct of the left, on this Blog, hurts their cause, as it hurts my cause when my allies “loose it” every now and then.
However, I think it is time for some rules.
Personal attacks against other Bloggers should be avoided.
Personal attacks against the family members of bloggers should get you banned from the Blog.
If and when I ever have my own Blog, those will be the rules.
CapnWhat are the quotation marks for? I never said that, and you know it.As for any emails that you received about me? LOL whatever.I have 5 kids, a special grandchild and a beautiful girlfriend, and a pretty happy life.
Too bad you liberals try so hard to scare off those you disagree with.
However, it is a rather obvious admission that your ideas can not stand up, on their own.
I’ve said it before.
I could not CREATE a better poster than paulecon to represent his ideas.
He’s like the gift that keeps on giving.
By the way.
My girlfriend is a Democrat. A Democrat with far more political clout than any of you, on this Blog.
Is he trying to convince the readers or himself?
Ya just never know.
PAUL, you ass. She SHOULD have been diagnosed well before she was in end stage renal failure. That was the point I was making. Bonehead.
Posted by: political_mom | December 17, 2007 at 07:22 AM
This post is STILL there.
Unbelievable!
The WE blog allows Liberals to post anything, yet deletes conservative’s posts!
Critique a movie, if it’s a Liberal movie – Pooooof! The Post is gone!
Cons, ya better read fast!
Political Mom is an Ass. And a bonehead.
See if this one get’s deleted, while Political Mom’s post stays.
My girlfriend is a Democrat. A Democrat with far more political clout than any of you, on this Blog.
Posted by: Econ101
So that makes her James Carville and you Mary Maitlen?
PAUL, you ass. She SHOULD have been diagnosed well before she was in end stage renal failure. That was the point I was making. Bonehead.
Posted by: political_mom | December 17, 2007 at 07:22 AM
This post is STILL there.
Unbelievable!
The WE blog allows Liberals to post anything, yet deletes conservative’s posts!
Critique a movie, if it’s a Liberal movie – Pooooof! The Post is gone!
Cons, ya better read fast!
Ksgn:About the waiting list, this story made healines here and I was mad as hell until it came out that 95% of patients who need hip/knee relpacement are obeses or overweight and must loose weight until they become good candidates for a successful surgery and able to handle the following therapy, hence the delay. The guy didn’t want to follow his doctors advice, so got a nice social comment, but no surgery. The insurance lobby has a lot of friends in the US/Canada and the National Revue is hardly an impartial comment on things. There are right wing think tanks in both countries that come up with these incomplete comments but when you track down each defamation you find they are somewhat lacking. Elective surgery is not given the same priority as needed procedures and I got no problem with that. There was another post about cancer care lacking, well there is a history of that in my family and my MD sends me annually for a colon-rectalscope just in case. But the comment is just silly. Timely porcedures are guanteed even if the patient has to leave the jurisdiction which happens, although rarely. The US is thought to do an unbelieveable amount of cutting in health care pratices where the rest of the world tries therapy and life style changes first where possible, without endangering the patient. That can be misconstrued as waiting I guess.
So the WE has selective editing on this blog, depending on whether the poster is Liberal or Conservative.
I get it.
Posted by: Max | December 17, 2007 at 09:05 AM
=============================
Im not sure you do Max — It isnt the Lib or the Con — It is the language/attitude that gets it pulled!! The person should not be attacked — just the idea!! Most folks presume that use of the term “A$$” has something to do with attitude..
I dont know what WAS removed… wasnt up at that hour… Just going on what I have seen so far on posts that are pulled.
I dont know what WAS removed… wasnt up at that hour… Just going on what I have seen so far on posts that are pulled.
Posted by: Chas. | December 17, 2007 at 04:18 PM
——————————————————————–Chas you Bonehead. Chas you Ass. Can’t you read?
See below:
PAUL, you ass. She SHOULD have been diagnosed well before she was in end stage renal failure. That was the point I was making. Bonehead.
Posted by: political_mom | December 17, 2007 at 07:22 AM
Max, I dont think that was pulled!
Evidently, you didnt read the rst of my post, or else you are purposely ignoring and refusing to post what I said in connection with your above cut/paste…
I SAID, It would appear that it is the wording/attitude of the post, that seems to get it pulled.I also said that “Ass” seems to have some degree of acceptance of a description of attitude.
As in, Max, you are acting like an Ass! See?? Try that one!!
Chas, I can’t believe you are defending this.
I don’t mind an uncensored blog.
But if it is to be censored, the WE should pull all the nasty posts.
(And save a considerable amount of server space!)
MaxMaybe I am too much of an “ass” to be listened to, according to PMOM, but “renal failure” is actually KIDNEY FAILURE.
http://www.merck.com/mmpe/sec17/ch233/ch233c.html
If PMOM doesnt know the difference between Hepatic Failure and Renal Failure, is it possible that she made up her story?
Liver failure is Liver Failure, or HEPATIC Failure.
http://www.merck.com/mmhe/sec10/ch135/ch135h.html
They can happen at the same time, Renal and Hepatic failure, or one can affect the other, I think. That usually means you are dying!
However, alcohol and acetomiphene and hepititis (Often contracted innocently, frequently contracted through illegal activity)tend to be the causes of Liver or Hepatic failure.
“I’m not a Doctor, but I play one on this Blog” lol.
Anyway, if she is talking about HEPATIC, or LIVER FAILURE, chances are very high that the patient, involved, had lifestyle issues.
If she is talking about RENAL or LIVER failure, well, we do have kidney dialysis.
PMOM uses the terms interchangeably. I therefore doubt her knowledge of the case involved.
No Max, not defending… Since I dont know WHAT was pulled, I am only guessing at why it might have been pulled… As I said before, it was most likely pulled because it attacked a poster, instead of attacking a post. That is the usual reason. And please remember, some of our young people DO read the Blogs as well…
Sorry, my mistake this time:—–If she is talking about RENAL or LIVER failure, well, we do have kidney dialysis—–Should have read:
IF she is talking about RENAL or KIDNEY failure, well, we do have kidney dialyis.
My apologies, and my admission that she might have just been confused.
My excuse?
Was listening to fundraiser on TV about the lights out at Heartspring, on East 29th. Do try to go see them. They are great!
Also, there is a fundraiser, toys accepted, for Rainbows United, up on North Rock Road. Wish I had the address for that.
Anyway, I was distracted.
Maybe PMOM was distracted, too.
And hey, the kids tell me I look like Jack Nicholson.
Jack makes “ASS” look classy and chic.
I will see If I can pull it off, ok?
Econ, you might well guess as to her interchanging of terms, but it probably isnt good to guess as to her knowledge of the case. Not everybody knows the difference between Hepatic and Renal failure.
Then again, maybe she was describing two conditions, both of which were effecting the patient. In which case she could use the terms interchangably, as both would be leading to death!
dialysisI cant “Multitask”
lol
My wife says I goofed in my last post by using the word “cutting” instead of “going under the knife” or “surgery” referring to the US health care practises. Ammended herewith!
I wonder if northern neighbor knows Das?
Kansas would appear to be full of legumes which have produced a noxious vapor. What ever is he prattling about now?
Das Boot?
Das Capital?
I am kinda stumped, too, KS
Evidently Chas has forgotten that one of his guests that stayed at his house was named “das.”
For the umpteemth time Chas, here is the entire offensive post that has not yet been pulled.
You have dyslexia or selective reading?
——————————————————————–PAUL, you ass. She SHOULD have been diagnosed well before she was in end stage renal failure. That was the point I was making. Bonehead. I said nothing about a liver transplant.
You said people don’t die from lack of health insurance and that is utterly false. Many have given acute, and long term REAL LIFE happenings and you are still making excuses. Disgusting.
By the way, you’re taking one word against anothers in Michael Moore, you haven’t proven anything. Even IF MM was wrong, you can’t deny all the other stuff he claimed. And I love how you linked to a site that was just bashing his opinion and not his facts.
and “change” there have been plenty of polls that show Canadians are happier with their health than ours. And I have personally spoken to Canadians who feel our system is crap compared to theirs. Yeah, the more people who get access, the longer you have to wait. So basically, YOU think the poor should have to wait since you’re covered now. Actually it’s the middle class working poorer who have to wait. The poor usually gets in with their medicare/medicaid. Class warfare is alive and well in the USA. Screw you if you don’t have insurance, I’m more important and I deserve to go first.
Posted by: political_mom | December 17, 2007 at 07:22 AM
And Econ, you caught some things I noticed before about P Mom.
Nurse who makes $18,000/yr?
Changing bedpans maybe.
More then that? I doubt it.
Based on her confusion of medical terminology, I’d have to give her an F rating, for medical expertise, based purely on her postings here.
It could be that her actual skills surpass her writing ability.
Wouldn’t be too difficult to accomplish such.
Oh Max
I am VERY disappointed in you.
Didn’t you know? Pauliecon IS an ass.
“The US is thought to do an unbelieveable amount of cutting in health care pratices where the rest of the world tries therapy and life style changes first where possible, without endangering the patient. That can be misconstrued as waiting I guess.
Posted by: northern neighbour | December 17, 2007 at”
Northern neighbour you are so full of it. I have had two knee replacements and have seven sisters and a mom who have had this. None of us had to wait until we reached a desireable weight. That is just crazy. If you have ever walked on a destroyed knee you would know how ridiculous you just sounded. I’m suppossed to get up and go to the Y every day to lose weight when I can’t walk across the room without a walker.
I don’t know who you are but you are not a Canadian or at least not a smart one who knows anything about anything medical.
I had my first knee replaced at 55. If I had been put on a ‘waiting list’ until I made some lifestyle changes the gov would be paying 100% of my upkeep to take care of me 24/7.
What an idiot! Was that a personal attack?
And by the way North Neigh you can keep the socialized healthcare in Canada. We don’t want waiting list here. We want the level of healthcare we have. The article posted this morning was a very true and accurate picture of what Canadians have.
Just when I think I won’t lose my cool an idiot comes along and is so stupid I can’t hold it.
Well dearie?
I am so pleased that you can have your health care.
Would you mind awfully if I had some too?
See? Because you don’t want to wait an extra minute or three in the waiting room, I got nothing.
And I wouldn’t mind a waiting list. It’s better than NOTHING.
WOW
Seven sisters AND your mother ALL needed knee replacement?
That has GOT to be some kind of record.
No one in my family has ever needed a knee replacement.
You don’t mind if my kid and I have a little basic health care do you?
JR get a job just as I did and purchase your healthcare just as I did. Quit saying you won’t work for any man. You are independent. Independence is what you have when you can take care of yourself on your own dime. When you can’t then you become dependent on my dime.
And by the way I don’t appreciate idiots like the NN pretending to know something when they are just basically ignorant and are giving false facts about a healthcare plan they know nothing about.
Well JR we have a degenerative joint disease that runs in our family. I wish it ran in yours so you could get some healthcare.
That is one of your dumber statements. Anyone that has gone through a joint replacement could tell you how dumb that sounded.
ksgm,
I think northern neighbor lives in same house as das.
Kansas I believe him and Sugar have been hanging out together. What an idiot. Better quit before I get riled up.
So much for your conservatism there grm.
Go work for someone else for my health care.
How about discounted health insurance or government coverage for the self employed? The competition would drive down costs as the insurance companies and HMOs would be forced to compete, no?
I’m looking for solutions here and you are just of the position you got yours so everybody else should just have no health care.
JR you are looking for an easy fix so you can continue to work for yourself when you aren’t making ends meet. Why do I and 80% of the US population have to give up our healthcare coverage that we like and take something less like the Canadian waiting lines because you want to work for yourself?
So much for your conservatism there grm.
Go work for someone else for my health care.Posted by: J R | December 17, 2007 at 09:39 PM
That pretty much says it all about
J R.
:D
“Go work for someone else for my health care.”
JR many people do this everyday. Why can’t you? It would be reasonable. This is why socialized medicine will never fly because of people just like you. They could work somewhere that provide it but choose not to. They could take it from their employer but choose not to.
You have a pie in the sky idea about what will be expected from you when/if it ever becomes law. There is no free lunch. Someone has to pay the piper. Who will it be?
JR if your situation is as you state it why doesn’t your son qualify under Healthwave?
You can stay out of this “kansas”JM YOUR health care AND your sustenance comes from the government. Thanks.
Grm?
Where is the end point of the system you so love? MOST people already are dependent defacto slaves to their employers for their living and fewer all the time also for their health care.
What is it you wish for?
That he who has the gold makes the rules, dispenses the necessities of life AND decides who is worthy of health care?
Why you little feudalist you.
ksgrm, closer to 95% of Americans have Health Insurance.
Since 95% of America has medical insurance, why screw-up the entire system to solve the problem of 5% of Americans?
That 47 million uninsured figure is brought up in every health insurance news story I read. They need to footnote that figure to make it clear that nearly half of those 47 million are illegal immigrants, and a good portion are people (some wealthy and some young) who choose not to buy health insurance, even though they can afford it.
So the scope of the uninsured problem is for a population of 10 to 15 million or 5% (FIVE) of all Americans.
If you don’t have health insurance, then find 19 of your neighbors who do have health insurance, and hold out a tin cup and ask them to pay for your health insurance.
Problem solved.
JR whether you like the system or not it works and has for years. What has happened in the last several years is the large influx of illegals taxing our healthcare system just as they do our schools.
We were unfortunate enough to have to spend some time in an emergency room on a Saturday night not long ago. My husband was passing a kidney stone. While waiting to for his doctor to come we saw young families one after another bringing kids with colds, earaches, slight fevers, runny noises – things I would have taken care of myself if it were my child. Without exception they looked to be Mexican and few could speak english.
The system isn’t broke – our culture is in crisis.
JR many people do this everyday. Why can’t you? It would be reasonable. This is why socialized medicine will never fly because of people just like you. They could work somewhere that provide it but choose not to. They could take it from their employer but choose not to.
You have a pie in the sky idea about what will be expected from you when/if it ever becomes law. There is no free lunch. Someone has to pay the piper. Who will it be?
Posted by: Ksgrm | December 17, 2007 at 09:47 PM
It will NOT be JR paying for himself, this is sure.
He comes up with some kind of feudal lord excuse for not working. I know people like this. They actually rationalize their laziness, dependence, and complete worthlessness to this world.
“Go work for someone else for my health care.”
JR many people do this everyday. Why can’t you? It would be reasonable. This is why socialized medicine will never fly because of people just like you. They could work somewhere that provide it but choose not to. They could take it from their employer but choose not to.
See? This is what I’m talking about.
First off, more and more employers are NOT providing health care. Or they are using HMOs which deny treatment.
But never mind that. If I have to choose government provided or employer provided health care? Well yes I choose government provided.
I can vote on government. Outside of unions, most employees have no voice to speak back at their employer.
Too? Can you argue that small business and those who work for themselves is on the rise? I can assure you it is not. Are we going to choose to further consolidate and confine the American dream to the few already in the game or willing to play it?
LET the government compete in the health care field. I KNOW it is against your nature to believe, but government encourages business and innovation.
Where would Bill Gates be without the government created internet?
Maybe you missed it Max.
I do work. It is not just personal choice to avoid the punchclock. It’s health issues too.
And ksgrm you won’t find me at odds with you as to illegals. I COMPETE with illegals. Damn give me a leg up with health care at least.
People like JR are too good to work.
Though they complain about the feudal lord, they think they themselves are royalty, much too good to exert themselves and bring sweat to their brow.
As long as big socialist government is there to pay their way, why should they work for a living?
These people were born into a world that owed them something. Just for being born, they woke-up, saw their first light of day and said, “Here I am! Ain’t I great! Give it to me! Gimme Mine! Gimme Mine! Gimme Mine!
It’s not like they aren’t able.
Very few people are not able. I’ve known many handicapped people in wheelchairs who are more self-reliant and independent then JR.
They aren’t willing to work.
They are lazy.
And Socialists like Hillary Clinton will ENABLE the lazy by granting Socialist Programs in exchange for their votes.
THAT is the game.
Working people are getting tired of playing this game.
And when Hillary raises taxes so high that we keep less then 1/3 of what we earn, we will all quit and become Socialists too!
And the gravy train will end, in a smokin heap of rubble.
Buried beneath the rubble will be our kids and grandkids. And in 2150, they will rise-up and start the cycle all over again.
You are being an idiot Max.
I’m not on any government aid myself.
Yeah my kid had the equivalent of SCHIPS til bush cancelled it.
Never worked? Please. I ruined my health in a good paying job in aircraft.
But ya know Max? Then I run onto people like you.
I’ll not speculate unkind on you as you do me.
Is that your vision Max? Everybody working for somebody like you do?
JR having worked in the insurance for 10 years I can tell you what will happen. The government will never be able to take on a project this massive so it will be farmed out to the highest bidder just as medicare is now. Wheatland ins. is now the administrator for years it was BCBS. That is who you deal with not the gov. They administrator the plan just as the gov tells them to. They pay off a schedule dictated by the gov. Probably the product of board certified physicians who will also look at each claim and predeterminiation to decide how to pay. Nothing changes except – now many people who weren’t contributing will be. Many who won’t work will be on the dole and the workers will pay until they tire of it.
I could go on but you see that you will still deal with the same company you don’t want to deal with now. If you choose an HMO then you will be bound by the constraints of that HMO. No negotiations.
I can vote on government. Outside of unions, most employees have no voice to speak back at their employer. JR——————————————————————–
Smart-mouthed back-talker Mr Know-it-alls do not work well as team players for any company, even their own company should they be capable of forming one.
You appear to have an anti-authority complex, perhaps rooted in your own insecurities. Job-training or more education might, with much effort on your part, help you gain the skills that will give you the confidence you need to succeed. You are a bright guy, and I’m sure you can climb many ladders, if you try.
JR, working against your employer will get you no where. Working against your employees, will get you no where.
It takes 2 or more working as a team to get anything done. You either succeed together or you fail together. No one makes it on their own. No one dies on their own. It’s a team. Get it?
When you learn that lesson, then you have a chance at succeeding in life.
JR what happened to Healthwaves. I have been out of the industry for a few years but know it was a good program when it was developed. Good dental and medical.
You are so afraid of socialism Max.
Well in being so against a little bit of it that could be helpful, you may get yourself a lot of it.
Or…
Well we see more and more how business controls government. Both sides too.
Shall we make that worse? More power to big biz and so more control by them in government?
If you make me choose socialism or feudalism, I choose socialism. I’d rather NOT choose.
:D
Health wave is ok ksgrm.
Geez Max you are SO confused.
One minute you are a proud conservative the next you are
“Smart-mouthed back-talker Mr Know-it-alls do not work well as team players for any company,”
Which ARE you? Do you even know?
And you are also getting rather nasty when I am not.
“You either succeed together or you fail together. ”
Thanks Max.
Can we do that as citizens as opposed to doing it as employees?
Damn but I do like your passion Max.
We just got to get you pointed the right direction. Toward solving problems instead of embracing them.
Civil Service, State Government and Military retirees EARNED their health insurance benefits.
Working for, and earning, benefits is NOT the same as asking or a hand out, doing nothing to merit that hand out.
For heavens sake, even a part-time job, at Dillons, will earn health insurance benefits.
For the business world, paying for health insurance is a tax break and a recuiting tool.
However, the tax break portion of that equation HAS muddied the water, to the point where it gets hard to explain what insurance is really intened to do.
It makes NO sense to buy insurance to cover routine, planned expenses of small amounts of money. UNLESS you have a tax break in the mix, that is.
That is why HSA plans make so much sense.
I pay a reasonable premium for my coverage. I have a %5000.00 deductable. After the deductable is met, I pay nothing, unless I go out of the “network” in which case I have to pay 20%.
Then, I put tax deductable money into an Health Savings Account. I can use that money for doctors visits, if I want, or any other medical expense not covered by the high-deductable insurance. I would rather just let it grow to retirement, however, if I can keep my hands off of it.
My premium, for this plan is reasonable. I put the difference in premium, between the $5000 deductable plan and a $1000 deductable plan, into the Health Savings Account. That premium difference is now MY money. I only spend it if I want to, and it carries over every year and grows every year, IF I want it to.If I had paid that difference in premium, that money would be gone forever.
Anyway, there are lots of great ideas out there.
First, however, you need to take some PERSONAL responsibility.
The first rule of health insurance:
Health insurance protects wealth, not health.
If you are poor, there is welfare or Medicaid. Be careful, however. Medicaid WILL go after your estate, under “Estate Recovery Rules,” after your death.
If you don’t have much, in the way of wealth, it might be a reasonable decision to go without health insurance, at least for a brief period of time, as you get back on your feet.
However, you should USE the money that you save, in premiums, to pay your OWN darn doctors office visits!
I nominate Max’s 10:15 as the most fused liberalconservative one I have ever seen.
JR I am looking at some kind of reform but I see it in a different way than you. We need a way to group small businesses together or even independent contractors such as yourself. THis would give us more buying power much as the big package store such as Walmart.
When you take the experience of small business they might have older employees, or a person with major health issues. By having the large groups then the claim experience of each small business wouldn’t determine the rates paid.
This would save money for small businesses and allow you to buy in at a lesser rate also. This makes me want to go back to work and try to put it all together. I know it can be done but I don’t see a candidate being honest about what has to happen.
Econ are the HSA now carried over. When they first came out you had to use them in the calendar year that the contribution was made. This made you do calculations about copays on braces, pharmacy copays, etc… Letting them build makes much more sense.
I know that the medical for our small company is outrageous. Being able to form larger groups from like small groups would help with premium and the actuaries would then look at an industry for instance instead of a small business.
Unfortunately, this is an issue that grows in importance.
You know what happens with issues. They become political tools.
Solve the issue, lose the tool.
Throw in the illegals issue to make it even MORE confusing.
What we have is a perfect storm.
Business increasingly controls politics. Worst case we get some hybrid of socialism and feudalism.
Best case, we keep those two competing with each other with my admitted bias toward socialism.
ksgrm
Look up HSA
The old plans, that work under “use it or loose it” rules, are MSA plans.
HSA plans tend to be a self-employed tool. However, they are available to everyone who has a qualifying “High Deductable” insurance plan.
HSA plans allow the money to be carried over indefinately, and the funds can then be used, in retirement, for long term care expenses or other needs.
“Feudalism” is a system in which property rights were not given to the peasants.
IRRESPONSIBILTY is when individuals will not take ownership of their own problems.
“Feudalism” is a system in which property rights were not given to the peasants.
Said another clearer way, “He who had the gold made the rules.”
“IRRESPONSIBILTY is when individuals will not take ownership of their own problems.”
“If you cannot conform to the rules it is your problem.”
econ is another faux conservative. pauliecon is faux everything.
ksgrm
You can use Intrust Bank as the HSA savings account. Very convenient that way, for me.
http://www.intrustbank.com/Personal/HealthSavings.aspx
I currently run my own health insurance through Coventry of Kansas.
Lets be clear; an HSA is two entirely seperate accounts, an insurance account, with a qualified High Deductable insurance company, and an HSA account, in an IRS recognized HSA account, at a bank.
You watch us Max. Me and “econ”.
See if you want to buy what he is selling.
And I’ll leave off with another idea.
MOST people, they like to give back.
How about medical care in lieu of community service?
The local or Federal government pays your health care and you give back by cleaning a park or tutoring a kid etc? I’m game.
As another poster has noted, someone on this Blogn might need some counseling.
Personality disorders are usually not covered by insurance, however.
Personality disorders are ingrained. They aren’t “illnesses” they are individual traits that are nearly impossible to change.
Therefore, insurance doesnt cover them.
Tell the doctor that you are bi-polar or schizoid, if you want some couch time.
Nobody pays for “therapy” to cure a personality disorder, not even the government, since: THERE IS NO CURE!
http://personalitydisorders.suite101.com/article.cfm/personality_disorders
Whoops, my mistake, dont tell them you are “schizoid” that IS a personality disorder.
Instead, file the insurance claim as Schizophrenia, that is a different matter, and it is treatable.
http://www.schizophrenia.com/
“Co-morbid” is the term used to describe multiple diaganosed problems.
I am thinking a combination of “Cluster A” and “Cluster B” under the DSM or Diagnostic and Statistical Manual.
Kssrgm: Nope, no personal attack was intended, just reponding to a critique I felt was unfounded. Two folks I know had that knee surgery, one an active tennis player in her 60’s and my mother-in-law, both slender with no long waiting periods I can recall. Obeseity causes strain and pain on the weight bearing joints and one way to reduce a future problem is to reduct the load, or the procedure may be worthless. I am not claiming universal coverage as superior to the US system, just trying to explain it. If you guys don’t want it, don’t do it. For me, universal insurance is like the cops, firefighters and military, they serve us so well, but are targets for less than accurate comments/sniping and I play defence when that happens. As I said in a previous post, I don’t want to get into your intra- family squabble about health insurance, but just try to say what universal coverage means. To me it means a lot.
Another great success story for Nationalized/Socialized Health Coverage from Great Britain:
http://tinyurl.com/23mopy
Another great success story for Nationalized/Socialized Health Coverage from Great Britain:
http://tinyurl.com/23mopy
“Obeseity causes strain and pain on the weight bearing joints and one way to reduce a future problem is to reduct the load, or the procedure may be worthless.”
NN this is such a patently ridiculous statement that I just can’t help myself. So in Canada if you are overweight then you can forget about a knee or hip replacement. This would mean that in a short time you would be in a wheelchair because by the time you need the surgery it is bone on bone.
You have just made the best argument against nationalized healthcare anyone could make.
Unless you are healthy don’t expect treatment. If you get lung cancer and are or have been a smoker you’re out of luck.
If you have a diseased liver and have an occassional drink forget healthcare.
This was exactly the point of the lawsuit I posted. Doctors should be doctoring and the government should be governing not doctoring.
I hope those of you here are following what he just said. Who couldn’t save money if you only treat those who are healthy, in shape and good patients.
Hope you Hillarycare advocates fit in that category.
Another great success story for Nationalized/Socialized Health Coverage from Great Britain:
http://tinyurl.com/23mopy
Posted by: yitsme | December 18, 2007 at 12:29 PM
You can find these horror stories all over the internet. If you are healthy Hillarycare is for you. If not you had better hold on to your private insurance.
Ksgrm: Good god man, I give up. PS; Thanks for the new moniker “NN”,I like it!
When NN sleeps, he becomes ZZ.
NN swimming is 77.
Or sinking.
Well NN I don’t you could sell that pig in a poke you call healthcare to many people. Unfortunately some of us no matter how healthy lifestyles are eventually need medical care. If when my knees finally gave completely out and with the pain I was in – if the gatekeeper told me to develop a healthier lifestyle and call them when I did – I think I would have gone postal on them.
My son works with a Canadian in Virginia. They work for Micron. He asked him how he like the healthcare. He said it was great if you didn’t have a job. If you had a job the taxes kill you. He plans to go back when he retires and no longer has a job.
that is ‘don’t think you could’
It’s remarkable how strident so many people’s opinions are on this topic. I am a first-year KU medical student and part of an entirely student-run clinic that provides free health care to uninsured and low-income patients here in Kansas City. There is one in Wichita, too; they’re both called JayDoc. Before med school I worked for several years with low-income patients, HIV-positive patients, etc.
I had strong opinions too, until six months ago when I started medical school. I am by no means an authority – not remotely, but the one thing I (we) have learned already is this: there is no one answer that will fix our broken health care system (and it is broken). A market-based approach alone will not do it, and an entirely government-run approach will not work either. The solution is going to have to be some kind of hybrid that hasn’t been tried anywhere else. So, those of you committed to a market economy and those of you determined to see a single-payer system should probably both prepare to compromise, because the writing on the wall suggests that what we end up with is going to be something in between.
Either way, I would encourage everyone to volunteer at one of Wichita’s clinics that serve low-income, uninsured (or even underinsured) patients. So many people think they know all the answers, and everyone on this thread has lists and lists of facts and figures but the realities are so much more complicated.
Hey folksMia Culpa
I recommended a book, upthread, and had the name wrong.
I suggest you read “Internal Bleeding” by Wachter and Shojania, both MD’s.Great book on medical malpractice and possible reforms.
I called it “Terminal Bleeding} by mistake. My apologies.
Yes, lets get free universal healthcare. and I want Billary to run it. They can be co-czars. They can add to their already staggering wealth. I want them in charge, becuase based on the money the have earned in pubic office, they have turned it into hundreds of millions (kind of like turning 1000 in 100,000 in cattle futures). All under the table of course. Just think what they would do to Healthcare and the American people. Also, I want a healthcare system like they have in all the other socialist countries so we can suffer and then die before we get treatment. I’ll bet the ruling mass won’t have to wait for healthcare like I will. That will be great, won’t it?
Yes, lets get free universal healthcare. and I want Billary to run it. They can be co-czars. They can add to their already staggering wealth. I want them in charge, becuase based on the money the have earned in pubic office, they have turned it into hundreds of millions (kind of like turning 1000 in 100,000 in cattle futures). All under the table of course. Just think what they would do to Healthcare and the American people. Also, I want a healthcare system like they have in all the other socialist countries so we can suffer and then die before we get treatment. I’ll bet the ruling mass won’t have to wait for healthcare like I will. That will be great, won’t it?