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Impeach Sebelius and restore Kansas back too us, its people. Herbert West III, Publisher/Journalist/Opinionist.
THE BLOATED WHITE ELEPHANT DOWNTOWN ARENA IS A TAX GULPING ACCIDENT IN THE MAKING.
The list of problems continues to grow. At the same time, the list of pro-arena supporters who loudly bally-hooed it now continues to melt away as arena supporters leave town … leaving Wichita/Sedgwick County taxpayers holding the bag for this huge tax gulping monstrosity.
Many people have commented that the attorney general, whoever he was at the time, should have responded to the fact that virtually all pro-arena efforts were funded out of city and county tax funded income. With the recent revelations, we now know what these attorney generals were doing.
PROBLEMS WITH THE PROPOSED DOWNTOWN WHITE ELEPHANT DOWNTOWN SPORTS ARENA INCLUDE:
** Arena will create a 1/2 billion dollar drain on local tax funds over the next five years.
** It’s not only a white elephant, its an ugly white elephant.
** A dangerous white elephant — not designed for safety of patrons in dangerous Kansas storms.
** NO adjacent public parking so attendees could theoretically rush to their cars in a snow, rain or howling wind storm.
** Not even enough marked public parking for the physically disabled.
** No provision for the amount of loading/unloading vehicles needed for a big concert.
** Lack of access to trains on the adjacent railroad tracks in the event the arena facility is transformed to a holding facility in the event of disasters.
** Lack of “green” type benefits that have become so important. Top of this list would be savings of electricity and natural gas needed for heating and cooling when the building is not in use. These expenses will be massive and funded by local taxpayers of course.
** No primary tenant to pick up the tab for the on-going operational expenses such as maintenance, glass breakage, electrical power, natural gas, insurance, daily management staff, promotions, replacing floors depending on activity, securitiy, etc., etc. So taxpayers will have to pick up this tab into perpetuity.
** No downtown roadway system worthy of the name to permit ingress/egress to the facility.
** Lack of acoustics to support a real quality concert.
** Not designed to double as a convention center in case Century II melts down as some have predicted.
** Many other deficiencies on my list to numerous to itemize here.
Unfortunately, Sedgwick County has no political leadership worthy of the name who would stand up and debate the issues of the downtown arena with the tax-paying public who is left holding the bag.
The downtown arena was basically a flawed pipe dream that floated around in the brains of the few supporters before the public realized they were being duped.
AS WICHITA FAVORITE SON, EARL BROWDER, TWICE CANDIDATE FOR PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES … ON THE TICKET OF THE AMERICAN COMMUNIST PARTY … WOULD SAY, “FROM THE SWEAT STAINED BACKS OF THE MANY MIDDLE CLASS WICHITA CITIZENS … TO THE FEW WHO MAKE NO CONTRIBUTION BUT TRUCK THE MONEY TO THE BANK.”
Another excellent post by JWink. We should all listen to him.
But……..this arena is going to be built.
would someone please take the caps key away from jwink. we need to save him from his childish self.
Yes, Apophis, it will be built. However, when it bombs out I don’t want Ed Wolverton coming back and telling us we must save it.
Now, the aspect I would like to see examined would be all of the false representations made by the County about the budget. False Representations upon which voters justifiably relied. These include but are not limited to:
Parking
Loss Reserve
Infrastructure
Land acquisition cost
Construction cost
Total project cost
I have the listing of the representations made by the County. At least one big supporter of the Arena has told me I should burn it since they never meant it anyway. I am NOT going to do that; I plan to keep it to remind them of their blatant false representations.
Apophis: From what I know about you, I think you are on the wrong side of the arena issue. Call me sometime.
2008 will become the beginning of the eyeopener on the Arena project. It will be too early and the Pro Arena folks will point to its successes.
It will be the second, third and fourth years that will tell the tale.
It will about as useful as a submarine park in a desert and probably as expensive.
Kansas – agreed.
Arena would have a better chance if a destination resort / casino like with a golf course out near the airport were nearby (Ben sound familiar?) — but the downtown advocates blew up that ship — Sedgwick county should take some action to help get the eventual resort casino built at the Mulvane exit will help more than a casino in Wellington ….
ken – yep, sounds familiar. Of course, the downtown advocates believed that a downtown casino would save their Arena. Unfortunately for them; their arrogance sank their casino.
Good timing for the Community thread!
Ben,
I heard from Jim Schaus, WSU isn’t against playing in the downtown Arena occasionally. He said, they could lose money in concessions and IF they had to pay rental. He worried about WSU fans parking downtown.
SMG has to set it up that WSU won’t pay rental to host a small tournament there. Or the occasional game if some team wants to play a single game against WSU there.
It has to be financially incentive for WSU to do it. SMG invites business advertising to make it possible. SMG should try to put WSU or KSU small tournament on TV somewhere.
An SMG representative has continually heard about the problems in our Arena. It needs a Corporate Partner and should have increased capacity. SMG knows what events our Arena with 15,000 seats won’t get.
SMG is just learning about this town where SEE IT, BELIEVE IT happens.
Doubters like to use what we don’t see against the arena, like JWink is blathering about.
THANK GOODNESS JWINK, the Arena won’t be used for holding people during a disaster. Didn’t what happened in New Orleans tell cities not use Arena’s that way.
What’s the train have to do with Arena? Stay in reality dude! The rest of your ranting is trying to explain how HOK Sports can’t do their Arena design job!
They have a business reputation in things they construct!
I’ll believe in HOK more than you. Your unwilling to walk toward the Arena because it might be too unsafe.
Your fears about things outweigh reality in many ways.
It’s cold and snowy outside, so your suggesting the Arena won’t work. Streets won’t be cleared so people can park! Sidewalks dangerous to walk on!
Your claiming the City won’t do that job keeping streets and sidewalks clear.
It will be important to the City that Arena parking works well in the worse weather. Streets downtown cleared quickly as possible.
Mrage, I presume you are de facto spokesman for the dwindling pro-arena group. As usual with the pro-arena people, you can’t intellectually argue the merits of the arena civilly … so you resort to calling names, using words like “blathering”, resorting to flimsy arguments to make ridiculous points.
Unfortunately, as usual, you and the other pro-arena folks on the WE Blog have been universally wrong in your attempts to provide arguments for the white elephant downtown arena.
The only thing your group has going for you is construction of the arena appears to be going ahead like a snowball rolling down hill towards eventual disaster for Wichita and especially downtown Wichita … and incredibly your pro-arena people don’t care.
I assure you, I’m no amateur in matters regarding arenas and stadiums. Years ago, I signed off for every payment made to build the Kaufman baseball stadium and Arrowhead football stadium in Kansas City. A little later, in the 1970’s, as a commercial real estate broker in the K.C. area, I often visited with Ewing Kaufmann in our small commercial real estate development office. I also recall occasionally watching K.C. Chiefs’ football games from Lamar Hunt’s skybox with his entourage of Chief’s supporters.
I have talked to you at a couple Wichita EAGLE blogger meetups so I recall your wishes and dreams to actually do something with your life. However you are a long way from getting started. How old are you anyway?
Apparently in your school days, you either didn’t take economics or failed the course. That’s too bad because you don’t seem to understand the difference between business achievement and the “give-away” philosophy of socialism/communism.
Let me spell it out for you as simply as I can. “TAKE FROM THE MANY ACCORDING TO THEIR ABILITY. GIVE TO THE FEW ACCORDING TO THEIR NEEDS WHETHER OR NOT THEY DO ANYTHING TO EARN THEIR SHARE.”
According to your comments above, Mrage, you see absolutely nothing wrong with inviting WSU to play in the proposed downtown arena for “no rent.” Charge taxpayers some $300 to $500 million dollars for the new arena and then give it away to WSU basketball fans to draw them away from their own very successful arena.
Mrage, that’s very gracious of you and puts you squarely on my list of Wichita “Browderites.” As you might recall, Earl Browder was a Wichita boy who was raised in west Wichita but somehow went on to run for President of the United States twice on the ticket of the American Communist Party.
The points I listed in blog comments above against the proposed white elephant albatross downtown arena are valid arguments against the arena and need to be addressed.
But Wichita is like a headless horseman … no valid leadership on important community needs … only people like you trying to argue that $300 to $500 million is not to much to pay for the benefit and pleasure of a small group of sports fans — regardless that Wichita’s real needs are going unmet.
You and your pro-arena people should be ashamed of what you are doing to Wichita.
As I have said before … there is absolutely NO BUY-IN on the arena and most other City of Wichita and Sedgwick County projects.
I can’t predict the future and neither can you. So I guess we will have to let this play out to see who is correct … WE WHO THINK THIS ARENA IS A GIANT SCAM … OR PEOPLE LIKE YOU WHO DON’T SEE ANYTHING WRONG WITH WASTING HUGE AMOUNTS OF TAX MONEY FOR THE PERSONAL WANTS AND DREAMS OF THE FEW.
Whoa hang on a minute.
Now I was against the arena and remain so. And I am resolved to never attend an event there.
But my reasoning is precisely OPPOSITE of Jwink.
The arena is the playground of the wealthy built on the backs of the people. It has sky boxes for the rich and parking spaces for the priviledged.
Now you make the parking first come first serve and the entire facility general admission and I MIGHT consider re evaluating the arena.
I don’t feel….comforatable…in the same camp with Jwink.
Hey Jwink? Should only things that are profitable get public funding?
And can you show me how for profit institutions are inherently good?
A park makes no or little money. I call it eminently more valuable to a community than a strip mall or housing development.
JWink,
Complain to HOK sports. Easy for you to find them in KC right?
Kansas City Address300 WyandotteSuite 300Kansas City, MO 64105USA
Tel: +1 816 221 1500Fax: +1 816 221 1578Email: sport@hoksve.com
Tell them directly how ugly the Sedgwick County Arena is according to you. How they aren’t designing it easy access for equipment semi’s.
How the Arena will lack of acoustics for concerts.
How they didn’t design it to double as a Convention Center!
Tell them about Walmart going green and our Arena isn’t designed that way. Share that Walmart idea, it should go in the Downtown Arena site.
Designers in KC don’t know a damn thing about Kansas storms do they!
How unsafe the Arena will be with rain, hail, high winds and snow raging on patrons after they leave the building.
Plus crime. How unsafe downtown Wichita really is. More unsafe than KC?
Describe your fears, from where you live, walking to the Arena!
You describe irrational fears in the Arena that aren’t truly based in facts.
Now to settle your problems about “rent free WSU”.
SMG and Advertisers, if games on TV money, ESPN 2 or CSTV pay for them to play downtown.
WSU isn’t taking taxpayers money to play downtown like you describe. Business groups will pay so WSU or KSU can host a small tournaments downtown.
Playing downtown won’t take any home games from Koch Arena. Its added games to their schedule if they want that. WSU played in a Maui tournament. Why can’t they some year host a tournament here?
Wichita isn’t Maui, that’s for sure. But college teams do make money playing in tournaments and if its the right price, they will come to Wichita.
If the tournament has a group of RPI valuable teams.
Neither of us can see a Arena success or failure future, but I’m confident in my own.
I can say this about my projects, land negotiation’s won’t have the same surprises, like the County went through.
I haven’t been denied in discussions! Shouldn’t ideas be shot down early if the development is too crazy or costly?
I want more investor money spent, than tax payers.
I don’t want taxes raised to support anything I’m doing.
Advocating for the Arena is all I’m doing. The Arena itself will be busy as it can. SMG will market it best way possible.
You doubt SMG’s marketing jobs. They are managers of Century II as well. Tell them directly your disdain of their abilities.
http://www.smgworld.com
Why don’t you give up talking about the Arena until its built.
What’s the hate going to do for you until then? Walk among Wichitans being proud of this community best you can is my advice.
Rabble rousing hate for the Arena every election, go ahead, if that makes you happier.
Rousing up yourself about the Arena isn’t necessary or mentally healthy. Your damnation of the Arena changes nothing.
I can talk to potential advertisers to support Arena events. I’m being progressive about it. Doing something to help the Arena so it won’t fail.
Mrage: Let’s see if I can respond quickly to your blog comments above.
Yes, I’m a little hazy on this now but I believe the founders of HOK sports designers broke from Howard Needles Tammen and Bergendoff Engineers/Architects perhaps 15 or 20 years ago. Probably a connection to Burns and McDonnell Engineers also. Hope I’m correct here or I will hear from someone.
The address you gave at 300 Wyandotte is in Kansas City’s historic “River Quay” area, just south of the Missouri River. From that location, they should have a good view south towards the tall buildings of downtown Kansas City, Mo.; west across the intersection of the Missouri and Kansas Rivers towards Strawberry Hill and the Kansas City, Kansas skyline; perhaps towards the old seven story Holiday Inn once owned by my associates on the west end of the intercity viaduct; and east towards the old Italian “north end” neighborhood, home of K.C. crime boss, Johnny Lazia, until he was machine gunned in the driveway of the Park Central hotel on Armour Boulevard in about 1933.
Yes, I should be able to find their offices!
Thank you for listing some of my many concerns regarding the design of the super expensive, unwanted, unneeded downtown white elephant arena. If the county commissioners and out-of-town pro-arena supporters had invited ordinary taxpayers and residents of the neighborhood to honestly give input — perhaps some of these rediculous problems would have been avoided.
Mrage, your attitude towards spending or giving away publlc taxes from the many, to the few, tells me your leanings towards socialism or what I call “Wichita Browderism.” Don’t know if you are a card-carrying member. But we will have to agree to disagree on the proposed $300,000,000.13 albatross downtown arena.
Mrage:
“they (WSU) could lose money in concessions and IF they had to pay rental. He worried about WSU fans parking downtown.
SMG has to set it up that WSU won’t pay rental to host a small tournament there.”
So, we taxpayers get to subsidize it – JUST LIKE I SAID BEFORE!
Mrage – you have acknowledged that you are SELFISH and want us taxpayers to pay for your entertainment. I thanked for for admitting that.
“Complain to HOK sports. Easy for you to find them in KC right?”
Why mrage? What is the point? To tell them to make a silk purse from that sow’s ear?
“SMG and Advertisers, if games on TV money, ESPN 2 or CSTV pay for them (WSU) to play downtown.
WSU isn’t taking taxpayers money to play downtown like you describe. Business groups will pay so WSU or KSU can host a small tournaments downtown.”
HA! Are these the same mythological “corporates” you keep telling us will pay to make it 18,000 seats? HAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!
“I don’t want taxes raised to support anything I’m doing.”
LIE! You already admittied that you do, because you are selfish that way. Remember?
“
Mrage: You are right and I forgot to add it to my “white elephant arena list.” That is, a proposed use for the arena site once it is safely cleared of buildings and poisonous chemical pollution under the surface.
That is — sell to Wal-Mart for a super warehouse distribution center and W-Mart outlet store there in the middle of the Wichita metro area. It would have adjacent railroad access plus interstate highway access. Plus nearby residential loft apartments for Wal-Mart employees. Some employees and customers might even wonder over to Old Town for a beer/hamburger and movie after work.
This would be a quadruple play in baseball parlance.
Use the proposed arena site for a beneficial purpose.
Change the face of that part of downtown.
Use the equivalent sales tax funds saved for necessary and real needs of Wichita and Sedgwick County.
Convene a citizens roundtable of 1000 to determine a logical priority for the funds to really rejuvenate downtown Wichita and Sedgwick County.
The arena project conveniently forgot the Sedgwick County communities such as Haysville, Goddard, Derby, Park City, Valley Center, etc. that are helping to pay for the white elephant downtown sports arena. So give them some help.
And if hold-over county commissioners, UNRUH, NORTON AND WINTERS don’t like these ideas … they need to resign and get out of the way.
JWink,
You need to play with software called SIMS..build the Wichita scenery the way you want and make those Walmart employees live near it in the trendy, expensive lofts.
http://simcitysocieties.ea.com/about.php?languageCode=1
Create that new Convention Center you want with a Wyatt Earp facade.
Don’t forget to put a bowling alley by the River with all the bells and whistles.
Seriously, you have a grasp of historical KC and Wichita knowledge, but your messing those past thoughts up with civic improvement ideas today.
You couldn’t go to KC and say Chiefs or KC stadiums are White Elephants because those teams rarely ever win Championships.
Taxes continually get raised in KC to pay for stadium upgrades. People say Yes. Billionaire owners taking it from the People and ticket prices keep being raised!
You come here, living in Wichita again, then bitch about our simple improving the Colesium. You wasted breath and hours talking about a re-vote process.
Coliseum is in the wrong location and its poor comparison to new Arena’s constructed in other communities.
You call it an historical structure!
We are losing event business!
We’re improving slowly, not crazily either. The downtown Arena has questions, but its not a PROBLEM in this community.
The key problem is our Colesium. The County held on too long with it. It’s expensive now when in past years the Arena could have cost less. We couldn’t wait anymore, cost are rising.
I hate being ripped off like you, I don’t feel that at this point with the Arena.
In the original vote, I thought it too low $184 Million to build the Arena we need.
Taxes alone are constructing the Arena but I’m hoping corporates partner with it.
Look at corporates involved with other cities Arena’s.
County was very slow to hire SMG to manage the facility but they should have been guiding it from the beginning.
Wichita had to always imagine what events the Arena could put on. We still haven’t heard what events SMG is going to create in the Arena. I trust their ability to create events Wichitans will enjoy.
Or they will be fired someday!
“Taxes alone are constructing the Arena but I’m hoping corporates partner with it.
Look at corporates involved with other cities Arena’s.”
Are those the same fictitious corporates you claim will sponsor WSU games downtown?
HAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!!
“Or they will be fired someday!”
And then what?
Ben,
Your not running for Mayor in the future? Nor the City Council, not on the County Commission.
That’s what you can do to change Wichita’s Arena fate or sit on the sidelines and cackle like your doing hoping for the demise of the place.
Advertisers put WSU on KWCH every season, they will get an opportunity to help WSU be rent free on a cable broadcast.
Since business wants to promote themselves, there is the advertising possibility to a wider audience.
For the longest time, you kept suggesting WSU wouldn’t play in the downtown Arena.
If WSU finds it financially reasonable to put on a small tournament they will in the Arena.
SMG has to make it financially reasonable for WSU and that’s they job they do nationally.
That’s their job they do nationally.
“For the longest time, you kept suggesting WSU wouldn’t play in the downtown Arena.”
I said they will not do so without a big subsidy. You have now acknowledged the same thing.
“SMG has to make it financially reasonable for WSU”
In other words, a subsidy.
Mrage – for the longest time you called me a liar when I said your Arena is only 15,000 seats. Remember? How many seats are there Mrage? The 17,000 you claimed? Or 15,000?
How would playing in your Arena give WSU a larger TV market? Viewers LIKE the Roundhouse!