Outgoing City Manager George Kolb was badly overstating the case in telling The Eagle that “if we don’t do something with Century II, it won’t be here in 10 to 15 years.†Obviously, the city-owned performing arts and convention center is not about to skip town or turn to dust. But Kolb’s point about the need to address Century II’s condition and future use is well-taken. On the first issue, the City Council would take a necessary step today by approving $1.3 million in spending on Century II’s heating and cooling systems and a new Expo Hall roof (including $249,000 in insurance money). But Wichita also needs a much-bigger debate about what it wants Century II to be. As either a performing arts showplace or a convention magnet, it’s falling short — an issue separate from the downtown arena, which has a different job to do.
Posted by Rhonda Holman
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48 Comments
Century II is functionally obsolete and aged to the point where maintanance and upkeep will begin to cost alot. It should be torn down and replaced with a new arts center/orchestra hall.
Rhonda: You say the “downtown arena has a different job to do.” Pray tell … what is that job? It has no viable tenant, just wishes and dreams of a few, so no clue there. The downtown arena is a super expensive “bridge to no where” … unwanted, unneeded by a huge majority of Wichita/Sedgwick County voters and taxpayers.
As far as I can tell only a few arena supporters remain … composed of those who will gain financially or gain some perceived “influence” in a political position.
THE WHITE ELEPHANT DOWNTOWN ARENA NEEDS TO BE HALTED NOW BEFORE IT CONTINUES TO WASTE HUGE AMOUNTS OF TAXES … TAX MONEY WHICH COULD HAVE BEEN USED TO ACCOMPLISH THE REAL IMPORTANT NEEDS OF WICHITA/SEDGWICK COUNTY.
The money being wasted on the arena could have done great thing for Century II. Nope couldn’t do that.
SO what we will have is one old, deteriorating mostly empty building and one brand new mostly empty useless building.
Better to have two useless buildings than more grassy area to mow. Don’t understand how people vote to build more convention centers when no conventions come to town. With the magnificant new casino being built will give a lot of space for meetings and drinking. I don’t think Wichita should receive a share of the take from the new casino as they voted against it. Something how people are against something but will want a part of some other counties business. Sumner county wanted it and Wichita didn’t why share the take? Wichita shouldn’t have it both ways.
Holman is correct that we need a thorough discussion about C-II and its role in the community. We will have the casino and the arena in the area – what roles might they (especially the casino complex) fill? Commonly such complexes can serve as convention centers.
C-II is actually TWO major venues – The performing arts in the ’round building’ and conventions in Expo hall. I seems that the convention part might go south but that the arts remain downtown. Of course, if that happens then what happens to the Hyatt?
A major short-coming here in Wichita has been a lack of coordination among various groups and venues. During the casimo debate we never got any sort of picture of what might develop – that is a major part of why it lost. The Arena stands alone and, quite frankly, I don’t know just what it will be used for. I keep hearing that KU might play a game there once a year (on their way to Oklahoma) but see to support for that. Matbe WSU will play a game there – but again ?
Design of the Arena does not seem to be very convention-friendly; also it is not amenable to the performing arts. I am told it will be good for ‘head-banger’ concerts and that is all that matters.
So not C-II comes to the fore. I hope that it or a replacement can continue to support the arts. These events enjoy tremendous public/private support. Perhaps the arts community can find a way to raise capital to at least pay for a portion of renovation/replacement. Such support can go a long way toward building broader support.
Wichita property tax payers step right up!
Do we have a deal for you!
Century II operates as a loss leader for you the tax payer. As such, it acts as a giant black hole, centered in such a place as to slowly suck the money out of every funding source that comes within it’s huge gravitational pull.
It is our leaders wishing well, they keep throwing our money into it, and make a wish that it will change from a loss leader, to in fact operating with a profit.
But that is only a wish, a fairy tale. There wishing well is truly the taxpayers money pit. We just keep on keeping on, throwing our money into it. Still waiting for a cost-benefit analysis. That would make the reality of the situation apparent to all.
Annual operating expenses and renovation will never equal a return to the taxpayer. Now sing the song of it brining revenue into the community.
Violins playing. But here comes the drum beat: The amount of revenue from events will not equal the dollars the taxpayer sinks into it.
Maybe area businesses reap a return – but not the taxpayer.
“….casimo debate we never got any sort of picture of what might develop -……”
Ben
We (you and I) discussed some of this here —- the only options that were being touted were a downtown riverfront casino and a Park City location. Any ideas beyond those were routinely dismissed. Our ideas of a west wichita location for a resort type destination casino were laughed at as unfeasible —- funny how Sumner county likes the idea —– well it was that narrowmindedness of the casino promoters that doomed them —– well that and Randy Brown’s TV appearance at the debate (a joke in a loud Hawaiin shirt)
…. I’m sure there is a need for insurance on the C2 roof repairs but 20% of the total cost seems more than a little excessive — wonder what is being insured and who is providing the insurance ?
ken – I think that might be a reference to an insurance settlement that will pay a portion of the cost.
Gosh… the naysayers apparently stay at home watching Bill O, instead of partaking in then richness of culture presented at Century II.
Near full houses for Music Theatre shows in the summer… Symphony, Ballet, Opera, Children’s Theatre.. on and on. I have enjoyed everything from Pavarotti to Bob Dylan to David Copperfield at Century II. Ever been to the garden show int eh spring? All magical and valuable parts of a rich cityscape.
Century II is by no means an empty useless building. What may be empty is some people’s capacity to understand and appreciate the arts… Well, can’t miss the Hour of Hate on Fox ……
Well David B. you need to thank the taxpayers for subsidizing your entertainment!
Naysayers? Because I voice an opinion counter to yours? Because I DARE speak out when I disagree with how you freely spend our tax dollars?
I never said the place didn’t put on good amature shows. I just said it was a waste of taxpayers money. Throwing good after bad.
Enjoy the show!
Imagine what that ticket would cost you if YOU were paying for it.
ANK – C-II has been operating at break-even with the numerous sell-outs noted by David. Also, that constant stream of people into downtown looking for dinner etc has an indirect impact.
1500 people 100 times has a much greater economic impact than 15,000 people 10 times.
Meanwhile, over at WaterWalk:
Gander Mountain Shares Fall on Downgrade
Gander Mountain Shares Fall As Analyst Says Weak Sales Will Disrupt Hope for a Turnaround
http://money.cnn.com/news/newsfeeds/articles/apwire/0de5ab2e7439f4ee3ec08517a1572efd.htm
@ AN Keny-
Century II was never intended to bring a “return” to the “taxpayers” in the form of a continuous excess of revenue over expenses. I don’t think anyone intended for it to lose vast sums (and it hasn’t) either.
The real reason Century II is in the physical mess it’s in is because the City Commission (years ago) diverted the tax money the facility was supposed to receive. The “Transient Guest Tax” (or hotel/motel ‘bed’ tax) was to make up any operations shortfalls and pay for long-term capital improvements to the facility. Instead, the City has chosen to funnel those tax dollars into convention and tourism promotion (via quasi-private agencies) and left C2 to decay.
The vast sums of money that will be needed to bring Century II into the current decade could have been spent incrementally, but city governance chose to be penny-wise but pound-foolish.
FWIW, staffing is about 1/3 of what it used to be. Clients sometimes complain about lack of staff responsiveness, but where there are only 4 or 5 people working a nearly 24 acre site with multiple events taking place, well…. it is what it is.
There are several clients that aren’t returning after the experation of their contracts. Their complaints center on Hyatt… the cost of catering, problems with meeting space setups, and a sales staff that consistently over-sells the capabilities of the hotel and it’s staff. Century II has nothing to do with that, but it loses when the Hyatt pisses off clients.
Century II is not without it’s own problems. It lacks the technical ammenities necessary for corporate presentations and meetings; the acoustics are terrible in all auditoriums (even Concert Hall, unless you only listen to the WSO). The wholesale gutting of the administrative staff under Mr. Kolb’s tenure hasn’t resulted in improvements, in fact it’s made for a sales staff that doesn’t know how to sell what ammenities and features the place has or worse, over-sells in a way that leads to client unhappiness like the Hyatt does.
Century II Performing Arts and Convention Center used to be the crown jewel downtown. It’s time to consider what we want the next jewel to be… how it functions, who uses it, what it might look like. In the long term, Century II is due for replacement; it was new and exciting 40 years ago. Some of the design concepts have proven unsuitable for a facility that gets used as Century II does. We can do better, and should… because our citizens, busineses, performing arts and civic organizations deserve the quality of life such a facility can foster.
Mr. Keny, your anger is misplaced. You should be unhappy that your elected officials diverted tax money *paid by other people* away from this facility.
Thanks for playing!
LTB (Lions, Tigers, & Bears)
LTB and Ben, I’m sorry. I thought I read in Ms Holman’s opening thread, “But Wichita also needs a much-bigger debate about what it wants Century II to be.”
I apologize. I didn’t realize it was to be a one-sided debate. No room for a lowly taxpayer here who has supported all the hairbrain ideas for a lifetime.
Sorry for posting. I’ll stop posting opinions contrary to your view. There are no room for them.
PS: I am not angry. I am not Mr. anybody.
Say Ben, you have the financials on C-II to show they have been in the black?
Is this public info?
Would love to see an income statement.
LTB – THANKS!
It is good to hear from someone who has ‘been there done that’
I have to admit that I am pretty much clueless as to what has to be done to present me with an enjoyable Music Theater performance. All I know is that they do a good job of it. However, I agree with you that the acoustics leave a bit to be desired.
Alex – I don’t have them but have seen them. They were posted here as a link some time ago.
ANK – I too am a lowly taxpayer.
No Ben does not have anything to back up his statement. His statement in this debate is not true.
The 2007-2008 Adopted city budget is available under the Open Meetings Act. Total funding under the Century II line is $2,222,990. There are other lines on the budget which go to the operation, for instance, some of the funds hidden under the general category: Arts and Cultural Programs/City Manager covers another 2.2 million. But costs in manpower, staff hours by city hall employees and shared services are not so easily broken out.
But under Volume I: Quality of Life programs, the budget states:
“the revenues of these two systems “partially” offset the operation costs of running the program.” (unquote)
http://www.wichita.gov/NR/rdonlyres/3D4DFA49-F340-44B4-A37E-6F6789304496/0/09QualityofLife.pdf
Again, my statements stand: This is a blackhole when it comes to the taxpayer.
ANK – C-II has been operating at break-even with the numerous sell-outs noted by David. Posted by: Ben
Ben, facts are best when you want to have a legitimate debate on an issue. It gets very confusing and argumentative when people start throwing out “what they think” instead of factual information.
If you want to continue, you will either provide information contrary to the published City Budget, or clarify your above comment so a true and honest debate can continue.
Do the right thing.
OK – according to the city figure it has been 50% at one facility and 88% at Expo. Some time ago I had seen a higher %; that might have been some sort of combination.
Since I work for a living I am limited in the amount of time I can devote to computer searches.
As a taxpayer I know I would rather see something like this than the BIG black holes – the Arena and Water walk.
A.N., if I read the link, it appears the city budget for Century II is $2.2 million and cost recovery is around 48%.
So the net taxpayer subsidy for this corporate welfare project is around $1,144,000 PER YEAR!
Since this is a public funded project, it would be nice to see a complete income statement for Century II operations.
Is that available or is the city hiding this?
I walked through Pratt’s great Municipal Building this morning. As a boy, I remember attending a business/community ham and bean feed with my father probably in 1948 or so and shaking hands there with Bob Hope or Jack Benny … can’t recall which. I also joined a “Golden Gloves” boxing club there back in about 1950 but must have quit for lack of time.
My point here is Pratt’s Municipal Building is in pristine condition after about 80 years of use. It was built in 1929 just as the Great Depression was about to begin. The City of Pratt has maintained the building in fine condition.
It contains a large convention floor, a fire station, public restrooms, a large kitchen for dinners, a jail no longer used, and a couple apartments formerly used by the fire department.
The floor shown like a well polished mirror just like I remember it from the 1940’s.
Shows what good care can do.
As a taxpayer I know I would rather see something like this than the BIG black holes – the Arena and Water walk.
Posted by: Ben
And Ben, I can work with that. It is great to hear you express your feelings or rather opinion.
Just as long as you do not try to slant the facts, to support your opinion.
Alex hit it on the head on the numbers. Thanks for taking the time to look at the link I provided!
And my opinion, remains the same.You can thank all the other taxpayers for your subsidized enjoyment.
The rest of us? We got screwed without even a kiss.
Is anyone else aware that perhaps the most famous Wurlitzer Theater Organ in the world is housed at CII and concerts are performed on it regularly?
Everybody subsidizes things. I subsidize air fares to destinations I don’t fly to. I subsidize swimming pools I don’t use. That’s the way it is.
That said, we definitely SHOULD examine ALL venues. And, in the case of something like C-II I would look to things like the bed tax since this presumably benefits the hotels.
For the Arena I suggested a benefit district be formed based on the bar district as I had been told that the reason for the downtown location was to benefit Old Town. Needless to say that was NOT well received.
For all of these I think they also should be selling memberships – much as they do at the Zoo. This can also be a source of revenue.
brian – isn’t there also a huge organ at WSU that they use for Vespers?
“For the Arena I suggested a benefit district be formed based on the bar district as I had been told that the reason for the downtown location was to benefit Old Town. Needless to say that was NOT well received.” Ben
Ben, now that we have the budget, and we know the property tax annual contribution is around $1,144,000 (verify), maybe you would gain more support for finding other revenue sources to support the operation?I agree with you: Everyone bragging about this, throws out numbers of alllll the commerce attendees are generating downtown. So if the downtown businesses are gaining – why are they not returning some of that gain, to suppor an operation that greatly contributes to their going concern?
What about the budget for the Wichita Downtown Development Corporation? It was paid for by a special taxing district drawn around downtown.
Now that Ed Wolverton is apparently gone from Wichita and City Manager Kolb will soon be leaving, perhaps their tax paid salaries/office expenses not paid out of the arena sales taxes could be put into a special sinking fund to offset future operational losses for the downtown arena.
Wichita/Sedgwick county taxpayers, most of whom don’t want this ugly and dangerous monstrosity, shouldn’t have to pick up the tab for the future losses.
JWink – there is supposed to be a $23,611,000 reserve for losses built into the $184,528,000 total Arena budget.
The City of Wichita’s 2008 proposed budget is $495.62 million and this is an increase of over $100 million from the 2006’s $390.1 million. City spending is soaring with a two-year increase of 27 percent and an increase over last year’s revised budget of slightly less than 15 percent. There are a large number of new spending proposals pending at city hall too including $24.5 million for the county’s arena project and $290 million to remodel Century II in a few years.
http://wichitaliberty.org/
Say, A.N., if this is true, there’s more for taxpayers to worry about then $1.2 million in expenses ever year!
15% annual increases in the cities overall budget every year AND $290 MILLION to renovate Century II.
Wichita is going to spend $290 MILLION to renovate a business that loses $1.2 MILLION per year?
Instead of spending $290 MILLION on a losing proposition, why not just give $829 to every man, woman, and child in Wichita and the citizens can spend that on entertainment at the business of their choice?
The taxpayers are not choosing Century II now, or it would be making a profit.
You know they have 22 people working there at Century II making an avg salary of $38,000 each?
Not bad, for a business floating in red ink.
Good thing they get corporate welfare or they would be out of business.
How many other losing propositions contribute to a 15% annual increase in a city budget?
Somebody getting their pockets lined with taxpayers money?
“Maybe area businesses reap a return – but not the taxpayer.”Posted by: A.N. Keny | December 04, 2007 at 09:44 AM
This is just a bad understanding of economics. If businesses don’t get business then the local taxpayer doesn’t have anywhere to work at. I attend the Kansas Music Educators Association conference anually. Thousands of people staying at our hotels, eating at our resturants, building our city economy. That is what keeps a city alive.
“I never said the place didn’t put on good amature shows. I just said it was a waste of taxpayers money. Throwing good after bad.”Posted by: A.N. Keny | December
This is just pure ignorance in general. The Wichita Symphony is a world class organanization that performs on a professional level, bringing in musicians from around the world. Not only does those bring culture, education and life to our fair city (which is worth a couple bucks from the tax payers, thank you very much), but it reaps benefits on many other fronts. Students are attracted to WSU because of the symphony to be music students, which keeps our college alive. The house is almost always packed for these performances.
If you stop supporting century two and the arts, our city is doomed for the dust heap of history, and the fault will lie on ignorant fools like A.N. Kenney for destroying our city.
Alex, I’m confused a bit here. How is a city owned and operated facility a business?
A.N. Keny, if I’m reading you right, you have a stand against using public money for Century II. Is this because you perceive it as not directly benefiting you?
The issue to me is whether having a “convention center” which also hosts the Wichita Symphony, Music Theater, various other civic activities, as well as conventions, for which at least some of the organizations pay rent to the best of my knowledge, is of benefit to the city as a whole. From my reading of your posts, I speculate the answer is no.
I suspect the two of you would not find a privately funded facility objectionable, thus my speculation as outlined above.
I further speculate that you object to the subsidization of low fare airlines, funding of parks. etc., as the same (the subsidization of airlines and funding of parks) do not make money directly for the city.
My philosophical bias on this is different from yours. I lament the fact that the “bed tax” wasn’t used for the purposes intended, so that there would not be a $290 million budget item. That happened, and now the piper must be paid, if it is desired to have a facility to host conventions, and a place where “cultural” events may be held. I believe having such a facility to be of value to a city, and worth supporting through taxes, etc., as the existence of such places, with the cultural events necessary, IMHO, to attracting and retaining young professionals, bettering the city. Does this directly benefit me? No, not directly.
Sorry to wander. I’ll be interested in your thoughts.
jb – I would add that Music Theater and Grand Opera are fully professional and are well-respected nationally.
Tickets are not cheap but the prices are reasonable. Fortunately for us the performances are very heavily subsidized by contributiosn from people and companies in the region. They are acknowledged in the programs.
Agreed, Ben, I was just using the example that I am the most familiar wth.
If you really love the arts and live music then you should want to build a decent hall for them. We just opened our new one here in Cobb Georgia and has already attracted new business to the area it is located. Wichita should implode Century II. It is damn near 50 years old and times ain’t gonna get any better for it. Build new and separate centers for the arts and exhibitions. It was a dumb idea to house those in the same building anyway. Our new Arts Centre just opened this month and we love it!http://www.ajc.com/metro/content/metro/cobb/stories/2007/09/15/cobbgala_0916.html
“”"There are a large number of new spending proposals pending at city hall too including $24.5 million for the county’s arena project and $290 million to remodel Century II in a few years.”"”
For that kind of money Wichita could build a FIRST class Arts Center and probably have plenty left over for exhibition space in a new building. Our new Arts Centre here in Cobb Georgia cost $145 million and everybody says it is one of the best.
Agreed kav. I would add that there is absolutely no reason for the $24.5 million for the Arena since everything was supposed to be included in the $184.5 million.
A comment about C-II – it is more than an arts center but also our convention center. However, with the casino coming I wonder if we still need that part.
I’m sorry, but I don’t think that conventions are going to Sumner county just because their is a Casino. Not all conventions revolve around gambling. In think most would rather be in a larger city with more amenities, and the century 11 complex has always seemed like a comfortable location for the conventions I have been to. The multiple performance halls connected to the hyatt, with it’s rooms, along with the Broadview across the street make it an excellent location. Particularily for music conventions. I think that the stage at century two could be larger, but it is a descent hall (not so great accousitics I must confess, having performed there).
I have to say that I come at this from a instrumental music person’s standpoint, but our Music convention is one of the best in the midwest, and I think part of that is due to the excellent facilities. I think that they deserve to be preserved. Plus being a younger Wichitan, Century II is part of the landscape of the city for me. I would be dissapointed if it was destroyed.
Regarding Wichita’s Century II and its attached Exhibition Hall … outwardly they seem to be functional for what they were designed for. With a great location near the Arkansas River.
But now suddenly, the public is being told these buildings are in great need of replacement. What is going on here?
The public deserves much more explanation of what their short comings are as expressed by outgoing city manager, George Kolb. Why didn’t he mention this when he was the highly paid Wichita city manager?
Is the roof safe? Long-span roofs must be inspected just like concrete/steel bridges and viaducts. Those beams, trusses, vertical columns are subject to weathering and aging just like all concrete and steel structures. Is Century II cantilevered or arched? I don’t know.
Are the vertical walls shifting from the weight of the roof?
Or is the problems from rumored asbestos installed in the original construction back in the 1960’s? Some say don’t disturb asbestos and it won’t disturb you. I don’t know … I presume an asbestos expert should examine the building.
I do know the vertical columns around the periphery of Century II carry the storm water off the roof into a drainage system running DIRECTLY INTO THE ARKANSAS RIVER. This riverside location saved millions of dollars that is now being spent for the massive 5′ X 8′ reinforced concrete box culvert being installed across downtown Wichita to drain storm water from the proposed white elephant arena to the Arkansas River.
In regard to the pretty pictures of the potential Sumner County gambling casinos that appeared in the Wichita EAGLE?
Those are merely “architects’ renderings.” They cost casino developers a few hundred dollars. At this point, they have no relationship to what will be built … only a glorified presentation to WOW the public.
A few companies specialize in preparing architects’ renderings. They can make a steel pole barn look like the second coming … bathed in sunlight, stick trees, lots of stick people, tall buildings, water fountains, etc.
In truth, the glorified architects rendering is the only expenditure other than attorneys fees so far by the various companies proposing to build gambling casinos in Sumner County.
“So beware the ides of March.”
Or the dreaded white elephant arena Music Man cometh again, this time to Sumner County.
Let’s cut this discussion. Here’s the deal: YOu think the Century II is a GREAT deal for the taxpayer. And if it is a GREAT idea to continue to sink hundreds of millions of dollars into it:
Great. Let’s put it to the vote of the people.
Ballot Question: Should the city/county/state continue funding Century II?
If it can’t go to the voters for a vote, then it is NOT a great idea. It does NOT have the confidence of the voters, taxpayers, or citizens.
It’s time people. Let’s really get this “debate” going. Either put up or shut up.
Or continue to spread lies about the operation.
If it is so great – supporters should not be AFRAID to let the citizens vote on continued spending.
Ok, so the debate has gone from Century II being self-suficient, to losing $1.2 Million per year, but that’s ok.
Talk has a valid point – supporters should be able to kake a case. We should have a series of votes on the question – and if it can pass once the others don’t count.
Unfortunately I would guess at this point that it might suffer the same fate as the casino. Distrust of those who sold us the Arena runs wide and deep. The $300 million that will cost us doesn’t leave much for anything else.
If I WERE doing such a campaign I would seek to raise as much private money committments FIRST. Sell naming – including portions of the facility. Sell various sorts of sponsorships. The arts, unlike the arena, HAVE been successful at raising money in this fashion. For this project it would have to be a rather large capital campaign. The Zoo has also been successful in getting me to get my checkbook out.
In some ways this would be similar to what I proposed to Mgare and Blasi for the WSU football desire. Show a significant demand first; then we move forward.
Kitrell, you will find that the closer the purse is to the local voter, the less ideology is involved. People get concerned when Politicians stick their hands in their personal “local goodie bag.” :)
Very true kansas. Another example of that is that this “leftie” supports some spending (C-II and Zoo for example) but opposes others (notable the Arena). And, I support the ones I support directly with my own money as well as indirectly via my taxes.
You know for a death threatening, murderous and flaming troll – you sure have some pretty good insight sometime!
Posted by: Kitrell | December 05, 2007 at 10:22 AM
I’m like that familiar billboard just outside of town along the highway. Sometimes annoying, sometimes you wish it would go away and sometimes you welcome seeing it as it means you are getting closer to your home. :)
To be frank – I only find you annoying when you bother responding to the hate mail you get.
Having been reading since April 07, you have nothing to prove or refute any longer. Everyone who has been reading, have read it all before.
It has clearly gotten to the point that they just sound petty and belittle themselves by rehashing it all.
In other words, regardless of what they post – no one reads or believes anymore. No one in my opinion.
The score is Kansas 1 crybabies 0.
And then YOU let them make you mad. They don’t make you mad. You LET them make you mad. Self discipline/control
And you have it all when you count to ten before replying. And refrain.
Quite an astute observation Kitrell and I will keep your observation in mind. I will try to practice what you have observed.
Yes, I get my buttons pushed often and hard by some on this blog. I react with silliness and equally bad behavior sometimes when I should just ignore them.
Good advice and excellent observation Kitrell. :)
kansas – I will add that there have been some threads (the one on pit bulls comes to mind) where I did not respond because the entire thread had degenerated into “so’s your mama!” stuff – from both sides of whatever it was.
Bummer is that I would like to engage Hank in a discussion of that issue – and the extent of any threat from him is that mean spatula he wields!
;^)
I’ll bet Ben’s sentiment is felt by many regular bloggers from all sides. Some of the more vocal ones have finally gotten tired of it and have responded to the attackers too.
I dish it out and have to take it, but I’m not able to post as frequently. But they have reserved their gangbang for you Kansas.
I don’t know how you maintain.