The Christmas season illuminated the jarring contrast between the public piety of some conservative Christians and their intense anger toward illegal immigrants, noted Atlanta Journal-Constitution columnist Cynthia Tucker. “After all,†she wrote, “the Bible, which conservative Christians hold out as the inerrant word of God, includes several admonitions to practice kindness toward ‘strangers.’â€
Robert Parham, executive director of the Baptist Center for Ethics, said: “We welcome the stranger because the Savior himself was not welcomed in mainstream society. The whole teaching of ‘no room in the inn’ was about someone poor and marginalized and pushed off to a stable.â€
Posted by Kristin Mehler
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150 Comments
And, in the year that Christ was born, the population did not have to labor to support welfare benefits, health care benefits and other things to the immigrants, either.
The “social safety net” that we built, for our own citizens, can not take the strain of anyone who can not contribute.
The “boomers” will start to retire, next year. We need to replace a LARGE segment of the labor force. We have EVERY right, to insist that everyone who comes here wants to be a citizen, learns English, and obeys the law.
I am a “moderate” on immigration. I often find myself angry at both sides, or at least, the radicals on both sides.
It is radical to think that we can care for the whole world, and take in everyone that crosses the border, legal or illegal. The theme of this thread opens on a very radical “open borders” agenda. Such a policy will destroy this country.
Mexico has MUCH tighter controls on who can enter Mexico, and on what they can do, once they get into Mexico:
http://www.citizensforaconstitutionalrepublic.com/waller5-8-06.html
Why do you keep posting this type of garbage about Christians?
I am a Conservative Christian. I am friends with hundreds of Conservative Christians.
No one I know has any anger at all, let alone intense anger, toward illegal immigrants.
I simply don’t support ILLEGALLY coming into the country.
Yes, as a Christian, I am supposed to welcome people. Not ILLEGALLY welcome them.
Why is it so hard for people to grasp that little word there: ILLEGAL.
What a great thread to follow Christmas with… NOT
You know things are really bad when you see the Christians advocating even the denial of an education to the Mexican kids who were not asked if they wanted to come here or not. But why should we be surprised- these are the same folks that brought us wonderful things like slavery and segregation and The Crusades. Happy Christmas Christians! (or should I say “happy holidays” just to piss them off)
I’m a Christian who’s not particularly conservative and I agree with Nathan.
It’s not about my religious views, it’s about my country being overwhelmed by a flood of illegal aliens who don’t care about anything this country has to offer except the money and benefits. Most of these “people” aren’t interested in integrating into our society; they remain large enclaves of foreigners in our midst. This is not a healthy situation. How can we talk about security when we allow a tidal wave of the undocumented into this country?
This isn’t immigration, it’s an invasion.
And Kristin, nice hatchet job on Christians.
Happy Christmas Christians! (or should I say “happy holidays” just to piss them off)
Posted by: Kev | December 26, 2007 at 05:55 AM
And now we’ll spent the rest of the day listening to the Haters.
So are we, in the name of Jesus, to throw open the borders and watch our nation drowned under the tidal wave of illegal aliens?
I’ve got a radical idea: let’s defend OUR country, and secure it for OUR people’s future. No one is going to do it for us.
All that “room at the inn” tripe is utterly unconvincing, and i might add that it does not apply to our current situation any more than the science and medicine of 1st Century Judea do.
The poor illegals don’t have a good life in their own country, so the libs advocate letting them come here and be taken care of.
Great. Let’s let ALL 3.2 BILLION people in the world come to the US illegally and live off welfare. How are you going to pay for that, libs?
It ain’t a matter of religion, it is a matter of practicality and survival. This country cannot care for the impoverished people of the entire world.
Just where does the Bible say that Joseph and Mary were so desperately poor? They wouldn’t have been looking for a room if they had no money for one! There simply was no room available anywhere.
Of course, they were also not breaking any laws with their trip. They were not asking the local citizens to pay for the education of Jesus and his half-siblings. They didn’t expect “in-state tuition” for their kids in Egypt. They didn’t forge IDs to avoid paying taxes to Rome. In truth, there is no comparison in any way to the flood of illegals who demand that we grant them privileges even their country of origin does not grant.
Beyond that, there are the simple facts that the flood of illegals cause huge environmental damage to some of our southern state and federal parks. They add to the environmental burden of our country.
They also create great havoc among LEGAL immigrants, who are finding it harder and harder to enter our country due to overcrowding by ILLEGALS. They make it harder for our teens and young adults to enter the work force. They cost our businesses, even non-profit businesses, billions of dollars every year in translation costs. And they continually demand more, driving privileges, voting privileges, in-state tuition, Spanish-print everything, Spanish-speaking teachers in schools, Spanish-based classes, the Mexican flag flown…
Want to make any bets about Joseph and Mary moving to Egypt and demanding that the taxpayers support Hebrew-speaking teachers for Jesus??
I agree with Nathan and XXX, illegal immigration is not a religious issue! Oh, but doesn’t the liberal media as represented by Ms. Tucker love to portray it that way, since they think it may support their views.
But let the majority of Christians support a cause the liberal media doesn’t agree with, and listen to them complain about keeping religion out of politics.
You can’t have it both ways, Ms. Tucker, or you look hypocritical. Choose.
The poor illegals don’t have a good life in their own country, so the libs advocate letting them come here and be taken care of.Posted by: Taz | December 26, 2007 at 07:25 AM
What a steaming crock!————————————Last summer, in Boulder, Colorado, eight illegal aliens raped eight American women. The aliens fled back to Mexico. One was caught. In a nearby city of Longmont, a used car dealer was driven out of business because he suffered so much theft from his lot that he bankrupted. An illegal alien killed a California cop, John Marsh, last year. Robberies and break-ins have become the norm in California. They’ve become the pattern in Florida, Georgia, North Carolina and dozens of other states. But the sobering realities concerning these crimes point to one fact–they are illegal aliens. They are importing themselves into this country with a vengeance. They are deadly, pernicious and organized. They represent the worst of what is common in the Third World.
A full 95% of all outstanding warrants for homicide, which totaled 1,500 last year in Los Angeles, pointed to illegal aliens. Soberingly, two thirds of all fugitive felony warrants, totaling a horrifying 17,000, were for illegal aliens.http://www.rense.com/general48/comp.htm
Taz, you need to remember that your hero, president Augustus Stupidus, supports amnesty for illegals.
Few Americans realize that 29 percent of criminals filling jails across this country are illegal and legal immigrants. They cost US taxpayers $1.6 billion annually. The ones that suffer from tuberculosis or hepatitis spread those diseases to other inmates. This causes further medical costs into the millions.http://www.newswithviews.com/Wooldridge/frosty44.htm
Yep, the Christians speak.
While the military “quagmire” in Iraq was said to tip the scales of power in the U.S. midterm elections, most Americans have no idea more of their fellow citizens – men, women and children – were murdered this year by illegal aliens than the combined death toll of U.S. troops in Iraq and Afghanistan since those military campaigns began.http://www.wnd.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=53103
Oh, those poor misunderstood maligned illegal aliens…
Yep, the Christians speak.
Posted by: Door King | December 26, 2007 at 07:39 AM
Chalk up another hit by the Haters.
Note that Democrats support illegal criminals over Christians. Is there no room among Democrats for progressive Christians?
Isn’t this “typical”…………….If you disagree with a self-professed “christian”, you are automatically a “hater”
hypocrites
As the first blogger mentioned, in Jesus time all charity was personal, not through the mandatory confiscation and inefficient redistribution of peoples assets, “the population did not have to labor to support welfare benefits, health care benefits and other things to the immigrants, either”.
Jesus never said we should condone sin or lawlessness (illegal immigration) but to respect the law and authority. He gave people the truth, let them make their decision and went on to others. The same as he does today.
For the crhistian crazies that hate the Mexican be carefully what you wish for. Ronnie R. knew the value of the illegal to social security and the low cost of foood.
Practicing kindness toward strangers is one thing but when they stay in your house, eat your food, and want you to support them for 20-30 years that’s a stranger taking advantage of the host’s kindness.
HELLO are we all forgetting that we are ALL immigrants one way or they other this is what this country was founded on. And maybe if the us government didnt make it so hard for Hispanics to become legal or to even get a work visa to come here and work to support there family they wouldn’t be illegal. You can come here from any other country and get your visa in a month and live here for as long as you want and no one criticizes them for not learning English and the government gives them handouts such as free school and they are allowed to open there own business and get money for that. BUT if you are Hispanic and want to come here for a better life for you and your family they make it impossible so if you want to sit there and pretend to be christians with your holier than thou attitude be a bigest to all immigrants not just Hispanics and then relize that you are no better than they are and that you are one step away from wearing a white sheet.
Iam not supporting any illegal immigrant. They dont stay in my house or eat my food for that matter and last time I checked they reason why they come here is to work so No you are NOT supporting any illegal and to be honest without the Hispanics good luck going to a restaurant and eating because EVERY SINGLE returant you go to they food is made by hispanics and 80% of those Hispanics are illegal so if you all would like to sit there and think your better than them well then dont support anything they do dont eat at restaurants dont drive on they highway which was built by 90% Hispanics. so if you want to be a bigot dont be a hypocritical bigot because Everything you do in todays society they has something to do with. Our society would crumble if it wasn’t for the work that they do
and to all the crazies out there that think they no what they are talking about please please do your research before you comment on something they do pay taxes it get taken out of there paycheck every week just like the rest of us they only diffrence is they dont get a big return at they end of they year like so many of us do nope they just keep paying and paying out of there paychecks and yes social security does to and they will not see any of that either so yes they are paying taxes and social security they only difference is one day you will be supported by the money that was taken out of there paychecks and you will get a social security check in the mail once a month and then you can sit back and know that it was payed for by all those “Nasty Mexicans” who payed taxes and didn’t get anything back. If you all are going to sit there and criticize people at least know your facts or you all look that much more ignorant
I am not sure what makes it so hard to comprehend the stated opinions? Those who are telling their faith are not claiming their opinion is coming from their faith. The opinion is coming from their citizenship of the United States of America. Pointing to the problems that are caused by the flow of illegal Aliens to this country. Professing Christianity does not require that you resend your Citizenship nor does it require you ignore what is in the best interest of the Country. Having a group of lunatics that wish to do harm to this nation and should not have a free access to within our boarders. Means that our boarders need to be enforced. It happens that by doing so would mean that those not terrorists are also restricted from entering.But that is a side issue, also we need to take into account that this invasion of illegal aliens is not only being sanction by the President of Mexico but also our own! But it is a straw man to say it is about the nationality of the illegal aliens. It does not matter whether they are from Mexico or Denmark what matters is the effect upon this nation and the security of the country. These should transcend religious believes unless you want to have this country attacked again?
HELLO are we all forgetting that we are ALL immigrants one way or they other…Posted by: Amber | December 26, 2007 at 08:36 AM
immigrant
Main Entry:im·mi·grant Listen to the pronunciation of immigrantPronunciation:\?i-m?-gr?nt\
Function:noun
Date:1789
: one that immigrates: as a: a person who comes to a country to take up permanent residence b: a plant or animal that becomes established in an area where it was previously unknown— immigrant adjective
Excuse me, but I was born here.
The Atlanta Journal objective piece of journalism? Let’s examine that objective piece of journalism.
“As an abortion-detesting, evolution-denying homophobe, Huckabee is fast winning the devotion of his party’s Christianists, who seem to confuse the office of president with that of preacher or priest. ”
Where’s the love Atlanta Journal?
Perhaps we should blame this all on the Jesuits of the 1500s and 1600s who used indigenous people as pack mules and beasts of burdens.
Nothing like the oak staff of Brother Juan Carlos Rodriquez Gomez Jimenez coming across the back of the natives’ collective skulls impressing the tortured renderings of Catholicisms into the mushy brains of the labor force.
It’s an easy situation to solve. Invoke federal laws that state if one knowingly hires illegal aliens for purpose of employment one will find the oak staff of the Justice Department across your mushy-brained skull regardless of party affiliation.
Not defending Christians, but to blame Christians for wanting our laws enforced and equating that enforcement as racism is about as clueless as one can get.
Kicking some entrepreneurial ass is the only way to stop this flow of illegal immigration.
The next step is to have the U.S. Congress support withholding federal funds for Cities that provide sanctuary to illegals. Kick them right in their collective unwritten public policy scrotums until they get the message.
I don’t recall of voting in any egg-sucking laws that allow illegals to get a by from laws on the books.
It’s time to smack those skulls of mush and send them back to “Margarita-Land.”
What amazes me is the liberal mentality (mental illness) that being overgenerous to people (illegal aliens) who fail to obey our immigration laws or meet their responsibilities is like giving sweets to spoiled children in the vain hope that they will improve their behavior.The results are overwhelmingly the opposite.The child, welfare recipient or illegal immigrant in this case, is always smarter than the liberal and those rewards only go to reinforcing and increasing the bad behavior.When will they ever learn, I think never…that’s why it is mental illness.
If our politicians / government really wanted to close the border they could do it in a week. But the longer the issue is debated the longer cheap labor is available to any special interests.
What’s laughable about this is we’ve known for decades there were illegal immigrants here, they’ve been building our houses, cutting our grass, picking our grapes etc. We’ve known for decades the Mexican government was at best ineffective in creating a viable economy for thier citizens. So we sent them our jobs and allowed an open border so they could pick our cotton (a slave analogy). Wonder why we don’t hear more from corporations about closing the borders? It’s capitalisms finest hour isn’t it?
This isn’t a religious issue.
This is a national survival issue.
“HELLO are we all forgetting that we are ALL immigrants one way or they other this is what this country was founded on.”
Yes dear. Well most of MY ancestors got here in the late 1600’s and early 1700’s. To do so they were on a wooden sailing ship on the Atlantic Ocean for a month.
That’s a little different than wading the Rio Grande or dodging the border patrol.
“Everything you do in todays society they has something to do with”
BOY don’t I know it. I compete for work with these people. The standard of living they find acceptable is working for a dollar an hour. They can do this because they live with a dozen or more like individuals in a one or two room flop.
Is that what you advocate for your fellow American to embrace there Amber? Because sooner of later it is gonna affect you too.
The illegals are the supply to the demand of greedy exploitive American employers. You can’t feed that alligator enough. It just gets hungrier with every bite.
Save America. Send the Mexicans home to fix their own country.
illegal immigrants are DESTROYING our country as we know it – i weep for the future of our children.
Baby Jesus = Illegal Immigrant?
Kristin, you need to get more creative.
The immigration posts are getting a little old.
And trying to make a connection between Christians and illegal immigration is your way of bashing Christians, on the day after Christmas.
Is following immigration law un-Christian?
Or are you arguing for a Christian controlled Government, and Government welfare for the entire planet?
KevThe KKK Act was written to support “Catholics, Republicans and Negroes in the Reconstruction South” —You stack an awful lot of human mistakes and error on the backs of a political party you don’t happen to like.That human error, finding fault in groups, is pretty much what casued many of the bad things that you mentioned.In other words, you, Kev, are highly likely to be unfair to large groups of people, for no rational reason.
Typically, the headline is wrong.
“Any room at the inn for immigrants?”
You know they got nothin’, when they can’t even begin the discussion honestly.
America has lots of room at the inn for immigrants.
Illegal immigrants, not so much.
I think the reference to “no room at the inn” is a stretch for the right story… It’s not so much the “no room” story, but a later story in the same Gospel — The Parable of the Good Samaritan –
The Samaritan – not well thought of by the predominant “party” of the Jews of that day – stops by the road side of a 1st century mugging — examines the situation — puts the beaten man on his own beast — transports him to an inn — pays his costs in advanace — and says he will pay any other fees on his return –
NOTE – He does NOT ask the beaten man’s religious preference… He does NOT ask the beaten man’s political affiliation… He does NOT ask the man’s native citizenship… He does not ask for his family pedigree… He does NOT ask the beaten man’s economic class….
He simply takes care of the need as it presents itself to his eyes… THIS is the appropriate story –
Forget the “no room at the inn” — as pointed out earlier, no one ever said that Mary and Joseph were representatives of the poverty class of people in their time… They just ran into a situation where there were no more rooms available, because of the government edict that everybody report to their home town to register for the taxation!
(That story has little credibility in the facts of Roman history, but that is another matter.)
Now, if we can all just focus on the NEEDS of people — as in the story of the Good Samaritan — The other issues ABOUT those people can be dealt with at a later time.
We are so focused on where these people come from, we have all but forgotten about the basic needs that they come with… Try to focus people… NOT on helping them stay — but on helping them LIVE in order to return to their homes… THEN we might be on to something!!
Remember folks, Reagan was the one who signed on to a HUGE amnesty bill back in 1986 — It has all sort of rolled downhill from then on to the present!!
We cant FIX what Reagan did… but we can darn sure make sure we dont do that same thing again!
I am firmly convinced that ONE thing we SHOULD do is start working with the government of Mexico to start finding solutions to this many faceted problem!!
Sometimes the rough cut sdtone we find might be a diamond waiting to be cut and polished… Other times, its just a dirty lump of coal!!
Hey mom of 5Great post.Something we both left out:Mary and Joseph were not only traveling legally, they were traveling because of an order by the government!
What are the illegals fleeing to come here?
Well they are fleeing a corrupt government that causes Mexico to remain a failed caste/feudal nation state.
Guess what? When the oppressed FLEE their oppressors, the problem just goes on.
The Irish came here because they were fleeing national famine.
Many of my own ancestors were Palatine Germans. THEY came here because their land had been devastated and otherwise worked over by the 30 years war.
In these cases, the volume of people fleeing the problem was limited by the difficulty of the journey. SO enough stayed behind that eventually the problems got fixed.
I don’t have time to find a link, but I think I heard that one QUARTER of the Mexican population is at least some part of the time outside of Mexico. That’s too many people not at home to fix the problems.
November 6, 2007: Rep. Heath Shuler (D-N.C.) introduced legislation today emphasizing the principles of Attrition Through Enforcement. The SAVE Act will broaden and enhance border security and interior enforcement. With a number of border security Democrats and Republicans already agreeing to co-sponsor, this bipartisan effort may be Congress’s best chance to achieve substantial immigration reform this Congress. (Additional information follows below chart)
The principle behind Attrition Through Enforcement is that living illegally in the United States will become more difficult and less satisfying over time when the government – at ALL LEVELS – enforces all of the laws already on the books. It is also imperative that the government with the full cooperation of the private sector, implements certain workplace enforcement measures. The goal is to make it extremely difficult for unauthorized persons to live and work in the United States. There is no need for taxpayers to watch the government spend billions of their dollars to round up and deport illegal aliens; they will buy their own bus or plane tickets back home if they can no longer earn a living here.We know Attrition Through Enforcement works because, in states that have passed tough new laws to penalize employers of and deny public benefits to illegal aliens, the illegal aliens began to move out of those states, often before the new laws are even implemented. As it currently stands, almost 200,000 illegal aliens self-deport from the United States every year, but imagine how many more would leave if our government refused to award illegal aliens another amnesty, mandated all employers to verify a person’s eligibility to work here, cracked down on identity fraud and enabled local police to easily transfer illegal aliens in their custody to Immigration and Customs Enforcement (ICE) officials.Among many detailed border security provisions stressing more agents and better technology at minimal operating costs, the SAVE Act would:
· Increase border patrol agents by 8,000, utilize new technology and fencing to secure the border;
· Expand specialized enforcement programs, such as the “Tunnel Task Force”;
· And, address the “jobs magnet” by strengthening The Employment Verification Program (E-Verify) to close security gaps,
· Address loopholes, and make it mandatory for employers.
At this time the only Kansas representatives Jerry Moran and Nancy Boyda have signed on as CO-SPONSORS of this bill. We need to contact our Representatives and senators and demand that they join to pass this common sense legislation.
Call and fax your opinion, they don’t read this blog!
Senator Sam Brownback contact information- Taken from his web site
Office location Phone # Fax #Washington DC office 1-202-224-6521 1-202-228-1265Overland Park Office 1-913-492-6378 1-913-492-7253Topeka office 1-785-233-2503 1-785-233-2616Garden City office 1-620-231-6040 1-620-231-6347Wichita office 1-316-264-8066 1-316-264-9078
Senator Pat Roberts Contact Information Taken from his web site
Washington DC office 1-202-224-4774 1-202-224-3514
Overland Park Office 1-913-451-9343 1-913-451-9446Topeka office 1-785-295-2745 1-785-235-3665Wichita office 1-316-263-0416 1-316-263-0273Dodge City Office 1-620-227-2244 1-620-227-2264
Representative Todd Tiahrt, Contact information taken from his web site
Wichita OfficeAddress: 155 North Market St.Suite 400Wichita, KS 67202Phone: 316.262.8992Fax: 316.262.5309Washington Office
Address: 2441 Rayburn BuildingWashington, DC 20515Phone: 202.225.6216Fax: 202.225.3489
Amber, dear, you simply do not know what you are talking about.
Again, did you read how Mexico treats non-Mexicans, in their country?:http://www.citizensforaconstitutionalrepublic.com/waller5-8-06.html
I guess if you don’t get caught you aren’t ILLEGAL???
I just screened the BBC documentary “The Nazis: A Warning from History.”
It featured many former Nazis who were unappologetic about their actions during the 1930s and 40s. “It all made sense at the time,” was a common message. The blaming of the Jews and the Gypsies for all the problems facing post-WWI Germany sounded quite familiar to today’s deomization of brown people in America.
Whether it’s racism or xenophobia or just a manifestation of *other-ness* that spurs the ideological hatred for undocumented aliens, the vitriol expressed by folks who think illegal immigration is a major problem is disturbing. The problem is over-stated, the costs are inflated, and the cause of “illegal” aliens coming to this country is ignoreed by so-called “conservatiives.”
The only-est reason there are illegal workers in the United States is that people hire them *illegally.* Those who hire undocumented aliens *illegally* exploit their victims and deflect the problem by blaming the victims.
Mexico has a single, streamlined law that ensures that foreign visitors and immigrants are:
in the country legally;
have the means to sustain themselves economically;
not destined to be burdens on society;
of economic and social benefit to society;
of good character and have no criminal records; and
contributors to the general well-being of the nation.
The law also ensures that:
immigration authorities have a record of each foreign visitor;
foreign visitors do not violate their visa status;
foreign visitors are banned from interfering in the country’s internal politics;
foreign visitors who enter under false pretenses are imprisoned or deported;
foreign visitors violating the terms of their entry are imprisoned or deported;
those who aid in illegal immigration will be sent to prison.
I do find some Christians hypcritical that show anger towards illegals from Mexico. Why, because the illegals are Christians too, you’ll find that the majority of Mexicans are Catholic, reading the same Bible.
If the United States adopted such statutes, Mexico no doubt would denounce it as a manifestation of American racism and bigotry.
We looked at the immigration provisions of the Mexican constitution. [1] Now let’s look at Mexico’s main immigration law.
Mexico welcomes only foreigners who will be useful to Mexican society:
Foreigners are admitted into Mexico “according to their possibilities of contributing to national progress.” (Article 32)
Immigration officials must “ensure” that “immigrants will be useful elements for the country and that they have the necessary funds for their sustenance” and for their dependents. (Article 34)
Foreigners may be barred from the country if their presence upsets “the equilibrium of the national demographics,” when foreigners are deemed detrimental to “economic or national interests,” when they do not behave like good citizens in their own country, when they have broken Mexican laws, and when “they are not found to be physically or mentally healthy.” (Article 37)
The Secretary of Governance may “suspend or prohibit the admission of foreigners when he determines it to be in the national interest.” (Article 38)
Mexican authorities must keep track of every single person in the country:
Federal, local and municipal police must cooperate with federal immigration authorities upon request, i.e., to assist in the arrests of illegal immigrants. (Article 73)
A National Population Registry keeps track of “every single individual who comprises the population of the country,” and verifies each individual’s identity. (Articles 85 and 86)
A national Catalog of Foreigners tracks foreign tourists and immigrants (Article 87), and assigns each individual with a unique tracking number (Article 91).
Foreigners with fake papers, or who enter the country under false pretenses, may be imprisoned:
Foreigners with fake immigration papers may be fined or imprisoned. (Article 116)
Foreigners who sign government documents “with a signature that is false or different from that which he normally uses” are subject to fine and imprisonment. (Article 116)
Foreigners who fail to obey the rules will be fined, deported, and/or imprisoned as felons:
Foreigners who fail to obey a deportation order are to be punished. (Article 117)
Foreigners who are deported from Mexico and attempt to re-enter the country without authorization can be imprisoned for up to 10 years. (Article 118)
Foreigners who violate the terms of their visa may be sentenced to up to six years in prison (Articles 119, 120 and 121). Foreigners who misrepresent the terms of their visa while in Mexico — such as working with out a permit — can also be imprisoned.
Under Mexican law, illegal immigration is a felony. The General Law on Population says,
“A penalty of up to two years in prison and a fine of three hundred to five thousand pesos will be imposed on the foreigner who enters the country illegally.” (Article 123)
Foreigners with legal immigration problems may be deported from Mexico instead of being imprisoned. (Article 125)
Foreigners who “attempt against national sovereignty or security” will be deported. (Article 126)
Mexicans who help illegal aliens enter the country are themselves considered criminals under the law:
A Mexican who marries a foreigner with the sole objective of helping the foreigner live in the country is subject to up to five years in prison. (Article 127)
Shipping and airline companies that bring undocumented foreigners into Mexico will be fined. (Article 132)
All of the above runs contrary to what Mexican leaders are demanding of the United States. The stark contrast between Mexico’s immigration practices versus its Americanimmigration preachings is telling. It gives a clear picture of the Mexican government’s agenda: to have a one-way immigration relationship with the United States.
I am still cutting and pasting from the link, above.No plagerism intended.
I might add that Mexico also makes it illegal for a non-Mexican to own real estate, in Mexico, in most cases.
You have to go to a Mexican bank, and have a “trust” drawn up. It is ok for a “gringo” to be the beneficiary of the “trust” and to have the Bank hold the actual title.
These are the kind of zenophobic, protectionist laws, even feudal laws, that keep Mexico in poverty.
That and their corruption.
We need a United States President to chastise the Mexican Government, ridicule them, directly, tell them that they have two beautiful coastlines, a year round growing season, abundant natural resources, and — a history of some of the most incompetent leadership in the world!
Yes, it will make the Mexican leaders mad, at first.
However, it might push them to change.
“The only-est reason there are illegal workers in the United States is that people hire them *illegally.* Those who hire undocumented aliens *illegally* exploit their victims and deflect the problem by blaming the victims.
Posted by: MonkeyHawk | December 26, 2007 at 09:55 AM ”
This is the only true statement in your post and only partially.
IMIGRANTS are not ILLEGAL. LEGAL IMIGRANTS are welcome. ILLEGAL ALIENS are not!! This is not a racial issue, it is a law issue.
At no time should we discreminate based on race or class.
We just need our borders secured and workable processes put in place to eleminate the MAGNETS which followed the disaster of the 1986 AMNESTY when we only had 2.7 million ILLEGAL AlIENS in the United States. WE now have over 10 times the number of ILLEGAL ALEINS we had PRIOR to 1986 because we did nothing to SECURE THE BORDERS AND REMOVE THE MAGNETS.
Once that is done, I would be one of the first to promote blending current ILLEGAL ALIENS into our society as LEGAL IMIGRANTS.
From today’s Washington (Moonie) Times:
Mike Huckabee is overselling his record of cracking down on illegal aliens as governor, claiming he ordered his state police to arrest illegal aliens when in fact he never signed the agreement with federal authorities that would have allowed it.
Mr. Huckabee signed a bill that began the process, but he never followed through with signing an agreement with the Department of Homeland Security to secure training for state police officers. Without it, they cannot enforce federal immigration law.
“This is a policy difference, but the facts are the facts — under Governor Huckabee’s administration, there was never even any effort to begin negotiating with Homeland Security,” said former state Rep. Jeremy Hutchinson, the Republican who sponsored the 2005 law.
Mr. Huckabee’s campaign acknowledged he didn’t follow through, but said it was lack of time, not lack of interest.
“The clock ran out. We’re glad to hear Governor Beebe picked up the ball and is running with it,” said Charmaine Yoest, a senior adviser to Mr. Huckabee.
Mr. Huckabee signed the law in March 2005, more than 20 months before he left office. In less than a year in office, his successor, Gov. Mike Beebe, a Democrat, has already begun negotiations with DHS.
Immigration-control groups say they fear Mr. Huckabee could repeat President Bush’s track record on immigration, which they say amounted to tough talk but a failure to follow through.
“The devil is in the details, and Bush has shown a pattern of deception on immigration enforcement again and again and again, and the Huckster is right in line with that technique,” said William Gheen, president of Americans for Legal Immigration PAC, who said Mr. Huckabee is trying to fool the Republican primary electorate.
No there slandered of living is not for a dollar and hour that is why they are here and as for living with ” a dozen individual’s” you are so ingnorent you have no idea what you are talking about. KNOW the facts before you try to debate them all you know is what you hear on CNN or what somebody tells you on the street you all sound like a bunch of bigots and I hope to god that someday you all will realize how stupid and ignorant you sound and Iam truly sorry my daughter will grow up in a society where people like you are allowed to speak there mind
Consider… The population of the US is about 300 Million, and the estimated number of illegal aliens in the country is about 55 million. A large portion of these aliens hold jobs and are supporting their family. The costs to the taxpayer from illegal immigration are minuscule compared to the costs for the war in Iraq.
I think we may have taken our eye off of the ball.
Thank you Joe !
“Joe Lunchbox” offers:
“…the estimated number of illegal aliens in the country is about 55 million.”
I have to ask about a cite, here. I’ve heard 14 million bandied about as to the so-called “threat” of “illegal aliens,” but 55 million? Just whose estimate is that?
“A large portion of these aliens hold jobs and are supporting their family. The costs to the taxpayer from illegal immigration are minuscule compared to the costs for the war in Iraq.”
This speaks to the problem of compatmentization so-called “conservatives” are so subject to; they don’t seem to understand their prejudices conflict with the real world.
If Shrub-onomics were so glorious, as Republic Party paritsans assert, and unemployment is really as low as skewed government numbers assert, the addition of “illegal” workers presents no threat to economic prosperity.
If it’s abhorrant to the Republic Party to pay $7 Billion a year to expand healtcare to poor children, how can they justify off-the-books expenditures of $7 Billion *every two weeks* to kill Iraqis?!
If you all are going to sit there and criticize people at least know your facts or you all look that much more ignorant
Posted by: a
This post was sad. I’m guessing that “a” has been reading La Raza (The Race) website to gather up this drival. As far as “knowing” the facts, yes a got them correct…up to a point. Sorry a, but I’m afraid I’m going to have to fill in a few more “facts” they either you refuse to see or weren’t told about.
I make about 44,000 a year. I pay approx 2,200 a year in Social Security. So according to you, I pay all the taxes I need to in just that amount and how dare we ask for more from the illegals who will not get that back.
In the state where I live, (and I know this for a fact, because it is part of my job) the average cost per student, per year, for education is $10,678.00. Non english speaking students, why that jumps up just over another 2,000. So lets pretend that the illegal immigrant ONLY had 2 kids. That is over 24,000 dollars per year to educate his children.
Now true the illegal alien is probably paying some type of property tax in his rent each month, so what MAYBE a thousand a year in property taxes???
Also lets not forget that there are quite a few of these that receive some type of public assistance. Such as welfare and food stamps.
Shall we talk about crime and that cost. Want to take a guess on how much it costs to provide all documents related to a court case that has to be done in spanish. How about the cost of interpretors? In the state where I live if the police officers is not able find someone who speaks the language, the police may call on a “language line”. The service is very helpful. Basically the officer asks the interpretor on the phone a question to ask the victim, the suspect, a witness etc. Then hands the phone to the non english speaker, then the phone goes back to the officer. Pretty time consuming huh??The cost of this service to the police department? Currently 3.85 per minute.
But wait theres more. Remember each time you started a job, you had to fill out a W-4. On this form you advised the guvment how many dependents you had and they removed taxes accordingly. The more dependents you had, the lesser amount of taxes were taken out each month. Did the guvment ever come by your house to verify the number of dependents that you had??Well here is a big shocker. Those illegal aliens learned this. So when filling out the W-4 (using an illegal SSN by the way) they showed on average 8 dependents. Gee wonder how much in taxes each month they paid???
I think that is enough facts for you today a. I’ll save you the embarrassment in talking about illegal aliens and our health care.
…and I hope to god that someday you all will realize how stupid and ignorant you sound and Iam truly sorry my daughter will grow up in a society where people like you are allowed to speak there mindPosted by: amber | December 26, 2007 at 10:42 AM
Yes Amber, we too are truly sorry that your daughter will be forced to grow up in a society where people are allowed to speak their minds. You should not rest until you find a society where everyone agrees with you. Hopefully somewhere where she doesn’t have to learn English (she might screw it up as bad as you do).
Talk about ignorant.
By the way Amber you are free to jump in with your facts that are against mine,
OR
are we just going to talk about how hatefilled I am and the thought that your daughter may find out that these facts are true because mommy didn’t want to see them before it was to late.
Here’s hoping that your child never gets hurt by someone who should never have been here in the first place.
Iam truly sorry my daughter will grow up in a society where people like you are allowed to speak there mind
Posted by: amber | December 26, 2007 at 10:42 AM
looks like amber is showing her true personal politics—”If he don;t agree with me, you shouldn’t be allowed to speak”…
Merry Christmas, we’re here to drive your wages even farther downward.
Since Mexico is a democracy, with free and fair elections, there is not a persecuted refugee problem. There is not Christian standard that stated a Christian should tolerate illegal behavior, by the illegal immigrants, or those who hire them. THose who try to portray it as a Christian issue, only wish to bash those whom they dislike, and so use a false issue. Shame on you, and we al see through your bias.
Amber:
“and Iam truly sorry my daughter will grow up in a society where people like you are allowed to speak there mindPosted by: amber | December 26, 2007 at 10:42 AM—-Move to Cuba, you misguided, angry, un-American tyrant.
You do not know how to debate. You openely state that you want to take that right away.
And, on top of that, you are the worst debator on the Blog, so far, on either side of this issue.
Again.
Pack your bags.
Comrade Castro will welcome you with open arms.
” . . . and Iam [sic] truly sorry my daughter will grow up in a society where people like you are allowed to speak there [sic] mind”
Posted by: amber | December 26, 2007 at 10:42 AM
—-
That nasty old 1st amendment is a troubling thing, huh? If only those people you disagree with would shut up . . . perhaps they should BE shut up, just for your daughter’s sake. After all, it’s “for the children,” right?
If it’s abhorrant to the Republic Party to pay $7 Billion a year to expand healtcare to poor children, how can they justify off-the-books expenditures of $7 Billion *every two weeks* to kill Iraqis?!
Posted by: MonkeyHawk
GEE, I thought it was the MAJORITY holding DEMOCRAT congress who keeps spending the money each year. Last I heard the CONGRESS has to give the money to the president. Silly me.
Sorry, authorize, not give
“Dilbert” offers:
“You are mixing apples and oranges MH.”
Brilliant refutation, “Dilbert!”
By golly, you went to the facts of the issue and offered your careful analysis and proved your point and won the field!
Well, actually, you didn’t.
You spewed a cliche and ran away because you’ve got nothing.
Hey Amber, while you are re-writing the first amendment, maybe you can remove that pesky little check and balance that the president has over the congress. Nancy and Harry would REALLY appreciate it. Thanks
“Gene Raston” chimes in with:
“GEE, I thought it was the MAJORITY holding DEMOCRAT congress who keeps spending the money each year. Last I heard the CONGRESS has to give the money to the president. Silly me.”
And thereby, “Gene Raston,” you trip over yet another consequence of conservative compartmentalized thinking.
You know as well as I that a simple majority in Congress does not assure majority will of the people will prevail. As long as George WMD Bush (or any president) has the veto pen, the congressional majority is upped to 2/3rds of each house’s vote.
We’ll get there.
Don’t worry.
Shrub and Newt and Cheney and DeLay and Larry Craig and the rest of the Republic Party coalition have successfully ruined all credibility for the “conservative” cause in America.
And the problem is your skillful ability to compartmentalize issues until the natural consequences of your so-called “principles” come home to roost.
The key word here is “illegal”. This country as always welcomed immigrants. This country will continue to welcome “legal” immigrants to our wonderful country. Legal immigrants want to be Americans unlike illegal immigrants who’s alligence is to their country rather than their new found country of freedom.
If you want to be an American then pay your dues and assimilate. There is a cost to the freedoms we enjoy.
You spewed a cliche and ran away because you’ve got nothing.
Posted by: MonkeyHawk
Was my arguement better Monkey?
Got another question Monkey. Why has the authority to begin impeachment hearings against Cheney still sitting on the house judiciary’s committee’s desk since November 7. I know that the DEMS have the majority on that committee. Whats the hold up???
But gee Monkey. I thought you all gave the Dems the majority to do the peoples bidding?I thought this was a MANDATE of the people?
I thought this was the change that the Dems promised?
Well hey, I guess raising the minimum wage was a good start and the energy bill, sweeeeeet.
Anything Else????
I wonder how many people who cite an aliens “illegal” status have cheated on their taxes? I wonder if they ever speed down Kellogg. Maybe they are doing something else that is illegal. I think the issue should be the status of the laws, not the status of the people.
When you live inside a wall, you not only keep everyone else out, you become a prisoner yourself.
GeneOf course, you do realize one important point:
Elected Democrats, in Congress, as a general rule, are not as crazy as the Left Wing base that sent them there.
So, they have to pretend to listen to the crazy people, without destroying the country, in the process!
Now that many have picked apart Amber’s terrible spelling, grammar, sentence structure, and understanding of the Constitution and Bill of Rights, let’s see if she can answer a simple question.
Amber, if a man walks into a bank and robs it, do you think he should be arrested or go free?
OH okay, thanks econ. Is that right Monkey?
ILLEGAL ALIEN is the correct term for someone who came into or stayed illegally. IMIGRANT is the term for an individual we WANT TO BE HERE. (LEGALLY)
Please don’t insult the immigrant.
Theodore Roosevelt’s ideas on Immigrants and being an AMERICAN in 1907.
“In the first place, we should insist that if the immigrant who comes here in good faith becomes an American and assimilates himself to us, he shall be treated on an exact equality with everyone else, for it is an outrage to discriminate against any such man because of creed, or birthplace, or origin. But this is predicated upon the person’s becoming in every facet an American, and nothing but an American…There can be no divided allegiance here. Any man who says he is an American, but something else also, isn’t an American at all. We have room for but one flag, the American flag.. We have room for but one language here, and that is the English language… and we have room for but one sole loyalty and that is a loyalty to the American people.”
Theodore Roosevelt 1907
Every American citizen needs to read this!
Imbalance of trade and soft borders.
Begin a tax incentive for new factories to be built in ‘the Valley’ in Texas and other states that border Mexico. Allow ‘migrant workers’ easy passage to and from these facilities, at the factory’s expense. Either bus them in and out daily or build some kind of barracks for the workers. Eliminate the minimum wage for these workers.
To pay for this program, levy an import tax on everything from China.
Result: (Maybe) less Mexicans entering and staying in the country illegally. By providing them with work here and in close proximity to ‘home’ they can bring their wages back to their families w/o taxation or Western Union fees. This would allow them to remain Mexicans in Mexico while providing a slice of American dream. The import tax would reduce the imports from and our dependence on China and increase the tax base for American companies.
MonkeyH your argument is, “If we can spend money on “X” we should be able to spend money on “Y”.
There is an unending pot of money being appropriated by Congress(Democrat majority) and signed into law by the President (republican) for a myriad of
of purposes.
Your focus on two budget items your democrats approved, which you personally see no value in, and attempt in some fashion to relate that to the thread subject (which is illegal immigrants and christians).
This can and has been done throughout our history for any given federal program. You may remember, “We have enough money to send a man to the moon, but not take care of the poor.” In the sixties. Or comparing the Vietnam War costs to other socially acceptable programs.
I could make a similiar comment about the wasteful EARMARKS congress quietly included in recent legislation (”We got enough money to fund a mueseum in Leavenworth – but not enough to fund medical care for children!”)
It makes for a nice sound bite, but really has nothing to do with how our politicians fund various programs. Each are considered on their own merits.
Your comment, “the addition of “illegal” workers presents no threat to economic prosperity.”
glosses over the ILLEGAL criminals you attempt to justify providing support for – at taxpayer expense.
Just a quick comment on “all that money” spent on the Iraq war…the Mexicans (both in their own country and in ours) and the Canadians are depending on the US to keep their countries safe, also. If we weren’t spending “all that money” defeating terrorists, all of North America would be in greater danger.
Aside from that, if you’ve checked the actual government figures lately, you’d notice that SOCIAL spending is still way ahead of ALL MILITARY spending. If the government would stop supporting people who could earn their own living, we’d have plenty for the main purpose of the federal government – protection of the country.
Earmarks- this is the method used to sneak in spending which would not be approved on it’s own merit.
What we need is a line item veto. Then these types of wasteful spending would not be a easy to attach, and those the Congress thought necessary could be pushed through with an override.
We don’t have to worry about this becoming law, as it would so dramatically change the political landscape that our lawmakers run from it.
RS -
“What we need is a line item veto.”
Same is, however, unconstitutional. What is not unconstitutional, and is entirely within the pervue of Congress, is a germaneness requirement. Same would stop attachments irrelevent to the purpose of the bill, such as “earmarks,” from being attached. It would not solve the problem entirely, of course; there is no solution aside from fiscal discipliine at both ends of Pennsylvania Avenue, and as long as politicians buy votes with goodies for their home districts, that won’t happen. It’s a side-effect of elected government.
So GMC, do we need a Constitutional Amendment to allow a Presidential line-item veto?
As long as the People keep demanding Earmarks, and/or allowing their Congressmen to continue this practice, Congress will NEVER have the self-discipline to stop spending beyond our means.
At least a Presidential line-item veto could stop the Earmarks for the party that is NOT in the Whitehouse.
Max, not speaking for GMC here but for me, yes, there would need to be a constitutional amendment in order to have a line item veto.
As you state, the existence of a line item veto would only be partially effective at best. It isn’t just Congress that benefits from various earmarks, special legislation, etc., but also the current resident of 1600 Pennsylvania Avenue (regardless of party or identity) that benefits, particularly when reelection looms.
As you might be able to discern, I don’t believe there will be any push for the constitutional amendment needed to procure a line item veto, from either party, from Congress or the President. There’s just too much to lose (reelection, keeping the party in power, etc.) and not enough to gain, at least from those now in place, and I suspect, those who will succeed them.
Interesting read on the ITEM VETO CONSTITUTIONAL AMENDMENT
http://commdocs.house.gov/committees/judiciary/hju65012.000/hju65012_0f.htm
And Rudy Giuliani on the Line Item Veto:
Q: A lot of people say the single most effective tool that a president could have to cut spending is the line-item veto.
A: Correct.
Q: And yet, when you were mayor, Pres. Clinton–when he had that power back in the mid-’90s, he used it to line-item veto what he said was excessive Medicaid spending. You not only opposed it, you took him to the Supreme Court and you got it ruled unconstitutional. So it’s because of you we don’t have the line-item veto.
A: The line-item veto is unconstitutional, and I’m a strict constructionist. If we want the line-item veto, it has to be done by constitutional amendment. The reality is it so fundamentally alters the separation of powers, it’s unconstitutional. The Supreme Court decided that. I believe that. And of course, it was in the interest of my city to advocate for it. It was my job to protect the people of NYC, and I did it vigorously and strongly and we were correct in our interpretation of the Constitution. And the president was incorrect.
Source: Fox News Sunday: 2007 “Choosing the President” interviews May 14, 2007
http://www.issues2000.org/Archive/2007_Fox_News_Sunday_Rudy_Giuliani.htm
There is too much to lose for both political parties, given that their priority is 1st to stay in power.
Lower on the priority list for politicians of any political party, is the best interest of America.
I wonder if their could be enough of a push made by the People to push an Amendment thru.
Last May, we saw a huge effort by the People to kill the immigration amnesty bill.
True, Max, there was a huge effort last May; but, it (the bill) still has viability, maybe in different clothing, and is going to come around again and again. It is my personal opinion that there is too much money behind passage of something that resembles that which was so strongly opposed, money which those on both sides of the aisle want for their campaigns. Thus, something’s going to pass; I obviously have no idea of what the specifics will be, but I speculate there will be some form of that which you label amnesty contained therein.
I hope I’m wrong; I fear I’m not.
It’s not about my religious views, it’s about my country being overwhelmed by a flood of illegal aliens who don’t care about anything this country has to offer except the money and benefits. Most of these “people” aren’t interested in integrating into our society; they remain large enclaves of foreigners in our midst.***************************The quote on the word “people” was yours, X.
What was that you were saying about haters? You might try looking in the mirror.
wow you guys are really dumb get a life you are not and will not do anything about it illegal or legal Mexicans are her and will continue to come into this country legally and illegally and you are going to be sitting here like computer nerds typing away on you keyboard mad at the world for something that is NEVER going to change because our society today depends to much on them legal or illegal like it or not and Iam pretty sure
Think about going out to eat and spending 2xs as much for the same plate because the restaurant your eating at has to pay 3xs more to a cook or paying 2xs more for someone to mow your grass ext ext I could go on and on the point is you just want to complain about something and this is an easy one for people to complain about all the “horrible mexicans.”hypocrites YOU ALL are a bunch of hypocrites and
P.S. get a life they are here get over it stop being mad at the world for something you are never going to change.ha ha you guys are pathetic !
It’s a complex issue, a.
Unfortunately, some people have decided to let their fears and xenophobia do their thinking for them.
Like I said before, folks: imagine they’re Canadians. Yeah, impute whateever objections to their existence (real or hallucinated) to the Canadian “ice-back.” Make them speak French, and sneer about their right to speak it. Moan about the lost call-center jobs. Whatever.
But a little more rationality–please!
I think we should adopt the same laws as Mexico, on the immigration issue.
http://www.citizensforaconstitutionalrepublic.com/waller5-8-06.html
I don’t see many comments above by those opposed to ILLEGAL criminals sneaking into our country which are racist or motivated against one particular group of ILLEGALS.
I don’t care if they are canadian, mexican, Honduran, Cuban, or Russian!
They all are ILLEGAL and do not belong in our country.
Kick them all out the same.
I am not worried about higher food prices, construction prices, or landscaping prices.
Stop providing support for criminals and their families. Not in our schools nor availing themselves of our social programs.
Defeatism is saying we “can’t” when we really “can” do something about it. And we will. Once the politicians on BOTH sides get this next election over with – they will try to ram amnesty down our throat again. The American people will still NOT tolerate it.
This is not a republican or democrat issue. It’s an American issue.
Further, sanctuary for criminals should be criminal. Be it by cities, churches, christians, jews, or other.
Great, Paul: I hope you’re ready for the inevitable spike in taxes when the cost of all those felony prison terms becomes due. Oh, and let’s not forget the cost of building new prisons, which will inevitably have to occur.
You will–OF COURSE–apply it across-the-board, no matter where the immigrants are from, right?
Ok, AW: Assume we have 12 million French Canadians in this country who either crossed the border illegally, or overstayed their visas.
What do you do about it?
Why do they have to be French Canadians Rage?
If 12 million French Canadians all of a sudden came into America, then we would have one H of a Homeland Security problem.
So IF that happened, we would need to take quick action to:
1)Secure the border2)Deport the Canadians3)Fine any companies that hire these people illegally4)Demand the Candadian government stop the illegal immigration of their people to the USA
Why not? It’s a general principle that WOULD apply to French Canadians–wouldn’t it?
So much of the objection I see to the undocumented Mexicans focuses on aspects of their culture. If the policy is sound, shifting the object to northern white people shouldn’t change a thing, particularly since our Fourteenth amendment demands equal protection of the laws.
Right?
Max, I was waiting for Rage to explain why they had to be Frenchy Kunacks. My answer is self-explanatory if you read my original post on the subject. Same as yours.
But it is interesting Rage singled them out: Because the french failed to assimulate into Canadian society – they have multi-lingual culture, and at one point attempted to leave the commonwealth!
Sound familiar?
French Canadians who come to America are called: CAJUNS!
Anyway, Rage, I do not think we need to deport all the illegals who are here, already.
We don’t have to arrest them, either.
If we simply enforce the law, many will leave on their own.
Again, I see a HUGE need for immigrants.
I insist, however, that those allowed in, under legal measures, want to be Americans.
Illegal immigration should not be rewarded.
Rage let me modify what I posted earlier:
“I don’t care if they are canadian (or any particular kind of canadian), mexican, Honduran, Cuban, or Russian.”
Not sure the constitutional rule on equal protection applies to illegals, but it probably does – so unprotect all ILLEGAL’s the same, and boot them out.
I posted before, I don’t believe for most Americans it has anything to do with race or where they come from. It doesn’t for me.
Well, we don’t have to arrest all of them.My idea would be to simply deport any illegal caught committing another crime.
“But it is interesting Rage singled them out: Because the french failed to assimulate into Canadian society – they have multi-lingual culture, and at one point attempted to leave the commonwealth!
Sound familiar?”
I chose FCs because French is their primary language. Canada is nonetheless a bilingual state–and not just in Quebec. Adjust the thought experiment as needed.
I also notice that the Canadian government hasn’t expelled the entire population of Quebec {7,546,131 (Statistics Canada, 2006 Census}–a task considerably easier than deporting 12 million Mexicans. Why not?
Incidently, they HAVEN’T left the Commonwealth, or been kicked out. Life goes on. But what conceivable relevance does this have to whether someone has emigrated illegally?
Thanks for making my point for me, AW.
My idea would be to simply deport any illegal caught committing another crime.
Posted by: econ101 | December 26, 2007 at 02:29 PM
Congrats, Paul: that’s already the law. Thanks for playing.
RageIt hardly ever happens.In fact, local law enforcement gets frustrated, often, that the feds are so slow to answer their calls for help, with such prisoners.
RageNot meaning to speak for anyone but myself, but Canada is NOT a good example for us.Canada is a very divided society.We do not want to suffer the same problems as Canada.
Max,
Would you consider adding another action against the Canadian’s?
Stop trade until they seal their border, or pay the US for the cost of us supporting their citizens.
And Rage, it proves my point: During the sixties Canada went through some very dangerous and trying times with their separists.
It will happen here: The mexican-americans are already calling for taking back the southwest.
“Not meaning to speak for anyone but myself, but Canada is NOT a good example for us.”
I see. Then you would prefer. . .Mexico??:
http://blogs.kansas.com/weblog/2007/12/any-room-at-the.html#comment-94873748
Canada is still paying a price. The cost for bilingual signs everywhere, recorded messages, federal forms, and even dual internet sites/languages! There is also division between the people.
It will happen here: The mexican-americans are already calling for taking back the southwest.
Posted by: AW | December 26, 2007 at 02:41 PM
(Big eye-roll)
I live in the Southwest (Tucson, to be exact).
I’ll let you know when I see the tanks coming.
A W – the issue in both the American southwest and in French Canada is that they were there before the Anglos were.
ON your 2:41 post AW, YES.
If we tell the Mexican President, until you stop illegal emmigration from Mexico to the US,
1)All US Foreign Aid to Mexico will cease.
2)NAFTA for Mexico will be suspended.
In six months or less, the problem would be solved.
National ID cards for all Legal Immigrants should be required, as well as an Instant Check system where an employer can immediately verify if someone is legally able to work in the US.
Once the illegal aliens discover they no longer can work here (we need to stop welfare for them too), then they will go back home and/or apply for legal residency.
There is no reason to consider a mass forced deportation using armed troops or police.
If the above steps are taken, most will leave on their own.
I’m not over reacting. This has been in the news, although they have toned it down after the reaction by the American citizens became known. Do you need links?
I enjoy the SW also. Fountain Hills, AZ whenever I can get away!
Again, my main point is I don’t think we are focusing on one particular “type” of ILLEGAL. It ain’t personal. I want them all to leave!
If that takes strong enforcement of existing laws (to include employers), building a wall, cutting off federal benefits to individuals and states which fail to enforce federal law, or physcially rounding them up.
Stun guns or lasso rope, mox nix to me.
Ben, Santa Fe older than Jamestown?
Mom of 5: Check the Canadian body bag count, check the wounded coming back from Afganistan where we have been since day one along with you guys. Canadian infantry units have receieved American Presidential Citations other individuals, US medals for valour. Take out the Brits who have suffered less casulaties than us and you might note there is more Canadian blood spit than all the European NATO forces combined. That’s not counting Canadian infantry killed by US “friendly” fire”. Because America was attacked on 9/11 it was our duty under Nato and our wish, to engage anyone who attacks a fellow member. We had no reason to believe the Bush B/S about Iraq. On 9/11 the Canadian Air Force was scrambled by Norad to patrol northern US skies while we took in US bound air passengers when your airspace closed. Maritimers in small towns and villages fed, bed, tended and offered hospitality to many, many thousands of stranded
Americans in our churches, schools, hospitals, homes, anywhere there was space to lie down.The gesture was so appreciated some grateful and surprised Americans started an education bursary. Maybe you missed all that stuff.
There is no reason to consider a mass forced deportation using armed troops or police.Posted by: Max
Well Max that’s part of the problem: Do you enforce a “little” of the law, a “little” of the time? Should you throw deportation out? Or enforce it?
Everytime OHS tries to round up a few – it becomes a national event in the media, “Oh those poor souls!”
And the crying and whining follows by the bleeding hearts.
Sorry: Either enforce the law – or throw the law out as not a good law, or unenforceable.
I’d sure hate to be a border patrol agent: “Catch em!” “NO, wait, DON’T catch em!” “NO – let em go!”
It’s like sending men to combat but then trying to tell them how to fight the war.
You either do it – or you don’t.
If you decide to enforce and deport: Stand up to the whiners.
“Do you need links?”
Sure. I need a good laugh.
On your 2:57 post AW, I agree we should enforce the law.
However, most of the naysayers of law enforcement paint the picture of armed troops rounding up illegal aliens by the thousands.
I don’t see that happening, and don’t see the need for that.
When 50 illegal aliens are arrested at a meat packing plant in Marshalltown, Iowa, all of a sudden, hundreds of Hispanic people disappeared.
Why?
They left because they were afraid of getting caught.
The IRS only has to arrest a small percentage of tax filers every year, and look at the enforcement rate of the IRS!
Immigration could and should do the same thing.
But the same end could be achieved with a small percentage of arrests.
Tom – Jamestown is not in the Southwest.
Of course, to my people Jamestown was a bunch of illegals too.
Law enforcement – why not go after the employERS of the illegals? That might dry thing up a bit.
Rage?
If it were Canadians working for under market wages I would be just as moved to action.
Amber or a or both
You have me all wrong.
I am not against Mexicans. I am FOR Americans. The wage and labor standards we have in this country were hard won. People fought and even died for them.
And yes dear an illegal WILL work for a dollar an hour or less. I have encountered this personally. I choose not to exploit it.
Hey MY issue with the illegals (sublimation of American labor and wages) could be solved by making all of them citizens. THEN business couldn’t exploit them.
But there are reasons not to do that. An American citizen and a newly legal Mexican American up for a job, who do YOU think the employer chooses? Why the one that speaks English of course.
But mostly? It is appalling the corruption of the government of Mexico. They are basing their economy in large part on hurting ours. And they get to continue to fail their own people as a bonus!
Mexico needs a revolution. They can’t have it if all the downtrodden are here.
If they are illegal…HELL NO!!
Totally agree with what your saying JR.
When I get defensive is when people start talking and acting like they are dogs they are people (mothers, daughters,sons Etc) They are leaving Mexico for a reason to better themselves and their kids they reason why they dont have visas is because the government makes it to hard for them to get them..and yes if they do the crime they should get deported but not when they are working hard trying to support there family
The wage and labor standards we have in this country were hard won.
Who won those standards, J.R?
“”"So are we, in the name of Jesus, to throw open the borders and watch our nation drowned under the tidal wave of illegal aliens?”"”
Jesus said to take care of and not hate the poor and this applies to Mexicans as well as anybody else. Now should we throw open the borders? NO! And nobody is advocating that. In fact we need much tighter controls on the border as well as a high level of workplace enforcement with high fines and even jail time for businesses or people caught hiring anybody in the country illegally. We also need to go to a tamper proof biometric national ID issued to all citizens and legal immigrants. The bottom line is- no jobs= no people sneaking in. But with that we need a program to give amnesty to those already here that are working, paying taxes, learning English and staying out of trouble with the law.
November 6, 2007: Rep. Heath Shuler (D-N.C.) introduced legislation today emphasizing the principles of Attrition Through Enforcement. The SAVE Act will broaden and enhance border security and interior enforcement. With a number of border security Democrats and Republicans already agreeing to co-sponsor, this bipartisan effort may be Congress’s best chance to achieve substantial immigration reform this Congress. (Additional information follows below chart)
The principle behind Attrition Through Enforcement is that living illegally in the United States will become more difficult and less satisfying over time when the government – at ALL LEVELS – enforces all of the laws already on the books. It is also imperative that the government with the full cooperation of the private sector, implements certain workplace enforcement measures. The goal is to make it extremely difficult for unauthorized persons to live and work in the United States. There is no need for taxpayers to watch the government spend billions of their dollars to round up and deport illegal aliens; they will buy their own bus or plane tickets back home if they can no longer earn a living here.We know Attrition Through Enforcement works because, in states that have passed tough new laws to penalize employers of and deny public benefits to illegal aliens, the illegal aliens began to move out of those states, often before the new laws are even implemented. As it currently stands, almost 200,000 illegal aliens self-deport from the United States every year, but imagine how many more would leave if our government refused to award illegal aliens another amnesty, mandated all employers to verify a person’s eligibility to work here, cracked down on identity fraud and enabled local police to easily transfer illegal aliens in their custody to Immigration and Customs Enforcement (ICE) officials.Among many detailed border security provisions stressing more agents and better technology at minimal operating costs, the SAVE Act would:
· Increase border patrol agents by 8,000, utilize new technology and fencing to secure the border;
· Expand specialized enforcement programs, such as the “Tunnel Task Force”;
· And, address the “jobs magnet” by strengthening The Employment Verification Program (E-Verify) to close security gaps,
· Address loopholes, and make it mandatory for employers.
At this time the only Kansas representatives Jerry Moran and Nancy Boyda have signed on as CO-SPONSORS of this bill. We need to contact our Representatives and senators and demand that they join to pass this common sense legislation.
I know you are trying to come from a kind place a.
“They are leaving Mexico for a reason to better themselves and their kids”
Yes I know. But I have myself and my kid to think of. That and all the other American workers who cannot compete against people who are so desperate they will work for anything. And as I said, as long as they are free and even encouraged by their own country to come here, they will not fix their country and will continue to come here.
“they dont have visas is because the government makes it to hard for them to get them..”
There is a reason for that. The government has quotas that are supposed to be applied equally to all nations with people who would like to come here.
This is a case where the more compassionate thing overall is a little bit painful for a start.
Mexico is NOT a poor country. They have oil and other resources. They have a booming tourism industry.
But Mexico looks like the US would have if not for the New Deal. The wealth is concentrated to a few who use it to corrupt and control the government through all levels.
The illegals need to fix this instead of running from it. And if we continue to allow them coming, America will begin to look a lot more like Mexico.
Why the double standard with illegals coming from Cuba?
In the great AMNESTY of 1986 2,700,000 ILLEGAL ALIENS were give the opportunity to become LEGAL. Most took it.
NOW, 21 years later the number of ILLEGAL ALIENS is TEN TIMES THE PROBLEM IT WAS IN 1986.
Example, GARDEN CITY KANSAS. Monfort and IBP build huge Beef packing plants. Dodge City EXCELL moves from Wichita to Dodge City.In all these Cases, These packing operations required a workforce of more that 25% of the EXISTING POPULATION of those communities.
Hindsight tells me that these companies knew they could attract CHEAP LABOR, meaning CHEAP ILLEGAL LABOR and everyone would look the other way while they saved millions in payroll.
We need to penalize all employers who depend on Illegal labor. There are many people who will work for decent wages. THE ILLEGAL ALIENS are not immigrants. They are a burden on our welfare system, medical system, and especially our schools.In Garden City, ESL classes were put in place in the 80’s-90’s because the ESL at home was so predominate. The cost is tremendous.
Does anyone know what the total cost of each ILLEGAL ALIEN is in terms of $ per year??
We need eleminate the MAGNETS and secure the borders.
In general: ‘Cajuns came from Nova Scotia/New Brunswick, not Quebec and their descendants still here are called L’Acadie with their homeland New Brunswick, a fully bilingual Province. Right now, most of the Canadian troops in Afaganistan are Quebecois, not Anglos indicating the unity of 2 unique cultures as does the fact that 3 of my grandkids have French as their first language and 5 English. The 60’s brought a lot of angry kids out everywhere in the world. France, Italy the UK the US all had their contretempts during the Vietnam era. What arose from our contretemps was the understanding that we are a Bilingual country, where French is spoken in about 30-35% of homes across the country, mostly in Quebec, New Brunswick and Ontario and that we have the right to be served by Ottawa in the language of ease….anywhere. That costs money and worth every dime.
BenCuba is a Communist country and an avowed enemy of the United States.I do think it is a holdover from the Cold War, but — we do reward people who escape Communism.
“RS” –
My sister was working for the Social Security Administration when the 1986 amnesty was enacted. She said enforcement of illegal hiring lasted about two weeks before employers pressured congressmen to ease up on the law.
It wasn’t much of a problem to track down illegal duplicates of aliens’ fraudulent Social Security cards and other documents. But greedy employers had the pressure (and the campaign donations) to gut the law.
People don’t come to the United States to “take advantage of welfare, health care, or schools,” they come here to work. If you have a problem with illegal workers, your real problem is with those who hire people *illegally.*
Deal with the people who hire illegally and the problem’s solved.
But George WMD Bush and the Republic Party are wholly-owned subsidiaries of people who expoit illegal labor.
OK…1st amendment. Hum, do we still have that?
2nd. I still think we need to ship these illegal aliens to Iraq and let them fight the war. Then maybe they won’t come in droves to our country for they will have to fight our wars! Instead of deporting them back to Mexico and having them come right back over, deport them to Iraq immediately. If they don’t like it, they can swim on home. If they aren’t killed in Iraq and come back after a year or two of serving OUR Country, then they can become citizens.
3rd. This is NOT a religous issue.
4th. People that were immigrants back in the old days came here and became citizens and did all of this legally.
5th. Ship them to Russia. Let the Russian’s or better yet Chinese deal with them. They won’t put up with the influx of illegals and will probably put them in prison for life!
I’ve had it with illegals! We need to get this through our sorry-assed governments head that we want our country back! Ship them off and ship them out and make sure it is NOT back to Mexico. If you send them back to Mexico, you can be damned sure they will be back.
4th – NOT TRUE. My ancesters never consented to the imnflux of Europeans from the Mayflower on down. The immigrants just gave each other permission to flood the land.
Ben, I’m truly sorry about that. I did not mean Native Americans for unfortunately, the land was stolen by the immigrants and I still do not agree with that.
Does anyone know anything else about the Sioux’s attempt to break off from the US? Read the article a few days ago in Fox News. I was dancing a jig to that one!
“LM” writes:
“I still think we need to ship these illegal aliens to Iraq and let them fight the war.”
So service in the military should be considered punishment?
Hmmm.
During WW2 we had American citizens serving in the military while their families were held in internment camps back in the USA.
Why the double standard with illegals coming from Cuba?
Posted by: Ben | December 26, 2007 at 05:48 PM
Cubans seek political asylum to escape from an oppressor.
Mexicans seek to gain a personal financial advantage and take advantage of a neighboring country’s good will.
During WW2 we had American citizens serving in the military while their families were held in internment camps back in the USA.
Posted by: Ben | December 26, 2007 at 06:56 PM
So? Talk to your grandfathers about that. That wasn’t a decision made in the 21st century and is irrelevant.
Ben I think the ultimate decimation of the native American people and culture was abominable.
But it is not terribly fair to blame all the immigrants.
Rather blame the leaders of Europe during the 1600’s, in particular the English and Dutch.
They just arbitrarily divvied out land grants on a continent that was not theirs to wealthy individuals. The immigrants were largely just workers sent to be a new sort of land serf.
Your talk of Indian lands stolen by immigrants is interesting. What do you think the poor of central american and Mexico are. Could they be — er — Indians, and could they be taking it back?
Indians were murdering indians before any spanish or other immigrants came to American shores.
Ghastly acts. Horrible slaughter.
Ultimately, the white settlers ended the original indian-indian wars. Only with white man’s arrival did the tribes unite.
And only because of money do they remain united.
Please visit our casino’s.
The territories you speak to door king were “taken” from Mexico as the end result of a war that Mexico started.
Blame Generalissimo Santa Anna.
It should NOT mean I have to compete for work with people content and eager to work for nothing.
What is a Mexican? Hispanic? Or a mix of the Indian population which was inbred into the Spanish Conqueror who stole the Indian lands in Mexico.
Mexicans, then stole other native American’s land. Some was called Texas, New Mexico and Arizona lands.
Then the Yankee’s stole Texas back from the Mexicans, who had stolen it from the original tribes. Santa Ana wanted to take it back from Sam Houston (the thief).
Convoluted mess.
Somewhere possession becomes 90% of the law.
Maybe it would have come out better (for the Mexican people anyway) if the US had occupied and made Mexico a US territory back then.
A US dominance couldn’t be much worse than what Spain gave them.
“Ben” offers:
“During WW2 we had American citizens serving in the military while their families were held in internment camps back in the USA.”
And you’re okay with that, “Ben?”
A couple of years ago the Los Angeles Times ran a story about how Army personel showed up at a mother’s door with news her son had been killed in Iraq. Immigration agents showed up next and arrested he for being an illegal alien. She’d been in the country for nearly thirty years, raised a family including a soldier who died for *his* country… but she was an “illegal” alien and was arrested and deported.
I understand all the arguments against illegal immigrants, but there’s something wrong with what happened to that woman who raised an American soldier who died for *his* country, isn’t there?
My earlier post simply addressed the proposition that, as *punishment* for crossing the American border, Mexican nationals should be sent to Iraq. If — and this is a big “if” — George WMD Bush’s little adventure into Iraq is a legitimate use of American military power, Jenna and Barbie Bush should be over there fighting long before we send criminals out to fight the “good” fight.
Part of the (albeit irrational) rationalization for Japanese internment during WWII was to protect Asians from fanatic racists who were all too willing to attack people of Asian descent for no good reason.
Sixty-five years later, I’m astounded that anyone who claims to be a patriotic American would associate military service with the natural consequence of so-called criminal behavior.
That’s a slap in the face of everyone who’s served in the military.
“My sister was working for the Social Security Administration when the 1986 amnesty was enacted. She said enforcement of illegal hiring lasted about two weeks before employers pressured congressmen to ease up on the law.
It wasn’t much of a problem to track down illegal duplicates of aliens’ fraudulent Social Security cards and other documents. But greedy employers had the pressure (and the campaign donations) to gut the law.
People don’t come to the United States to “take advantage of welfare, health care, or schools,” they come here to work. If you have a problem with illegal workers, your real problem is with those who hire people *illegally.*
Deal with the people who hire illegally and the problem’s solved.
But George WMD Bush and the Republic Party are wholly-owned subsidiaries of people who expoit illegal labor.
Posted by: MonkeyHawk | December 26, 2007 at 06:11″
Exactly why we need the SAVE act in congress as we speak. It will crack down on EMPLOYERS, making them accountable for hireing ILLEGAL ALIENS.
China is a Communist country and we dont give them asylum and they come hear illegally too
Speaking of Indains I read where they seceded and started their own country in South Dakota
IF the Republicans steal another election, I might have to check into South Dakota.
According to what i read if you recounce your citzenship you can move in and live tax free
http://afp.google.com/article/ALeqM5iVC1KMTOgwiSoMQyT2LwZc9HyAgA
I luv it when someone twists the argument around against the person with a legitimate point. There is always room at the inn for the legal immagrant. Not the freeloader who doesn’t want to follow the rules. I’m sure Mehler sits on her thrown of ignorance and tries to trash those who make a stand for what is right, but someday she will learn, probably when she grows up. Everyone wants to come to America, why, because we are a nation of laws, rules, and regulations that most people follow (most of the time) and realize what a nightmare that would exist if no one did follow those laws, rules, and regulations. Now we are all wrong to expect outsiders to follow those same rules that they want to benefit from. Don’t worry Mehler, you will see the light someday, the sooner the better if your lucky.
ChiefMexico passed legislation and agreed to a treaty with the United States, which reflects our current, Southern, border.
Human beings, of all races and religions, have been guilty of some pretty awful things.
Santa Anna was a tyrant. Many Mexicans preferred to be governed by Texas, rather than Mexico.
Sam Houston actually did a service, by removing cannibals from Texas.
Cortez, likewise, came in contact with many Cannibals. The Carribean is named after a tribe of Cannibals, the Carib Indians.
The Spanish did some awful things, but the Aztecs didn’t treat there own people very well. Human sacrifice was a large part of the Astec religion.—–”When Cortez spotted the center of religious worship, the sacrificial pyramid, he made his way up the hundred and fourteen steps with some of his best soldiers following close behind. Montezuma was at the top waiting for him. What Cortez and his battle-hardened men saw there shocked them like nothing they had ever seen before. Montezuma had just sacrificed some boys to keep the gods happy, and there was blood everywhere. Bernal Diaz, an eyewitness, describes the scene: “All the walls . . . were so splashed and encrusted with blood that they were black, the floor was the same and the whole place stank vilely. . . . The walls were so clotted with blood and the soil so bathed with it that in the slaughterhouses of Spain there is not such another stench.”1
http://www.americanvision.org/articlearchive/06-01-06.asp—-Plese understand, again, I do not claim that America and Americans can do no wrong.
I must insist, however, that we not paint those who settled, in America, in worse light than those who were here before us.
The title of this one is “Any room at the inn for immigrants?”
Sounds like you are wanting us to subsidize illegal immigration. This country was never meant to operate this way. It is based on Capitalism which is why our country has an overall higher standard of living, employment rate, and more technically advanced than countries that have been around for hundreds of years longer than us.
But to go back to the topic:
I and many other people feel there is room for LEGAL IMMIGRANTS, but why should everything be given to ILLEGAL IMMIGRANTS who the media seems to forget are here “ILLEGALLY”?
The key word on this topic was conveniently left off by the editors of this newspaper. The key word is ILLEGAL vs LEGAL was left off as part of this immigrant question.
Why should we provide for them? If you or I went ILLEGALLY to their country would they provide services (outside of a prison stay) for your or me? Would we get free medical and family assistance? Tell me what other country in the world provides for ILLEGAL (not legal) IMMIGRANTS who enters it?
As for who took or sold what land and when and from who, that was several hundreds of years ago and what does that have to do with this question?
Thats like saying your Great Great Great Uncle Fred stole a horse from Farmer John back in 1860 and you should be bearing the mark for that, nearly 150 years later.
“Robert Parham, executive director of the Baptist Center for Ethics, said: “We welcome the stranger because the Savior himself was not welcomed in mainstream society. The whole teaching of ‘no room in the inn’ was about someone poor and marginalized and pushed off to a stable.””
No, the story is that the government required everyone to return to the place of their birth for a census. Joesph and Mary were not homeless. The fact is that since so many were suddenly required to travel that the hotels/motels/inns were unable to accommodate all of the travelers.
AW: One small point, Canada never wanted to, nor was asked to leave the British Commonwealth of Nations and to complete that thought we also belong to the Francophonie the French equivalent. The former has much credence whereas the latter makes me wonder at times.