Evangelicals have spent the past several months anxiously searching for a candidate to back. Is Mike Huckabee their man?
When asked at the GOP presidential debate Wednesday if the candidates believe every word of the Bible, Huckabee gave the answer evangelicals look for: “Sure. I believe the Bible is exactly what it is. It’s the word of revelation to us from God Himself.â€
Huckabee also showed a deft touch in defusing a question about whether Jesus would support the death penalty. “Jesus was too smart to ever run for public office,†he joked.
But Huckabee also didn’t bash illegal immigrants or gays. Asked whether he would accept money from gay Republican groups, Huckabee said: “I need the support of anybody and everybody I can get.â€
Posted by Kristin Mehler
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254 Comments
Huh. Did Huckabee mention his special prediliction for lying about having worked to release convicted rapists (because of their supposed victimization at the hands of Gov. Bill Clinton) who then went on to rape and kill again?
http://www.arktimes.com/Articles/ArticleViewer.aspx?ArticleID=154e1aad-fd18-4efd-8d80-b5dab8559419
Nah. Didn’t think so. I just KNEW that Governor Huckabee would leave it to me to bring up.
I would LOVE it if he were the nominee.
“I would LOVE it if he were the nominee.”
OK, Huckabee has CF’s support. Anyone else?
Huckabee wants to ban miniskirts doesn’t he?
Anyone interested in what Huckabee is really like face to face should try this funny (but it actually happened) column:http://goupstate.us/index.php/lanefiller/2007/11/02/title_14
I will.
When are we going to get a thread talking about the Religious left?
Theres a religious left? Where? Is this a mythical creature like the unicorn?
Of course Huckabee is the religious reich’s man. He will continue to perpetrate this religious war against Islam. Do nothing about the economy. And bring us all one step closer to the end of days. Isn’t that what the GOP is all about?
Or maybe not…..he is smart after all. They prefer someone with the intellect of a basketball…..see George W Bush for example.
“Mike” –
How dare you denigrate the intelligence of a basketball!
Sorry moneyhawk. My most sincere apologies to the basketball.
Yet he beat the Democrat nominee.
Twice.
Yes Outlander.
It is the classic evil genius/idiot Bush.
He is smart enough to trick everyone yet dumber than a basketball.
It must really suck to be a liberal and think that the best you have still can’t beat someone you think so little of.
Can you count to 500,000 outie?
That’s how many more votes Gore got then bush.
JR,
Too bad the popular vote doesn’t elect a President.
Unfortunately, JR, we don’t have a national popular election; we have 50 state elections. And Gore lost the one in his home state.
In other words, by the rules in place, Gore lost. Ergo, Outlander’s statement that
“he beat the Democrat nominee.
Twice.”
is absolutely true. Try again.
Onfortunately they are correct JR. The people do not elect the President; the electors do. And PT Barnum was correct.
Hucklebee believes the planet is 6,000 years old and awaits the day his zombie Jesus will return and slaughter billions of people. Somehow I don’t think insane nutters should be running this country for another four years.
Then again Romney thinks you get your own planet after you die. Rudy thinks helping kill a bunch of firefighters makes you a hero. I guess Hucklebee is just the status quo for Republican candidates these days.
In Bush’s case the election didn’t actually elect the president. He was appointed by the Supreme Court.
Scott do you wake up everyday or just choose which days to arise all bright and sunny. Talk about last years topic.
Scott,
You left out this crucial bit of information:
The Supreme Court prevented the Florida Court from handing the election to Gore.
“Huckabee wants to ban miniskirts doesn’t he?”
Depending on who is wearing them sometimes they SHOULD be banned!
“Hucklebee believes the planet is 6,000 years old and awaits the day his zombie Jesus will return and slaughter billions of people.”
1) any evidence that Huckabee believes that?
2) even if true, how is that relevant to being President?
My favorite moment in the debate was Huckabee taking on Mit “Slick haired, flip flopping, will say anything to win an election” Romney. Huckabee defended his decision to allow children of illegal immigrants to have instate college decision, pointing out that the only way they will become tax paying productive members of society is by getting an education. He also pointed out that children shouldn’t be punished for the sins of ther fathers, they should be allowed to have a life. Ole’ Romney stuttered out the same stale jargon, but was unable to articulate a real point.
Also enjoyed seeing the above slick haired idiot being confronted for his flipflops on gays and abortion. Proves the man will say ANYTHING to win an election. He also had trouble answering a question directly.
Oh yeah, and Fred Thompson looks like a pale carcuss. Haven’t they learned anything about stage presense, makeup, ect, since Nixon debated Kennedy?
GMC70, that’s what fundies believe isn’t it? Huckabee already admitted he rejected the scientific fact of evolution and supports creationism. As for the entire Christianity thing he already admits that he believes in the Bible and is a Southern Baptist.
Where’s the confusion?
Huckabee seems very intriguing to me. Who knows, I might even be able to vote for him.
Huckabee is a kook.
He takes every single word in the bible LITERALLY. He said so last night.
That’s just plain crazy.
Which version? And which translation?
Doug,
No one I know believes that a “zombie Jesus” is going to return and “and slaughter billions of people.”
I would think someone who believed that to be crazy too.
Good thing that is not what we believe.
Ben,
How many versions and translations do you think there is?
It doesn’t matter how many times we have these dicussions, you guys keep saying the same thing over and over again.
Sigh….
JR,
Why is that crazy?
Please explain.
Whichever one the guy on you tube held up I guess. It just said “The Bible” on it.
Boy Romney got himself into it!
Did you see the bit with the Confederate flag?
Heh
What profiteth a man if he gain a few moderates and piss off the entire South!
The bible was written by people long ago of a different world. It has been many times translated and recast in the light of whoever was translating or transcribing it.
Sort of like that old game where you tell one person at a party a short story. By the time it goes through everyone in the room, it has totally changed.
I could see it as a valid GUIDELINE for a believer. But take it literally? No, that’s silly.
Nathan – there are different versions depending on which denomination you are in. I think the Catholics have some Books the Protestants don’t.
By the way – do you agree that pi = 3?
That is in the Bible.
Ben,
Every predominant Christian denomination uses the same exact Bible.
The Catholics use the same exact Bible.
They do have what I believe is called The Apocrypha.
It is not a different version or translation of the Bible. Merely different books the Catholic church accepts.
The Bible doesn’t say Pi = 3 either.
If you narrowly interpret a certain passage and ASSUME certain things about the data you can claim that.
Only those who seek to discredit the Bible ASSUME those things which are not explicit in order to say that Pi = 3.
Nice try though Ben.
JR,
You obviously have no understanding of Biblical history.
“The bible was written by people long ago of a different world.”
A different world? Really, if not earth then what world was it written on?
“It has been many times translated”
How do you know this? Do you have a number for how many times and the study you did showing that?
“and recast in the light of whoever was translating or transcribing it.”
Again, do you have any proof of your claim?
Where do you draw these conclusions from?
Nathan: pi is defined as the ration of circumference to diameter. With a circumference of 30 cubits and a diameter of 10 cubits you get pi = 3.
3 Kings.
Huckabee obviously doesn’t believe every word of the Bible, if he did he would have no choice but to stone Giuliani to death for his adultery. Anyway you score it, a person like Huckabee that seriously believes the earth is only 6,000 years old and that every single word of the genesis creation myth is true despite all the evidence to the contrary is a kook and not fit for the office of president.
Ben,
If you assume that there is not any rim or thickness in the walls.
I know exactly what verse you are talking about.
You are not the first person to think you are so clever to think that you “got me” by finding where the Bible supposedly says Pi= 3.
Well Nathan I am fairly certain it was not taken down in the Kings English the first draft.
The people who wrote it down didn’t even KNOW about England.
They also thought the Sun revolved around the Earth and that the Earth was flat. They didn’t even have a concept of other planets.
If you picked up say Luke and dropped him in our time he would think he had lost his mind.
And Scott gets the award for not understanding the difference between the Old Covenant and New Covenant in todays conversation.
There is always at least one.
JR,
“I am fairly certain it was not taken down in the Kings English the first draft.”
So you go from being “fairly certain” about that to making the conclusions you did how?
“the Earth was flat”
It has to be flat. Otherwise you could not have a tree tall enough to be seen from everywhere on earth.
Nathan,
This is offered for your consideration on the number of times the Bible has been translated. I trust JR will respond with additional information.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bible_translations
I thought it was common knowledge that there had been translations into Latin (the Vulgate) and into Greek (the Septagenuit (sp)); I was also aware that the Hebraic text of the Torah was translated to Aramic.
Ben,
Are you talking about the tree in Nebuchadnezzar’s DREAM?
Strike two Ben.
Want to go for Strike 3?
Nathan I have vowed to be kinder to people their faith.
But to argue that the Bible is unchanged over 2,000 years of travel through any number of languages and individual transcribers?
The printing press wasn’t even invented until the 16th century.
And let all that alone.
We have idioms,slang, figures of speech.
Do you not imagine that the ancients did as well?
Vaughn,
It is common knowledge, except to JR.
What is your point?
My point is that it was not like a game of telephone as JR envisions in his mind.
Huckabee didn’t say that he believed the bible was the literal word of god except for that whacked out Old Testament stuff. He said the entire bible was the word of god.
Everytime you bring up the truly crazy stuff that can be found in the bible, Christians will claim that the crazy stuff like stoning adulterers no longer applies somehow the genesis crap is still the literal truth word for word.
No; it was another one given to me by the same minister who told me about pi = 3. Home run 2.
JR,
You are trying to analyze the history of the Bible with no study at all.
There are scientific methods of looking at documents, comparing them to one another, and determining things.
The short version:
People copied things in scrolls. As a document, like many books of the Bible for example, were spread around you would have people who would rewrite word for word that scroll.
You can trace the circulation of something like that.
It is very accurate, especially when you compare the differing scrolls to one another.
After hundreds of years of doing just that, we compared many books of the Bible to the unearthed dead sea scrolls and found them to be accurate.
There are people who spend their entire lives studying this and the history of it.
I don’t even begin to know it all.
I do know enough to know that you are wrong when you sit here without giving it any study or thought at all and conclude that it is like a game of telephone and that the Bible must be wrong over all that time…
Ben,
I just showed you how you were wrong twice.
Do you have anything of comment to the points I made or not?
No you didn’t. 30/10 = 3
You cannot change that.
Ben,
I would be interested in meeting that minister. Are you talking about Chas?
Because any minister I know would have been able to answer those obvious and ran into the ground Bible challenges.
I know more of them too, and those were not even the good ones.
Huckabee is one of those nutters that believes in the Tribulation. He got the support of the nut who stamped his name on the Left Behind series, Tim LaHaye.
Nathan, by providing the link to the “Wiki” article I was merely offering the same as evidence for many translations.
The same with my “common knowledge” post.
As to the “telephone” allegation, I wasn’t addressing that. I offer my recollection from the Judaism class I took as an undergraduate that before the books of the Torah were set in writing, the same were subject to the oral tradition, similar to that of the Odyssey, that is, the wise elders (or one of them) heard the words, memorized them, and then would repeat the same. At some point, they were written down, if I may use that phrase. Given that the Dead Sea Scrolls (again, from recollection) have shown various alternate versions of some of the books of the Old Testament, it is not unreasonable to presume some change from the original version as told by the first teller until the same was set to writing.
Of course, I’m addressing the Old Testament only; the New Testament was set to written form relatively quickly.
Ben, you know mathematics is just a theory like evolution. If the bible says, which is does, that pi equals three then your godless, anti-christian textbooks are wrong.
Ben,
Where does the Bible say that 30 / 10 = Pi?
You are trying to take a descriptive passage from the Bible which was not a blue print and make that assumption like it was an exact blue print.
You fail to take thickness of a rim or wall into account.
Again, any commnet on that point or not?
Pi is defined by everyone as the ratio. And the Bible says circ = 30 and D = 10.
I am assuming nothing; it is YOU who is making assumptions. My comment is on point – just not in YOUR mind.
Doug,
The Bible doesn’t say that Pi = 3.
You have to draw that conclusion on your own by refusing to take into account that the passage is a discriptive one and not a ablue print where things like thickness of the rim or wall are not taken into account.
Nathan – if that passage is not supposed to be a ‘blue print’ then why should we assume that other ones (like 7 days) are?
By the way – since the 30 cubits is ‘all around’ that would be the outside circumference. So, if I try to take thickness I either get pi = 3 (diameter being to the outside) or LESS THAN THREE (diameter being inner diameter)
Nathan, it’s pretty well understood how Pi is calculated. Your whining doesn’t change that fact. Thank goodness you don’t do any engineering.
Ben,
The verse says that the vessel had a brim that was wrought like the brim of a cup.
If you take into account the measurement from brim to brim of a rim like that it will not equal Pi when compared to the circumference of the body.
So, the measurements you are using wouldn’t equal Pi.
How far are you willing to stretch whatever you can to try to discredit the Bible?
Talk about being desperate and unreasonable.
Doug,
I am not whining and the discussion is not about how to calculate Pi rather the validity of the numbers you are trying to feed into the equation.
That’s pathetic Nathan. Is that the best you can do?
That’s pathetic Doug. Is that the best you can do?
Nathan – if the circ ‘all around’ is 30 cubits then there is no way you could have any sort of ‘across’ (diameter) of 10 cubits.
“Talk about being desperate and unreasonable.”
Yes, that is PRECISELY what you are being.
Getting Pi by measuring ratio of the circumference to the diameter of a circle is constant. Your statement that the bible says otherwise doesn’t change that fact. No matter how you measure a circle you’ll still get Pi.
Ben: Write the value of pi. Write it out. All of it. Have fun.
If the complete value of pi was used, the Bible would have to have ended right there in Kings since pi goes on infinitely.
It is clearly an approximation. Even cubits is an imprecise measure based on a portion of a man’s forearm.
And something with the measurements being described could also be accurately described as basically circular.
Back to the topic:
http://www.mcclatchydc.com/homepage/story/22339.html
Suggests that Huckabee, by staying clear of the mud-slinging, may do well in Iowa.
“It is clearly an approximation.”
But the seven days is precise?
So the Bible is absolutely accurate and inerrant, except when figures are rounded. Fundies can’t have it both ways. Either the Bible is 100% accurate or it isn’t. So either Pi equals three in the Bible or it doesn’t.
I give you a good example of how the Bible likely changed during transcription Nathan.There are what some 300 odd different sects of Christianity? And that’s just the bigger ones.
That’s all those groups having a slightly different take on the same book.The Mormons felt it was incomplete.
Do you imagine for a minute that that didn’t happen before and probably lots of times lots of ways?
Ben,
Yeah you could.
30 divided by 3.14 = 9.55
Now that would be the diameter of the body.
Now add a rim which is slightly larger, say 10 cubits across.
Thus you have your brim to brim of 10 cubits and diameter of 30 cubits.
Makes perfect sense.
JR,
Having a different interpretation doesn’t prove different translations.
The clash between Fundamentalism and traditional Catholicism, and the clash between Fundamentalism and traditional Protestantism (Anglican, Episopalian, Presbyterian, Methodist, Luteran) is somewhat healthy.
The Fundamenetalists do force the rest of us believers to explain ourselves.
“Peter, you are rock, and upon this Rock I will build my Church, whatsover you bind on Earth Shall be bound in Heaven, whatsover you loose on Earth Shall be loosed in Heaven”.
I believe Peter was teh first Pope.I know that the Church was the publisher of the First Bible.I leave it to the Publisher to interpret the Book.
Those who actually wrote it do not speak to me very often. ;)
Wrong as usual Nathan. The OUTSIDE diameter is 30 cubits. So, the outside diameter would be approx 9.55 cubits. How do you fit in 10 cubits?
typo – OUTSIDE CIRCUMFERENCE
Ben. I’m testing your logic. Here is the passage. In order to have been precise, what would the value X been?
1 Kings 7:23 He [Solomon] made the Sea of cast metal, circular in shape, measuring ten cubits from rim to rim [diameter = 10] and five cubits high. It took a line of X cubits to measure around it.
Nathan, your bible doesn’t say 3.14, it says three. Look it up.
“And he made a molten sea, ten cubits from the one brim to the other: it was round all about, and his height was five cubits: and a line of thirty cubits did compass it round about.”
3.14 isn’t correct.
It would have been approximately 31.4159… cubits. SIGNICANTLY more than 30 cubits.
You are correct that with an irrational number you cannot be precise; perhaps if they had said ‘about’ or ‘roughly’ or ‘approximately’ …
But we are being literal here.
Ben,
The measurement of “day” vs a “cubit” is an entirely different thing.
When we say that the Bible is 100% the word of God we mean it is the divinely inspired word of God and that what it says is the truth.
Even assuming that the measurements were an approximation has no bearing on the entirely different book and verse where the word “day” was used should mean a literal day.
Two completely different things.
Proving something about whether or not the measurements of that vessel were an approximation proves nothing about creation.
Ben,
What part of adding a rim to it don’t you understand?
Here is a picture:
http://www.northwestoutlet.com/images/04208.jpg
If you measured from brim to brim on that cup it wouldn’t equal Pi when you used that number in the equation with the circumference of the body.
Do you understand yet?
Even the most devoutly religious person, whose advice on moral teaching would be trusted by almost everyone, should not be consulted as a paramount expert on matters not related to faith.
This was true in Biblical times, as well.
Therefore, dont take the Bible literallly, especially in areas that do not relate directly to faith.
Ben,
You are not being literal. If you were being literal you would take into account that the measurement was from brim to brim on a rimmed vessel.
That is going to make the diameter larger than that of the body where the circumference is measured.
How many versions and translations do you think there is?
It doesn’t matter how many times we have these dicussions, you guys keep saying the same thing over and over again. Sigh….
Posted by: Nathan | November 29, 2007 at 04:51 PM
========================Nathan, there are dozens if not hundreds of translations!! You know that — or at least you should know that!!
Of course, if I account for thickness then X could be 32 cubits … 33 … or more.
Doug,
The Doesn’t say 3 at all. You have to place numbers incorrectly into an equation to get that number.
Try again.
The Bible already said it was measured brim to brim and it came out with an even number. Was there another brim outside the brim that was measured?
Chas,
Not in the way JR is saying, no.
Nathan, in first Kings where exactly are you deriving some numbers other than 30, 10 or three?
Nathan – the thickness makes the inner diameter SMALLER, not larger. And the ‘all around’ is clearly ‘around’; that is, outside.
In other words; the rim would make pi even LESS than three.
Doug,
On a rimmed cup, measuring from brim to brim will be larger than diameter of the main body.
You do know what a rim is don’t you?
Should I post another picture for you?
Nathan, in first Kings where exactly are you deriving some numbers other than 30, 10 or three?
Nathan, “ten cubits from the one brim to the other”. Where’s the second brim?
Ben,
How so?
Did you look at the picture?
Do you even know what a rim is?
A rim is going to extened farther outside the main body. Thus if you measure the diameter from brim to brim of the rim it will be larger than if you did the main body.
You are trying to feed the wrong numbers into the equation for Pi.
That is why you come up with 3 instead of Pi.
Doug,
There is no 3 in the verse at all.
Thirty divided by 10 equals three Nathan. Sorry I had to point that out. However you are seeing some other numbers, where are they?
Wow…
What a zoo.
A Christian trying to argue about the Bible with one person whose sole intention is to mock those who do believe the Bible, another person whose sole purpose is to discredit the Bible, and an alleged Christian minister who won’t even tell you what he believes about Christ.
I have made my points on this.
I have shown you pictures and explained how you are wrong.
It is obvious that no matter what I say it will fall on deaf ears.
Yes nathan, I looked at your stupid coffee cup. And yes, nathan, I know what a rim is.
Unfortunately, you are just too blind to see that the 30, being ‘all around’ is the outer part of the rim. So, the diameter all the way out there would be less than 10. And any inner diameter would be even less.
It is you who is feeding the wrong numbers into the equation to make your 30/10 fit.
Five plus two equals seven Doug. Sorry I had to point that out. However you are seeing some other numbers, where are they?
Yes, what a zoo. A guy who cannot even do Jr. High arithmetic making things up to make the numbers fit.
Ben,
How do you know the measurment of circumference was around the rim?
“Five plus two equals seven Doug. Sorry I had to point that out. However you are seeing some other numbers, where are they?”
Talk about inane!
Depends if it was a sunny or a cloudy day. :D
In Hebrew the regular word for “line” in “a line of 30 cubits” is spelled with two letters.
The first with a numeric value of 100 the second with a value of 6.
In 1Kings7:23 it is spelled with three letters, the third with a value of 5.
111/106×30cubits= 31.41509 which differs from true pi about .015″ on about 45′, less than the thermal expansion due to a cloud passing between the brass and sun.
Because it said ‘all around’. Had it been inside the vessel it would have said something like ‘inside the vessel’
Ben,
What am a making up to make the numbers fit?
There is no equation in the verse. The verse says nothing about Pi equaling 3. You take two arbitrary numbers, assume they are the correct numbers for diameter and circumference that you would use in relation to one another and then plug them into the equation for Pi and say that it doesn’t work.
My goodness man. Don’t tell me I can’t do Jr. High artihmetic and that I am making things up.
We are simply arguing over the validity of putting those numbers together for the equation of Pi.
Doesn’t mean I can’t do math.
kansas – you are going to have to tell me where you got the 111/106. Are you telling me they used different units for the two measurements (like yards and meters)?
So in addition to biology, physics, astronomy, geology, anthropology, paleontology, and chemistry Nathan doesn’t accept mathematics as well.
This is the sort of person that would support Huckabee.
Nathan – so you are telling me it is incorrect to say that Circ/Dia = pi?
Ben,
All around what? You are assuming “all around” meant the rim.
The Bible makes no such distinction.
Nathan, if we’re calculating Pi wrong then tell us the proper way to do it.
kansas – I would accept 31.41509 as close enough if I could figure out your derivation.
Ben,
“so you are telling me it is incorrect to say that Circ/Dia = pi?”
No, where have I said that?
Nathan – and therein lies the problem. Anyone reading the numerous Books can read any meaning into them they want.
Just what does all around mean?
Ummmm minor point of order… Not Solomon, nor any other O. T. figure would have had teh foggiest clue what Pi means… Pythagorus didnt discover Pi until Centuries after Solomon!! The only other place that seems to know about Pi, is in the Great Pyramid of Giza…
Doug,
If I am wrong on saying that you need to take the circumference around where you measured the diameter in order for them to equal Pi, please tell me the proper way to do it.
Nathan lets just say that they didn’t have a Stanley tape measure so the measurements couldn’t be as exact as todays measurement. You won’t win this one when you consider who you are trying to explain things to.
Sometimes it is best to let them wallow in their ignorance.
Ben — Many of the older translations into English used a form of direct translation from Hebrew(or Greek) into English…
30 cubits all around should be accurately translated 30 cubits in circumference. It was a description of a CIRCLE
Ben
“Nathan – and therein lies the problem. Anyone reading the numerous Books can read any meaning into them they want.”
How so?
I am not reading anything into this. You are.
I am pointing out that you are wrong to conclude that the Bible says Pi equals 3 because YOU are the one trying to read into it in order to do so.
Now you turn around and use that as the proof of how people can read anything into what the Bible is saying?
Of course you could try to read into anything, not just the Bible, doesn’t make it correct.
“Just what does all around mean?”
I don’t care.
That would be correct Nathan, so what is the problem? The verse gives the figures of 30 for the circumference and 10 for the diameter therefore the only conclusion is three. However you are coming up with something else.
It’s all pretty straightforward or is the FSM changing the results on us?
One thing all of us can agree on:
Pie are not square. Pie are Round!!
Ksgrm,
You are correct.
Nathan, our lib friends always try to confuse an issue. They’ve been telling the same lies so many times that they truly believe them. They accuse Christians of believing that the earth is flat when in fact the book of Job says that the earth was round. It was the non-Jewish scientific community that thought the earth was flat. A Christian named Christopher Columbus proved them all wrong.
kansas – changing the subject a bit. Some time ago I read a fascinating interpretation of the first part of Genesis written by a Jewish cosmologist at MIT. One thing he noted is that it doesn’t say “evening and morning of the first day” but rather refers to “Day One.” He points to that as indicating that time also began at the beginning.
He then worked with time compression at near-light speeds to calculate what a “day” would be after the Big Bang. (remember, we don’t know Who lit the fuse for that).
His conclusion: Day One was over a billion years. Subsequent days were shorter as things ‘cooled down.’ The fascinating thing about it is that, if you take the writings in a ‘non-literal’ or ‘non-precise’ sense the sequence of events roughly parallels our currect understanding of the evolution of the Universe.
I’ll have to see if I can chase down that web site again.
Doug,
If I give you the circumference of the middle of a cone and the diameter of the top of the cone are they going to equal Pi?
kansas – you are going to have to tell me where you got the 111/106. Are you telling me they used different units for the two measurements (like yards and meters)?
Posted by: Ben | November 29, 2007 at 06:35 PM
Well, it was used to consider line distances that varied by width.
Standard cubit numeric value being 100 with the value being 6.
The three (letter or symbol) has a value of 5.
The values meaning the extent of the line at the start of a concentric ring and the value of the extent of the second concentric ring. (i.e. a simplified radians utilizing linear segments)
Thusly, the 111 is the whole of the line (all extents included) and the 106 is the initial point of the line (with one extent included)
Therefore the 111/106 X 30 represents differences of the two diameters divided by the circumference with the result of 31.41509.
And if one divides the diameter into the “trued” circumference, the one gets the approximation of pi at 3.14509
pi = c/d
What we are looking at is a wheel, I think, that has a core circumference of 30 cubits and two “bands” which circumscribe the core.
Like a wagon wheel I suppose?
Doug, the reason it works out the way it does, is because nobody has come up with an iron clad definition of the EXACT measure of 1 Cubit… It is generally agreed that a cubit is approximately 18 inches…
ksgrm, that would be saying the bible isn’t 100% accurate.
Chas – and cornbread are square!
Chas, if that’s the case then the result is still 3.
As I pointed out before, NONE of them could have been figuring for Pi, since nobody knew what Pi was at that point in history!!
So, actually, it is a moot point!!
What it says to me, is that Solomon made one pretty darned big cauldron… approximately 180 inches across… 15 Ft.
And trying to have this conversation with Doug, Ben, and Chas is like trying to drive a square block into the hole for a circle…
http://aish.com/societywork/sciencenature/Age_of_the_Universe.asp
Yeah, we are stubborn because we actually are taking the bible for what is says. You are just too stubborn to admit that the bible isn’t 100% accurate. You can say it’s 99% accurate and just wrong on this aspect then it wouldn’t be an issue.
I’m guessing Ben that if we look at a simple atom with the nucleus being the center point and concentric rings being the flow for the electron cloud, the first ring is the actual strongest point for the simple element.
The next ring out would represent the start and stop for the next energy level.
It’s my theory that the measurement means a clever way of looking at the construction of an element for the purposes of doing something spiritual. :)
Quatum mechanics however, is not my strong suit, so I’m going to get a bite to eat now before I burst a brain vessel. :D
If the metal workers added a very narrow piece of tapering around the outside edge of the Cauldron, it could “possiby” work out to 30 cubits in circumference.
Doug, the actual measure of a Royal Cubit, was the distance from the King’s Middle finger, to the tip of his elbow…
And yes, that would change, with whoever happened to be King at that point in time…
Most confusing to a world like ours where we demand exact measures for everything!!
Can we all agree that Solomon ordered one BIG pot made to be put in that new Temple??
“The Torah doesn’t say every second, does it? It says Six Days. How would we see those six days? If the Torah says we’re sending information for six days, would we receive that information as six days? No. We would receive that information as six million million days. Because the Torah’s perspective is from the beginning looking forward.
Six million million days is a very interesting number. What would that be in years? Divide by 365 and it comes out to be 16 billion years. Essentially the estimate of the age of the universe. Not a bad guess for 3300 years ago.”
Oh fer heaven’s sake!
How many angels can dance on the head of a pin?
You never can win an argument with Nathan on the literal truth of the Bible, because he always has a trump card: an omniscient God can do what ever She wants.
Don’t believe that Noah could put all the animals of the world into a home-made ark?
God can do it.
Don’t believe that the sun stood still?
God can do it.
Don’t believe that Red (actually “Reed”) Sea parted and let the Israelites cross?
God can do it because He can do anything.
Nope, God can’t drive out the people of the mountain because they had chariots that were made of iron. Judges 1:19
So god can’t do everything, the bible says so and the bible can’t be wrong because god is perfect, all knowing and all powerful.
And the contradiction goes on and on and on.
ksgrm, that would be saying the bible isn’t 100% accurate.
Posted by: Doug | November 29, 2007 at 06:45 PM
Doug that would be saying that we have different terms and more exact measures now than then. You don’t know after all if it is metric which would change the whole thing.
CapN I have often wondered how the kangaroos, duck billed playpus’s, and penguins managed to find their way to that wilderness where Noah built that barge of his…
kansas – changing the subject a bit. Some time ago I read a fascinating interpretation of the first part of Genesis written by a Jewish cosmologist at MIT. One thing he noted is that it doesn’t say “evening and morning of the first day” but rather refers to “Day One.” He points to that as indicating that time also began at the beginning.
He then worked with time compression at near-light speeds to calculate what a “day” would be after the Big Bang. (remember, we don’t know Who lit the fuse for that).
His conclusion: Day One was over a billion years. Subsequent days were shorter as things ‘cooled down.’ The fascinating thing about it is that, if you take the writings in a ‘non-literal’ or ‘non-precise’ sense the sequence of events roughly parallels our currect understanding of the evolution of the Universe.
I’ll have to see if I can chase down that web site again.
Posted by: Ben | November 29, 2007 at 06:44 PM
Yeah Ben, that’s like we don’t have certain words for things in the English language. However, the Eskimos have several words for snow.
We modern day people are just finding out there are different types of snow and name them thusly and even get anal about it by defining the crystal structure. :D
Because there were no “appropriate” words back in the days of the Bible or at least words that we no longer know about, a lot could be misinterpreted.
Now, back to my Reuben that I’m making, I heard the bell “ding” on the toaster oven. :)
granny, we KNOW it wasnt metric… It was a cubit, and I just posted what a cubit is believed to have been… also a royal cubit…
Hey – I’ll take that Reuben!
Doug,
The verse doesn’t say that God couldn’t drive anyone out because of Iron chariots.
ksgrm, actually the result would still be the same.
I’m knowing that those who actually believe the bible is 100% accurate just haven’t read it. I guess you guys will have to put out another version again to correct the errors like you have done with previous versions. The thing about math, it really doesn’t ever change.
Doug,
The verse doesn’t say that God couldn’t drive anyone out because of Iron chariots.
Hey, I’ll see you that Reuben, an raise you one Benjamin… LOL
“And the LORD was with Judah; and he drave out the inhabitants of the mountain; but could not drive out the inhabitants of the valley, because they had chariots of iron.”
Hmmm, it seems pretty clear to me. However I wasn’t raise to wear bible blinders.
Doug,
The “he” was Judah, not God.
You are not wearing Bible blinders.
You simply have no reading comprehension skills when it comes to reading it.
granny, we KNOW it wasnt metric… It was a cubit, and I just posted what a cubit is believed to have been… also a royal cubit…
Posted by: Chas. | November 29, 2007 at 06:57 PM
Chas you take your self much more seriously than you should. I was making light of a stupid conversation. Get it?
Doug Nathan and you could have this discussion all night and it wouldn’t change a thing. I will believe the bible literally and you are free not to. I give you my permission. OK?
“And the LORD waswith Judah, and he took possession of the hill country, but he coykd not drive out the inhabitants of the plain, because they had chariots of iron.”
Nope it wasnt the mountain people — it was the people of the plain.
So having the entire power of god behind you really doesn’t mean much does it Nathan?
Kansas is that rueben as good as the ones they make at Merles?
Funny, Grm, it didnt LOOK like a joke…
BTW, the verse cited above is Judges 1:19 — English Translation of the Masoretic Hebrew Text.
Doug,
It means quite a bit Doug.
ksgrm, you believe bats are birds then and beetles have only four feet? Yeah, you haven’t actually read the bible or else you just don’t believe in zoology either.
Nathan, it doesn’t mean much if you can’t whup a bunch of guys because you and your buddy god are overtaxed by some guys in iron chariots. I mean one guy can kill tens of thousands of people with a jawbone but if they had an iron chariot then that would be too much.
Oh great,
So what verse says that bats are birds and beetles have 4 feet Doug?
Nathan, do you ever read your bible?
Lev. 11:19Lev. 11:21-22
I wasn’t even going to ask Nathan. I believe he has the new science fiction bible.
Chas when was the metric system of measurement first used? That might be a good place to start.
I’m really not sure what your stance is here but then you are a mystery most days.
Doug — Check out Genesis 30:25 – 31:21 — OT genetics at its finest :-)
There are a number of serious problems with reading The Bible as a historical document.
For instance, “let my people go!” thunders Moses (who looks just like Charleton Heston btw). The thing is that the Jews were never enslaved by the Egyptians. Egypt was not a slave society. They kept very good records and there’s not a word about enslaving anybody, let alone ancient Israel.
But even more problematic are the huge inconsistencies in The Bible itself. Consider this passage from Exodus in which THE LORD (Yahweh) demands that Moses become the leader and the prophet to the Israelites–
19 And the LORD said unto Moses in Midian, Go, return into Egypt: for all the men are dead which sought thy life.20 And Moses took his wife and his sons, and set them upon an ass, and he returned to the land of Egypt: and Moses took the rod of God in his hand.21 And the LORD said unto Moses, When thou goest to return into Egypt, see that thou do all those wonders before Pharaoh, which I have put in thine hand: but I will harden his heart, that he shall not let the people go.22 And thou shalt say unto Pharaoh, Thus saith the LORD, Israel is my son, even my firstborn:23 And I say unto thee, Let my son go, that he may serve me: and if thou refuse to let him go, behold, I will slay thy son, even thy firstborn.24 And it came to pass by the way in the inn, that the LORD met him, and sought to kill him.
******
This makes no sense whatsoever. THE LORD demands that Moses confront Pharaoh and free his people, but then He promptly chases him down and seeks “to kill him [Moses].”
This is the kind of motiveless capriciousness one finds in pagan gods like Zeus or Gilgamesh, perfectly appropriate for the time when gods were just big, powerful versions of people, but it makes no sense given our present apprehension of what God is . . .
The Metric system as we know it came out of Europe MUCH later than the times of the OT… Trust me on this one… Solomon’s measurements were based on what they called the Cubit… And the Cubit was measured as I posted previously… There was the Royal Cubit, that changed with whoever was King, and then there was a “standard” cubit — approximately 18″
However, the Eskimos have several words for snow.
We modern day people are just finding out there are different types of snow and name them thusly and even get anal about it by defining the crystal structure. :D
Because there were no “appropriate” words back in the days of the Bible or at least words that we no longer know about, a lot could be misinterpreted.
Posted by: Kansas | November 29, 2007 at 06:57 PM
Language becomes neither more complex nor more simple. Across culture and time, language remains equally complex and sophisticated.
Every language can express every idea and concept.
This is what linguists have determined over decades of study.
CapN — That is a most interesting point… An astute observation, as well… one little teeny tiny point of order… What Moses was actually asking was that the people be allowed to “take time off of work” for a religious observance.
Pharaoh was not inclined to give Personal Days… even though it had been given in the days of Pharaoh’s Father before him…
Now, as to what happened to Pharaoh, I have always found it a bit disturbing that GOD hardens Pharaoh’s heart against Moses… GOD does it… And then turns around and Kills Pharaoh’s first born son!!
And not only that MOSES himself was NOT circumcised, and thus could not eat the Passover with the rest of them… For only one circumcised could eat the Passover…
It is really great mythology!! And there are really interesting meanings… Many of which are explained extremely well, in Joseph Campbell’s, “The Power of Myth” available at all fine book stores…
Metric System Article >>>>
origins in 1790’s France…
http://members.aol.com/profchm/metric.html
That IS interesting, Chas. And as you no doubt are aware, it is Moses’ wife, Zipporah, who stands up to this irrational Yahweh by quickly circumscribing her son and throwing the bloody foreskin at Moses’ feet.
I have no idea what THAT is all about, but I get the feeling that Freud and Jung and Campbell could expound on it at some length . . .
Anybody here ever read Martin Heidegger on Metaphysics and Linguistics?? Fascinating reading… Many years since I read his works on that… But very full of a vast amount of work in the area of language, and meaning, across languages, cultures, and even religions…
Chas.,
Language is the house of being. Or, more precisely, language is one manner through which being discloses / unconceals itself. Technology would be another one, though with the caveat that the manner in which it discloses being is as ’standing reserve’–i.e., as something merely instrumental. Heidegger calls this ‘the danger,’ from which being (hopefully) will provide some ’saving power.’
Not a big fan of Heidegger, actually, but I agree that he’s useful and important.
Chas one last time – it wasn’t a serious post as was the one about the metric system. Get a grip. You take yourself way way to serious.
Thank you for straightening all here out on the Myths of the bible. I guess this means you are a teacher of mythology.
Finally a slot that fits.
Every language can express every idea and concept.
This is what linguists have determined over decades of study.
Posted by: CapnAmerica | November 29, 2007 at 07:23 PM
Express nothingness.
Express begin
Express end
Express the concept of measuring the distance between electrons at a single point in time.
Express time
Express life
Express death
Express truth
Express belief
:)
Well I just watched some of the debate. Huckabee is a little extreme on the bible, but that’s o.k.. Rather extreme here than in smoking dope, getting drunk, or dodging the draft.
He lost me with his response on immigration and allowing illegal children to attend schools at taxpayer expense. His reponse was strictly a democratic one, “I believe we as a society have advanced far enough where we do not have to hold the children responsible for the sin of the parents.”
EHHHHNT!
He’s gone.
Yes, and particularly Freud and Jung
Maybe not an exact quote. I’m questioning if he used the word “sin” in his response. That wouldn’t be very democratic.
Kansas is that rueben as good as the ones they make at Merles?
Posted by: ksgrm | November 29, 2007 at 07:06 PM
Probably not as mine is baked with margarine ‘painted’ on rye bread. Plus I don’t eat it with any dressing on it – just as is.
The “seven words for snow” example was an observation made by Benj. Whorf that became evidence for the Sapir-Whorf Hypothesis.
This is the concept that language is such a strong influence on human thought that it actually shapes how we interpret the world. According to the strong form of this Hypothesis, people who speak different languages interpret the world slightly differently.
The Whorfian Hypothesis has been largely displaced by the Chomskian view that language originates in the human brain (cognitive linguistics) and that therefore every language is essentially the same (language universals).
This view is further supported by noting that any language is equally able to express concepts. The Eskimos may have seven words for snow, but so do we–snow, sleet, freezing rain, powder, slush, hail, ice, etc. etc.
A refutation of the “Eskimos have many words for snow” myth:
http://www.derose.net/steve/guides/snowwords/
I believe the poster making the Eskimo myth statement got his degree out of a box of cracker jacks.
“The Whorfian Hypothesis has been largely displaced by the Chomskian view that language originates in the human brain (cognitive linguistics) and that therefore every language is essentially the same (language universals).”
Yes, but isn’t that Chomsky a liberal – can’t trust those bastards. :)
Eskimo is a very impercise term and includes several different cultures – it would be akin to saying that Europeans have 10 words for snow – there at least that many distinct languages.
Capn’s post is an example of how science views theories/pradigms as temporary vs. religion which tends to view its explanations as unerring and permanent. This is true despite the great number of posters here who do not understand evolution, or science, for that matter.
pradignms = paradigms
How funny. Any comments made about the actual topic of this thread are completely ignored. Instead a two hundred post long mud sling about biblical inherancy that will never change a mind, and only serve to further inflame people.
Clever.
Just for the sake of it, Ronald, that was Huckabee’s statement that won me over.
Grm, what in the hell is your obsession with getting your jabs in at me?? I am not taking you seriously here, since you dont accept my knowledge or experience or expertise in the subject at hand… Why would I take you seriously?? eh??
Chas it could be because my nic is Ksgrm and you either call me grannie, germie or whatever name you can think of. Why should I take you seriously and think you can read or understand what you read.
If you can’t stand the heat….
Chas, as a man of God, Reverend, who believes that Jesus is the Christ and died for your sins -
could at least be courteous when addressing another poster, such asksgrm.
You do believe, don’t you Chas?As a Christian?
Doug that would be saying that we have different terms and more exact measures now than then. You don’t know after all if it is metric which would change the whole thing.
Posted by: ksgrm | November 29, 2007 at 06:56 PM
============================
So, this is what you considered a joke?? Hmmmm…
By you saying: “that we have different terms and more exact measures now than then,” is no different than what I am constantly doing here when I say that it depends on your interpretation of your faith, for which you constantly belittle me, and my faith, and my particular knowledge and espertise… But when YOU do it, we are all supposed to recognize it as a joke?? Yea, right… I forget… you seem to have different rules for yourself, than you want to allow for others!!
And on the idea of measurements, I am not even disagreeing with you!!
Just for the sake of it, Ronald, that was Huckabee’s statement that won me over.
Posted by: jb | November 29, 2007 at 08:50 PM
So J R, I mean JB, you will be voting republican?
Chas did you bother to read the post. I answered your question about why I question your credentials and IQ. Because you are constantly doing that not only to me but to others on the blog. I typed that real slowly. Did you get it this time?
Ben, back to you on the 5 and 6 measurements for the cubit.
Basically, it goes like this the 5 represents the arm measurement only, no hand and the 6 measurement is based on the hand and arm for 1 cubit.
The term cubit Charles used as 18 inches is primarily a Roman based unit.
I prefer to use the older Sumerian units which Abram (Abraham) came out of that civilization. Thus, they carried the system of measurements with them.
There were other measurements that were only used inside the temples, but I can’t find anything on that.
Anyway, based on Sumerian units and leading up to the cubit.
Sumerian Units
uban is the thumb = 20mm
palmthumb and palm = 4 uban = 80mm
uban qat
thumb and hand = 100mm
cubit
ku ordinary cubit 500mm not counting the uban (thumb hand)
kus cubit 600 mm hand and arm
Thus the difference the two letter description, ku and the three letter description kus. Which the difference between the two is 100 mm or the width of one “thumb hand” measurement.
Thusly using the Roman Cubit of 18 inches or 457.2mm or 18 inches (with 2.54 cm to the inch and 10 mm to 1 cm) we can see the measurement become problematic because the Roman cubit is based on several civilization measurements.
I prefer the Sumerian based cubits as it is based on the oldest civilization that can be directly related to the Bible.
The people measuring the pot would have known of the 5/6 ratio of the arm only and the arm/hand measurement for the cubit and utilized it in their measurements.
i.e. split the difference.
Besides, 500 mm for a short cubit (KU) and 600 mm for a long cubit (KUS) are much easier to deal with. :)
Kansas, actually, Abram(Abraham) came out of the Chaldean Empire, not the Sumerian one… But other than that, you seem to have managed to translate cubits into Metric measurements…
Reverends have shure changed they way they talk. I’m thinkin STFU means “Shut the f*ck up.”
Chas, just what kinda church do you pastor, pastor?
I was thinkin there was sumpin about no unwholesome word somewhere in the Bible. I’m guessin he doesn’t believe that ol’ book anyways.
As to the main theme of this thread, I think the evangelicals would be more likely to rally around Huckabee, than around Romney, the avowed Mormon. Mormon theology just doesnt fit in with the Evangelical Theological model.. It is WAY to far out on the edges of “christian” thought…
I mean, even Liberal Christians dont have to have their own Holy Book, because we dont think the Bible is complete enough.
That seems to be the specialty of Mormons, and Christian Scientists.
Merles Reubens? wow ksgrm, now I want one BAD, wish you hadnt brought it up!
Snow stuff by the Inuits
http://www.sfs.nphil.uni-tuebingen.de/linguist/issues/5/5-1239.html
Chas was never a preacher (excuse me, Reverend Chas). That’s the running joke on the Weblog.
He is a wanta bee preacher.
The kind that asks you if you want “paper” or “plastic” at Dillions, and then fills your bags. On a good day your bread will be stacked on top of your eggs separately.
Well, well, Tater… And just how would you be able to determine what I meant when I only typed 4 letters… I guess that shows where YOUR mentality is, eh??
I see……..
I guess that short lil fuse attached to his dirty lil mouth is why he’s a wanna be and not a really be. Prolly not many believin folk would put up with that.
Kansas, actually, Abram(Abraham) came out of the Chaldean Empire, not the Sumerian one… But other than that, you seem to have managed to translate cubits into Metric measurements…
Posted by: Chas. | November 29, 2007 at 09:18 PM
That may be true Chas, I’m rusty on that history.
However, I do believe Abram came out of Ur, which was a Sumerian City. the Chaldeans came along later about 1000 years after Abram left the area of Sumeria.
O, I think we all know what you meant preacher Chas. You don’t seem to have to much trouble communicatin’. Your pride won’t let you repent of your mouth and temper. I’m thinkin’ it’ll be your downfall, though.
Kansas, Check out Genesis… Abram is CALLED out of UR of the Chaldees!! Why do you think I said what I did??
Or maybe it was already.
Genesis, Kansas I think that is in the bible that isn’t factual. Won’t help you to check there.
Have you checked the price of bread and eggs lately? Or milk?
All this ethenol is doing is jacking up prices on food, and not resolving the fuel problem one bit!
Corn mash too!
Tater, I’m thinkin that you and ol’ Pat there type like a couple of good for nothing drunks!! You type like you need to go sleep it off somewhere!! LOL And, furthermore, if you think you KNOW what I mean by typing 4 freakin letters of the alphabet, then YOU sir, or madam, have one huge mental deficiency, and you should probably get it looked into soon… before you hurt somebody!!
BTW, I have seen stories on THREE internet Libel cases in the past few weeks… ONE of them was involved with bloggers defaming other bloggers… A Court ruled that the anonymity of the Blog is not a reason to permit defamatory statements…
You know… like the kind you and your old buddy Pat throw at ME all the time??
My lawyers know about you two… You may, or may NOT hear from them — if your CRAP doesnt stop…
Argue with what I post… Leave my profession, and your defamatory comments OUT of it!!
THAT sir/madam, is a Warning…
Kansas, Check out Genesis… Abram is CALLED out of UR of the Chaldees!! Why do you think I said what I did??
Posted by: Chas. | November 29, 2007 at 09:29 PM
I understand Chas. It’s like saying my grandmother came out of Oklahoma which is sort of true, because she was born in Oklahoma Territory before Oklahoma became a state.
Geographic names often do not match up with the time line of events as I have found. :)
Like Virginia, it was all Virginia before the civil war.
And during the time of Colonial Virginia there were great spats between Virginia and Pennsylvania as both declared Western boundaries as far west as Michigan.
So such linkage of names and geographic boundaries or reigns seldom bother me now and give me greater perspective on how to look at a region. :)
Warning, Chas:
Your own mouth defamed you.
Sue your mouth.
Kansas — Genesis 11:31-32
Oops, forgot to include that the writers of the book in Genesis would have only known that the Chaldeans were in charge then or at least accepted it.
All I remember for sure is that UR is Very far south of what was the Sumerian Empire, and IIRC, was a birth place of some of the later Sumerian Tyrants (umm Kings) IOW, UR of the Chaldeans would have been way south at the very southern most tip of modern day Iraq
***, what in the hell is your obsession …Posted by: Chas. | November 29, 2007 at 08:56 PM
I have had it with your nonsense, and your obvious mental depravity… If you dont have something to contribute, just do me and others the common courtesy to STFUPosted by: Chas. | November 29, 2007 at 09:13 PM
YOU are one lying worthless IDIOT!!YOU xxx, need some really good psychiatric help…I do believe it is YOU who are the pagan non-believer…See, you jerk….
YOU, SIR/MA’AM ARE NOTHING BUT A WORTHLESS LIAR!!Posted by: Chas. | November 29, 2007 at 09:26 PM
Matthew 15:18-20
Hey there commenttator!
Can you really sue your own mouth?
I’ll run that by my lawyerS, if you have already run it by your distinguished law firm.
I’m certain a minister/preacher/reverend (MPR) would be great for my career image.
I’m in.
Oh neVERmind Commenttator, I’ve been advised by my lawyer.
We are both right in a sense Chas.
However, as you can see by the timeline, Abrah(Abraham) left the Ur area of Babylon several hundred years before the Chaldeans showed up.
As I said, the writers of the book of Genesis probably lived during teh Chaldean times? I dunno..maybe and referred to Ur as Chaldean.
reference:
“1900BC-1500BC During this period a Semitic group of nomads migrated from Sumer to Canaan and then on to Egypt. They were led by a caravan trader, the Patriarch Abraham, who became the father of the nation of Israel. Ishmael was a son of Abraham had by Hagar. Isaac was a son of Abraham by Sarah. Hebrews trace their lineage through Isaac, Arabs through Ishmael.
Chaldea (from Greek ???????, Chaldaia; Akkadian m?t Kaldu, Arabic ?????? )[1][2] “the Chaldees” of the KJV Old Testament, was a Hellenistic designation for a part of Babylonia, mainly around Sumerian Ur, which turned into an independent kingdom under the Chaldees. Known as “Ur of the Chaldees,” it went on war campaigns against foreign dynasties ruling southern Mesopotamia, mainly the Akkadians and the Babylonians.
The 11th dynasty of the Kings of Babylon (6th century BC) is conventionally known to historians as the Chaldean Dynasty. Their kingdom in the southern portion of Babylonia lay chiefly on the right bank of the Euphrates.
1000BC Chaldeans traced their origins to about this time in Babylon.”
Hey Comment Tater!
I’m posting undercover so Chas cannot use this in a court of law. I’m really Pat Herron (PH).But acid will work for secrecy.
Yeah, anyway. I spoke with my lawyerS and they said something about blood and a turnip.
Not sure what they meant, but when I told them Ch was unemployed, maybe part-time at Dillons and not really collecting anything off a collection plate, it seemed to take the air right out of them.
Personally, if it can’t hit the newspapers (at least the front section) and there is no money in it, then I am not pushing anything.
They did laugh when I told em what Ch had posted. They really were into the vegetable thing because they mentioned the turnip again.
Well everyone, I have been gone for a few hours.
But wanted to add good night!God Bless, and whatever you make up politically correct to be able to DISAVOW belief in God!
Remember! There are only 26 days until Christs birth day celebration!
Need to start trimming those trees, get the lights out, and storing up for the festivities!
Remember this:
God’s Word is His Word and he wants US to know it – so we know HIM!
It is of no private interpretation. It interprets itself: In the verse, in the context, or used before (early verse).
He even elevates His WORD above HIS name, because He wants so badly for us to KNOW HIM.
So give it a shot!
Recently, the Dead Sea Scrolls were viewable in Kansas City at the Union Station. I saw them. Pieces. The book of Isaiah from the King James version today – is nearly identical to the pieces painstakedly pieced together from a scroll, in a container, in a cave, buried 1,000 + years ago!
There are lot’s of changes and PEOPLE in between.
Interpretation from the original tongues to English? Wow!
We had to go through a few earlier versions to get to King Jimmy.
Just the Greek writers:
Elzevir, 1624Griesbach, 1805Lachmann 1842Tischendorf 1865Tregelles 1857Alford 1868Wordsworth in 1870 version
Imagine that! Just the greeky guys!!!
God so wanted us to know HIM, that he made damn sure the devil didn’t/couldn’t completely stop those that wanted to know Him, learn His Word.
Just think how on your PC, Bill Gates (a version) of MS Word allows you to CHANGE things. Think about this blog – how things get conflicted, changed, re-arranged – and even REMOVED!!!
But God so loved the World that he Gave.
Get shopping! We have so much to be thankful for!!!!
“So J R, I mean JB, you will be voting republican?”
Try to have a conversation on the subject of this thread and I get accused of being someone else as a troll.
How pleasant. Not exactly a great forum for honest discussion here.
Boy I bet you think you are clever Ronald. “The first letter of the intials are the same, so he must be a troll!” Great job trying to unmast the villain scooby. “There is no way that a real republican could have different ideas than me on immigration! He must be a liberal poster in disguise!”
We had to go through a few earlier versions to get to King Jimmy.
Just the Greek writers:
Elzevir, 1624Griesbach, 1805Lachmann 1842Tischendorf 1865Tregelles 1857Alford 1868Wordsworth in 1870 version========== Pat Herron ==========
Umm, genius, those “greeky guys” are all AFTER King James!! Good grief!!
Oh gee, Jesus said no one comes to God but by words in a Book eh?? Youre leaving out something there, dunce!!
“God’s Word is His Word and he wants US to know it – so we know HIM!” (Pat Herron)
“He even elevates His WORD above HIS name, because He wants so badly for us to KNOW HIM.”(Pat Herron)
“I Am the Lord Your God; You shall have no other gods before me..”
Except for Pat… He thinks a BOOK of words is more important than the name of GOD…
Yea, a real genius mind at work here… Based on what you said on the other thread, Pat Herron, you dont even believe in celebrating Christmas…
I wont bother to post your garbage here… People can go read it for themselves…
Good Night; Good Luck; and God bless; whatever you conceive God to be!!
Blessings of Christmas to all!!
Say goodnite a few more times Gracie.
(you moran!)
Umm, genius, those “greeky guys” are all AFTER King James!! Good grief!!
Posted by: Chas.
Chas I never said they didn’t. Just open your King James Version.Look at the very front the Epistle Dedicatory (hail to the king). His Majesty had it translated out of the original tongues and “former” translations.
These were from the Greek. The only way you can get back to the greek is the greek translations.
(I cannot believe I am telling this to a supposedly training theologian)
There is a book titled, “The Interlinear Greek-English New Testament”. Published by Zondervan, George Ricker Berry.
Within this book, is the King James version of the Bible. Also, the Greek language. Why is this important? For anyone wanting to know the truth – what God’s inspired believers wrote originally, we have to go back to the original translations. Cannot easily do this. What language did the original God Inspired writers use? But we do have several Greek versions – from the tongues and used by the King Jimmy writers.
Back to the book. This book shows the various DIFFERENCES whenever each word is interpreted DIFFERENTLY by the different scholars who wrote the Greek.
(understand that task: They spent their LIFETIMES, researching and writing each of their own Greek versions) Huge.
Anyway, it’s sorta like this blog. Read JR, Chas, Herron, Max, Capt America. Now take all their words and line them up. WHere they agree – no markings. Where they are NOT in agreement the books PROVIDES the differences in language, so you can see it!
Chas. All you are doing is name-calling and putting me down. And CAPS.
That demonstrates you have stopped learning, listening, or even considering.
No longer rational in thought or deed. Very unChristian and anyone following can see that.
I am a Christian too. My knowledge of the bible in all my years is comparable to one page of the Indian paper it is written on. I learn more everyday. I am a lowly servant.
But at least I admit it.
Except for Pat… He thinks a BOOK of words is more important than the name of GOD…
Uh Chas: Our Lord God Himself (the big guy) magnified his word ABOVE his name. Why is that? Because it is the ONLY WAY TO COME TO KNOW HIM…..
Psalms 138:2
for thou hast magnified thy word above all thy name.
All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works. (2 Timothy 3:16-17)
http://www.ancient-hebrew.org/31_psalm138.html
God said it. I believe it. That settles it.
So Chas, how can you look at yourself in the mirror? After saying/posting what you post?
God’s Word put his word first!!
Pat Herron, you dont even believe in celebrating Christmas… Chas
Chas: Please do not lie or make things up. I never said that. In fact, I told people to go buy lot’s of presents for the holiday!
It is tradition and some rememberance of Christ’s birth.
But the truth is (Romans 10:9-10) we should be really celebrating the fact that Jesus Christ GOT UP after dying. Therein lies our salvation. That he died and rose again – that is the biggest celebration, and the purpose God had forordained from Gen 1:1 for him man.
So, Pat, you freely admit that you know very little… and yet, you would be so bogus as to lecture ME?? I’ve had an interlinear Gk. NT for more than 30 years… But not in King James… it is too flawed… I wont use a King James, unless that is all that is available….
The original tongues are hardly just GREEK, silly man/woman….
There are a minimum of THREE versions of the Hebrew; there is the Masoretic Hebrew; and two others; there are some OT books written in ancient Ugaritic… There is the Septuagint (Greek OLD Testament); There is the Textus Receptus; There is the Latin Vulgate; There are the Germanic versions.. Guttenburg; Luther; and Melancthon, to name three… And then there are the dozens of English and Olde Englysch Translations… There is a Saxon NT… You have much to learn about translations….
And then, there came the great discovery of the Dead Sea Scrolls… and the Qumran documents… the ancient pieces of what became known as “Q” —
And we found manuscripts that nobody even dreamed still were in existence… And those fragments made more new translations possible….
Your Interlinear King James is but a tip of the iceberg of biblical scholarship!!
IF you want to learn, then open your mind, and allow the information available to flow into your mind, and learn the mysteries of the faith!!
I have been reading the old languages since 1973, and I still learn something new every week, and every month…. There is always something there to be learned…
And if you study, and keep your mind open, you will find out that the book does NOT in fact interpret itself… It does in fact many times raise as many questions as it answers… how terribly exciting!!!
Merry Christmas!!
Chas: Please do not lie or make things up. I never said that.
Ummm Yea, you did… Do I have to go and get the post here you ranted and raved against Christmas!! calling it pagan!!
God’s Word put his word first!!
Posted by: PH | November 30, 2007 at 12:10 AM
======================
Wrong Pin Head.. Some ancient WRITER did that… and that writer was wrong!! THINK before you type…. WHO/WHAT is the “WORD” PH???
Hint: it aint in the OT!!
The original tongues are hardly just GREEK, silly man/woman….
Chas
I never said otherwise. So we agree. Accept I didn’t result to name calling.
PAT HERRON DEBUNKS CHRISTMAS!!
NOW CLAIMS HE NEVER SAID IT… PAT NEEDS NEW MEDS FOR HIS SAD ILLNESS >>>>>===========================Ummm Kev, actually, Dec. 25 – Jan. 6, is Christmas Just thought I’d throw that in… :-)Posted by: Chas.
Chas you lie. You put your own ego above God’s Word!
Actually, Jesus Christ was not born anywhere near December/January. We use the Gregorian calendar which was adopted and decreed by Pope Gregory XIII, for whom it was named, on 24 February 1582 via the papal bull Inter gravissimas.
Jesus Christs birth was foretold IN THE WORD and IN THE STARS. The alignment of planets and stars foreTOLD his birth. Think about this. How else did THREE WISEMEN travel across a desert in ancient times – and arrive AT THE BIRTH!! To see the child in the manger?!!(No garmin/no email/no interstate)They followed the stars!!!!!! As foretold (they are for times and seasons, the moon and stars).
(And shepards are not in the field in the winter season. They are only out in the fields with their flocks during the warm season – big duh!)
December 25th. Where did that come from? Paganism. Mostly from the catholics. In Rome they worshipped many gods before Christ revealed Christianity. Christmas in NO WHERE in the bible.
I could go on and get into some very serious bible verses to support this. But the point is: It is not important what specific DAY Christ was born – only that we remember and believe it.
It’s not for the glory of Chas or Pat – but for you.
The celebration in late december that Christmas came from is the winter solstice. The ancients knew the sun, moon, stars, and planets. They didn’t have channel 6 news. No TV. No PC. They lived and worshipped their gods base upon the world around them. Solstice and equonox are big days for them!
The winter solstice was called the winter nativity of the Sun! THe sun-gods from Osiris to Jupiter and Mithra celebrated their birthdays!
In Rome, it was konwn as Saturnailia – Saturnd being another name for Nimrod (Tammuz).
Long story very short (very), the pagans became Christians but adopted and modified their existing cultural events into their Christian beliefs.
Ohhh there is so much more to share with you!!!
The Christmas Tree? We all know it has jack shit to do with Christ. Right? An old Babylonish fable: Semiramis, the mother of Tammuz, claimed that overnight, an evergreen tree sprang up from a dead tree stump. The stump symbolized her dead husband Nimrod. The new tree symbolized that Nimrod had come to life again!!!
Eventually, the Scandinavian god Woden or Odin was believed to bestow special GIFTS at Yuletide to thos ewho honored him.
It’s all common sense and nothing mysterious.
Chas needs to stop putting his ego before God’s quest for all who seek the Truth to Know the Truth.
Anything less is serving the fallen one.
Posted by: Pat Herron | November 29, 2007 at 11:10 PM
=========================So, you still want to LIE and say you didnt debunk Christmas??? At least Christmas as we know it??NOWHERE in your rantings do you even SUGGEST celebrating the Birth of Christ!!
So, there it is in your OWN words!!! Have fun now!!
Ahh yes, its time for the WEBlog Sock Puppet Ballet, and their special Holiday performance of the “Dance of the Sugar Plum Faeries”
DANCE sock puppets… DANCE!!!
Wrong Pin Head.. Some ancient WRITER did that… and that writer was wrong!! THINK before you type…. WHO/WHAT is the “WORD” PH??? Chas
You are obviously loosing it. Time for bed. If you are any sort of man at all, you will review the verse and apologize in the morning. I gave you two quotes from the bible.
Now you decide to say “ancient men” wrote it. So you throw OUT the verse I provide – but substitue nothing from His Word.
Apologize for lying about Gods word would show you are a man and not perfect.
Wrong Pin Head.. Some ancient WRITER did that… and that writer was wrong! Chas
For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.2 Peter 1:21
Chas you cannot always be right.You have a huge ego problem. It interfers with the truth. No WONDER you have no parish.
I lived nest door to a hard shell, landmark baptist preacher in Ohio… He wouldnt let his kids come in my house during christmas time… he put out the same line of BS you put out in that post above, Pat Herron… We had an “evil” christmas tree… We had decorations all over… We had christmas carols on all of the radios in the house… We had gorgeous wreaths on the front door, to welcome the Christ Child… And, worst of all, we had an advent wreath in our living room window…
That man’s kids were brainwashed into believing that My house and My family were the next closest thing to devil worshippers that they would ever see!!
And when I put my outdoor tree in the front yard, the man came to my fron door, with his huge old King James Bible, and started to preach to me how it was EVIL for me to put out christmas decorations, and anything to do with christmas!!
THE SAME KIND OF BS ARGUMENT THAT YOU POSTED HERE TONITE, PAT HERRON!!
You are the closest thing I have seen to a hard shell, landmark Baptist in MANY years…
I do feel great pity for you… for you will be so enraged over the celebration of the season, that you wont even grasp the great message of the season!!
So, you still want to LIE and say you didnt debunk Christmas??? At least Christmas as we know it??Posted by: Chas
See the key words “at least” that you yourself wrote.
I didn’t debunk Christmas. Those are YOUR words. Not mine.
I have never met an ordained preacher with an ego like yours or so determined to prove another Christian wrong.
Pat Herron, I dontknow what is wrong with your brain… You DID debunk Christmas!!! YES of course those are MY words, because thats whats your RANT was all about… Debunking everything that is a part of the Christmas traditions!!
How DARE you call me a liar, when I just Posted what YOU posted on the other thread!!!
THAT POST WAS YOUR RANTING… not mine!!
YOU sir/ma’am are the Liar here!! I am going to bed now, because I dont want to read ahy more of your lying rants!!
Ordained ministers often point out lying and liars when we see it… especially when it is as blatant as what you have posted here tonite!! And YOU put ME down for my faith??? Hypocrite!! SPIT SPIT
NOWHERE in your rantings do you even SUGGEST celebrating the Birth of Christ!!Posted by: Chas.
Um Chas: This is in my original post:
I could go on and get into some very serious bible verses to support this. But the point is: It is not important what specific DAY Christ was born – only that we remember and believe it.
It’s not for the glory of Chas or Pat – but for you.
Just a link to my original post.Please note: I have done no name calling on this issue.
I didn’t put Chas down, I only questioned and disagreed with him.I did call him a liar. That was because he stated the date of Christs birth – authoritatively. I have no problem with him posting his beliefs – but he doesn’t know what day Christ was born than any other scholar on earth! To that: I have to call them as I see them. Sorry Chas.
http://blogs.kansas.com/weblog/2007/11/dumb-new-fronts.html#comment-91780986
I didnt state a date for the birth of Christ, lunatic… I stated when we celebrate Christmas!! Big difference dumbkopf!!
So, you lied by calling ME a liar!! And you debunked Christmas, and tried to use Bible verses to validate your perversion!!
Dont even TRY the stupid Nathan games on me… You arent smart enough for that!!
And now you start nic switching along with it!! Sounds too darned much like bi-polar to me!!
Chas–
These trolls like PH and Kansas have 1. no life, so they 2. find people they can needle by any means possible so they can 3. get their idea of jollies from an otherwise entirely worthless existence.
Any kind of personal vulnerabilities will be set upon with piss and vinegar to enflame and irritate as much as possible.
That’s why one of them went after WriterDog’s son today (he’s enlisting and will no doubt be shipped out to a war zone). That’s why they go after JR’s son and call JR a “bad example.” That’s why they go after me by calling my son — who served in Iraq — “a baby killer.”
They dish out the worst kind of insult and then when you react like any normal human would, they lay into you because you’re not acting “like a pastor.”
The best way to handle it is to not dignify that kind of puerile crap with a response.
Not easy to do, I grant you, but the more you post here, the more you’ll find that what was once seemed like a major irritant becomes only the distant drone of a mosquito’s wings . . . a stingless mosquito at that . . .
There was a poem on one of the Moody Blues albums that had the lines–
“Bedsitter people sit back and lament,
“Another day, useless spent.”
That’s Kansas and Pat Herron in a nutshell . . .
Actually . . . “uselessLY spent.”
Oops.
Capn:
You have become my hero by summing up the entire days rantings that lead nowhere! As is always true the beholder is the final judge.
The problem with you Capn is that you are a paranoid putz.
You think I’m every other poster on this board who makes remarks you don’t like.
The post I made on this thread were mainly limited to a discussion with Ben about pi issue in the Bible and in response to Chas about Sumeria and Chaldee.
I have no idea why you keep assigning trolls to my name, but you done a pretty good job smearing my name and convincing others I’m every other troll on this blog.
If you were a real man, you would find you can’t just blame others and have nothing to back it up with.
Your obsession with me borders on insane stalking practices.
Maybe it’s because you switched so many nics back in the day when this blog first started and want revenge?
I don’t know the reason, but as I said before, what you see when I log on is my nic and the only one I use.
But please do be happy with be paranoid in your life, it exactly fits your ideology.
g’morning kansas – did you get a chance to try to wade through that guys interpretation of the time line as presented in the Torah? I found it fascinating … and this would be another of those topics to kick around over coffee sometime.
How was the Reuben?
Bedsitter people look back and lament
Another day, uselessly spent.
g’morning kansas – did you get a chance to try to wade through that guys interpretation of the time line as presented in the Torah? I found it fascinating … and this would be another of those topics to kick around over coffee sometime.
How was the Reuben?
Posted by: Ben | November 30, 2007 at 09:46 AM
Not yet Ben, but will do. I think that would be an interesting topic as well.
The reuben was quite filling and tasty. :)
I added extra cheese so I could get my daily allowance of fat. :D
You had to mention that rueben again. I am off to Merles for lunch but I will be getting mine with no cheese and lots of 1000 Island dressing. The darker the bread the better.
‘brown’ mustard is good too
Mike Huckabee as a former Baptist minister doesn’t even believe what the Baptist church believes that the Bible is the infallable word of God. He believes it’s made up stories. Look up the definition of Allegorical or Allegory as Mike Huckabee describes the Word of God.