All the attention went to the offense taken over what Gov. Kathleen Sebelius said about Kansas wine during a Seattle appearance last week. She had other observations about Kansas, though, recalling that at the time of her 2002 election, “I think Kansans, like many American people of a variety of faiths, were alarmed at interference by those who sought to impose their tenets of belief in our public life. If you want to teach creationism, do it in a theology course, but don’t interfere with science classes.â€
She also said: “Most Kansans consider themselves religious — and connect with a specific religion — but don’t want religion practiced in the courtroom or the public schoolroom. A lot of people felt that social justice, the (Iraq) war, poverty — the plight of the least of our brethren — should be what people of faith concern themselves with.â€
Posted by Rhonda Holman
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47 Comments
Uh oh.
More dead obvious common-sense from the Governor.
Now the “Christians” will show us why Jesus wants us to hate each other . . .
She is “Opportunistic” and only speaks within the current situations and only agrees with those who are within eye/ears shot at the time. She believes in stealing and stomping on our basic rights. She is a follower as a so called leader. She is her Husbands Federal Mouth Piece. She is a “Personal Agenda Tyrant”!!!! Herbert West III, west.herb@yahoo.com See http://www.wen2k.com/tell.php?Id=808 .
As for kansas wines, I spent 13 bucks on a bottle of dry table wine at Paxico. One sip and it was down the drain. That’s how BAD it was. The wine you can buy on the interstate at the Smokey Hills outlet isn’t much better. It has an overtaste like fortified Mogen David, to be kind, or gasoline, if not. How they win awards, I can’t understand. Perhaps they rebottle California wine and submit it to contests.
>>Uh oh.
More dead obvious common-sense from the Governor.
Now the “Christians” will show us why Jesus wants us to hate each other . . . <<
Oh yeah. My brother and I have these conversations - the ones about Kansas “Christians” an the wonderful impact they have on government and society all in the name of “God.” He now lives in another state and likely will never return to Kansas, certainly not as long as his son is still in school since every other election the state school board becomes a platform for the religious right - to heck with educating children.
Oh, and before someone responds that the state is better off without my brother the “liberal,” he’s a former Marine officer with a double PhD who works military contracts for IBM. He’s exactly the kind of well-educated, committed American this state drives away in droves.
Now, all you real patriots go back to your FOX cable news programs, sit awash in the wisdom of Bill O’Reilly making your contribution to God and country.
If you want to teach creationism, do it in a theology course, but don’t interfere with science classes.”- Guv
Chuckle… Haven’t got that straw man beat yet?
ah smells leyears and spillt wine!!
’bout time Kathy started growing a spine.
Would be cheaper to use cardboard cutouts of our Kansas Governor with tape recorder and speakers hidden behind. Place one in front of every county courthouse in Kansas issuing her politically correct platitudes that could play in any state.
“If you want to teach creationism, do it in a theology course, but don’t interfere with science classes.”- Guv
Chuckle… Haven’t got that straw man beat yet?”
Outlander, I question your ability to identify a straw man argument. Are you familiar with the Wedge Document? The Governor’s comments are dead on correct.
On the other hand, the wine comment (bad joke and not so much).
Actually, Madison Avenue Steaks & Chops in Iola serves a Kansas Cabernet (Kabernet?) that goes well with a medium-rare KC strip.
But other Kansas wines I’ve tried… eh.
Other than Sebelius-haters will jump on anything to express their disdain for our twice-elected, dynamic Democratic governor, I suspect they resent an “elitist” who actually appreciates a good wine. But what can you expect from people who show up at church and the Welch’s grape juice is Jesus’ blood?
>>Now the “Christians” will show us why Jesus wants us to hate each other . . . <<
Actually Capn, most Christians don’t hate at all, some do. Most of us just wish that you and others who despise the acts of some so called Christians, would put down the sword and join us in feeding the hungry and caring for the sick. Together we could actually make progress in fighting the things that are really wrong with our country. It matters not what your political views are, doing good and loving our neighbors should be the common goal of all human beings that have a heart!
Do you have a website or something Ksam?
I might try to help you all out some time. Works I mean, not cash.
Kathleen likes churches to get involved, when she agrees with them.Kathleen doesn’t like churches to get involved, when she disagrees with them.
Tough, Churches have EVERY right to get involved in every policy issue.
“Econ101″ –
Your church has “EVERY right to get involved” as long as I don’t have to pay more taxes to cover for the money churches *don’t* pay for property, pastors’ salaries and Learjets (as in the case of Falwell and Robertson, et al).
Every level of tax code — from income taxes, property taxes, sales taxes, etc. — subsidizes religion.
Now, in the grand scheme of things, it’s not all that much. I don’t make that much money and most of what I pay in taxes goes to programs I generally agree with: healthcare for the poor, a secure retirement for the elderly, the FBI and the military (for the most part)…
But why am I paying more of my share simply because some outfit is a *church*?
I’d rather have the option to drive by the Nazareens and throw ‘em a nickel than have their religion subsidized by me under the force of law.
So let’s have it your way, “Econ101.” “Churches have EVERY right to get involved in every policy issue,” so long as they don’t do it on my dime. Uh, nickel.
If churches want to be political, they shouldn’t get to suck my tax dollars off. If they earn my financial support, they’ll get it.
Monkey
You are simply wrong.
Every Church has every right to comment on every policy issue.
The Church can not endorse political candidates.
The Church can not make political contributions.
That is IT, that is the limit of their restriction!
MonkeyYou have very, very twisted logic.
The IRS does not agree with you now, and it never has!
It is NOT “your dime” —
“The right of the people, peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances”
Most petitions START in CHURCH, and they have since the founding of our country!
“Kathleen likes churches to get involved, when she agrees with them.
“Kathleen doesn’t like churches to get involved, when she disagrees with them.
“Tough, Churches have EVERY right to get involved in every policy issue.”
Your comment, Paul, is pointless. I could just as easily say:
“Tough. Governors have every right to get involved in every policy issue.”
Of course churches have the “right” to advocate on policy issues, but like any other entity that does, they are fair game for criticism when they do. Part of that criticism can be the expression of an opinion that the church’s involvement (in, for example, science education) is inappropriate (which is not the same thing as saying such involvement should be illegal).
“If you want to teach creationism, do it in a theology course, but don’t interfere with science classes.”
This comment is the expression of opinion regarding behavior.
“Monkey
You are simply wrong.”
About what?
“Every Church has every right to comment on every policy issue.
The Church can not endorse political candidates.
The Church can not make political contributions.
That is IT, that is the limit of their restriction!”
Uhm, where did monkeyhawk say that churches were legally prohibited from participating in policy issues. Project much?
KSagnostic
Monkey WANTS such a policy change.You can not read his post and take it any other way.
Jesus’ crucifixion was the result of the political choice made by an angry mob who chose to save the life of a political assassin, Barabbas, and to revile Jesus. In two thousand years not a lot has changed for people who choose the politics over faith.
Golly, golly, I felt like my life was more at danger on those Missouri highways than 911.
Kansas Wine sucks.
Sebelius is just another politician. She is putting herself in position in case Obama wins the nomination. All she is angling for is a step-up to the national stage now that she cannot run for governor again.
As for her remarks, about as much substance as a G. W. Bushism.
ksagnostic,
In light of the recent ‘outing’ here no the WEBlog, perhaps you could restrain yourself from using someone’s real name.
“KSagnostic
Monkey WANTS such a policy change.You can not read his post and take it any other way.”
You just changed the entire premise of your discussion with Monkeyhawk. Your earlier response only makes sense in the light of the claim that Monkeyhawk was claiming that churches could not, now, legally participate in policy discussions and promotion. You claimed Monkeyhawk was wrong about the law as it currently is. Now you are trying to argue that Monkeyhawk wants to change the law. You just moved the goal posts.
And Proudman, MPS used to post under his name on this blog. The letters are, I would presume, his initials, and when he started posting under those initials I asked him if he was the person who used to post under the previous name, and he replied in the affirmative on this blog.
I did not “out” anyone.
However, if MPS does not want me posting his full last name, and that is why he went to his initials, I will respect his wishes.
JR..
Yes, just click on “kansassam” and it should take you there!
thanks!!
“”"Kathleen likes churches to get involved, when she agrees with them.Kathleen doesn’t like churches to get involved, when she disagrees with them.
Tough, Churches have EVERY right to get involved in every policy issue.”"”"
Churches have NO right and NO business getting involved in the affairs of state. Not as long as they are tax exempt. I am of the view however that churches should not be tax exempt. They are a business just like any other business and they should pay income and property taxes like any other business. Then they can be political.
“Econ101″ –
If you’d enrolled in Econ *102* you might have learned about how tax policy works.
Government needs money, tax money, to operate. As soon as government give some people a tax break, the rest have to pick up the difference.
Okay. So maybe it’s in the best interest of society (sounds like *SOCIALISM!!!!!!* doesn’t it?) the tax code gives people a deduction for mortgage interest or business expenses (you know, like a Cadillac Escalade).
Every deduction you take when you file your income tax return is a write-off that means somebody else is paying *your* tax burden.
Hell, you didn’t need to take Econ 102 to figure that out. You simply had to grasp 2nd Grade arithmetic.
Every tax break given to every church results in a shift of tax burden to any enterprise that is non-church.
My church doesn’t pay property tax, but can still rely on the property tax-funded fire department to respond if a blaze breaks out. Do the math, “Econ101,” assuming you’ve advanced beyond 2nd Grade.
Whether you believe in ‘em or give to ‘em, every televangelist on those cable channels you don’t pay any attention to is sucking dollars out of your wallet because *you* are paying his taxes and *he* is taking deductions allowed by the Internal Revenue Service.
Those of us who went on and took Econ 102 learned that. Too bad you didn’t pass muster.
“”"Actually Capn, most Christians don’t hate at all, some do. Most of us just wish that you and others who despise the acts of some so called Christians, would put down the sword and join us in feeding the hungry and caring for the sick. Together we could actually make progress in fighting the things that are really wrong with our country. It matters not what your political views are, doing good and loving our neighbors should be the common goal of all human beings that have a heart!”"”
Well golly gosh! Let’s all just be honky dorey nice to one another and care for the sick and dying among us. Sounds really nice. Unfortunately most Christians got out of that business long ago. Christianity now is just big business. That is all it is. Those who hock it do so at a very tidy profit. Remember when, if you was a church member and you got sick or lost somebody in your family, the preacher would come to the hospital to see and comfort you? Now he is off on his own personal jet to play golf in Florida at his second home (a mansion owned by the church of course to keep it tax exempt). Christianity is great but religion is for idiots.
“Every deduction you take when you file your income tax return is a write-off that means somebody else is paying *your* tax burden.”
That is absolutely false.
I meant CHRIST is great but CHRISTIANITY is for IDIOTS
With all due respect, MonkeyHawk, your analysis is flawed.
Tax breaks don’t necessarily result in tax revenue reduction. The Reagan TRA of 1986 fostered long-term government revenue growth for all of the 90’s. (And please insult yourself and others by trying to tell me that Slick Willie’s economic policies had anything to do with that growth.)
Secondly, tax reduction coupled with spending reduction (oh, how I wish…) means there is no difference for someone to pick up.
I have a dream….
if you was a church member and you got sick or lost somebody in your family, the preacher would come to the hospital to see and comfort you? Now he is off on his own personal jet to play golf in Florida at his second home (a mansion owned by the church of course to keep it tax exempt). Christianity is great but religion is for idiots.
Posted by: Kev | November 11, 2007 at 03:49 PM
You must have some really odd churches in your area Kev.
It’s hard to track down our Pastors as they are either doing weddings, funerals, visiting hospitals, homes or care centers.None of them golf and one is scared of flying. Evidently, you haven’t been around the type of churches I’ve attended Kev and that’s too bad.
>>Every deduction you take when you file your income tax return is a write-off that means somebody else is paying *your* tax burden. <<
Are you suggesting that we all pay the same “burden,” MonkeyHawk?
“KSGolfnut” –
Ronald Reagan never, in 8 years in office, presented a balanced budget to the Congress.
Bill Clinton achieved a balanced budget.
So which side are you on?
Unlike you (I presume), I have read David Stockman’s book. He knew at the time that supply-side economics was great poltics and disastrous policy.
Still is.
What astounds me is how relatively normal Kansans who make $40-$60 Grand a year and are doing okay somehow think it’s thier mission in life to prevent billionaires from paying their fair share of the cost of government.
What astounds me is how relatively normal Kansans who make $40-$60 Grand a year and are doing okay somehow think it’s thier mission in life to prevent billionaires from paying their fair share of the cost of government.
Posted by: MonkeyHawk | November 11, 2007 at 04:23 PM
Another false statement.
I do believe that tax code is presented to Congress and they vote on it.
The average Kansas will probably never get to see said tax code unless they make a point to. Therefore, they cannot have a mission to do anything if they can’t even describe what it is they are to do.
>>>Now he is off on his own personal jet to play golf in Florida at his second home (a mansion owned by the church of course to keep it tax exempt). <<<
Kev,
If my pastor has a personal jet, he must have paid for it with his other job. We don’t pay him much, and we don’t own his home.. heck, we don’t even have our own church building.
Okay, “Kansas” –
You wrote:
“The average Kansas will probably never get to see said tax code unless they make a point to. Therefore, they cannot have a mission to do anything if they can’t even describe what it is they are to do.”
Responding to your absurdity often boggles my mind, but you’ve outdone yourself.
So unless “the average Kansas” (sic) doesn’t make a point to read the tax code they’re s#it outta luck? No, “Kansas,” they tend to refer to their accountant or tax-preparer… who has looked at the tax code.
A few years ago my accountant advised me that if I got a second mortgage, paid it off in 30 days with my savings, and upped my contribution to non-profit organizations, I’d come out ahead when April 15th showed up. I’m nowhere close to the big leagues when it comes to income and taxes. But I kinda suspect someone with a billion dollars has a better tax advisor than mine.
The govenment gets its money regardless if you have tax attorneys on staff or go to your local CPA or knock on the door of H&R Block at 11 pm on April 14th.
Thing is: the government will get its money. And everyone who pays less results in people who pay more.
The Republic Party’s approach to taxation favors the people who have enough extra cash to contribute to Republic Party candidates.
When I get my tax returns back from the accontant and see how much I’m paying it’s depressing. But, as a once-a-year phenomenon, it’s probably less traumatic than going to Dillon’s every week and seeing how much money they want for my groceries.
Chances are, despite George WMD Bush’s deficit spending for a war that should not have been waged and cannot be won, a fair tax policy might finance stuff that Americans want and need.
“”"Kev,
If my pastor has a personal jet, he must have paid for it with his other job. We don’t pay him much, and we don’t own his home.. heck, we don’t even have our own church building.”"”
I know there are some preachers out there that are not using the money hard working folks give to drive luxury cars and live in mansions or prostituting themselves to the Republican Party and that really desire to do the right things. But too many of them only seek to make their church bigger, their bank account fatter and their political power larger. Jesus never engaged in that kind of stuff. I am not saying that a preacher should be dirt poor. He should live as his flock does- comfortable but not outrageous. And I do not have a problem with a church providing him and his family a decent home to live in or a decent automobile to drive. But mansions, Rolls Royces and private jets are way out of line. Do you think Jesus would have that stuff?
Do any of you remember when churches started schools to educate the children of poor immigrants and others that were scorned and rejected? Boy we have certainly come a long way! Now they only want the cream of the crop students and parents that can fork over $16,000 a year and up!
This “Catholic” Bilious Sebelius, who exerts extreme efforts to protect and promote the huge flow of blood-stained profits into unsafe, uninspected, criminal abortion mills, who forces queer quotas and pro-sodomy indoctrinations into state hiring and promotions, is going to lecture us on religion?I hardly think so.
Kev,
no.. Jesus would not have that stuff. if someone gave it to Him, he would sell it and give to the poor!
In the heat of battle just now ksam.
I’ll check out that site. I can do mission. I’m not much for message or money.
ksagnostic,
I was unaware that when you replied to ‘Paul’ on this thread that you were repling to someone who isn’t posting on it.
My bad.
Actually, Proud Man, my bad. I got my threads mixed up. Same diff in the end, however, Econ used to post under his given name, and his new identity is widely known. If he does not want me to respond to him by his given name, I will respect his wishes.
Sebelius said - “A lot of people felt that social justice, the (Iraq) war, poverty — the plight of the least of our brethren — should be what people of faith concern themselves with”.Everything she agrees with what the church teaches is what people of faith should concern themselves with. Never mind that there are so many charities, hospitals and shelters which christians already set up before her sermon.People of faith should not concern themselves with abortion or gay ‘marriage’ where she disagrees with what the church teaches. In this way she can gain more political support for herself.