Barack Obama’s biggest selling points are that he tries to be forthright and that he’s “one of us.†So while confessions about experimenting with drugs could sink another candidate, they seem to help Obama, especially with the younger generation, which he hopes will be the boost that puts him in the White House.
Christopher Beam of Slate writes, “Among young voters, to whom Obama is making particularly strong overtures, it’s unlikely anyone will hold his past against him.â€
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166 Comments
So he experimented with drugs/booze. BFD–so did most of the rest of us! At least the guy is trying to be honest and not BS his way around it. I don’t expect these people to hatch out completely innocent & perfect and stay that way until the moment they hit office; what I DO expect is a modicum of honesty. That’s all, really- I’m just sick of being pandered (and lied) to.
George W. Bush made a confession which he later retracted of doing cocaine, and he has been caught driving while intoxicated. It didn’t seem to have harmed his aspirations of occupying the White House.
Maybe that is because he is HONEST and not a low down HYPOCRIT as were Bush and Clinton. Bush and Clinton LIED about it and they both advocate things like 10 years in jail for marijuana and the denial of college aid to anybody who ever used marijuana- even if it was 4 years ago in the 9th grade. Obama tells the truth and does not advocate treating a marijuana smoker like a felon. And obama never said “I didn’t inhale”.
When Todd Tiahrt was first running for Congress, I listen to an interview on 1330 with him. I woman called in and asked if he had ever used illegal drugs while in college? He stammers and stutters a bit then asked the caller why she was asking. The on-air host started to attack the caller because he would not stand for people to call in to attack his guests. But Tiahrt interrupted, having gotten his composure back and said it was a fair question. Then admitted to having smoke grass in college and with a bit of a chuckle said “and yes I did inhale!”. I am fifty and know very few of my generation or the one that came afterwards that did not use a bit in school. It was then I thought that maybe I could vote for this guy, Tiahrt seemed a different man then.
I do not fault others who have tried things I have tried as such is the likes of being a human being. We all dance on the head of a pin once in awhile.
“I woman called in and asked if he had ever used illegal drugs while in college?”.Should be:”A woman called in and asked if he had ever used illegal drugs while in college?”.
sorry
The past is the past. That goes for all of the people. It’s like, this shouldn’t even be a question anymore. I want a leader who has lived enough to have made a few mistakes.
I never experimented with illegal drugs, because I knew they were
(wait for it)
illegal.
Thanks for proving my point Kansas.
But Tiahrt interrupted, having gotten his composure back and said it was a fair question. Then admitted to having smoke grass in college and with a bit of a chuckle said “and yes I did inhale!”.
Posted by: writerdog | November 24, 2007 at 06:04 AM—————I want a leader who has lived enough to have made a few mistakes.Posted by: political_mom | November 24, 2007 at 06:37 AM—————
writerdog, I think you’ve put your finger on the crucial difference in character among Tiahrt, Clinton, and Bush. Clinton’s extemporaneously arrived at political calculus told him that a majority of Americans wasn’t ready (yet) to elect a POTUS who’d smoked pot (he also has other issues with character as well, lol). Bush on the other hand just had his father’s powerful friends scrub his record clean…and lacked the character to admit this had happened. Of the three, only Tiahrt had the character to ‘fess up on the spot (to be honest: I’m sure his own extemporaneously arrived at political calculus told him he’d be ok, that by his admission he’d add to, rather than subtract from, his support in Wichita).
Anybody who’s spent 10 minutes alone with Tiahrt knows him to be a great guy (I was once stuck sitting next to him on the AE shuttle out of Wichita to DFW, and thus got to spend a whole hour chatting). If you’ve ever spent any time with him, you can see his character. It pretty much shines forth.
And political_mom, I too want a leader who’s lived enough to have made a few mistakes. Is it too much to ask for that AND some personal character, though?
Oh, Obama, sheesh. Yeah, I think this guy just may be made of the same cloth as Tiahrt.
Obama seems to be one of those guys I mentioned above. You know, where learning from a “few mistakes” ADDED to his character rather than subtracting from it.
Show him some love. He’s just bein’ real, man.
Thanks for proving my point Kansas.
Posted by: political_mom | November 24, 2007 at 07:08 AM
mmmkay…
So you are saying PMom, that one should make as many mistakes as possible so we can become better?
What if Obama had been caught by Law Enforcement and spent time in prison for possession?
Obama would have never been elected ‘dog catcher’ less State Senator and United States Senator.
So what your saying PMom, it’s okay to commit felonies and break the law especially if you don’t get caught?
What we’re seeing is not that voters want to reward drug use–we’re seeing that they value HONESTY.
Something we got absolutely none of from the current Worst. Administration. Ever.
It’s refreshing to see a candidate answer a yes or no question with a yes or a no.
George W. when asked if he had ever used drugs said, “I could pass the requirements for an FBI drug screen,” meaning that he hadn’t used drugs in the last SEVEN YEARS.
Thank God, this man is CONservative.
Smoking Pot isnt a felony, Kansas! Good Lord… So, you are now the perfect choir boy, who never tried pot in college… Ok, so thats alright…
Tell me: how many people in college DON’T experiment with drugs, namely pot? As a KU student, I can’t even think of one.
I like Obama’s candidness. Why should it be a bad thing?
I dont see anything bad either… In fact, when Clinton said he didnt inhale, I didnt find that to be all that far out… I knew a lot of folks in college back in the “day” who puffed on pot, but didnt inhale… They werent used to inhaling, cause they didnt smoke cigarettes!! But they liked puffing!!
The fact that Obama experimented with drugs doesn’t count for much. Only people that never tried drugs have a problem with it. Most people in Bama’s generation did. Sothat just means that he’s more like everyone else. What’s really important is ythat he does not use drugs anymore. I wouldn’t want someone under the influence of illegal marijuan or legal alcohol to be running the the only superpower in the world.
Is it just me? Has any one else noticed that the democrat campaigns are starting to look like a AA meeting?
Are we electing a president or the next AA counselor?
I served in one of the most elite services in the Navy. I was a reactor operator in the submarine service. I have never experimented with drugs. Furthermore, very few of my shipmates had ever used or experimented with drug use.
I reject the idea that ‘everyone did it’. It’s just not true.
If B. Hussein Obama admits to cocaine use he is unfit to be the president.
Thanks Hank for bringing some sanity to this discussion. I am always amazed that many on this blog think a man’s/woman’s character isn’t fully formed until they have usued illegal drugs. This isn’t a character trait to be admired rather one to fear. We don’t need a follower in the White House. We need someone not afraid to forge a path.
Talking in front of a group of future adults and telling them that you used but still are qualified to take the highest office in the land isn’t showing good judgement. What happened to shame for breaking the law?
One president made it and he “didnt inhale “
Hell political_mom even loves the Pit Bulls that tear up little kids..just ask the bimbo
George bush won’t talk about his cocaine use.
Hypocrisy from the right as usual.
At least he is honest. That is more than I can say about Hillary Clinton. I don’t trust her. Everytime she is asked a personal question – she hesitates. She doesn’t make eye contact, and she gives a political answer. Just once, I’d like to hear something that is not plastic from her. Something from her heart.
JR I have heard you numerous times mention this drug use by Bush. I haven’t however seen any proof. Where is it?
Anyone can make accusations but without proof it is simply talk.
“George bush won’t talk about his cocaine use.”
George is not running for election. It’s time you stop living in the past. We have a future to look forward to.
Let’s hope it is bright.
So Hank and ksgrm, I assume you’ll not be voting for Todd Tiahrt next November? After all, he admitted to breaking the law.
Of course you won’t do that. I’ll give you the benefit of the doubt here and state that you won’t do that because you’re not stupid (instead of stating that you’re merely partisan…lol, we all know you two are WAAAY above that!).
The point is this. If you’re expected to govern people who’ve tried illegal drugs, then it’s not a bad thing that you admit to trying illegal drugs if (1) you’ve tried them, and (2) you want your peers’ votes. How else can you convince voters that you are a normal American? (normal defined for my purpose here only: ie, you’re well within the bell defined by a normal distribution of the American experience with illegal drugs)
Like outlander said above, he’s just keepin’ it real, man. If you don’t get THAT, then you don’t get a lot of things…or you’re just being partisan.
More rationalization in this thread than a compulsive Gambler at a pawn shop.
John Hancock was a “rum runner” — and the American Revolution had much to do with the tax on spirits.
Joe Kennedy did the same thing, during prohibition.
Breaking the law does not seem to be out of character for our leaders. However, I think they should be honest about it.
cocaine does not equal rum Econ101…
KansasI think people should try to follow the law, yes.
However, nonconformist, rebellious attitudes are ingrained in the American culture.
Most people do act out, at least a little bit, in their youth.
The law is the law, right?
cocaine does not equal rum Econ101…Posted by: Kansas | November 24, 2007 at 11:09 AM
Thanks for proving my point.
Which is this. Have you tried cocaine? Rum?
If not, how do you know? How can you discuss this?
ANS: if you haven’t tried both, yet you are willing to make this conclusion, AND you’re running for national, elective office, then most Americans are going to ignore you.
QED
Yeah sure Pedant, everyone should go out and try it.
I’m sure Obama only tried it once (wink, wink)
Let’s make billionaire Drug Lords in Columbia and other countries even richer while they keep local peasants enslaved and terrorized on their plantations.
Yeah, vote for the ‘crack head’ Obama.
It’s a harmless drug, no one ever becomes addicted. No one has ever died from cocaine or the acquisition of cocaine.
Cocaine is the fairyland drug, Obama used it – let’s teach that to our children,
Children – Senator Obama says it’s okay to use drugs just as long as you admit using them later.
Okay children?
Now children, remember to wipe that excess powder from your nose and don’t leave those crack pipes laying around because they are so unsightly.
Like outlander said above, he’s just keepin’ it real, man. If you don’t get THAT, then you don’t get a lot of things…or you’re just being partisan.Posted by: Pedant | November 24, 2007 at 11:03 AM
[...]Posted by: Kansas | November 24, 2007 at 11:22 AM
I’ll take Clueless for $400, Alex.
I’m pretty sure that Bush never used or even tried cocaine. It’s hard to prove a negative but the NYT tried very hard to prove he did and failed.
The NYT sent over twenty people to Texas and interviewed over 200 of Bush’s friends, associates and even old classmates. Nada. They came up with nothing. But they never reported that fact.
Tiahrt? I seriously doubt that he ever tried cocaine. I know him as a friend and I know his character. He’s a good Christian. He’s a good father and husband. He’s also a pretty good politician. He’s worked hard for the 4th Congressional District and I’d support him in any way he needs.
Vote for him? Hell, I’m contributing to his campaign!
How about Pedant, I don’t abuse drugs or use illegal drugs because I’m strong enough to resist their use?
You got to be one weak-kneed sissified drugged out zombie to think illegal drugs can help you out.
How does Tiahrt, and Bush fit into this Topic?
Obama admits (to school children) that he used drugs, and no one can focus on that topic for one moment?
Does he STILL use drugs?
That might affect a President who has to decide whether to push THE BUTTON or not.
The laws on drugs will have to change, Kansas.
I am not a liberal “let it all hang out” guy.
I am also not a libertarian “no government controls, ever” kind of guy, either.
However, we have to find a way to protect the public from truly bad things, like meth and heroine and cocaine, without doing a favor to organized crime, in the process.
Alcohol prohibition caused a horrific increase in gangster activity.
Our current drug laws do the same thing.
I am not advocating legalization, but some more rational approach is needed. We are spending way too much on the “war on drugs” and I have a hard time seeing where it pays off.
I, for one, have not done illegal drugs for decades.
I am positive, If I wanted just about anything, I could find it in less than a day.
If we are not making the country safe, if we are promoting organized crime in the process, if we are wasting billions on putting otherwise law-abiding citizens in jail, I am not sure that this is working.
No, I am not advocating any changes, at this time.
However, changes in our drug laws are inevitable.
Those changes will be led by conservatives and liberals, alike, who wish to wipe out the gang-banger culture by reducing their profits and their inventory of “illegal” products.
Illegal drugs are, pretty much, the primary reason for gangs.
The police will not arrest someone for “stealing” something that is already illegal. Therefore, the drug culture had to come up with its own enforcement mechanism.
I predict that marijuana will, eventually, be decriminalized, even if it is not “legal” for outright sale in a commercial setting.
I also predict that we will, eventually, make distinctions between different substances and punish or regulate those substances according to the harm they cause.
Liberals and Libertarians need to look at the fact that this country now sues tobacco interests on a regular basis, even if the users knew, ahead of time, that the substance was harmful.
If we “LEGALIZE” or decriminalize a drug, who the heck do we take to court when someone overdoses or gets sick on that product?
How do we handle taxation on that product?
The moonshiners didnt go out of business with the repeal of prohibition. Tax issues and culture still made illegal hootch profitable, and kept the “revenuers” busy.
Again, I am not advocating any changes.
However, those who do lead, in this area, will likely have more support if they, 1.) admit past use, 2.)agree that most illegal drugs are pure poison, and 2.) ask the country to come to grips with our failed drug policy.
123 lol
Did anyone READ the Obama news story?
Clinton caught H for using Pot (though he didn’t inhale!), and Obama gets a pass for admitting to using pot and cocain!?!
Does he get a pass because he is black?
Does Hillary get a pass because she is a woman?
Gives a whole new meaning to the American’s With Disabilities Act. (ADA)
http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com/2007/11/20/obama-tells-students-he-drank-took-drugs-in-high-school/
Obama tells students he drank, took drugs in high school
Sen. Obama was candid with students in New Hampshire Tuesday.
MANCHESTER, New Hampshire (AP) — Presidential hopeful Barack Obama on Tuesday told high school students that when he was their age he was hardly a model student, experimenting with illegal drugs and drinking alcohol.
Obama stopped by a study hall at Manchester Central High School and answered students’ questions about the war in Iraq and his education plan. But when an adult asked about his time as a student, Obama spoke bluntly.
“I will confess to you that I was kind of a goof-off in high school as my mom reminded me,” said Obama, an Illinois Democrat who grew up in Hawaii.
“You know, I made some bad decisions that I’ve actually written about. You know, got into drinking. I experimented with drugs,” he said. “There was a whole stretch of time that I didn’t really apply myself a lot. It wasn’t until I got out of high school and went to college that I started realizing, ‘Man, I wasted a lot of time.”‘
Obama has written about his drug use in his memoir, “Dreams from My Father.”
“Junkie. Pothead. That’s where I’d been headed: the final fatal role of the young would be black man,” Obama wrote. Mostly he smoked marijuana and drank alcohol, Obama wrote, but occasionally he would snort cocaine when he could afford it.
Drugs, Obama wrote, were a way he “could push questions of who I was out of my mind, something that could flatten out the landscape of my heart, blur the edges of my memory.”
Pendant I graduated from high school in 1963 when marryijuana was at it’s height. The local drug dealer set up shop across the street from the school cleverly disguised as an imported rug dealer. Never sold any rugs but his business flourished.
I didn’t smoke pot. Never felt the need to. I’m not saying that many good people haven’t tried it I’m just saying that Obama should consider the ramifications of his words before they are spoken. These are young impressionable minds just looking for the justification to rebel.
I once had an ethics teacher tell the class that ’situational ethics’ could sink our country. This goes along with the well know quote that America could be captured without firing a shot – just give them one generation of our youth.
If everyone is allowed the right to decide what is right and what is wrong for themselves what happens when I and a group of my minions decide we no longer think stop signs are ‘right’. We’ll just run them all. Where are you in this argument?
From the OP link:———————-”…One reason Obama can admit to doing drugs without paying a political price (so far, at least) is that he has staked his campaign on candor. He’s the guy who tells car makers to cut emissions. The guy who promises Wall Street execs he’ll raise their hikes. He leads the field of Democratic front-runners in “honesty and directness.” But it’s also possible because of who the rest of the candidates are. Is Obama’s drug use really more offensive than Rudy Giuliani’s serial bigamy? More than his willingness to defend corrupt officials? More than Bill Clinton’s philandering? It’s illegal, certainly, but most voters can probably relate to it more closely than they can to other candidates’ (and their spouses’) vices.”———————-I think most Americans, especially Americans who can be said to have had a normal American experience with illegal drugs, agree with me (and this guy).
Econ101,
You’re kidding me right? Just joking?
There are very good reasons Physicians and Pharmacists go to school for so long to learn how to properly dispense and prescribe drugs.
However Econ101, you seem to think that every Tom, Dick and Harriet is fully capable on their own to prescribe drugs on their own and would never abuse them right?
Do you think Columbian Drug Lords are going to change their ways just because we pass laws in the U.S. so people can needle, snort or smoke their way into stupor?
Do you have a drug problem Econ101?
Do you think that the innuendo regarding “scandalous information” that Hillary’s campaign fed Novak had to do with Obama’s past drug use? He came out with it just a few days after that story broke. It makes sense he would try to defuse it that way.
By they way, I do question Obama telling school kids about his use.
He should have been more hard on himself,, and told the kids they would have an easier life if they did not follow his poor example.
Obama is not exactly a “scared straight” poster child.
He turned out OK, all the more reason that HE needs to be careful, when making his confessions to kids.
NO Kansas
Why in the world would you ask that?
I havent dont anything illegal for decades, as I said.
I just dont think any rational person would believe that we can continue putting people in prison for products like marijuana that grow wild, like crabgrass and dandelions.
I dont think we have enough money in this country to stop the use of all drugs, without making this a country nobody would want to live in.
Do you think that the innuendo regarding “scandalous information” that Hillary’s campaign fed Novak had to do with Obama’s past drug use? He came out with it just a few days after that story broke. It makes sense he would try to defuse it that way.Posted by: outlander | November 24, 2007 at 11:43 AM
That certainly sounds plausible to me. It would tend to lessen Obama’s honesty, to me, only if he hadn’t already written about his drug use earlier. I believe he’d already written about this previously, though.
However, I take your point that talking about it now could still serve as antigen against a virus spread in today’s media channels by a political rival.
Where are the libs that were all over Rush Limbaugh because of his abuse of legal prescription drugs such as oxycontin? Do I see a double standard here?
Econ what a disappointment you are this morning. Legalizing one more drug to be abused won’t help one adict. Ask Rush.
We grownup adults have to show good judgement in order to guide our children in the right direction. That is why a prez candidate telling high school kids that he snorted when he could afford it and he turned out OK is ridiculous. Man pull your head out.
Econ101,
Was not referring to marijuana, I was talking about cocaine.
Unbelievable…
KansasPlease, I am not advocating any changes in our drug laws, at this time.I am simply stating the obvious: change will come.
When we get to the point that we can’t but a “jury pool” together, that does not contain at least one person who has smoked pot, we will not be able to enforce the law anymore.
Also, your statements about physicians and pharmacists are well taken, but actually support my points.
This is a difficult issue, and your attempts to cast in in “black and white” will only hurt you, in the end.
There are, literally, thousands upon thousands of otherwise good people, who would make excellent leaders, who you might discount due to drug use, years ago.
I will not vote for Obama for a host of reasons. However, we need to realize that many of our Republican and Conservative friends have the same youthful experiences as Obama.
We also have to realize that our current drug policy, or “drug war” has unintended consequences.
The study of “unintended consequences” is a hallmark of conservatism.
To deny such consequences is a hallmark of arrogance.
Yeah for sure Econ101,
let’s not have any standards left for our civilization…
KansasScroll upowards.I never advocated legalization of Cocaine.However, there will be a Republican YOU like, who will get attacked for cocain use.That is a safe bet to make.Get out of attack mode Kansas.It is not helpful.
Show me a politician who currently uses drugs, and I will support your attack on that person.
Show me someone who profits from the illegal trade, and I will support your attack.
Show me a person who goes after tobacco and alcohol but wants to legalize drugs, and I will agree to charges of hypocrisy.
Show me a man, like Bill Clinton, who pardons drug pushers, and I will also be angry with those pardons.
However, again, I make my point:
Drug policy, in the United States, was written by people who do not understand the issues at all.
Drug policy should NOT be “rewritten” by people who do not understand the history of “patent medicine” and medical quackery, tort issues, addiction and abuse and medical issues, etc.
I think you have gone off half-cocked, Kansas.
My views, expressed here, have been stated by many, many conservative leaders for quite some time now.
Econ not wanting to pile on – but as a parent we never let out kids use that old adage that ‘everyone does it’. We now have three sons any parent could be proud of. Did they smoke pot – yes two of them did. Did we approve – never. Believe me now that they have children of their own this isn’t something they talk about. They talk about how they had to toe the line or be in trouble with mom and dad.
It is this attitude Obama needs to be aware of. He is sitting himself up as an example. Applying for the highest office in the land is something to aspire to not lower our standard for.
Whatever Econ101,
I have standards in my life, I don’t roll over so I can ‘feel good’ about the latest fad or drug use.
You state restrictions on one side and free use on the other side.
I do hope you don’t get splinters straddling that fence Econ101.
Paul – I find myself largely in agreement with you. I wonder how many people hare can claim that they have never used ANY recreational drugs. That would include tobacco and alcohol.
ksgrmI am NOT advocating legalization.
I am stating the obvious fact that our drug laws arent working.
I also said, clearly, that Obama should avoid encouraging kids to follow his path. Obama should make clear that HE was lucky, that his bad choices could have ruined his life.
I am only advocating some caution, here, fellow conservatives.
He who lives by the “drug attack ads” dies by the “drug attack ads” — Attack Obama for the WAY he made his confession. Attack Obama for not making a strong statement to discourage the kids.
Substance abuse is a horrible, horrible thing.
Addiction causes great misery to many people, not just the addicted.
However, conservatives SHOULD be able to figure out where our money should be best spent, in these efforts.
The before and after pics of those who have used Meth are great, for instance.
But, to assume that we can continue to waste millions by treating the joint in the ash tray the same as meth or cocaine is crazy. We can’t afford it.
I am not advocating any changes, am I?
Again, I am stating the obvious: after a few more years, a large segment of the population will have had some experience with illegal drugs.
We will not be able to put a jury together that will convict someone, and put them in jail, for pot possession.
Cops already make these decisions all the time.
There isn’t a policeman out there who hasnt, at least once, looked the other way on a simple pot case of less than an ounce.
They simply don’t have time to bust them all.
What is your solution, fellow cons on this Blog?
And back to Obama, IT WAS POOR JUDGMENT TO MAKE HIS “MIA CULPA” IN FRONT OF KIDS — Once he made his admission, Obama should have admonished the kids, in harsh terms, about all the overdoses and ruined lives he had seen, among his friends that were not as lucky a him.
You too Ben?
I mean Ben, you’re a Chemist. Do you think cocaine and tobacco are classified in the same drug categories?
Should someone be allowed to snort coke or drag on a crack pipe while they are driving down the road?
How about a little freebasing there Ben? I mean you can join Richard Pryor and fry your liver at a young age.
Maybe we should offer cocaine at discount pharmacies so it can be added to the list like Vision cards and free housing.
So in your mind Ben and Econ101, cocaine is in the same category as tobacco, alcohol and marijuana.
Remind me not to go to any hospitals where you go where your Doctors think the same way. They might say that cocaine can be given liberally with no precautions. Just slam that line of cocaine…here – have another one – it’s two for one day – happy hour.
Econ101,
Did you ever think our drug laws are not working because too many ‘feel good’ persons like yourself let drug use and sales slide instead of putting your foot down and saying a very loud no.
It’s cavalier attitudes like your showing Econ101 that the country is in trouble with drug use.
My, how the priggigh right-winguts have turned on one of their own. “Econ101’s” original post merely stated his prediction that current drug laws will one day be changed. “Econ101″ mentioned some of the disastrous unintended results of current draconian drug laws. And the traditional CON circular firing squad began!
Fifty years of scientific studies later, the fact remains that the worst consequence of marijuana use is getting arrested for it. Treating pot with the same law enforcement approach as heroin, cocaine, or meth is just plain silly.
Econ we agree in large part so I will agree to disagree with part of your stance. Bad judgement will always be with us. Before we legalize pot though I would like an honest study published about the longterm effects of usage. The lack of motivation, the same lack of good judgement found with excessive alcohol, the very real threat of addiction for people with addictive personalities, impaired driving abilities, etc… Until we address this as a social drug then keep it as an illegal drug with enforcement potential. Just MOHO.
By the way I don’t admire Obama more for this admission and think that there was some ulterior motive in his admission at this point. We’ll see.
So, it becomes a liberal love fest to hail Obama’s honesty about illegal drugs. Yet those same people attack and jump up and down gleefully when their hated enemy Rush became involved in a drug episode.
Oh you hyppocrites..how do you sleep at night?
Fifty years of scientific studies later, the fact remains that the worst consequence of marijuana use is getting arrested for it. Treating pot with the same law enforcement approach as heroin, cocaine, or meth is just plain silly.
Posted by: MonkeyHawk | November 24, 2007 at 12:26 PM
To my knowledge there is no study to support this statement. If I am wrong show me. Monkey your acceptance of this as normal says more about you than about the ‘priggesh’ conservatives.
KansasBen, I think, once made the point that “the FDA doesnt regulate tomatoes grown in the backyard” and I think that is a valid point.
Commercial sale of any substance MUST be regulated. There are liability issues and safety issues involved. We can NOT regulate everything from aspirin to tobacco to alcohol, but let other, currently illegal substances, be sold at the corner QT!
The “Interstate Commerce” clause is the clause that Nixon and others used to ramp up our “war on drugs” — this is unfortunate. This clause has been abused for gun control purposes and many other nanny-state abuses of our liberties.
Fellow conservatives: I will admit that the threat of arrest and punishment might well stop some kids from trying drugs.
Please admit that the desire to rebel and actually DO what is prohibited, common in all teenagers, and common in the American historical character, might actually encourage others to DO the drugs?
Education is the key.
“Just say no” is important.
Medical and phychological risks should be taught, as well.
“Dont do it because it is illegal”?
NASCAR stock car races were started by bootleggers and their race cars.
John Hancock was a Rum Runner.
NO, Coccaine and Meth and Pot are NOT the same.
Also, those drugs are NOT the same as rum, but are we doing a good job of TEACHING the differences?
We are a nation formed by rebellion.
Conservatives, in general, fear government control and over-reaching. The “drug war” lends itself to bad decisons by government.
My statements, here, are clearly within the boundaries of conservative thought.
By the way, the recent RICO lawsuits against gang-bangers were long overdue. Taking the property of actual dealers and gang members is a great idea, reduce the “bling” and you reduce the attracton of the gang life.
However, if you lend your car to someone who leaves drugs in your car, without your knowledge, should you forfeit your car? This has happened, in this country.
I’m no great fan of Obama anyway.
bush when asked if he used cocaine simply refused to talk about it. Like as ever, he left himself the wiggle room of not admitting anything but stopping short of where he could be busted on a lie.
The hypocrisy from some on the right here about that is telling.
ALSO telling? “Kansas”’s almost religious fervor over this.
Any and every poster and person is to be summarily judged by “kansas”?
Lots of times when you see that? It is the judgmental one fearing judgment and hiding in the plain sight of righteous indignation. Think Larry Craig or Mark Foley here.
In other words, I suggest “kansas” likely abuses drugs. Maybe not illegal ones. But there is something driving him here.
Oh and no, I never tried cocaine. Too expensive. I did a few hits of weed a time or two. It never seemed to do anything for me.
I don’t know about you Econ101 and others, but I worked through my teenage years. There wasn’t time to do drugs or get my my “altered.”
I felt the benefit of work and was tired at the end of the day. Being tired, taking a shower and proper diet made me sleep well at night.
I felt good when I got that paycheck and saved it towards a goal (car, birthday gifts or some new clothes.)
No sir, I don’t think there was any desire on my part to waste money on drugs.
Maybe I’m just old fashion that way.
My confession?
I quit doing pot because I did not want my money supporting Communist rebellion, or Communist regimes, in South America.
That was 25 years ago!
Also, too many licenses now. I can’t afford the risk.
my my “altered.”= my mind altered
And far be it from me to ever agree with econPaul on anything.
I feel like I gotta go wash even thinking about it.
But he IS right here. Clean the closets of our forefathers and ya find all sorts of sordid,unseemly, even sickening stuff.
What, are we going to get to the place where only a choir boy raised in a monastery on the top of a mountain can run for office?
The essence of America is rebellion. Demand none of it in the rebellious youth of our leaders and we’ll have ourselves a pretty shallow and boring pool to fish for ‘em in.
ksgrm (and others)
Some of the best “anti drug” commercials are the ones where they tell parents its “OK TO BE A HYPOCRITE” in so many words.
I got mad at one of my kids for underage drinking, once.
Mom and Dad chided me with old stories of MY youth.
I blew up at them. When they were mad at me, they didnt have their parents tell ME it was OK to break the rules.
If every generation is allowed to make the same mistakes as the one before, plus add a few of their own, we are in real trouble.—-Also, I like the commercials that show pot users as lazy and unaccomplished. I think that is a huge risk with that drug.
“ksgrm” –
If everyone operated on the limitations “to [your] knowlege,” the world would be in even worse shape than it is.
Any discussion of marijuana should begin with the fact that there have been numerous official reports and studies, every one of which has concluded that marijuana poses no great risk to society and should not be criminalized. These include:
the National Academy of Sciences Analysis of Marijuana Policy (1982);
the National Commission on Marihuana and Drug Abuse (the Shafer Report) (1973);
the Canadian Government’s Commission of Inquiry (Le Dain Report) (1970);
the British Advisory Committee on Drug Dependency (Wooton Report) (1968);
the La Guardia Report (1944);
the Panama Canal Zone Military Investigations (1916-29);
and Britain’s monumental Indian Hemp Drugs Commission (1893-4).
It is sometimes claimed that there is “new evidence” showing marijuana is more harmful than was thought in the sixties. In fact, the most recent studies have tended to confirm marijuana’s safety, refuting claims that it causes birth defects, brain damage, reduced testosterone, or increased drug abuse problems.
The current consensus is well stated in the 20th annual report of the California Research Advisory Panel (1990), which recommended that personal use and cultivation of marijuana be legalized: “An objective consideration of marijuana shows that it is responsible for less damage to society and the individual than are alcohol and cigarettes.”
References: The National Academy of Sciences report, Marijuana and Health (National Academy Press, 1982), remains the most useful overview of the health effects of marijuana, its major conclusions remaining largely unaffected by the last 10 years of research. Lovinger and Jones, The Marihuana Question (Dod d, Mead & Co., NY 1985), is the most exhaustive and fair-handed summary of the evidence against marijuana. Good, positive perspectives may be found in Lester Grinspoon’s Marihuana, the Forbidden Medicine (Yale Press, 1993) and Marihuana Reconsidere d (Harvard U. Press 1971), which debunks many of the older anti-pot myths. See also Leo Hollister, Health Aspects of Cannabis, Pharmacological Reviews 38:1-20 (1986).
Obama expects to gloss over the fact that he was a drunken, skirt-chasing pothead in Aloha High School? HA! Wait for the drunken, pothead bimbo erruption, folks.
That is so true Econ. Our youngest son and the most outspoken when growing up is now a college grad with a business of his own and when his 10 year old daughter asks me if her dad did something when he was young I have been instructed to plead ignorance. Forturnately for him his 13 year old son is a great student with no rebellious side showing yet but the daughter (who is in a gifted class) will put gray hairs on his head.
His first word was “Why” and that never changed. We were always explaining to him why he was not allowed to do something all of the other kids did. We finally settled on ‘I’m sorry their parents don’t love them enough to say no but yours do’. It worked.
I can laugh about it now – no so when it was happening.
My opinion – no good drugs.
For the most part Drug laws do more damage to people than the actual drugs themselves, not to mention that millionare drug lords only exist because of drug prohibition, the same way alcohol prohibition made millionaires out of pickpockets and two bit thugs like Dutch Schulz, Bugsy Segail, and Al Capone. And as Econ noted American Culture is self was founded on lawless and rebellion. At its simplest level all the founding fathers were guilty of treason, Leading to the famous Franklin quote about “Hanging together or else ending up hanging separately”
the “sons of liberty” today would be a terrorist organization. Moonshiners and rum runners are regarded as folk heros in many parts of the country(NASCAR, dukes of hazzard), As are Old West outlaws, Depression era bank robbers, and Gangsters/mafia. In the future Drug dealers will be the new moonshiner/gangster/outlaw because like their counterparts they to fight the system.
Marijuana being illegal has less to do with it being a dangerous drug and more do with William Randolph Heart not wanting Hemp to compete with his paper mills.
I will put it this way:
There are no good house flies.
However, that doesnt mean that I want to fumigate my house, every day, in order to make sure they are all dead!
I am worried about overkill and over-reaching.
We have drug laws because we care about our kids and our country.
When the laws themselves violate our ideals, such as the mis-use of forfeiture laws, or the waste of tax dollars, or the corruption of law enforcement and the enrichment of gangs — I think a reality check is in order.
“reality is for people who can’t handle drugs” the druggies used to joke.
Who is having the most trouble with reality, on this Blog thread, today?
Q: Does marijuana pose health risks to users?
Marijuana is an addictive drug1 with significant health consequences to its users and others. Many harmful short-term and long-term problems have been documented with its use:
The short term effects of marijuana use include: memory loss, distorted perception, trouble with thinking and problem solving, loss of motor skills, decrease in muscle strength, increased heart rate, and anxiety2.
In recent years there has been a dramatic increase in the number of emergency room mentions of marijuana use. From 1993-2000, the number of emergency room marijuana mentions more than tripled.
There are also many long-term health consequences of marijuana use. According to the National Institutes of Health, studies show that someone who smokes five joints per week may be taking in as many cancer-causing chemicals as someone who smokes a full pack of cigarettes every day.
Marijuana contains more than 400 chemicals, including most of the harmful substances found in tobacco smoke. Smoking one marijuana cigarette deposits about four times more tar into the lungs than a filtered tobacco cigarette.
Harvard University researchers report that the risk of a heart attack is five times higher than usual in the hour after smoking marijuana.3
Smoking marijuana also weakens the immune system4 and raises the risk of lung infections.5 A Columbia University study found that a control group smoking a single marijuana cigarette every other day for a year had a white-blood-cell count that was 39 percent lower than normal, thus damaging the immune system and making the user far more susceptible to infection and sickness.6
Users can become dependent on marijuana to the point they must seek treatment to stop abusing it. In 1999, more than 200,000 Americans entered substance abuse treatment primarily for marijuana abuse and dependence.
More teens are in treatment for marijuana use than for any other drug or for alcohol. Adolescent admissions to substance abuse facilities for marijuana grew from 43 percent of all adolescent admissions in 1994 to 60 percent in 1999.
Marijuana is much stronger now than it was decades ago. According to data from the Potency Monitoring Project at the University of Mississippi, the tetrahydrocannabinol (THC) content of commercial-grade marijuana rose from an average of 3.71 percent in 1985 to an average of 5.57 percent in 1998. The average THC content of U.S. produced sinsemilla increased from 3.2 percent in 1977 to 12.8 percent in 1997.7
http://www.usdoj.gov/dea/ongoing/marijuana.html
“ksgrm” –
If everyone operated on the limitations “to [your] knowlege,” the world would be in even worse shape than it is.
Posted by: MonkeyHawk | November 24, 2007 at 12:55 PM
Monkey I could have posted as many sources as you but found this to be a comprehensive study on pot use. To say it is no more harmful that drinking or smoking is simply ignoring the obvious.
We can read and then draw our own conclusions. I won’t mention the lack of knowledge on your part that helped you form your opinion.
Who is having the most trouble with reality, on this Blog thread, today?
Posted by: Econ101 | November 24, 2007 at 01:14 PM
Not sure econ who would you nominate?
“ksgrm” –
Most of the issues raised in your cut-and-paste are addressed here:
http://tinyurl.com/yqkjv4 here:
Ksgrm, using the DEA as a source isn’t very independent. Sort of like Going to Coca Cola to to find out why their better than Pepsi. BTW Coca Cola still imports Cocaine for its product and Cocaine also gave the product its name.
Tom and Monkey do you question the health effects? I can prove those on other sites. Do you question the social affects on kids. Those also are proveable.
What I am saying is that we don’t need to legalize another drug. We need to look at ways to lessen the impact on our youth.
I don’t have all of the answers and by the way depending on a study that is financed by grants by the Cannabis Association is certainly not an impartial source.
If every generation is allowed to make the same mistakes as the one before, plus add a few of their own, we are in real trouble.-Econ101
I agree.
Lets hold our elected officials to a highter standard. If they are not role models (even in their youth), then who is?
kansas – nicotine and cocaine are both addictive alkaloids. In its purified form especially nicotine is very potent. And, if free-based nicotine hits with a very hard and fast punch.
As for driving – we quite properly outlaw driving while impaired by ethanol; I would put other recreational drugs in a similar catagory.
ksgrm – tocacco also has hundreds of chemicals in its smoke.
One effect of criminalization of drugs is the refinement of them. A small amount of ‘crack nicotine’ would be much easier to smuggle than a carton of cigarettes. Similarly with other drugs.
Restrict them; with tighter rstrictions for the more potent. Just like ‘cereal malt beverage’ used to be 18 while ‘real beer’ was 21. Tobacco is 18 – why? Tax them. Then add a good healthy dose of honest education. I love the ones they use in California showing a cigarette drooping when they note that heavy tobacco use can lead to impotence.
Unlike some people I do NOT favor prohbiting tobacco use – I just want relatively onservative restrictions to protect me from second-hand smoke. I do NOT favor pohibiting alcohol use but I DO favor the restrictions we have now.
My only ‘recreational’ drug is caffeine – and I could free-base that if I wanted to.
ksgrm – do you favor prohibition of alcohol and tobacco?
Bush’s drinking and cocaine use didn’t affect his candidacy because he was bound to lose anyway. Obama’s past use won’t be an issue, just like Kevin Rudd’s past use of earwax didn’t affect his victory.
It’s another non-issue promoted by the conservative media to focus away from the fact that the conservatives can’t run on the issues.
Econ101….Got to say one thing, your viewpoint/wording in this blog was done very well. Common sense goes a long way in this “war” on drugs and we ALL know the current method isn’t/hasn’t been working. As i watch Kansas try the holier then thou rebuttal against all that have tried some sort of drug, it makes me wonder if there isn’t some sort of skeleton that is banging in the closet next to him. As my thinking tends to run to the left, i do find some points that come from the right to make sense. Thanks again for the good read.
Ksgrm if its the health effects that worry you then their are plenty of legal ways to make one unhealthy quite frankly I dont want to government mandating them, no junk food,no coffee,no fried food, mandatory exercise? Health effects of Pot, I dont think their that bad, I think Alcohol is more dangerous, and nicotine certainly kills more people and I wouldn’t outlaw those either, plus theirs plenty of evidence that marijuana has therapeutic effect to the point where the Federal government dispenses it, it remains illegal because Big Pharma doesn’t want competition
FirstThanks!
BTW folks: Gang bangers are bad for our health, as well.
Lets fight a war on gang bangers, and do what is best to put THEM out of business!
As a matter of practicality, I’d much prefer the recreational cocaine trade were operated by Walgreen’s instead of the Crips and the Bloods.
This has been an interesting thread; me defending “Econ101,” for one thing.
What strikes me is the CONS’ feeding frenzy against him for a post that didn’t advocate anything, merely expressed his prediction as to how America’s drug laws might one day be reformed.
What a bitter, bitter bunch of ideologues populate the right wingnuts of the Republic Party.
Well, well… Obama talked to a group of school kids… Says he used to drink, and do a few drugs… THEN — He says he “woke up” and realized what a “WASTE OF TIME” it was.. how much TIME HE WASTED doing such things… Seems to me his message is IF you do drugs and get drunk, you are wasting valuable time growing up…
Doesnt sound to me as if he is encouraging it…
Some of you all are pointing to a time when he USED the junk… And totally forgetting what he said about using the junk…
Waste of Time… Focus on that line for a while… And then tell me he is encouraging kidds to use??
BTW — his quotes are already posted upthread…
I suggest “American Gangster” as a good movie to see.
The point I took home:
Honest cops and gangsters DO have a common enemy:
Dishonest Cops!
I suggest “American Gangster” as a good movie to see.
The point I took home:
Honest cops and gangsters DO have a common enemy:
Dishonest Cops!
Ben I don’t advocate prohibiting alcohol or tobacco. Wouldn’t help. It has to be a personal decision. One thing I disagree with strongly is the way people smoke and then sue the cigarette companies when they get lung cancer. Since the first warnings in 1963 – if you started to smoke it should be at your own risk.
I also think that I have the right to clean air. If I could set next to a smoker without smelling his smoke I wouldn’t have a problem with that. But I can’t so I support all of the clean air legislation and city regulations.
That said – the question was whether this would hurt or help Obama. It probably won’t hurt him and I hope it doesn’t help him. If so think of the ramifications. How many kids will use as their rational to use because he did and came out alright? How many of those kids won’t be able to walk away as he did? How many addicts will be out looking for the stronger stuff when that high isn’t high enough?
I’m not ignoring reality. I am probably facing the hard questions better than most on here. Some people with addictive personalities won’t be able to walk away. What makes one person an addict while many are able to lay it down and walk off?
These were the questions I was raising. All of the make pot legal, ignore the snorting, etc… never mentioned the victims of this – the addicts.
Ksgrm–”Pot has more THC than it used to!”
Actually, that’s probably a good thing.
That’s why we used to smoke hash whenever we could get it instead of pot (this was years ago in high school and college).
If the THC content is higher, then one need not smoke as much to get high . . . thereby reducing exposure to harmful chemicals.
When Arnold Swartzenegger was confronted doing a doobie on video-tape, he said, “pot’s not a drug, it’s a leaf.”
I think what Obama said was right on the money–drugs aren’t so much dangerous as they are BORING.
They are indeed a waste of time.
You tell kids that drugs are dangerous, and that just makes drugs sound exciting, which they are not.
An addendum to MH’s comments about having drugs sold in legitimate ‘drug stores’ rather than the Crips and Bloods. As I drive around town I frequently drive in front of liquor stores and tobacco stores. I do not worry that i am going to get caught in a cross-fire between them. However, I do have such worries with the gangs.
ksgrm – if you do not favor prohibition of the ‘BIG TWO’ corporate-sponsored recreational drugs why the double standard toward a home-grown product like marijuana? The reason it was outlawed in the first place is because it was ‘unfair competition’ to the big two since it could be home-grown so easily.
I agree with your concern about he addicts – but I have that concern also for the addicts of the big two. Prohibition didn’t work there either.
Cap with this logic – we shouldn’t tell kids not to play in the street. Just tell them it is boring and they won’t go there.
I guess I give kids today more credit than they might deserve if I listen the the majority of posters here today. I think they are intelligent enought to understand there are health issues involved. I think they do respect their bodies overall and won’t abuse if given the correct information.
Just my jaded opinion. We run in different circles I guess.
By the way Aunold isn’t my hero.
ksgrm – I tell kids (and young adults) about the dangers of drugs based on the facts. I have seen first-hand effects of many of them including crack, speed, meth, PCP, acid and others. OE BIG CONCERN I have is with the possibility of marijuana being laced with other drugs – drugs that are addictive. Pushers have a significant incentive to do that – they make a lot more money that way.
Ben that was my point. You can’t legislate morality as I have said many times on this blog. Thus my stand on the abortion issue. But we can stop glorifying the use of this drug. We can stop acting like we live for that time of the day we can get home to drown ourselves in a tall martini or glass of wine. Kids aren’t stupid and are very observant. They emulate us like it or not.
My father died from silicosis and emphesyma at the age of 69. He had smoked since the age of eight. I would outlaw tobacco if given a choice but know it wouldn’t help.
I just have a problem with legalizing yet another poison.
“”"What if Obama had been caught by Law Enforcement and spent time in prison for possession?
Obama would have never been elected ‘dog catcher’ less State Senator and United States Senator.
So what your saying PMom, it’s okay to commit felonies and break the law especially if you don’t get caught?”"”
Obama has never advocated that it be a felony. In fact, it really should not even be a misdomeanor. It should be a citation and perhaps a $100 or so fine.
“”"I served in one of the most elite services in the Navy. I was a reactor operator in the submarine service. I have never experimented with drugs. Furthermore, very few of my shipmates had ever used or experimented with drug use.
I reject the idea that ‘everyone did it’. It’s just not true.”"”
I don’t know when you served but we are talking 60s and 70s here. And the military was as full of dope as any other institution.
“”"At least he is honest. That is more than I can say about Hillary Clinton. I don’t trust her. Everytime she is asked a personal question – she hesitates. She doesn’t make eye contact, and she gives a political answer. Just once, I’d like to hear something that is not plastic from her. Something from her heart.”"”
You are assuming she has a heart! That is questionable!
I guess my approach is legal and then work on the ‘why?’ My ‘get home for a martini’ is more like a cup of herb tea and some nice music. But, to each his own. And, to the guy who enjoys the martini i say ‘more power to ya’; not my job to criticize.
“”"I think what Obama said was right on the money–drugs aren’t so much dangerous as they are BORING.
They are indeed a waste of time.
You tell kids that drugs are dangerous, and that just makes drugs sound exciting, which they are not.”"”
You know you are really right on with that. I did drugs. Not only pot but various forms of LSD and coccaine once. All when I was a teenager. And you know what? It was all BULL. It was not half as good as the dopers made you think it would be. I actually got more joy out of staying sober and hanging out at the movies or Roller City or just driving my car fast (which can also kill you) than I did out of dope. And if you are blessed to meet a girl you really love and that really loves you, you will leave all that silly stuff like dope where it belongs- in the trash. The only reason I did it is because “everybody else” was doing it including some of my family members so I thought it was “cool”. That is the same reason I started smoking cigarettes too and it took me 25 years to kick that “drug habit”. But, except for the occassional beer, I have been clean for over 10 years now!
“”"Ben I don’t advocate prohibiting alcohol or tobacco. Wouldn’t help. It has to be a personal decision. One thing I disagree with strongly is the way people smoke and then sue the cigarette companies when they get lung cancer. Since the first warnings in 1963 – if you started to smoke it should be at your own risk.”"”
The warnings did not begin until the 70s and the full effects were not really known until the late 70s.
I’m quite disappointed in the comments today.
No wonder we have a massive drug ue problem in the U.S. today. It is not from drugs being smuggled into the U.S., it’s piss poor attitudes.
Triers do turn into long term buyers and the illegal drug supply chain does keep going because of this toleration like what is exhibited here.
Now I’ll never know if I’m talking to someone on this blog who isn’t or hasn’t been on a drug-induced stupor or not.
Forgive me while I go pray for guidance.
“Kansas” –
You don’t need drugs to get fuc#ed-up.
You’re fuc#ed-up on life.
While you are at it kansas pray for the prohibition of tobacco and alcohol. After all, we also will “never know if I’m talking to someone on this blog who isn’t or hasn’t been on a alcohol-induced stupor or not.”
Kansas,You remind me of when I was running for statewide office back in 1990.
There was a debate between the Democratic gubernatorial candidates at the Machinists Hall.One person asked the candidates if they had ever smoked pot.Joan Finney replied, “no” and sat down.Tom Docking, appearing for John Carlin, said he didn’t know, but would ask him.Fred Phelps got up and gave a diatribe against the evils of drug use. Halfway through, someone in the audience yelled out, “In your case, Fred, would you please consider it?”
“The 1964 report generated enormous publicity and prompted some of the first concerted efforts at public “smoke-outs” and educational programs to inform smokers of the hazards of cigarettes. Its recommendations led to the Surgeon General’s Warning on each pack of cigarettes sold in the United States, as well as the ban on television advertising of cigarettes.”
The warnings did not begin until the 70s and the full effects were not really known until the late 70s.
Posted by: Kev | November 24, 2007 at 04:06 PM
You might want to check your facts on this one. Anyone who started smoking after the mid 60’s had no excuse to sue the manufacturer.
OK — been reading the posts here so far… We need to re-do some thinking here…
ALCOHOL is legal & lethal… So what do you all tell your kids about Alcohol??
Fermented Alcohol is not so much of a recreational drug, as it is a cultural thing… European kids grow up drinking table wine as soon as they are weaned off the milk bottle… Same in other cultures and nations… Same thing with beer/ale/etc. it some cultures (malt liquor at least)
Distilled spirits are more in line as recreational… because it isnt a “natural” process…
Tobacco, at least in Native American culture, is a somewhat religious matter… Tobacco is used as an offering sort of thing…
Peyote is also a religious matter in some parts of Native American culture, yet deemed “illegal”…
We arent “getting” the over arching situation here… And until we come to grips with the over-arching situation, we are just going to sit here and argue about who is right or wrong, or however you want to spin it…
OBAMA never encouraged kids to do drugs, OR alcohol… Rather, he told what happened to himself… lazy; waste of time; etc. THAT is important… Because it means that all of those who would say he is a bad example, would seem to be quite wrong!! He did NOT glamourize drugs, or alcohol…
He DID tell those kids it is a Waste of time IOW dont waste your time on drugs and alcohol kids…
I dont think ANY ONE of us could tell them anything better!!
“I’m quite disappointed in the comments today.”
Well we humbly beg your forgiveness there “saint kansas”.
Not.
And while you’re hitting your knees, why not ask for a reminder lesson/guidance in the area of judging others? You’re about the last person who should hold court as to anyones character!
It’s been fairly suggested you may have a drug problem of your own. Well even if it goes no further than an intoxicating self righteousness, you might want to heal thyself. Religion is a drug in its own way too.
The opiate of the masses. Karl Marx
I dont think ANY ONE of us could tell them anything better!!
Posted by: Chas. | November 24, 2007 at 05:23 PM
Well as usual Chas you have managed to completely miss the point. Will it hurt him with the voters? Should it hurt him with the voters? Is the example he put out one we would want our kids to emulate?
In your rush to defend you have as usual changed the subject.
And how do you feel about Bush’s drug use? He evens admits there are times in his life he can’t remember because he was so s**tfaced.
I don’t believe anyone should be judged by past abuse..if they have their act together now. They often have an insight that those who never used use will never have.NO ONE is safe from the negative consequences of alcohol and drug abuse…even if one doesn’t use. The biggest victims are the ones who are forced to live with the addict.
We have a moral duty to make sure that the laws we pass are enforcable.Tyranical laws, or even well intentioned laws, that do not have broad public support will only erode public confidence in all of our other laws.
The most disturbing thing about our current drug laws is that illegal drugs generate lots of money which is then use to bribe judges and politicians and cops.
I do not advocate any changes, in the actual laws.
However, we need to set priorities. We can not afford to be this harsh with a drug that is as common and crab grass and dandelions.
We will never be rid of it.
Giving any drug to a child should be a grave matter and effect your parental rights.
DUI, under any drug, should suspend your license to drive.
There is nothing wrong in telling law enforcement to concentrate on the hard stuff, however.
There is nothing wrong with letting most possession charges, for small amounts of pot, go unprosecuted. Especially if the people involved give the cops information about other crimes. (This is already happening, folks. Cops will laugh at their own for hauling a kid in because of a single joint, unless there is a DUI charge or some other issue involved.)
Mary
I agree with you, on the “co-dependent” issue, though you did not use that word.
Al-anon and ACOA groups do great work.
Those who suffer most are those who live with the addict or the drunk.
I’m not advocating changing laws. I’m talking about people in power whether it is political or they are big sports stars making light of illegal drug use. This goes for bush as well. To my knowledge he never discussed his drug use in an open forum especially in front of high school kids.
Maybe I have missed the point of this topic but it isn’t about users so much as users in public places.
I agree that the drug laws as they stand now are ineffective and costly.
Let people smoke in pot like they do in Holland, it’s not much different than drinking a couple of beers or glasses of wine.It even has a therapeutic use for cancer and glacoma sufferers, just regulate it like alcohol and that will take a huge burden off the “war” on drugs…plus all the taxes that could be collected would be a bonus. I’d rather see someone stoned than drunk..they aren’t nearly as mean and obnoxious.
After reading this thread I’m tickled I have some of these absolutely horrible life experiences! I sure wouldn’t want to be among the holier than thou. If I had taken myself as seriously as some of you my life would have been less interesting!
I grew up in the early 60s and I was inquisitive and quite normal. There are so many mistakes I made, so many errors in judgment, so many times I didn’t think beyond today. My childish mind thought IF I looked to the future I might miss a good party tonight! I was a kid! Studies have shown the entire frontal lobe (where decisions are made) doesn’t finish its development until a person is into their 20s. So, I did some drugs. And my grown children who are productive adults, actually credits to society, know that I made some terrible choices and was very lucky!
Those things I did in my youth don’t bother me nearly as badly as the poor choices, the errors, the mistakes I still make today. Seems I’m better since I find new mistakes — learn from ones already made and move onto another newer one. There are SO many, why repeat an old one!?
Paul, I salute you! You’ve shown me a side I’ve never seen and I’ll bet if we all could be as mature, open and honest as you have been we might find other areas where we could agree! Thanks for giving me that hope, Paul.
Obama isn’t a candidate I support for several reasons having nothing to do with this thread. However, his honesty is refreshing! Our leaders are human beings with human failings. I’m encouraged some can admit they are human. Sure better than the idiot in charge we’re stuck with until January 2009.
The drug “Thalimid” is used for come cancer patients.The purpose?To get the chemo/radiation patient to EAT!
The stuff costs from $5,000.00 to $7,000.00 a month.
Why so much?
This is the old “Thalidamide” that used to be prescribed for morning sickness, in England. Problem is that it causes massive birth defects, the “flipper babies” of the 60’s.
If a pregnant woman so much as touches one of these cancer drugs, she will injure her unborn child. Enough toxin will be absorbed, through her skin, to do great damage.
Wouldn’t “medical marijuana” make much more sense?
Peace. Love all you free thinkers.
Whatever happened to advocating for the ideal? Just because you or I were stupid does not mean that our kids have to be.
The trend, as Obama demonstrates, is to freely admit how stupid we have been in the past. What message does that send to the impressionable? It says go ahead and be stupid, you’ve still got time to recover and be just like Obama, or not.
So much for role models.
The point is quite simple, Ksgrm… And NO, ma’am I did NOT miss it!! Obama made his statement to those kids… said he goofed up… wasted his time… implication is that they can do BETTER than that…
If THAT hurts his candidacy, then we are all to be pitied!!
SEE, Germie… if you actually READ what is posted, you wont make stupid comments!!
But I guess that wont change either… Surely you know Bush was arrested for DWI… I didnt ever see him telling school kids they should find a better use of their time than doing what he did!!
Obama tells them, and you want to find fault with him!! What a bunch of hypocrisy!!
Outlander –
“Just because you or I were stupid does not mean that our kids have to be.”
That is Obama’s point, if you actually read it, instead of try to take a shredder to it… He said he WASTED his time… Could have done other things…
You know, he is giving kids the credit for the thinking ability to make that connection between WASTED time, and “not a good idea” to waste time???
As for “Ideals” — If you want Utopia, go buy the book!!
It bothers me greatly that those who dream/wish for an Ideal, Utopia style of society, are willing to give up SO MUCH to get it! And yet, the take such great pride in FREEDOM!!
Problem is, if you really WANT a Utopia, then you give up your freedom. Utopian societies only have possibility of existence in a Totalitarian State.
In a FREE state, we all recognize two things… None of us are perfect… And yet, all of us are EQUALS… That is our insurance of escaping Totalitarian Rule.
The trend, as Obama demonstrates, is to freely admit how stupid we have been in the past. What message does that send to the impressionable? It says go ahead and be stupid, you’ve still got time to recover and be just like Obama, or not.Posted by: outlander | November 24, 2007 at 06:51 PM
Yeah, it’s a tragedy that in this, the best country in the world, one can recover from youthful indiscretions without going to prison or any other kind of re-education camp managed by the state.
And you’ll have to look long and hard (because it’s not there) to find where Obama advocates screwing up. As Chas has pointed out numerous times, his message is the opposite and actually appears to agree with yours 100%.
Unless you’re just being partisan, that is.
GOOOOOOO JAYHAWKS!!!!!!!!
telling kids that their life will be over, if they use drugs, wont work.Already, we have too many rock stars and hollywood types that prove you can make money and do drugs.We need, instead, to teach them that their life would be better, no matter what they decide to do, if they stay off of drugs.The “refer madness” over-reactions of my parents generation did not help at all.
If we tell them that their life is ruined, if they even try drugs, how have we helped the user quit? Isnt his life “over” now?
I agree with you on that Econ!!
You’ll have to excuse me as I am headed out the door to something called “Gators Sports Bar,” god forbid, to watch KU administer the posterior denting Missouri so deserves. Every day of their sporting lives.
GO KU!!!
“Problem is, if you really WANT a Utopia, then you give up your freedom. Utopian societies only have possibility of existence in a Totalitarian State.”
————-
Chas: Let me try to draw you back in from wherever it is you’ve gone to.
My point, is that there was no reason to bring it up, except for perhaps Obama was afraid of someone else spilling the beans about his past drug use.
Wouldn’t it have been nice for Obama to have been a role model that kids could look to when they have their struggle with resisting the pressure to try drugs? Can’t happen now. They will have to look elsewhere. Where, I wonder?
But — outlander — He already had that information in print… in his BOOK!! About his Father??Remember??
Also — please get the sequence of events right — Obama was answering questions… The one he answered regarding his youthful drug and alcohol use, was a question asked by an ADULT…
So, yes, he made those remarks in front of kids… but in answer to an ADULT question — I sort of somehow think that has been ignored here today…
A friend of mine is a defense attorney. A while back he had a client who was caught with cocaine on I-35.
The guy was charged with possession of 12 ounces of pure cocaine “with intention to sell.” Except, he’d been arrested with a pound of coke. The local law enforcement officers took four ounces for themselves. To use? To sell? Just for kicks?
When my attorney friend brought this up to the local prosecutor, the charge was quickly changed to simple posession of “a controlled substance” (pretty much the same as getting caught with a marijuana roach) and the defendant was released on a suspended sentence.
All past and current tactics in the “War on Drugs” have failed.
Perhaps it’s time for a different approach.
“Truth is the first casualty of war” it is said.We stopped telling the truth, in this war, long ago.
Drugs are awful. Those who live with addicts live in hell and will show those scars forever.
However, the cure is often worse than the disease, where the government is involved.
I never claimed that I had solutions for all of the problems that I have mentioned.
At least, in my defense, I recognize the problems.
The corruption of law enforcement, the enrichment of gangs, the current availability of any illegal drug anyone wants — I say this is failure.
Should we double our efforts at doing the same thing?
Or, should we allocate future resources better?
It’s scary Paul – you and I agree almost entirely. Well, signing off to focus on the game with a pot of tea. Pretty much plain ordinary Dillon’s tea. The strongest drug in my evening repertoire any more.
But, before I go, a funny from a concersation with a very conservative lawyer friend. He does a lot of court-appointed defense work including domestic violence. He commented that the vast majority of his cases involved drugs – primarily alcohol. He favors legalizing marijuana; noting that he has never seen a DV case where the drug involved was grass. He told me that, in his opinion, it would be impossible for that to happen because grass just makes the user mellow and laid back.
Well, me being me (arguementative) I had to challenge him – it COULD happen. He stood his ground saying NO WAY and challenged me to tell him how it could happen.
“Simple. A guy gets home from work, smokes some good weed, and eats every Oreo in the house. Wife comes home and beats the crap out of him!”
“Yea, maybe so. But that would never get to Court.”
Well, I had to concede that to him!
;^)
BenYou “pot” head!
Pot of tea is still pot!
lol
Obama should be a stand up guy like bush, and just flatly refuse to answer any question about drug use.
Funny story, “Ben” –
It goes back to the absolute falsehood of “Reefer Madness.”
If you’ve ever seen that 1930s flick, the absurdity of anti-marijuana propaganda was positively counter-productive to anyone who’d actually experienced pot.
And that’s the problem with over-selling the “evils” of recreational drug use.
I think it was H.L. Mencken who, commenting on Prohibition, noted the “Christian” fundamentalists whose only cause in life is to object to the fact that “…someone, somewhere, might be having a good time.”
I can’t remember the last time I smoked pot — then again, they say it affects short-term memory. ;-) — and I never had enough money to actually *buy* some cocaine (although it was at a few parties I attended in the 80s). I did a hit of windowpane in 1976, I think, and had a nice conversation with God… but the three days afterwards persuaded me not to bother with LSD again. I never wanted to do heroin, although I probably could’ve. I remember a co-worker telling me, “the first time you do smack, it’s the absolute best feeling you can ever imagine… better than sex, better than love, better than supreme comfort… and you run the risk of trying to achieve it again.” He eventually kicked, but if it comes down to me on my death bed, I might consider a fix… just to go there.
For the last 20 years or so, a good Cabernet Sauvignon with a piece of well-marbled medium-rare beefsteak is about the most “dangerous” drug I’ve consumed.
I am of the generation that experimented with drugs and, like Obama, I figured it was a waste of time and a waste of money.
I suspect those of us born after World War II probably constitute a majority of likely presidential voters in 2008.
‘Cuz ya know something? Some of those drugs make ya feel good.
Nobody’s anti-drug message has addressed the fact that drugs make you feel good. Nicotine, alcohol, marijuana, cocaine, heroin, Japanese blow-fish, South American tree frogs…. there’s a seminal appeal there.
Even 2nd Graders on the playground spin around ’til they fall down… just to experience an altered state of reality.
If you like a cup of coffee over breakfast or a smoke after sex, you’re part of the “drug culture.” If you crave chocolate sometimes, you’re in it for the drug.
As “ksgrm” (of all people!) noted up-thread, there seems to be evidence that there are “adictive personalities,” whose personal behavior ruins lives. People get addicted to food (Overeaters Anonymous), to gambling (Gamblers Anonymous), to chocolate (Chocoholics), to work (Workoholics), to sex, to alcohol, to emotions, to internet blogs.
Ten thousand years of civilization has not dealt effectively with eliminating the temptations.
So maybe, just perhaps, dealing with people who are enclined to be addicted to booze, sex, drugs, food, gambling, the Red Sox… rather than try to outlaw the object of their temptations, soceity should provide help for the *people* rather than concentrate on the objects of their obsessions.
—–
SEE, Germie… if you actually READ what is posted, you wont make stupid comments!!
Chas why do you think you have to resort to name calling? Do you really have such a low opinion of your statements that you think they can’t stand on their own?
I said and I repeat that saying this in front of impressionable youth is poor judgement. You say the book is out. Great. How many of these kids do you think have read or will read it? Get real.
Just as I am you are allowed your own opinion. Please show some common courtesy in speaking to other posters. Then you won’t have to drop your jaw when others talk back in the way you demonstrate they should.
Monkey interesting post above. What was your reaction to the Rush Limbaugh situation?
This man had a very personal addiction made into national news by the democrat party in Florida. His personal medical records were leaked to the Enquirer. Libs all over the country wanted to jail him. Were you one of those? Were you out there telling the authorities to get him help?
Is it selective outrage because it is Obama being challenged or did the anger at Limbaugh show a decided bias by the libs and the liberal press?
Consistency on the blog today has been flipped upside down. Econ is agreeing with Ben, JR and CHas. You are now telling us we should live and let live.
Is that for everyone?
It seems no matter what the topic most of the “CONS” believe the right thing to do is “LIE” and /or “DECEIVE”, and yet still think of them selves as Christian.
Maybe you “CONS” should re-read the BIBLE. JESUS is about the TRUTH so you should find a way to live in, and except the TRUTH. No matter how hard that is for you. Other wise you make your religion just another one of your hypocrisies.
Repuke what in the world are you talking about? Doesn’t fit anything I have read today.
ksgrm – re: Rush. I only noted that, according to Rush, Rush is a ‘dreg of humanity’. I never caled Rush anything; Rush did.
Ben I was merely pointing out the hipocricy of the left on this issue. No matter what Rush called himself, Monkey was saying we shouldn’t punish adicts, we should help them. I remember the feeding frenzy on the blog when that story was broken by the left in Florida. None of the ‘goodwill’ we see today for Obama.
In reality Obama has made several errors in judgement in statements he has made this being but one. Hard as it is to admit, Hillary had it right when she refuted his statement about traveling a lot as a youngster qualifying him in foreign policy.
“Voters will have to judge if living in a foreign country at the age of 10 prepares one to face the big, complex international challenges the next president will face,”
His inexperience is showing.
ksgrm – Rush was targeted because Rush said he should be punished severely. All the left did was agree with him. I don’t recall Obama ever calling himself a dreg of humanity. I DO recall Rush doijg that. Rush simply got his own words directed back at him.
I have known people who have gotten addicted to pain pills and would normally be sympathetic. However, Rush told me NOT to be sympathetic.
His inexperience is showing.
On that we agree.
Back to the game – lookingbad for KU
“ksgrm” –
Here and I believed you when you said you never paid attention to Rush Limbaugh. Sorry for my gullibility.
Frankly, the Limbaugh/Oxycontin controversy had more to do the his hypocrisy regarding “drug offenders” rather than his manipulation of Florida law to doctor-shop, then force his employee to sell him thousands of doses of black market drugs.
Indeed, Limbaugh functioned at his best as long as he got his drug-of-choice… until his drug addiction robbed him of his hearing.
See, that’s one of the ironies of the whole drug issue, “ksgrm.” As long as you’re rich enough and powerful enough you can probably sustain your life, regardless of your addiction.
As I recall, you jumped into this thread when I positied that the worst consequence of using marijuana is getting caught with it.
Limbaugh had the money and the power to sustain his drug habit. Yes, the drugs affected his hearing (not his thinking?), but he had the money to get the surgical technology to deal with it.
See, I just don’t understand the supposed logic involved. If people are “addicitive personalities,” why is the object of law focused on what they’re addicted to, rather than the addicts? Why is society’s response to make the person a criminal?
I don’t remember that comment from Rush. I do remember an apology to his listeners for what he saw as a personal failure.
Even the ACLU was on his side as the left released his very private medical records to the press. Where was the outrage when this happened.
Rush can take care of himself but the lefts outrage was so contrived and the jublilation over the top.
I would just like to see some balance. How many times today has Bush’s DWI been brought up as if somehow that makes Obama ok with this statement? Bush isn’t running for prez anymore. This was vetted over and over when he was.
Very bad for KU. We are Sooner fans being from Oklahoma but it doesn’t look as if it’s going to be the Jayhawks going against them in the Big 12 finale.
ksgrm – years ago I used to listen to Rush. He would rant that ALL drug users were dregs of humanity. So, since he himself was a drug abuser he was mired in self-loathing. THAT is the irony as MH noted.
ksgrm
Rush Limbaugh regularly rails against those on welfare.
Rush was once himself on welfare.
Rush Limbaugh has advocated BEFORE his addiction was outed that drug abusers be severely punished.
So yes, when it came out that Rush was a drug addict, the left ran with it.
Personally? I had listened to that vile man for several years before he “came clean”. When his addiction was revealed, I felt sorry for him. I knew he would go through horrible withdrawl.
I was WRONG to feel sorry for him. The experience taught him nothing. He is STILL a vile hypocritical creep.
Know what I wish? I wish someone had video of Rush in withdrawl! I’d LOVE to see him vomiting all over himself and BEGGING for a fix.
Know what I bet? I bet he is STILL on the pills. He’s just more careful now.
Actually Monkey I think I got in much sooner than that. I have stated that I am not in favor of jailing drug users for small and infrequent usage. I am also not in favor of political candidates talking about their illegal drug usage while talking to high school students as a candidate for the job of POTUS.
I actually don’t listen to Rush unless I am in my car when he is on. My point is that when the person in question is one you don’t like then it is ok to criminalize them but not when it is someone you like.
As for the ‘facts’ you mentioned. Where did those come from the National Enquirer? That rag with a great track record for the truth. This is what I mean. You wanted to malign him and would believe any source if it supported your view.
Just pointing out the hipocracy.
JR I don’t hate anyone as much as you apparently do Rush. I won’t let anyone have that much control over my life.
I have a severe dislike for Hillary. She is scary. I even like Bill better than her but I don’t think Obama is presidential material and his misjudgements and statements are sinking him.
In reality Obama has made several errors in judgement in statements he has made this being but one.
Posted by: ksgrm | November 24, 2007 at 09:17 PM
Are you saying the mistake is that he did not lie or deceive.
If he did lie and deceive on this subject would you than find him presidential material.
george bush is a recovering coke addict and drunk.
you voted for him because he claims to be a christian.
you should be sent to iraq asap to defend george bush’s honer.like he has any.
what is this ?
ex Krack Heads anonymous?
I can understand why most drugs are illegal, like heroin, meth and crack. I can’t understand why hemp is illegal though. First off, its a weed, that grows all over the world. secondly, its use as a drug has been documented as far back as 4000 years ago. Thirdly on drugs which do the most harm to you, the rankings are,
Class ACocaine/crackHeroinEcstasyLSDMagic mushroomsCrystal meth (pending)
Class BAmphetamines
Class CCannabisKetamine
Alcohol is the 5th most dangerous substance abused while Hemp is 10th, and tobacco is 8th.
Oh, I used the word dangerous, I meant to use the word harmful, or health adverse.
Thanks WhiteElephant
Alcohol and Tabacco is less harmful than pot. Go figure…
I will tell my kids the same thing my dad told me about pot. There is nothing wrong with it, our forefathers smoked it for generations and buy stock in the snack food industry…
Thanks WhiteElephant
Alcohol and Tabacco is more harmful than pot. Go figure…
I will tell my kids the same thing my dad told me about pot. There is nothing wrong with it, our forefathers smoked it for generations and buy stock in the snack food industry…
doubled it, oh well, see the bottom one, i corrected myself…
Germie, I fail to see anywhere that I called you any names?? Are you having trouble with your reading glasses again?? And besides, you never did respond to my point that Obama DID say that he wasted time and energy in his younger days, and that he did NOT encourage kids to do what he had done.. in fact, just the opposite!
Please try to read what I post, instead of what you think you want me to post so you can attack it?? Ok???
Nite now!!
Tony – I think he said cannibis is LESS harmful that alcohol or tobacco.
I really hope Obama can find a way to win the primary. If he can, I do not think he will have any trouble in November.
Alot of the people who messed with drugs, did so out of ignorance of the potential consquences. For example, pot was widely available, made you feel good, but in the late 70’s, when cocaine hit the streets, many changed venue, not knowing it was way different than pot.
I personally feel pot is less harmful than alcohol in many cases. But, the difference is that alcohol can be used in moderation, and the user feels the most mild euphoria, but pot is used to get a more intense high, every time. In other words, smoking pot is better for you than getting smashed, but worse for you than 2 beers.
The drugs beyond that, like cocaine, meth, heroin, they are pure poisen, they are the devil! But believe it or not, simple old alcohol can, for some people who are predisposed, screw up your life! (cough cough) I know!