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“In many ways, the shifting political fortunes may owe as much to the absence of bad news as to any particular good news. No one lately has been indicted, botched a hurricane relief effort or shot someone in a hunting accident.”
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/11/18/AR2007111801449.html?hpid=topnews
This president sets such high standards…
The aim of public education is not to spread enlightenment at all, it is simply to reduce as many individuals as possible to the same safe level, to breed and train a standardized citizenry, to put down dissent and originality.
— H L. Mencken
Hey there Unknown — Would you care to add some kind of link to that alleged statement by Mencken, or else add the full context of the statement??
Thanks!!
– Long Time Mencken Reader –
I really don’t like NCLB (No Child Left Behind), has anyone hear anything from the senate or house about the changes to the bill?
U.S. Senator John Kerry304 Russell BuildingThird FloorWashington DC 20510
Dear Senator Kerry:
So glad to hear from you regarding the Swift Boat Veterans for Truth political ad campaign, and an offer I made public at an American Spectator dinner in Washington, D.C. last week. I am intrigued by your letter, and am certainly open to your challenge.
My concern at the Spectator Dinner was, and continues to be, that you and other political figures were and are maligning the Swift Boat Veterans, and I want to prevent this important part of American history from being unfairly portrayed.
In order to disprove the accuracy of the Swift Boat ads, I will ultimately need you to provide the following:
1) The journal you maintained during your service in Vietnam.2) Your military record, specifically your service records for the years1971-1978, and copies of all movies and tapes made during yourservice.
When you have done so, if you can then prove anything in the ads was materially untrue, I will gladly award $1 million. As you know, I have been a long and proud supporter of the American military and veterans’ causes. I now challenge you to make this commitment: If you cannot prove anything in the Swift Boat ads to be untrue, that you will make a $1 million gift to the charity I am choosing — the Medal of Honor Foundation.
Sincerely,
T. Boone Pickens
Over the past few months I have read post after post lamenting how bad the economy is and then low and behold the headline in the WE “Local economy’s strength help nonprofits”. I,m sure all of the mistaken progressives who thought things were so bad will join me in giving a hearty Thank You to George W. Bush. He came through again for our nation.
That’s a joke right ?
Another Admin. defection:http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20071119/pl_nm/bush_adviser_dc_1
Sounds like Pickens is backpedaling; the challenge was to “prove even one claim was a inaccurate”. Now he wants all of his records, no doubt so he can do a bone dig.
BRITISH COMMANDER EXPLAINS HOW TO STOP ATTACKS IN IRAQ . . . JUST LEAVE
Attacks against British and Iraqi forces have plunged by 90 percent in southern Iraq since London withdrew its troops from the main city of Basra, the commander of British forces there said Thursday.
The presence of British forces in downtown Basra, Iraq’s second-largest city, was the single largest instigator of violence, Maj. Gen. Graham Binns told reporters Thursday on a visit to Baghdad’s Green Zone.
“We thought, ‘If 90 percent of the violence is directed at us, what would happen if we stepped back?’” Binns said.
Britain’s 5,000 troops moved out of a former Saddam Hussein palace at Basra’s heart in early September, setting up a garrison at an airport on the city’s edge. Since that pullback, there’s been a “remarkable and dramatic drop in attacks,” Binns said.
“The motivation for attacking us was gone, because we’re no longer patrolling the streets,” he said.
http://www.iht.com/articles/ap/2007/11/15/africa/ME-GEN-Iraq-Basra.php
In a related story, the president of Ecuador said he would allow the United States to continue to station troops there but only if the United States allowed an Ecuadorian Army Base in MIAMI.
We’ll see how that works out, heheheh . . .
The Mencken quote is rather well known. It appeared in one of the early editions of his “The American Mercury” magazine. A quick Google search showed it to be the April 1924 edition. I didn’t spend a lot of time looking, but I didn’t find the original source article. I did find this quote, though, which, I believe, puts the Mencken quote in context:
John Taylor Gatto argues that American education was designed to strip students of their power, and teach them obedience in order to prepare them to fill the millions of factory jobs that were opening up at the turn of the last century. These early “visionaries” of public education followed a Prussian model of pedagogy that had the suppression of democracy as a stated goal. This resulted, according to H. L. Mencken, in a school system whose real goal was “simply to reduce as many individuals as possible to the same safe level, to breed and train a standardized citizenry, to put down dissent and originality.” The key words in education today—“standardization,” “mainstreaming,” “efficiency”—show that we continue to march to the beat of the same pedagogical drums; in fact, we may have sped them up to brush aside any time for creative thinking in favor of increasing test scores.
http://www.americanpopularculture.com/archive/bestsellers/harry_potter.htm
_________
Perhaps the original Unknown Poster has a link to the original source?
Hilarious site showing actual clips from Fox News http://foxnewsporn.com/ you know, the “family values” channel that airs soft-core segments just so they can talk about how “bad society is becoming.”
Uh, yeah. Right.
I guess it worked better on you than on most people, eh, Dave.
1924 . . . that’s the year that the CONs want to turn back the clock to — before the Great Society, before the New Deal.
I thought teaching kids to enslave themselves to factories is what you CONs were all in favor of.
What’s your problem with “disempowering” people? That’s your stock in trade–that’s why you’re against women’s right to choose abortion, against unions, against gay marriage, against “socialism” (gov’t helping people who need help).
No wonder Fox has such loyal viewers!
Heckler–
Pickens is a typical CON: he throws down a bet and then wants to change it when somebody takes him up on it.
The original bet was 1 million if someone – anyone could show a single argument of the Swift Boat Liars to be false.
Kerry takes him up on the challenge and all of a sudden there are all kinds of provisos and conditions placed on the bet.
Bush CONs: no honor, no sacrifice, no shame
JM/Capn,
Were you attempting to indict the public education system or compliment me?
(Sorry about including too many options in the above post… In the future, I’ll try to keep your questions bi-polar. That seems rather appropriate, don’t you think?.)
Pickens probably realized that Kerry through his connections has had time to “doctor” documents in four years.
Oh, by the way Capn, I am assuming, since you were discussing public education, and you were noting your assertions about how awful it is for conservatives to be againt certain things (even providing a list of what you think conservative agenda items are), that we can posit based on your list, then, you believe the goal of public education to be teaching:
1. women’s right to choose abortion2. unions3. gay marriage4. socialism
Are you planning a run for the School Board any time soon?
Actually, didn’t it start out as a challenge? Not the same as a bet, now he wants Kerry to put up a mil. and provide a laundry list of substantiation. You can’t trust someone like that.
Update on the Bushonomy: Nov. Dow losses headed for worst Nov. since Nov. 2002.
Well, actually Mr. Pickins isn’t asking Kerry for anything that Kerry hasn’t already promised on many occasions.
Kerry has merely pretended to accept the challenge to save face. I have $100 that says Mr. T. Boone Pickins will never have to pay the million.
He’s already crawfished out of the challenge is now framing it as a bet. Since he’d be making the determination, it’s a bet that can’t be won.
Well Phantom,
You need to read the letter from Mr. Pickens again. He didn’t make it a bet. He merely suggested (from one billionaire to another) that Kerry step up and do something for veterans if he couldn’t prove the Swift Boat Veterans lied.
Imagine, Pickens offers to pay a million dollars to anyone. . .and then he wants proof! Well, If they lied, Kerry should have the proof!
Looks like Wichita is going to break another temp. record today.
Pickens is shady. He made most of his money from blackmailing corps., by threatening takeovers, and firing management. Just to get bought off.
Dirty ol’ meany capitalist!
“You need to read the letter from Mr. Pickens again. He didn’t make it a bet. He merely suggested (from one billionaire to another) that Kerry step up and do something for veterans if he couldn’t prove the Swift Boat Veterans lied.
“Imagine, Pickens offers to pay a million dollars to anyone. . .and then he wants proof! Well, If they lied, Kerry should have the proof!”
The burden of proof is on those who make the allegations. Pickens challenge or wager or whatever you want to call it is as cynical as all get out. To make charges against someone then say, “prove we lied”, is to force the person who is charged to work under the assumption that the charges are true. It’s a cheap way to shift the burden of proof from those who make the claims. The Swift Boat charges were questionable innuendo from the get-go.
http://www.factcheck.org/republican-funded_group_attacks_kerrys_war_record.html
Factcheck is a non-partisan site that sets out to evaluate claims made by and about candidates.
And Pickens is simply a mean and corrupt sob.
T. Boone Pickens–another democracy-hating, Texas oil hack. No surprise to see him backpedalling from his phony challenge to Kerry. Not one ball among any of the Texas oil Nazis and their goon squad of character assassains.
Not one ball. Not one.
I like what MDP said last November. Kerry could have stayed at sea, but he volunteered for the brown water navy. His Purple Hearts, OK, maybe he didn’t deserve three, I don’t know, I (or Boone Pickens) wasn’t there) but he put himself in harm’s way and got nicked.
Unlike the Chimpster who used daddy’s influence to get a cush posting and ran like a little girl when the shootin’ was over.
“Kerry hacked it…Bush packed it. End of discussion.Posted by: MDP | November 02, 2006 at 11:41 PM”
Go MDP.
A actual good plan to end Illegal Immigration? No details, just some news.
“Rep. Heath Shuler has just introduced the SAVE Act (H.R. 4088), legislation that will broaden and enhance border security and interior enforcement. And it would mandate that ALL employers use a proven system to weed out illegal aliens. With more than 100 border security Republicans and Democrats already agreeing to co-sponsor, this bipartisan effort may be Congress’s best chance to achieve substantial immigration reform with this Congress.”
More on the unprecedented bi-partisan illegal immigration Bill from Shuler’s Websitehttp://shuler.house.gov/press07/110607_SAVEAct_PressSheet.pdf
Just substitute the word “jew” for “illegal alien.” Is this the final solution?
Yep, ol’war hero Kerry.
Claims two tours Viet Nam. One of which was off the coast, transfered early. Other on a swift boat, left early. His two tours were less than four months ‘in country’.
His fitness reports on the skimmer were such that he probably would never be recommended for command. They were crap. Many think this is why he volunteered for the brown water Navy.
When he volunteered for the ‘brown water Navy’ the swift boats were being used for coastal patrol. An easy assignment, not too dangerous. Imagine the look on Lurch’s face when he found out they were being sent inland!
Hero? You betcha. He’s the most decorated four month hero in the history of warfare.
Hank
Hank Price,
That was an even lamer attempt at character assassination than your usual ones.
And George Bush got how close to Vietnam, Hank? And was AWOL for how long?
Typical repub bs “Prove you don’t have WMD’s”, “Prove our allegations are false”.
Hank,Did T. Boone Pickens serve in the armed forces? I’ve done a google search and I can’t find anything that indicates he did.
I got this theory. If you didn’t have the stones to serve, you have no business criticizing anybody’s service record who did serve.
Seems a little chickenshit to me.
George Bush had a pretty honorable career. Never was AWOL. Never lied about the troops in Viet Nam. Pretty good pilot according to his mates.
Bush signed the 180 form allow full disclosure of his military records, something Lurch still hasn’t done.
If you want to talk about draft dodgers how come you guys give Clinton a pass?
Clinton had more courage than bush.
Clinton took a stand. History shows that stand was correct.
bush used his connections to run away and hide in the shadows.
It IS so good to know that the skies of Alabama and Texas were so well protected though!
Hey XXX,
Chickenshit? When you’re an old billionaire from Texas, eccentric is the proper word.
Hank
Hank Price,
Seems like you’re bucking for a name-change: “half-truth Hank.
Lots of weird stuff in his service record, particularly his request to be sent to Alabama, followed by no pay stubs or records of his having ever showed up for duty or having performed required drills.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_W._Bush_military_service_controversy
But if that what counts for ‘pretty honorable’ in your universe, Hank Price, who am I to disagree?
Wait a minute,XXX! If you didn’t serve, that means you’re chickenshit if you criticise someone that did?
Did you just call junior a chickenshit? He aint old enough to be eccentric yet.
It’d be a bitter pill for Rush Limbaugh to swallow if it were shown that the Swift Boat liars were liars.
However, Rush has proven that he’s willing to swallow as many pills as it takes to endure his lies . . .
Hey CF2K,
He got an honorable discharge from the Air National Guard. Talking about AWOL, nobody’s seen Lurch’s discharge. He just quit going to Navy reserve mettings. Didn’t get his honorable discharge until Carter gave it to him.
Oh, by the way, did you serve in the military?
Hank
Good afternoon Captain!
Don’t hold your breath while Lurch proves the Swift Boat Veterans lied about his service.
If he could prove them liars he would be president today.
Hank,You never did answer my question.Did T. Boone Pickens serve?
Yup.
Thank God we got four more years of Bush, right, Hank?
Coot? er…Hank?
I do not call what bush did service. More like hiding in plain sight.
XXX–
Of course not.
He’s a rich CON. They hire other people to do that . . .
Hank Price,
No military experience at all on my part. Never claimed any. Doesn’t mean I can’t call bullsh*t on your spreading slander and lies about someone else’s, though. And the fact that you happened to have been in the military doesn’t put you above criticism, either. Bona fides don’t count here; arguments do.
“Bush’s six-year obligation to serve required him to maintain his immediate readiness as an individual and a member of a unit to be called to active duty in the event of a national emergency. Bush’s military records indicate that until May 1972 he fulfilled that obligation. But from that point on, Bush failed to meet the attendance requirements established by Federal law, Department of Defense regulations, and Air Force policies and procedures for “obligated” members of the Air National Guard, and the Air Force requirement for an annual physical examination for pilots.”
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_W._Bush_military_service_controversy
But for ol’ half-truth Hank, it’s just another episode of ‘move along; nothin’ to see here.’
Hey XXX,
I’m not the official biographer of Mr T. Boone, but I don’t think he ever served in the military.
Now, you owe me an answer.
Did you just call junior a chickenshit?
Hey CF2K,
Talk about ‘half truths’! In ‘72 they made Bush’s fighter obsolete. He didn’t have enough time to qualify on the new one and therefore he no longer was qualified to fly and didn’t need a flight physical.
No record of attendance doesn’t mean that there was no attendance or other arrangements made to meet his obligations. The record of his ‘points’ indicate that he had more than the required amount for the Guard every year he served.
Nobody has ever found evidence that his service was nothing but honorable.
I think the general concensus is that bush junior was and is, in fact, a chickenshit.
I think the general concensus is that bush junior was and is, in fact, a chickenshit.
Posted by: J R | November 19, 2007 at 03:34 PM
I got this theory. If you didn’t have the stones to serve, you have no business criticizing anybody’s service record who did serve.
Seems a little chickenshit to me.
Posted by: XXX | November 19, 2007 at 02:27 PM
“Talk about ‘half truths’! In ‘72 they made Bush’s fighter obsolete.”
Posted by Hank Price
And Bush’s squadron continued to fly those “obsolete” fighters in 1973, after Bush left in May 1972.
Hank Price,
Now you’re down to 1/4 truths. Keep trying!
This source seems to check both sides on the Kerry question:
http://www.factcheck.org/article231.html
I have two questions, 1) if Kerry got all of his medals dishonorably, didn’t the Navy make some serious mistakes in handing them out? 2) Shouldn’t the swift boaters be able to prove their allegations since they are the ones who asserted them, instead of Kerry being on the hook to refute them?
In defense of Bush, which I hate to do, my father was in the National Guard in the 1950’s – he claimed their record keeping was incredibly bad.
Prior to records being computerized in the military, records were incredibly bad.
I remember talking to an old finance Chief talking to about the time he lost the pay record for a three star. He jokingly admitted he invented a new style of tap dancing to get out of that one.
Ya know, it’s a funny thing.
I don’t blame bush for going WAY outta his way to avoid Viet nam. I’d just like him to be honest about it.
Cause thing is? I’ve studied alot about bush since I first heard his name mumbled back in 1998 or so. His deliberate and well thought out evasion of service back there? That seems to be the one and only example I can find of thought let alone intelligence that bush has ever demonstrated! I’d think he be proud he has at least the one example.
I joined the Navy Reserve in 1962. It was a small unit at Strother Field.
Records? You want records?
I tried to get some information in 1969 when I was shipping over in the regualar Navy. The unit still existed then and they had no record of my two active duty stints then.
I joined the Navy Reserve in 1962. It was a small unit at Strother Field.
Records? You want records?
I tried to get some information in 1969 when I was shipping over in the regualar Navy. The unit still existed then and they had no record of my two active duty stints then.
Hank – what the heck was the navy doing in Strother? Patrolling the Kaw?
;^)
Hank – what the heck was the navy doing in Strother? Patrolling the Kaw?
;^)
Posted by: Ben | November 19, 2007 at 04:47 PM
Shame on you, Ben!
Thanks to Hank’s service, not one Viet Cong submarine ever got past Winfield!
Actually, as I recall there is some ‘brown-water’ training that is sued for rivers etc. However I think the Coast Guard got pulled into some of that in Nam.
I’ve Googled around, read scores of pieces on the subject, and they all — even the one whose first paragraph asked, “What if Atlanta’s faucets really do go dry?” — seem to end just where my question begins. It’s as if, in each piece, the reporter had reached the edge of some precipice down which no one cares to look, lest we all go over.
Based on the record of the last seven years, we can take it for granted that the Bush administration hasn’t the slightest desire to glance down; that no one in FEMA who matters has given the situation the thought it deserves; and that, on this subject, as on so many others, top administration officials are just hoping to make it to January 2009 without too many more scar marks. But, if not the federal government, shouldn’t somebody be asking? Shouldn’t somebody check out what’s actually down there?
So let me ask it this way: And then?
And then what exactly can we expect? If the southeastern drought is already off the charts in Georgia, then, whether it’s 80 days or 800 days, isn’t there a possibility that Atlanta may one day in the not-so-distant future be without water? And what then?
or as rush says… water, we don’t need no water.
Hey Ben,
We were a small electronics unit. Protecting Cowley County from the terrible red plague.
We were activated for the Cuban Missile Crisis. My mom always thought that was the reason Kruschev backed down.
I was only 17, didn’t even have a tattoo yet.
We were activated for the Cuban Missile Crisis. My mom always thought that was the reason Kruschev backed down.
I was only 17, didn’t even have a tattoo yet.
We were a small electronics unit. Protecting Cowley County from the terrible red plague.
Posted by: Hank Price | November 19, 2007 at 05:44 PM
Yes, but the smell of “Mauer Neur” (spelling?) and APCO refinery more than made up for the “red plague.”
Mauer Neuer was a packing house.
:D
We were activated for the Cuban Missile Crisis. My mom always thought that was the reason Kruschev backed down.
I was only 17, didn’t even have a tattoo yet.
Too bad the Hank Price’s back then we moaning and whining about JFK being soft on communism.
Instead of just facing them down, we could have have a full scale nuclear war.
Damn, the opportunities missed . . .
What are you talking about CapnAmerica?
Here’s another one for the “Oh, Sh*t! Department.”
http://www.afterdowningstreet.org/?q=node/28830
RADIOACTIVE AMMUNITION FIRED IN THE MIDDLE EAST MAY CLAIM MORE LIVES THAN HIROSHIMA AND NAGASAKI
Submitted by davidswanson on Mon, 2007-11-19 21:52. Media
By Sherwood Ross
By firing radioactive ammunition, the U.S., U.K., and Israel may have triggered a nuclear holocaust in the Middle East that, over time, will prove deadlier than the U.S. atomic bombing of Japan.
So much ammunition containing depleted uranium(DU) has been fired, asserts nuclear authority Leuren Moret, “The genetic future of the Iraqi people for the most part, is destroyed.”
“More than ten times the amount of radiation released during atmospheric testing (of nuclear bombs) has been released from depleted uranium weaponry since 1991,” Moret writes, including radioactive ammunition fired by Israeli troops in Palestine.
Moret is an independent U.S. scientist formerly employed for five years at the Lawrence Berkeley National Laboratory and also at the Lawrence Livermore National Laboratory, both of California.
Adds Arthur Bernklau, of Veterans For Constitutional Law, “The long-term effect of DU is a virtual death sentence. Iraq is a toxic wasteland. Anyone who is there stands a good chance of coming down with cancer and leukemia. In Iraq, the birth rate of mutations is totally out of control.”
Moret, a Berkeley, Calif., Environmental Commissioner and past president of the Association for Women Geoscientists, says, “For every genetic defect that we can see now, in future generations there are thousands more that will be expressed.” She adds, “the (Iraq) environment now is completely radioactive.”
Dr. Helen Caldicott, the prominent anti-nuclear crusader, has written: “Much of the DU is in cities such as Baghdad, where half the population of 5 million people are children who played in the burned-out tanks and on the sandy, dusty ground.”
“Children are 10 to 20 times more susceptible to the carcinogenic effects of radiation than adults,” Caldicott wrote. “My pediatric colleagues in Basra, where this ordnance was used in 1991, report a sevenfold increase in childhood cancer and a sevenfold increase in gross congenital abnormalities,” she wrote in her book, “Nuclear Power is not the Answer”(The New Press).
Caldicott goes on to say the two Gulf wars “have been nuclear wars because they have scattered nuclear material across the land, and people—particularly children— are condemned to die of malignancy and congenital disease essentially for eternity.”
Because of the extremely long half-life of uranium 238, one of the radioactive elements in the shells fired, “the food, the air, and the water in the cradle of civilization have been forever contaminated,” Caldicott explained.
Uranium is a heavy metal that enters the body via inhalation into the lung or via ingestion into the GI tract. It is excreted by the kidney, where, if the dose is high enough, it can induce renal failure or kidney cancer. It also lodges in the bones where it causes bone cancer and leukemia, and it is excreted in the semen, where it mutates genes in the sperm, leading to birth deformities.
Nuclear contamination is spreading around the world, Caldicott adds, with heaviest concentrations in regions within a 1,000-mile radius of Baghdad and Afghanistan. These are, notably, northern India, southern Russia, Turkey, Egypt, Saudi Arabia, Tibet, Pakistan, Kuwait, the Gulf emirates, and Jordan.
“Downwind from the radioactive devastation in Iraq, Israel is also suffering from large increases in breast cancer, leukemia and childhood diabetes,” Moret asserts. Doug Rokke, formerly the top U.S. Army DU clean-up officer and now anti-DU crusader, says Israeli tankers fired radioactive shells during the invasion of Lebanon last year. U.S. and NATO forces also used DU ammunition in Kosovo. Rokke says he is quite ill from the effects of DU and that members of his clean-up crew have died from it.
As a result of DU bombardments, Caldicott writes, “Severe birth defects have been reported in babies born to contaminated civilians in Iraq, Yugoslavia, and Afghanistan and the incidence and severity of defects is increasing over time.”Like symptoms have been reported among infants born to U.S. service personnel that fought in the Gulf Wars. One survey of 251 returned Gulf War veterans from Mississippi made by the Veterans Administration found 67% of children born to them suffered from “severe illnesses and deformities.”
Some were born without brains or vital organs or with no arms, hands, or arms, or with hands attached to their shoulders. While U.S. officials deny DU ammunition is dangerous, it is a fact Gulf War veterans were the first Americans ever to fight on a radioactive battlefield, and their children apparently are the first known to display these ghastly deformities.
Soldiers who survived being hit by radioactive ammunition, as well as those who fired it, are falling ill, often showing signs of radiation sickness.
Of the 700,000 U.S. veterans of the first Gulf War, more than 240,000 are on permanent medical disability and 11,000 are dead, published reports indicate. This is an astonishingly high toll from such a short conflict in which fewer than 400 U.S. soldiers were killed on the battlefield.
Of course, “depleted uranium munitions were and remain another causative factor behind Gulf War Syndrome(GWS),” writes Francis Boyle, a leading American authority on international law in his book “Biowarfare and Terrorism,” from Clarity Press Inc.
“The Pentagon continues to deny that there is such a medical phenomenon categorized as GWS—even beyond the point where everyone knows that denial is pure propaganda and disinformation,” Boyle writes.
Boyle contends, “The Pentagon will never own up to the legal, economic, tortious, political, and criminal consequences of admitting the existence of GWS. So U.S. and U.K. veterans of Gulf War I as well as their afterborn children will continue to suffer and die. The same will prove true for U.S. and U.S. veterans of Bush Jr.’s Gulf War II as well as their afterborn children.”
Boyle said the use of DU is outlawed under the 1925 Geneva Convention prohibiting poison gas.
Chalmers Johnson, president of the Japan Policy Research Institute, writes in his “The Sorrows of Empire”(Henry Holt and Co.) that, given the abnormal clusters of childhood cancers and deformities in Iraq as well as Kosovo, the evidence points “toward a significant role for DU.”
By insisting on its use, Johnson adds, “the military is deliberately flouting a 1996 United Nations resolution that classifies DU ammunition as an illegal weapon of mass destruction.”
Moret calls DU “the Trojan Horse of nuclear war.” She describes it as “the weapon that keeps killing.” Indeed, the half-life of Uranium-238 is 4.5-billion years, and as it decays it spawns other deadly radioactive by-products.
Radioactive fallout from DU apparently blew far and wide. Following the initial U.S. bombardment of Iraq in 2003, DU particles traveled 2,400 miles to Great Britain in about a week, where atmospheric radiation quadrupled.
But it is in the Middle East, predominantly Iraq, where the bulk of the radioactive waste has been dumped.
In the early Nineties, the United Kingdom Atomic Energy Authority warned that 50 tons of dust from DU explosions could claim a half million lives from cancer by year 2000. Not 50 tons, but an estimated two thousand radioactive tons have been fired off in the Middle East, suggesting the possibility over time of an even higher death toll.
Dr. Keith Baverstock, a World Health Organization radiation advisor, informed the media, Iraq’s arid climate would increase exposure from its tiny particles as they are blown about and inhaled by the civilian population for years to come.
The civilian death toll from the August, 1945, U.S. atomic bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki has been put at 140,000 and 80,000, respectively. Over time, however, deaths from radiation sickness are thought to have claimed the lives of another 100,000 Japanese civilians.
Moret is an independent U.S. scientist formerly employed for five years at the Lawrence Berkeley National Laboratory and also at the Lawrence Livermore National Laboratory, both of California.
Adds Arthur Bernklau, of Veterans For Constitutional Law, “The long-term effect of DU is a virtual death sentence. Iraq is a toxic wasteland. Anyone who is there stands a good chance of coming down with cancer and leukemia. In Iraq, the birth rate of mutations is totally out of control.”
Moret, a Berkeley, Calif., Environmental Commissioner and past president of the Association for Women Geoscientists, says, “For every genetic defect that we can see now, in future generations there are thousands more that will be expressed.” She adds, “the (Iraq) environment now is completely radioactive.”
Dr. Helen Caldicott, the prominent anti-nuclear crusader, has written: “Much of the DU is in cities such as Baghdad, where half the population of 5 million people are children who played in the burned-out tanks and on the sandy, dusty ground.”
“Children are 10 to 20 times more susceptible to the carcinogenic effects of radiation than adults,” Caldicott wrote. “My pediatric colleagues in Basra, where this ordnance was used in 1991, report a sevenfold increase in childhood cancer and a sevenfold increase in gross congenital abnormalities,” she wrote in her book, “Nuclear Power is not the Answer”(The New Press).
Caldicott goes on to say the two Gulf wars “have been nuclear wars because they have scattered nuclear material across the land, and people—particularly children— are condemned to die of malignancy and congenital disease essentially for eternity.”
Because of the extremely long half-life of uranium 238, one of the radioactive elements in the shells fired, “the food, the air, and the water in the cradle of civilization have been forever contaminated,” Caldicott explained.
Uranium is a heavy metal that enters the body via inhalation into the lung or via ingestion into the GI tract. It is excreted by the kidney, where, if the dose is high enough, it can induce renal failure or kidney cancer. It also lodges in the bones where it causes bone cancer and leukemia, and it is excreted in the semen, where it mutates genes in the sperm, leading to birth deformities.
Nuclear contamination is spreading around the world, Caldicott adds, with heaviest concentrations in regions within a 1,000-mile radius of Baghdad and Afghanistan. These are, notably, northern India, southern Russia, Turkey, Egypt, Saudi Arabia, Tibet, Pakistan, Kuwait, the Gulf emirates, and Jordan.
“Downwind from the radioactive devastation in Iraq, Israel is also suffering from large increases in breast cancer, leukemia and childhood diabetes,” Moret asserts. Doug Rokke, formerly the top U.S. Army DU clean-up officer and now anti-DU crusader, says Israeli tankers fired radioactive shells during the invasion of Lebanon last year. U.S. and NATO forces also used DU ammunition in Kosovo. Rokke says he is quite ill from the effects of DU and that members of his clean-up crew have died from it.
As a result of DU bombardments, Caldicott writes, “Severe birth defects have been reported in babies born to contaminated civilians in Iraq, Yugoslavia, and Afghanistan and the incidence and severity of defects is increasing over time.”Like symptoms have been reported among infants born to U.S. service personnel that fought in the Gulf Wars. One survey of 251 returned Gulf War veterans from Mississippi made by the Veterans Administration found 67% of children born to them suffered from “severe illnesses and deformities.”
Some were born without brains or vital organs or with no arms, hands, or arms, or with hands attached to their shoulders. While U.S. officials deny DU ammunition is dangerous, it is a fact Gulf War veterans were the first Americans ever to fight on a radioactive battlefield, and their children apparently are the first known to display these ghastly deformities.
Soldiers who survived being hit by radioactive ammunition, as well as those who fired it, are falling ill, often showing signs of radiation sickness.
Of the 700,000 U.S. veterans of the first Gulf War, more than 240,000 are on permanent medical disability and 11,000 are dead, published reports indicate. This is an astonishingly high toll from such a short conflict in which fewer than 400 U.S. soldiers were killed on the battlefield.
Of course, “depleted uranium munitions were and remain another causative factor behind Gulf War Syndrome(GWS),” writes Francis Boyle, a leading American authority on international law in his book “Biowarfare and Terrorism,” from Clarity Press Inc.
“The Pentagon continues to deny that there is such a medical phenomenon categorized as GWS—even beyond the point where everyone knows that denial is pure propaganda and disinformation,” Boyle writes.
Boyle contends, “The Pentagon will never own up to the legal, economic, tortious, political, and criminal consequences of admitting the existence of GWS. So U.S. and U.K. veterans of Gulf War I as well as their afterborn children will continue to suffer and die. The same will prove true for U.S. and U.S. veterans of Bush Jr.’s Gulf War II as well as their afterborn children.”
Boyle said the use of DU is outlawed under the 1925 Geneva Convention prohibiting poison gas.
Chalmers Johnson, president of the Japan Policy Research Institute, writes in his “The Sorrows of Empire”(Henry Holt and Co.) that, given the abnormal clusters of childhood cancers and deformities in Iraq as well as Kosovo, the evidence points “toward a significant role for DU.”
By insisting on its use, Johnson adds, “the military is deliberately flouting a 1996 United Nations resolution that classifies DU ammunition as an illegal weapon of mass destruction.”
Moret calls DU “the Trojan Horse of nuclear war.” She describes it as “the weapon that keeps killing.” Indeed, the half-life of Uranium-238 is 4.5-billion years, and as it decays it spawns other deadly radioactive by-products.
Radioactive fallout from DU apparently blew far and wide. Following the initial U.S. bombardment of Iraq in 2003, DU particles traveled 2,400 miles to Great Britain in about a week, where atmospheric radiation quadrupled.
But it is in the Middle East, predominantly Iraq, where the bulk of the radioactive waste has been dumped.
In the early Nineties, the United Kingdom Atomic Energy Authority warned that 50 tons of dust from DU explosions could claim a half million lives from cancer by year 2000. Not 50 tons, but an estimated two thousand radioactive tons have been fired off in the Middle East, suggesting the possibility over time of an even higher death toll.
Dr. Keith Baverstock, a World Health Organization radiation advisor, informed the media, Iraq’s arid climate would increase exposure from its tiny particles as they are blown about and inhaled by the civilian population for years to come.
The civilian death toll from the August, 1945, U.S. atomic bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki has been put at 140,000 and 80,000, respectively. Over time, however, deaths from radiation sickness are thought to have claimed the lives of another 100,000 Japanese civilians.
Moret is an independent U.S. scientist formerly employed for five years at the Lawrence Berkeley National Laboratory and also at the Lawrence Livermore National Laboratory, both of California.
Adds Arthur Bernklau, of Veterans For Constitutional Law, “The long-term effect of DU is a virtual death sentence. Iraq is a toxic wasteland. Anyone who is there stands a good chance of coming down with cancer and leukemia. In Iraq, the birth rate of mutations is totally out of control.”
Moret, a Berkeley, Calif., Environmental Commissioner and past president of the Association for Women Geoscientists, says, “For every genetic defect that we can see now, in future generations there are thousands more that will be expressed.” She adds, “the (Iraq) environment now is completely radioactive.”
Dr. Helen Caldicott, the prominent anti-nuclear crusader, has written: “Much of the DU is in cities such as Baghdad, where half the population of 5 million people are children who played in the burned-out tanks and on the sandy, dusty ground.”
“Children are 10 to 20 times more susceptible to the carcinogenic effects of radiation than adults,” Caldicott wrote. “My pediatric colleagues in Basra, where this ordnance was used in 1991, report a sevenfold increase in childhood cancer and a sevenfold increase in gross congenital abnormalities,” she wrote in her book, “Nuclear Power is not the Answer”(The New Press).
Caldicott goes on to say the two Gulf wars “have been nuclear wars because they have scattered nuclear material across the land, and people—particularly children— are condemned to die of malignancy and congenital disease essentially for eternity.”
Because of the extremely long half-life of uranium 238, one of the radioactive elements in the shells fired, “the food, the air, and the water in the cradle of civilization have been forever contaminated,” Caldicott explained.
Uranium is a heavy metal that enters the body via inhalation into the lung or via ingestion into the GI tract. It is excreted by the kidney, where, if the dose is high enough, it can induce renal failure or kidney cancer. It also lodges in the bones where it causes bone cancer and leukemia, and it is excreted in the semen, where it mutates genes in the sperm, leading to birth deformities.
Nuclear contamination is spreading around the world, Caldicott adds, with heaviest concentrations in regions within a 1,000-mile radius of Baghdad and Afghanistan. These are, notably, northern India, southern Russia, Turkey, Egypt, Saudi Arabia, Tibet, Pakistan, Kuwait, the Gulf emirates, and Jordan.
“Downwind from the radioactive devastation in Iraq, Israel is also suffering from large increases in breast cancer, leukemia and childhood diabetes,” Moret asserts. Doug Rokke, formerly the top U.S. Army DU clean-up officer and now anti-DU crusader, says Israeli tankers fired radioactive shells during the invasion of Lebanon last year. U.S. and NATO forces also used DU ammunition in Kosovo. Rokke says he is quite ill from the effects of DU and that members of his clean-up crew have died from it.
As a result of DU bombardments, Caldicott writes, “Severe birth defects have been reported in babies born to contaminated civilians in Iraq, Yugoslavia, and Afghanistan and the incidence and severity of defects is increasing over time.”Like symptoms have been reported among infants born to U.S. service personnel that fought in the Gulf Wars. One survey of 251 returned Gulf War veterans from Mississippi made by the Veterans Administration found 67% of children born to them suffered from “severe illnesses and deformities.”
Some were born without brains or vital organs or with no arms, hands, or arms, or with hands attached to their shoulders. While U.S. officials deny DU ammunition is dangerous, it is a fact Gulf War veterans were the first Americans ever to fight on a radioactive battlefield, and their children apparently are the first known to display these ghastly deformities.
Soldiers who survived being hit by radioactive ammunition, as well as those who fired it, are falling ill, often showing signs of radiation sickness.
Of the 700,000 U.S. veterans of the first Gulf War, more than 240,000 are on permanent medical disability and 11,000 are dead, published reports indicate. This is an astonishingly high toll from such a short conflict in which fewer than 400 U.S. soldiers were killed on the battlefield.
Of course, “depleted uranium munitions were and remain another causative factor behind Gulf War Syndrome(GWS),” writes Francis Boyle, a leading American authority on international law in his book “Biowarfare and Terrorism,” from Clarity Press Inc.
“The Pentagon continues to deny that there is such a medical phenomenon categorized as GWS—even beyond the point where everyone knows that denial is pure propaganda and disinformation,” Boyle writes.
Boyle contends, “The Pentagon will never own up to the legal, economic, tortious, political, and criminal consequences of admitting the existence of GWS. So U.S. and U.K. veterans of Gulf War I as well as their afterborn children will continue to suffer and die. The same will prove true for U.S. and U.S. veterans of Bush Jr.’s Gulf War II as well as their afterborn children.”
Boyle said the use of DU is outlawed under the 1925 Geneva Convention prohibiting poison gas.
Chalmers Johnson, president of the Japan Policy Research Institute, writes in his “The Sorrows of Empire”(Henry Holt and Co.) that, given the abnormal clusters of childhood cancers and deformities in Iraq as well as Kosovo, the evidence points “toward a significant role for DU.”
By insisting on its use, Johnson adds, “the military is deliberately flouting a 1996 United Nations resolution that classifies DU ammunition as an illegal weapon of mass destruction.”
Moret calls DU “the Trojan Horse of nuclear war.” She describes it as “the weapon that keeps killing.” Indeed, the half-life of Uranium-238 is 4.5-billion years, and as it decays it spawns other deadly radioactive by-products.
Radioactive fallout from DU apparently blew far and wide. Following the initial U.S. bombardment of Iraq in 2003, DU particles traveled 2,400 miles to Great Britain in about a week, where atmospheric radiation quadrupled.
But it is in the Middle East, predominantly Iraq, where the bulk of the radioactive waste has been dumped.
In the early Nineties, the United Kingdom Atomic Energy Authority warned that 50 tons of dust from DU explosions could claim a half million lives from cancer by year 2000. Not 50 tons, but an estimated two thousand radioactive tons have been fired off in the Middle East, suggesting the possibility over time of an even higher death toll.
Dr. Keith Baverstock, a World Health Organization radiation advisor, informed the media, Iraq’s arid climate would increase exposure from its tiny particles as they are blown about and inhaled by the civilian population for years to come.
The civilian death toll from the August, 1945, U.S. atomic bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki has been put at 140,000 and 80,000, respectively. Over time, however, deaths from radiation sickness are thought to have claimed the lives of another 100,000 Japanese civilians.
Adds Arthur Bernklau, of Veterans For Constitutional Law, “The long-term effect of DU is a virtual death sentence. Iraq is a toxic wasteland. Anyone who is there stands a good chance of coming down with cancer and leukemia. In Iraq, the birth rate of mutations is totally out of control.”
Moret, a Berkeley, Calif., Environmental Commissioner and past president of the Association for Women Geoscientists, says, “For every genetic defect that we can see now, in future generations there are thousands more that will be expressed.” She adds, “the (Iraq) environment now is completely radioactive.”
Dr. Helen Caldicott, the prominent anti-nuclear crusader, has written: “Much of the DU is in cities such as Baghdad, where half the population of 5 million people are children who played in the burned-out tanks and on the sandy, dusty ground.”
“Children are 10 to 20 times more susceptible to the carcinogenic effects of radiation than adults,” Caldicott wrote. “My pediatric colleagues in Basra, where this ordnance was used in 1991, report a sevenfold increase in childhood cancer and a sevenfold increase in gross congenital abnormalities,” she wrote in her book, “Nuclear Power is not the Answer”(The New Press).
Caldicott goes on to say the two Gulf wars “have been nuclear wars because they have scattered nuclear material across the land, and people—particularly children— are condemned to die of malignancy and congenital disease essentially for eternity.”
Because of the extremely long half-life of uranium 238, one of the radioactive elements in the shells fired, “the food, the air, and the water in the cradle of civilization have been forever contaminated,” Caldicott explained.
Damn, a whole book!! Wow!!
And a very informative book it is!
Leuren Moret, the conspiracy theory nut who sits on the board of the 9/11 truth movement?
Give me a break.
Helen Caldicott renowned anti-nuclear advocate.
When you look at the science of DU munitions it is not nearly as bad as these people would have us believe.
Nathan – I don’t know about Caldicott but I have read a lot about U-238 over the years – and all of it bad.
BTW – this was in my boring IH-type texts and journals.
Ben,
I too have read a bit on DU munitions as well.
Most scientific data on it is not conclusive. All the bad stuff I read is conjecture.
Unless you have something better for me to reference?
It doesn’t help that over half the people CapnAmerica’s post cites as authorities are part of the 9/11 truth movement.
I am not one to promote the ad hominem, but give me a break.
Uh, one would have to lick and chew on Depleted Uranium for a very long time (like 6 lifetimes with 100x the dose) for it to have any effect. DU radiation is an alpha particle and barely travels a couple of inches and can be stopped by a kleenix. It’s viability is very short-lived.
They use DU on armor, as casings for weapons and on aircraft bodies.
Head on out to Boeing and ask them about the DU they use on their aircraft.
I think someone has been reading too many Sci-Fi books.
Good grief, now its also an expert on nuclear radiation? What subject is Kansas NOT an expert in? And you all would take this person seriously? Geez!
Kansas – the issue with DU and other heav metals is when finely devided. That is a lot different from holding a bar of it.
No Sci-fi books kansas – industrial hygiene. That is why with any of these metals they have rather strict controls on machining etc. Vaporizing and burning creates a respirible dust that goes deep into the alveoli.
A similar issue arises with incinerators etc – the very finely divided heavy-metal containing particulate is readily absorbed via the lungs.
All of this was hammered into us in industrial hygiene classes and continuing education over the years.
There are also toxic types of wood when milled. :)
Think about when vaporizing occurs Ben, especially with DU ordinance.
It is unlikely there will be any living organism left in the area of the expanding gas explosion.
DU is measured in one hundredths of a percent of natural uranium.
Here’s the report from the World Health Organization (WHO)
One would probably be exposed to more hazards from heavy metal contamination if they exploded a mercury thermometer or manometer. :)
oops, the link to WHO
http://www.who.int/mediacentre/factsheets/fs257/en/
OK children,
I’ll volunteer to be the BLOG expert on ionizing radiation.
DU is a very minimal health hazard.
I am open for questions.
Hank
In Sunday’s ABC interview on “This Week with George Stephanopoulos,” candidate Fred Thompson said that both courts and families should seek the protection of human life if there is any chance a patient might live, although the Terri Schiavo case was not an end-of-life issue, but an execution of a disabled patient based on the quality of life and the expense of full-time medical care.During the nationwide interview, George Stephanopoulos told Thompson that an autopsy proved that Teri Schiavo was brain dead. [She may have been brain dead, ornearly so, after 13 days of being deprived of food and water, but she was not brain dead or dying or terminally ill before being executed by starvation.]Thompson did not contradict the lie.Thompson had previously essentially opined that federal government should ignore such barbaric executions.- – -
Candidate Mike Huckabee compared the abortion issue to slavery in a nationwide TV interview, suggesting that if abortion were merely a political issue, then Roe v. Wade was wrong in striking down state bans, but as it is in fact a moral issue, then abolition through federal law, as with slavery, is the right solution.- – -
Baby-hating Democrat candidates say the 14th Amendment to the U.S. Constitution specifies a right to privacy, and therefore legalized infanticide, but not a right to life for every person. The word “privacy” does not appear in the 14th Amendment, nor “abortion”, only in the bloodthirsty minds of brutal federal judges; but the right to life for every person does appear, as clearly written into the Amendment. The Amendment doesnot specify that Negroes are persons, and therefore not conveniently expendable, nor does it exclude babies before birth as being considered persons.Democrat presidential candidates are all liars. Oddly enough, most Democrats would want you in jail for mangling, dismembering, poisoning, or beheading a dog, even in the privacy of your home.Dogs hardly qualify as a person with a right to life.Roe v. Wade is not a law, but a court ruling fabricated out of thin air by unelected, unaccountable judges in order to strike down state abortion laws enacted by the ELECTED state legislators.
Hank – I’ll agree with you as long as it is solid (large enough). But NOT when respirable.
Outside of the body the radiation is mostly blocked by the skin. It’s when it is inhaled that it becomes a problem.
Holding a bar of lead in my hand is safe. Breathing vapors of fine dust is not. U-238 is worse.
Ben,
To date there is not any real evidence to show that DU munitions are bad.
The particles quickly settle after becoming vaporized and measurements only a month after contamination show rates of Uranium to be no more than what you would find on average.
Again, do you have any reference which clearly shows otherwise?
Parkay..it’s people like you that give the prolifers a bad name…you are just as much of an extremist as those who believe late term abortion is justified for any reason.
Nathan, why dont you look up something that proves Ben wrong, instead of demanding Ben to find proof to you. That is your usual tactic. I think its time for you to come up with some of your own proofs for the junk science you spew.
:.,
Kansas has already posted a link to the WHO.
Here is one to the IAEA:
http://www.iaea.org/NewsCenter/Features/DU/faq_depleted_uranium.shtml#q3
Care to discuss this anymore?
Here’s a clip on depleted uranium: http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=4063943299788113462
It includes ben’s observations.
One would expect such a report from the IAEA. It is not exactly unbiased in its findings.
Hilarious.
The very same people who would mock me and others for not buying Global Warming are now siding with saying that DU munitions are bad with even more conjecture and less evidence.
Seems that the google video doesnt walk in lock step with the IAEA web site. Hmmmm wonder why that might be?
:.,
Wow, a google video.
If I knew that was the standard you guys wanted, I have got quite a few to show you on why man is not causing Global Warming.
Interested?
Both of the “experts” in the video referenced by The Phantom got ran out of Dodge.
One was even kicked out of the World Health Organization. They have no agenda for the U.S., so evidently they thought his scientific method was lacking.
Nathan – my textbooks are not on-line.
Ben,
I understand that.
I understand your points about industry as well.
You can still give me names and the names of the books or studies which are dealing with DU munitions.
I didnt post the google video. But you make no comment or response on the content of the video. You just try to take another pot shot at the source, rather than argue with the speaker on the video. Try playing the rules of the game some time. People will be less likely to question your intelligence.
http://blogs.kansas.com/weblog/2007/11/open-thread–17.html#comment-90551592
But you make no comment or response on the content of the video. You just try to take another pot shot at the source, rather than argue with the speaker on the video. Try playing the rules of the game some time. People will be less likely to question your intelligence.
Posted by: :. | November 19, 2007 at 10:17 PM
click the link above your comments.
I discussed what I thought of the speakers for the video.
i wasnt talking to you, Kansas. I think Nathan is old enough now to handle this on his own.
Kansas, as is usual, you only posted some ad hominem against the speaker in the video. You said nothing of his content, or his arguments. But thats OK. You cant be an expert on everything.
:)
Hey, calm down, just food for thought. I’ve never really paid any attention to the matter, so haven’t researched it. But if what he says is true, GW Vets. might want to bookmark the video. You know if you start producing offspring with birth defects, or come down with leukemia, or the assorted afflictions mentioned.On the surface, what he says seems to make sense, but then I’m no scientist. But if boeing quit using it on their planes in 1980, you can bet there was a reason for it.
Ben is correct about aerosolized hazardous materials.
However, in order for exploded ordinance or armor plating to be hazardous once again you have to exceed the flash point of the material in order for alpha particles to be released.
We are not talking about milling, we are talking about fragments of DU laying about.
Extremely high temperatures have to be invoked, preferably rapid accelerating temperatures in order of alpha particle deployment to occur.
Sniffing solder is not a good idea either, but it takes temperature to invoke the reactive process.
I guess the best way to think about this is that “welding and arc welding” temperatures would probably needed to be reached before DU causes hazards.
Given your previous remarks about the WHO, and how you are opposed to it, the speaker who was allegedly thrown out of WHO should be a “plus” for the individual, to follow your thoughts on WHO in so many different posts and threads. You want to think that one over, and get back to us?
Kansas, as is usual, you only posted some ad hominem against the speaker in the video. You said nothing of his content, or his arguments. But thats OK. You cant be an expert on everything.
:)
Posted by: :. | November 19, 2007 at 10:24 PM
Then explain what the hazards are and why the WHO says the hazards listed by this organizations are not hazards.
My “ad hominem” was an observation that the two were “outlaws” of the scientific community and they are in a very slim community with results that are scientifically unproven.
kansas – and therein lies the issue with DU munitions. They vaporize upon impact and then crete the sub-5-micron partculate.
Ironically, DU is a critical part of my nuclear power scenario: back-mix decomisioned weapons grade with DU to make fuel grade. Then use that to power a new generation of power plants.
You want to think that one over, and get back to us?
Posted by: :. | November 19, 2007 at 10:26 PM
Okay, I thought about it. I’ll go with the experts at WHO.
That might be what you meant, but it isnt what you said. Just because the WHO threw them out, doesnt necessarily say anything about their scientific methods, and conclusions. But, you already know that. If you are as smart as you think you are, why did Boeing stop using the stuff in the ’80’s?
The speaker mentioned temperatures exceeding 5000 degrees if I recall correctly, would that be hot enough?
An irony about metals including Uranium – they can actually burn. We used to have a lot of fun burnng magnesium ribbon in lab. I can’t remember the British ship but one burned after getting hit by a missle in the Falklands war.
There was a metal fire locally that was a real problem to put out.
Ironically, DU is a critical part of my nuclear power scenario: back-mix decomisioned weapons grade with DU to make fuel grade. Then use that to power a new generation of power plants.
Posted by: Ben | November 19, 2007 at 10:28 PM
Yeah Ben, massive and concentrated quantities of DU under controlled circumstances.
One can get toxic on almost anything if the concentration and the LD/50 is passed.
Evidently, according to the WHO observations and testing, scattered DU parts and munitions are not a health hazard.
WHO today, who tomorror?
Those shaped devices the Iraqis are using against out armor melts the copper slug upon impact. There is a lot of energy released.
Ben is right. However, it has little to do with DU munitions.
Outside the body there is no health hazard from DU. When ingested there is very little hazard because of the long half life and because it is eliminated quite rapidly. When inhaled there is a large health hazard, but it is very unlikely that DU would exist in a form able to be inhaled in any amount liable to be harmful.
Four major types of ionizing radiation:
alpha radiation. Occurs when the neutron to proton ratio of an isotope is such that it is unstable. Alpha radiation originates from the nucleus and tends to move the nucleus to a more stable nuclide. Very harmful internally, but no hazard at all externally. Won’t penetrate the skin.
Beta radiation. Basically a high energy electron. Originates from the nucleus when a neutron sheds a negative charge and turns into a proton. Again, it usually happens when a nuclide is unstable because of the neutron to proton ratio. Not very harmful externally, but very harmful when the nuclide is gaseous and is ingested or inhaled. Radon is a beta emitter.
gamma radiation. Same type of electro-magnetic radiation as X-rays. Difference is that x-rays originate when an orbital electron decays to a lower energy orbit. Gamma rays originate from the nucleus. Highly penetrating radiation just as harmful external as internal.
Neutron radiation. Highly penetrating because it has no charge. Causes biological damage do to secondary ionization from collision with a tissue nucleus. Very rare radiation threat outside of nuclear weapons and reactors. Probably the most common source would be from tritium. Again, unstable because of the neutron proton ratio.
it’s not scattered pieces – it is the fine dust post-vaporization.
why did Boeing stop using the stuff in the ’80’s?
Posted by: :. | November 19, 2007 at 10:30 PM
Political feedback.
The same reason DDT was stopped for spraying for malaria carrying mosquitoes. It was bad science by a single scientist who had established no controls, but the enviro-nuts got a hold of it and convinced Politicians to stop its use.
The view of DDT today has been changed as controlled and peer reviewed scientific studies have been done and the results that the maverick scientist came up with have been disproved.
it’s not scattered pieces – it is the fine dust post-vaporization.
Posted by: Ben | November 19, 2007 at 10:33 PM
What’s the settling rate Ben? It has to be pretty fast, we’re talking high mass particulate.
“When inhaled there is a large health hazard, but it is very unlikely that DU would exist in a form able to be inhaled in any amount liable to be harmful.”
that is where we differ Hank. Use in battlefields, particulrly in populated areas, DOES cause such inhalation exposure.
Over the years I have used all four forms of radiation. Mostly gamma in a form of spectroscopy.
Not all that fast kansas – it is often sub-five-micron which, although dense, is so small that it blows.
Actually Ben,
There is no need to back mix bomb grade uranium to use it in nuclear reactors. 95% enriched U235 works quite well in nuclear reactors!
There is enough bomb grade uranium in the US to supply our electrical needs for 200 years. Thermal pressurized water moderated nuclear reactors are inherently safe. No reason not to cash in on our uranium surplus. Well, no rational reason anyway.
I believe also the speaker said the heavy metal poisoning was a primary concern.
Over the years I have used all four forms of radiation. Mostly gamma in a form of spectroscopy.
Posted by: Ben | November 19, 2007 at 10:36 PM
You’re using some type of radiation now Ben, back away from that screen. :)
hank – agreed – but there are a couple of reasons to back-mix. One big one is to ‘ruin’ it for bomb-making. Remember, I am talking civilian reactors here.
I think I had seen projections for more than 200 years. We are in agreement “No reason not to cash in on our uranium surplus. Well, no rational reason anyway.”
Ben,
And all the studies done on DU munitions after they have vaporized show that in after a month the surrounding areas have statistically negligable amounts of DU, no more than you would find on average anyhow.
When DU munitions become vaporized, the people there are the ones that are going to die from the impact to begin with.
What’s the settling rate in a desert environment? I doubt that it stays in one place very long.
and hank – also want to attempt to idiot-proof it. This isn’t as controlled as, for example, the pile in a nuke sub.
Nathan – not all of the residents in the vicinity are marked for death by the impact. But they do easily become ‘collateral damage’
When DU munitions become vaporized, the people there are the ones that are going to die from the impact to begin with.
Posted by: Nathan | November 19, 2007 at 10:40 PM
Ya Nathan, if some one gets clubbed over the head with a depleted uranium “bat” I think the alpha particles are the least of their worries. :D
Ben,
The immediate vaporization of DU rounds is the least of their problems.
Kind of like arguing that bomb fragments kill people around them.
Duh.
Either way, I have yet to see any studies which show that DU munitions when vaporized pose any threat to those beyond the scope of the ones who were just killed from the impact.
Nathan, you argue this thing as if it were conservative VS liberal; or left VS right; or even worse, some kind of religious argument. That is what makes it all fairly spurious to me.
Enjoyed the discussion fellows.
Off to bed for me.
I think we have a “draw” here due to countering situations.
There are truths are both sides.
Unfortunately though and don’t bash me for saying this, environmental activism sometimes precludes scientific data.
Okay, commence throttling my “sit-in” dummy while I’m gone. :D
I’ll just go with the conclusions of many years training and experience dealing with hazardous materials. I guess we were just taught to be cautious in such matters; in fact my ethical oath required that.
to bed here too – and will note one area of agreement with hank – nuclear power. We need it.
Pay no attention to the fact that 11,000 Gulf War vets in the pink of health in 1991 are now DEAD or that 240,000 are seriously sick or that Iraqi babies are routinely monstrous.
Nothing to see here. Tons of radioactive heavy-metal incinerated and exploded all over the place . . . no connection.
Perfectly safe.
Ben,
All the studies I have seen show that the immediate vaporization of DU munitions pose no real continuing health threat.
Once it happens, it is over.
DU munitions provide us with some of the best in penetrating weapons munitions. They give us the best on the battlefield.
We have been using them for some time now and these arguments against them have been around just as long.
Don’t you think that in the past 20 years that if DU munitions were as bas as some people try to claim they are that we would be seeing some real science to show that?
Who’s going to pay for the research, Nathan?
The Defense department?
HAHAHAHA.
CapnAmerica,
Perhaps those deaths were caused by biological and chemical weapons in Iraq by Saddam?
Perhaps they were caused by WMD creation and destruction by Saddam?
I could list a dozen things which “could” be the cause.
The point is that you are not showing any real causal relationship.
CapnAmerica,
I believe there are plenty enough liberal left-wing conspiracy groups who could have funded the studies in the past 20 years.
You seemed to be able to dredge up a couple of people didn’t you?
Nathan’s observations sound just like what I read by the Heritage Foundation.Well enough for me.
Damn, I guess I was right! Unfortunately –
“Nathan, you argue this thing as if it were conservative VS liberal; or left VS right; or even worse, some kind of religious argument. That is what makes it all fairly spurious to me.” (:.)
Yeah,
I argue it with logic and reason like most of everything else I do here.
The similarities are astounding!
YEA, SURE, RIGHT!! AHEM/COUGH
http://www.editorandpublisher.com/eandp/news/article_display.jsp?vnu_content_id=1003674938
Prize winning photo-journalist held in prison without bail for two years for showing US war atrocities . . .
******
U.S. Will Finally Bring Charges Against AP Photographer in Iraq
Bilal Hussein
Published: November 19, 2007 4:30 PM ET
NEW YORK The U.S. military plans to seek a criminal case in an Iraqi court against an award-winning Associated Press photographer but is refusing to disclose what evidence or accusations would be presented.
An AP attorney on Monday strongly protested the decision, calling the U.S. military plans a “sham of due process.” The journalist, Bilal Hussein, has already been imprisoned without charges for more than 19 months.
A public affairs officer notified the AP on Sunday that the military intends to submit a written complaint against Hussein that would bring the case into the Iraqi justice system as early as Nov. 29. Under Iraqi codes, an investigative magistrate will decide whether there are grounds to try Hussein, 36, who was seized in the western Iraqi city of Ramadi on April 12, 2006.
Dave Tomlin, associate general counsel for the AP, said the defense for Hussein is being forced to work “totally in the dark.”
The military has not yet defined the specific charges against Hussein. Previously, the military has pointed to a range of suspicions that attempt to link him to insurgent activity.
The AP rejects all the allegations and contends it has been blocked by the military from mounting a wide-ranging defense for Hussein, who was part of the AP’s Pulitzer Prize-winning photo team in 2005.
Soon after Hussein was taken into custody, the AP appealed to the U.S. military to either release him or bring the case to trial—saying there was no evidence to support his detention. However, Tomlin said that the military is now attempting to build a case based on “stale” evidence and testimony that has been discredited. He also noted that the U.S. military investigators who initially handled the case have left the country.
The AP says various accusations have been floated unofficially against Hussein and then apparently been withdrawn with little explanation.
Tomlin said the AP has faced chronic difficulties in meeting Hussein at the Camp Cropper detention facility in Baghdad and its own intensive investigations of the case—conducted by a former federal prosecutor, Paul Gardephe—have found no support for allegations that he was anything other than a working journalist in a war zone.
“While we are hopeful that there could be some resolution to Bilal Hussein’s long detention, we have grave concerns that his rights under the law continue to be ignored and even abused,” said AP President and CEO Tom Curley.
“The steps the U.S. military is now taking continue to deny Bilal his right to due process and, in turn, may deny him a chance at a fair trial. The treatment of Bilal represents a miscarriage of the very justice and rule of law that the United States is claiming to help Iraq achieve. At this point, we believe the correct recourse is the immediate release of Bilal.”
Calls for his freedom have been backed by groups such as the Committee to Protect Journalists.
Tomlin said it remains unclear what accusations, evidence and possible witnesses will be presented by military prosecutors in Baghdad.
“They are telling us nothing … We are operating totally in the dark,” said Tomlin, who added that the military’s unfair handling of the case is “playing with a man’s future and maybe his life.”
Although it’s unclear what specific allegations may be presented against Hussein, convictions linked to aiding militants in Iraq could bring the death penalty, said Tomlin.
U.S. military officials in Iraq did not immediately respond to AP questions about what precise accusations are planned against Hussein.
Previously, the military has outlined a host of possible lines of investigation, including claims that Hussein offered to provide false identification to a sniper seeking to evade U.S.-led forces and that Hussein took photographs that were synchronized with insurgent blasts.
The AP inquiry found no support for either of those claims. The bulk of the photographs Hussein provided the AP were not about insurgent activity; he detailed both the aftermath of attacks and the daily lives of Iraqis in the war zone. There was no evidence that any images were coordinated with the insurgents or showed the instant of an attack.
Gardephe, now a New York-based attorney, said the AP has offered evidence to counter the allegations so far raised by the military. But, he noted, that it’s possible the military could introduce new charges at the hearing that could include classified material.
“This makes it impossible to put together a defense,” said Gardephe, who is leading the defense team and plans to arrive in Baghdad next week. “At the moment, it looks like we can do little more than show up … and try to put together a defense during the proceedings.”
One option, he said, is to contend that the Pentagon’s handling of Hussein violated Iraqi legal tenets brought in by Washington after the fall of Saddam Hussein in 2003. Among the possible challenges: AP claims that Hussein was interrogated at Camp Cropper this year without legal counsel.
Hussein is one of the highest-profile Iraqi journalists in U.S. custody.
In April 2006—just days before Hussein was detained—an Iraqi cameraman working for CBS News was acquitted of insurgent activity. Abdul Ameer Younis Hussein was held for about a year after being detained while filming the aftermath of a bombing in the northern city of Mosul.
Tomlin, however, said that freedom for Bilal Hussein, who is not related to the cameraman working for CBS, isn’t guaranteed even if the judge rejects the eventual U.S. charges. The military can indefinitely hold suspects considered security risks in Iraq.
“Even if he comes out the other side with an acquittal—as we certainly hope and trust that he will—there is not guarantee that he won’t go right back into detention as a security risk.”
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This illegal and immoral detention brought to you courtesy of the same administration who won’t allow military coffins to be photographed.
Thats our great freedom at work there, CapN…. Lets hope they keep that kind of freedom in Iraq!
They hold a photographer, but they let Blackwater run free? Something definitely wrong with that picture!
YEA, SURE, RIGHT!! AHEM/COUGH
Posted by: :. | November 19, 2007 at 11:37 PM
Chas why do you hide behind false names and symbols? One needs only to read the post to see it’s you.
I have no idea where Chas. is. So I guess that makes you WRONG!