Catholics United, a pro-life faith group based in Washington, D.C., is targeting Rep. Todd Tiahrt, R-Goddard, and 12 other pro-life lawmakers who recently voted against an SCHIP bill that would extend health coverage to millions of uninsured children. The group is airing radio ads this week (listen to it here) on Christian radio stations in Wichita that criticize Tiahrt for upholding President Bush’s veto.
“We believe that a culture of life requires supporting women and children,†James Salt, organizing director of Catholics United, told The Eagle editorial board. He called it “absurd†and “inconsistent†for Tiahrt, given his pro-life and pro-family views, to oppose SCHIP.
Tiahrt has argued that he supports SCHIP but wants it more focused on low-income children. Congress is still working on a compromise SCHIP bill — and the group hopes Tiahrt’s constituents will pressure him to back it.
Posted by Randy Scholfield
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205 Comments
For the first time in the history of America. The life expectancy of today’s children is less than that of their parents. This is catastrophic. And our infant mortality is equal to that of a third world country. Current U.S. adult life expectancy is down from #1 to #42. And dropping fast. These facts are what is known as EXTINCTION! indicators. These are the early signs of the final phase of the EXTINCTION of the American people.
You have to take the profit motive out of health care delivery. The profit motive does not work with health care. Or any other essential public service like police, and fire. The sooner everyone faces this truth. The sooner you will be able to adopt a real solution to the problem. The days of paying for health care out of pocket are at an end. Just like the mob days of paying for protection out of pocket came to an end.
HR 676 is the way to go. Single payer Universal National Health Care For All. Medicare for all. Accept no substitutes. The sooner you face this. The sooner you begin to heal the Cancer of private for profit medicine that is destroying this entire society. Other developed countries realized this years ago. It’s a no-brainer now. See sickocure.org
Money, greed, and the profit motive has just decimated health care in America. And killed, and injured millions needlessly. Just for profit. But that is what large amounts of money, greed, and a lust for power always does. No one is immune from this corrupting power. The smart ones know this. And avoid letting them-self be put in compromising positions. But that is easier said. Than done. And very few succeed.
Most in the US go into medicine primarily to become wealthy. That is who the medical schools mostly choose. Most of the medical schools faculty are in bed with the drug companies, and others. And like the story of Dr. Faustus. They end up selling their souls. One compromise at a time. Until Lucifer owns them.
In medicine. Compromised care means. Injury, disability, and death. It’s sad really. But HR 676 can fix this disgrace. Like it has in other developed countries. The only question is. How many more millions will be hurt, injured, and killed. And how many more of your children will die before their time. Before we fix this disgrace of private for profit health care in America.
I realize there will be a few people that have what they believe is good health care coverage. Who will want to opt out of a single payer system like HR 676. But let me remind you we rank # 37 in quality of health care for all. Down from #1. Never the less. A few opting out is not a problem. As long as all other Americans are automatically covered at birth through life. Unless they choose to opt out of HR 676. The government takes out 1.4% from your paycheck now for Medicare. All they have to do is substitute for HR 676 what they now take out of your paychecks for private health insurance. Remember, we already spend more on health care than any other country in the world. Right Now. We are being ripped off. And raped.
The SCHIP program is a desperately needed program for Americas children. But with the impending EXTINCTION of Americas children. And their current catastrophic health care condition. SCHIP needs to be extended to cover all of Americas children, immediately. Parents should have no hesitations, or financial worries about seeking medical care for their children. Whenever they have any concerns about their children’s health. Especially in the richest country in the world. I would submit that any President, or politician that fails to do this for the children. Betrays their most solemn oath to protect the American people. Especially when you consider that all other developed countries have done this. And that we are the richest country in the world.
So get on it America. Get it done. You have been doing great over the past several months. Keep it up. And step it up. You have to force it, and take it. It’s the right fight, and the right thing to do. Now is the time… Take no prisoners.
The Congressman’s argument is like what is the definition of “Broke” as to whom is a “poor child“.If two men meet on the street. One is use to having ten thousand dollars in his pocket and the other is use to having one hundred dollars in his pocket. But the one use to ten thousand may only have one thousand and the man use to one hundred now has only ten dollars. Both men will tell the other they are broke, but they put their own definition on the term. Likewise in some part of the country anyone making less then one hundred thousand a year is living in near poverty. While here in Kansas someone making over eighty thousand would be considered well off. But of course Congressman tiahrt is smart enough to take that into account. So his vote is nothing more the partisan politics….
Actually, what Tiahrt is saying makes sense. SCHIPs was always intended for low income people that were not in the Medicaid category.
As always, the charts for eligibility are at Kansas Health Wave Website. If you are curious to see if you might be eligible, then go check it out.
The Catholic Association should ask themselves this question. If your church has the choice with buying leather bound songbooks or song books made from recycled cloth, with the leather bound song books costing three times as much, which would they do?
This is the approach that Tiahrt is taking. Congressman Tiahrt wants to insure that all low income families get their needs taken care of, by limiting the categories of what is covered and excluding those who might abuse the system through loopholes and other means.
It’s called smart budgeting, it’s not being cruel to any children.
The spin masters on the subject have been arm flailing way too long on the matter.
Throwing money at a problem doesn’t always solve the problem. Proper administration and handling of qualified individuals will insure that all get a fair chance to enroll.
If by the next renewal time SCHIPs needs tweaking to cover all who need covering as low income, then do it. Even better, put an emergency provision in the SCHIPs bill to give an annual inspection of statistics and advice from State SCHIP adminstrators if the program is not meeting enrollment demand.
Let’s not use dollars bill for kleenix just because we can. Let’s try some common sense.
Politics truly does make strange bed fellows.
I suggest that James Salt re-read his compendium on Catholic Teacing on Social doctrime and review the concept of subsidiarity which states that creative solutions to chronic social problems should be determined at the lowest possible level. This means that the parishioners of the large Catholic & Protestant churchs should be trying to solve the problem rather than expecting a hand out from the US Congress. If the religious leaders in Wichita can not convince their own parishioners or wealthy libertarian families like the Garveys & the Kochs to pony up to solve the problem of the insured, then government funding should come first from the county and then from the state. True non-profits that depend on grassroots charity are always the most efficient. Non-profits that depend on grants or government funding are always the most wasteful.
The problem with groups like Catholics United is that they are very big on charity as long as it comes out of some one else’s pocket. They turn a blind eye to serious human rights violations. Catholics United need to wake up and realize that big nanny government poses a bigger threat to families and children than chronic health care problems due to the uninsured.
Kansans should first explore solutions that are based on the transparency & accountability associated with free markets, private philantrophy and tort reform rather than quick fixes based on pork barrel federal spending that rewards cronyism, corruption and ineffiency.
I invite James Salt to call me at 316 293-6079 so I can explain to him the real “connectors” in the Kansas healthcare & non-porfits systems such as Out of control Federal foster care reimubursements that causes thousands of kids to be taken away from their families and put in psychiatric foster care agencies like Yuthville which receive over $6,000 per month per child.
It’s not hard to understand why these evils are every day occurences in Wichita despite the large number of Catholic pro-life GOP judges and prominent Catholic attorneys that work in juvenile law or as bar association officials. To understand the cause of the problem, one just needs to follow the money.
The church affiliated social service agencies have sold their souls, their ability to talk about evil human rights abuses in Wichita and their moral authoirty to demand justice and dignity. These church related social service organizations have become too dependent on grants from the federal and state government, the United Way and the Kansas Health Foundation. Instead of living with in it’s budget, it’s more important for the agencies to create empires to be able to employ all of the do-gooders with advanced degrees who in turn quickly become afraid to speak the truth for fear of losing their jobs.
To allow herself more time to network with victims of human rights violations in Wichita, I suggest that Janet Pape resign her position as the Chairman of the Board of Directors for Cathloic Charities USA and distance herself from United Way CEO, Pat Hanrahan and his wife, Renee who recently resigned as Director of Marketing for Prairie View. It’s hard to believe that they individuals do not talk about the corruption problems are their charity fund raising galas.
However history tends to repeat itself. The media was able to ignore the horrible sexual attrocities of Dr. Arlan Kaufman who also was an adjunct professor of social work that occurred in Newton over 15 years.
http://www.thekansan.com/stories/100705/localnews_1008050026.shtml
http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2006-01-24-enslavedsentence_x.htm
Newton is a small town in which the Prairee View Pshchiatric Hospital is one of the largest employers. I’m sure that its a coincidence that Renee Hanrahan’s predecessor as Marketing Director, was Sue Ice who also is on the Board of Healing Arts to discipline doctors & psychiatrists. Sue’s husband, Ted Ice is a retiredjduge who is on the Commission n Judicial Qualifications which disciplines judges for unethical activity. Sue & Ted’s daughter, Laura Ice was the president f the Wichtia Bar Association last year and has been an officiual with the Kansas Bar Associaiton for several years.
I get very upset about the nepotism, greed and arrogance of the elite class of attorneys, jduges and metnal healthprovders in Wichita because a friend of mine who is a psychologist at Prairie View told me that one of his patients was abused when he was a resident at one of the Kaufman group homes. My friend told me that he reported the Kaufman abuse allegation to the Behavioral Science Board 3 years before the scandal was uncovered by Medicaid auditors.
We shouldn’t expect the Behavoral Science Board to be a very tough watch dog about SRS violations considering that Wichita area SRS director, Jean Hogan, is the Vice Chair and Bob Eades who is employed at Doug Morphis’s Counseling & Mediation Center is also a board member. In 2004 BSB investigator, Roger Scurlock, wrote me an e-mail stating that regulations prevented him from investigating allegations of dishonesty by court appointed case managers such as Kim Kadel & Jeanne Erickson who are colleagues of Eades at the Couneling & Mediation cener (which is a recipient of a United Way grant). As the sayng goes, just follow the money trail.
If Janet Pape or James Salt want to fully practice the concepts of of subsidiarity and solidiarity, I’d be glad to put them in touch with 10 victims of the unbelievably tragic human rights abuses by dishonest judges, attorneys & SRS agency employees in Wichita.
Afterwards maybe James Salt could pass the word back to the editors at the Wichita Eagle which refuses to follwo any leads tht I give them. More importantly James could contact the journalism faculty at Wichita State University to ask why the corruption stories have not been covered.
James should first contact, Randy Brown,
http://curb.kcc.state.ks.us/bio_brown.htm
(former Eagle editorial board writer and husband of current Kansas Bar Association President, Linda Ward, who is law partner with Richard Hite- Chairman of the Commission on Judicial Nominations & Dick Honeyman, Bonnie Bing’s husband.)
Note – it’s so typical of the Eastborough wanabee elitist mentality in Kansas that Brown was appointed to be on the Citizens Utility Rate Board . Governor Sebelius appoints Brown to a commission in an industry where he has no professional expertise as a poltical reward for covering up the judicial abuses and the fact that Sebelius is a terrible administrator who is pwoerless to control the SRS.
I guess I shouldn’t expect too much from Governor Sebelius. Before becoming Insurance Commissioner, her only full time job was to serve as a lobbyist for the Kansas Bar Assoiciaton. Her husband is a federal magistrate so we shouldn’t expect Sebellus to upset her previus employer,the KBA, which the most powerful lobby in Topeka.
I also hope that James Salt will contact WSU journalism Professor Debra Balalrd-Reisch who is the Kansas Health Foundation Distinguished Chair in Strategic Communication and is the expert on ethics for journalists. Per her bio:
http://webs.wichita.edu/?u=elliott&p=/ProfileBallard/
In the last 5 years, Dr. Ballard-Reisch has received over $400,000 in grants and contracts to conduct grounded strategic health communication research in the areas of bioterrorism risk communication and public health preparedness, healthy behavior change, and effective communication strategies with utility consumers. Dr. Ballard-Reisch co-edited a volume on Communication and Sex Role Socialization, as well as special issues of the Journal of Family Communication (on family research methodology) and Women and Language (on globalization and feminism)………………
In summing up insights from her scholarship, Dr. Ballard-Reisch concludes “My work over the last decade has focused on going to communities and talking to people about the best ways to get messages to them, who they want to hear from, what they want the messages to look and sound like, what they are interested in knowing. I have learned that in a crisis, one size does not fit all and to meet the needs of diverse populations within communities, different strategies are required to get messages across in an effective and timely manner”.
In my opinion Naoimi Wolfe & Judge Napoliatono are correct to state that the US has already become a Fascist society where a powerful elite controls the media. Bill O’Reilly is correct to state that the Wichita Eagle is the worst newspaper in the US.
Personally I just want to know who made Marni Vliet POPE when she became CEO Kansas Health Foundation to be paid an annual salary of $340,000? When the proceeds from the sale of Wesley Hospital wre used to set up the Kansas Health Foundation in the 1990’s, did any one expect that the Kansas Health Foundation would fund communication professors to tell us what to think or to fund a $8,000,000 leadership training programs to inculcate our young leaders in business, government and professions about the vision of the Kansas Health Foundation. Maybe the Christina zealots are so crazy when they talk about a culture war and the biased press.
I hope that the new Eagle publisher, Pam Siddal, will find the information on this post helpful.
Just for laughs (and to furher shame or enoucrage Eagle reporter – Ron Sylvester) I included a link to a press release about Brown’s Kansas Sunshine Coalition for Open Government
http://webs.wichita.edu/dt/insidewsu/show/article.asp?263
The Kansas Sunshine Coalition for Open Government will meet in 128 Jabara for two panel discussions on Wednesday Oct. 22. Randy Brown, president of the Sunshine Coalition and Elliott School faculty fellow, will moderate “Open Government: Smoothing Out the Bumps” from 2-3:15 p.m. Other scheduled participants include Bill Miskell, public information officer for the Kansas Department of Corrections; Ray Trail, retired chief financial officer for the city of Wichita; Bill Buchanan, Sedgwick County manager; Ron Sylvester, Wichita Eagle reporter; and Paul Aker, reporter for KAKE-TV.
Bill McKeankiakahahaha@yahoo.com316 293-6079
Tiahrt is like most phoney politicians. He lies about his vote on SCHIP. He votes the Bush republican way, period. His excuse? He wants a ‘better’ bill/. His he done one thing to get a ‘better’ bill? No. All of the religious right republicans will vote the party line no matter who gets hurt. Turdheart ifs not about “represenative” government..he’s Bush’s boy.
“The problem with groups like Catholics United is that they are very big on charity as long as it comes out of some one else’s pocket.”Posted by b mc.
Comments like that are so easy to make, and so difficult to back up. Catholics, if one would take the time to learn, are some of the most giving in this country. They have their beliefs, which many disagree with and so think it’s okay to denigrate the religion.
But the point of this blog is: Tiahrt is scared someone undeserving might get medical attention. So therefore, close the program.
Lets see: Welfare is constantly being abused. Let’s close that program. Medicare is abused. Let’s close that one as well. Shoot, social security is abused. Let’s close that one too. Farm subsidies are abused. Let’s close that.
Every government program is abused in some way, closing them because of it is pretty short-sided, don’t you think? Voting down this program because it MIGHT be abused is just as stupid.
SOS TO NEW PUBLISHER, PAM SIDDALL.
I REST MY CASE. RANDY SCHOFIELD IS AN IDIOT & THE WICHITA EAGLE IS THE WORST NEWSPAPER IN THE UNITED STATES.
IT WAS MISLEADING FOR SCHOFIELD TO CREATE A NEWSWORTHY EVENT BY THE EAGLE EDITORIAL STAFF INTERVIEWING SALT AND PORTRAYING JAMES SALT AS A SPOKESMAN FOR THE CATHOLIC CHURCH THAT SHOULD GET THE ATTENTION OF CONGRESSMAN TODD TIAHRT.
DOES EVERY THING HAVE TO BE ABOUT PROMOTING THE SEBELIUS AGENDA?
AND THE HYPOCRITICAL EAGLE EDITORIAL BOARD HAS THE AUDACITY TO CRITICIZE CHRISTIAN MINISTERS FOR TRYING TO INFLUENCE THE POLTICAL AGENDA.
BILL MCKEAN KIAKAHAHAHA@YAHOO.COM
Per the bio on James Salt from the website for TAKEBACK AMERICA:
http://tba2007.confabb.com/users/profile/jsalt
Bio: James Salt is a co-founder and board member of Catholics United, an emerging organization that works to build and empower a national movement of grassroots activists dedicated to raising up the Catholic social tradition in our national dialog on faith and public life. Salt has extensive experience working with national progressive Catholic peace and justice organizations as well as with political campaigns involving Catholic strategy. He has worked for Pax Christi USA, including a leadership position with Pax Christi’s Young Adult Forum, NETWORK: A National Catholic Social Justice Lobby, and was part of the launch team of Catholics in Alliance for the Common Good. He currently works with Maryland Citizens Against State Executions. His political work has involved overseeing the Kansas Democratic Party’s faith outreach efforts, including messaging work for Governor Kathleen Sebelius and development of faith-based messaging resources. Salt lives in Washington, D.C.
Now the next time this group Catholics United speaks about abortion, I will give them a hearing. They show signs of being honestly pro life in this instance.A society that does not care for all of its citizens is a society that cannot in the long term survive.
Tiahrt and his ilk would rather a million people suffer, for fear a 1000 might get a free ride.
Who pays for his and his families health insurance — certainly not him …..
… and he’s not a Kansan —-
Catholics have generally been pretty consistent on the life issue – not just anti-abortion but supporting life alternatives – adoption services, health care, Lord’s Diner, homeless shelters (especially for families), battered women shelters etc etc etc. That is why, even though I am not Catholic, I support Catholic Charities.
Oh, brother.
A new wing-nut ranter. Just what we need around here.
Hey, Bill?
They’ve got meds now for those voices you hear in your head.
Has anyone ever thought that maybe some of these newborns are meant to die?
You GODies believe that God is so smart and so wise.
Why cant you possibly grasp that, yes, maybe the babies of crack whores are better off in heaven than alive?
Its time to STOP putting so much value on life! I hate to break it to you, I have no qualms about letting dump people die, I have no problem letting people have abortions who cant afford to have kids because than there would be LESS people programs like SCHIP!
It is false and misleading argument. What Mr. Salt is saying is that, because Mr. Tiahrt does not support a specific LEVEL OF FUNDING INCREASE in the SCHIP program, that he is taking a position that is not pro-life or pro-family. Absurd!
Now remember that SCHIP exists and provides coverage for millions of uninsured children up to a certain family income level. It was a program passed by the Republican Congress in 1997. The only dispute is basically over the level of family income to which the government (you and me) is paying for coverage, in place of the parents. The program is a popular one and supported by both parties. A possible alternative is to keep the current levels and offer tax breaks for those above the current levels.
Mr. Salt could, and I suspect eventually will, use the same argument to advocate for nationalized health care.
Yes, as George Carlin said about ProLifers, “If you’re preborn, you’re sacred; if you’re preschool, you’re screwed”.
Ick. Tiahrt’s big fleshy head and DC helmet hair is a bit much to take before 9 AM.
Just becasue you put Catholic in your name does not mean you are practicing the doctrine.
Welcome to the WEBLOG Mr McKean! (I don’t think you’re new though, at least your name is familiar to me)
Unfortunately, in the wonderful world of the Wichita Eagle there is no such thing as the ‘Religious Left’. They only have two religious classifications: ‘Religion’ and ‘Religious Right’.
‘Religion’ is a general topic that allows the nitwits on the left to bash Christianity.
‘Religious Right’ is the topic used to bash conservative Christians specifically.
In the biased left of center world view of the Eagle Editors there is no such thing as the ‘Religious Left’.
An organization like Catholics United is a perfect example of a religious left wing activist organiztion. As long as they support the liberal agenda and democras they will never be taken to task for mixing religion and politics.
This country is going broke. Tiahrt was correct in voting against more spending.
I’ve seen Mr. McKean post here before, he’s not new to this blog.
Very insightful post Mr. McKean and well structured replies. It sheds new light on the Editorial topic of the day.
Thanks!
Isn’t it ironic the lefties that use “for the children” as their crutch have no problem aborting millions of unborn babies (over the years), of which hundreds of thousands are third trimester babies.
How very little of Christ there is in so many Christians. Many in present company included. No names need posted. They know who they are as much as everyone else does.
And what I just posted smarted for them in places they’d rather others not look. Deep in the crannies of their shriveled little dead hearts.
They’ll start announcing themselves in 3, 2, 1…
jacksmith
Your figures are wrong.
Mortality tables have been adjusted upwards, consistently, for the last several generations.
We can now ignore ALL of your diatribe, as you obviously don’t know what you are talking about.
I am Catholic.
So is Ted Kennedy.
Other than that, we do not have much in common.
I do NOT want Tiahrt to back down on this.
There is nothing “Christian” about forcing all of us to pay the bills of people who can, and should, be paying for their own kids!
Nine minutes or so.
Told ya.
The National Right to Life has proposed several pro-life health care reforms.
http://www.nrlc.org/HCR/index.html
That organization is NOT pushing the SCHIP bill which was vetoed by President Bush.
This Catholic group is a bunch of socialists.
They can safely be ignored.
JR,
Do you even know the teachings of Christ let alone follow them?
Yet you presume to know and judge the hearts of many Christians as not having Christ in them?
Mortality tables are complicated.
However, here is someone making the claim that lower mortality has, pretty much, already been priced into “term” products, and that NEW “cash value” products will actually be harmed by a change to lower mortality rate adjustments.
Technical, but it makes my point:
We are ALL living longer:
http://www.peterkatt.com/articles/JFP_mar2006.html
Nathan
You are right on the money with that last quote.
If I told JR how to be a “good socialist” I do not think he would pay attention to my advice.
Likewise, JR has every right to spout his ignorant advice.
However, I know far more about socialism, communism, capitalism and politics than JR knows about Christianity or Catholic teaching.
This “Catholic” group does not follow the rule of “Subsidiarity” — which is BASIC Catholic teaching.
It is immoral for any higher authority to usurp the power of a lesser authority, unless absolutely necessary.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Subsidiarity
This “Catholic” group pretty much is a front for the Democrat Party.
Here is their anti-Iraq war page:
http://www.catholics-united.org/?q=node/110
As for “prolife” work, this group claims that virtually EVERY welfare hand out will reduce abortions.
They are a liberal front group.
http://www.catholics-united.org/?q=node/110
Once again.
JR seems to be able to turn any topic into character assassination instead of discussion about the topic.
Hey boy,
Where’s my 1911?
Pa
“”Korzen speaks for Catholics like Barry Lynn speaks for Christians or Gloria Steinem speaks for women – or I speak for Muslims.”
http://www.newsmax.com/insidecover/coulter_jewish_reply/2007/10/17/41664.html
Korzen is the radical liberal head of this “Catholic” liberal group.
The entire intent of this organization is to make some kind of “moral equivalency” between abortion and welfare programs and anti war liberalism.
http://www.newsmax.com/insidecover/coulter_jewish_reply/2007/10/17/41664.html
HorstLess than 1% of Catholic Priests have ever been proven to be involved in child molestation.
The Church did a very poor job of responding to the problem, granted.
But do not condemn the entire Church for the actions of a few.
And furthermore —
This left wing group is run by people who CLAIM to be Catholic.
The group is NOT officially connected to Catholic authority in any way.
Why can’t the politicians work on making health care affordable and accesssible to everyone? That way, we won’t need a specific program for low income people.
I just want basic health care to be a given and not a luxury. Every employer should offer health care insurance. If the employers need help to offer, then a federal program could be established for that reason. But anyone that is working and trying to do what is right, then they should be able to buy their own health insurance.
I would rather see everyone working and providing for their own insurance (and their family’s) rather than some SCHIP programa that can be used fraudently. I’m tired of seeing people quit their jobs and live off the government because if they went to work, then they would lose their health card for the kids, would lose the free meals at school, would lose their WIC for their babies and toddlers.
Let’s start working towards encouraging people to work rather than to penalize them if they do seek work. We taxpayers are getting tired of seeing people get everything and then the insurance companies making record profits.
This left wing group is run by people who CLAIM to be Catholic.
The group is NOT officially connected to Catholic authority in any way.
Posted by: Econ101
Why must you always divide people into left and right wings? Why do you denounce this group? If they say they are CAtholic, then they are CAtholic. Do people denounce you when you tell them whatever religion you are? And how dare you to suppose they are not true Catholics. Only God knows their hearts – and last time I checked, you are not God.
All I can say is, thank goodness Horst is on their side.
Embrace your fellow traveller, Econ, Ksgrm, Nathan, Max.
CapnAmerica,
When was the last time you have seen any of us embrace Horst?
I ignore his posts just like I do Eds.
It’s good to know some pro-lifers are calling Tiahrt on his lies. Tiahrt throws out “pro-life” as if that automatically should give him some cred about caring about people. Tiahrt is about as pro-life as Paul Hill and Operation Rescue.
But it’s all in line with Tiahrt. He has consistently lied about SCHIP. His lies include that the bill would cover illegal immigrants (it never has), that millions of new smokers would be needed to cover the extra $7 billion a year (not true), and that he actually cares about reducing the number of smokers (nah, truth is he gets a lot of money from the tobacco lobbyists).
These posts make me wonder, HWJB?
How would Jesus Blog?
Would Christ contend that activists who are concerned about peace and social justice are nothing but evil liberals. Makes ya wonder…
Jesus said, “Blessed are the peacemakers” Republicans say that those who want peace are anti-american traitors. I guess that’s why the Republicans are obsessed with the Old Testament, everything after killing gays gets kinda boring for them.
Jesus also said:
“Jesus said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through Me.”
Don’t see you liberals jumping in line on that one.
Nathan, what does that have to do with issues of war and health care? Never mind, you believe the planet is 6,000 years old so your opinion matters little.
Doug,
What did your quote have to do with issues of war and health care?
Nevermind, you don’t actually believe what Jesus said, you only cherry pick things to try to use against people in a debate.
indy
Politics requires polerization.
Politics is ABOUT policy and polerization.
In “Roberts Rules of Order” when you call for “Division” you are calling for a vote.
Grow up.
If you can’t handle division, you should find a lawn and garden blog.
Yes, we should treat each other with respect and concentrate on issues, but pointing out the political leanings of advocacy groups is part of the game. This is how it is done.
This group is a left wing group. They speak for themselves. They have no moral authority whatsoever.
polarization, lolHard to type and watch the market ticker at the same time.
CapnYou have JR, who wants to shoot illegals as they cross the border, and you have Ed, who wants the state of Israel to move to Europe.Do you claim them?
Horst is not “one of mine”.
Sorry Nathan, somehow I thought this thread was about Tiahrt and how much of a pro-life Christian he is. Pardon me if you can’t stay on the subject. Perhaps you could have but your inability to accept reality (like the Earth is more than 6,000 years old) is evidence that you should go back to playing in your sandbox.
Doug,
Each of my posts has been in response to yours.
So if you think I am off topic, you need look no further than yourself as to the reason why.
DougNathan is making the point that Atheists and agnostics have no business telling Christians what we should believe.
I agree with Nathan on that one.
I would go one further: This “Catholic” group is a complete fraud, clearly invented to help ease the guilt of liberal church goers.
This group is NOT an active part of the pro-life movement.
They are frauds.
Tiahrt is pro-life and pro-family? Those may be nice catch words, but Tiahrt is neither. He and his staff and the Fundie fanatics spend a lot of time and energy trying to convince the public while reminding themselves that Tiahrt is pro-life and pro-family. His lack of support/leadership/votes for funding for public education and early childhood programs is disgusting and irresponsible. He is a mouth piece for the Fundie movement and a yes man for the far-right wing of the republican Party.
If Todd Tiahrt was truly pro-life and pro-family he would practice what he preaches, for starters he would support SCHIP, pre-k programs, pre-natal healthcare programs, adequate funding for Kansas schools, adequate funding for medical and rehabilitative care for injured and disabled US Military Veterans…and well, this is a wish list…but this list would be a great start.
Todd, you may be many things, but Pro-life and Pro-family are not terms that can be responsibly used to describe you. Go back to Goddard. Volunteer at your local elementary school. Volunteer at the Dole Veteran’s Center in Wichita. Spend some time volunteering in the nursery at your church in Valley Center. You are so disconnected from what you want to be that getting back to your roots might be good for you, and it could better benefit the people of the 4th District in Kansas. Right now you are really doing us a disservice and you are wasting a lot of taxpayer time, money and resources. Be what you want to be – I’ll support you.
Hey Steven,
There are several points being made by us right-wingers that you on the left seem to be missing.
We didn’t say or imply that they are not good Catholics, merely that they are not offically connected to the Catholic Church in any way. They have a liberal agenda not embraced by all Catholics and to pretend they speak for the Catholic Church is a little disengenuos.
We didn’t call them ‘evil liberals’. We merely pointed out that they were liberal, very liberal in fact. The liberal viewpoint is a valid viewpoint and it can be argued on its merits. We are merely pointing out that they have a strong liberal bias.
Catholics United is very partisan in their politics. They never attack a democrat. I’m personally amazed by the hypocrasy of the left when it comes to liberal religious groups participating in the political process.
The Sojourners, Catholics United, The Christian Science Monitor and other extreme liberal religious groups never get called on their idiology. They are never referred to in the MSM as ‘Religious Left’. I have no problem with their involvement in politics. I have a problem with people in the MSM like Randy Scholfield refusing to even acknowledge their existence.
The never ending stream ao biased ‘Religious Right’ topics that regularly appear in the WEBLOG could be matched one for noe with similar topics on the involvement of the religious left in politics.
I you want to know what Jesus thinks, just ask Nathan. He is sure that Jesus would not stop waterboarding/torture!
I think Nathan has an intercom to God/Jesus.
So Nathan, please enlighten me to the thread’s topic. Clearly you don’t think it’s about Tiahrt and his supposed pro-life stance that comes from his Christian beliefs. Perhaps it’s because you believe like Tiahrt. Say how much of a Christian you are and advocate the deaths of others through murder or neglect.
Of course this is probably above your head because you are still bewildered by the fact that the Earth is older than 6,000 years.
Wow…
JR, Let me add Doug to the list of posters who are far worse than Kansas has ever been.
Paul, if someone claims to be a Christian then it’s perfectly acceptable to point out their hypocrisies. Nathan believes in a Christian religion that advocates murder, torture and medical neglect, just like Tiahrt.
I guess those Catholics are out of line for thinking that they followed a Christ who was concerned about the medical care of others and preached peace. Perhaps you guys are just upset because the Atheists actually read the Bible you hypocrites claim to follow. As I suggested before Paul, you really ought to get educated on a subject before trying to comment on it (but then you wouldn’t be a neo-liberal if you were).
Doug,
You are liar.
I have never said anything which would indicate that I believe in murder, torture, or medical neglect.
The only thing you are pointing out here is your own stupidity.
Nathan, all of a sudden you are opposed to the Bush administration and the illegal occupation? Now there’s a shock. Oh wait, you probably don’t know what you are talking about again. Find an adult, perhaps he can explain it to you in smaller words.
DougYou are actually rather amusing at times, the way you pretend to talk down to everyone.
I am on solid ground here, and YOU are contradicting yourself.
You presume to criticize MY faith, but you will not defend my right to criticize the phoney theology of “Catholics United” — a liberal front group for far left Democrats.
Oh, BTW Nathan, you already said you advocated torture:
“We are saying water boarding isn’t torture, so lets use it.”
http://blogs.kansas.com/weblog/2007/11/mukasey-vote-wa.html#comments
Waterboarding is torture, that’s why people have been charged with crimes for using it. Ever read your military field manual regarding torture? Probably not, too many words.
Care to tell me another lie Nathan?
I see Paul, only you knows what Catholics really think. Or is it that you just don’t think Catholics are Christians. I guess that makes you a bigger bigot than me.
DougThe military, in the field, is not allowed to do many things.
The military, in the field, is presumed to be dealing with POW-status prisoners.
Geneva Conventions do not prevent the CIA from using the technique of “waterboarding” on NON-POW illegal combatants in order to protect the lives of Americans.
Econ101, I have a large stump in my back yard. It is much easier to converse with said “stump” than to converse with Doug. ;)
Not only that, the stump has a modicum of respect for those around it. :D
You don’t want to turn this thread into a platform to compare posters Nathan.
I note some of the newer posters ARE rather hard on you. Whether or not that is earned I cannot say as I have missed much.
Suffice it to say I have seen no one approach the level of disruption you reference.
And quit bringing me up.
As to the thread, perhaps it is because I am not a person of faith I have a judgemental perspective on it. Not being bogged down or tied to this phrase or tenet or that, I judge summarily merely from MY personal perspective of what I think Christians are supposed be and do.
THIS group impresses me. Most other proclaimed Christians not so much. They don’t walk the walk.
DougI AM Catholic, for Heaven’s sake.
Catholics used to be the ONLY Christians.
The Orthodox Church, the Coptic Church and the Protestant Churches all broke away from the original “Universal” Catholic Church.
The word “catholic” meands universal.
And Doug, I know this is hard for you to understand, but the followers of any faith have a duty to know what is and is not official doctrine.
This group, “Catholics United” does NOT stand on official church teaching, has no church authority, and is designed to allow liberal Catholics to vote for pro-abortion liberals with a little less guilt.
Oh gee, am I upsetting fascists. Then I’ll call it a good day. It must be simple for you Paul to just label any person you don’t like just to justify torture. I guess we can just label a whole population differently to justify crimes against them. Now I wonder which one of your buddies did that in the past.
BTW, the Canadian citizen we had tortured wasn’t captured on a battlefield, wasn’t from the Middle East, he was caught in an airport as he was traveling on vacation. It’s nice to see how fascists can justify rounding up innocent people and torturing them. It must make you feel so good about yourselves.
Paul, 90% of American Catholics don’t follow the Vatican’s teachings. I guess you are one of the pure ones. Not as pure as Mel Gibson thinks he is though. Nice to know you placed yourself as Grand Inquisitor. Is there no limit to your hate?
Oops I want to be clear.
i find this group that is taking Tiahrt to task impressive.
I didn’t wish to confuse that.
JRNope, this group does not “walk the walk” — this group is deceptive on purpose, and it takes the Democrat Party platforn and tries to sprinkle “Catholic” Holy Water on it.
It is not working.
This IS the “Religious Left” — and the religious left has far LESS Christian foundation, on which to stand, than the “Religious Right”.
JR,
You are the one who seems to think you are the self appointed blog monitor of trolls and bad behavior.
I am merely pointing out Doug to you.
When are you and your band of JM’s going to take him to task?
Being called a liar by Nathan is right up there with Ed saying he doesn’t hate jews.
Ah, the Grand Inquisitor has decreed that a person cannot be Catholic and Democratic at the same time.
The head of Catholics United has a theology degree but Paul outweighs him in theology matters because he spends his days on blogs proving to people how often wrong he is about everything.
All hail Grand Inquisitor Paul, for he’ll torture you if you don’t succumb to his official decrees.
Doug100% of the population is made up of sinners.100% of the population do not follow all of the teachings of any church or creed.
Christians just know that, if we do our best, we will be forgiven.
I’m not a sinner Paul. Don’t lump me in as follower of your religious myths.
DougTheology degree?
And if I told you that Robertson or Falwell had a theology degree, would you be impressed?
Of course not.
This guy is a leftist.
He has made not a single statement in favor of overturning Roe V. Wade, for instance.
If you can find such a statement, I will apologize to all of you, but I have been looking and can find NO prolife anti abortion statement, ever, from this guy.
I am angry with him for his dishonesty.
Doug, that statement alone, is a sin.
Sorry, I am not claiming to be a better person than you, simply more accurate in my understanding of faith.
This IS the “Religious Left” — and the religious left has far LESS Christian foundation, on which to stand, than the “Religious Right”.Posted by: Econ101 | November 13, 2007 at 02:32 PM
What a piece of crap!! Care to walk us through that logic Econ?
Sorry, I am not claiming to be a better person than you, simply more accurate in my understanding of faith.Posted by: Econ101 | November 13, 2007 at 02:40 PM
Maybe you meant to say “more accurate in my understanding of MY faith”???
I don’t see you as having much understanding of any faith other than your own twisted sense of self importance.
Paul, the Executive Director of Catholics United is a Catholic with a theology degree from a Jesuit university. If Robertson or the worm food guy have a degree in theology from a Catholic university I’ll be impressed.
Also, I’m still not a follower of your religion so I’m not a sinner. Only nutter Christians believe that nonsense.
Paul, since it’s your belief that the sole doctrine of Catholicism is a desire to overturn American Supreme Court decisions then you clearly know jack about the Catholic religion. You know the Catholic church has been around longer than America has. I don’t know if this is news to you, but Roe v. Wade was a decision on medical privacy. I guess everyday you still wake up stupid.
How about getting an education and I’ll come back in a few hours to see if you’ve learned something.
Subsidiarity, alone, shows that Socialism and Communism are sinful.
The prolife cause has not been supported by every Christian faith. — However, I challenge you to show me a Christian faith that claims the prolife view, itself, is sinful!
“No greater love has any man than he would would lay down his life for his brother” Jesus —
Hard to think of very many instances that would not involve the military or law enforcement or self defense — in which that would apply.
Jesus was not a socialist.
Jesus was not a pacifist.
Doug
Catholics United IGNORES the prolife issue, or it claims that welfare programs are “Prolife” —
This is a bogus, leftist group.
Lots of Catholics went to theology school.
When they argue with each other, Catholics have a duty to figure out who is right.
I did my duty.
“Catholics United” is wrong.
Econ — Methinks you are full of too many rosary beads, and unused Host… You are choking on your Faith… Catholics United is a very legitimate group among the Catholic Church in the US… I cant imagine where you are getting your information from, except for maybe Oper. Rescue… Better check your Diocesan office again!!
“Positive subsidiarity”, which is the ethical imperative for communal, institutional or governmental action to create the social conditions necessary to the full development of the individual, such as the right to work, decent housing, health care, etc., is another important aspect of the subsidiarity principle.
What do you say to that Econ?
When I read the Catholic Advance I see doctrine a lot closer to Catholics United than to Paul.
Jesus was not a socialist.
Jesus was not a pacifist.
Posted by: Econ101 | November 13, 2007 at 02:48 PM
==========================
Of course Jesus was not a socialist. The term had not yet been invented in his day.
As for Jesus being a pacifist, I think you are totally wrong on that one Econ!!
Jesus, who said, “If a man strikes you on one cheek, offer him your other one;” Jesus, who said,
“Father forgive them, for they know not what they do;” Jesus, who said, “Peace I leave you; my peace I give you; not as the world gives, do I give you peace;”
THIS Jesus is a Pacifist. I dont know which Jesus you refer to.
Ben — I wouldnt be surprised if Econ thinks Catholic Advance is a Leftist publication as well!!
The only Catholic Group I can think of being opposed to SCHIP might be the extreme Right Wing group headquartered out of Steubenville, OH… The rest I cannot see having anything but support for SCHIP!!
“I come not to bring peace, but to bring a sword” is one of the controversial statements reported of Jesus in the Bible. The saying has been understood in several ways, by Christians and non-Christians, to support several mutually-incompatible conclusions.
Jesus told a disciple to put his sword back in its sheeth.
Why would he have a sword in the first place, if it was always wrong to fight?
FolksCharity is NEVER given at the point of a gun.When the government raises taxes in order to provide benefits, that is not charity.Our obligation to help others is a personal obligation.
I wonder why any faith-based group, presumably in tune with morality, condones government forcably taking from one person to give to another.
No matter what the purpose; no matter how noble the cause, for this to be done by force is properly termed theft.
“The new bill (H.R. 3963) mirrors the version vetoed by Bush, but contains a number of changes made in an effort by Democratic leaders to attract broader support for the measure. The new bill clarifies that states would receive federal funding for children enrolled in the program only if their families have incomes of 300 percent of the poverty level or less, up to $51,510, for a family of three. The bill would phase out coverage of childless adults after one year, rather than two. The bill clarifies that states would not receive federal funding for payments made to non-citizens. The Social Security Administration would be required to verify name, Social Security number, and place of birth of enrollees and applicants.
Like the vetoed bill, the new bill would add $35 billion to the program over five years to insure more children whose parents do not qualify for Medicaid but cannot afford private insurance. Total funding for SCHIP would be $60 billion. Supporters of the legislation estimate it would allow 10 million children to participate in the program, up from the 6.6 million currently covered.
The bill would require states to provide mental health benefits equal to medical and surgical benefits provided under the program. While barring SCHIP coverage of parents and childless adults, pregnant women could still be covered. States would be given financial incentives to lower the rate of uninsured children by enrolling them in SCHIP or in Medicaid.”
http://health.cch.com/news/medicaid/102907a.asp
Back to the subject of this thread. The revised bill included those items listed above. Cutting out adults (who could qualify for medicaid anyhow), requiring verification from SS as to the eligibility of the applicant (this cuts out illegals). The number covered goes up to 10 M from 6.6 M not down. The dollars increase as well.
Looks like Tiahrt did his homework and deserves a pat on the back.
“THIS Jesus is a Pacifist. I dont know which Jesus you refer to.”
Certainly not completely. He cleared the temple of the merchants with a whip!
IF, ksgrm, he will now vote to override on bahalf of the revised bill.
You and I probably interpret THAT differently as well outlander.
“Put up thy sword into the sheath: the cup which my Father hath given me, shall I not drink it?”
Econ101,
What that verse means to me is that Jesus was saying to trust His word.
The “cup” which Jesus refers to was the destiny which must be fulfilled. That is, the arrest of Jesus, his “trial” and later execution by crucifixion.
Jesus was asking Peter to trust Him by having Peter to put the sword back into the sheath, so that the destiny of Jesus could be fulfilled.
It was an object lesson in faith and trust.
KansasAgreedHowever, Jesus did not tell Peter to get rid of his sword.Jesus did not tell Peter to NEVER use the sword.
It was like the military order to:”Stand down”.
You dont toss out your weapons, you simply do not attack.
“You dont toss out your weapons, you simply do not attack.”
So you don’t do what we did in Iraq.
Did St. Peter use his sword to fight off wolves and other wild animals?Did he use it to cut meat?
Why did St. Peter have a sword, if Jesus was a pacifist? (The FIRST POPE, St. Peter, who is burried under St. Peters Bascillica, in Rome)
BenWay out of context.
Jesus basically told St. Peter to “stand down” — Jesus did not tell Peter to get rid of his sword.
However,the prophetic vision:
“You shall beat your swords into ploughshares, and your spears into pruning hooks…”
Pretty much looks like a vision of NO weapons to me… eh??
ChasPeace and prospertiy are always great goals for any society.
That we pray for such does not mean that war is sinful.
Cowardice is sinful.
War? It depends.
Paul – you are the one taking it out of context in your attempt to claim He justified attacking. Especially after you said He did not do that.
Was not the invasion an attack?
Swords to ploughshares – my nuclear power scenario. Even just starting with what has already been decommissioned.
CapnAmerica,
When was the last time you have seen any of us embrace Horst?
I ignore his posts just like I do Eds.
Posted by: Nathan | November 13, 2007 at 12:25 PM
Yesterday Econ and Kansas were singing his praises Fascim and modern american conservatives are close cousins
Rev Jim (Jones) and the Marxist Koolaide drinkers love to smear by pushing people into the “conservative” camp who we do not agree with at all.
The Peoples Temple, Guyana “Rev” Jim Jones was a Marxist and a friend of Democrats Jimmy Carter and Jerry Brown.
“Those that live by the sword die by it” wonder what pacifist asshole said that tripe
“Blessed are the peacemakers, for they shall be called the children of God”
I have never said anything complementary of Horst.I think, actually, that many of his views sound like the views of JR, on the illegal immigration issue and the free trade issue.
Peace makers are often the just warriors who defeat evil by force of arms.
eCON as long as you want to think that leftwing/liberals are all marxist I will call out Cons like you as Fasicts.
Care to provide a little evidence there econ?
Or are you giving us the truth according to you…again, always?
The world according to Paul. Not a nice place. Truth is what HE makes it.
“Put up thy sword into the sheath: the cup which my Father hath given me, shall I not drink it?”
This was in relation to the prayer Jesus had prayed earlier to God.
“‘Abba, Father,’ he said, ‘everything is possible for you. Take this cup from me. Yet not what I will, but what you will.’ Mark 14:35,36″
Had nothing to do with war or not war. Peter had a sword for a reason. The Deciples has been threatened and also they feared Jesus would be injured by those who were against him.
Rev Jim (Jones)
The “Rev” Jim Jones of the Guyana mass suicides, the leader of the “peoples temple” was a Marxist who put up posters of Mao and Lenin and Marx in his “temple”.
The man had many Democrat elected officials as friends.
This is SO illustrative. There are any number of ways to translate just about each and individual sentence in the bible. And people have been at it for millenia.
And each and every debater maitains that THEY have found the one true meaning.
If I were even remotely religious, I might take that as a deliberate attempt on the part of “God” to be vague. Sorta a latter day version of the Tower of Babel written into the doctrine.
Just so NO ONE could ultimately be entirely right or wrong.
“God is a comedian playing to an audience afraid to laugh”
Voltaire
Since I seem to a topic of conversation. you can read my comments from yesterday I never mention Econ. Kansas and Ed I gave kudos to, Econ while he talks the talk, I dont think he has the fortitude to be counted as a true conservative. And for the record Jesus was a pussy his love your enemies, turn the other cheek, philosophy is one of weakness and tailor made for cowards. While Jesus is giving Osama Bin Laden love & compassion, I want someone who will blow his brains out and wipe out his family. And the so called “Rev Jim” and JR are a bunch of crybaby Liberals and the only good liberal is a dead one.
Sincerely, Horst “Arbecht Mach Frie”
Well,When a “Christian” or “Catholic” group can get all the radical atheists and agnostics to come to its defense —
You can be pretty sure that the group is not founded on any real, theological basis.
What the Hell? why is Horst using my Nic?
GOSH you got a fan Paul!
You know Fascism is the best way to combat Marxism, Horst youve shown me the errors of my ways Long live Der Fuhrer
Horst and econ sittin’ in a tree….
gotta love it.
Not true Paulie – some of us moderate agnostics can respect theology.
But I do find it amusing when positions that I read about in the Catholic Advance are attacked by a self-described Catholic.
The above “econ” post was not from me
Typical liberal troll crap
BenThere is a great deal of error among church officials.There always has been, to some extent.
It is actually an error to say, “He is in Heaven now” for instance, at a funeral.
We can not know that.
But it is done all the time.
Econ — I know of no liberals who would want to troll with your Nic… It would be embarrassing!
And BenThe Pope must be acknowledged by Catholics, and obeyed, when he “Speaks from the throne of St Peter” — in other words, the Pope must INVOKE infallibility on a question of faith, before I must follow.
Other than that, the Pope, Bishops and Priests have opinions, just like everyone else.
I am free to disagree with them.
Again, this phoney “Catholics United” group claims to be “pro-life” but they do nothing to advance the cause.
Their mission is to water down the term and confuse the faithful.
Where else might “he” be, at the funeral?? Is that not spoken at the funeral by “faith” and not by sight??
ChasCatholics believe in purgatory.
The early Church prayed for the dead all the time, and the Catholic Church still does.
I am just pointing out that Catholic Priests often make this mistake, and the Catholic Advance, of which Ben speaks, had a warning to the faithly, in the last edition, to avoid such errors.
Let me be clear, this post was NOT from me:—–
“You know Fascism is the best way to combat Marxism, Horst youve shown me the errors of my ways Long live Der Fuhrer
Posted by: Econ101 | November 13, 2007 at 04:28 PM
—-This is troll crap from a cowardly liberal.
Hmmmm… I thought Vatican II did away with a mandatory belief in purgatory?? Along with a number of other things??
For instance, the Pope has never spoken Ex Cathedra on the issue of “birth control” — He has only issued an opinion.
SO, faithful Catholics around the world COULD use birth control measures, and not violate the teachings of the Church — IF they choose to do so!!
I learned that from a Monsignor friend of mine back east… It was a major eye opener for me!!
Isnt it the “offical” Catholic position the the death penalty is immoral, and a divorcee who remarries is worse than murder as a murderer can be redeemed but a remarried divorcee is in a constant state of sin since it is adultery to be divorced and remarry.
Actually Paul, that was typical CON troll crap.
ChasNOPE you are wrong.Purgatory is still official doctrine of the Catholic Church.
Martin Luther changed the Bible around, removing even some of the books that were in the Temple at the time of Jesus.
Martin Luther, rightly, thought that the Catholic Church had fallen into scandal with the outright sale of “indulgences” to get people out of Purgatory.
However, Luther’s response was to remove the whole idea of Purgatory from his new Church, by changing the original Bible.—–
Tom Pain
NOPE!
In fact, Divorce is not a “sin” at all.
Furthermore, while official “annulment” of a marriage is often in order, before remarriage, there is another alternative:
Marriage is a sacrament conducted by the bride and the groom. The Priest only presides and acts as a witness.
If EITHER party to the marriage later decides that the marriage was not “sacrimentally valid” then either party may remarry.
This is known as the “internal forum”. It is accepted Church doctrine, but very, very few Priests know anything about it:
http://www.amazon.com/Open-Arms-Catholics-Divorce-Remarriage/dp/089243810X
http://astro.temple.edu/~arcc/rights4.htm
Legitimate defense:
2263 The legitimate defense of persons and societies is not an exception to the prohibition against the murder of the innocent that constitutes intentional killing. “The act of self-defense can have a double effect: the preservation of one’s own life; and the killing of the aggressor. . . . The one is intended, the other is not.”
2264 Love toward oneself remains a fundamental principle of morality. Therefore it is legitimate to insist on respect for one’s own right to life. Someone who defends his life is not guilty of murder even if he is forced to deal his aggressor a lethal blow:
If a man in self-defense uses more than necessary violence, it will be unlawful: whereas if he repels force with moderation, his defense will be lawful. . . . Nor is it necessary for salvation that a man omit the act of moderate self-defense to avoid killing the other man, since one is bound to take more care of one’s own life than of another’s
2265 Legitimate defense can be not only a right but a grave duty for one who is responsible for the lives of others. The defense of the common good requires that an unjust aggressor be rendered unable to cause harm. For this reason, those who legitimately hold authority also have the right to use arms to repel aggressors against the civil community entrusted to their responsibility.
And finally:2267 Assuming that the guilty party’s identity and responsibility have been fully determined, the traditional teaching of the Church does not exclude recourse to the death penalty, if this is the only possible way of effectively defending human lives against the unjust aggressor.
If, however, non-lethal means are sufficient to defend and protect people’s safety from the aggressor, authority will limit itself to such means, as these are more in keeping with the concrete conditions of the common good and are more in conformity to the dignity of the human person.
Today, in fact, as a consequence of the possibilities which the state has for effectively preventing crime, by rendering one who has committed an offense incapable of doing harm – without definitely taking away from him the possibility of redeeming himself – the cases in which the execution of the offender is an absolute necessity “are very rare, if not practically non-existent.”
The above was changed dramatically from the original text, as was this, now deleted portion: 2266 Preserving the common good— by means of penalties commensurate with the gravity of the crime, not excluding, in cases of extreme fravity, the death penalty.”
Catechism of the Catholic Church
http://ccc.scborromeo.org.master.com/texis/master/search/?sufs=0&q=Defense&xsubmit=Search&s=SS
And, on subsidiarity:
http://ccc.scborromeo.org.master.com/texis/master/search/?sufs=0&q=subsidiarity&xsubmit=Search&s=SS
Now that an election is looming, expect Tiahrt to hide from any debates. He almost always has. The man couldn’t win a debate with a paper bag. At least Bob Dole was smart. Tiahrt is just corrupt and stupid.
OttoI know Todd Tiahrt
He is a very smart man.
Dole also played a big hand in getting Tiahrt elected, in the first place!
WEll, actually, postinjg here under the name “Jesus Christ” is probably a sin.
The Catholic Church has NEVER held that civil divorce was a sin.
The Church does, rightly, not allow the remarriage of those whose original marriage was “valid” — but the Church does understand that many marriages should never have happened because those involved were not sacramentally ready or open to marriage.
That is Catholic Church law.
You’re right Econ101…it’s not getting divorced that’s the sin..it’s the remarriage..because the church doesn’t recognize the divorce in the first place…unless it’s a “Catholic divorce” as in an anullment.
Econ101,
if he’s so smart why won’t he debate the issues during elections. What’s he afraid of?
I bet that’s not really Jesus.
MaryThis book is out of print but it is in agreement with me, and has the blessing of the Church:
http://www.amazon.com/Open-Arms-Catholics-Divorce-Remarriage/dp/089243810X
This book spells out the option of the “internal forum” — in other words, if your conscience truly tells you that your marriage was not sacramentally valid, you can remarry within the Church.
No, the option should not be abused, but there are clearly many, many situations in which it should be considered.
Otto”debates” are attended only by partisans on each side, who already have their minds made up.
If it were televised, well, that might be different.
However, I see no reason for Tiahrt to give his opponent any more publicity than he has to.
Econ101So just as he takes trips, with his family, to Europe and Hawaii on my nickel, he also can play dirty politics with his opponents by relying on his blind followers to vote for him and not allow his opponents to expose his constant abuse of his office or his self-centred policies, where he votes on issues with those who give him the most money. Kock has given him a lot of money and he has faithfully voted against any environmental policy that might upset them.He is smart at taking full advantage of the office to make himself rich at the tax-papers expense.
Econ101…don’t misunderstan what I said…I totally believe in divorce if the marriage isn’t working.I think the Church is staring to soften it’s stand on the matter in order to keep it’s members happy. When I was growing up, it was a huge deal if a Catholic got divorced and obtaining an anullment was almost unheard of..now it’s a pretty common thing.
Paul, when Jesus was out healing lepers how much did he charge?
Also, I wonder if you’d like to go to the Lord’s Diner and tell them they aren’t Catholics for what they are doing.
Wow..forgive the typos..it’s time to quit. Good night all.
MaryNo sin in Typos, I hope, or I have an eternity in Purgatory!
Also, Mary, as I said before, many Priests dont fully understand the “internal forum” that Hosi mentions in his book “With Open Arms”.
It is possible to remarry, in the Church, without a formal annulment. It depends on the circumstances, and the firm belief that the marriage was not valid to begin with.
It always has been, though the Church doesnt publicize that fact.
DougActually, a “tithe” is 10%
Ha, so under Paul’s religion even the beggars and poor cripples have to tithe. I didn’t know Jesus ran a church but I guess Paul’s new translation has a different story.
Here’s what the Family Research Council says about “Catholics United”:
http://www.frc.org/get.cfm?i=WA07J26#WA07J26
Meet the liberal partisan organization Catholics United. The organization is running radio advertisements on Christian stations in 10 congressional districts targeting what they deem as pro-life hypocrites. By this they mean House members who are pro-life when it comes to abortion, euthanasia, embryonic stem cell research and the Mexico City policy, but who oppose the expansion of SCHIP, a children’s health insurance program that has become a Trojan Horse for universal health care. Catholics United promotes global warming, government control of health care, and withdrawal from Iraq. Their targets for the SCHIP ads look like they were handpicked by the Democratic Congressional Campaign Committee. All the targeted congressmen, save one, are pro-life Republicans and of those nine, six are in very vulnerable districts. The one Democrat, Gene Taylor of Mississippi, won with 80% of the vote last year and thus is a fig leaf for the group’s partisanship. Such choices indicate that the ideal candidate for Catholics United is a pro-abortion and pro-gay marriage Democrat – issues the Roman Catholic Church deems non-negotiable who will support a massive expansion of SCHIP. Catholics United Executive Director Chris Korzen in a press release regarding these ads said: “Building a true culture of life requires public policies that promote the welfare of the most vulnerable.” Given the organization’s determination to oust pro-life Republicans, the “most vulnerable” to Mr. Korzen are clearly not innocent children in the womb.
Meadowlark, what does the KKK say about Jews and Blacks? I’m sure we can get a reasoned view from the KKK just like we can from a hate group like the Family Research Council.
Doug,
How can you even claim to be reasonable when you compare the Family Research Council to the KKK?
Actually,The Federal KKK ACT was used against prolife protesters by the drunk Federal Judge Patrick Kelly.
Kelly lost in the 10th Circuit.
Part of the reason Kelly lost, in the Tiller and other cases, is that the Supreme Court stated that there was no “class based animus” (no hatred) in the motives of Operation Rescue in particular and the Pro Life movement, in general.
Econ101,
“”Debates” are attended only by partisans on each side, who already have their minds made up.
If it were televised, well, that might be different.
However, I see no reason for Tiahrt to give his opponent any more publicity than he has to.”
What’s Tiahrt scared of, Econ101? Why is he scared of a having to answer to the public?
More to the point, Econ101, why are YOU countenancing the effort by an elected official to have to face his constituents?
Detest representative government much, Econ101?
CF2K
Save your outrage for Hillary!
That woman avoids true debate every time she gets the chance.
She plants questions, she refuses to answer tough questions:
http://www.salon.com/opinion/paglia/2007/11/14/hillary/?source=whitelist
CF2K,
Call Tiahrt. Write Tiahrt. Talk to his staffers.
He is not hiding from anyone.
There must be a multitude of different ways to see your constituents without indulging the person trying to oust you.
This thread is about the accountability of a United States Congressman to vote to support the programs he affirms to support when he is campaigning and talking to public groups and issuing press releases. For the Congressman to affirm his support for the programs that SCHIP funds and then to not vote for the bill is irresponsible and unethical.
For the voters in Kansas who believed that Tiahrt would represent his campaign platform – well there has been great dissapointment.
Maybe when Congressman Tiahrt signed the Contract with America and then abandoned the Contract – it should have been a wake-up call to the voters of Kansas’ 4th District. Unfortunately – Kansas keeps sending Tiahrt back to Washington where he fails to deliver his promises.
I have a problem with dishonesty and misleading the public – by this Congressman. He should practice what he preaches – or craft a new sermon.
I DID write to him Nathan.
I got a note from his assistant telling me I might better seek representation in another state. That and lots of no response at all.
Lonnie
Tiahrt never promised to support YOUR liberal agenda.
Tiahrt has strong support because he does represent his district.
JR,
Well, if what you wrote to him was even half as bad as some of the things you write here, I am surprised they wrote back to you at all!
Sounds like selective representation to me there Nathan.
But hey we all know Tiahrt was hand picked to represent a small group of folks. He does manage to do that. The balance of his district not so much
JRActually, if that is what the Tiahrt letter said, I would find fault with said letter, myself:
I can’t think of a single member of Congress, anywhere in the Country, that agrees with even 80% of your views!
Shooting illegals crossing the border?
Moving Israel to Europe?
Repeal of NAFTA and return to trade tarriffs (and trade wars)?
Again, If Tiahrt sent such a letter, they should have told you where to move.
I can’t think of a single member of Congress that thinks like you.
Please correct me if I have mistated your positions.
I am more than happy to assist in your move. It might help if you would soften your positions on a few of these issues. Your “Placement” would then be much easier.
Feel free to lie as usual Paul Rosell. I never said a thing about shooting illegals. You’ve also mis stated me in the rest of your post.
Did you ever find that email you said you had from someone about me Paul?
Actually, JR, you said we should “mine the borders” did you not?
So, my apologies, but I figure “shooting” at a target is actually more humane than land mines. — So I have done you and your postion no unfair harm.
I said mine the border and make ample notification to the Mexican government and people.
Mines are passive defense. Vastly different from one human being shooting at another.
And many countries use them as border security. Why should we be different?
Probably the one thing I do agree with JR on.
Why not mine the borders?
After a few gringos get blown up trying to cross, the cost/benefit ratio goes down considerably for them.
I also said exercise DEA like penalties on businesses that are found to employ illegals.
“Oh I SEE now.
brian is an accountant.
One way or another, he likely profits from the illegals being here.
Well brian? For those of us who are not accoutants, just how low would you like to see wages go? And working conditions and all the other things American workers have fought and even died for this last century? Well let’s just piss that into the wind too! All so brian can either feel all noble and humane or collect at the bottom line?
Thanks no.
Mine the border.
Posted by: J R | October 25, 2007 at 01:58 PM
Actually, JR, lots of folks, Princess Di among them, think land mines are very evil, in that they kill indiscriminately.
Put another way, a “Booby trap” in the home or business, set to shoot or kill an intruder, is usually considered illegal.
It is a basic tenant of defense or self defense that you should “target” your response to an appropriate combatant, if at all possible.
Shooting Coyotes, or the smugglers, is OK with me, if they do not “hault” when commanded.—-
Anyway, more to my point:
Please name a member of Congress that agrees with YOU on this one?
Uh huh Paul.
That’s one of many of my posts from that thread.
Any time I have advocated mining the border I have ALWAYS said do so only after a diligent effort to make it known.
NOT doing so would be inhumane and not productive. People who get blown up do not get to tell others about it.
Nice try at a smear though.
Or you could go get that email you say you got about me.
I’ve got to go. Feel free to lie away some more.
The US government doesnt think landmines are inhumane.
I have a correction to make.
I ALMOST always say mine the border only after a diligent information campaign.
It seems on that thread that one occasion I did not.
I wish to be clear. Mine the Mexican border but only after a vigorous information campaign.
I apoplogize for any confusion.
Nathan, in case you’re interested the Family Research Council paid KKK’s David Duke $82,000 for his mailing list of racists and tried to hide the fact from the FEC.
If a group gets it’s support from racists and KKK members then the comparison is fairly accurate. It’s not my fault who you make your bedfellows with.
JRI accept your amended position.
Still, my point to everyone is this:
Most Democrats support “open borders” and Amnesty programs.
JR’s hot button issues are too numerous to count. Illegal alliens seem to upset him much more than the average Dem.
In fact, JR’s positions seem contradictory. It is not my point, here, to debate the relative merits of each of his positions.
I am making the point that JR would be quite unique, if he were a member of Congress. (Unfortunately, JR’s mixed, contradictory positions seem very common among leftist fringe groups.)
In other words, if we are to find JR a like-mionded Congress member, so he can move to a new Congressional District, we must find a member of Congress who would:
Mine the Mexican Border, in order to kill starving peasants being forced to cross at gunpoint, by ruthless coyotes pushing drugs and the illegal sex trade.
Oppose the waterboarding of terrorist illegal enemy combatants, who might have information that would save American lives.
Move Israel to Europe
Repeal NAFTA
Raise Taxes
Declare defeat and withdraw from Iraq.
Support Abortion in all cases.
Support Gay Marraige.
Again, we need to find a member of Congress that supports ALL of JR’s views, so that that JR can move and be emotionally at peace with his representation.
I cant think of anyone, can you?
Doug,
Do you have a link for that?
I don’t think using land mines is bad.
Recklessly leaving them all over somewhere without trying to clean them up is the problem.
Although I am for border fences and other measures to secure the border, I could not support placing mines on the Mexican border. Do we really want to give the death penalty to people who are trying to enter this country illegally? Does it pass the morality test? I don’t think so.
NathanI have no problem with landmines in a war zone.
I only stated, upthread, that a rifle shot, aimed precisely, is far better than a random land mine.
JR seems to think landmines are more “humane” than a round from a well aimed rifle, pointed at a selected target.
Econ101,
You wouldn’t want my opinion on what is humane.
I get it from a crazy NBC officer I had served with.
If you want to talk about the most humane thing, then we need to talk about Chemical and Nerve Agents.
And, again, how many Democrats in Congress support ANY real border security?
I would like to see public service announcements, telling Mexicans about the abuse and rape of women crossing the border, by the “coyotes”.
I would like to see far more enforcement, on the border, along with fences, walls and electronic measures.
Here ya go Nathan:
http://www.thenation.com/doc/20050509/blumenthal
How ’bout government snipers who target every empolyer of an illegal alien?
There’d be a lot of funerals in Bentonville.
Mine the border, but then Hillary will give them a drivers licence, in New York, if they make it through the obstacle course!
Good ol’ Paul, always up for killing people. Another “pro-life” Christian spreading his love.
Econ — Ummmm Spitzer has withdrawn the “drivers license” issue already — Maybe Hillary was RIGHT ON when she stated that she sympathized with him in dealing with that issue… like the other 49 governors have to deal with that issue… even here in Kansas… That “Issue” isnt going to go away fast, when all the Republicans can do is repeat the same BS that the Reagan administration put out on illegals way back in 1986 or 1988.
Ummm Doug, I think Econ wants to shoot em first; mines might raise questions of inhumane treatment… JR and Nathan like the mine idea LOL
DougFor Heavens sake, I was making a joke.I am against putting land mines on the border.Your fellow liberal, JR, wants to mine the border.I find it odd that JR would support random killing, through landmines on the border, but would not support mild waterboarding, in order to save American lives.
I dont want to shoot them either, lol, for Heavens sake, read the entire thread would you?
I think it is ok to shoot the coyotes, if they do not obey an order to “halt” or surrender.
I am against open borders, but it is JR that wants to mine the borders.
I at first accused JR of wanting to shoot illegals crossing the border.
I was wrong, he only wants to blow them up with land mines.
lol
You people are unreal.
Especially your refusal to argue with anyone on your side.
Sorry JR — but why would I agree with anything as silly as mining the borders?? There are other ways to handle it!!
Ya know?
You wouldn’t have to even really mine the border now I think about it.
We could just SAY we were heavily mining the border. That would cut down illegals coming here for awhile. After a while, we’d have to fake a few incidents just to keep it convincing.
This and HEAVY measures against those who hire illegals are far more cost effective than feel good fences. It is also eminently more humae than keeping Mexico a dysfunctional nation for the sake of cheap labor. Don’t like this solution Paul? When did you ever present another? The shooting thing was maybe more close to you than you’d like to say so you projected it on me?
Good ol’ liar Paul. The mines bit was the only thing he got close to right. The rest is bullet points with no context.
First? I didn’t amend my position. I kept you from distorting it.
Yes Israel IS in about the worst possible place that it could be and Europe was ONE suggestion I had.The Jewish people lost lots of land and property in Europe. I’ve made others. 60 years and it aint getting better. It won’t either. Why are you opposed to trying?
Repeal Nafta? Yup. Do you know anyone much who DOESN’T want to repeal Nafta?
Raise taxes? HAVE to. That or radical changes in our foreign policy of preemptive action you so love. This thread is about a few billions for SCHIPs. Iraq and Afghanistan are projected to pass 2 trillion dollars. If we don’t have the money to take care of our own kids we are gonna need to get some coming in to pay for bush’s big adventure for sure!
Defeat and withdraw from Iraq? YOU insult the troops Paul. They already WON Iraq. How DARE you blame them for bush’s failed exit strategy? And I was NOT for withdrawl from Iraq until their own government went on vacation while our troops patrolled protecting their asses in 130 degree heat.
Support abortion in all cases? It is the law there Paul. I spend my time advacating to make life better for those already born. That’s the right way to address the problem.
Support gay marriage. Civil unions or whatever term you want to hang on it. I don’t advocate legislating against people who aren’t hurting anybody. If THEIR rights are denied, mine might be next.
Now ya did all that Paul to make a point and as usual to post half truths and lies. Your point was I SHOULD have to move to find representation in government.
You just made me answerable to the governent instead of the government answerable to me for representation.
Is that another tenet of the world you live in?
Correct me if I’m wrong? I don’t think this is what the founders had in mind.
Don’t bother paul. I’ll bust your lies when I see them. Other than that you aint worth the time.
JRI lied about nothing!
Shoot them or blow them up, they are still dead!
You show more mercy to terrorists than you show to poor peasants, many of them forced by circumstance or forced at the point of a gun to cross our borders.
My point is that NOBODY in Congress, currently, agrees with you on all the issues.
By the way, a majority in Congress still supports NAFTA.
I don’t think anybody in Congress, supports blowing up illegals with land mines.
I don’t think anybody, in Congress, supports the forcible move of Israel to Europe.
Nobody with any sanity agrees with your entire platform, JR.
That is very unfortunate, actually, as that means you will probably have to make due, here!
By the way, JR:
Please name a Democrat candidate for President that wants to do anything at all about illegal alliens and closing our borders, whould you?
We would all love to see a Democrat with any real ideas on this issue.
Democrats love to bring the issue up, when running against an incumbent Republican — but they dont really DO anything when they get into office!
It is a “blank slate” issue: “Joe Republican has done NOTHING about illegal alliens” the advertising says —
Without ever mentioning a “solution”!
I am a moderate on immigration. I wnat to close and guard the borders. I want to grant citizenship to members of the military and their families. I want the United States government to begin to scold Mexico for their failed policies, just like we did to the Soviet Union.
However, I am tired of “feel good” Democrat candidates who want it both ways.
Immigration will work against Democrats this time around.
Show me a Democrat candidate with a rational position, JR.
Show me a Democrat candidate with any real positon, at all!
Yeah Paulecon I got this problem.
I am cursed with actually thinking for myself on issues.
You do not deviate in any way any fraction from the policies of george bush and company. Beats thinking?
And you still have that problemm of saying folks should have to move themselves to get representation. Damned hard to get outta that one.
I guess I could take that attitude in the reverse. I could not respect and so violate any laws I don’t agree with? The world according to J R? Nope, I didn’t make that demand.
And MY sanity?
Party loyalty is one thing. Blind allegiance another.
YOUR slavish embrace/defence re:bush?
That’s mental illness.
You don’t care about the country. You don’t care about anything. Your whole world is one man. I remember when you said bush should be on Rushmore. Next you’ll want to cannonize him.
Scary.
bye Paul. I’ll visit your world again when you skywrite my nic in it.
Defense of the country Paul. That is the province of the Commander in Chief. You KNOW his name.
bye Paul.
LOL
Guess I got to ya, huh?
Well, JR, I think Bush should have vetoed a few spending bills, in his first 6 years in office.
I think he should have tried the close the borders, first, before figuring out what to do about illegals that were already here.
I think Bush was wrong on the “No Child Left Behind” education bill that he let Ted Kennedy force on all of us.
But, no President is perfect.
Bush is a great man, and he will be much like Truman:
Respected for doing what HE thought was best, regardless of the polls.
That, JR, is called: “LEADERSHIP!”
Got to me?
I just get tired smacking you around.
The longer we go the more likely you will do something stupid like say you have an email about me that claims I’m a drunken, drug abusing,girlfriend beater. You won’t HAVE the email because it had a virus and you opened it anyway. Or you’ll tell me how truth is what truth is to you or
some other such.
THEN you’ll whine endlessly for days about how I am so mean to you.
Really, I’ve better things to do.
Leadership? Oh yeah bullheadedness comes into that.
So does accountability. There is also a responsibility to be intellectually curious helps.
Truman said “The buck stops here.”
With bush the bucks never stop. They just get handed around.
LOL
Whatever, JR.
Everything I have said here is true to the best of my knowledge and ability to discover the truth.
In fact, I think that the nasty emails that you, and people like you, have sent out, in the past, to other bloggers, have much to do with why the Eagle no longer lists our email addresses on this Blog.
I will admit that I can not prove who the person was, who sent me an email sticking up for you.
You go by so many different nics, here, that it might have been your female alter ego!
However, I have never lied, everything I have said has been true, based on actual events.
I think you need to get passed this.
By the way, I still note that you NEVER post on the Meth/DUI/Alcohol or drug threads.
It is Your right to ignore them, of course, but —
I brought up your avoidance of those substance abuse threads PRECISELY because you took a shot at me for not posting on EVERY thread, and for avoiding issues that I did not want to talk about.
So, I pointed out that you avoid the substance abuse threads — and the rest is history.
Sigh….
You don’t post on Open threads Paul. Shall I infer you don’t have an open mind?
Well we all know you don’t but we didn’t base it on what threads you post.
I don’t post on community threads much. Hmmm maybe I live elsewhere…
I’m not much for sports threads either. I probably want sports banned?
And I DID post on a meth thread the other day.
I go by different nics? Prove it? Get a second affirmation? No one else thinks I do. For the record I don’t think you do. You don’t have enough to fill one nic.
And IF I ever judged you by the threads you post it was likely early on and calling you a johnnyonenote. I have been known to do that with the more shrill posters.
Carry on Paul.
JRTry again —
You went after me for not posting on every thread.
I responded that you avoided certain topics.
That is how this particular petty fight started.
However, since you keep bringing up this “letter” that you say you were sent by Tiahrt, telling you to move, I thought I would help you find a member of Congress that agrees with you.
Since there is NOBODY who out there who agrees with you, 100%, perhaps you could be less shrill in your attacks on Tiahrt?
Econ 101 or Paul or what ever your name is:
I didn’t realize liberalism was a disease so hideous that such people should be banned from this state and not allowed any representation in government.I guess you want a one party state where everyone agrees with your narrow views. Kind of like Nazi Germany.
shut up Otto
Kansas has spoken!! “Otto you are not to speak ever again!”
Have another drink and bully someone else Kansas.
I’ve made that exact comparison before. Preach abstinence, be pro-life, but you’re on your own if you have a baby and can’t get insurance. It is hypocritical.