After Sept. 11, the CIA proposed an in-depth study of world religion. It was dismissed as “mere sociology.†Imagine the difference in the Iraqi conflict had guiding powers possessed a working understanding of the Sunnis’ and Shiites’ faith and interaction.
Religion is something we can no longer afford to be in denial about. Much of the world lives wrapped around religious convictions, which guide everything from society to foreign policy.
John Micklethwait of the Economist predicts that religion will be the defining aspect of the next century globally. Be it jihad or an entrenched caste system, religious conflict abounds around the world and controls the climate of globalization and international relationships.
Leading religious scholar Philip Jenkins projects that religion will be the “prime animating and destructive force in human affairs, guiding attitudes to political liberty and obligation, concepts of nationhood and, of course, conflicts and wars.â€
Posted by Kristin Mehler
189 Comments
kristin, the link in your storyhttp://www.economist.com/specialreports/displaystory.cfm?story_id=10015255
creates a popup forcing the user to run some sort of performance software.
I used the Windows Task Manager to shut it down as there was no other way to cancel it.
A Web page with a good primer on Western Church/State Relationships.
- England has recognized the Church of England as their official religion for centuries. The queen is the head of the church. Changes in church policies must be approved by the House of Lords.
- The 19th Century Russian government had an alliance with the Russian Orthodox Church; after the revolution, Atheism became the new official “religion.” They have since made strides to again give the Russian Orthodox Church special status.
- The German government collects religious taxes from the public, and transfers them to the main Protestant and Catholic churches. The government also substantially finances these churches out of state funds.
http://www.religioustolerance.org/scs_intr.htm
There are two strong pro-democracy secular parties in Iran and Pakistan. Problem is the Bush administration is supporting the theocratic regime in Iran by threatening the country with military invasion and Bush is backing the military dictatorship in Pakistan.
BTW, Atheism never became the official “religion” of the Soviet Union. That’s just ignorance of history speaking.
Arguing from “Ignorance”
The Absence of Religion is Itself a Religion?
The argument of Atheism is not a religion and other excerpts of Theism controversies.
“A basic doctrine of Communism is its militant atheism, which does not concede to any religion the right to exist. Thus two faiths became opposed to each other.” The Church in the Soviet Union 1917 - 1941 N. S. Timasheff Russian Review, Vol. 1, No. 1 (Nov., 1941), pp. 20-30 oi:10.2307/125428
===============Soviet Law:http://atheism.about.com/library/world/KZ/bl_RussiaOrthodoxHistory.htm
Article 52 of the U.S.S.R. Constitution defines freedom of conscience as the right “to conduct religious worship or atheist propaganda.” This formulation in effect makes illegal the conduct of “religious propaganda”; i.e., to engage in public discussion or refute atheist propaganda.=============================
How Atheism in the Soviet Union became the Official State “Religion.”
or
Replace the Priests with your own Atheistic Goon Squad
Some of the most prominent members of the Russian Orthodox hierarchy and religious activists were jailed or forced to leave the church. Their place was taken by a docile clergy whose ranks were sometimes infiltrated by agents of the Committee for State Security (Komitet gosudarstvennoy bezopasnosti–KGB http://countrystudies.us/russia/38.htm=======================
So you think Atheism is not considered a religion?
or
“You don’t need a God to have a religion”
United States Court Cases
Kaufman v. McCaughtry
“A federal court of appeals ruled yesterday Wisconsin prison officials violated an inmate’s rights because they did not treat
atheism as a religion.
“Atheism is [the inmate's] religion, and the group that he wanted to start was religious in nature even though it expressly
rejects a belief in a supreme being,” the 7th Circuit Court of Appeals said.”
Kaufman v. McCaughtry, No. 03-C-027, 422 F. Supp. 2d 1016 (W.D. Wis. 2006).
http://www.aele.org/law/2006JBAUG/JB2006AUG.html—————————-The Supreme Court has recognized atheism as equivalent to a “religion” for purposes of the First Amendment on numerous occasions, most recently in McCreary County, Ky.v. American Civil Liberties Union of Ky., 125 S.Ct. 2722(2005).
=================================What about Secularism?
Is that a religion as well?
This court decision appears to be muddier than the “Kaufman” case. However, it uses the establishment clause premise in this manner:
“Torcaso v. Watkins, 367 U.S. 488 (1961) was a United States Supreme Court case in which the court reaffirmed that the US Constitution prohibits States and the Federal Government from requiring any kind of religious test for public office.”http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Torcaso_v._Watkins
Full Text of the Torcaso V Watkins at Findlaw:
TORCASO v. WATKINS, 367 U.S. 488 (1961) 367 U.S. 488 TORCASO v. WATKINS, CLERK. APPEAL FROM THE COURT OF APPEALS OF MARYLAND.No. 373. Argued April 24, 1961. Decided June 19, 1961.
http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/scripts/getcase.pl?court=US&vol=367&invol=488
Other references:
Atheism
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atheism
Abington School Dist. v. Schempp, 374 U.S. 203, 225 (1963)
Birgit Ehlers-Renzi; Vincent Renzi, v. Connelly School of the Holy Child, Incorporated [No. 99-2352] 4th Circuit Court of
Appeals
Interesting cases Law Reviews that reference the Kaufman v. McCaughtry case and the establisment clause.
http://kansasscience2005.com/Letter_%20to_%20Board_Attorney_re_materialism.pdf
http://www.kansasscience2005.com/Findings%20of%20fact%20final.pdf
Appeal from the United States District Courtfor the Western District of Wisconsin.No. 03-C-027-C—Barbara B. Crabb, Chief Judge.____________SUBMITTED OCTOBER 26, 2004OE—DECIDED AUGUST 19, 2005
Kaufman v. McCaughtry, No. 03-C-027, 422 F. Supp. 2d 1016 (W.D. Wis. 2006)
http://caselaw.findlaw.com/data2/circs/7th/041914p.pdf
By definition and by court ruling,Atheism is a religion.
The execution and replacement of Soviet Orthodox Leaders (which was the official church of Russia) with Atheistic Party members was indeed a sanction of Atheism as a State religion in which only official propaganda was preached.
Or, one can have an ignorance of history.
Ok, so what’s new? Religion has had everything to do with destructive forces globally since the inception of time.
“Interesting cases Law Reviews that reference the Kaufman v. McCaughtry case and the establisment clause.”===========================
In this case, the establishment clause is being upheld as recognizing the right to freedom FROM religion (or atheism!)
The Establishment Clause of the First Amendment refers to the first of several pronouncements in the First Amendment to the United States Constitution, stating that “Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion….” Together with the Free Exercise Clause, (”…or prohibiting the free exercise thereof”), these two clauses make up what are commonly known as the “religion clauses” of the First Amendment. wikipedia
Do the court rulings mean that a Christian group can sue an Atheistic group when an Atheist tries to prevent the Christian group from exercise their freedom of religion in Public forum.
After all, the Atheists are now considered a religious group and forcing their views on others would indeed be unconstitutional.
Boy, this talk about religion can sure spark contention. Is that right?
………….and trollboy “who” are these “atheist” groups?
from the article:”religious conflict abounds around the world”
Lemme guess..Terry Fox plans to be right there in the middle of the conflict. Remember his ’snake’ analogy? How the religious right hides in a hole until it pops up to bite?What a clown.
I found the perfect solution. I just say “I’m not a church man.” That way, I can be religious or athiest, as the situation demands.
Or: Why do we need a lable to describe the state of our relationship to things we can’t know.
Imagine there’s no heavenIt’s easy if you tryNo hell below usAbove us only skyImagine all the peopleLiving for today…
Imagine there’s no countriesIt isn’t hard to doNothing to kill or die forAnd no religion tooImagine all the peopleLiving life in peace…
You may say I’m a dreamerBut I’m not the only oneI hope someday you’ll join usAnd the world will be as one
Imagine no possessionsI wonder if you canNo need for greed or hungerA brotherhood of manImagine all the peopleSharing all the world…
You may say I’m a dreamerBut I’m not the only oneI hope someday you’ll join usAnd the world will live as one
Sing it comrade! Ve are all good people. It’s just religion screwing it up, right comrade John? If not ve would have nothing to fight for; expect for power, money and women. HAHAHAHAHAHAHA
Selling seperation of church and state might be a waste of time in that most of people we consider allies are not slavish to the crede of seperation anyway. In additon to the above posts, the PM of the UK cannot be a Roman Catholic, the British Commonwealth members ask that God Bless the Queen, several countries include an invocation that God bless their land, and in Canada some Christian schooling is supported by public taxes. Maybe the Evangelical selling point of America being alone and unique as a religious, rightful God oriented nation is a lot of baloney. Godlike is not necessarily church going.
………….and trollboy “who” are these “atheist” groups?Posted by: Apophis
Sorry I seem to have missed a post by “trollboy”, I even went back to review all the post above this one.I did see that others has came at this topic with a read and logical mind, including Kansas. Was trollboy a reference to one of the other posters? The question was a valid question since Christians have a equal right to express their believes as do atheist or be shielded from the others believes. I do support a ban on one religion or another using public space to promote their views. BUT public view is not the same as public space. Such as a mall is not owned by the public they simply have open access to it, while the county court house is public space. This blog is public view, but is owned by the Eagle who if they wish could ban any reference to God, the Devil or a believe in neither.
But yes America is rare in that though there maybe a large number claiming to be of the same faith. That one faith does not control this nation. For the most part we do separate state and religion, in our everyday dealings. A faith is a individual core. not this nation’s core and for that I am glad. I am free to believe what I want and no one can tell me to change that. To put one faith as the core is to make it a challenge to every others who faith is different.
Kansas,Try dumping IE and going with firefox, latest build, and normal settings. No popups. Also, google’s toolbar has an excellent popup blocker. I went to the site, and got no popups. I don’t use IE anymore just for that, and the security.
“Sorry I seem to have missed a post by “trollboy”, I even went back to review all the post above this one.”
I’m disappointed in your lack of attention to this forums number 1 problem writerdog. And et tu J M Walker?
For the record, I am FAR less concerned by Islamic fundamentalism than I am with Christian fundamentalism. For an uninterested atheist, I find Islam superior to Christianity in many ways. Not the least of which is a greater concern for one’s fellow man.
Separation of church and state is not the same thing as elimination of church. Or state.
It simply means governments in the United States of America cannot consider religion as a basis for civil law.
The Constitution’s rules of government are like the rules in baseball. You can be as devout a Baptist as there ever was, but it’s still 90 feet between the bases regardless of how many times you’ve been born.
Religionists — and atheists, for that matter — tend to lose track that the Constitution of the United States of America guarantees your right to believe, or not believe, in any theolgy that speaks to your soul. You’re entitled to what you believe but you are specifically prevented from imposing your religious beliefs under the color of law upon non-believers.
Just what is so hard to understand?
I find it interesting how much Christian bashing a topic like this brings out. In our lifetimes we haven’t seen Christian killing thousands but the same can’t be said for other religions. Why then does this topic bring out the worst in others?
>>For the record, I am FAR less concerned by Islamic fundamentalism than I am with Christian fundamentalism. For an uninterested atheist, I find Islam superior to Christianity in many ways. Not the least of which is a greater concern for one’s fellow man.
Posted by: J RJ<<
That must be why all our hospitals in town are named after Mohammed–because islam is so much more concerned about our fellow man. You know, Mohammed Medical Center, Via Mohammed, etc… and I guess thats why the islamists have had such a presence in Greensburg, preparing meals and such. I heard they ran the baptists clean outta town with all their benevolent concern for fellow man and such. and all that aid that flowed into iran after the earth quake in iran a few years ago, and the food, clothing and medical care that went into indonesia after the tsunami… that stuff only SEEMED to have come from Christians. It was really all Islamic stuff. And don’t forget Mother Theresa, that great undercover Muslim in India working with the poorest of the poor out of Islamic-driven concern for her fellowman. They are so humble, too, switching labels on aid boxes so that the Christians get credit for it. THeyve switched so many labels that I cant think of a single one that has their name on it. Ya, they demonstrate lots of concern for their fellowman.
“In our lifetimes we haven’t seen Christian killing thousands but the same can’t be said for other religions.”
Hitler’s Germany was intentioned as a state where the state was “god” if you will.
The reality is that Germany was universally populated with those of the Christian faith.
I trust we are familiar with history?
Doug:
Educate yourself:
http://www.allaboutphilosophy.org/communism.htm
Also, when the Generals of Red China took over Tibet, they told the Monks that “religion is poison”. At least that is the depiction in the film “Seven Years in Tibet”. I think that attitude is shared by YOU, based on your posts here.
Why would we sell separation of church and state abroad when we dont even have it here. We’re the most aggregious chrisitan government in the world.
And you can tell we are a christian nation by how many wars we start, how many people we kill, and how many people we torture.
Yep. Just look at the USA to see what harm a christian government can do. And I’m afraid we aint seen nuttin yet.
I trust we are familiar with history?
Posted by: J R | November 10, 2007 at 09:18 AM
This is my truth. “…a man will be know by his works.”
Because Hitler told others he was a Christian his works said otherwise. It’s like people I know saying they are associated with MENSA - doesn’t make it so.
People lie as Hitler did.
Religion isnt the opiate of the masses. It’s the poison of the masses. And christians in the US are the most toxic of all.
JM don’t you just love a country where you are allowed to say what you want when you want.
It’s easy to be brave in a country where someone else fought for your right to do just that. If you really become brave go to a Muslim country and substitute muslim for Christian in that statement.
JRYou are a historical perverter.
You are just completely wrong about Hitler.
Hitler murdered countless Catholic Priests and Nuns, along with Lutherans and the leaders of other Churches.
Hitler was a pagan.
By the way, the “Reverend” Jim Jones was a Marxist, who only pretended to be a “Christian” leader so that he could attract Koolaide drinkers to his cause, and get Jimmy Carter and other liberals to kiss up to him.
“Honor Killings” are common in Moslem countries.
It is accepted that the family of any woman can stone or brutally beat any woman to death, for even the slightest “shame” against the family, such as refusing an arrranged marriage, in nearly all Moslem cultures.
JRJ, I guess, you would fit right in, based on your statements here.
That’s right JM. It’s them Christians with that save your soul, feed the hungry, clothe the poor, visit the prisoner bs. That stuff is vile poison. Get thee behind me Christian!
The difficulty we run into these days is that SOME Christians claim persecution anytime they are denied the “right” to force their beliefs on others with the help of government.
Anyone mildly familiar with the history of the Constitution knows that Jefferson’s “wall of separation” of church and state got it exactly right. The specific prohibition against religious tests for public office (which is explicitly stated in the Constitution–see Article VI) is just one proof of it.
One tactic used by the dishonest is to claim that any instance of secularism–no religious circumstances at all–is somehow the “religion” of atheism. The idiocy of this position is self-evident.d
The obvious truth—that the Founders wanted a government neutral on religion–seems to seriously offend some people.
P.S. BTW–the subject of the thread was religious elsewhere–not in the U.S.
This book, written by a Jewish expert, praises the actions of the Church, and the Pope, during the reign of Hitler:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Myth_of_Hitler%27s_Pope:_How_Pope_Pius_XII_Rescued_Jews_from_the_Nazis
I am just laughing my butt off at these poor persecuted christians who’s major defense of their religion seems to be:
“Oh yeah? Well, we’re not as bad as other religions”.
Nice to know you measure your christianity by being just slightly less barbaric than your scapegoat muslims.
Christians. We dont kill QUITE as many folks as other religions.
Now there’s a ringing endorsement.
I love the smell of phoney christian outrage in the morning.
“Hitler murdered countless Catholic Priests and Nuns, along with Lutherans and the leaders of other Churches.
Hitler was a pagan.”
Uh no. His POLICIES killed and abused a whole lot of people. As far as I know, Hitler himself never hurt anyone DIRECTLY.
And who carried out those policies? That would be the German people, a majority of which were Christian.
I’m not engaging in Christian bashing. But if we wish to address religion and some of the ills it brings honestly, than we must be honest.
MANY Christians blame the Jews for killing Christ. Say it isn’t so and you are lying. This no doubt had much to do with the largely Christian Germany’s treatment of the Jews.
“I find Islam superior to Christianity in many ways. Not the least of which is a greater concern for one’s fellow man.”
Earth to JR: Not when it comes to women, children, or any living beings other than Islamic men!
If religion would go away, so would a lot of injustice, war, and ignorance. How many Islamic men would blow themsleves up if they didn’t believe there are 70 babes waiting to be banged in the after life? How many Christians would go to war if they believed that there is is no heaven? When people believe in these fantasic afterlives that are better than anything experienced on this earth, the motivation NOT to die goes by the wayside.
I believe religion has been the single most man-made destructive force on this earth so far.
And if you modern day christians want to be known by your works, I wonder how most people would identify you.
Feeding the poor? Or never meeting a war and killing you didnt love”
We know how you want to be known. But how are you really known? I think many folks would say your religious leaders are the purveyors of hate.
Dont you all have a christian lynching to tend to somewhere?
It is accepted that the family of any woman can stone or brutally beat any woman to death, for even the slightest “shame” against the family, such as refusing an arrranged marriage, in nearly all Moslem cultures.
JRJ, I guess, you would fit right in, based on your statements here.
Uh Yeah, my comments here are concerned with opposing religion based persecution, not promoting it.
Lie much Paul?
You are so correct about this Mary.
“I believe religion has been the single most man-made destructive force on this earth so far.”
They’d rather crawl up on the roof and fight than stand on the ground and be tolerant of others.
The most dangerous person in the world is one doing something in the name of god. Any god.
Doesnt the christian bible also advocate killing by throwing stones at adulterors?
Let’s start with all the republican perverts who honor their marriage vows so well.
My original comment here was comparative of religions.
In fairness, it is based on my experience.
I live in a Christian dominated nation. My expereince is with Christians and their ills. I am sure I could find much wrong if I lived in an Islamic based nation as well.
Ah, one of the bigger nut cases on the left, posted, on this thread, that Moslems were superior to Christians.
Then, Christians defend themselves and —-
Oh well
“MANY Christians blame the Jews for killing Christ. Say it isn’t so and you are lying. This no doubt had much to do with the largely Christian Germany’s treatment of the Jews.”
That goes against Christian theology, JR. Someone had to kill Christ, otherwise no Christian could go to heaven..Christ’s death is seen as the single most important gift that God gave the world..the sacrifice of His son.To this day, I don’t understand why God had to sacrifice his son in order for Christians to be saved from eternal damnation…He’s GOD, right? Why couldn’t he just forgive the original sin that stained man’s soul?I’m sorry, but religion makes no sense to me whatsoever, other than it’s use as a form of establishing social boundries and control, ie. if people don’t worry about burning in hell, they act out and become a general pain in the ass to everyone else sharing the planet with them.
JM I will match you hour for hour and dollar for dollar for my contributions to help those less fortunate than me. Going by the bitterness in your writings I imagine I will win. Regardless you need to borrow a page some someone smarter that you and quit bashing others who disagree with you.
Of course you might be like J R with your hand out all of the time and when no one fills it thinks the haves are once again not taking care of the have nots.
He had to kill his son, Mary, because chritians always demand blood. Just look at their track record. Blood everywhere and guilt for it no where. Heck they are even proud of their bloodlust. Washed in the blood, shed the blood, precious blood, drawing blood.
Chritians are obsessed with blood. As long as it isnt their own. The blood of others is always fair game. And drawing blood in the name of their god is praiseworthy.
Doesnt the christian bible also advocate killing by throwing stones at adulterors?
Let’s start with all the republican perverts who honor their marriage vows so well.
Posted by: JM | November 10, 2007 at 09:49 AM
As usual written in ignorance. Check the ‘Woman at the Well’ story.
JRYou are one of the most hateful people I have ever encountered.
I think you would have made a great Nazi.
Germany, after the WW1, suffered economically, for several reasons.
Hitler blamed the fate of Germany on “Jews” but it could have been anyone.
Jewish people tended to have most of the wealth, due to their own industry and hard work and international trade.
Nazi politics were largely based on class envy.
JR, your politics are entirely based on class envy.
JR, the Nazi!—-
By the way, anyone who did not obey an order from Hitler or his people was shot, or worse.
A pagan like Hitler comes to power, by brutal force and falsehood, and forces Christians to serve in his Army.
Then, you hatefilled Christian bashers dont take responsibilty for Hitler (He is one of yours) but you want us to take responsibilty for those who served Hitler, under threat of death if they refused?
All the JMs just make ksgerm crazy. She doesnt know who or how to attack. You are so wrong on all counts.
And you have no idea who is posting this.
Guess away. Swing at those shaddows.
I love watching paul flail away.
I thought christians had no fear of death. So why didnt they stand up to hitler and act in a christlike manner by refusing to shed innocent blood?
Or is acting christlike only required when there is no danger to the christian?
Keep flailing Paul. Dance puppet dance.
“JRYou are one of the most hateful people I have ever encountered.”
Who is ranting here Paul? You or me?
Have I showed you things that make you uneasy?
It would appear christian bravery in defending the innocent is only in play on an anonymous blog.
Why when it is convenient do we charge the US as the agressor because we are a Christian nation - or when that isn’t convenient we are the agressor because of the oil - or when that isn’t convenient we are the agressor because we are capitalists and want more, more, more…
Do those on the left see the drift here. Today bash Christians, tomorrow capitalists the next day big oil - but whatever you bash make sure you bash America first.
Your logic is no illogical and predictable it isn’t worth the time it takes to trade barbs with you.
hateful = anyone who disagrees with granny
hateful = anyone who points out the truth about christians
Perhaps because americans DO all those things?
Denial. It aint just a river in Egypt.
So grandma, what is your theory about why america is indeed the aggressor in all those situations?
For the record, Paul=econ
We want to be correct.
Hitler was a man.
Bin Laden is a man.
When we call them monsters, maniacs, etc, it removes the judgement on humanity as a whole.
It lets us blame one person instead of the failings of a society.
This is a bad place to begin addressing societal ills as pertains religion when we are not courageous and honest.
JM do you really think I care who you are? I know you - you are a hate filled, bitter little person/persons with no imagination and one agenda to trash the very country that gives you the freedom to post your garbage, defile government officials, and make yourself look like a moron.
Don’t you just love those freedom?
For Paul:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin’s_law
As an online discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches one.
JMYou and “truth” are but distantly aware of each other’s existance.
You are hate personified.
Hate is not truth.
You are far too emotional, far to full of hate, to ever be taken seriously about anything.
Take any Jew-bashing statement of Hitler, and substitute the word “Jew” with “Christian” or “Republican” or any other group that you hate, and we can all see you saying the same words.
Hitler was about hate.
JR is about hate.
Econ Paul blew up on us ksgrm. Now you?
The anger I see here is from people who seem quite defensive.
Benjamin Franklin understood this when he said..
“The sting in any rebuke is the truth,”
So grandma, what is your theory about why america is indeed the aggressor in all those situations?
Posted by: JM | November 10, 2007 at 10:04 AM
Well jm since those aren’t my positions but yours, defend your own positions. I think I live in the greatest country in the world. I think that we have had to defend ourselves from aggressors in the past and will have to in the future. I think that as a nation we have prospered because we worked hard to get where we are. So not sure what your question to be would be?
BenI was not the first to Bring up Hitler.
If brought up by others, I will respond, fair enough for you Ben?
—-”Hitler’s Germany was intentioned as a state where the state was “god” if you will.
The reality is that Germany was universally populated with those of the Christian faith.
I trust we are familiar with history?
Posted by: J R | November 10, 2007 at 09:18 AM
I find that those who toss about accusations of hate are generally projecting something that they dislike in themselves.
In other words, and again, who is ranting here econ Paul? You or me?
Typical response. When you cant answer the question, call the questioner a hater.
Kind of loses its impact after a while. Just like screaming socialism.
And the irony is just as lost.
I had it correct and Paul and granny keep repeating it.
Hater = anyone who questions or disagrees with them
WEll JR the only truth I see here is that you are sitting around with your hand out waiting for a demo to get in charge and expand the welfare rolls. I didn’t see econ blow up - I saw a person with principles telling you (a person without principles) the truth. Did it sting?
And back to the topic: It is sad to see the virtual collapse of a government like Lebanon where Church (and Mosque) has INFLUENCE but not CONTROL. Even Iraq under Saddam had a secular government that was INFUENCED by churc but not controled by it.
Paul - I agree that Hitler was not a good Christian; also that Phelps is not. That said I would say the same thing about Osama bin Ladin or Saddam Hussein. However I notice that you are among those who would smear all Muslims with the sins og those two.
I would add to my definition of “Church” such belief systems as Stalinism, Milosovichism, etc. Stalin was ateist; Milosovich Christian. However what they really developed were peosonality cults around themselves. And as a result they cause massive bloodshed and smeared the ‘faith traditions’ they claimed as roots.
One major reason I like separation of church and state is that we need the church to be the thorn in the side of state. If they are merged we lose that.
Remember, absolute power corrupts absolutely.
JR
So, by your logic, every time you appear angry, you agree with the “truth” of what others have said about you?—Your multiple personality postings to relieve you from some of your obvious contradictions, to a point.
Gets tough when you cant remember each of your personalities well enough to be sure which is contradicting, or supporting which, huh?
Hitler’s Germany was one example of a Christian based society and some of its ills Paulecon.
Maybe I should have mentioned another? Like say Bosnia?
I grant you its an equally valid example but less well known.
Paul - the difference is that you said that your enemy would make a good Nazi.
I only have one nic or personality Paul.
ksgrm? Advocating for the address of societal shortcomings does NOT equate with my having my hand out.
But I know it comforts you to retreat to the ad hominem.
Ben
Sadly, that is what I believe.
JR is a very hateful person, and a prime candidate for any ideology based on hate, as long as the “victim” (or villain, in JR’s mind) is someone JR already disfavors.
Haha I love it! J R and JM are pretending to be hateful morons.
They will reveal why soon and show everyone up. We Dems are sly guys.
“Then, you hatefilled Christian bashers dont take responsibilty for Hitler (He is one of yours) but you want us to take responsibilty for those who served Hitler, under threat of death if they refused?”
Sorry, but the Nazis were mostly Christian and had no problem with persecuting the Jews, they simply convinced themsleves that Jews were like dogs…subhuman. To this day I encounter people who feel the same way…and not only about Jews, but blacks, hispanics, Vietnamese, gays, etc.
Who makes up the KKK? Why do they burn a cross in the yards of those they seek to terrorize? I have yet to meet someone with these views that doesn’t expound their “Christianity” as rationalization for their intolerence toward anyone different than them.Just the other day I was talking to a man (a licienced minister by the way) who told me he refused to have anything to do with his niece because she married a black man..when I asked him why, he replied that interracial marriage was forbidden by God, I asked him where in the bible does it say that?…and of course he couldn’t tell me…but that’s just one example of how people use the facade of Christianity (and other relgions, too) to justify their hatred.
Yes Paul, it is sad that you have become so warped in your beliefs.
Well Jr and JM I just mistook your feeling toward those of us on the right as hate. Sorry I knew in my heart you really loved us. Thanks for affirming that.
Ben I agree with you to a point. I don’t think religion should be in the government - mine or anyone elses - I have said this repeatedly. The arguments we have on here some days are meaningless because they will never be legislated away. They are moral issues and will be decided by people (you and me) outside the government.
The constitution assures us ‘freedom of religion’ not ‘freedom from relition’. That said a very real threat comes about when zealots think that by removing anything Christian from the foundation of our great nation they will heal all ills the country faces.
It is this fear or hatred that is causing a division in our country. There will always be radicals on both side of every issue. The moderates have to keep our cool and let resonable minds prevail.
“the Nazis were mostly Christian”
HeHE, and the US is mostly Christian, too. Just Mz. Caruso.
Goodness, a whole thread and about the only other referenced sources for their opinions was Ben and Econ101.
The rest of it well, was opinion.
Informed or uninformed, undocumented opinion.
Well said Mary. To which I would add the fact that in many ways the Holocaust was a natural culmination of 1000 years of pogroms going all the way back to Pope Urban. Sadly anti-Semitism was strong in Europe long before Hitler and he found numerous collaborators in his “solution”
“I saw a person with principles telling you (a person without principles) the truth. Did it sting?”
Sorry, but I know JR and he is a very caring and “pricipled” person…you need to listen more and attack less, ksgrm.
I think we have learned a lot here.
I made a mark comparative of religions.
Two folks who call themselves religious in the Christian faith took offense.
They have called me a Nazi, a hater, etc.
I have called no names. I am not posting in anger. I am also not accusing and attacking. Sure signs of a poster who IS posting in anger.
And well said ksgrm. I work a lot with religious people; especially Catholics. The fact that I am not ‘one of them’ doesn’t deter us at all from supporting things like Catholic Charities; and they have never turned down my checks!
However I really don’t want my friends there running the government. I need them to be the conscience of that government.
Mary you took the statement of one man and tarred an entire religion. Do you not see the illogic of that statement.
If you think hatred is reserved for Christians then you have led a very sheltered life and I don’t see you that way.
I have never talked to anyone in the klan and therefore couldn’t tell you how their mind works.
I am white but in my Christian family we have two neices, one nephew, a new set of twin nieces and one on the way. All are bi-racial. All are loved by our family. No differences are made.
The left jumps to judgements too quickly.
Sorry, but I know JR and he is a very caring and “pricipled” person…you need to listen more and attack less, ksgrm.
Posted by: Mary Caruso | November 10, 2007 at 10:26 AM
Well Mary since I only know JR by his writings you won’t fault me for having a different perception of him that you do will you?
When visiting the holocaust museum in DC, I remember watching a video of a holocasut survivor talking about how nazis burned Jews alive on Xmas eve while singing Xmas carols before the bonfire.
If any of you ever have a chance to tour that museum, please do…man’s inhumanity to man really hits you hard in the face when you can visualize it. I was depressed for weeks afterward, but I wouldn’t trade that experience.
JR I just told you I was sorry I misinterpreted your ‘hatred’ and it was really love. Hope all is forgiven.
THANK YOU Mary!
Means alot coming from you.
It’s ironic. Maybe it is because I am on the outside looking in?
Mary is a Christian I could look on and find little fault. In her actions I mean.
And she isn’t a Christian.
“took the statement of one man and tarred an entire religion.”
Unfortunately we have also seen that with other religions and ‘no religion’. We need to isolate ALL the extremists from the mainstream of the religions.
Yet today evangelicals and other Christians take all sorts of crap for our support of God’s chosen people. (Israel)
And if Christians were involved in the holocaust, were they following the teachings of Jesus Christ, a Jew? Of course not. The Nazis were just thugs.
Bottom line is that this just more Christian bashing.
Mary I was just there last month and share your revulsion with what happened during the war. I thank God that the US realized this and intervened to save the Jews. We lost thousands of men before this battle was won but without the brave fighting men of the US it wouldn’t have happened.
That is why you and I see war differently. I see it as a necessary evil. In no way was the religion the Nazis demonstrated comparable to the Christian movement of today.
ksgrm, that was just one man…but I’ve met MANY like him…due to the fact that my life isn’t sheltered at all. My posts are not a generalizations of all Christians, but there are far too many who use the mask of Chritianity to justify their prejudice. I know many good and sincere Chritians who truly live their beliefs and walk the walk, and for them I have nothing but respect, but I do believe in the separation of church and state because that’s the only way Americans can truly be free to practice or not practice faith in God.
“I have never talked to anyone in the klan and therefore couldn’t tell you how their mind works.”
I have; I grew up with it around me. ALL of them considered themselves to be good God-fearing Christians.
See? Now outlander is doing it.
“The nazis were just thugs.”
No No a thousand times NO!The nazis were human beings.
If you make them other than human beings, we don’t learn. We don’t remember like we should.
And I agree with you ksgrm, sometimes war IS a necessary evil…but not the war we’re in right now. We need to pick and choose our battles a little more carefully…gotta go, the day is waiting. Good discussion!
A comment about Nazis and in defense of JR. We DO need to try to understand how ‘ordinary’ people could do what they did. How did a country that gave us so much in the way of art, science and culture give us Hitlar and the Holocaust? More recently how did Milosovich and Tujman rise in the balkans and commit their atrocities? And on and on …
Ben I agree with you. It is the extremist is all religions who cause most of the problems. Deep convictions don’t count in this description unless you are doing harm to others with opposing convictions.
I personally think abortion is wrong because I see it as taking anothers life. I have never demonstrated against it but don’t deny those who feel they should from doing it. I personally think that the recent parades held in San Francisco were wrong because they were held in public, there were children present and their attire or lack of it was appalling.
These are the things that will never be legislated. People will decide them outside the government.
In this you and I agree - government doesn’t have a place.
Um… Ok. Nazis were human beings who were thugs.
Or, lib speak…Reprogamming… Deep down nice people who exhibited really bad thuggish behavior? But not as bad as Christians.
According to the Court System, Atheism is a religion and perhaps being Secular as well.
It’s all about belief systems.
Mary, I would argue that those in the Nazi regime that claimed Christianity, did so under with a thinly veiled disguise.
Most of the despicable acts were committed by secularists who practiced religion of convenience, not Christianity.
Germans are very social people and that singing of “carols” around the bonfire was a sign of them being social not Christian.
Evidently, you have not be to Munich and seen thousands of drunk Germans singing Christmas Carols during the holiday season. Some of the men after the festivities would go to state sponsored “whore houses” while the rest would boast of their nationalism or favorite soccer team.
The word “Christ” and “compassion” never passed their lips and the thought commitment of a Christian life has never entered their secular lives.
I do believe you are mistaken Mary when assign such actions to true Christians.
Here’s more evidence of those nasty Curstians hookin up with Adolf cuz they loved him… and hatrified them Jews too of course.
Too words: Dietrich Bonhoeffer.
If you really want some shells to fire off at them Curstians, check out what ol’ Deet did during the WW2. Boy, you Curstians better start thinkin up your answers now!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dietrich_Bonhoeffer
More recently how did Milosovich and Tujman rise in the balkans and commit their atrocities? And on and on …
Posted by: Ben | November 10, 2007 at 10:42 AM
Ben I have my own opinion about how this has happened down through the ages. When a country loses their moral compass, no matter what the center of that compass is, they lose a sense of right and wrong. When everyone is allowed to assign their own rights and wrongs civilizations start to breakdown.
When there is no absolute wrong then who can condemn the beginnings of a Hitler, Milosovich, etc..? Eventually one will rise to power. It is historical. Always happens.
ksgrm - regards abortion; I would love to see those of us on both sides of the political devide work together to at least reduce it by reducing demand. I am ‘pro-choice’ but think abortion sucks. That is why I have supported the alternatives and will continue to do so.
“moral compass”
To me a critical component of that compass is the INDEPENDANT Church. Looking at Milosovich for example the State Church was part of the problem.
Ben, sure, ya betcha you’re right! Abortion DOES suck. It sucks the arms and legs and heads right off ‘o them babies. Is that why you doesn’t like it? And if so, what’s wrong with that anyways?
BenIf JR does not embarrass you, if you do not think JR is hateful, in his postings here, then you, yourself, have become rather blinded by your ideology.
Personally I work with and help support alternatives to girls who find themselves in this position. They are given a place to live, medical support and the freedom to take the time to make a decision they can live with. If that is abortion so be it, if not they do realize that adoption is a viable option. That is how I protest.
Someday Christian and non-Christians will realize that we share the same world and when we stop fighting and start sharing the responsibility for making our world better, we will all be better off for it.
They will know we are christians by our love — not by the size and magnitude of our charitable contributions!!
Ben I agree with you that there should be no state church. After all that is the foundation of this great country. But by the same token I don’t feel that Christian should be singled out and persecuted. That is a true sign of the deterioration of civilization. History has shown us this.
Wish I could stay but my grandson is in a Christmas program at school this afternoon and I have to run. He is soloing.
Paul - you and JR BOTH tend to be an embarrassment sometimes. If you do not see that about yourself “then you, yourself, have become rather blinded by your ideology”
CHas, They will know us by our works and by extension our love. Which bible are you reading?
ksgrm - solo vocal? Or instrument?
HAVE FUN!
Vocal - can hardly wait.
By their LOVE Ksgrm… God is LOVE, Ksgrm… Thats in any Bible you want to choose… Please read it, and stop jumping on my theology when you dont like it!! Just like you said we all need to do, upthread??? But I guess thats only when it doesnt include what YOU want to do!!
Oh yea, “And the greatest of these is LOVED” I Cor. 13:13
Have fum ksgrm. I’m outta here too - got a mountain of wood chils to move.
JR
Human beings can be monsters.
Human beings can be thugs.
Look up these words:
SociopathPsychopath
— However, you are getting it, only a little upside down.
Humans are a fallen race, as a whole.We are not perfect.The crucifixtion story is about failure AND redemption.The story is also about the envy of some religious leaders who happened to be Jewish.You know, actually, the ROMANS did all the dirty work. We dont have massive pograms of “anti-Italian” ferver, very often.
That envy or ignorance of Biblical religious leaders can now, also, be found in some religious leaders who do not understand the point of the whole Easter story.
Humans are prone to all manor of failure and vice. Therefore, when I hear leftists carry on about the sins or faults of America, or the sins or faults of religion or Christianity, I shake my head.
Western society, based on Judeo-Christian morality and law, vastly improved the lives of the vast majority of people.
Where we had our failings, that very culture, or people who believed, deaply, in faith and American values, rescued us from our mistakes.
Americans are, basically, just like everyone else around the world.
It is our constitution and our faith that makes us the envy of the world.
This is why everyone else comes here!
Econ Paul?
I’m sorry. I missed the part where the thread became about me.
I won’t bite. Good on Ben for not doing so either.
And I have to go.
Ben may have said it best. Religion is best as a conscience for government, not an agent in it.
“I thought Christians had no fear of death. So why didn’t they stand up to Hitler and act in a Christ like manner by refusing to shed innocent blood?”
“There is a difference” I pointed out, “In a democracy the people have some say in the matter through their elected representatives, and in the United States only Congress can declare war,”.
“Oh that’s all well and good, but voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders, that is easy.All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked and denounce the peacemakers for lack of Patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same in every country“.
From an interview conducted by Gustave Gilbert a German speaking intelligence officer and Psychologist given access to Nazi Reich marshal Herman Goering at the Nuremberg trials.
http://www.snopes.com/quotes/goering.asp
JM I have asked the same question about how we ended up in Iraq?
But Econ is historically correct, between the great depression and the sanctions place on Germany after WWI. The Germany people were both looking for a savior and also someone to blame. Hitler provided both for them. Hitler was the classic example of Leo Strauss’s concept of a prefect leader, amoral yet using the noble concepts of religion and patriotism to control the masses. Though I think Econ’s understanding of JR is off, Overall concepts of real justice is as much a driving force as Patriotism or Religion. And often draws hard lines in what is right and wrong, Econ’s lines and JR lines are often different. What Econ sees as “class envy” in JR, is simply JR’s concept of a demand for fair treatment and to stop hypocritical actions.It is hypocritical to say that other religions are bad for killing when your own religion has a common history. President Bush told the Ambassador from Saudi Arabia that he was on a “holy crusade” in the middle East. So where would Moslems get the idea that we are at war with their religion?
As we approach Armistice Day we should take heed of a sentence I read in a history book about the armistace. “On the 11th hour of the 11th day of the 11th month World War One came to an end. And World War Two began.”
We should learn from the failures of the armistace and the successes of Marshall Plan at the end of WW2. And, just mayb, how we might replicate Marshall elsewhere in the world.
It is hypocritical to say that other religions are bad for killing when your own religion has a common history. President Bush told the Ambassador from Saudi Arabia that he was on a “holy crusade” in the middle East. So where would Moslems get the idea that we are at war with their religion?
Posted by: writerdog | November 10, 2007 at 11:21 AM
You do realize the Crusades were actually in response to centuries of Muslim led attacks don’t you?
And what religious group took credit for 911?
And what religion of what nations actually cheered the results of 911?
Kansas, you refer to American law to show that Atheism was the official religion of the Soviet Union? That pretty much sums up the reason why you are ignorant on the subject. If you want to know about American law you might have looked at the laws and realized that the cases showed that Atheists have the same legal protections as religious people, not that Atheism is a religion.
Yes, you are ignorant about the subject and being secular (like America is) doesn’t equate with Atheism.
“And what religion of what nations actually cheered the results of 911?”
Oh, that would be Christianity. Fred Phelps, Troy Newman, Jerry Falwell, Pat Robertson and any other fundy willing to politically capitalize on the event to promote their religious agenda.
“And what religious group took credit for 911?”
I seem to recall CHRISTIANS like Fred Phelps and Pat Robertson cheering and saying it was God’s punishment of this country.
Yes, you are ignorant about the subject and being secular (like America is) doesn’t equate with Atheism.
Posted by: Doug | November 10, 2007 at 12:30 PM
Well, at least I give sources of scholars on the subject.
You give unreferenced opinion and claim somehow to be an expert over the experts I referenced.
I get it, Libs can just write stuff and it is true, without qualifying their opinion with sources.
Never mind, my bad - I didn’t realize you were a world class expert on the matter.
Maybe even a few spaced out teens who thought they were watching a video game, and they got points for hitting the buildings?? LOL Just kidding, I think??
And what religious group took credit for 911?”
I seem to recall CHRISTIANS like Fred Phelps and Pat Robertson cheering and saying it was God’s punishment of this country.
Posted by: Ben | November 10, 2007 at 12:35 PM
Are you sure about that?
I recall seeing on TV all the Islamic nations after watching the video, cheering and dancing in the street.
Besides, I never said “individuals” I was referring to entire nations.
Kansas, ummmm, the court cases you referenced were all involved in USA court cases, and not defining anything having to do with the Soviets (who dont exist anymore anyway)
SCOTUS has never defined Atheism as a religion, because nobody has ever claimed it is a religion… In fact, it is not even anti-relilgion, but an absence of a GOD(S).
I get so tired of hearing the Right Wing’s defense of Atheism as a religion. I have no clue why they want to do this, except to make some case against those who insist on the rightness of separation of Church and State, just as Jefferson correctly identified in his letter…
Kansas - I doubt you saw “nations” dancing; you saw groups of “individuals.” You are doing what you complain about others doing - blaming entire peoples for the actions of certain segments of their populations.
Obviously citizens of nations that have been attacked by the US (either directly or by proxy) would be much more likely to celebrate an attack on their enemy; just as we would be.
“All” the Islamic nations? I don’t think so. Although today that would be infiniely more likely. Remember, we had a number of Islamic nations on OUR side in Afghanistan - including our enemy IRAN.
Evidently Chas you failed to read the links I provided. I’m not going to bother going over all that again. If you want to claim to know than the experts I referenced, be my guest.
Ben, now your kibitzing the cards dealt out.
“…In our lifetimes we haven’t seen Christian killing thousands…”
“ksgrm” — The Catholics and the Presbyterians of Northern Ireland most certainly killed thousands.
And while Nazism most certainly was not “christian,” Hitler’s politics of scapegoating Jews for Germany’s problems most certainly resonated with Catholics and Lutherans who actively and tacetly subscribed to the “Jews killed Christ” theology.
The Southern Baptist denomination was established in large part for “christians” to prolong the institution of slavery, a form of economic holacaust.
Religions are an evolved form of tribalism. Part of your faith in *your* god, or *your* scripture, or *your* denomonation, or *your* rituals subtly (and often, not so subtly) serve to establish *your* religion as superior to others. That belief implicitly makes those non-believers in your faith second-class citizens.
In a Comparative Religion course I took, the idea was floated that institutional religions tend to go though periods of intollerance. About 1500 years into Christianity, the Spanish Inquisition made heresy a spectator sport. About 1500 years into Islam, there’s a movement among some Muslims to create comparable oppression among “infidels.”
In 1300 years or so, look out for the Mormons.
Kansas, the references are the own court cases you provided. I take it you have never actually read them. Don’t waste my time with your ignorance and actually read what you reference.
You still haven’t provided me with any reference Doug.
However, you appear to claim expertise without providing credential or sources.
Calling people ignorant with out established expertise or source is an empty argument on your part and shows lack of courage in a debate.
Monkeyhawk, true enough about the Southern Baptist of old.
However, the nearly 17 million members of the Southern Baptist faith today do not resemble the Southern Baptists of the pre Civil War and Civil War era.
To associate todays Baptists with misdeeds of the past is like saying that the Catholics of today are just like those during the 1500s, which they are not.
“…In our lifetimes we haven’t seen Christian killing thousands…”
“ksgrm” — The Catholics and the Presbyterians of Northern Ireland most certainly killed thousands.
Posted by: MonkeyHawk | November 10, 2007 at 12:57 PM
How old are you Monkey. I don’t remembr that in my lifetime.
On the other hand, “Kansas” –
The fundamentalist movement is more or time in synch with protestantism reaching the 1500-year-old heresy movement of the Roman Catholic Church. Evangelical fundamentalist are, in their own way, just as anti-science as the Pope was against Galileo and Copernicus. Go further back in time and the Pharisees of Jesus’ era were essentially fundamentalist (and, thereby, intollerant) religionists.
It comes down to a strong case to be made that religion per se isn’t the problem, but *fundamentalism* just might be. Under the pretense of having more or greater faith, fundies actually reveal thier fears that *they* might not be better than infidels. I mean, shouldn’t an omniscient, omnipotent *god* be able to hold His own against some mere mortal who prays differently than the fundies think is correct? Fundamentalism — Christian or Jewish or Islamic or Druidism — is a manifestation of *lack of faith.*
How old are you, “Baldy?”
Never heard of what they call in Northern Ireland, “The Troubles?”
It was in the papers.
Baldy, you arent familiar with all of the killings in Northern Ireland in most of our lifetimes?? It’s been happening as long as I can remember… The IRA is certainly a killing machine! And terrorist too, even though NONE of our administrations in my memory have ever suggested we invade Northern Ireland, to wipe out the war on terror in Ireland…
Great point MonkeyHawk!! Absolutely great!!
The Christians of Serbia and Croatia killed tens of thousands; perhaps hundreds of thousands during the “Fifth Balkans War” of the 1980s-90s. Mnay of those they killed were each other; the Serbs also targeted the last major Jewish community in Europe (in Sarajevo).
Baldy - I remember the last years of the “troubles” in Ireland - in my lifetime. I also remember the lynchings ‘down south’
For somebody who wondered what LOVE is, try this >>>>
What Love means to a 4-8 year old . . .
Slow down for three minutes to read this. It is so worth it. Touching words from the mouth of babes.
A group of professional people posed this question to a group of 4 to 8 year-olds, ‘What does love mean?’
The answers they got were broader and deeper than anyone could have imagined. See what you t hink:
‘When my grandmother got arthritis, she couldn’t bend over and paint her toenails anymore.
So my grandfather does it for her all the time, even when his hands got arthritis too. That’s love.’
Rebecca- age 8
‘When someone loves you, the way they say your name is different.
You just know that your name is safe in their mouth.’
Billy - age 4
——————————————————————————–
‘Love is when a girl puts on perfume and a boy puts on shaving cologne and they go out and smell each other.’
Karl - age 5
——————————————————————————–
‘Love is when you go out to eat and give somebody most of your French fries without making them give you any of theirs.’
Chrissy - age 6
——————————————————————————–
‘Love is what makes you smile when you’re tired.’
Terri - age 4
——————————————————————————–
‘Love is when my mommy makes coffee for my daddy and she takes a sip before giving it to him, to make sure the taste is OK.’
Danny - age 7
——————————————————————————–
‘Love is when you kiss all the time. Then when you get tired of kissing, you still want to be together and you talk more.
My Mommy and Daddy are like that. They look gross when they kiss’
Emily - age 8
——————————————————————————–
‘Love is what’s in the room with you at Christmas if you stop opening presents and listen.’
Bobby - age 7 (Wow!)
——————————————————————————–
‘If you want to learn to love better, you should start with a friend who you hate,’
Nikka - age 6
(we need a few million more Nikka’s on this planet)
——————————————————————————–
‘Love is when you tell a guy you like his shirt, then he wears it everyday.’
Noelle - age 7
——————————————————————————–
‘Love is like a little old woman and a little old man who are still friends even after they know each other so well.’
Tommy - age 6
——————————————————————————–
‘During my piano recital, I was on a stage and I was scared. I looked at all the people watching me and saw my daddy waving and smiling.
He was the only one doing that. I wasn’t scared anymore.’
Cindy - age 8
——————————————————————————–
‘My mommy loves me more than anybody. You don’t see anyone else kissing me to sleep at night.’
Clare - age 6
——————————————————————————–
‘Love is when Mommy gives Daddy the best piece of chicken.’
Elaine-age 5
——————————————————————————–
‘Love is when Mommy sees Daddy smelly and sweaty and still says he is handsomer than Robert Redford.’
Chris - age 7
———————————————————