Setting aside serious concerns about the misapplication of the death penalty, a number of recent studies have concluded that executions save lives — though these conclusions are being hotly debated. The New York Times reports that the “studies, performed by economists in the past decade, compare the number of executions in different jurisdictions with homicide rates over time — while trying to eliminate the effects of crime rates, conviction rates and other factors — and say that murder rates tend to fall as executions rise.†The studies estimate that executing one inmate can prevent three to 18 murders.
But critics contend the studies’ methodology is flawed and that there aren’t enough executions and other data to create a correlation with crime trends. They contend that crime could also decrease if we took the amount of money spent on capital cases and executions and put it into crime prevention.
Posted by Phillip Brownlee
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68 Comments
It also cuts down on the individual global warming imprint of housing and feeding these monsters.
A little less methane from these killers, will allow another cow to live to produce me a T Bone or Ribeye.
Shock it to em!!!
So then Texas should have the lowest per capita murder rate?
“The studies estimate that executing one inmate can prevent three to 18 murders.”
So the death penalty really is a deterrent to murder. Makes it hard to argue against when one execution can prevent 3 to 18 other murders.
Given the findings in error with some long accepted crime solving techniques, we best be very VERY sure and reserved in application of the death penalty. Even when we are SURE of guilt there are other things to consider.
Dennis Rader is guilty. No question about it at all.
But I don’t want him strapped to a gurney and let to go to sleep.
I want experts in mental health picking his brain 16 hours a day to see what the monster is made of and so maybe prevent other monsters.
Tim McVeigh? They should have dragged him into the street and put a bullet through his head right after his last appeal. Ditto the Carr brothers.
I want experts in mental health picking his brain 16 hours a day to see what the monster is made of and so maybe prevent other monsters. J R
This from the guy who ran a crusade against torture.
Government interference in one’s personal life is arbitrary, it just matters if J R finds it acceptable or not.
It’s only expensive because the Anti’s make it so.They make it expensive then cry about how expensive it is.Genius!
If executions were a deterrent to other murders, then it would seem that holding very public and spectacular executions would enhance the deterrent effect.
We need all of the future killers to see what happens if they take a life. Also, would in not make more sense to make sure the application of the death penalty is swift? The would be killer should know that his/her death is soon to follow.
I’m incredibly skeptical of this, but I’m open to the idea. It appears the studies are by economists, applying economic analysis tools.
Even if true, this is not purely an economic issue. There are fundamental issues at play here.
Full disclosure: I hope I never handle a capital case, and while I do not have legal/constitutional objections to the death penalty in principle, I do not think having a death penalty, in the current legal environment, is a particularly wise policy.
If executions were a deterrent to other murders, then it would seem that holding very public and spectacular executions would enhance the deterrent effect.Posted by: Poster Boy
I’ve been saying that for years PB.
If Timothy McVeigh had been executed on Pay-Per-View, the government would have made millions! Advertising would have made big money, popcorn growers, the beer industry, and the softdrink and snack businesses would too!
I’d venture to guess – even a few churches would join in, so they could pray away, the sin of murdering a murderer.
Early American saw this. Public executions were a money making event.
Would certainly help defray the operating costs of death row.
For me these questions about executions saving lives or preventing crime don’t matter.
It is punishment.
If it happens to also do good on the side like lowering crime or murder then that is an added bonus.
As one who has assisted in, but not personally handled as the lead counsel, a capital case, I hope you, GMC, never handle one. There is much involved in both sides of such a case, and until one has been there, there is no way to know the stress, etc. involved; and this is just on the attorneys.
While I recognize that the death penalty is an appropriate punishment in certain cases, I’m personally not in favor of it. No surprise there, huh, given my defense counsel orientation.
I’m troubled by the potential for execution of an innocent person. This is a real issue for me, and one with which I grapple personally. I’m not sure that having a death penalty is a wise policy move given the current legal environment either, GMC.
left out “defense of” before “a capital case” in the first sentence of my 2:49 PM post, supra.
I support capital punishment primarily BECAUSE of the “plea bargain” effect.
I don’t care if we are “fare” to all murderers.
Those who know they are going to face life in prison, no matter what, have no reason to turn on or “rat out” other killers.
We need the risk of the death penalty in order to get information out of these hardened criminals.
Don’t some serial killers confess in plea bargin deals so they can avoid the death penalty?
Like BTK?
NathanI have trouble with the “punishment” portion of “capital punishment”.
Vengence belongs to God.
I think that the death penalty is justified as a deterent, and as a method to force the cooperation of convicted killers.
I also think it is very justified in terms of self defense and the defense of others.
Those who have shown their ability to kill, in the past, are very likely to kill again, in prison or out of prison.
Max:
FYI – CP was never on the table for BTK; his crimes were committed at a time when Kansas did hot have a death penalty.
I don’t THINK that is entirely accurate GMC.
Didn’t he kill his last victim after capital punishment was re instated? And since it was only the one victim he wasn’t elgible?
Thanks GMC. Wasn’t sure about that case, but I bet there are other examples where a plea to guilty was made in order to save the murderers hide from the chair.
JR -
Perhaps. As I understood it, his last crime of at least the ones charged, and therefore perhaps provable, were prior to the reinstatement of the death penalty. I could be wrong, however; I’m operating off the top of my head, between letters and subpoenas.
Econ101,
It is not vengeance when it is administered by an impartial justice system in the interest of society.
Vengeance would be me killing the person who wronged me outside of the justice system.
Max:
No question, that is the case.
NathanMy philosophy is that convicted murderers forfeit most of their rights.
If we view CP as purely “punishment” then this whole game of comparing who gets executed and who does not works against CP.
If you see CP as right of the state, for its own protection, the the state has the right to execute in any arbitrary fashion it sees fit.
I dont like the liberal arguments of: “this guy got executed and this guy didnt, and what this guy did was much worse!”
I don’t care about being “fair” to murderers.
Make capital punishment the right of the states, for the preservation and protection of their citizens.
That way, the net result of “plea bargains” will not matter.
The state does not “have to” assert its CP right, in every case, just to make things “fair”.
I don’t think the death penalty is a deterrent at all. And I don’t believe all murders deserve death. If we use the death penalty, it should be reserved for the most harshest of criminals.
I also think it’s far too expensive and the liklihood of executing an innocent person is too high. So just make life=life, and treat them as if they are on death row.
I can’t say one way or the other, and the survey pretty much admits the same thing. What the H E double toothpicks is “3 to 18%”. Are you kidding me, that’s no statistic. That’s like saying “I might die some day!” DUH!
Never the less, we’ve fried alot of innocent people over the years. It can’t be denied. When the DNA testing came about, they went back and retested evidence and found we put to death dozens of innocent people.
It’s not hard to get railroaded! Especially in Kansas, where people are stupid enough to believe “the cops are the good guys” They aren’t, they are just people trying to do a job, and who are evaluated on the statistics of the outcome of their labors. They are looking at convictibility, not probability of guilt, yet alone guilt beyond a reasonable doubt. They know they are going to get jurys who are naturally inclined to side with the prosecution. DA’s have come forward after retirement and admited they feel they put away innocent people, and even gotten people sentenced to death.
Let’s see — We convict somebody of murder… sentence them to death… And then, 23 years later, we tell them, OK, its your turn now… Jump up here on this gurney, and get it over with! Yea, right… a whole lot of meaning to that one… C’mon folks… with all of the errors… with all of the arguments against the effectiveness… like in Texas…
Let’s face it, the death penalty is no deterrent at all in Texas!!
Maybe Texas murderers are just a hrd headed bunch, or all crazy wackos… But it doesnt lower the murder rate in Texas, and most likely not in Florida…
Now, Maybe in Montana, or Idaho, or Utah… MAYbe!! LOL
I disagree with the death penalty, however I do think the automatic death sentence for killing a police officer does save lives.
At least I think there is an automatic death sentence in that case.
The person to be executed has been locked-up for years and whether or not they are executed is immaterial.
You might as well compare the sale of used cars to people being executed.
That was sort of my point, Ed…
If the State is so blasted certain it got the conviction right, why is there all of those years of appeals, and waiting?? Speed it up, if they are going to do it..
And why do we use lethal injection? To make killing less ugly?? or less gruesome?? or more enticing to a public that has qualms with executions??
For all we know the murder rate in Texas could be 3, 4, 5 times greater than it is if there were no capital punishment.
They do things very different down there you know.
Try showing where there is some kind of correlation between the number of executions in Texas, and a decrease in capital crime??
Not even most of the Texans I know of would go along with that… Their attitude in Texas is basically, “Well, he just needed killin” LOL And I know of a lot of them who are very dissatisfied with death by lethal injection!!
As I’ve stated elsewhere in this forum, I’m certain there are crimes and criminals that deserve summary execution. But every time the subject comes up, I become more certain that we are not the people or a society worthy of taking another person’s life.
The issue seems to bring out so much blood-lust. Calls for public executions, pay-for-view TV, make ‘em suffer! Good lord, look at yourself.
So many of you avid death penalty proponents claim you believe in the divinity of a man who was executed unjustly. At least when I admit there is justification for capital punishment, I’m not turning my back on the teachings of my “God.”
Everybody’s gonna die. Not everyone is gonna live every day of their life in a 6′x8′ cell. The latter seems like worse punishment for the recipient, however the executioners might get off on dispensing revenge disguised as “justice.”
Count me as a vote FOR capital punishment – sometimes. For example, BTK and the Carr brothers. One aspect to consider is the safety of prison personnel and other prisoners. Someone with ‘nothing to lose’ can kill with impunity. So, I don’t know if capital punishment prevents murder I CAN be sure the recidivism rate is zero.
Wonder how many CP cases were the result of the metallurgy analysis of the lead in the victim to the lead in the accused’s ammo box? If it’s known beyond a doubt, then execute them. Using the ‘reasonable’ doubt standard, seems a bit precarious and maybe specious.
Actually, I think most rational people would not be considered irrational to have as one of their worst fears, being accused of a murder, even being completely innocent. The Judicial system leaves much to be desired in my opinion.
It probably doesn’t save many lives but it certainly is cheaper than feeding and housing these monsters for the rest of their lives.
Actually, I’ve always read that it cost more to execute them, as compared to life in prison.
i do believe you are right, Phantom
One more time, before it gets blown all out of proportion… BTK was not ELIGIBLE for the Death Penalty – due to the time frame in which the murders were committed. Kansas did not have a death penalty at that point in time! I hope nobody will want proof of that… It is just plain historical FACT…
Who cares if it is a deterrent?
That may be one of several advertised benefits of CP, but it is not of great importance to me.Maybe it is a deterrent when it involves a law enforcement officer in a state where killing a cop mandates CP. But whether it is or is not a deterrent is not a basis for ending CP, nor was that the point of the lead thread.
If the studies cited in the lead article arent based on faulty statistics, then the obvious answer is to increase the number of crimes for which CP is acceptable punishment LOL /sarcasm off
Funny, the phony preacher who is pro-abortion is against capital punishment.
If one execution of a murderer can prevent 3 to 18 more murders, we should quickly line-up everyone on death row, and get it over with.
They say the electric chair and lethal injection is cruel and unusual, then let’s just line up 12 executioners with 44 Magnum Smith & Wessons and put 12 bullets in the murderers head at the same time.
He won’t feel a thing.
Wow Max — blood lust!!
BTW Max — Death Penalty is one I have not actually decided for CERTAIN on — I just think the way it is done needs a LOT of work! And we need to stop making so many stupid mistakes in using the death penalty… I also complain about how LONG it takes from “Guilty” to “This Man/Woman is Dead”
Blood makes the grass grow.Kill! Kill!
At this point in time, I tend to lead towards a moratorium on the Death Penalty, to see what can be done about the screw ups we have sitting on Death Row… Read John Grisham’s “Innocent Man” and you will maybe see what I mean.
I think the book is $6.95(paper) at your favorite book store.
Grisham writes fictional novels, right?
“Kitrell” –
Grisham is a story-teller with a rich and deep background in how law is practiced and “justice” is administered in the United States.
“An Innocent Man” is non-fiction. But it’s a helluva story and Grisham tells it well.
It’s not fiction, perhaps, because if he’d fictionalized the story no one in the world would believe it.
There’s an old movie in which Humphrey Bogart says, “The difference between true life and fiction is, fiction has to make sense.”
When you read “An Innocent Man,” you’ll be appalled and angry at the lengths some institutions and individuals will go to dispense injustice.
You got that right M H!! Good review… I still get angry when I thionk about what they put those two guys through!!
Fiction is made up crap, which makes you touchy feely people squirm.
Screw that!
If found guilty by a jury, hang em high.
I’m taking off my bra and my panties. naked truth from here.
Thanks, “Pat Herron” for your truly patriotic faith in the validity of juries.
I assume you approve of the $12 Million jury decision against McDonald’s in the coffee-scalding case?
I presume you’ve dedicated your life to helping O.J. Simpson “find the *real* killers?”
Why bother with appeals? Why bother with giving defendants legal counsel? Why bother with trials! “Pat Herron” should be the only voice of “justice,” and that voice says, “Hang ‘em high!”
Read “An Innocent Man,” “Pat Herron.” Even if your lips get tired. Have a grown-up around to help you sound out the big words.
It’s not “made up crap,” is real. If the truth doesn’t make you squirm, you’re less-than-human and so, we should be allowed to hang you high with impunity.
Spank me!
I see the liberals have decided that because my opinion does not match up with their selective approval process and is outside their approved norms: They steal my NIC and post behind me.
Two things:
You are as low as anyone you decry for NIC stealing – there is no justification for any reason.
What goes around always comes around.
I admit it, I believe in the tooth fairy.
Fiction = truth = convenient
Executing a killer certainly ensures he will never ever kill anybody again.
“”"If executions were a deterrent to other murders, then it would seem that holding very public and spectacular executions would enhance the deterrent effect.
We need all of the future killers to see what happens if they take a life. Also, would in not make more sense to make sure the application of the death penalty is swift? The would be killer should know that his/her death is soon to follow.”"”
You are right. I favour public and/or televised executions. It certainly deterred killers and horse thieves in old Dodge City when they had public hangings. My take on the death penalty is this- as long as I am 100% sure of guilt, I would not have a problem handing it out. But the certainty of guilt would have to be 100%. As a juror, I could convict and give a life sentence if I were 90% certain of guilt but not a death senetence. I have to be able to live with my decision.
In England, during the era of public hangings, it was common that pickpockets robbed the people in the crowd. Pickpocketing was the most common crime for which people were hanged.
Nobody murders anyone with the idea they’re gonna be caught. They think they’re gonna get away with it. There’s no deterrant penalty to murder (unless, you’re ready to step forward and admit the *only* reason you don’t murder people is that it’s against the law; if it were legal, just how many people *would* you kill?).
When people pop off tropes such as “execution assures the culprit won’t commit another murder,” I think, hell, execution would assure another vandal won’t spray paint another brick wall. When people revert to Old Testament “eye for an eye” rhetoric, it seems odd that a robber isn’t sentenced to having to allow a convenience store clerk steal his stuff.
If we are going to progress as a species, we’ve got to reassess this whole “justice” thing. Revenge is undertandable, but is it just? Deprivation of freedom seems logical, but is it enough? Rehabilitation is admirable, but is it realistic?
Charlie Manson should probably be taken out into the street and shot like the mad dog he is. But the so-called “Manson Girls,” have anguished over their crimes for three decades now. Does anyone really believe they are going to go out and murder more people?
Just what are we attempting, as a society, to achieve with our justice system?
I would have paid to see Timothy Mcveigh fry.
Big bowl of buttery popcorn, case of beer, and all my friends and neighbors invited too.
As I’ve said, I really don’t care if it is not a deterent. If you take a life, you fry.
There is absolutely no reason we cannot make some revenue off executions. I wonder how much the photographer who took the photo of Lincolns’ assassins was paid?
I wonder how much that photo earned?
There is nothing wrong with society for desiring justice to be served to those who rape and/or murder innocent women, children, police officers, and 7-11 employees for 50 bucks in the cash register.
I think the human race will survive without these animals held in cages. And it is reassuring to know they will never kill again.
We could have capital punishment for trolls, they’d never troll again.
“The Phantom” –
Right! And people who bring toddlers into grown-up restaurants!
Hang ‘em all!
;-)
Phantom.
I’d vote for that! As long as it is on pay-per-view.
Today would be great. Watch em fry or get juiced while eating my apple pie.
“”"There’s no deterrant penalty to murder (unless, you’re ready to step forward and admit the *only* reason you don’t murder people is that it’s against the law; if it were legal, just how many people *would* you kill?). “”"
The facts show otherwise. If it was OK to kill, you would have just what you have in Iraq and some third world countries like Dafur where armed thugs and gangs roam the streets killing people and taking what they want. The only reason many of us do not kill people is because we don’t wish to go to jail. I would not kill anybody now but in my past I will openly admit there were a few people in my life I was mad enough at that I would have seriously considered it if it were an option. And many people will tell you that if they are honest.
I think alot of people wouldn’t murder someone because it is against their faith to do so as well.
We will not give up our God-given right to capital punishment.
What’s this?
Our one note poster parkay deviates from his constant pursuit to BAN abortion in order to defend capital punishment?
parkay? seriously? You should seem some counseling.
And just how is capital punishment a “God given” right?
Who gets to interpret for God? You?
Wouldn’t that make YOU God? You know, since God hasn’t audibly or in any other way weighed in?
I’ll go along with the death penalty if:1. Cases aren’t automatically closed after executions.2. Any prosecutor or police officer who manufactures evidence, withholds exculpatory evidence or commits perjury in a capital case is subject to capital punishment himself.3. All defendants in capital cases will draw counsel from the same pool and attorneys will be paid the same regardless of the defendant’s income or social standing.4. When the inevitable mistakes occur, The prosecutor and governor must go, unarmed and without the protections of law, and apologize to the family of the executed innocent, tell them what they will personally do to make amends and hope they survive the encounter.